The $100K WoW Tournament Is Pure Chaos! ft. @TipsOutBaby | PULL 10 - Ep.8

0:00 I mean, I'm just trying to figure out how to answer this diplomatically. Um, no, damn it, Blizzard, answer my DMs, you know, like what the five.

0:28 Hey everybody, welcome to the Poll 10 Podcast. We are here with episode eight. Um, we've actually pre-recorded our interview with Tips Out, and we will be playing that shortly, but we just wanted to say uh hello and welcome. And um, you know, we are starting to uh get closer to launch, and we're very excited to get into the actual nitty-gritty of the game.

0:52 But as we do, um we want to remind you guys if you can uh hit us with a subscription or rate and review on any of the podcast things, that helps a bunch. So thank you so much. Um the uh response to the podcast has been really incredible, and and we're we're very excited to keep continue making these.

1:09 So um thank you so much. Um but yeah, Jurdy, how are you, bud?

1:15 I'm good, man. I'm I'm playing the beta. I'm I'm uh keeping a pro paladin uh what's the word? Not supporter, advocator, advocator right now. So I'm I'm I'm here, I'm here.

1:29 What does that mean, prop paladin advocator? Is there an issue that we're not aware of?

1:34 I'm the I'm the negative one this time. I was just correct about it. Okay. Um we are the we're just not happy with it. No offense to the designer. We're just offend, offend, offend, fight, yell at them. Yeah, I I'm I I have my videos at almost 50,000 views now, so hopefully get some more. Um talk to other people about it.

1:57 I complained probably every day at this point. So all I can do is keep voice my opinion until no one's playing it.

2:05 Uh otherwise, are you enjoying the beta?

2:09 Yes, Prot Warrior is very fun. Whoever whoever did that, man, that's a very complete class. Pront Warrior is so fun.

2:16 Um and Ren, how are you? I heard something kind of crazy happened.

2:21 Yeah, um my ankle's still kind of swollen. Um I just ran back.

2:26 What what happened?

2:27 Yeah. Uh so I ran the Chicago Marathon. Wow. My first ever marathon. So that's really cool. Uh I rolled my ankle at mile 13. So I didn't get to the med tent until mile 15. But you know, I went all the way there and I just wanted to finish, and I wasn't going to leave without finishing. So, you know, we got it done and we got the medal.

2:56 Congratulations, thank you. Thank you.

3:00 Dumb question. Well, how long's how long is a marathon?

3:03 A marathon is 26.2 miles or 42 kilometers.

3:08 And she rolled her ankle at mile 13. 13?

3:12 That's the halfway point. Yes.

3:16 I feel like if you were like crying and if you're if you're walking through the desert, you would have been dead. Like there's no.

3:22 In my head, I was like, you know, if I was walking through Azrah and it was like this, I don't know if I would make it. But again, it was like it was super humid, and there was barely any foliage. Well, there was some in the neighborhoods like halfway through, but yeah, a lot of shade was necessary. So thank you.

3:44 That's crazy. But it's definitely like a stop and smell the roses kind of thing. And that's how I feel like, you know, despite my speedrunning experience in WoW Classic or you know, WoW Reboot. Um, I feel like I'm representative of the casual players this time. So I feel like I'm definitely taking it easy, especially with the beta.

4:13 I don't want to burn myself out.

4:14 I have a feeling that's not gonna last very long until the game comes out for you.

4:18 Probably not. I'm gonna have the itch. Yeah.

4:22 It's so hard to play casually. When you when you've not played casually, it's hard to go like despite the swap. Yeah.

4:27 Yeah.

4:28 Um, okay, cool. So uh let's quickly throw to the tips out interview that Jurdy and I did yesterday, and then um we're going to uh from there start getting into some news and um yeah, so enjoy the tips out interview, the arena organizer uh mastermind. Hello everybody, welcome to episode eight of the Poll 10 Podcast.

4:54 Uh we're coming to you October 14th, which happens to be just a few days before the hotly debated, drama-filled, exciting tournament hosted by Tips Out. Uh and we are very excited to have him here to talk about uh the tournament, the beta, uh who he is and his history. Um this is gonna be a quick interview because Tips is a very busy man, so um, we're just gonna get right into the questions.

5:24 Uh Tips, how are you, man? Good, man. How you doing? Uh I'm really, really good. I'm very, very, very excited about uh the beta and this game. I can't believe we're actually like getting a classic plus. It's wild to me. Um yeah, it's been it's been wild. Uh what have you been uh getting up to on the beta?

5:48 I mean, first of all, I'm in I'm kind of in the same mindset you are. Like it is really surreal to think about this. I actually remember old Lore Drop, um, way back in the day, uh, the original cast of Classic Cast, this was like eight years ago, maybe one of our first episodes. Before I remember having uh a conversation with my fellow co-hosts, and we were talking about Classic Plus.

6:12 I don't know if S fans still remembers this, but we were talking about Classic Plus, and we were just like, bro, that'll never happen. Like, why would Blizzard ever do something like this? You know, their incentive structure is probably, you know, go into TBC, go into Wrath if Classic WoW is successful, then maybe just like just keep dropping expansions.

6:29 And you know, especially when you consider a lot of the you know internal obstacles and hurdles to produce a new game skew while you have the existing game going concurrently, and you've got a lot of talent on that team, like it's really hard to manage that just from like a business operations standpoint.

6:47 And yeah, super excited they did it. And in terms of what I've been doing on beta, believe it or not, I've probably played the beta the least out of like anybody. Um, I have a level 13 warrior, nice. I have a level 10 warlock, I think. Um, and I just haven't had a lot of time, but I have been watching, you know, mostly prepared for the tournament, but but watching duels and kind of keeping track of the content, the changes, you know, between classic WoW and Forever WoW, especially itemization changes.

7:14 So unfortunately, nothing exciting on the doing front uh in game, but you know, at the same time, I'm a little happy because I'm saving all those experiences for launch.

7:22 I'm kind of in the same boat where I'm keeping the beta kind of limited in terms of how much I'm getting into it. So um, but you you mentioned, you know, the the business side of Classic Plus. And uh I don't know if everybody uh is aware of all of the things you've got your fingers in. Would you kind of give us a little history about like where you come from and what you've uh been up to since you know classic launched?

7:48 And I mean it's been a it's been a lot of uh a lot of interesting things from you specifically, I think.

7:54 For sure. So I guess my background in gaming, maybe starting from there, like the games industry side. So I come from a completely different universe. Um and you know, for me, I was working basically on one career, and then you know, I always wanted to get into content creation, heavily inspired by I think it was summer of 2010.

8:16 I watched a video of Total Biscuit uh doing the cataclysm beta coverage of the work, I think it was the Wargan starting zone. And up until that up until that point in World of Warcraft, you basically had three types of WoW content creators. Number one, you had boss guide videos like Tank Spot, or uh I can't remember if Fat Boss had started by that point, but I think it was primarily Tank Spot.

8:39 You had PvP montages, you know, Clinda, Swifty, that that kind of thing. Or you had machinima, like you know, WoW Crendor and all the old school vanilla WoW machinimas that you guys remember, Danish, all the all those guys. So that's kind of that was what WoW content was. It was machinima, pvp montages, and boss guides.

8:58 Not super interesting to me personally, as like from a creator standpoint. Um, but then I watched this video, and all Total Biscuit was doing was he was essentially commenting on the Worgan starting zone, talking about what he was seeing, you know, talking about the game as a whole, and that was super interesting to me.

9:16 And uh, you know, rest in peace. I still think he was one of the best content creators ever. Um, but that was super interesting to me. And you know, from that moment in time, you know, mid-2010, I had it in my head that, dude, I would love to do this one day. Fast forward to classic announcement 2017.

9:33 Blizzard announces classic WoW BlizzCon. And in my head, I'm just like, dude, it's time. Like, if I'm if I'm ever gonna take this chance, it's now. This is my favorite game. You know, it I want to talk about WoW all day. This is what I want to do. I was playing WoW, I wanted to talk about WoW. So I became a content creator sometime at the end of 2017.

9:53 Uh, started primarily just talking about the game. I think some of my first videos were just talking about like the the design philosophies of classic, you know, talking about different dungeons, different interesting quests, why I thought it was cool, and and you know, what you sort of the secret sauce or trying to uncover the secret sauce of what the vanilla out devs were able to produce.

10:16 And, you know, did that for a little while, started streaming a few months after that. Um, you know, got into just the the YouTube streaming content creator world. And then I'd say the next big big milestone was in October of 2018, I believe. That's when Blizzard released the classic WoW demo. So it wasn't the beta, it was this like level 19 cap demo.

10:41 I think it was level 19 cap. Uh, and it was basically just like the starting zone and going into the barrens. And I can't even remember if you could access the other areas in the game. There might have been an invisible wall, but you know, don't take my word on that. It's been a while. Um, but when the demo got announced, I I just I wanted to put on a dueling tournament.

11:00 Why did I want to put on a dueling tournament? So back in OG Vanilla, uh, I started playing vanilla a day or two after launch. Yeah. One one of my friends in high school, uh Justin, if he's watching this, shout out to you, bro. Um, he his brother, him and his brother had accounts. My parents would not allow me to get WoW until later that summer, so summer 2005.

11:26 How old are you? And or what what range, what age range are we in?

11:33 Just to I was a freshman in high school.

11:35 I was a freshman in high school. That's right around where I'm at, too.

11:37 Yeah.

11:38 Yes. So where did we all hear about WoW? So we all heard we all we're all playing Warcraft 3 back in the day. So Warcraft 3, Frozen Throne. Um, WoW, you know, was being like advertised in the launcher or something, and like we were like, wait, we get to play Warcraft, but like in 3D. That sounds awesome.

11:54 And a lot of us were also playing RuneScape at the time. So it's like, wait, RuneScape WoW or RuneScape Warcraft, that sounds amazing. Yeah. Um, so we were super excited for it, got to play it. I think it was a day or two after launch. We were at Justin's house doing a project near like Thanksgiving break or something.

12:13 We had like a project together we had to do, and I just remember like killing mobs in the starting zone and just being so happy while playing Boulevard of Broken Dreams, like on like the stereo or something. Incredible. What what starting zone? What did your first roll? I mean, so I we were like, so he was he had already progressed.

12:34 He was in the Barons. I remember he was on an undead rogue, and I made an undead warlock, you know. I was sitting next to him, a bunch of different things. So we were at his house. Guys were so evil.

12:43 Disgusting horde bands, evil horde bands, can't believe this.

12:46 Yeah. Um, but so but I got my account in summer of 2005. So I'm playing on Justin's brother's account. I remember his brother would constantly try to log in, and it would kick me off when I was at my house. So then I would constantly try to log in and kick him off. It was so toxic. Uh, his brother probably had no idea what was going on.

13:04 But um summer 2005, the War Song Gulch patch comes out, and I think I play the game or I download the game like the day that patch dropped, or like within a couple of days after it dropped. So, what's happening at that time? Everyone's doing BGs in Warsong, and to do BGs, you had to go to the portal in the north of the Barrens.

13:27 So in the north of the Barrens, there's the instance portal to get into War Song.

13:32 And it like shared a mountain with the Alliance in the Ashenbale side.

13:37 I believe so. Yes, I believe so. Which was cool. It was cool. Well, you couldn't queue from the capital cities. So if you wanted to play War Song, you had to go there. Well, the entire server is going there because everyone's excited to try the new content, and all the different leveling, you know, brackets are there, and you know, it's it's amazing.

13:54 Everybody's there. So in order to queue, um, you know, I got my character, you know, started leveling my character. I was in the level 20s. Um, or you would queue up at the portal, and then you would just have to wait for your queue to pop. And the queues only were inter-server, so it was only on your same server you would go against those teams.

14:14 So you're waiting in front of those portals for a long time, and you've got all these comparable level players around you because they're queuing too. What do you do in that time? We just started dueling, and eventually dueling start turned into you know higher stakes dueling, or hey, let's do like a little mini kind of tournament between like us six waiting out here or whatever, who's the best out of all of us?

14:36 So, fast forward to 2018. When I heard about the demo, I heard about it being capped at level 19. I was like, dude, it would be really fun to just do a dueling tournament. Why not? There's like barely any content on here, anyways. And we end up doing this dueling tournament. And short of it is, it was amazing.

14:53 Um, massive viewership, people really loved it. We had like a big kind of in-game audience watching, and it was really fun to put on. Never casted anything really officially before. So after it, I was like, dude, this is this was awesome. We should do another one of these when classic comes out. Following year, I think it was May or June of 2019, the classic beta comes out.

15:17 We end up doing a level 30 tournament, that goes really well. We end up doing a level 40 tournament when they increase the the leveling cap, that goes really well. And eventually uh I decided to put together the classic duelers league, which was like a dueling tournament we did. It was like a multi-week long dueling tournament, and that was really fun.

15:36 And then eventually in October or November, October, November of 2023, we did the OTK Makara. So that's kind of what I've been doing. I I just realized all this was because of you asked me, like, so what do you do? And and like I've been going on for like 10 minutes. Sorry, that's awesome. No, I feel free to cut out as much of the I feel like this is really important to any of that.

15:57 This is super important to set up like the the the springboard into the other stuff, I think, just to kind of you know, yeah.

16:03 So yeah, please. 100%. So that's kind of what you know that that's like my wow journey, I guess, and you know, how we got to the dueling tournament today. On the business side, in 2020, I co-founded a media organization called OTK with a bunch of you know fellow streamers. Um OTK, you know, sort of grew into this conglomerate of a bunch of different gaming subsidiaries, and we work on a lot of different projects, some visible, some not so visible to people.

16:30 And you know, some of those businesses that we've spawned, a lot of people know. Um and yeah, I work on those behind the scenes and you know, try to make sure our business, our overall business is moving in the right direction. And when I have a little bit of spare time or when I feel extra insane, I take on some passion projects, and that's what the dueling tournament is about.

16:50 Yeah, I think you know, uh those those passion projects are what keep you going, right? I mean, I I at least for me, like those the little things that don't necessarily help my finances are the things that like I look forward to and keep me happy and stuff.

17:06 So um I I love that you mentioned uh you know Total Biscuit, you know, rest in peace, because that's who I used to watch too. I used to watch them all the time, as well as uh Jesse Cox, because they did those videos of reviewing all the cataclysm zones, and that's back when I didn't care about anything besides what's happening next.

17:23 That's I I totally relate to that because that's all I used to watch when Jesse Cox had a new video, Total Biscuit had a new video, I was there seated, ready to go. So that's just that's so cool.

17:33 His channel, Jesse Cox's channel at the time, was called OMFG Cata.

17:37 Yes, that's what it was.

17:38 Oh my god, I forgot about that. And uh it was him, Total Biscuit, the Yogs cast did a lot of cataclysm beta coverage, and then Wow Crendor was doing his thing, it was an epic time, bro. That was like to me, that was one of the best eras of WoW content creation because it was it was so new, and it was just like you know, the Wrath of the Lich King chapter had just closed, and everyone's like, What's gonna happen to WoW next?

18:04 Because you know, we killed Arthas, and that was the big storyline from Frozen Throne. Yeah, and so there's just a lot of intrigue on what was coming, and you know, there wasn't all there wasn't like a bajillion live service games out there, like WoW was still like the thing. Um, so it was a really good time.

18:19 Yeah, I just found out that uh the guy who made Jimmy the World of Warcraft story, he still makes content, he just has a new channel. And I was like, oh, this guy is still like around. So I want I'm trying to get in contact with him because I want to like just ask him, like, did you ever think that video would be what it is?

18:35 Crazy. Um that's so funny.

18:38 So when you uh you know, you were making content, I I still go back and look at old like classic vanilla guides on Wowhead, and you wrote a lot of these, like I a lot of the dungeon guides, your your have a byline, which is uh always really funny to me. And um, you know, Jerry and I both have written some WoWhead guides, and it's funny to like touch that history of seeing what you've done.

19:00 And I go I go back and look at your YouTube and like the views on some of those videos are insane. Like in early, you know, because early classic, it's like there's so many people playing, and it's really fun to see. I don't know, it's inspiring to see where you've where you came from and then now where you're at.

19:17 It's like it's really cool.

19:18 Um yeah, we use the base of his old ones for forever, so his his writing still is still ingrained forever.

19:26 Um but like I think you know a lot of people don't make the jump you did from content creation to like uh you know business creation. Um, you know, it's it's a bit more popular uh nowadays with like a lot of streamers like making you know random food products and stuff, but like what what made you want to stop making content and start making organizations and businesses for people who do make content?

19:54 Like a lot of the streamers are like the face of your stuff, and like what what was that transition? For sure.

20:02 So I think for me, I think there was a couple of moments that kind of like flicked a light light switch onto my head. Um one of the big ones was I think it was the CDL, uh one of the early dueling tournaments. Basically, you know, we ended up putting on that event. Um, I didn't just organize the events at the time, I organized them, I produced them, I got the asset packages, you know, contracted and made, set up all the OPS.

20:33 I was casting them and I was administrating them all in real time. But I was also doing the sponsorship sales for them. So I would go out to brand partners, talk to them, negotiate with them. Um, you know, and it's obviously a big team effort. There's other people behind the scenes too, you know, just helping with all sorts of stuff.

20:50 But, you know, I I I definitely took a more like um I wanted to kind of just do do a full 360 on like just the whole process. And and that's kind of how I am. When I work on something, I like to kind of get into the nitty-gritty and understand it from like a first principle standpoint. But basically, you know, I was doing this, and you know, one of the tournaments did really well.

21:13 And, you know, financially as well, when you're when you have all that viewership, all those subs, and you know, if the tournament's profitable, you know, you can you can make a decent living with it. Um and it was right around that time where I started to feel like I was stagnating as a content creator.

21:30 Maybe not so much on the viewership side, but more so of the, okay, I I kind of, you know, I left my previous career. I came into this, you know, field because I was, you know, very passionate about it and I wanted to feel creatively fulfilled. But you know, you guys may may feel the same way. I don't know.

21:48 But you know, after you start streaming for a while, you really kind of see it all. And what do I mean by that is like, you know, there there's only a limited amount of ways to progress beyond. View count. I'm not talking about view count or money. I'm talking more so about like the day-to-day. And I distinctly remember one night, actually, I was in the office and I was like thinking to myself, do I just want to do this every single day for the rest of my life?

22:15 And, you know, I'm not learning anything. I'm not growing. I'm not, you know, if God forbid something were to happen and all of a sudden I just lost all my viewership, uh I'm I'm kind of SOL and I've got a wife and a family and stuff like that. This probably isn't the most sustainable career for me. So, you know, at the time, um, again, I'd been doing these tournaments, I've been doing some stuff with some organizations behind the scenes, and I had this vision that, you know, at some point I do want to transition into something more behind the scenes or something where I feel like there's more rungs on the ladder to climb.

22:50 And uh lo and behold, you know, coincidentally in in 2020, you know, I linked up with some of the OTK guys. And, you know, as fan and I had talked about doing an organization, you know, a year or so prior to that. And I think Rich and and some of the other guys had as well. So it just it was this weird sort of planetary alignment of, hey, there's an opportunity here, you know, we we all kind of have a little bit more free time.

23:15 Let's get together and start something. And so, yeah, that's that's kind of how it happened is there is this desire for more career growth, as well as this, you know, somewhat logical fear of if something happens, you know, I'm not really developing any new skills. Um, and that sort of you know catapulted me to the business side of things.

23:36 Very cool. Um, I think that there's a lot of like you know, circumstance, obviously, in in the thing where it's like you you had all of these like incredibly popular streamers, and then you were able to like pull them all together, but at the same time, like getting those streamers to trust everybody, like trust you guys, uh uh it it sounds like very difficult to to to manage all of that, and like you know, the the events after that, like notwithstanding, it was like a huge, huge, huge like media win for you guys, and like I don't know, uh it is you know it's it's been a lot of fun um just watching that grow and and all that, and then like now you have Starforge and Mad Mushroom and all this other

24:24 stuff that clearly is doing very well, and so um it's very cool.

24:29 Um but yeah, let's do it. I discovered you from a tournament, I think, in the AQ phase of classic 19. I was watching S-Fan, and it was it was a threes tournament, I think, right? Yeah, we did it in the yeah, and it was really good, and that's what got me into like classic PvP was that tournament. Like, oh, that's sick.

24:51 I've never thought about PvPing. And I watched that tournament, I was watching S-Fan. You do a threes tournament in Guru Bashi?

24:58 No, we did it in Warsong. So okay, yeah. Guru Guru Bashi could be you know helped. Interrupted sure, yeah. Yeah, so we war game into Warsong, and what we did was we split into two like sides of the map. So one was just kind of the open field in the middle, and the other was where the uh the horde hut is, the berserker hut, I think.

25:24 Um, we had that area be like a quote unquote map so we could like experiment with LOS stuff. That was really fun.

25:31 That was a tournament.

25:33 I think classic 3v3 is really cool, but I don't believe in like an arena rated system for classic. Um, but it was just a fun little you know one-off event that turned out pretty well.

25:43 Really? Why? I'm curious why.

25:46 So I actually, I mean, this is gonna give me a lot of hate, but I don't think I agree with the idea of rated PvP in this type of game, like in this type of MMORPG. And it's funny, I remember Rob Pardot, who is one of the leads on Vanilla WoW, essentially saying the same thing. I mean, he says one of his biggest regrets in WoW history was the inclusion of Arena.

26:11 And the reason for that is once you include a competitive PvP mode with like match matchmaking records and stuff like that, you've kind of indirectly told your entire player base that, hey, this is what the game is about. Yeah. Because there's no other MMR or anything in like the exploration, there's no MMR for that.

26:30 Uh leveling, there's no MMR, rating, there's no MMR. So, hey, here is this game. This is the important rating. This is like your gold star right here. This is what you should be focusing on. So, number one, you sort of like pigeonhole the player base or lead them into a specific playstyle, which I don't necessarily agree with.

26:49 And the other is when you have a competitive PvP mode that you've committed to, you've got to balance the game around PvP. Well, if you're trying to create an exciting PvE world with you know a lot of cool monsters and again exploration and unique RPG elements, you can't balance that with competitive PvP, which is all about homogenization, you know, making sure everything's as fair and even as possible as we're experiencing with this tournament right now.

27:16 So uh what I what I believe Rob said was you know, they had to make a lot of tough choices on their class design side because you know they wanted to create some really extravagant over-the-top abilities that they could no longer create because they wouldn't be balanced in arena. And that design space just quickly evaporated, and all of a sudden you're like you basically shrunk what your game can be.

27:37 So um, not to mention like the instancing aspect and getting players out of the world, like just not conducive. So that's why I'm not a big fan of it.

27:44 What about that's that makes sense.

27:45 What about how I do think that there is, you know, and let me maybe clarify my previous thought. I do think there is um a really interesting um I do think there's something really interesting you could do with instance PvP, including arenas and and battlegrounds. I think it's when you make it available the whole time and you attach a number to it that potentially makes things a little bit awkward.

28:24 So like imagine if BGs like Worse on Gold, Charlotte Valley, whatever the case, if they were only available for like three days out of a month. That way, throughout the rest of the time, the game is live. People are out in the world, they're exploring, they're socializing, they're accomplishing open world objectives, but then they still get to experience that instance, you know, PvP and have a good time there.

28:45 BG weekend was just that's when the weekend is live and stuff like that. Exactly. Exactly, more or less. Because the alternative is again, you know, you're taking people every time you have an instance of anything, including a raid, you're taking people out of the world. And that I feel like especially now, like if you want a PvP experience or like super competitive or you know, whatever, you can find that experience in so many different genres.

29:08 Whereas if you're looking for a community social game, you really find it in the MMO space. So you really want to preserve that competitive advantage as much as possible, I feel.

29:17 Interesting. Because like I I was talking to you about this earlier. I get kind of frustrated with Blizzard because I'm like, I'm like, why aren't you all marketing your PvP more? Like, I feel like PvP is how you get people to play games, right? Like, especially the esports. And I get frustrated because I'm like, you know, when I went when it was at BlizzCon, uh I saw a clip of uh one of the tournaments went on there, and like the audience went insane when they were able to like when they were able to win a match.

29:44 And I'm like, that's so cool. I feel like we're just not capitalizing on that. So I I I I get your point of view though, and like I guess in forever and more classic versions, more old school, where it's like you don't want to instance off the rest of the game.

29:59 Yeah, there's a the I mean it's a it's a great segue into like Blizzard is kind of uh not abandoned, but definitely like uh, you know, it's that you know babies in the pool meme where they're just like not really caring about the uh run underwater, which is PvP. But like I I really think that you specifically have taken up the mantle of like representing PvP in a fun way for their game.

30:25 And you know, they're very lucky like the with the hardcore stuff and and you with PvP and like a lot of these content creators have like um built parts of their game for them because we're so passionate. Um but like it's a lot of work. So like what what does it look like to organize a tournament like this um because it just seems so difficult.

30:54 Oh man. Um so you know, one thing about dueling in Classic WoW is well, first of all, any any event you put on, any community event, Pv pen, PvP event, whatever it might be, um it there's always a lot more work than than it seems on the surface. Um, you know, I think once you start working on this stuff, you realize, man, I really appreciate every bad thing I've ever said about any gaming event, uh, or frankly, any developer, I like completely take back and I regret saying anything bad.

31:28 But uh specifically with with classic WoW dueling, or you know, I guess WoW Forever Dueling now, you know, the game itself is not balanced. And dueling itself was never intended to be this like competitive mode. So, you know, I would actually argue that classic WoW dueling, you know, the raw version of it, which is just dropping a duel flag and and fighting, uh, it's not the most entertaining thing.

31:53 An example of what I'm talking about is, you know, imagine you're a rogue and you're dueling a mage, you drop the dual flag, duel starting, and like before the duel even starts, the mage is running on top of you, arcane explosioning the whole time. So like instantly breaks you out of stealth without the duel even really starting.

32:09 Yeah. Um or like a hunter duels you as a warrior and he he starts the duel 40 yards away from you, and he just like concussive shots you and you can't charge to him and like duels over basically. So one of the things that makes these events so challenging is that classic wow dueling is not a supported or sanctioned blizzard esport.

32:29 Um, it's just this thing that people can do in the game. In order for us to make it fun and somewhat fair, we have to create a lot of rules. Like, hey, you know, you have to start 20 yards apart, and warriors should probably get that first charge because that's most likely how you would encounter them in the world.

32:47 They'd get that first charge. And, you know, it's probably a good idea to give rogues the opener because, again, that's kind of how you would experience world PVP with the rogue. And, you know, it probably seems a little bit more fair. Their toolkit, you know, is is based on being in stealth and all that stuff.

32:59 So you've got to create like a lot of rules, and you got to test those rules, and you got to balance those rules for fairness, but also for watchability. You know, we can create a ton of rules that really balance the game, including matchup specific rules, like okay, rogue versus warrior, here's the consumables that each class about is allowed to use, and you know, warlock versus mage, here's the consumables each class is allowed to use.

33:19 But then it just makes things really boring and completely unwatchable and unenforceable, frankly. So, you know, in terms of like how how the organization of these events goes, it's pure chaos. Yeah, we're trying to get the rules set done. We discover things as you know time goes on, especially with WoW Forever, everything is new.

33:35 So we like discover new bugs or exploits or broken gear. So we have to patch the rules up. You know, you got to get the tournament administrators all on board, all on the same page. Um, you got to get all the competitors on boarded into the system, and so you got to set up the system. Shout out to Raider.io for really helping us with this.

33:53 Um, you know, you've got to get the website in the bracket ready for the tournament event. You've got, you know, just all sorts of things. Um the production itself, right?

34:03 Like there's probably so much like technology behind it.

34:07 Yes. And everyone, every competitor messaging you're like, dude, you've got to add this rule, dude. No, no, no, this rule, you've got to add this because like this class is unplayable without it, or that class is unplayable. It's gonna make the tournament so boring, bro. You've got to add it. And so you're getting a lot of pressure from so many different people.

34:23 Um, so you just kind of gotta you know, try to stay composed, keep your walls up, you know, ingest valuable feedback, but also recognize that you can't really let anyone sway you one way or the other. Otherwise, the whole event's just gonna be a disaster.

34:37 Not to mention, uh, I think WoW gamers are some of the whiniest, most finger-wagging people you could uh sorry. Yes, totally. Sorry, I'm like front shop this. So it's like we, you know, like everybody wants a fair tournament, but like it's it's hard, you know, like you make decisions, and I'm sure that it's like really, really difficult to like always make the right one because you know, you're you're in your thing and you're just trying to do the right thing and might not have all the context and all that.

35:07 I mean, you know, I'm not I there's there's a lot of like difficulties, I'm sure, in just like doing the right thing um every time.

35:17 Well, and also I I think all the decisions you made have from what because I'm I'm in the Discord, you know, I stand up at my level one character is still level one. Um I I think the decisions you did make have been really good decisions. And I don't think people have been or at least I think majority of the community is like that's I'm glad that was put in.

35:34 Like before the legacy talents, no legacy talents, you know, but certain weapons that were obvious.

35:40 Yeah, yeah, thank god.

35:41 Yeah, oh yeah, but I'm just saying, like the decisions you made, there was it was uh correct. That's really cool that you were doing that and not just saying, nope, is what it is, figure it out.

35:52 Well, I I appreciate that, honestly. Thank you. We really try our best. Again, like we we want to create a really fun event for the community. And I think I put that above everything in terms of like our goal pillars here. Like it has to be fun. People have to enjoy watching it, participating in it, and hopefully, you know, we'll be would be down to join the next one.

36:12 Um, you know, again, like you can make a really, really, you know, tight, uh compressed, you know, fair rule set that focuses strictly on balance, but then the event might not be so fun, or it'll be confusing, or admins have trouble enforcing rules consistently because there's so many rules and things slip through the cracks.

36:32 So yeah, we we've been doing our best and uh hopefully we don't disappoint everyone on the 17th because it's gonna be freaking chaos.

36:39 Yeah. So speaking of, it's in three days. Um where can people watch the tournament?

36:47 For sure. So just want to say big shout out to S Fan. Sfand uh essentially has uh floated a lot of the cash to make this happen. Um, we're paying him back, obviously. You know, got a couple sponsors joining us and partners and whatnot, but SFANFlow the Cash, he's hosting it, twitch.tv slash SFAND, Zaryu's hosting it, twitch.tv slash Zaryu.

37:09 Um, I'm sure pretty much, you know, we're requiring streaming for all the POVs. So all the competitors will be streaming it. Um, you know, I'm sure you just open up Twitch and and hopefully you'll find quite a few options.

37:22 Um so I think there's a lot of uh you know, Blizzard's clearly watching, right? They they're they're all they're always I in my experience, they're always aware of like these things. Um have you noticed they them like behaving in any way you think to uh address stuff within the tournament? Like like have has have there been any decisions that they made that have helped you guys?

37:52 So from a class balancing, I mean I'm just trying to figure out how to answer this diplomatically. Um no, damn it, Blizzard, answer my DMs, you know, like what the f no. Um so no, so generally speaking, no. When it comes to anything class balance-wise, uh first of all, I think uh Blizzard probably well, they probably prioritize a lot of people's opinions above mine, let's just put it that way.

38:20 Um every once in a while, if I see something completely broken, you know, not even dual related, just like, oh, a class is not working or something like that. Um, you know, I'll personally, you know, bug report it. But in terms of the tournament self, and as far as like, hey, you know, I think some people are saying like they balance the the classes around the tournament, yeah, that's hilarious.

38:41 I I wish uh I don't think the people at Blizzard give two shits about the tournament or us. In fact, they probably think it's a headache. I'm sure there's some people that are like excited and they watch it and stuff like that. Yeah, but I would say like the overall team, like when you're talking about dozens of people, Chris Zier Hutt is not sitting there thinking to himself, yeah, dude, uh tips out's tournament or Zary or S fans tournament.

39:04 So helpful.

39:04 Well, yeah, yeah.

39:05 It's I mean, just being behind the scenes now for as long as I have been, I will say they're probably like working 24-7 right now. They've got what three weeks to the launch? They're working 24-7 to make sure that launch goes as well as it can. They have their bug priority list that's been set, you know, it's just concurrently running.

39:26 The last thing that's going to happen at a company of that size is for an external third-party community event to all of a sudden take priority over a game that's going to be played by potentially, you know, 10 million plus people in three weeks. Just not not gonna happen.

39:41 So you're telling me that they didn't nerf penance because of the tournament. So it wasn't the fact that there were mages who were no, I'm sorry, a priest who were level 30 who were soloing level 50 mobs. That's not why they nerfed.

39:56 Yeah, no, I'm not I'm I I I don't I don't know if I totally agree with with you. I th I think I have seen some movement from them to help balance a little bit. Um which you know I think is fair. Like balance needs to be ideally across all the levels, right? Um but like you know, I think a lot of the RMT stuff and like the I think that's been pretty timely in terms of uh the tournament, you know what I mean?

40:29 And like I think uh they've been uh I think that I think a Grand even said that they're like watching the the competitors and anything that they do that might not be legal, they're gonna uh action, right?

40:43 Like I mean Akron even gave you a shout out in the last podcast episode. We saw that.

40:47 Oh shit, okay. Well that's cool.

40:49 You gotta wish you said he said your name verbatim said shoutout tips out.

40:53 I'm not even kidding. Oh, that's awesome. I mean, I I was on the podcast uh for this week, so you guys will. Oh, were you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Awesome. Comes out tomorrow. Yeah. Um, so actually, you know what? You might so here's what I think happens. I don't think they make any changes, or at least I know they don't make any changes that I request.

41:13 And the reason I know that is because I don't request any changes out of them personally.

41:16 Yeah.

41:16 Um, what I think that's probably happening is the event has kind of created this uh intensity behind playing the game right now. Yeah, and people are testing the craziest shit that they probably ever otherwise never would have because you know hundred thousand dollars are on the line. Exactly. So there's a lot of items and class interactions, and literally like hundreds of thousands of duels, I guarantee, have been taking place so far.

41:45 And through those interactions, a lot of things are being exposed that otherwise would not be exposed. You know, like would people really think that penance was OP if it wasn't being used in duels over and over again and like just constantly shitting on people? Maybe not. Maybe that drew some attention to the ability, and then they decided, oh, wait, it is maybe a little OP and we got to scale it back or whatever.

42:05 So I think the tournament may have it, maybe, you know, indirectly causing some issues to you know get a bigger spotlight on them. The issues would still exist regardless, but now they're being known because of the tournament. Maybe Blizzard's fixing these. I honestly don't know.

42:20 Well, it's it's a thing, too, if people are like, oh my gosh, they nerfed my class. I'm like, it's yeah, that's the risk you take of setting up for a tournament during a beta. Like they're gonna especially it's not like classic 19 beta, where these were the abilities, these is this is what they always did.

42:36 This is a beta where like, oh, that's a problem. I have to nerf that. Like someone brought up in the chat, they brought up Iceland. It's like, yeah, if that's a problem, it's it might just not be on their list. And you know what? It might not make it until after the tournament. That's just the risk you take when you set up for a tournament like this.

42:52 100%. And you know, we tried to make that very clear in the rules. Although every tournament, I'm like, I guess it's not clear enough. So let me add it another area in the rules, too. But you know, at the end of the day, wow, forever, we don't even know what the game's gonna look like.

43:05 That's the that's the part I can't even fathom for you.

43:07 Like, yeah, yeah, like we don't know, like week to week, they they could we somebody could discover something today. In fact, somebody did discover something today where I was just like, wow, we just cannot allow that. That like completely breaks the whole event. So, you know, people are discovering things all the time that that completely change the meta, and it's exciting for a launch.

43:26 I'm really excited, but in the meantime, it makes the tournament a little bit smarter.

43:28 I mean, you you reached out to me early and was like, is there anything in the beta that is gonna break the duels? And I was like, not that I can think of, and there's like a dozen things, and it's like and you know, it's it's a it's a it's a it's a live service game now, and it's also like I I don't think it's it's possible to know because it's being actively worked on every week, right?

43:52 Like stuff's getting added every week. So like and there are secrets. There's things that like not everybody knows. It's not vanilla where uh everything is So I don't envy that position. Um, and I really hope that you know something like the snake trinket doesn't just show up and destroy the tournament, because that'll be a bummer.

44:11 Um I can't believe that thing exists. It's wild.

44:16 Um do you think if like if you were to like start over the turn this tournament, would there be anything else you'd like change? I know people are brought up like adding solo self-found. Is there stuff like you would think maybe we should have done this or for the next tournament, let's do this?

44:33 For sure. I think definitely lessons learned moving forward. So, in terms of the the self-found stuff, um and the whole streamer stuff, I guess I'll comment on this. I don't have any control over what streamers do, what they do with their communities. You know, if somebody sends somebody gold, it's just impossible to police something like that.

44:51 You know, we're not gonna comb through hundreds of hours of VODs and oh, the streamer went offline, and then the next day they went online and they had you know 15 more gold. Is that kosher or not? Like we just don't have time, we don't have the resources, you know. A lot of people have volunteers are working on this.

45:05 So, you know, for that, we just can't really do much about it. However, I would love if there was a self-found mode in the game, in the base game, as well as in hopefully we get hardcore down the line. Um, that would make you know administration a lot greater, easier, like frankly. Um, it would reduce the controversy, I think.

45:24 But I also think that people um, you know, at the end of the day, streamers, just by virtue of being public figures, they will always have a massive advantage over the average player.

45:34 Yeah, for sure.

45:34 Yeah, like okay, you can't send them gold, it's cell found mode, they're gonna have like a legion of of fans just like helping them mob tag them. Yeah, exactly. And okay, well, you know, let's say you ban the mob tagging. There's you know, uh a bunch of people that will help them route and get places faster.

45:51 And they're always and at the end of the day, streamers get to play the game 14, 16, 24 hours a day if they want to. You know, the rest of us gotta, you know, do stuff, IRL and fulfill our obligations and whatnot. So for sure, they're always just gonna have the advantage. I hope there's a self-found mode in hardcore.

46:09 I would love to do it. I've I've talked about this before, but I would love to do a $1 million self-found hardcore mac raw on a hardcore server launch. So people go into the launch knowing that there's a tournament in like two months, and you got two months to prepare, level, gear, everything self-found.

46:28 And we do like a million dollar tournament after we do it live in like a studio. We bring like the finalists out to a studio in Los Angeles, make this a big thing. Uh I would love to do something like that, and then never do anything for a while again because I'd be burned up.

46:41 Um, I as I asked that question because I feel like people are just like, well, just just do this. It's like, well, there's a probably a reason why they're not just doing that. So let's get you to you know clear the air and say, hey, are you doing it then? If you want if you want to do a you know, monitor all that, then you do it just to give people the opportunity show them like what you're the stuff you have to do and how that process would even work.

47:04 Nothing would delight me more than someone saying, Hey tips, here's my plan for the next dueling tournament. I will handle everything. You can just like cast or something. I'd be like, dude, thank you. Thank you. Please, just here you go, but here's my full playbook.

47:19 Just go for it. Aspiring producers. Uh, listen up. Um, okay, so we only have like five more minutes, and I want to make sure that we get this in. Uh, what is your favorite item in World of Warcraft?

47:33 Ooh, that's a really good question.

47:37 Favorite item um literally anything that goes in a bag.

47:42 I'm gonna give a cop-out answer. Is that okay? It's it's your answer. So I think picking a single item probably off the riff right now, it's a little tough, but philosophically, I really like all of the items that have these quirky effects or these unique on-use effects that you know clearly get homogenized or stripped away, you know, even starting from TBC.

48:06 So, like um things like uh Skull of Impending Doom. That's what I was thinking of. You know, it's it's this, you know, you get it from this random quest thing that's in the Badlands, and you know, it it damages you, but then it gives you the speed boost, and there's a lot of really cool interactions you can have with it.

48:25 I'm sorry, it takes mana as well.

48:28 Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So um, you know, it's this really cool kiss curse item, super unique, and stuff like that just stops getting made after vanilla, basically. Um, you know, something a little bit, I guess, versions of a carry over, but like the way grenades work in classic WoW, I love the skill shot component to them, you know, just the just do a lot of cool things, open up opportunities for a lot of cool highlights.

48:53 So I'd say generally anything that's as cool, unique, whether it's trinkets or item spider belt, you know, it's this belt that like gives you 500 absorbed damage. Like I love stuff like that. So if I had to pick a specific item, probably something like that, one of those. Um, but or maybe like Rolling Dacks, just because you know it's it's the item.

49:14 It's the thing of Zori iconic.

49:15 But I I've always said that I want as like many bad items in the game as possible, just because it makes the good items more interesting, or like dealing with bad items and making them work is really fun. Um and stuff like that is it's not they're not bad, but they're you know, weird and quirky and and you know interesting.

49:36 So um World Wind Acts is just it's it's it's so iconic when I first played wow, I knew nothing, right? Didn't know what ThoughtBot was. I was like, oh, this is a quest, a warrior quest. And when I was like, this is too hard, so I wait until it turned like yellow and orange, right? And there was a warrior nearby who wanted to help me.

49:51 He said, This you want this. Like, I want this? Okay, cool. And he helped me do the quest starting in a rathy, and he like I know go this way, it's go over here now. Let me let me show you because this weapon's just you really want this weapon. Like, oh sick, I don't know what this is. And he took me over, helped me kill the uh cyclonian, right?

50:08 And I he said, Pick the axe is just it's so cool. I got the axe, I'm like, this is awesome! And I just I remember this guy, I forgot his name, I wish I remember his name, but he just found some random dude and just he saw how cool the weapon was. He was like level 50, I think. I don't know how he's in a rathy, and he helped me do it.

50:25 And like, even as someone who never played while first-time player, Whirlwind Axe was like that iconic weapon.

50:32 I'm I mean, watching Tyler One do the uh deliver thing on hardcore. I mean, it was just like the best content in the world.

50:41 Um, so yeah. Um oh, also speaking of content, just shout out your tournament because like you know, Wild Forever is awesome, but like what would people be talking about right now on the beta if it wasn't for that tournament prep? It's like the number one thing. So just it's great public publicity. Hopefully, Blizzards thank you for that.

50:58 I appreciate it. Um okay, well, I I think we're out of time, you gotta go. But um, thank you so much for joining us. Um, I hope that uh getting to talk to you kind of puts a face to the tournament so that people can kind of know. Uh, you know, these aren't just some shadowy cabals of organizers trying to uh you know get funnel money to streamers.

51:24 I think tips is uh in my experience, tips is like a one of us and um just wants a fun event for everybody.

51:31 So um an OG.

51:33 Yeah. Well I I appreciate it. And it's crazy to hear like the OG thing, just because like like there's the OG, OGs, you know, in my head. Like every every generation has like a its OGs, you know. Um, but no, I appreciate you guys inviting me on. And you know, you got your guys' content is amazing. Um, I love your videos, Jordy.

51:54 Thanks, bud. And you know, uh lots of lots of guides coming soon. So we'll see. There it is. There it is. Hopefully the tournament goes well, and hopefully we get to do this again sometime.

52:05 Yeah, we gotta do uh we gotta do like raid race coverage. Uh I think you'd be you'd be a good person for that too. Um I would love to to cast that. If I decide not to race, I guess. So um all right. Well, thanks, man. Uh we're gonna do the rest of the episode without tips later, but um, yeah, that's it for now.

52:26 Appreciate it. Big shout out, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you.

52:28 Thank you, take care. It's gonna go great. It's gonna be awesome. All right, thank you so much. Take care, guys. Bye. Bye.

52:35 A quick disclaimer: this episode was recorded before the patch notes dropped on Thursday. We will be talking about them on the next episode.

52:43 All right, well, uh, that was the tips out interview. I really feel like he um he's obviously incredibly well spoken, but there's there's like some some like communications management that he has to do, uh, that I've had to do in the past where you just can't quite say everything you want to say.

53:02 Um I I could tell that whenever we would talk about him, I could feel I could see all the stress leave his body. And then once you talk about the tournament again, I I felt that I'll come back. Totally.

53:12 He has the PR.

53:13 He was so happy to not talk about it.

53:15 Yeah, the PR training is real for him for sure. Uh it's it's he's very he's very well spoken, and you can tell that he's you know trained super well on that. Um, so um, other than that, the arena tournament, uh, this episode will come out on Friday, the 16th, but the arena tournament uh starts on the 17th, Saturday, and Sunday.

53:39 So uh make sure you tune in for that. And um other than that, we gotta we're gonna get into some news. So there was a survey that went out that kind of covered possibilities of a bunch of new classes that uh WoW Forever might feature. Um a lot of these were things that we've thought about, but some were big surprises that I think people didn't quite expect.

54:05 Um so we just kind of want to quickly go through like what was mentioned and what we think is viable in terms of uh adding new classes to WoW. Um personally I'm I'm really scared about adding new classes to to to classic because it just like the balance upset would be just so scary. Um I don't know.

54:31 I mean you look at some of those, and I I I I took the survey and I I wrote a lot of no's. I wrote I wrote a lot of no's, and I'm I'm gonna keep it real with you. I was like, this is a hero class, this is a hero class, this is a hero class, this does not fit. But what does hero class mean?

54:47 Aren't all the classes hero classes? I feel like that term doesn't mean anything.

54:51 It doesn't, but I I guess but the buttons they were the the abilities that were being asked. I was like, that's this doesn't fit. My paladin has two buttons, and you give them all this crazy ass shit, it's not gonna fit.

55:03 Yeah.

55:04 And I I I was watching Soda, you talked about this too. Like he was mad, like we're bringing up new classes and the game isn't even out yet. He's just the thing I I agree with. It was like, I don't want a new class for at least two years. I'm like, let the game, yeah, I agree. Let the game marinate. Yeah, let the game finish figure out the game we have now before we start adding shit in.

55:24 Yeah, but I mean to be to be fair, they're not. They're not adding them now. Yeah, they're just asking about them. I think it's okay to ask. Yeah. Um you know, I think that they've shown a a measure of um conservatism in changes at least at launch. Uh the graphics thing was the biggest swing that I think they took and it put you know, they hit it out of the park.

55:45 But um best thing ever in the game, right?

55:48 But yeah, okay, so let's quickly go through these classes and see uh what you guys think. So the first one on the list is Tinker. Uh technology focused class using gadgets and a customizable battle mech. It could potentially tank, heal, or deal range DPS.

56:08 Gundams. So I'm for it.

56:10 You're you're in you're into Gundam.

56:13 Yes, I love mechs. I'm for it.

56:17 Do you think they would be like gnome only?

56:20 Yes, I I see them like the little like gnome inside of their little what were their mounds called again?

56:28 The gyro combined.

56:30 Oh the yes, gyro, yeah, yeah. That but bigger.

56:35 I just picture mechanomes from BFA.

56:38 Yeah.

56:39 No, because mechanomes are robots in the same way.

56:41 They are.

56:42 Um, their own race. The the thing is inside of it.

56:48 That I think is cool but potentially awful, is that you're in a mech, right? And then when the mech dies, you die, your gnome or whatever pilot flies out, and then you have to survive until you get your mech back. And so, like, that's a weird like double death mechanic that I don't think a lot of other classes have.

57:06 Um how would that work in hardcore? Like, how I mean, I guess it would probably be fine. But it it it's a cool thing. Uh well, cheat death, you you know, you're you're at one HP or whatever, kinda. This would be like a second health bar that you have a limited move set as a pilot until your full thing gets rebuilt or whatever.

57:32 Um I don't know, it's a cool idea for sure. I do think that it would have to be gnome only unless they added goblin. I don't think there's a horde race that makes sense.

57:42 Yeah. I think they for sure have to add goblin if they were to add tinkers.

57:48 Well, they said they're not gonna add any familiar races, right? I think that's BS for the way. I I don't think they're gonna stick with that.

57:55 Yeah, I never say never at this point. I mean, it's it's forever, so they can just do stuff over time.

57:59 Um, they're just making us look different directions.

58:03 Hopefully. Tank heal or range DPS. I don't like classes that can do all three, personally. I prefer classes that can do only two of the things. Um, all three is just too much to balance, in my opinion. I mean, you guys are both you guys are both paladin players, so I don't know what the fuck I'm thinking.

58:22 It's just it's too much ability. Um so I would prefer if it was too take makes sense, heal I could take or leave. Um whatever.

58:33 It's because they tinker, right? They're like healing you through like their mag stuff or something like that.

58:37 Healing makes more sense than range DPS. You'd be firing missiles.

58:42 In my personal opinion, guns or whatever, yeah. Umancer, ranged DPS specializing in shadow magic and undead minions.

58:53 I think that's cool.

58:54 Pretty cool. Pretty cool.

58:57 It's just it's weird because I don't want to spoil the rest of the survey, but they also mentioned like death knights, so it's like you have death knights, assuming warlocks, and necromancers. Can you read the description so we can figure out how that how they separate between the all three of them?

59:11 Uh the necromancer concept stands out because its class of deni is built around controlling multiple undead creatures. One proposed ability, Raise Dead, could animate fallen enemies for several minutes, with players potentially controlling up to six minions. Another ability, Corpse Explosion, would sacrifice those minions to deal large amounts of shadow damage.

59:28 This would naturally overlap with parts of the Death Knight and Warlock Fantasy, but the focus on multiple temporary undead could give the necromancer its own gameplay identity.

59:38 I think it's cool.

59:40 It's definitely like Diablo Necromancer, you know. Um there's like I mean what what what spells does Diablo Necromancer have? It's like bone spear and corpse explosion, right? And then like skeleton. And isn't there like a is there like a bigger skeleton version? I can't remember. Um it's cool for sure.

1:00:03 They're gonna run out of colors for these classes. I don't know what they're gonna do with all these like uh as a healer I care about this these things.

1:00:10 Um Necro would be green. I'm assuming the green, right?

1:00:13 It would probably like start adding polka dots.

1:00:15 I mean Necro stripes would be like dark green, maybe like like the um like the uh evoker is maybe. I don't know.

1:00:24 Um okay, uh which meant the name plane, sorry. I'm so stupid. I thought you meant like their theme color, like what their no no no, yeah, the class color, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, um yeah, yeah.

1:00:35 Okay, the next one's which range DPS or sport class using shadow and eldritch magic. I feel like that's too close to Necro.

1:00:43 I feel like you just add that to Warlock Nil.

1:00:46 Yeah, also it's called a witch. That's so lame.

1:00:49 Which is because if you were, I mean, yeah.

1:00:52 I would could you only be female?

1:00:54 Add that, or maybe add like a subclass to warlock, like in Boulder's Gate.

1:01:00 Oh, don't get me started on subclasses. That's uh I mean that's what specs are, right? But if we go even further, um, okay, which we're a little bit less sold on. Next is Warden, night elf-inspired bounty hunters capable of tanking or dealing melee damage. I'm personally all in for this one. I think Warden is a perfect type of character.

1:01:20 For me, a lot of the issues with these things are all the classes in World of Warcraft are um are typified by characters in Warcraft 3. Like like characters with names, you know what I mean? And you know, I don't think there's a tinker necessarily that has a name that makes maybe maybe like Mecha Torque or whatever.

1:01:44 Necromancer, I don't really think there is one. Witch, I'm not sure there's one, but Warden, you know, Maeve Shadow Song, it's got tons of um lore and a lot of necromancers and wow. What name necromancers are there?

1:01:59 Isn't Kelthazot a Necromancer once they died? Like all all of Sculomance is necromancers. The school, right? School for necromancers is Sculomance.

1:02:07 Okay, I'll give you that.

1:02:09unknown Sure.

1:02:10 Is he is he a necromancer? Kelthazod.

1:02:13 Yeah, I'm pretty sure. That is true.

1:02:19 That is true. Uh it says he's Archmage. He's a necromancer, yes, you're right. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, there you go. Um so yeah, I think Warden is a is a perfect class to add. Um, they've got those cool like uh circle blade things.

1:02:39 Yes, I love those. Yeah, those are cool.

1:02:42 I I based, I'm maybe I'm dumb. I based most of my thing off their abilities. Like the abilities that are listed, I'm like, okay, does this sound like it would be appropriate for how every other class has their abilities, or does this sound like this is way too much?

1:02:53 That's not something that I necessarily am worried about because I feel like they would just figure out the balance of that, right? I I'm just looking for like a class fantasy. Like, does this make sense for me in terms of like the world and and that does it have enough juice to like give it a personality that that is crystallized and clear?

1:03:11 I agree. But their their abilities were I'm reading this right, blood bolts, blood mirror. No, this is bored on this person. This person listed the wrong thing, yeah, on this thing. Um Blink Strike, Phantom Knives.

1:03:26 Yeah.

1:03:27 Um post lied to me. It's crazy.

1:03:29 Yeah, Blink Strike and Phantom Knives are like pretty solid ones. Um, I mean, my up is that makes sense. Yeah, she she's kind of a rogue, um, but she's like a tanky rogue.

1:03:40 It would kind of replace it'd be cool if we if we bring in well, my up's still in prison, right? Because of four PC, right? There's no round, never mind. Be cool to I think Wardens are cool. I thought it was cool, but it's a night elf only. Like, how do you get the Horden there? Torrin?

1:03:55 That's a good question. Um, you could probably do the Skyborn.

1:04:00 Oh, there you go, true. Skyborn, so only elves. That makes sense.

1:04:04 Yeah.

1:04:05 I'm sure I like it. I'm sure people in the comments are gonna yell us for being uh some retcon. Yeah. Oh, I gotta put a blue out to play a uh warden. Um actually that because they gotta pay the game. Yeah, pay 30 bucks.

1:04:21 You should have to pay to play the warden, right? Like that's what they're gonna do for this. Yeah. Um, okay, we're gonna run through the next one super quick. Uh Bard. Um support focus class built around empowering allies and controlling enemies. Personally, I love the idea of a bard. I just there's no bard character in the lore.

1:04:38 Like, like there's there's characters that have like, but like there's nothing there's no bard, right?

1:04:44 So I They dropped a hint though with that uh camping item.

1:04:48 Yeah, a little guitar. But but it's just like I don't know. I I I I just keep going back to like what character typifies this thing, you know what I mean? It does, it does make sense.

1:04:59 What what's that world's end cavern with the Torin and sometimes at the Dark Moon fair that bands uh elite torture?

1:05:09 Um yeah, but that's yeah, but then they can give you a buff. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I I mean I remember playing um Star Wars Galaxies as a kid. Uh you could have two classes, and I was a uh dancer and doctor, and that was the two classes that you could just sit in town and buff people and they would pay you, which is essentially what a bard is.

1:05:31 And I made so much money, but I was like a stripper doctor. Um and that's what I'm doing. Are you on Moonguard on retail? Uh I have not been on Moonguard, no. Uh but don't know my don't learn my search history.

1:05:44 Um that made me think about a random thing where it was like, what if like there was a what if the Torren Chews were a raid boss? I'm just picturing the mechanics. What if the water would be super cool? Torrent Chiefs uh, yeah, sure. I'd be I'd be cool. But they're good guys. We're gonna be called Fake fake fans.

1:06:01 Is it Chieftains or Chief? They're gonna get the Chieftains.

1:06:12 Next is the Sand Lane, which you know, I when we were talking to Soda, uh, this came up. It was undead elves uh using blood magic with tanking and melee and range DPS possibilities. This I think is probably the coolest idea for a pretty race on the horde um that I would have thought was like surprising and fun and super um thematic.

1:06:46 I don't know. I love this idea. I love the sand lane. Remember Blood Queen Lanethel run?

1:06:52 Or the Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask if it was going to be similar to her.

1:06:57 Yeah, or the princes before them.

1:06:59 Yeah, I had Alondo crash out on me because I got the first bite out of GDKP. Well, second bite. He was supposed to be the second bite.

1:07:10 That's where the Baron's famous line is from, right? Yeah. He put the I I said that righteous fear, you fucking rat. Yeah. You're so cool. Time my titties.

1:07:20 That um that that whole day was really frustrating because there was another player, a pro a warrior, who was in uh D-stance sundering before that, and I yelled at that person, but he was an officer, and everybody told me I had to apologize for yelling at him. And then 10 minutes later, Bsoka does that, and Baron yells at him, and everyone's like, fuck yeah.

1:07:43 And I was like, dude, I just did the same thing with this fucking guy, and I have to apologize, and everybody loves you for it. I was so mad about it, whatever.

1:07:52unknown Okay, never mind.

1:07:52 Damn it, bro. Yeah. Fusion's back, so we'll see if uh that person plays again. Um, next one is Runemaster, Titan and Rune Focused class that could tank, heal, or deal melee damage. So this is like the the first class that I think was planned uh in OG vanilla that didn't happen, um, as far as I'm aware.

1:08:16 It would be really fun to see this class, I think, because it it doesn't quite materialize in the mind right now, but I can totally I don't know, there's a lot of imagination that I think you can can run with here.

1:08:29 Um apparently Titan class.

1:08:32 It's a it's a it's a Titan-based class, or and it um where is it? Uh it uses different types of like metallurgy to do different things. So there's like um iron and uh silver and whatever for like damage tanking healing type stuff, which I think is cool.

1:08:55 Um I thought it was cool. Um I'm just I'm I'm I love old war. I I I just picture the uh Halls of Black Hall of Lightning, Halls of Lightning and Halls of Stone and all the all the stuff there. Yeah, I'm like I'd be a dwarf rune master. Holy fuck, that sounds cool as shit. Like put the fuck out of that.

1:09:16 Yeah, I think I put maybe though on that because I I think the abilities I'm like, these are I I I'm maybe the abilities are just hypotheticals, but I was being very critical. Like this again, if if certain classes right now have little to nothing and they get these really cool abilities, yeah.

1:09:32 I mean, they're not gonna be like uh one shot the boss. What do you think? Is it a great is it a good idea? I mean, that's I I I I think they're they're gonna try to balance it, right?

1:09:42 So uh is it called Death Touch? Yeah, what that one guy did.

1:09:47 Um okay, the last one is illusionist, a spellcaster specializing in illusions and creatures with different effects.

1:09:56 I think I always in that sense.

1:10:03 I think like running said it's a very good thing.

1:10:05 They have no strength. Yeah, like they have no power themselves, but the things that they create have the power is what I'm assuming is what an illusionist would be.

1:10:17 Yeah, I mean I'm sure they have some, but like it the idea is that you like create copies of yourself like mirror images and stuff, and uh or create little phantoms to do stuff for you. I think this is a cool idea. It worries me that there's just be a lot of like NPC bloat running around as you have like a bunch of pets or whatever constantly, but I mean it's the same thing happens with necromancer, so well, yeah.

1:10:44 So they had like prismatic bolts, you know. Shell game instantly swap places when you're active mirror images. Oh, that's cool. That sounds kind of cool. Oh, yeah, Phantasmic creature murlocks creates three illusionary murlocks that fight alongside you for 20 seconds, coordinating their attacks against nearby enemies.

1:11:00 These phantasms are fragile and easily destroyed. Instant cast, high mana cost.

1:11:04 It reminds me of um what was the shadow what was the priest spell in Sawd? Uh where you summon the three little dudes.

1:11:15 Oh yeah, the I was talking about.

1:11:18 It was it was awesome.

1:11:19 Um, what was that fucking rune? I mean, there's so it's I I've forgotten a lot of sod stuff too. It's been a long time.

1:11:28 I'm looking it up. Um and then there's also the last uh the last three listed are just the ones that they have in retail. So monk, demon hunter, and death knight.

1:11:41 Um I think I hard voted no on monk.

1:11:44 Hard-voted no on monk.

1:11:46 Interesting. I think monk and illusionist are like I kind of like illusionists. I think it was monk and bardo. Hamunky Lai. Homuncule was the name that's yeah, homunculai, that's right. Death Knight looked cool, but they're all two-handers. I like dual wielding. I was I was pissed. Like, no, you've already ruined I can't dual wield as an enhancement shaman, which I like.

1:12:04 That's the reason that you're un okay.

1:12:08 Dude, dual wield frost death knight wrath. Best my favorite templing loo ever was that. You picked the wrong spec, classically.

1:12:16 Um I I cranked Unholy DK was just bonkers.

1:12:23 Oh my god. On my procs, on my prox, I AFK. I'll play a prop paladin then in fucking forever if I want to AFK, dude. Like, I wanted to press button. You're playing okay.

1:12:34 Um I don't know, Ren. What which which of these classes overall would you want to see the most? Yeah. Is there any chance of getting you off rep paladin?

1:12:48 I think Tinker might do it. Or, you know, um, what is it? Like the Blood Mage kind of thing. Yes. I think that would be really interesting and cool. I would like to siphon people. What?

1:13:07 Um blood's a big sucker.

1:13:10 You know what I mean. Um I think that'd be really cool. I think that's a good thing. And then the tinkering, I just I I freaking love Gundams. Like my desk mat is Gundam, my screensaver, my there's no there's nothing in your background that's gundam. Are you serious?

1:13:27 I can't see it. Oh, I I I I have your I have your camera. I have your camera like okay.

1:13:34 Well, I have a bunch of gundams. I have a backlog, my entire PC case is Gundam. It's like a 50-pound case.

1:13:43 Audio listeners, uh, just so you're aware, she's full of shit and uh there's nothing visible.

1:13:49 Okay.

1:13:50 Stolen Balor.

1:13:51 Well who's your favorite Gundam? Is it heavy arms?

1:13:55 Of course, the classic.

1:13:58 Heavy on my favorite.

1:14:00 Um and then I love uh Zaku Mark 2.

1:14:03 Have you been to the statue in Japan?

1:14:06 I have never been to Japan. I would love to go.

1:14:08 Japan's great.

1:14:09 But I heard that they took it down.

1:14:11 Did they? Aww.

1:14:12 Yeah, sad.

1:14:14 Bummer. Um okay, so that was the uh survey of the new classes. I think that we're all kind of in agreement that we're hoping that they're able to get the game settled before they add classes. Um, because it can be quite a shift in the meta. Um, also with only 20 raid spots, uh, more classes you add remove the ability for other classes to join.

1:14:39 So it kind of changes some stuff. Um I'm hoping we see we see some raid buff changes soon, so we'll see. Um okay.

1:14:47 Um we still have salvation change already.

1:14:50 Right. We can uh they added salve to all paladins, right? Mass salve and salve. Um and it's not a buff, it's not a blessing. Um, so that's good. So you really only need two paladins now in a 20 man, um, which kind of makes the prop paladin a little bit less exciting. Uh so we'll see, we'll see what's going on there.

1:15:12 I can't wait to not include Jurdy in my raids. Um and are you doing what are you doing?

1:15:20 Oh dude, if the Light Club Discord is in fucking flames right now.

1:15:25 You have a Grend and S-Fan. You're gonna be fine.

1:15:29 Like dude, I mean S fan said he's saying the same thing I'm saying too, which is nice, but like it's just like I don't want to be mean to whoever designed Paladin, whoever that was, not trying to be rude. It's it's genuinely, it is just almost a universal miss.

1:15:50 At least not some changes. The priest stuff is so fucking snooze, dude. It is incredibly boring.

1:15:59 I keep getting told that. Oh, you know, we don't and I'm I don't know if I can say this, maybe cut it out. That um well, you can't we don't want to give wrath and other abilities. Like other classes have other abilities. Why are we the ones that can't get that?

1:16:12 They're worried about prop Aladin being too powerful because it's it's it's got so many tools.

1:16:19 Oh, they I know they're always so it's so lame because they're always like that.

1:16:23 It was like dude, they're not because in T B C they're the fucking Giga, in Wrath, they're Giga.

1:16:28 In like uh But my thing is I just wish they would have started from the most popular versions, which are T B C and Wrath, and then you just dumb it down for forever. I'm not you you dumb it down. I I would I would hey give me wrath and just nerf the fuck out of everything because at least that paladin's fun to play.

1:16:44 Like make me do like minimal threat with all the abilities I have. It's it's just fun to play.

1:16:48 I just think Prot has a lot of utility also. Like you have a bop, you have um uh you know, consecrate's a pretty unique spell. There's a there's a lot of things that you have that like the other tanks don't have.

1:17:01 Um well they nerfed consecrates and now it's forecapped and then it does some damage to other.

1:17:06 It's still a passive AoE threat that a lot of other tanks don't have.

1:17:11 It it is, it's just I I understand the intent behind the design. It's just you have two other tanks that already worked in um in vanilla, and you just made them better, and then you made prop paladin just kind of work. So these two tanks that already worked now work even more, and you've buffed their AoE, and you buff Thunderclap by X amount of percent how much damage it does, and how much uh attack, I think it's 10% more attack speed reduction on Thunderclap.

1:17:41 Um, you've done all this for them, drew into that really broken berserk capstone, which is that has to go. And it's like, so what you you made prop paladin kind of work and you took away the AoE niche that we had in TBC and in Wrath. So it's like, what did we get in return? A 10 second button. A button we get to press every 10 seconds.

1:18:00 How is prop paladin DPS?

1:18:04 Um, it's it's good in in AoE still, but single target, it's okay.

1:18:09 All right, well, let's move on.

1:18:10 Warrior and Barrago dominated, but yeah, sorry, off topic.

1:18:12 Sorry, sorry, Ryan. Um okay, so real quick, just to cover the there was a PvP podcast today that Blizzard put out um that covered PvP and some of the top line notes no ranked rated PvP is being planned for forever. Uh, how do we feel about this?

1:18:34 I know quite a few people in my guild who will be very, very upset at that. Oh really? Chan, to name a few. He was like hoping for that at the announcement at LizCon, I'm not gonna lie.

1:18:50 Uh we talked a bit a little bit about it with tips yesterday where uh which you know, uh listeners you just saw, but like I think that an arena for sure doesn't make sense. I would like to see some kind of group organized PvP ranking system, just even if it's like you know, it doesn't have any rewards, it's just you know, people having fun and um whatever.

1:19:15 But there I think that this is a good idea because it uh pushes players towards you know more um uh spontaneous PvP than just grinding ranks.

1:19:29 So I and I guess this is oh sorry, go ahead.

1:19:33 No, no, you go you finish your thought. I have my thought.

1:19:36 I just feel like it uh removes the elitism to an extent as well, you know. Like the people who all are like, oh, you're just a PVE or whatever. So I feel like it removes that extra elitism or like better than thou that a lot of WoW players have. Sure.

1:20:00 I I um I was back and forth and tips kind of sped the other way. But I I like rated competitive PvP in terms of like marketing because the AWC at um at BlizzCon, there was uh a 3v3, and it was like the the reaction when I forgot which team it was, I only saw part of it, but the the audience reaction when someone won was insane.

1:20:26 And I I got chills, like it was so cool. I'm like, man, I wish Blizzard would market their PvP more, and because I feel like you get newer players, like younger players to play for rated PvP.

1:20:37 Um I just don't think people want to watch it, is the thing. I think the audience is very low and it's difficult to watch.

1:20:44 Uh yeah, uh it's it's yeah, I just yeah, it's it's easy it's easier to watch like Valorant, right? Just yeah, get shot in game. I get I get it. I just think it PvP is just attractive for the younger audience, and I think it's like you want more people to play. Now Blizzard just needs to market their games in general.

1:21:02 Um, but when Tips brought it up, I was like, that makes so much sense for forever because everything he said just made sense. But yeah, you're right, you're right. Um more instant stuff in a classic old school game. You don't want that, you want everyone on the open world. You have to balance stuff for PvP.

1:21:19 We don't no, no one wants to do that. Um I I was I I thought about just having PvP gear that only worked like in arenas, that's it. Like you couldn't use it anywhere else. No, you could have your you could have your no we could have your rank 14 gear, you can have whatever, but like if you wanted the PvP and compete, it'd only work there.

1:21:37 That way it's not like you have to do arenas for a weapon like in TBC, right? But if that idea is dumb, I don't if then I'm fine with it.

1:21:44 I just think you I think that the idea that something that you can get from one place being usable in another place is really attractive to me in a classic version of the game.

1:21:56 No, yeah.

1:21:58 You know, like what's the selling being shit in PvE makes me feel like it's just a waste of time getting it. You know what I mean?

1:22:05 Um but it'd only be the theoretical is like it's only for arena that way. It's not like oh I have to do arenas because like yeah, I get you. It's like they say it's like they say with rank 14, like you when you know in the the newest version of rank 14, you feel like you have to do it because everyone's doing it.

1:22:20 Yeah, so it's like okay.

1:22:22 Um okay, we're gonna uh probably wrap up here in a second and uh kick some of these segments to next week. But um, I want to thank everybody for being here. We had a great interview with Tips Out, and um next week we are going to dive into some lore with the lore master Platinum WoW, who I'm just like the biggest fan of.

1:22:46 And I met at BlizzCon and uh he was like, Hey, and he's like, I'm Platinum Wo. I was like, Oh! It was like I've I'm not I I was not like starstruck by anybody until I saw him, and I got very excited. Um, so we're gonna He was in my guild and Saw.

1:23:02 Oh, was he?

1:23:03 Nice, yeah, and his friends. Um, there's a lot of very interesting lore implications in Forever, and also it could just all be a waste of time. Who knows what like does the lore matter? We don't know. We'll get into it.

1:23:18 I hope it does because you know the skyboard's gonna be Miss Medson's work.

1:23:21 No, I'm just saying in forever does the lore matter because it's not mainline, yeah, you know, whatever.

1:23:28 I hope it does because I I one of my biggest complaints with cataclysm was I like here in the Windlords and they have lore now with a skyboard. I'm like, dude, yes, please give me more air elementals. I thought that was so wasted in Kata. So I want more of that.

1:23:43 Okay, there you go.

1:23:45 Um all right. Well, thanks everybody for being here again. Uh, if you can hit the uh subscribe button on YouTube, the rate and review button on any of your uh various podcast platforms, we appreciate it. And we will be back next week with Platinum WoW. Um big thanks to WoWhead for partnering with us, and we'll see you guys next week.

1:24:05 Alright, bye.