Kibbe Body Types

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm making this video about warm movies. [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a cold open. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm making this video about warm movies. [SPEAKER_02]: And in every single second of my spare time, you can certainly find me in my living room watching a warm movie. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I was probably watching it like eleven at this point.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've already seen a lot to begin with. [SPEAKER_02]: I will admit here and now that I actually like warm movies not further ethics but just because I find them. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's probably just like a morbid enjoyment out of them which is horrible but like you know many of us many of us are not brave enough to admit that and I am so I do get a morbid enjoyment out of it as well as it's like this stakes are so emotionally you feel like really in touch with your emotions in a way that's strange [SPEAKER_01]: See this is all really really inconvenient for me because the new season of both versions of Love Island came out this month And I'm watching the British one and it's so good and all I want is for my yet to be watching it so we can Converse like I just need her observations about it like desperately and she's like I actually can't I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have to watch this form move each night. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like be sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't watch season twelve of Love Island UK because I'm too busy watching full metal jacket or like [SPEAKER_01]: Shinla Island, Girlfriend and War Movie Boyfriend. [SPEAKER_01]: That's us. [SPEAKER_01]: It could be girlfriend girlfriend actually.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking homophobic. [SPEAKER_02]: June of all months that we're recording. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so sorry to end on Pride Month. [SPEAKER_02]: No less. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'm watching many warm movies and last night I watched a apocalypse now for the first time. [SPEAKER_02]: I've like started it many times.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know the lore. [SPEAKER_02]: I work in like the movie Curtis of the Ministry. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm aware of it. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of movies and like ambiently aware of the knot. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I haven't seen. [SPEAKER_02]: It's also just so like ubiquitous in Paul culture that it's like of course, like everyone kind of knows about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I feel like and I don't know if it's not necessarily the case here, but I just feel like watching this Simpsons as a child made me aware of every kind of important movie. [SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I couldn't watch the shining while I watched it, but I knew exactly what was going to happen because [SPEAKER_01]: The Simpsons.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're like boring. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Simpsons have a lot of debt to pay for their spoilers. [SPEAKER_02]: And so do I, probably. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's so you look at it as like I at one point I realize that I caught a sex in the city reference where I think the horror the horror and then I remembered it's like the city at three being like [SPEAKER_01]: The horror, the horror.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, not me to never make it. [SPEAKER_01]: You were first saying that they referenced sex in the city in Apocalypse now. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like trying to do the math in my head for how that could pass. [SPEAKER_02]: They're all in the boat martenshin's like, so are you like a carrier of Miranda?

[SPEAKER_02]: They're so bored. [SPEAKER_02]: But then I was like reading up on the movie because, you know, I kind of know the lore but not enough of it. [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much lore. [SPEAKER_02]: They made a whole documentary about it because the movie production was just like absolute hell.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hard darkness. [SPEAKER_02]: Hard darkness, which was my least favorite book that we read in high school also. [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, just to call her out. [SPEAKER_01]: Just to call her out. [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a lot of debt to pay it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's hard to darkness. [SPEAKER_02]: I film makers apocalypse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those are really good episode of community from what I remember. [SPEAKER_01]: That's based off of the documentary about the failed production and that's why I know about this because again, I just watched pop culture about pop culture and not the original series. [SPEAKER_02]: She's actually the secondary source queen and all of a sudden.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so Martin she literally had a heart attack. [SPEAKER_02]: While they were filming, he was thirty-six, so like, you can imagine how bad it was. [SPEAKER_02]: They used a body double actually for Martin Sheen in the movie and the body doubles just like his brother because he had a fucking heart attack and was like, I would have commissioned because they thought he was gonna die.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they just have a body double for like a bunch of his scenes. [SPEAKER_02]: Think all I guess they look similar, but [SPEAKER_02]: It's such a massive production, but the movie is so fucking amazing, it's like insane. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so incredible. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe like guys you've got to watch Pockles now.

[SPEAKER_02]: So good. [SPEAKER_01]: Or guys, alternatively you could watch Love Island and converse with me about that, which is way more enriching. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you know Marlon Brando, fucked Richard prior? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Marvin Gaye. [SPEAKER_01]: I did, well, yeah, because Quincy Jones, I'm pretty sure, like towards the end of his life, was like just spilling all these secrets about who was sleeping with each other in Hollywood, which thank you, King, for that sort of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think Marlon do want to know. [SPEAKER_02]: Brando was pretty open about it too. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I talked to Michael Jackson, but apparently, he and Michael Jackson were like besties by the end of his life too. [SPEAKER_02]: Like he would like hide out at Neverland. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's not so fat.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, oh, more than bread is here. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's awesome. [SPEAKER_02]: Anyways. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Hannah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Maya. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is Rehash, a podcast about the internet phenomenon that's tracked and nerve in our culture only to be quickly forgotten.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we think are due for a revisiting. [SPEAKER_01]: This season is about beauty on the internet. [SPEAKER_01]: Social media may have snatched our faces, but has it also snatched our souls? [SPEAKER_01]: If you like our show and you want to hear more from us, you can support us on patreon.com slash rehashpodcast where we have monthly bonus episodes, weekly mini episodes, and early access to our regular programming.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't want to join the Patreon, feel free to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple Podcast because that helps a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: You read a little bit of a question mark? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, because that helps a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Is that better for you? [SPEAKER_02]: Incredible, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so excited to finally learn if I'm a pair or an apple. [SPEAKER_02]: Body type. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my yeah, I have terrible news for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's you, Comber? [SPEAKER_01]: That's [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: You think we're talking about fruits today, baby? [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the kibbi body system. [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't apples and oranges. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: This is like math. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not kind of a redoing math. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a fuck. [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: But we're doing something in the middle.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you've ever found yourself in like a TikTok or Instagram reels doom scroll, then like maybe you've come across a video like this. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm starting a new series today on what each can be family can wear in the summer time. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm starting with dramatic. [SPEAKER_00]: Now because they look best in very heavy fabrics that hold a lot of shape, it can be harder to dress in the summer, but I think I have some great options.

[SPEAKER_00]: This youth dress is very narrow to the body keeps its form with that thicker fabric. [SPEAKER_00]: It has a high neck, but it's still fabulously cool for the summer. [SPEAKER_00]: Keep in mind that a skirt like this is going to look very short and even more exaggerated on a natural because they're so long, but I think it's a really fun vibe.

[SPEAKER_00]: For me, the shorts are really in this summer, and I think that most types are really going to struggle with them, except for maybe the classic family and the genetics. [SPEAKER_00]: And then Taylor Swift has been coming out with so much cheese style. [SPEAKER_00]: This is not from this area.

[SPEAKER_00]: I believe this is from the newspapers in the newspapers. [SPEAKER_00]: It has a lot of summer looks for. [SPEAKER_00]: I just love the romper-esqueness of this. [SPEAKER_00]: It has that length that makes her legs look barbed all long, but the whole outfit has a lot of structure. [SPEAKER_00]: It keeps that vertical line by having the monochromatic look.

[SPEAKER_00]: Overall, the look still looks very classic, but it has a form that works for the genetics. [SPEAKER_01]: Maya, you grew up consuming two thousand media like myself. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember the first time you were ever introduced to the idea of like body types or shapes? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and some sort of like magazine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know what? [SPEAKER_02]: It was probably TLC. [SPEAKER_02]: It was probably whatnot to wear. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I used to fain illness and my mom would stay home with me from her job, which, you know, brutal. [SPEAKER_02]: I think she also would want to stay home to be honest. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I can't wait for my daughter to come down with the flu so we can watch a woman's television.

[SPEAKER_02]: All she knew I was fake gay. [SPEAKER_02]: You should do it. [SPEAKER_02]: I thought we would watch TV with the dead that we'd like eat our little like snacks. [SPEAKER_02]: Like she'd make a little board of snacks. [SPEAKER_02]: And then we'd watch we'd watch one on to where and we'd just simply binge it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was my favorite kind of day. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I definitely learned about it from like Stacey London and Clinton Kelly being like [SPEAKER_02]: Girl, your body looks like a rock and you cannot be wearing those like frog shirts that you wear every day. [SPEAKER_02]: There's like one lady who loves frogs and I just think they should have let her keep her frog aesthetic.

[SPEAKER_02]: But anyways, and then they like turn everyone into this like dumpy looking office worker and they give them some like terrible care and haircut. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, there's a lot of like, no, you can't layer that because your body doesn't work like that. [SPEAKER_02]: I love to give them like Auburn highlights.

[SPEAKER_02]: Lots of Auburn highlights, lots of like heavily layered haircuts, but you know, we're in fashion at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's just like dumpy office where, and I'm like, the frog lady, especially on like letter cook, she wants to wear her fucking frog shirts, her family seems to hate her.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just let her have this, or like why don't you get her, a gorgeous aesthetically pleasing top and give her a frog pin. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, why does she have to get rid of the frogs? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like some like frog embroidery. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, our life on this planet is so short and finite.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need to have our joy. [SPEAKER_01]: And also, did you know that they're back with a new show that I watched an episode of? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's called Wear whatever the fuck you want and it's their way of trying to rectify it, but it's kind of they're not like as [SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're not telling people, oh, don't wear this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's more people who are like, I want to improve the way I dressed or like, whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: And they like give them clothes to try on. [SPEAKER_02]: But like, the clothes on people getting like put up by their friends and family. [SPEAKER_01]: No, they're not being like covertly filmed in their ugly outfits or anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've started to develop a bit of an inversion to Stacey London who like absolutely nothing against her. [SPEAKER_02]: But because I'm like specifically graying right in the front of my part area, a lot of people are like, [SPEAKER_02]: You should just grow your hair out and like, you know, you look like that woman, you know, that woman that woman and then like getting, you know, Stacy London and they're like, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like that woman, it was like, forty five when she filmed one on tour. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't. [SPEAKER_02]: I am twenty eight. [SPEAKER_01]: Only graying like from the front of her hair, which is kind of cool. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same as, you know, when, yeah, you're me and you're going fully gray in your mid twenties.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm also like, yeah, I don't need to own my grades. [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone always tells me in hand, I don't own our grades. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, bitch, we're, we're young. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely not. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll own my grades when I'm like, in Perry Menopoles. [SPEAKER_01]: So the first time I ever encountered body types, I think, was on the sweet life of Zach and Cody when I was thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think there's an episode where London tells someone that she should be like the dress she's wearing is meant for someone with like an hour glass figure. [SPEAKER_01]: but they had like a squash shaped body or like some kind of like ugly fruit shaped body. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm recalling this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I remember being like, I don't know what any of these words mean, but then eventually, you know, you consume more media like what not to wear and you pick up on it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I've read a lot of seventeen and there'd always be like, how to dress for your body type and there was always four body types, which was tall, short, athletic, and curvy.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no, she was like skimmed, skimmed. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like tall. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like you. [SPEAKER_01]: I think the implication was that you were tall and skinny or short and skinny or curvy meant everything else or like athletic. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're skinny representation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do remember that as well. [SPEAKER_02]: I was reading like you know, J- fourteen. [SPEAKER_02]: We're like, I'd reused Cosmo because I was like, horny and I was a child that I didn't really understand. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I would just read a reading call.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna be like, you're gonna [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, how do you achieve female orgasm?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's like, John Malay has like a bit in one of his specials where he talks about how one day his dad found under his bed an issue of Cosmo Magazine and like two cigarettes in his suitcase. [SPEAKER_02]: You're a question in the plan. [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of beauty. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: On the internet. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, these were my main reference points. [SPEAKER_01]: And so one day when I came across a video like the one we put above, I was confused because my understanding of body types was that you were either a tall, short, curvy, athletic, or like, [SPEAKER_01]: a squash and so I was like oh this one is way more descriptive and in-depth and like using like more like kind of neutral terminology what is going on and what I later learned was that the person in the video was using the kibi image identity system which is a classification system from the heyday of the nineteen eighties [SPEAKER_01]: when self-help books were like the big thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that has like somehow become one of like the internet's favorite ways now to categorize women. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna start off by telling you about the man behind the Kibbi system himself. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a man named David Kibbi. [SPEAKER_01]: I was gonna say Joseph Kibbi, so I feel so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean they're both biblical names. [SPEAKER_01]: So before we dive into this system, I want to tell you about him because I just find him like really fascinating and like kind of a narcissist in such a campy way that I kind of get behind. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is how David is described in the about section of his website that he definitely wrote himself.

[SPEAKER_01]: A consummate artist, celebrated author, media star, critically acclaimed performer, style avatar and trendsetter, [SPEAKER_01]: Master of Color, as well as a savvy businessman, his greatest accomplishment and contribution may well be raising consciousness. [SPEAKER_01]: Bringing down ideas that have never been seen before and gently pushing people forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: He introduced self love and love itself into the beauty slash fashion industry, which love itself. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's before David had been primarily focused around people's fears and fixing their perceived flaws. [SPEAKER_02]: I think he would be really well in Apocalypse now. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, at the end of the, you know, I think you'd be able to relebred him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that would be good for his like moral character development. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about moral character development. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not. [SPEAKER_01]: So David describes himself as a child piano for a cheat. [SPEAKER_01]: I do say that. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I was so bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I went to cello camp. [SPEAKER_01]: That's different. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, you, you got to stop low and baller. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So his background as a child, piano prodigy led him to later pursue show business in New York City. [SPEAKER_01]: And while he was there, he was working for a casting director.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he says he saw a lot of people lose out on roles to others who were less talented than the people who got the parts. [SPEAKER_01]: and he attributed that to the fact that they hadn't cultivated the right look for themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: And so David was nostalgic for this era of Hollywood stars who all had carefully constructed images which complemented their types and identified those images as the key to their success.

[SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn, like, like, Marilyn Monroe got some ribs removed, like that kind of type, like you're specific. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, just that, like, for example, he brings up how Jean Harlow was the ultimate femme fatale, and so she constructed her look around that, or [SPEAKER_01]: Betty Davis was the quote saucy spitfire and like those were the types of rules she got and so like her whole image and like star persona revolves around that Audrey Hepburn as well like her kind of like classy but like slightly tomboyish look he brings them up as like reference points because [SPEAKER_01]: He's basically like that's how they got ahead, was that they figured out what was their luck and they like leaned into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: He begins to work in style, consultancy, including for a company called Colour Me Beautiful, which we will talk about later. [SPEAKER_01]: But through his work, he's eventually asked to write a book. [SPEAKER_01]: It's the nineteen eighties and yeah, like I said, the self-improvement industry is booming and I feel like everybody was getting a book deal for anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so in nineteen eighty seven, he puts out his book, which is called David Kibby's Metamorphosis, Discover Your Image Identity and Dazzle as only you all caps can. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. [SPEAKER_01]: He's all one man. [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't Clinton Kelly all the straight? [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no way. [SPEAKER_01]: And either is Stacy London, actually. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, uh, gay icon. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense, actually. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to tell you about metamorphosis because basically like the entire kidney system links back to this book that he put out and like everything we've seen online about it is kind of about this book.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he introduces the book as an alternative to all the other beauty advice out there that was teaching women that their unique features were flaws. [SPEAKER_01]: And he says that his objective is to encourage women to work with the features they were given rather than fight against them or cover them up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he writes in the forward of his book that he begins his styling work when he realized that a new approach to beauty was desperately needed, and that he'd seen masses of women being calmed and dispending fortunes on clothes that were unflattering and unfulfilling, without any evidence that the energy, effort, time and money being spent was actually making the involved woman feel better about herself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there's like a touch of irony and that being like the forward of a book selling beauty advice? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, there's a bit of irony and like, okay, well, what you could spend all your money on is just looking better. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, we're keeping the element of spend all your money.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a, do you want to spend all your money and look like shit or do you want to spend all your money and look beautiful? [SPEAKER_02]: And in both cases, you're dropping a bag. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I like it just this funny almost like pseudo like altruistic framing with which people like to like introduce his ideas where they're like, well, you've been misled all along.

[SPEAKER_01]: And those people were just doing it to get your money. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm actually doing you a service which unfortunately you need to pay me for, but that's because it's the actual thing that's going to help you. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like marketing one and one. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he talks a lot about like how he has all these like gifts given to him by God and like I wish I could just like read you his entire website.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is fascinating. [SPEAKER_01]: But he basically is like this is me like I actually can help you and there's like almost like um I don't like almost a culty vibe going on. [SPEAKER_02]: I was gonna say I mean this is why I said he was what had been good in apocalypse now. [SPEAKER_02]: He's got a bit of cults energy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: So David's proposed plan of action is to then invoke those old Hollywood startlets and help women identify an image theme for themselves within his system of thirteen types. [SPEAKER_01]: And those themes then act as guides which David will then instruct readers on like how to follow with every detail of their look so that they can lean into and like show off the best version of themselves based off of that type.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does this idea of like your kind of image identity not remind you of like personal branding as we talk about it today? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think people love to be classified into something. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I do too, you know, it's like it goes in the same realm of like, oh, how I love lists, you know, I love lists, but make me a list and I'll eat it right up because you're a Virgo.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's because I'm a Virgo, but also like I love, I love to be placed in a category that like, I don't usually necessarily agree with, but I'll be like, that feels good. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's like a little bit of like a serotonin boost to that. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that people, of course, I think that's like the amplified today on social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't look girlies making stuff up. [SPEAKER_02]: It's really just like, that's kind of the whole energy of this, the whole science behind it is like, [SPEAKER_02]: Do you like to make stuff out saying? [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, no, I think that the personal branding aspect makes a lot of sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that he is right that it is easier to brand yourself if you just kind of pick a thing and go with it. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that that's happening on social media. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, everyone kind of has their little stick. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think social media is made for like new ones or like coloring outside of the lines.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's made for putting yourself within these boundaries and then kind of like delivering that to people. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a reliability on those that I think people appreciate, but is it good for us? [SPEAKER_02]: We will find out. [SPEAKER_01]: makes you think a little bit about like putting together a dating app profile, where you kind of like have an understanding of like the different types of people on dating apps and like what they're leading into to like sell themselves and stick out but also be like I know the type of people looking for this type of person will like this you know what I mean you know the guys on dating apps where I'm like oh you're all kind of doing the same stick because you kind of have identified the different types of guy that's

[SPEAKER_02]: The small bean guys is the one to stay away from but the ones who pose like this you guys can't see me, but I'll show Hannah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely on it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that is like a guy absolutely leaning in. [SPEAKER_01]: He's got his little cropped off and he's going Oh, this little picture and he's like I'd love to take you on a movie date.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_01]: Every other guy on Hinge mentions letterbox in one of their problems and I'm like, oh, we get it King. [SPEAKER_02]: What are your letter box taught for? [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, it's kind of cute. [SPEAKER_01]: Now that I say it a lot, I'm like, oh, no, because it's all, if one person did it, if everyone does it, it's like, because it's a girl.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a girl. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also like, okay, again, like, this is just as categorizing our personalities. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, this is a detour. [SPEAKER_01]: She cannot be placed in a box. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she cannot. [SPEAKER_01]: So in order to understand the kibis system, we actually have to talk about ancient Chinese philosophy because the foundations of the kibis system are based on the principle of Yin and Yang.

[SPEAKER_01]: So kibis isn't actually responsible for like this initial application of Yin and Yang to styling. [SPEAKER_01]: That actually goes back to the work of a professor at the Columbia Teachers College named Bell Northrop in the nineteen thirties. [SPEAKER_01]: Bell wrote an article basically asking if you are a Yen or a Yen woman in the late thirties.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then this principle was expanded upon later in the sixties by someone named Harriet Tillden McKJimsey in her home-ech textbook art and clothing selection, which actually ended up containing a lot of the seedlings for the ideas that it would end up in Kibby's book, kind of feels to me like he ripped her off a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Yin Yin Yang obviously like often represent opposing forces working in tandem to create a sense of balance and Kibi uses that to categorize different kinds of physical attributes and then their corresponding essence. [SPEAKER_01]: to basically set you off on trying to find your image I'd like to see.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to tell you some of the attributes in Yin and Yang. [SPEAKER_01]: For Yin, the physical attributes include petite, rounded, voluptuous curves, delicate bone structure, large luminous eyes, delicately pointed chin, sloped or tapered shoulders, [SPEAKER_01]: Our glass figure, small hands and feet, delicate skin, fair complexion, and softly textured lustrous hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the essence that's assigned to it, their basic essence is receptive, accommodating, charming, enormously appealing, magnetic, a person capable normally, appealing, a person capable of attracting diplomatic, artistic. [SPEAKER_01]: And then for Yang, the physical attributes are tall, angular.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not all broad or sharp bone structure, higher or exotic cheekbones, blunt jawline, prominent nose or facial features, square shoulders, straight body lines, large hands and feet, distinct coloring, extreme texture to hair, either silk smooth, extra fine or wildly coarse. [SPEAKER_01]: And then the basic essence is dominant, creative, forceful, legally imposing, [SPEAKER_01]: a person capable of persuading charismatic bold.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and so when we actually get to like the classification of the Kibi body system, you'll see how kind of hard it is to pinpoint people and how he tries to like kind of accommodate for that. [SPEAKER_02]: Also just I too love the measurement of essence. [SPEAKER_02]: I love putting essence on a scale and deciding.

[SPEAKER_01]: What kind of essence structure goes with your essence? [SPEAKER_01]: Because that sort of the linkage being made. [SPEAKER_01]: And this part of the book is almost like directly ripped off from Mick Jim Z's book. [SPEAKER_01]: But an notable difference is that in her book, she also like identifies the fact that traditionally, Ian represents the feminine while Yang represents the masculine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And basically what he's identifying [SPEAKER_01]: Here are doing is putting traits that he thinks are like stereotypically feminine and stereotypically masculine into these two camps. [SPEAKER_01]: He's not saying it, but like it's based off of a book that does explicitly say it and those are what those principles represent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it kind of this is the beginning of like a lot of the stereotyping that we're going to see take place in Kobe's advice that is already kind of counterintuitive to his sort of like I'm helping you like unlock your true essence whatever because [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of this is going to boil down, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you're tall, you're masculine, if you're short, you're feminine, round, girl, tall, masculine. [SPEAKER_01]: So even though the Yin Yang symbol is famously a circle representing a cycle of sorts, Kibi uses what he calls a Yin Yang scale to then sort out his thirteen body types.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's actually ten now because in recent years he's gotten rid of three of them for some reason, but I'm going to send you a photo like a pretty popular version of the scale that gets passed around. [SPEAKER_01]: So do you want to describe what you're seeing here? [SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard to describe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so on one end of the scale, we have Yang, on the left end of the scale, we have Yang, underneath those angular and sharp. [SPEAKER_02]: On the furthest left hand corner under that, it says five-foot-five. [SPEAKER_02]: So women who are Yang are five-foot-five and taller. [SPEAKER_02]: or taller so they're real tall and there's a girl she's got like she's just mean either I can't figure it out she's just like has abs she has like maybe more of like a two thousand's body type and that she's just like [SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't have a lot of like curvature.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's just very like she's like muscular and thin basically cool and then it kind of goes from there. [SPEAKER_02]: So this girl is labeled as dramatic and then slowly we see like other types of women who it's just so unclear what the change in body type is between these women [SPEAKER_02]: Other than that they seem kind of muscular, but like there's a picture Sophia Loren and she that looks quite different from the girl in the left, but she's right next to the girl in the left.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's like a more muscular girl on the other side of her. [SPEAKER_02]: So then it says like dramatic dramatic flows into flamboyant natural, then there's true natural or just natural. [SPEAKER_02]: There's just like so little clarity in like the progression of these women and what exactly we're looking at here.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's like then we go soft natural, traumatic classic true classic and he says that's balanced and there's like a blonde lady there who the actress. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she true classic is like everything is like norm like everything's no distinctness. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's been a distinctness, but then he has a woman who was not too much of a bum and like big tits, I guess, and that's kind of, that's her.

[SPEAKER_02]: Very unclear what the image choice isn't why. [SPEAKER_02]: Then we go soft classic, we're moving right at the moment. [SPEAKER_02]: We go flamboyant, gamine, true gamine, and I think that's like what Rita Moreno, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have a very good view of her body because she's like facing the side, so you don't know what you're looking at.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then we flow into Hallie Berry and Hallie Berry soft gamine. [SPEAKER_02]: We know Hallie Berry looks like, [SPEAKER_02]: then we go into like another woman from the forties and apparently she's theatrical romantic and then on the furthest right-hand corner we have romantic and we're very unclear about like the height scale disappears.

[SPEAKER_02]: It starts on the left and it never comes back. [SPEAKER_02]: And then underneath this there's a note that says please note pure natural pure classic and pure gamine are no longer in the system I wonder what happened there and on the furthest right-hand corner it says yin soft and around yes [SPEAKER_01]: So you're right in that the scale doesn't fully make a lot of sense at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's supposed to like set it up so like on the yang side of the scale before you get to classic, which is dramatic naturals and then like some classics you're not supposed to be taller than five foot five and then from there down [SPEAKER_01]: It's people who are under a five foot five, that's like, gamine and romantic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then based off of that, then you have like, for each kind of type, you have a softer version, and then a more angular version of the type. [SPEAKER_01]: With all of this sounds like absolute mumbo jumbo, it's because it... Also, wait, sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're a lens five and nine, so it just makes this on the scale at all, I suppose.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, five, five is like, that's like, if you're a classic, you're about five, five. [SPEAKER_01]: Other ones are supposedly supposed to be a bit taller. [SPEAKER_02]: But then for some reason, I don't know if we're the left hand corner. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's visually- No, but do you see how the line goes through her head?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she's taller than that. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see it goes through her head. [SPEAKER_01]: It goes right. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's basically like, [SPEAKER_01]: The scale, and she's not on here, but one of the more classic versions, I'm pretty sure of a flamboyant dramatic, would be cured lightly.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's just so like lean and angular, all the way to like Marilyn Monroe, who's got like a classic curvy figure. [SPEAKER_01]: But within the middle of that it's really really hard to uncover what each of these are or like really what makes them different from one another. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to actually break down the characteristics of each body type because it would take forever and like like is that like some of the distinctions are so nuanced that talking about it wouldn't make me sound like a crazy person if I like try to rationalize it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in Metamorphosis [SPEAKER_01]: KB offers a quiz which is meant to help you understand or break down what your type is. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the quiz itself is multiple choice and it's broken down into categories of question. [SPEAKER_01]: So you answer your questions about your bone structure, your flesh, which is the word he uses and which I don't fully understand what they're referring to as flesh, but they can be system loves to say flesh instead of like fat or muscle, your facial bones.

[SPEAKER_01]: your facial features and your hair. [SPEAKER_01]: And then for each question you write down the corresponding letter for the most accurate answer and then you like tally them up at the end and whatever letter you wrote down the most will point to you to your type and then the next one you wrote down the most might determine if you're like a flamboyant or like a soft or whatever those distinctions are about three essence.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, so based off of your body type, like your features and your body and your bone structure, that's supposed to tell you what your essence is. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I see, okay, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because like I said, like if you are short, you are like girlish and if you are tall, you are masculine.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the T is like what's on the inside is determined by what's on the outside. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which is really funny because this whole book is basically about unlocking who you really are and embracing that and showing that off. [SPEAKER_01]: But in order to unlock who you are, you have to like, do a really, really descriptive breakdown of your physical body and bone restructure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cool. [SPEAKER_01]: So, keeping herages that readers take the quiz and the lead hard and with a friend who will help them answer the questions. [SPEAKER_01]: And he stresses the importance of taking an objective look at yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: I attempted to take the quiz so I could like understand how it worked.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do it with a friend but all the online quizzes are like just take a photo of yourself in your underwear straight on and do it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like sure I could not for the life of me like after taking a couple of these quizzes and trying to answer those questions I could not for the life of me even get anywhere close to understanding [SPEAKER_01]: what my kidney type is and I don't think that's a reflection of me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's because this whole thing makes almost no sense. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not me, it's that. [SPEAKER_01]: And it almost feels a little bit like it was designed to not fully make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: So metamorphosis has been out of print for decades and yet like somehow [SPEAKER_01]: It and Kibi have like really blown up online.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been out of print, I think since then, nineties are early, two thousand. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I could tell you how exactly like the image identity system found its way online and like how it got such a big following. [SPEAKER_01]: But I couldn't really pinpoint to a specific instance or moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there started to be a bunch of Facebook groups popping up. [SPEAKER_01]: that were dedicated to the kibbi system and there's actually a kind of quote unquote official one that he's a member of called strictly kibbi that sounds like a fucking cult and there's also like then in like the mid-twenty times like a bunch of blog posts and youtube videos started popping up that were people teaching people how to like identify and dress for their kibbi type [SPEAKER_01]: There's also like a lot of dissections of how different characters on different shows dressed in accordance to like their KB type and like all of like those kind of style and hows.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what would Mrs. Incredible be? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, that's a really good one. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me, let me look at the scale. [SPEAKER_02]: When the pigs are mom on the kitty ball, can we kiss all or short? [SPEAKER_02]: She's so short. [SPEAKER_02]: She's so short. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, next to Mr. Incredible who's super human tall, so who's to say?

[SPEAKER_01]: But if she's anything like Holy Hunter tiny, I think she would be the Marilyn Monroe of it all, would she not? [SPEAKER_01]: Or should would she be Hallie Berry? [SPEAKER_02]: But she just said that like, not truly long, like gangly torso. [SPEAKER_02]: As she is, a Pixar character. [SPEAKER_01]: She's slim too.

[SPEAKER_01]: You guys, please, write in. [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know what can be body type is. [SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Incredible. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, please let us know. [SPEAKER_02]: I actually really do want to know. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll keep the comments open this time. [SPEAKER_01]: But only for that, don't you dare abuse that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then around twenty twenty three, the Kiwi method made its way to TikTok, which is when people started writing about it more and it started getting more attention. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if a longer form version of the Kiwi system is any better, but once you've synthesized it down to like [SPEAKER_01]: TikTok, it's really just like telling people that there's a body type, and here's how to dress for it, and it just gets really like women's magazine quiz coded.

[SPEAKER_01]: KB himself has kind of a love-hate relationship with his online presence, because on the one hand, it's like made him and his work relevant again, and probably more than it even was in the eighties. [SPEAKER_01]: But, on the other hand, he seems so like a really, really resent [SPEAKER_01]: Other people trying to interpret his system for themselves, even though he published it into a book for the public to buy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is for the author king. [SPEAKER_01]: Death of the author. [SPEAKER_01]: Literally. [SPEAKER_01]: But my yeah, he's the first person to ever bring love into fashion. [SPEAKER_01]: You drew him. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love. [SPEAKER_01]: And love itself. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right. [SPEAKER_01]: And no one appreciates that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we never read that up enough. [SPEAKER_02]: Does he have a two-pay? [SPEAKER_02]: He sounds like he would have a two-pay. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think you should Google a picture of him. [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm. [UNKNOWN]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of what I expected. [SPEAKER_02]: There's like this terrifying generation of like game end from the eighties who just like have scary vignures in like a two-pay and the same hairstyle that they've worn for like [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he kind of looks cool here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Famously also married to a woman Maya. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, racist. [SPEAKER_01]: But her sexual identity. [SPEAKER_02]: Fuck. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, his, okay, actually his wife is kind of actually, I'm kind of down for it. [SPEAKER_02]: I like it. [SPEAKER_02]: I like how he looks.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's fascinating. [SPEAKER_02]: I like how he looks. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm down and there's a photo of him taking in like the New York Times and he actually looks pretty. [SPEAKER_02]: They put him like streetwear. [SPEAKER_02]: Like David, he looked pretty good. [SPEAKER_02]: What's your, what's David's capabilities?

[SPEAKER_01]: He stiles himself. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I don't know if there's a kidney system for men. [SPEAKER_02]: I just pulled one up. [SPEAKER_02]: It says male, kidney types and there's a photo of Benedict Cumberbatch on it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I actually have seen videos about the Gammean type and they keep bringing up ASAP Rocky because shocking that he is as a male Gammean.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I tell you guys, I stood like three inches away from him one day. [SPEAKER_02]: He got out of a car. [SPEAKER_02]: I was standing right next to the car. [SPEAKER_02]: It was late at night and no one was around. [SPEAKER_02]: Except for me and my friends. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, I should move over for this car door opening.

[SPEAKER_02]: They was kind of parked on the sidewalk and lo and behold, who gets out. [SPEAKER_02]: It's ASAP. [SPEAKER_01]: It's ASAP. [SPEAKER_02]: It's ASAP. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, who's that stunning gorgeous man? [SPEAKER_02]: And it was ASAP. [SPEAKER_02]: And he was tiny. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a five-eight queen.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, the average man is basically my height. [SPEAKER_02]: So, big ups to him for being a short king and being so gorgeous. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And pulling Rihanna. [SPEAKER_02]: And also pulling Rihanna, who is Houthall? [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I, five eight. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, recently it's snuck backstage at a concert. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, one of you see famous people in person, they're all way tiniere than you'd even like believed. [SPEAKER_01]: So short. [SPEAKER_01]: Pink Panthers and Charlie X the X, both a little tiny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Charlie X the X. How, how tall is Charlie? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really like eight. [SPEAKER_01]: Five X X. [SPEAKER_01]: No, she looks small, but again, she's like smaller. [SPEAKER_01]: She's five, three. [SPEAKER_01]: Like me. [SPEAKER_02]: See, I feel like I've related to her so much being a half Indian girl myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now that she's short, it's done. [SPEAKER_02]: I really do it all. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we were probably really different on the kibbi body skill. [SPEAKER_02]: Like we have different essence, this we shouldn't even be in the same room as each other. [SPEAKER_01]: No, absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you like, they're off the Yin Yang vibe entirely. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm really back on track. [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, like, Kibby's sort of almost like a authoritarian approach to his own system. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, is really made evident in the strictly Kibby Facebook group where people are literally like, Kibby's word is a law, guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he has the, like, the final say on determining anybody's type. [SPEAKER_01]: Because for people who are into the Kibby body system, like, a big pastime is just trying to identify different celebrities. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a few celebrities who have become like really controversial, where people will be like, I know Kibi said that she's definitively this body type, but like, I can't believe it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, people being like, you're not allowed to go against like, Kibi's word. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Sarah Jessica Parker is like a pretty controversial one because she's short and thin and athletic, but also she's got like a complicated ball. [SPEAKER_01]: God, she looks so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: God damn good. [SPEAKER_02]: incredible body yeah but oh the word okay the worst episode of sex in the city is where they go to Atlantic City that's not our global and even then it's still good so that's I'm saying that but there's a scene where she wears she's kind of pregnant and she's wearing these are really low-rise very skinny jeans and then like this kind of top that has tassels on it to hide her tummy [SPEAKER_02]: but she's like social, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has a really cropped top on. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, you look so fucking good, it's disgusting. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Disgusting. [SPEAKER_01]: No, she has, like, an in-be-utiful body, but as far as the KB system goes very hard to classify. [SPEAKER_01]: That's an exceptional one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't ever take it. [SPEAKER_01]: She was taking too many boxes. [SPEAKER_01]: There's too much yen and yen going on. [SPEAKER_02]: I do love these like ultimate marketing movies that you buy my book, but then like, you can never talk about my method again. [SPEAKER_02]: The only way to talk about my method is if you meet me in person and I determine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so literally understandable. [SPEAKER_01]: I was about to get to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the thing is this book was put out in the eighties, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's been out of print for most of the existence of like the internet as we know it. [SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: it's I think kind of benefits him to like not have it in print because it means that if you somehow fall into the kibby world and like really want like a true analysis which he's made it very clear you don't have the objective eyes to like do for yourself and like no one no matter how much they study his work can like accurately do it then you have to go to kibby and pay thousands of dollars to have like a makeover done on you basically

[SPEAKER_01]: and that is his system. [SPEAKER_01]: Although he did put out another book this year and apparently with styling tips are like so eighties and like so dated in a way that I mean he's like this needs more shoulder pads. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, literally his advice for some types is like based off of shoulder pad and like tailored suits and like very eighties garments.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, no shame in shoulder pads. [SPEAKER_02]: Those women could keep their bags on their shoulders. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look as someone with famously sloped and hunched back on the shoulders. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, my slouching. [SPEAKER_01]: I could really use some shoulder pads for sure, but yeah, you know, there's some really strict rules against tailoring for almost everybody type, which I think just feels really aides coded because like no one wears tailored clothing anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, but we should though. [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually really good for you to go tailor your clothes because this era of like where did I read this? [SPEAKER_02]: The stretchy shirt era where it's like everything's made to stretch. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it was articles of interest or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that would make sense because it's mass produced. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: The mass produced kind of stretchy shirt and we've lost the art of tailoring, which actually like does wonders for a fit and also for investment in your clothing. [SPEAKER_01]: Well yes, you've heard it here folks.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you were right that basically he's made it kind of like weirdly exclusive or like made it this thing where ultimately it's up to him because he wants people's money, which reminds me of another online trend. [SPEAKER_01]: color analysis which we did a mini-sode kind of talking a bit about the like history of the side of the color theory and how that goes into color analysis on the patreon which you should subscribe to you can find on our patreon but basically [SPEAKER_01]: Like the KGB system, seasonal color analysis is sort of a relic of the nineteen eighties and this like whole self improvement craze.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the heyday of color analysis was brought on through a book called Colour Me Beautiful by Carol Jackson, which was first published in nineteen seventy three, but then stayed on the best seller list for like years and years into the eighties, which is when it kind of became this whole enterprise that sold like [SPEAKER_01]: make up depending on your seasonal color.

[SPEAKER_01]: It sold special books for like men. [SPEAKER_01]: They did like in-person consultations and David actually worked for the men's part of color. [SPEAKER_01]: Me beautiful earlier on in his career. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: So the basis of seasonal color analysis for the uninformed is that we can all be divided into four subcategories of seasons based on our personal coloring.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this includes your hair, eye and skin color, but it also involves like the hues and undertones of these colors as well. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have cool undertones, dark hair, bright eyes, and your winter, or if you like warm undertones, light hair and light eyes, you're spring, and consumers are then encouraged to shop within a palette that is considered complimentary to their season.

[SPEAKER_01]: And women used to carry around swatch books of like their seasonal colors going shopping. [SPEAKER_01]: In case they were like, oh, I want to buy a shirt, but I'm just doing this on like on a whim and like I need to make sure it's going to be the right color for me. [SPEAKER_01]: So like when they do their consultations, they buy these swatch books that would help them with shopping.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder how brown and black women figure into the color theory analysis of it all. [SPEAKER_01]: Were they accounted for? [SPEAKER_01]: They certainly weren't the basis of it because a lot of color analysis also has to do with the contrast of your hair eye and skin color, which you're talking about white women.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's like low contrast if you have light hair and light eyes and fair skin. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that doesn't necessarily translate to a woman of like other skin colors just as I suspected. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what, to this day, my mom has not been able to get laser hair removal because once again, technology has failed Brown women.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she would have really liked to have that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but my yet as a white woman with really fair body hair, I too can't have it. [SPEAKER_01]: So true, mama. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's so true. [SPEAKER_01]: Call me out. [SPEAKER_01]: And so remember, don't ever forget about your long white women, followed by women.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: And the genders. [SPEAKER_02]: And the genders. [SPEAKER_02]: I actually know, genders. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like they're pretty hairy. [SPEAKER_02]: Are they like, I keep thinking you're ginger, Hannah. [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're ginger. [SPEAKER_01]: People everyone in London, they keep thinking I'm blonde.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I'm not even a true blonde, you guys. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a mousey brown. [SPEAKER_02]: And see, which no one would have ever done around the way. [SPEAKER_01]: I digress. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really think that like the concept of color analysis ever really went away because I feel like I vaguely heard about it growing up, but having your colors analyzed by a professional which costs hundreds of dollars, even thousands, has definitely had like a notable resurgence in recent years.

[SPEAKER_01]: It first picked back up in South Korea actually in the twenty-tens, and like people would fly over there to have their colors done. [SPEAKER_01]: But like now the industry is also popping off again in North America. [SPEAKER_01]: So similar to the kidney system, you're discouraged from attempting to do your own color analysis, because the only way to really know your colors is by paying [SPEAKER_01]: like thousands or hundreds of dollars to have it done by a professional which I think is really interesting this idea of like telling women like I know you've been dressing yourself and like putting makeup on yourself your entire life and like think that maybe you've figured out some kind of like taste or like

[SPEAKER_01]: some kind of idea of what you like or works for you, but ultimately like your absolutely clueless and like should not trust your like internal judgment. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of lack of intuition going on here. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of you don't have intuition about yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think I think fashions intuitive and like some people struggle with it more than others can relate. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, not in this podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I almost like can't really relate. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I do have trouble understanding why someone would need it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I simply were all different. [SPEAKER_02]: And so. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm all right. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and he makes it the same thing. [SPEAKER_02]: Come on. [SPEAKER_02]: Come on. [SPEAKER_02]: Don't fake it. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's true that I feel like here I was this whole time while researching this dressing as if I were a winter.

[SPEAKER_01]: When it turns out, I may be a summer. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought you were spring and confused. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: A spring has warm undertones. [SPEAKER_01]: I have cool undertones and blue eyes and light hair. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a summer but I will never know for sure unless I pay a woman hundreds of dollars to put fabric next to my face.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also in the way that like the beauty industry praise upon our insecurities, I feel like that's kind of praise upon our lack of trust in ourselves, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: And what's funny is that this is what Kibi also writes about in the preface of his book, which is just this idea that like, these beauty industries are always going to tell you that like, there's this new thing that you need to be conscious of.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's this new thing that you don't understand. [SPEAKER_01]: There's all of this like stuff you need to contend with because they're always going to want to study something. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like King, you're literally teaching women this insane system on how to like, [SPEAKER_01]: try and understand their body by making them categorize it in ways that they've never even thought to do before, which is awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I love when the straight man does that. [SPEAKER_02]: So just don't get them starting on the straight man creative director conversation because [SPEAKER_02]: Don't open up that bag, worms. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't work. [SPEAKER_01]: The bag will be creative directing where he getting his start today.

[SPEAKER_01]: You step aside, Demna. [SPEAKER_01]: Step aside, every man in East London knows somehow a creative director. [SPEAKER_01]: Step aside, Demna. [SPEAKER_02]: Can't even tell. [SPEAKER_02]: He's gonna make us all aware, shoulder pads. [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, that would be cool. [SPEAKER_01]: So both of these, like I said, are from the nineteen eighties that have like somehow become popular again online today.

[SPEAKER_01]: We recently worked together on a video you made for your Patreon. [SPEAKER_01]: Subscribe about American psycho, which is partially a satire of nineteen eighties consumer culture. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any like observations about that era, that obsession with like self-improvement and optimization, and why it is maybe making a comeback right now online?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of my research has been overlapping in general, like, you know, with the looks nice in episode, and the American Psycho, like, and sells video, which she has the Patreon. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not to be confused with the rehash Patreon. [SPEAKER_02]: It's my very own Patreon for my YouTube channel.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I think, and then with Mara Logo phase, like it feels like the trend we're seeing is probably gonna come up again in this season, but just like in these conservative areas, like materialism kind of skyrockets, like we said in Mara Logo because Bohemians down and materialism's up, they got these up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know I was thinking about this one year for sure to talk about how self-help books got so popular in the eighties and I was like, why? [SPEAKER_02]: I guess going into what you were saying about self-branding, I feel like in times of financial. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're not in the financial boom right now, but we are in like a conservative era.

[SPEAKER_02]: Looking back for us financially in general, but [SPEAKER_02]: It does feel like in these times where money feels like it's at the forefront of the zeitgeist or like at the forefront of like cultural currency, self branding is like the most important way to get ahead to it would feel like needing to optimize yourself in order to further yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as we talked about with Kimberly Gilfoil or like Christy Now, I'm trying to box their faces apparently to get further up in the Republican party. [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like [SPEAKER_02]: Feel like that's kind of the only pathway that people can see. [SPEAKER_02]: So I could see why there'd be a bit of a mirror between those two arrows.

[SPEAKER_01]: Boom boom back. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: And these times where I feel like capitalism is held up to such high esteem and we're really all about the money, money, money. [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we perhaps lose a bit of our soul and I think that there's this kind of obsession with like finding yourself or like [SPEAKER_01]: optimizing yourself or just like understanding yourself when you've become so devoid from humanity because you're so centered around money that basically like this thing that you've brought up again this idea of like capitalism will like steal your soul and then sell it back to you like I think it's just this idea of people almost like feeling like they need like they've lost sight with themselves and they like need to try and understand themselves

[SPEAKER_01]: but like had completely lost the plot on how to do that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I mean in the Americans like a video we quote this, I think it's a vox article where she talks about how Patrick Bateman and Donald Trump are kind of this like, sadistic void howling within. [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was such a great line, but it does feel like, oh, how do I upgrade my skin suit?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, how do I upgrade my skin suit? [SPEAKER_02]: And inside you, there is something I think going on. [SPEAKER_02]: They're just the skin suit. [SPEAKER_02]: And it feels a little bit like, that's what's going on. [SPEAKER_01]: researching the yuppies for your video and like they're embracing psychoanalysis and and all of these other ways of like trying to understand who they are and I feel like something about specifically the kibis system that like really stood out to me is that it feels like you're trying to use your physical attributes as a way of unlocking who you are as a person so that you can be the most of that type of person which there's just like something so belief

[SPEAKER_02]: To me about that I suppose what would be the most you version of you like what would be the most extreme self branding that you could do of yourself What would you lean into yeah like what would be the most extreme version of your brand that you could sell if you really locked in [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, if we're going to talk with like, like, use a kidney system for reference, I think the type that I'm probably going to end up being closest to is some kind of gamine, which is the like small girlish one, like physically, I just like a small person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, I'm small, but I'm not like Marilyn Monroe curvy either, so I somewhere in like the gamine. [SPEAKER_01]: category and so in all of these books they're like if you're a gabine you should just like lean into that like when I get mean tries and like looks to grown up it looks like a little girl like her mom's clothing and they're like you have to find ways to like suit that okay so this is basically what Sabrina Carpenter's been doing and everyone's so mad about it yeah that's like she's doing a gabine thing I suppose something [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Hannah, um, what would I put?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: You would probably be some kind of, I mean, you're like tall and angular. [SPEAKER_01]: You're probably a dramatic. [SPEAKER_02]: No! [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, but unfortunately, you'll have to take the like the kibbi test and then you can't even trust that you'll have to ask kibbi himself Which is subscribe to our patreon so we can give you a test So I think guys will interview David kibbi on this podcast if you subscribe to our patreon right now [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we could watch a live video of us being typed by this man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, just bringing it back and closing us off, we've been poking a lot of fun at the system and for good reason, it's very silly. [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think there's kind of like a darker aspect to it that is maybe worth talking about or unpacking, which is like, [SPEAKER_01]: Both this and seasonal color analysis are quite antiquated and they're also based on like older really out of date writings about beauty and fashion and body types.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like color analysis is based off of writings from the eighteen hundreds when like color theory was still being established. [SPEAKER_01]: And then the kidney system has its roots in like women's media from the nineteen thirties. [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously there's going to be some like old fashion and like problematic ideas there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then for one their base entirely around white women and Eurocentric features like we mentioned like even with kibi because part of the test is like talking about your face and your facial features. [SPEAKER_01]: and like they're all stereotypically European features like they'll be like for kind of possible answers regarding like your eye shape or your cheekbones or your nose or your lips and like it is just all centered and like developed based off of white women and then also like within the kidney system like they'll basically imply that [SPEAKER_01]: You can be any type at any weight, but then obviously that's not really true because like if you're something like a dramatic which is tall and lean.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like how would you possibly like identify your weight within that? [SPEAKER_01]: And also there's this idea that like no matter how much weight you gain your type doesn't change, which ultimately also doesn't really make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: especially like also feels like how's the misunderstanding of the different reasons why women gain weight and like why they gain weight in certain places and like how your age and like biological factors do play into that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like if you're this type you only gain weight in this place. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and like, truly, where would Marlon Brando fit? [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: He's not like, and he's just like, that was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_02]: That was cobalacic.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: That was cobalacic. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, I mean, like in in Kibbi's eyes because he's basing this off of like Hollywood starlets, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so for him, like the heaviest you can get is like Marilyn Monroe, who's would be like a size eight by our metrics. [SPEAKER_01]: People always like she's a size fourteen and it's like, well, she's a size fourteen for the nineteen fifties, which is not the same as a current size fourteen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is May Westeries or though. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, bring it up with David Kibbi. [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't talking about funny girls. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: But then like more than that, there's also just an argument to be made that underlying some of Kibby's philosophies is like actually harmful and outdated pseudoscience.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in an article for days, Felicity J. Martin linked a lot of current TikTok beauty trends, including the Kibby body system to aesthetic pseudosciences like Physionomy, which is the belief that a person's facial features reveal something about their personality. [SPEAKER_01]: Physionymous goes back to Ancient Greece but it was repopularized in the Victorian era where beauty writers perpetuated the idea that to where makeup was to be dishonest about like who you were as a person and like your moral character because that was apparently something that could be read off of the face and just like your facial makeup [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to make like a one for one comparison with that and could be system because within the kidney system there's not like any implied value to each feature.

[SPEAKER_01]: People tend to prefer it to other body type classifications because they feel like it has a more neutral tone to it but still like like we've said, kidney is assigning personality types and traits to each of these body or facial types. [SPEAKER_01]: Which I don't know, do you think there's something off about that if we're kind of thinking about it in this realm of like weird old pseudoscience that kind of fueled eugenics?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was gonna make a terrible joke with being at this where I was like, he probably would've done really well in the third rank. [SPEAKER_02]: Just because I'm like, yeah, a lot of this is a little bit eugenics, like I think that trying to like measure the aesthetic value of a person or this that extent of a person down to like a science and then linking that to like an essence which like I do think the concept of essence does have this innate value system within it or this innate concept of like virtue and vice or good and bad and I think that it can easily slip into that territory.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I do think that placing people within these categorizations and then trying to extrapolate from there [SPEAKER_02]: is pretty dangerous. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I obviously don't think it's necessarily malintentioned in that way, but I think that it's a slippery slope. [SPEAKER_01]: You genuinely really pops up in places you're like, oh, well, and I mean, like, I think, especially on TikTok, I just think there's now with like this really big obsession with sort of trying to break down different ways that people can look and like assigning different buzzwords to it or like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, talking about, do you have fox eyes?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have cat eyes? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have like this kind of skull or that kind of skull? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like obviously being done by people who aren't necessarily trying to perpetuate a new gen X or like aren't even old enough sometimes to even put two and two together. [SPEAKER_01]: But then it's like ultimately that is what we're doing and we are sort of like making people think about their bodies and their faces.

[SPEAKER_01]: in like a way that they just never would have come to like those conclusions themselves, so they not been exposed to it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think the lot of what you genics is beyond like the utter malice behind it is this kind of too easy solution to like a really complicated problem of like population growth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that humans falling into their most basic concepts of like [SPEAKER_02]: even when we talk about more logo and like looks maxing is just like there's most basic ideas of good and bad and then like kind of jumping off from there and I think that in many ways this plays into that that that the ease with which we can do that and like the way that it makes us feel like I think the easy categorizations are like we're creating binaries are like easy and I think that that's why it's dangerous you know [SPEAKER_01]: And I think even, you know, if you're thinking about something like classifying whatever people's essences with the way they look, I think we forget that we're also conditioned to treat certain people certain ways based off of like the way they look, which then kind of teaches them who they are in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not necessarily like, I mean, obviously, it's not like people are born. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm born short and that's why I behave this way. [SPEAKER_01]: So much as like, I do think that people [SPEAKER_02]: I think how are we going to explain shortmen, you know? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: Someone has talked about it. [SPEAKER_01]: But my last question for you, we've talked about the importance of bone structure to in cells and people in looks maxing and yet it's apparent from things like [SPEAKER_01]: Kibi and other online trends dedicated to categorizing and like breaking down all of these features that there's a pretty close equivalent on the girl side of the internet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that maybe we've become so accustomed to this kind of media for women over history that were no longer flagging this kind of stuff as being as insidious or like alarming as we do when we see men do it? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I do think that it has precedent in a way that makes it slip bias faster.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also think that like when things are branded in this girlish way or like [SPEAKER_02]: being put forth by a woman, someone gentsy, girly on TikTok. [SPEAKER_02]: It's packaged in a way that doesn't feel as scary as, like, I am an intel, and I want to kill in my ear. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's not, it doesn't feel as scary, I guess.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like, oh, that's nice. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it just has a bit of a softer edge to it that makes it more maybe like palatable to mainstream culture on top of the idea that like, yeah, beauty standards are the weight of it. [SPEAKER_02]: It's more heavily placed on women historically.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would definitely say so. [SPEAKER_01]: I also wonder if we've just been taught like to present these ideas in, yeah, like you're saying, like packaging that doesn't necessarily slap you in the face with this is good and this is bad and this is ugly and this is pretty.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it's like coated in there, it's more covert and like maybe it's either like manages to then fly under the radar or it's just like we're so used to women's media being like sneakily toxic and harmful and mean to us that we're just like that's just part of girlhood that's being a girl yeah I'd say so as well I wonder where like the fruit categorizations fall into this [SPEAKER_01]: I know, so I dropped the ball in my research.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where, where are the pairs? [SPEAKER_02]: And like, why aren't we talking about the pair, you know? [SPEAKER_02]: But like, I wonder, because I was also my earliest exposure to this kind of thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder what Kiwi thinks about the pair. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what do you think the essence of a pair is?

[SPEAKER_02]: Really juicy.

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