Come Fly With Me, Come Crime With Me: the Ken Jouppi Story

0:00 Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:03 Elizabeth Dutton.

0:04 Zarin Burnett.

0:06 How you doing?

0:07 I'm pretty good. How are you?

0:08 I'm feeling pretty darn good, no lie. Fair to Midland? Better than my fair to Midland. I'm high-siding it.

0:16 Oh, wow.

0:16 Oh, yeah. I'm eating good on the hog.

0:19 I like to hear that.

0:20 So, yeah, I would say high on the hog. High on the hog. So, I got a question for you.

0:24 Yeah, yeah.

0:25 Do you know it's ridiculous?

0:26 I do know it's ridiculous. What? Ridiculously funny. Ooh. We got an email from Rebecca, Rude Dude Rebecca.

0:33 What's up, Rude Dude Rebecca?

0:34 Who said Earworm Lasting Days.

0:37 Earworm Lasting Days.

0:38 Was the title.

0:39 Subject, okay.

0:41 And it goes a little something like this.

0:43 Hit it.

0:44 Dear Terry, Producer D, and interns. I listened to the Crimes of the Woodstock Generation episode. Zarin briefly sang a snippet of Going Up the Country by Canned Heat.

0:56 Sorry about that.

0:57 That song has now been in my ear for three days and is currently the background music to my life. I also was forced to Google Canned Heat, and now I'm all into the band, its history, the fact that the flute player, in their appearance on an unknown TV show perhaps called Hits Again... has an entirely unorthodox grip on the flute, isn't miming playing at one point during the lip-synced quote performance, and gets scarily close to the camera, resulting in me knowing absolutely too much about his nose.

1:30 Keep up the good work. Find me a new song?

1:34 P.S.

1:35 I love the show, and the Stuffed Owls Show, Texas A & M Cadet Show, is hysterical.

1:40 Oh, nice.

1:41 So I was cracking up when I saw that email, and that is ridiculously funny.

1:47 Thanks, Rebecca.

1:48 Thank you, Rebecca.

1:50 I'm glad that you found Can't Eat. Well, I got something ridiculous for you, Elizabeth.

1:55 Yeah, go for it.

1:56 All right, so imagine being a bush pilot. and getting busted for smuggling beer in Alaska in the 21st century.

2:04 Oh, I can't imagine that.

2:26 This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons. It's always 99% murder-free and 100% ridiculous.

2:42 Ridiculous.

2:43 Elizabeth.

2:43 Darren.

2:44 I've got a story for you today that I'm particularly fond of.

2:47 Okay.

2:47 Because it combines a few of my interests. One, it's about a bush pilot. Two, it's about a bush pilot in Alaska. Three, it's about a bush pilot who was smuggling beer in Alaska. I love that.

2:57 I love that for you.

2:58 Thank you. Also, as you might likely guess, flying has been on my mind a lot lately.

3:02 Oh, has it?

3:03 Since I just started taking flying lessons, and I cannot get enough of it.

3:07 What?

3:08 Yes.

3:09 Wait, how did that happen?

3:11 Well, I was given a first trial. It was a gift certificate for one hour of flying. And then that's what the part of the process is to start flying. You have to basically go up there and show them that you won't just yak all over the rental plane.

3:24 Yeah, right, which is what I would do.

3:25 Yeah, and so actually they brought up a puke bag, and I was like, bro, don't worry about it. I've been on all boats in the Atlantic, the Pacific, heavy chop. I drive real fast. I don't get car sick, boat sick, no motion sickness. He's like, really? Okay, well, I'm going to bring a bag anyway.

3:39 I'm jealous.

3:41 Well, I find that I love flying the way that some folks love– I don't know, college football.

3:47 Really?

3:48 I'm devoted.

3:48 You've taken to it.

3:49 Totally. If I could wear like pilot clothes, like people wear their college football stuff.

3:54 Why can't you?

3:55 Yeah, I do have like a bomber leather jacket and a bunch of other stuff to look like a World War II ace. But I'm going to go whole hog now.

4:02 Get a jumpsuit, Maverick.

4:05 Get myself one of those like aviator like the watches the glasses yeah you like to get outfitted wherever tom cruise shops there it is well as you know it's been my lifelong dream to fly and now i've finally done it i have flown a plane elizabeth i love that admittedly my instructor was sitting there right next to me you know to make sure i didn't crash said plane that's a good thing but i flew it was the best thing ever Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I got to ask anyway. Yeah.

4:30 Have you ever wanted to fly a plane?

4:31 No.

4:32 That was fast.

4:33 No, absolutely not. No, I am afraid of heights.

4:37 Oh, yeah.

4:38 That's a trouble. I am claustrophobic.

4:39 That's also a trouble.

4:40 I get terrible motion sickness. Everything that could be wrong with me is wrong with me.

4:45 It strikes you out on this one.

4:47 I can deal with commercial airlines because it's sort of, I just... you know, go to another place in my mind.

4:53 You dissociate.

4:53 I dissociate. And I've been on that JSX, which is like kind of a fake private plane that you go from like Oakland to Burbank.

5:02 Totally. But it's like a small Learjet style.

5:04 Yeah, exactly. And so you're lower and it's a smaller, you know, container that you're in. But, oh my God, like a little Cessna or something.

5:13 Yeah.

5:13 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

5:17 Let's dive into the story about an Alaskan bush pilot slash beer smuggler. Okay. Where to start? Well, let's start with bush pilots in Alaska, just to clear the air and get our heads right.

5:27 Yeah, yeah.

5:28 To set the stage, let me ask you another question. Did you ever watch Northern Exposure?

5:32 I sure did.

5:33 Did you? Did you like it?

5:34 I loved that show.

5:35 Okay, well, like a six-year-old might wonder, I got to ask, who was your third favorite character?

5:39 My third favorite character? Because I think I liked the secretary, the indigenous... Yeah, Marilyn Whirlwind. Yeah, I liked her. And then, I don't know. I liked, who was the old guy?

5:55 Holling Vincourt.

5:57 Yeah, I liked him. I didn't like Chris in the Morning.

6:01 Oh, the radio DJ?

6:02 Yeah. So I guess the doctor man.

6:04 Okay.

6:05 I like him.

6:06 Joel, yes.

6:06 Yeah, yeah.

6:08 Well, I missed that show when it was originally on TV, but I started watching the show later on when it was in reruns, and I just fell in love with it. I mean, I love that show.

6:17 I love, love it.

6:17 It's definitely top five favorite shows for me. I'm not going to lie. I like Northern Exposure so much that I own the DVD set. Oh. I also bought all of the seasons on streaming. Just double up. If I wanted to watch like on a plane or something, I have it on my laptop. Also, you know, these days though, like when you buy this from streaming, it's not, you say buy, it's more like renting long term or like leasing because, yeah, people have been learning recently when you buy a movie on a site like Amazon, you don't own it. It's like leasing because they can like, and I, which I low key hate that because they, you go to watch something and then that I bought and it's no longer there.

6:55 Yes.

6:56 That feels like a ridiculous crime.

6:57 That is a ridiculous crime.

6:59 My entertainment was stolen.

7:00 Serious crime. Have you ever been to Alaska?

7:03 No. Have you?

7:04 Yes.

7:04 How was it?

7:05 Amazing.

7:06 That's another thing I need to do.

7:07 Yeah, I super loved it.

7:08 Any place you'd recommend?

7:09 I liked Sitka and Ketchikan.

7:12 Oh, okay.

7:13 Cool. Like the little places.

7:14 Yeah, I'm with that.

7:15 I was into it.

7:16 Well, my point about bringing up Northern Exposure and my love for it is, is essentially the character Maggie O'Connell. You didn't mention her. Oh, yeah, her. She's the bush pilot on Northern Exposure.

7:27 Oh, okay.

7:27 And she's the coolest in my mind, right? I can't say she's my favorite character on the show, but she's definitely up there. Now, being a bush pilot means that she's like this combination of taxi service and long-haul trucker. Right.

7:38 Right?

7:38 And so in Alaska, that's the role of a bush pilot. Sometimes you're the taxi. You're taking folks out to a fishing spot or a hunting spot or out to, like, watch the bears or whatever. And other times, you're like a trucker. You're, like, the only person who can deliver food or needed medicine to the people who are otherwise inaccessible due to, like, a lack of safe roads in the winter or navigable water routes in the winter.

7:59 Right.

7:59 Now, personally... The life of a bush pilot sounds like an ideal life to me.

8:04 It's dangerous.

8:05 You get to fly a plane. You fly over beautiful places. You bring people to enjoy life or you bring things to people to save lives.

8:12 Yeah.

8:12 I mean, it's like you're this crucial connection to the outside world. And if you're extra lucky, you get to fly like a seaplane so you can land on land or water. You're like a duck.

8:21 Yeah, that is true.

8:22 Like if you could fly a duck.

8:23 You are a duck.

8:25 That to me sounds like heaven. I want to fly a duck. Now, I guess don't be surprised if one day you and producer Dave get a postcard from me from Alaska. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. I would never do that to you. But OK, enough table setting. It's time to meet our crimer of the day, the Alaskan bush pilot slash beer smuggler. His name is Kenneth Juppie.

8:43 And at the moment, his case is about to go before the U.S. Supreme Court. And so just like law and order, you could say this story is ripped from the headlines, Elizabeth.

8:51 I love that.

8:52 I thought you'd appreciate that. So what did my man Kenneth Juppie do exactly to have his case go before the U.S. Supreme Court?

8:59 I'd love to know.

9:00 Fantastic question, Elizabeth. The story goes, in July of this year, as the Associated Press reported, and I quote, The Supreme Court agreed Monday to review an Alaska bush pilot's claims that state authorities have tried to illegally seize his $ 95, 000 airplane after a passenger brought a six-pack of beer on a flight bound for a dry village.

9:21 Right.

9:22 So that's the headline version of the story.

9:23 Yeah.

9:24 That is a gross oversimplification.

9:26 Yeah. Well, it's usually how headlines work.

9:28 Totally. It's also inaccurate.

9:30 But most people these days just read headlines.

9:32 Yeah.

9:32 Well, that was like really the nut graph, the first graph in the story. So what really happened? Again, fantastic question, Elizabeth. I'm loving your curiosity today.

9:39 Oh, my gosh.

9:40 It can't be stopped. So let's take it from the beginning. And for the record, and to allay any concerns you may have, No, Mehmed the Conqueror does not come into this story. No, why?

9:50 I will not.

9:50 Start this story back in May of 1453. I think you probably could.

9:54 I probably could.

9:55 You probably could. So this tale of the West, Elizabeth, begins with Men of the Conqueror taking Constantinople. No, I promise you no historical super deep dives. In this case, our story begins in 1980. Well, technically, it begins in 1916. So let me back up a little bit. Okay, let's back it up.

10:10 Back it up.

10:11 You see, that's when the citizens of the then territory of Alaska voted in a two-to-one margin to approve something called the Bone Dry Law. And as you might guess from that colorful name, it was a statewide ban on the sale of alcohol.

10:24 Yeah.

10:25 Now, the next year, 1917, the U.S. Congress approved Alaska's bone dry law. And it was a territory that had to be approved by Congress. Yeah. And then it went into effect in 1918, which was just two years before prohibition became the law of the land in all of the states. Sure. Now, that was in, obviously, 1920 after the 18th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gets ratified in 1919. Yeah.

10:48 And as you know, Prohibition lasted from 1920 to 1933 when it was eventually repealed with the fittingly numbered 21st Amendment.

10:56 That's right.

10:57 Anyway, back to Alaska. After Prohibition ended, the people of Alaska wrestled with what to do about the ongoing alcohol abuse problem in their rural communities.

11:07 Oh, yeah.

11:07 It was, like, real bad. There were issues like violence, like bar fights, domestic abuse. There was other related alcohol-based crimes like vandalism, destruction of property, vehicular accidents. There were also health issues due to alcohol. And of course, there were deaths of all sorts due to alcohol consumption. So in the late 1970s, the state began to explore ways to come up with new legal restrictions on alcohol. They're like, how do we go back to prohibition? So in 1981, the state of Alaska decided to take what was called a local option approach to curtail alcohol abuse. Now, what that meant was that in accordance with the so-called local option, the Alaskan communities could exercise this option to modify the

11:49 Alaskan state laws in order to restrict, say, the importation of alcohol, as well as the sale of alcohol and even the possession of alcohol, which would include like, you know, like homemade liquor, moonshine, homemade beer or wine.

12:01 Seagull wine.

12:02 Exactly. No, for real. Now, the reason for this was that in the rural communities, alcohol was just a scourge, both for the native communities as well as for the communities of like migratory workers, like in the fishing industries.

12:14 Yeah.

12:14 So the result was starting in the 1980s, Alaska saw the creation of what was called dry villages. And in some of the dry villages, citizens voted to regulate the sale of alcohol. just limiting it to package stores and restaurants. In other dry villages, the citizens opted to pass local laws that prohibited the sale of alcohol, but not the possession of alcohol. So you could have your homemade moonshine and your homemade beer and wine. They were still perfectly legal, as was alcohol that someone brought from somewhere else and they brought with them. That was also fine, as long as they didn't sell any of it.

12:48 Right, right.

12:49 Now, naturally, for some dry villages, they passed laws that returned them to basically to the days of prohibition. So they outright banned the sale of alcohol, the importation of alcohol, the possession of alcohol across the board, right? Booze was banned. No more homemade beer, wine, none of it. Nada, nada, nada. Now, since all these local options were modifications of the state law under local discretion, that meant that if someone violated the local laws, whatever those were and whatever they may be, They were now violating state law and they were subject to punishment in state courts. So you didn't have to do by individual municipality and jurisdiction. They're like, your law is our law. Right, right. So that means a person

13:28 could be punished for knowingly sending, transporting, or bringing an alcoholic beverage into a dry village. That said, the amount of alcohol that a person imported or sold or possessed determined the severity of the punishment under state law. You with me?

13:44 Yes, I'm with you.

13:45 So it mattered if it was like a first offense or if the person was a repeat offender. These are all factors in terms of the punishment. For example, according to Ken Juppie's petition filed with the U.S. Supreme Court, and I quote, transporting 10.5 liters of spirits or 12 gallons of beer is a Class C felony. Two-time recidivists face Class C felony charges, too, no matter the quantity involved.

14:08 On the less serious end of the spectrum, first-time offenders who transport less than the quantities of alcohol above are guilty of only a Class A misdemeanor. For that first-time offender, the minimum sentence is three days' imprisonment and a $ 1, 500 fine. So there's some of these things would be felonies. If you do it twice, it's a felony. First time, it's a misdemeanor.

14:29 You get the idea.

14:30 So as well, there were also issues of how a person imported or transported the alcohol. So one of the punishments for bringing alcohol into a dry village was forfeiture, which means, well, here, returning to that same petition before the U.S. Supreme Court, they explain it well. And I quote, Using a plane to transport the alcohol subjects the plane to mandatory forfeiture, no matter the quantity and no matter the seriousness of the offense.

14:55 Well, we do that with drug forfeitures in the lower 48.

14:58 Yes, exactly. So also, if you use an airplane to, say, smuggle booze, that plane is always, and I quote, subject to mandatory forfeiture under the statute, regardless of whether the conviction is a misdemeanor or felony or is the defendant's first conviction.

15:11 Yikes.

15:12 So you do it the first time, you lose all your stuff.

15:15 Yeah. Right?

15:15 Yeah.

15:16 So if you're talking about a plane, that's a pretty big deal.

15:19 Sure.

15:19 So if you show up with like, you know, Just one bottle of wine and it's in the back of your plane, goodbye plane, if they catch you.

15:27 Yeah.

15:27 All right.

15:28 So now, to me, that's rough business. Wait a minute.

15:33 That is. That's very rough business.

15:34 You're a bush pilot. I mean, if you fly into the wrong dry village, like say you have a weather concern and you've got booze on your plane that would be fine in one town but not in another, you risk– That's.

15:45 A really good point. And the weather changes so quickly.

15:48 Exactly. You know, you've been there.

15:50 Well, I haven't been up in the rougher areas.

15:52 Sure, but.

15:53 You know, one of my favorite books is called The Cruelest Mile. And it's about Balto and Togo.

16:00 Oh, yeah.

16:00 And getting, I think it's diphtheria medicine to this remote village. But there's a race between... trying to get a plane, which they didn't do normally. They hadn't reached that point in aviation where they were doing that at that time of year versus the sled dogs. But that was the problem with the planes, is that everything would change so quickly and suddenly get far more severe than they understood it to be.

16:24 Yes. Weather, wind, it doesn't matter. The cold, there's multiple factors. The moisture, if you have icing on your wings.

16:30 Exactly.

16:30 So this is the concern for Ken Juppie. It's also why he's been fighting his court case for more than a decade. And taking his fight all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court because my man does not want to lose his plane.

16:42 Yeah, I don't blame him.

16:43 Now, I've only flown the one time. Yeah. So far. But I can say, brother, I get it. If I owned a plane, I wouldn't want the government to seize it. And I'd fight all the way to the Supreme Court, too. Sure, of course. I'd fight the law and hopefully I would win. So for now, though, let's take a little break. And after these messages, we'll get to know Ken Juby.

17:01 All right.

17:01 All right. Okay. So far, we've covered the history of the state of Alaska's legal restrictions on buying, selling, and smuggling alcohol, as well as the penalties, up to including, say, the forfeiture of a plane, which would be devastating for like a bush pilot for like my man Ken Juppie.

17:36 Sure.

17:36 So who is this Ken Juppie? Well, great question, Elizabeth. Let's get into it.

17:40 Let's get into it.

17:42 At the moment, he is 82 years old.

17:44 Oh.

17:44 He may be 83 years old now. I don't know exactly.

17:47 You know, ballpark.

17:48 But he hasn't always been that old.

17:50 I thought he was born 83 years old.

17:52 When he was a much younger man, just like me, he always wanted to fly. But unlike me, as a young man, he did something about it. He joined the Air Force. But although he was in the Air Force, he didn't get to fly. Instead, he was a mechanic. He primarily fixed B-52s, you know, those like big-ass bomber planes.

18:09 Yeah, with the Love Shack and everything.

18:12 Yes, exactly. Now, the B-52 replaced the earlier World War II era propeller-powered bomber planes, the B-17 Flying Fortress, like the Memphis Belle. And since the B-52 replaced those as the Cold War era equivalent, it was nicknamed the Stratofortress, just like the Flying Fortress. It was like, we go higher.

18:31 Even higher.

18:32 Yeah, exactly. So these new bombers in the 1950s, they ditched the propellers and instead they had six turboprop engines, which meant a B-52 could fly much further, much higher, much longer.

18:43 Yeah.

18:44 And that's what Ken Juppie learned to fix. But he didn't get to fly them.

18:49 So then if he can fix them, he knows everything about them.

18:52 Totally. He knows all the mechanics of the engines, the wings, the rivets, all of it, right? So it wasn't until the late 60s after he left the Air Force that he gets his private pilot's license and then later his commercial pilot's license. And then in the 1970s, He leaves the lower 48. He moves up to Alaska, and that's where he becomes a professional bush pilot. Living my dream.

19:13 Awesome.

19:14 Now, at first, Ken flew for a small charter company out of where? Ketchikan, Alaska. Ketchikan. You've been there.

19:20 You've seen it. I've been there.

19:21 So he primarily flew for the U.S. Forest Service, bringing supplies to remote outposts, ferrying forest rangers to and fro, because it's really key for them. They're like, yeah, I'm both your taxi and your long-haul trucker. Right. So- He flew these charter flights. He's also taking hunters and fishermen and locals wherever they needed to go. He also flew search and rescue missions as well as delivering medical supplies and doing like medevac flights to get people to hospitals if the need be.

19:49 Yeah.

19:50 So eventually Ken doing this saves up enough to start his own charter company, which he named Ken Air.

19:56 Ken Air.

19:57 Yes.

19:58 I like it. It's simple.

19:59 Right to the point. He's like, I'm Ken. This is Ken Air. That's amazing. You're flying on. Ken Air.

20:04 Ken Air.

20:05 So it was appropriately named because it was, as I said, just him, Ken, and he had just one plane, a 1969 Cessna U-206D. I have no idea what that means. Elizabeth, I didn't expect you to know what a 1969 Cessna U-206D is.

20:20 I guess I could probably tell you it's a plane I would not fly in.

20:24 You are 100% correct right out of the gate. So let me tell you, it's a seaplane. With the dual pontoons.

20:31 Oh, cool.

20:31 So you can land on like calm waters or on land because there's wheels in there. So it's like, you know, as I said, the ideal plane, it's flying a duck.

20:38 Yeah.

20:39 And as one plane website put it, the Cessna U-206D is, quote, the flying pickup truck of general aviation. Six seats, double cargo doors, and a job to do since 1964.

20:53 That's incredible.

20:54 Right?

20:54 The flying pickup truck.

20:55 Totally.

20:56 Kind of like how I say that Aer Lingus is the Greyhound of the sky.

21:01 Do you really? Yeah.

21:03 It's how the service is inside an Aer Lingus flight. So this is the pickup truck.

21:09 Of this guy. It really puts me right there on the flight. Right? You get it. I know what to expect. Yeah. So Ken would fly his Cessna U-206D all over Alaska. He operated this one-man air taxi service. He takes people and supplies wherever they need to go in his flying pickup truck. Now, being a pilot and a longtime Alaska resident, he was well aware of the dry village laws. Mm-hmm.

21:31 And as such, he would never agree to knowingly transport alcohol to a dry village, knowing that if he did, it would mean punishments for him and the forfeiture of his beloved airplane, which is his only airplane. He doesn't have a backup plane. Now, that said, Alaska is also known for its, how should we put this? Let's say it's libertarian bend.

21:51 Yeah, I think that's a good way to describe it.

21:53 People go up there to live free and be unhassled.

21:56 Yeah, exactly.

21:57 Which means when Ken would fly someone across the vast wilderness of Alaska, he would ask them if they had any alcohol with them. But he would also never demand to inspect their luggage. their packages, like on the hunt for illegal booze. As he said, he believes that would, quote, be invasive and demeaning.

22:13 Well, and he's asking them and they're attesting to it. That's, you know, he's not a private investigator.

22:18 Yeah. And he respected their privacy and he would take his passengers at their word. And importantly, you're right. There is no law in Alaska that requires that he inspect his passenger's person or their luggage for illegal booze. He's not like a customs inspector.

22:31 Right, right.

22:31 Right. And like I said, he was happy to take them at their word. It was like, you know, man or woman, I respect you. You're going to be straight up with me. Sure. Now, let's fast forward to April 3rd, 2012. Veteran bush pilot had a job to do. He'd been hired to fly a passenger from Fairbanks where she'd done some shopping and was going to take her back home to the village of Beaver, Alaska.

22:56 Mm-hmm.

22:56 Which is a fully dry village, meaning it has a complete ban against the sale, importation, or possession of alcohol. Okay. It was a rather recent change since the fine folks of Beaver, Alaska had passed that local law against alcohol only eight years earlier in 2004.

23:13 Really?

23:13 Yeah, they'd updated it. They had options earlier, like, you know, because when they said they came up with this local option that they didn't act on, and they're like, you know what? It's getting bad.

23:21 We're going all in.

23:22 Yeah, so... Now, naturally, Ken was aware of this, as was his passenger. She was a repeat customer, a woman he'd flown to and fro many times. And also, she's this fine, upstanding member of society. And her husband, for instance, was the postmaster for Beaver, Alaska.

23:38 Oh, okay, yeah.

23:38 These people are, like, rooted in Beaver.

23:40 Good citizens.

23:40 Yeah.

23:41 And so Ken didn't think he needed to go hunting through her luggage for booze, not that he would do anyway.

23:45 Mm-hmm.

23:46 And, you know, and he took her at her word. And this flight would turn out to be not only a fateful trip for both of them, but one that would come to define the next decade of his life.

23:55 Oh, no.

23:56 But rather than me tell you about it, Elizabeth, close your eyes.

23:59 My eyes are closed.

24:00 I want you to picture it. It's the morning of April 3rd, 2012. And at the moment, you are in a grocery store in Fairbanks, Alaska. You've grabbed nearly all of the items from your shopping list. All that's left to get is a gift you want to grab for your husband for his birthday. As the grocery store's speakers bump an 80s pop song that you haven't heard in what seems like forever, you hum along as you try to decide what to grab from the beer aisle. Now, you know your husband is a bud man, but you can't decide if he was serious about wanting to shed a few pounds and you should maybe get him Bud Light or his traditional Budweiser. You decide to splurge a little and get both. You grab two cases of Budweiser

24:46 cans and add them to your shopping cart. Then you reach and grab two six-packs of Bud Light, 16-ounce tall boys. And for good measure, you also grab two more six-packs of Budweiser tall boys. You want your husband to have plenty of beer for his birthday. As you wheel your grocery cart up to the cashier, the wheels seem to wobble in time with the 80s pop song, It's a silly little moment, but you smile anyway, certain you've gotten your husband a nice little birthday surprise. It's one of the moments when it feels like all is right with the world. After you pay for your groceries, you wave over to the waiting cab, the one that you took to the grocery store. You push the cart over to the minivan. The driver opens the door for you. You

25:27 take the two cases of Budweiser and you put that into your luggage and then zip it shut. You leave the four six-packs of Tallboys in the paper bag with the rest of your groceries. You tell your cab driver you're ready to go to the seaport, where the seaplane taxi you hired is waiting for you to fly you back home to the village of Bieber, Alaska. As the cab driver navigates the streets of Fairbanks, you hum along with yet another 80s pop song. It's almost like you have your own little soundtrack of 80s pop songs this morning.

25:55 You smile to yourself, thinking about how happy and surprised your husband will be when he sees your birthday surprise. He works hard as the village's postmaster, and you'd like him to enjoy his special day. When the minivan taxi pulls up to the seaport, you spy the seaplane taxi waiting there for you. The pilot, who you've flown with numerous times, is also there doing his pre-flight checklist. As he checks the wings for bird strikes, you pay the cab driver and you pull your luggage down to the dock to the seaport. The cab driver is kind enough to carry your paper bag of groceries. What you don't see is that there are two Alaska State Troopers parked near the seaport. They watch you as you struggle with

26:35 the weight of your suitcase. They also note the cab driver and the paper bag of groceries he's carrying. Their suspicions are alerted. Something seems hinky about you and your extra heavy luggage. The two Alaskan State Troopers pop open their truck doors and step out of their patrol truck. They allow you to get to the end of the seaport dock. They pass the cab driver on his way back to his minivan. Meanwhile, the pilot of the seaplane helps you load your luggage into a Cessna. He asks if you got everything you needed. You tell him sunnily, I did. Thanks, Ken. Appreciate your help. Once the luggage is loaded, you and Ken both hear it at the exact same time. A stern voice says, freeze. Step away

27:15 from the seaplane. You both turn to see the two Alaskan state troopers. They look like they're all business. One of the state troopers says, I'm going to need to search your seaplane. You hear the pilot, Ken, say, uh, what seems to be the problem, officers? As seagulls call to each other, your mind races. What did you do wrong?

27:35 And then you hear a small voice answer. It's the beard, dummy. Ken, the pilot, agrees to let the state troopers search his plane. As one state trooper watches you both, the other opens the door to the plane and rifles through your groceries. He pulls out a six-pack of Budweiser Tallboys. He spins around and says in an accusatory tone, What do we have here? You and the pilot, Ken, both stare at the six-pack in his hand. You gulp, knowing that your special birthday surprise for your husband just became evidence for commission of a crime. Not to mention the two cases of Budweiser in your luggage. When the state troopers find those, it'll look extra bad. But what you don't know is that your birthday surprise means your friend, Ken, the pilot,

28:19 also just committed a crime, and the punishment for him will be far worse than the one you face. Even though it was you who bought the beer. So there you go, Elizabeth.

28:28 Oh my God, poor Ken.

28:30 That is how Ken Juppie and you, his passenger, both became outlaws for smuggling booze into Beaver, Alaska.

28:36 She knew.

28:37 She's like big dog in town. They both acted like they were unaware, but I'm like, you bought.

28:42 You live there.

28:42 You live there and you know that you can't have any beer.

28:45 Right.

28:45 So it may be like, oh, I thought the old rules, I could bring it into town, but I can't buy it.

28:49 That was eight years prior, right?

28:50 Eight years, yes.

28:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:51 So as we just heard, Ken was unaware that you, the passenger, were smuggling beer in your luggage.

28:56 Sorry, Ken.

28:57 However, the state troopers would later testify in court that the six packs of Budweiser Tallboys were really easily visible in the shopping bag, and he could not claim to be unaware of them.

29:07 Mm-hmm.

29:08 And thus, as a result, Ken was charged with the misdemeanor of knowingly transporting illegal beer into a dry village.

29:14 Ridiculous.

29:15 His passenger was also charged with the same misdemeanor. So, what happens next, now that Ken has run afoul of the law? Yeah. Great question, Elizabeth.

29:22 I know.

29:22 I'm so happy you asked.

29:23 Me too.

29:24 His passenger took the easier path. She pleaded guilty. As a first-time offender, she was handed a misdemeanor and a small fine, $ 1, 500. She's only going to lose the beer. Yeah. Now, Ken, who despite it being his first offense, he risked losing his seaplane. So he kind of fought the chaos. He went to trial. And after a trial by a jury of his peers, he was found guilty. Importantly, his guilty verdict did depend on whether or not he knew the alcohol was on his plane. Once the guilty verdict was read, the trial judge sentenced Ken to the maximum sentence under Alaskan state law. He was handed a $ 1, 500 fine personally, as well as a second $ 1, 500 fine for his company, Ken Air, which was just him and his plane. He

30:07 was also sentenced to three days in jail. Technically, he was sentenced to 180 days in jail, With 177 of those days suspended, so he only had to do three days in jail. Okay. He was also given three years of probation.

30:21 Whoa.

30:21 Yeah, so that left the question, what would happen to his seaplane, which was involved in this illegal importation and transportation of booze? Yeah. So his Cessna U-206D seaplane was worth an estimated $ 95, 000. Whoa. And the state of Alaska opted to seize it.

30:37 Of course they did.

30:38 Like, man, Kem was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up. You can find me. You can jail me. But you ain't taking my seaplane.

30:44 Yeah.

30:44 And so he fought the case harder. For the last 14 years, he's been fighting the same case from local trial judge to appellate court to the Alaskan Supreme Court and now all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

30:57 Nice.

30:58 Yeah, I like it.

30:59 I like it. I like it a lot.

31:00 Now, you may be wondering the laws in Alaska about dry villages and alcohol, as well as the risk of forfeiture, they all seem pretty clear cut. So how the hell is Ken fighting his case? Like what legal legs does he have to stand on? Fantastic question, Elizabeth.

31:13 I'm desperate to know.

31:14 You can really tell you're the daughter of a lawyer. I really am.

31:17 So many questions.

31:18 It comes through. So there are two legal legs he has to stand on. For one, the plane doesn't belong to his charter company. It belongs to Ken personally.

31:26 Right.

31:27 Which complicates how his seaplane is involved in the commission of a crime or not. Yeah. Secondly, Ken argues... that seizing his seaplane is what in legal terms is called a violation of the excessive fines clause of the Eighth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

31:41 Oh, that's good.

31:42 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In other words, he's arguing that the state of Alaska's plan to seize his plane violates his constitutional rights, no matter what the state of Alaska chooses to believe in its courts. Right. He's like, lower 48 says you ain't nothing. Yeah. Now, as a little reminder, the Eighth Amendment states that, quote, Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Yeah. And most people focus on that last part, the no cruel and unusual punishments for the Eighth Amendment. Right.

32:11 But the excessive fines is also key, as is excessive bail for people trying to do like bail advocacy.

32:17 Yeah.

32:17 Anyway, in terms of that first legal leg Ken plans to stand on. To argue for his rights. He's going to argue that the state of Alaska cannot seize his plane because it was never involved in the commission of a crime since, as you recall from the picture, his plane never left the ground.

32:31 I was going to say, so she, they're in Fairbanks.

32:33 Yes.

32:34 She buys the booze in fairbanks.

32:36 In fairbanks puts it how did they look.

32:38 At a manifest to see where he was gonna go he had to say where he was flying what if he changed his mind yeah but he never took off yeah it's not like they pulled him over in the sky on his way there and didn't nab him when he landed yeah it's like if.

32:51 You're sitting in your car and your keys are in the ignition that's one thing if your keys are not in the ignition that's another thing you can be sitting in the driver's seat drunk as hell as long as your keys are not in the ignition yeah your keys are in the ignition in your drunk as hell it's a DUI you don't have to be driving it's the intent to drive well in this case his keys were not in the ignition So how could he violate the laws of the village of Beaver, Alaska, if he wasn't even on the way there or his keys are indicating he had the intent to fly?

33:17 That right there. And I just, you know, this is my problem with forfeiture laws, too, because there's ulterior motives.

33:24 Oh, yeah.

33:24 The benefit to the state. Now, in his first trial, the court agreed with him. It did not rule to seize his plane, even though he was guilty. And he was fined and they had to go to jail. They said, no, we're not taking your plane. But the appellate court, when he appealed that, they took a different legal opinion. So the Alaska Court of Appeals held that the statute mandated the forfeiture of his seaplane. And I quote, regardless of whether the alcoholic beverages are actually transported toward their destinations.

33:53 But he's in the jurisdiction where you can purchase.

33:55 Okay. Yeah. So the ruling, that ruling led to some new legal wrangling, which forced the issue of his second legal leg on which Ken planned to stand, the part about excessive fines clause of the Eighth Amendment.

34:06 Yeah.

34:07 So the question of whether the forfeiture of a seaplane was an excessive fine or not came down to this previous court case called the United States versus Bajikajian. Now, what is the U.S. versus Bajikajian? I'm so glad you asked, Elizabeth, because as you likely inferred, it's a legal precedent. Yes.

34:25 And as such, that prior case would determine if Ken must forfeit his $ 95, 000 seaplane for a couple of illegal six-packs of Budweiser and Bud Light.

34:34 Yeah, yeah.

34:35 But before we get into all that, let's take a little break, listen to some ads, and when we're back, I'll tell you who Bajikajian is, and we'll go back to court. And we're back, Elizabeth.

35:04 We're back.

35:05 So are you ready to learn who Bajikajian is?

35:07 Yes, please.

35:08 Good, good. His government name is Josep Bajikajian. And I know his name may sound like he's an Armenian national, but Hosep Bajikajian is a Syrian national.

35:18 Oh, interesting. I was totally thinking an Armenian.

35:21 I did too. When I read it, I was like, he's an Ian. So I'm like, oh, that's an Armenian. Yeah, exactly.

35:24 Exactly.

35:25 So the story goes on June 9th, 1994, Hosep Bajikajian, his wife and two daughters were all at Los Angeles International Airport, aka LAX.

35:34 Mm-hmm.

35:34 They were in the international terminal and the family had tickets for a flight to Cyprus via a stop in Italy. So they were flying to Italy, but technically they're on to Cyprus. Now, while they're waiting for their flight, one of those dogs that's trained to sniff out U.S. currency due to the unique smell of money is signaled to its handler that the family had a large quantity of money in their luggage.

35:57 Okay. And what's, you can only, what, 10 grand or something?

35:59 Yeah, it's 10 grand. So after the dog alerted, the customs inspectors approached the family, informed them that they are legally required to report if they are traveling with any money greater than 10 grand. Hosep tells the customs inspectors that, oh, I have eight grand in my luggage. And my wife has seven grand in her luggage. And so that's, you know, we're under the 10 grand.

36:19 And my six-year-old has eight grand.

36:22 Exactly. And this is all the money that we have to report. And the customs inspector was like, okay, let's see about that. And. Customs inspector took the family to a search area and proceeded to open all of their carry-on luggage, the wife's purse, Josep's wallet. And guess what, Elizabeth? Turns out they had more than eight grand and seven grand that Josep claimed they had on them.

36:42 Oh, no.

36:43 Want to guess how much cash they had in their carry-on luggage?

36:45 $ 7. 9 million. Close. Relative to like a penny.

36:46 Sure.

36:46 $ 357, 144. Whoa.

36:47 Yes.

36:47 More than a third of a million dollars. Whoa.

36:59 In cash on them.

37:01 Wow. That's a lot of real estate. That's bulk.

37:04 Yes.

37:05 It's a lot of space. That's more than like in my wife's purse, you will find.

37:08 They're going to put the heavy, the red heavy luggage tag on the suitcase.

37:14 So, and obviously this is way more than the 15 grand they claim to have. So at that point, the customs inspector seized their money and Josep Bajikajian was arrested and taken into custody. So what do we learn here? I don't know about you, but I learned that if you're going to smuggle 350 large out of America, put it in your checked luggage and pray they don't lose your luggage. No, I'm kidding. Kind of.

37:35 You know, like the dog must have signaled like so strongly that it like peed itself.

37:41 Totally right. So that's really what I learned is that there are dogs roaming the airport sniffing for dollars. Did you know that? I did not know that.

37:48 I thought there was like drugs.

37:50 Yes. I thought dogs were only sniffing for drugs and residue of explosives.

37:53 Yeah.

37:54 I didn't know there was a third secret type of dog.

37:56 The cash dog.

37:57 Yeah, the money dogs checking for dollar dollar bills, y'all. Anyway, once Josep Bajikajian was busted and tossed into the American justice system, he was charged with violating the Bank Secrecy Act, which is a law that requires travelers to declare any money on them that exceeds 10 grand.

38:13 And so he's Syrian.

38:15 Yes.

38:15 Likely Syrian-Armenian.

38:17 Most likely. I'm assuming.

38:19 I have friends who are like Lebanese-Armenians.

38:22 He could be ethnically Armenian. He's a Syrian national.

38:24 But he's going to Cyprus. Interesting.

38:27 Yes. So he was charged with lying to a customs officer. That lesser charge was soon dropped. But his money troubles weren't so easy to dismiss. Yes. Eventually, Bajikajian did plead guilty to failure to report the money that he'd attempted to smuggle out of the U.S.

38:42 Okay.

38:43 Now, under U.S. law, since he failed to report it, the U.S. seized all $ 357, 144, and it was to be forfeited to the government. Yeah. You don't get a penny back.

38:54 Ridiculous.

38:55 That seemed harsh. One might say excessive.

38:57 I would say it's excessive.

38:58 Especially since the money was not the proceeds from a crime. It was legitimately the family's money. And the reason why they were flying with that much money is that they were returning to Cyprus to pay a debt.

39:09 Okay.

39:10 They desperately needed that money.

39:12 Yeah, yeah.

39:13 So when the case went to trial, the judge agreed that it was indeed excessive for the government to seize the $ 357, 144 and not give it back to the family.

39:23 Yeah.

39:23 The U.S. District Judge ruled that the forfeiture was a violation of Bajikajian's Eighth Amendment rights and that the fine, the forfeiture of the money, was excessive. And so instead, the judge ruled that Josep Bajikajian should only have to forfeit about fifteen thousand dollars and be fined five thousand for the offense.

39:40 OK.

39:40 Much more reasonable. Yeah.

39:42 I would think give him a fine and then say you can't bring it with you. You got to leave it here.

39:47 Sure, if you want to get into that. Personally, I don't care. I'm like, take whatever money you want. I don't give a shit.

39:51 Honestly, who cares? Who knows who cares? Right?

39:54 And I'm like, what are we getting on people's business? Right. So anyway, so Bajikaji, and he was also looking at six months in federal prison, but the trial judge also thought that was excessive and instead gave him three years of probation.

40:05 Okay.

40:06 So- That all seems fair to me, right? I mean, I'm no trial judge. I'm not a lawyer. But I am an American citizen, so I have an opinion. And that all sounds fair to me, reasonable. And I'm like, yes, I vote for that. Now, the federal prosecutor was like, oh, hell no. Oh, no. Yes, it decided to appeal the district judge's decision. So the case went to the U.S.

40:26 Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, you know, the Western Circuit.

40:29 Yeah, they're a little loosey-goosey.

40:31 Totally. So after hearing the case, the Ninth Circuit Court was loosey-goosey, like you said. They're like, yeah, that all sounds fair to us, man. I want to go hit the beach. They ruled in favor of the lower district court's judge's ruling. And in fact, they went further and said that any forfeiture of money was clearly unconstitutional. They said the big U word, right? So we're thinking all good, right? Sure. Unfortunately, no.

40:55 Because Hostet Bajikajian's legal team had not appealed the forfeiture. So if the family wanted to get the money back, the $ 357, 144, they would have to continue their court fight, even though they've already won.

41:07 Sure.

41:08 Okay. And that's how his case went before the U.S. Supreme Court. So in November of 1997, the Supreme Court heard Bajikajian's case. The justices considered the merits of the case, whether or not the forfeiture of the family's money was constitutional or not. Elizabeth, it came down to a few different legal arguments. For one, there's what's called the in rem forfeiture, which questions whether the government could seize the so-called guilty property. That's what the in rem forfeiture means. Now, rather than punish the offender with, say, a fine, they're going to punish the property.

41:42 Sure.

41:43 And the Supreme Court justices considered the case and they wrote in their opinion, and I quote, The guilty property theory behind in-rem forfeiture can be traced to the Bible, which describes property being sacrificed to God as a means of atoning for an offense. See Exodus 21-28. In medieval Europe and at common law, this concept evolved into the law of Deodon, in which offending property was condemned and confiscated by the church or the crown in remediation for the harm it had caused. that it had caused, not the offender, right? So following the standard of legal practice dating back to Exodus 21-28, which I have to say I did not know so much of our constitutional law was rooted and formed by the basis and dictates of

42:25 the Old Testament, but I digress. As the Supreme Court justices later argued, and I quote, civil in rem forfeiture is not punishment of the wrongdoer for his criminal offense because they were viewed as non-punitive. Such forfeiture traditionally were considered to occupy a place outside the domain of the excessive fines clause.

42:45 Yeah.

42:45 So that's not looking good for Bajikaji.

42:47 No, it's not.

42:48 It's not about his Eighth Amendment rights.

42:50 Yeah.

42:50 Okay. That's a lot of legalese. But in essence, because the forfeiture was treated as the same sort of act as when people would sacrifice a lamb to atone for their sins before God, if you fast forward to the 20th century of America and in rem forfeiture was seen as a similar act. And however, and this is key, in 1970, the U.S. federal government updated their policy on forfeitures.

43:12 And as the Supreme Court justices argued, they had blurred the line between in rem forfeitures and in personam forfeitures.

43:21 Okay.

43:21 Which I know you speak some Latin, as you might guess, in persona means a personal forfeiture. You're punishing the person, not the thing itself. If we put this in Old Testament terms, instead of sacrificing a lamb to atone before God, you would sacrifice yourself or perhaps a part of yourself. Like you'd cut off an arm and be like, are you happy now, God? So this reason why this matters is that starting with the very first Congress, back when the ink was barely dry on the Constitution, the founders had ruled decisively against such forfeitures. As the Supreme Court justices noted, quote, no conviction or judgment shall work corruption of blood or any forfeiture of estate. That's the founder's words.

44:02 So in other words, there's no legal requirement for a personal sacrifice.

44:06 Sure.

44:07 Like cutting off your arm to get right with the Old Testament God.

44:09 Right.

44:10 Which means we have to go back to the 1970 changes to federal law, which started with the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970. The federal government changed the laws around civil forfeiture in order to combat drug trafficking and organized crime.

44:25 Yeah.

44:25 Once they basically started dealing with the cocaine kingpins, they're like, we need to take all their stuff, right?

44:30 Yeah.

44:30 So the feds determined was that money could be forfeited due to its, quote, instrumentality to the crimes. As the Supreme Court justices argued, quote, according to the government, the unreported cash is an instrumentality because it does not merely facilitate a violation of law, but is the very sine qua non of the crime. That last Latin part means without which nothing. So in other words, the money is both evidenced and an instrument of the crime.

44:58 Okay, yeah.

44:58 And thus to seize it is not unconstitutional because it's not an in personam seizure. Right. Getting back to the founders.

45:05 Right, right.

45:06 So now in a rare turn of events, at the Supreme Court at least, it was Justice Clarence Thomas who wrote the assenting opinion.

45:14 Huh.

45:14 That's big because that guy rarely does that.

45:16 He rarely writes anything.

45:18 I've read that Justice Thomas doesn't even ask questions when a case is before the court. There's been years when he never spoke in court.

45:26 He's just daydreaming about vacations and RVs and.

45:32 Anyway, the dissenting justices primarily focused on the fact that Bajikajian had lied to the customs inspector and acted in a suspicious way, which was enough reason for the government to seize his $ 357, 144. But Justice Thomas had something in legalese for that claim. And he wrote in his opinion, and I quote, Contrary to the dissent's contention, the nature of the non-reporting offense in this case was not altered by respondents' lies or by the suspicious circumstances surrounding his transportation of his currency. A single willful failure to declare the currency constitutes the crime, the gravity of which is not exacerbated or mitigated by respondent's violation was unrelated to any other illegal activities. The money was the proceeds of

46:20 legal activity and was to be used to repay a lawful debt. Whatever his other vices, respondent does not fit into the class of persons for whom the statute was principally designed. He is not a money launderer a drug trafficker, or a tax evader. And thus, in summation, Justice Thomas wrote that, quote, the only question before this court is whether the full forfeiture of respondent's $ 357, 144 is constitutional under the Excessive Fines Clause. We hold that it is not.

46:52 So he put it right back underneath the Eighth Amendment as opposed to the previous legal arguments. Right. And boom, just like that, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the government's request of a full seizure of Josep Bajikajian's money.

47:05 Nice.

47:05 Elizabeth, if you're curious how the justices ruled on this one, I do have the breakdown for you.

47:10 Oh, thank you.

47:11 Yeah. The Chief Justice, William Rehnquist, Justice Anthony Kennedy, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, and Justice Antonin Scalia were in the dissent. Okay. If you kept track, that was four. Yeah, yeah. While Justice Clarence Thomas, Justice John Paul Stevens... Justice David Souter, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Justice Stephen Breyer were in the ascent. It went 5-4. And the split was not based on liberal versus conservative divides, which we're not used to these days. Right. Which rarely seems to happen on the Supreme Court. But back then, it was basically a matter of justice. They were like, this is what I think.

47:46 It was just opinion. And they just split across the lines. Yeah.

47:49 Interesting.

47:50 Anyway, what does all this mean for Bush pilot Ken Juppie and his case where he might lose his $ 95, 000 seaplane over a couple of six packs of Budweiser and Bud Light? Great question, Elizabeth. I'm glad you're still with me.

48:01 I know.

48:01 In his legal team's petition put before the Supreme Court, they argued that, and I quote, the criminal statute the trial court remarked recognizes a hierarchy of seriousness among offenses, yet the airplane forfeiture provision applies with equal force to all. So they're calling out that this that it doesn't matter if it's a misdemeanor, they're going to take the plane. Right.

48:22 And this is where their case hinges. The question is, is that an excessive fine and a violation of Juppie's Eighth Amendment rights? And if you go back to what I just told you about Bajikajian, he was not doing a commission of a crime. He's not a money launderer, tax evader. So his Eighth Amendment rights should be secure.

48:39 Sure.

48:40 However, his legal team argues that, quote, while Juppie's conduct was serious, it was not nearly as egregious as other conduct that could result in mandatory forfeiture of a plane under the applicable statutes. And that, quote, the gravity of harm was likewise low relative to other Alaskan state offenses.

48:57 They're like, can we get... like some perspective here, people. Yeah, yeah. Now, to make their case, they also argued that, quote, Juppie was convicted of a Class A misdemeanor, the court reasoned, and even among the universe of misdemeanors, one could imagine more egregious ones. The passenger's alcohol was not wine or distilled spirits, but two cases of Budweiser beer, four six-packs of 60 cans of Budweiser and Bud Light beer. They're like, look.

49:23 It's water beer anyway.

49:25 Yes, basically. Look, he loved that they want to make a distinction that he wasn't smuggling moonshine or red wine. He was flying some Budweiser Tallboys. And they're like, how could smuggling this watered down rice beer be a major crime?

49:37 Well, but if you look at Thomas's analysis of it, there was no crime.

49:43 Yeah.

49:44 With the money. But here, there is a crime.

49:47 There is a crime. So they're saying it's an unreasonable fine.

49:50 Yeah, and I still go back to, I don't believe there was a crime because he didn't physically... land in a dry village.

49:59 Yeah he hadn't taken off like i mean i don't even know what the propeller.

50:01 Started doesn't matter he's not there plus.

50:03 There was also that you know as you point out the key factor of the crime since he never took off the tall boys were never transported they never made it to the dry village of beaver and the tall boys were not illegal in fairbanks so and his passenger purchased them where it was legal so what exactly is the crime Now, the Alaskan prosecutors have argued that the crux of the case for them is that Juppie's actions risk the many ills associated with alcohol abuse in the state of Alaska. Namely, and I quote, increased crime, alcoholism, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, substantial costs on public health and the administration of justice and death. So I don't know about you, but I doubt a couple of Budweiser tall

50:41 boys could constitute a risk of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. But like I said, I'm not a judge. I'm not a lawyer. That said, Ken's legal team did jump on this line of reasoning and noted that the Alaskan court had argued that, quote, it is clear to us that the legislature determined that the harm from even a six pack of beer knowingly imported into a dry village is severe enough to warrant forfeiture of an aircraft. So they're basically pointing out like, do you hear what they're saying?

51:08 This is unreasonable.

51:09 Yeah, yeah.

51:09 And I think they have good grounds to stand on that. Now, Elizabeth, you're also not a judge or a lawyer.

51:14 Nope, not at all.

51:15 I respect your opinion. So what do you think? Is the Alaskan court being reasonable or unreasonable?

51:21 I think the whole thing's Bogus. It's out of order. You're all out of order.

51:27 And do you think that Ken should have to forfeit his plane over even a single six-pack.

51:31 Of Budweiser Tallboys? No.

51:33 Now, in a press release about his case going before the Supreme Court, Ken said that, and I quote, I'm in my 80s now, and I've been fighting this for over a decade because I see it as my duty to ensure that the Bill of Rights actually means something in protecting against government overreach.

51:50 I'm with you, Ken.

51:51 Yeah, the libertarian really jumped out there.

51:53 Yeah, right?

51:53 So the Supreme Court will hear this case in the winter of 2026, 2027, and a decision is expected by their, you know, they do their big reporting in June and July. So July of 2027, by then they should have something. So if you had to guess, how do you think This Supreme Court will rule. Will they agree that it's a violation of its Eighth Amendment rights?

52:14 Yeah, I feel like... I don't know.

52:17 Will the Supreme Court let Ken keep his seaplane or will he lose it?

52:20 I could see it being like a, you know, 8-1. You know what I mean?

52:24 Oh, really? Like a sweep.

52:26 Yeah.

52:26 Practically.

52:27 Practically. I think that they'll let him keep the plane.

52:30 Okay. I'd like to see that. Now, secondly, I got to ask you, what's a ridiculous takeaway here?

52:35 Oh, man. You know... I don't drink.

52:39 Yeah.

52:40 And I respect people like if they want to. And I also know there's a, there's a big alcohol problem.

52:46 Oh, definitely.

52:47 You know, cause like people wander out and pass out and die in the cold. And there's the, the drunk driving is in like the bigger cities is bad anyway.

52:55 And then also domestic abuse and drunk. I mean, it's like Superbowl every night over there. Right.

52:59 And I, I get it. Like I get their reasoning behind this, but I am so stuck on the fact that, they were anticipating Ken going somewhere. Yes. And, you know, and I also, as I mentioned, civil forfeiture, like drug forfeitures and all that stuff, I think is so out of control. I just, I can't, can't get with that.

53:20 And so, you know, I think unless we're talking about like a gun or some type of weapon, then you can, you can seize that, but you're seizing a person's house. Yeah.

53:27 Or they do it with cars. You get pulled over and then you lose your car. I think, you know, I, I, I'm, sensitive to the need to protect the society, but at the same time, I'm sensitive to the need to protect the society, to protect Ken's livelihood. And, you know, I think it's ridiculous to take that. Ridiculous, see?

53:49 There it is.

53:49 Zarin, what's your takeaway?

53:51 My ridiculous takeaway, thanks for asking, Elizabeth, is If somebody tried to take my plane like this, and I don't have one, but I'm just imagining myself with one, and I finally have my dream seaplane, I'm flying to Canada and saying, to hell with all of you.

54:04 I was going to say, I could see you just fleeing the country.

54:07 I got a plane. What are you talking about? What about your business? I can fly Canadians just as easily as Alaskans.

54:14 Exactly.

54:15 They need me in none of it. So there you go. I'm not going to fight this stuff with y'all. No, no. So there you go. So should we maybe rinse this one down with a talkback?

54:26 Oh, I would love that.

54:27 All right.

54:27 Producer D, what you got for us?

54:31 Talkbacks.

54:33 Oh, my God. Did he just say that? I love G.

54:41 Hello, Zarin and Elizabeth. I was the victim of a ridiculous crime after listening to your podcast all day on a road trip. A hungry thief saw that I had left half of a loaf of bread and the crumbs at the bottom of a bag of corn chips visible in my car overnight and broke the window in order to take them. If that was really the motive for the crime, I can't even be mad. I love your show. Bye.

55:05 Do like the Jean Valjean of it all.

55:09 Was the criminal a bear? Well, I mean, honestly.

55:12 If you're breaking in for bread, I'm with him. Like, God, if you're that desperate. But also, man, it's an inconvenience and it's expensive.

55:22 Oh, God, it's so annoying. As a hassle, like I got to replace this for like 88 cents of bread. I guess now $ 5 worth of bread.

55:28 So I think everyone's the loser in this one.

55:31 Yeah. Sorry about what happened to you, brother.

55:33 I hate that for you.

55:34 Well, as always, you can find us online at Ridiculous Crime on Instagram. That's where you can find pictures. You get to see Ken's seaplane. Maybe even I'll post a picture of me flying a plane. Who knows? Maybe we can see. But also you can go to Blue Sky if you want to catch up. We've got links to past episodes and you can see some stuff there. And also we have our website, RidiculousCrime.com, where you can find cool artwork and you can buy some merch if you'd like.

55:59 Mm-hmm.

56:00 You can also email us if you want at RidiculousCrime at gmail.com if you have a story for us or if you want to confess to a ridiculous crime. Hopefully one with the statute of limitations has run out. Or if you have a message for me, Elizabeth, or Producer Dave, or Terry, please hit us up. Start your email. Dear Terry and or Producer D, obviously we love your talkback.

56:20 So please go to the iHeart app, download it, leave a talkback, and maybe you'll hear your voice here. We'd love to hear it. Thank you for listening. We will catch you next crime. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zarin Burnett. Produced and edited by the Chief Justice of our Ridiculous Supreme Court, Mr. Dave Kustin. Our Ridiculous Assistant is the fictional mayor of Sicily, Alaska, in the borough of Arrowhead County, Terry Maldonado Fong. Research is by our noted smuggler of illegal Bartles and James wine coolers, Marissa Brown. Our theme song is by two men who still miss the Bud Bowl when those animated cans would play football, Thomas Lee and Travis Dutton. The host wardrobe

57:03 provided by Botany 500. Producer Dave's wardrobe provided by Mr. Guy of Beverly Hills. Guest hair and makeup by Sparkle Shot and Mr. Andre. Executive producers are Ben, you know, I once rode a Clydesdale horse that used to pull the Budweiser stagecoach, Bolin. And Noel, did you get to brush that tuft of hair over their hooves? I've always wanted to do that.

57:30 Ridiculous Crime.

57:33 Say it one more time. Ridiculous Crime.

57:37 Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.