How did babies count?

0:00 Welcome to Philosophy is not boring by Kidopoly.com. I'm Mira. And I'm Finn. Before we dive in today, a big hello to seven-year-old Penelope in Harden in the UK.

0:12 Hi Penelope! We are so glad you are wondering about big questions with us today.

0:17 If you haven't already, tap follow wherever you're listening so you never miss an episode.

0:23 Hey Mira, do you remember what it was like being a tiny baby? Definitely not. Why?

0:29 What do you think you were doing back then?

0:33 I don't remember it either. I just imagine it was mostly drinking milk, napping, and staring at the ceiling.

0:39 That is what a lot of people think. But what if your tiny baby brain was already working super hard? What if it was figuring out the secret rules of the universe?

0:50 The secret rules? Like what? How to get extra snacks?

0:56 Well, that is definitely a good skill. But I mean things even deeper than snacks. Today, we are exploring a massive question about the human mind. The big question is: can babies count?

1:08 Babies, but babies just sleep and cry. They don't know math. You have to be taught math in school.

1:15 Well, for thousands of years, philosophers like John Locke believed exactly that. They thought that when we were born, our minds are like a blank piece of paper, a totally blank slate.

1:27 A blank slate, like an empty whiteboard, and we have to learn every single thing from scratch. Exactly.

1:34 Think about a computer that just came out of the box with zero programs installed. The idea was that everything you know, like what is up and down or what numbers are, has to be taught to you by the world.

1:48 That kind of makes sense. I didn't know how to ride a bike until someone showed me. I wasn't born knowing how to do it.

1:55 Right, but other thinkers argued that we must come into the world with some built-in software, some basic rules already installed so we can make sense of things.

2:06 And one of the biggest debates was about math. So how do you find out if a baby knows math? You can't just give them a math test. They can't even hold a pencil.

2:16 True, but in 1992, a researcher named Karen Wynne at the University of Arizona came up with a brilliant way to test them. She tested babies who were just five months old.

2:30 Five months old? They can't even sit up by themselves yet. How did she ask them a question?

2:36 By using something called looking time. Researchers figured out that babies will look at something normal for a little bit, but they will stare much longer at something that surprises them.

2:47 Oh, like if I saw a dog reading a newspaper. I would stare at it way longer than just a normal dog. Exactly.

2:55 So Karen Wynne decided to show the babies a math problem and see if they would stare when the answer was wrong.

3:02 Okay, how do you show a baby a math problem without a blackboard?

3:05 Picture this. The baby is sitting safely on their parents' lap, looking at a tiny, colourful puppet stage.

3:13 Okay, I'm pretending I'm the baby. I'm very cute and very curious.

3:19 A researcher reaches out and places one Mickey Mouse toy onto the centre of the little stage. The baby looks at it.

3:27 Got it, one Mickey Mouse.

3:29 Then, a small screen folds up to hide the toy from the baby's view. So I can't see the toy anymore, but I know it's back there. Exactly! Next, the researcher's hand comes out again, picks up a second Mickey Mouse toy, and moves behind the screen. The hand leaves the second toy there and comes back out empty.

3:51 Okay, so the math in my baby brain is. There was one toy, they added one toy. There should be two toys behind that screen.

4:00 Right, but here is the sneaky part. While the screen was up, a hidden researcher reached through a secret door in the back and quietly pulls one toy away.

4:12 A secret trapdoor? That is so sneaky.

4:15 Then the screen drops. The baby is staring at the stage, expecting to see two toys, but they only see one.

4:24 Wait, how do we know what they expected? Did they gasp like I just did?

4:29 They didn't gasp, but they did something just as powerful. They stared. In fact, they stared for significantly longer at the one toy than they did in tests where the screen dropped to reveal two toys.

4:44 Whoa, so their tiny brains actually did the math. One plus one does not equal one. So they stared because they knew it was wrong.

4:52 That is exactly what Karen Wynne concluded. It looked like these tiny infants had a built-in sense of number. They were basically doing basic addition.

5:01 Take that, John Locke, and your blank slate. We are born with math installed in our brains.

5:08 Well, not so fast, Finn. This is where science gets really interesting. Because good scientists love to test things from different angles. This finding is actually debated. Wait, debated? But they stared. You just said they stared. They definitely stared. But what the staring actually means is the hard part.

5:30 Some later studies had a really tough time repeating the exact same result, and other scientists started to wonder if the babies were actually counting or if they were doing something else. What else could they be doing?

5:43 It's literally one plus one.

5:45 Well, imagine you put a chocolate chip cookie in your pocket. Later you reach in and pull out a carrot.

5:53 I would be very surprised. And very disappointed. Nobody wants a pocket carrot. Exactly.

6:01 But ask yourself, would you be doing math in that moment? Or are you just tracking an object? Like, I put a specific thing here, the thing changed. I am surprised.

6:12 Oh, I see. So some scientists think they aren't thinking, the number two is required here. They are just thinking, hey, where is the other thing I was looking at? Exactly.

6:23 It's a huge open question. Are they using a true sense of number or just tracking amounts and noticing a magic trick?

6:31 Nobody knows for sure. I actually love that nobody knows for sure. It makes being human feel like a mystery. It really does.

6:39 And whether they are doing true math or just tracking objects, think about what this means for you right now. What does it mean for me? It means that your mind is an incredible, active machine. Even before you had any words, before anyone ever sat you down to teach you how the world works, your brain was already looking for patterns.

7:02 It was already expecting the world to make sense.

7:05 That is actually amazing to think about. So when things feel unfair, or when I know someone is tricking me, that's like my oldest superpower kicking in.

7:15 Exactly. Noticing when things don't add up is one of the most basic things human minds do. You are built to search for the truth and to notice when something is missing.

7:27 I am a truth-seeking baby. Well, not a baby anymore. I'm seven, but you know what I mean.

7:34 I do. It means your curiosity is literally built into your DNA. Alright, how about a quick fun fact before our quiz?

7:44 Yes, hit me with the fun fact.

7:46 Did you know the word calculate comes from ancient Rome? It comes from the Latin word calculus, which literally means a small pebble. A pebble? Like a rock? Yes, because thousands of years ago, before calculators or even written numbers, people used little stones to keep track of amounts. They would count sheep by moving pebbles from one pile to another.

8:11 That is brilliant!

8:12 So they were doing literal rock math.

8:15 Alright, Finn, it is time for the quiz. Let's see how much you remember.

8:20 Okay, my brain is ready. I hope I don't need any pebbles for this.

8:26 First question. Who was the scientist that created the famous baby counting experiment? Next one. What year did she publish this famous study? Question three. What university was this researcher working at when she did the experiment? Here's number four. How old were the tiny babies that took part in the study?

9:02 Last question. When the wrong number of toys appeared on the stage, how did the babies show they were surprised? Great job! Let's go through the answers. The first answer is the scientist was Karen Wynne. For question two, she published her famous study in the year 1992. Number three, the answer is she was at the University of Arizona.

9:31 Question four. The babies in the experiment were just five months old. And the final answer is, the babies stared at the stage for a significantly longer time.

9:42 You know, I don't think I'll ever look at a baby the same way again. They might just be sitting there dropping toys, but inside their heads, they are basically tiny scientists testing the universe.

9:54 I completely agree, and I love that this is still an open question. Sometimes the best part of philosophy is realizing that we don't have everything figured out yet. Asking the hard questions is what makes exploring so much fun.

10:10 Totally. It makes me wonder what else babies know, that we just haven't figured out how to ask them yet.

10:16 If you loved wondering about this with us today, we would be so grateful if you could leave us a five-star review.

10:23 Yeah. Tell us what you think about babies doing math. Just scroll down in your app right now and tap the five stars. It really helps the show.

10:32 And please tap follow on this show wherever you're listening, so you never miss a new episode. Oh, and we have sister shows too. History and science is not boring, and maths is not boring. Go give those a listen and a follow as well.

10:47 They are super fun. And if you want a shout out on the show, or just want to tell us what you're thinking about, send us an email at hello at kidopoly.com.

10:56 Thanks for thinking with us today. See you next time on Philosophy is not boring. Bye, everyone. Keep wondering!