Lucy Jackson: The Big C, Big Laughs & Brilliant Thoroughbreds

0:00Speaker A Hey, listeners. So today we want to chat to you about Animal Friends pet Insurance.

0:04Speaker B Yes, yes, we do, but it's not what you think. We're not here to give you a great long speech about insurance.

0:10Speaker A I mean, that is a bit surprising because we know how you love to go on, Simon. Anyway, did you know that Animal Friends Pet Insurance was founded in 1998 on a commitment to create better lives for animals?

0:24Speaker B No, Jenny, I didn't know that. I also didn't know they provided horse insurance cover alongside dog and cat cover until recently either.

0:31Speaker A Yeah, and over the years they have actually supported more than 830 animal welfare charities here in the UK and around the world. And one of those charities is the Amazing Blue Cross. They have supported sick, injured and homeless pets since 1897 and are very close to our hearts here at Shut up and Ride.

0:53Speaker B Yes, they are. Animal Friends directly gives funding to support their Horse Home Direct Scheme, an admission and adoption service that can not only help you find the right home for your horse, but also find the right horse for you if you're looking to adopt.

1:05Speaker A Together, Animal Friends and the Blue Cross aim to support both pets and people in need, whilst reinforcing their joint commitment to championing animal welfare. You can visit animalfriends.co.uk BlueCross for more information. And before we forget, I need to be responsible and let the listeners know that this was a paid advert on behalf of Animal Friends Pet Insurance, just in case that wasn't obvious. Thank you for listening. Welcome back to another episode of the Shut up and Ride podcast. We have a guest today, but before I introduce them, I want to give a big shout out to Charles Owen, who we love and sponsor us. And if you haven't bought a ticket to come on our tour yet, why not? They are online. Go to Supercross Country's website. Buy a ticket. Our guest, you are invited as a vip. Simon, we have a lovely guest who I know you know very well. I'm going to introduce her in a second, but how are you?

2:06Speaker B I'm very good, thank you. I'm very excited about our tour, I have to say. I think it should be very, very good fun. Very fun.

2:12Speaker A You are excited. That's because you always get to ride exciting ponies and do really exciting. I do. And I'm going

2:16Speaker B to get to do. I'm going to get to jump some jumps and on horses that I don't know and probably some quite big jumps. So I'm quite. I'm really keen on that idea.

2:24Speaker A I know I'm Waiting for confirmation from a really big name who said yes. If they're. If they don't have to go abroad,

2:31Speaker B somewhere

2:32Speaker A international

2:32Speaker B and important.

2:33Speaker A Everyone keep fingers crossed that we can get this famous show jumper along because it would be very cool. Right, I'm going to introduce our guest because she's sitting quietly and I know she wants to go to the pub and so she's nodding, right, so I'm going to do my introduction. I know you really well, so I'm going to try and be serious and grown up and you can tell me if it's shit or not. So Lucy Jackson, who is our guest today, is a top international eventer who represented New Zealand, competed at the highest level, won even a event rider master's leg back in the days of the event rider masters. But these days she's turning her considerable talents to something a little bit different. Chatting on stages with a microphone and helping former racehorses find their feet and their futures beyond the track. She's heavily involved in the Howden Way thoroughbred aftercare program, challenging misconceptions about X ray sources and giving these incredible athletes a second chance they deserve. So from five star eventing to life after racing, please welcome to the podcast for the first time, the wonderful Lucy Jackson. Da, da, da. Thank you

3:37Speaker C very much. What an intro. I hardly feel worthy. Thanks.

3:40Speaker A You are worthy. I feel like I've known you for so long, but I feel like I haven't seen you for so long. How are you?

3:48Speaker C I'm very well indeed, thank you. I haven't seen quite a lot, sadly, of my eventing mates since I took my red cross country hat off and left it off. But it's the thing I miss the most. What a gang.

4:01Speaker A Yeah, very. And you guys know each other. Simon's got a really gooey smiley face on today. You can tell when he really likes a guest because he gets like a gooey, like happy face on. I

4:10Speaker B know I do.

4:11Speaker A This is easy. I don't have to think for this one. I know all my questions in advance. There's a look of love in his eyes.

4:19Speaker B Lucy is a. Well, we've known each other for a long, long time and yeah, she's. I've got a lot of respect for her. She's a very, very good jockey and we have done some really big cross country courses alongside each other and she's also incredibly. Sorry. God, I'm getting all gushy now while she's here. I should be sending someone here. She's also incredibly talented on a microphone, a little bit like yourself. Jenny, she's extremely good at interviewing, being interested and genuinely interested in people. And as she. Because she is like, as a person, like, that's why she's going down the pub because everyone likes her. But like when she's interviewing, like, she's genuinely interested in what someone's got to say in their opinion. And, and really it's a real talent and it's. Yeah, really. We did. I did some demos last year with Meg Elphick and, and Lucy came and she, she compared it and it was just brilliant. Like, you're so good at like keeping in the zone and keeping it all flowing and. Yeah, it's a real talent. A real talent.

5:22Speaker C I think we've got some really fun people in our sport to interview and some thing that inextricably links them all to the sport is that they're slightly crackers and that is really enjoyable to see. What is the crackers bit or the most crackers bit or what makes you even more crackers than the next guy? And teasing that out of people is. It's an honor and it's a, you know, it's a joy. And guess what? Sometimes I get paid to do it. Woo.

5:49Speaker B Yeah, it's amazing, like, because you do the insight stage at Burley, don't you?

5:55Speaker C Yeah, that was really cool. So went on as a guest when Jonty was running it, doing Burley myself and really enjoyed that experience. And then Al Plunks and I stood in after Jonty's horrid four for a year or so and then Plunke said, you can do it on your own because she was too busy being nervous that Will was going cross country. And so I've got a huge amount to thank her for because I really enjoyed being her underling and very low key. Just step in when you feel like it and don't worry if you haven't practiced or can't remember what your influencer wanted to be asked and didn't want to be asked and she would know and then all of a sudden, thank you kindly to her being brave enough to say go for it. Because without someone pushing you off the edge of the little stick, it's quite hard to do. So

6:45Speaker B you would say that she was a proper mentor of yours. Yes.

6:48Speaker A For people who don't know, like Alice Plunkett or Alice is William Fox, Pitt's other half, she's a racing presenter. She is the silent force sometimes behind pushing William in different directions. But yeah, Google her if you don't know who she is because

7:02Speaker C she's an absolute guru. She's, you know, meanwhile, she's a mum of four and they run a hugely busy farm and a yard and then she's converted a barn into a business space. I mean, the list goes on. But she's got a really gorgeous way of knowing exactly where she is in an interview and. But being able to be flexible enough to go off piste and then bring you back to the point. And

7:26Speaker B I think that's a talent that both you two have, you both got. And you're right, it's so. In an interview, it's so easy to. As the interviewer, it's so easy to get lost within that, isn't it? Like you ask a question and they answer it and then they go off on a tangent that takes you away from where you were going to take the conversation.

7:44Speaker C And

7:45Speaker B then you have to completely, you have to be so sharp in your brain, change tack and be like, okay, they've just asked the question. I was going to ask, what am I going to ask next? And there have been a couple of times when I've gone, I don't know what to say. And you guys,

7:57Speaker A what was written down?

7:59Speaker B This was written down in my head and it's not there anymore. Well,

8:03Speaker C I mean, imagine,

8:04Speaker B you guys are brilliant at keeping it going.

8:06Speaker C Suddenly being asked to interview Craig Revel Hallward. I was like, oh my God, what am I going to talk to him about? He ended up being quite a familiar character. Of course, I don't know him. Perhaps you don't really watch Strictly either.

8:19Speaker A But

8:20Speaker C the artistic side of the dressage, bit of the eventing, you felt like you were with somebody that you'd met before and you could then talk sports psych or sports nutrition or nerves or performing. And darling, I mean, of course if you're going to eat a hamburger, you're going to look like one. And this sort of thing, you've suddenly felt very at ease. And that could easily have gone pear shaped from my perspective because I don't know a thing. If anyone's ever seen me on the dance floor, you'll know. I don't know.

8:49Speaker A That's hilarious. If you eat a hamburger, you'll look like one. I'm gonna remember that. Do these jeans make me look big? And Gregor's like, no, it's the ice cream you ate last night that make you look big. The jeans are actually helping. But you like, you say like

9:03Speaker C someone like. I mean, Alice is. I actually rang Alice in tears after someone was terribly mean to me once at Blenheim over Something completely different. And she is so also to the point, which is what you need, which was. She was sympathetic and like, jenny, no, you're good at what you do. But she also went, just tell them to fuck off. Who cares about their fucking opinion? She's someone you definitely want in your corner. Do you know what I mean? And I can

9:29Speaker A imagine her

9:30Speaker C having just literally

9:31Speaker A going, lucy, just get on with it, you're good.

9:34Speaker B And she is like, she's very to the point, isn't she? And there's no bullshit from Alice. And she's. I presented a ball in London at the Savoy last year. And in fact, it might even. I know, right? I

9:48Speaker C know. Oh,

9:51Speaker B we've all done

9:51Speaker C stuff. Okay, we've all done stuff.

9:53Speaker B But Alice, Alice was there and the crowd were not easy. Like, they were not easy. Like, they kept on talking over me and it was like. And she was so nice and she was like, right, you're doing a great job. Like, keep doing what you're doing. And which was really nice, like, coming from somebody like her.

10:10Speaker C I also have her to thank because between guests, one Burleigh, I had had some whisperings about my lovely superstition. Was he for sale? Was he not? And she was a brilliant, you know, thank you. I don't know whether you believe in fate or God or whoever, but the right person at the right time to say, you know, stick your neck out, choose a crazy figure that's going to make a difference and go for it. And that probably again was just the right little nudge at the right time, because there wasn't probably much point in complicating it more than that. And she has been there in terms of, you know, it isn't the highest paid sport in the world, let's be honest, and carrying on owning a horse is risky because things can happen and, you know, the home was amazing, blah, blah, blah. So she was again, just a great nudge at the right time. And so I've got a lot to thank her for.

11:10Speaker A Do you feel like as well? Because obviously you've been in this sport a long time now, Lucy. As have you, Simon. And you are becoming the Alice Plunkett to the next generation. Do you guys feel that a little bit. Like, if you. Do you feel like you could give the advice now and give someone a shove in the right direction or advise on a horse for sale. Do you know what I mean? Because you are you guys, like. I mean, at one point it's Lucinda Green and now. But you guys, sorry, we're all getting old but you guys are becoming those people for the, for the next generation.

11:39Speaker B Oh, I don't know. I don't know about that. Well, although, like, so there was somebody that went around PO last week and I messaged them to say, oh, well done, that was really good. And I got a message back saying, oh, I didn't ride gray. And I really thought I let the horse down and, and I was really quick. Cause I didn't really have anybody as such with that at that when I was doing my first kind of five stars there and I was very quick to be like, oi, hang on a second. You need to realize what you've actually just achieved. I know exactly how you're feeling because I've been there as well. You finished your first five star. You're like, oh, I could have done that better. Or I could have done that better. Or this wasn't quite right. Cause you never quite get what you want. I

12:19Speaker A remember having a similar conversation with you at this badminton, Simon, you've just done badminton and gone clear shut the fuck

12:26Speaker B up. But that's it. Like you just every so often need to have somebody to say, oh, hang on a minute. And so I suppose in that respect, yeah, maybe, but yeah, no, you never think of it like that, do you?

12:36Speaker C I think it's a really unique sport. In what other sport do you go up to someone who you're trying to get on the podium, get off the podium because you want to get on and say, I don't suppose you could tell me about the distance between those two fences and

12:49Speaker B yeah, isn't it amazing? I don't

12:50Speaker C know what the equivalent is in any other sport, but you know, Nadal, Federer, are they going to just say, by the way, if you just angle that one a little bit more that way, a bit more spin, then you're going to get it past me? I don't think so. So I'm new to teaching the teaching world. I didn't quite have the spare gas while I was competing to be a good coach and actually hated coaching, if I'm really honest. But I now realize that's energy related because there wasn't spare gas in the tank to be an eventer and a coach. So now I'm really enjoying the coaching and it's all levels. I don't have many, you know, five star riders in, you know, under my tutelage, but it's really enjoyable to see somebody keen and somebody who will give what you're saying a go. Just as we looked up to various other riders and I was super lucky to do Brit juniors and young riders. So Jill Watson obviously mega influential to so many across the generations of eventers. But then, you know, so Steph Thompson and Emma, now Fisher were at the yard at the time. So you looked up to them and then going in, being part of the Kiwi squad, what a gang. You know, you're at squad training with Toddy Nicholson Blythe when he was still over, I mean Jock and Tim and Janelle like all my heroes

14:06Speaker A in one layout. That is like insane.

14:09Speaker C And if you, if you're hungry enough and ask enough, you know, they don't mind saying what they did well and what they didn't or why they did that worked and why that didn't. So hopefully I'm not riding anymore. So I worry about remaining current enough and like cutting edge. But there's still stuff that's going to apply no matter how many years since I rode. And so I love the opportunity to hand that on. Someone will listen, you're going to get it both barrels.

14:39Speaker B I was just kind of having a bit of flashback to, to your, your riding career and like when you with Head Willy Doo and you were doing Burley and, and stuff and you were obviously on that squad training and doing that stuff for the team and you always came across as like, always very approachable and very personable, but hugely professional, very confident of yourself, sure about what you were wanting, sure about what you were doing. Like that's certainly the Persona that came across. Was that the case or were you faking until you made it or how did you feel that was going at that point? Because it came across amazing.

15:15Speaker A Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, you do, you have a very good like competition, professional game face,

15:22Speaker B but at the same time being incredibly approachable as well.

15:24Speaker C I think that it was a funny phase. I think I felt like I was on catch up because I had a decade out, not really riding over in New Zealand, being a physio. And so I was pretty tunnel visioned when I got the chance to have another go at being an eventer, you know, and I definitely was lucky, fortunate in not really suffering hugely with nerves. Yes, I got massive butterflies. Yes. I didn't say a lot. The morning, Saturday mornings, never anyone's favourite, but I got a huge amount of pleasure from gorgeous horses, gorgeous places, lovely owners, great gang and trying to be a little bit better, a little bit better, little bit better. And I think it was easy because I was coming from such a long way back, there wasn't a lot of pressure involved. In that, you know, was I likely to make a squad? Not really, but that's a fun place to be. And I think the two things that I'll never quite forgive myself for are a tumble at the World Games, lying ninth after dressage, three fences from home.

16:30Speaker B Ouch.

16:31Speaker C That

16:31Speaker B is an ouch.

16:32Speaker C I

16:32Speaker A don't mean

16:33Speaker C that I don't forgive myself, but I really, really wish that I hadn't just been first reserved for the Games in London. And bloody Janelle, who's one of my best mates, beat me to it and it's. She launched her own career. Look, she was always going to be a

16:49Speaker A mentor. I remember everyone going, who is this Janelle person? At that

16:53Speaker C time, it was between her and I and she bloody well broke her arm three weeks before she still went. So there's. She's

17:00Speaker B hardcore.

17:01Speaker C She is hardcore. Those are the two things that I assumed at the time. Of course, I'd get two more games to have a go at and another world to be in. A chance with a ribbon at. But I'm sort of skirting around your question because I don't really know how to answer it. Thanks for saying that. I look like I was on it all. You know what it's like. It's a massive juggle. Have you got the owners? Have you got the horses? Have you got the staff? Have you got any money? Probably no to most. You know, you can never get them all in the right place at the right time. But, God, I loved it. It was such good fun. And how lucky are we to have had the chance to have a go?

17:40Speaker B Because that's. Because that's another thing that I've noticed about you as well. And I could be completely wrong here on my thought processes, but I remember being at Poe one year and

17:52Speaker C I

17:53Speaker B fell off

17:53Speaker C in the show jumping.

17:54Speaker B You fell off in the show jumping was that one year. And then. And then the following year, didn't the horse get injured after cross country? So you didn't complete that year either?

18:01Speaker C Yeah, yeah.

18:02Speaker B And I remember. I remember seeing you absolutely distraught and. And feeling so bad for you because I was like, is it right? Is that the second year on the Troll? It's

18:13Speaker C Animator. Gorgeous Animator.

18:15Speaker B After all, after all the effort of getting down there, like, how. How have you dealt with those kinds of disappointments and getting back on

18:22Speaker C it? That occurred to me before we came on air. There was one poor guy I was going out with who came all the way up to Burgi with me and I got as far as like, Fence four and couldn't get him over fence four. He wasn't the world's greatest horse, but he was owned by the gorgeous Greenlees. So

18:39Speaker B he was

18:40Speaker C the start of something incredible. And I sobbed all the way back to the lorry and hardly said anything all the way back to Gloucestershire and he was like, wow. Because he was eventing too. He's like, wow. God, that really, you know, really matters, doesn't it? And I'm like, yes, how can you? I couldn't imagine that anyone could want it less than that. But everyone's in it for different reasons, aren't they? And I think Mum had a good mantra about trying to see the best in every horse and get it to reach its potential. Now, that might be a novice win. It might be clinging on for dear life around 100. Or it might be good old Willy Doo, I thought, was the third in line to the throne of being my bestest with animator and ambassador. How wrong was I? Willie do just kept saying, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah. And he had the odd tumble because he didn't always get the highest, but he. What a guy.

19:36Speaker A And was Willy do one of those sources? Obviously, I remember him, but was he. Because of his head and his heart more than his talent, was he one of those?

19:46Speaker C Yeah,

19:46Speaker A yeah.

19:46Speaker C He had really good front legs. He had a great trot and great knees, but he didn't get Super High. Tom McEwan rode him and Superstition for me when I was pregnant and he was like, about Willy Doo, you know, can we get, you know, a tiny bit more height over a fence? And I was like, no, no, no, just go with the

20:04Speaker B flow. Probably not.

20:05Speaker C No. Go with the flow. So, yeah, see the best in them and enjoy getting the best out of them and make that fun for their gang and then see where that takes you and you never know. But, yeah, I don't know. I definitely took the sad bits pretty hard. But then you soon find the next goal and then you're okay.

20:29Speaker B Yeah, because I was gonna, like. Because at Poe, especially when the horse was injured and you were absolutely distraught and then. But then, like, the next year. The next year she was back again.

20:40Speaker C Yeah, I've done two pose not being able to jog. One he got. It was really weird. I think he got some brush in a boot and it sort of spiked a little hole that then blew up with air. It was horrid. And another one, just a classic overreach, so they weren't catastrophic. But I remember when I was married in New Zealand and had a good result at Taupo. Which was in May. So the end of the season someone said to him, you must be thrilled. Wow, what an excitement. He's like, I'm just so relieved because it's going to be a happy winter and it is a long way back from Po and it is a long way until March much before you get another go at proving yourself. And I think that's the thing is that you do base a little bit, like it or not your self worth on a good result. And

21:24Speaker A yeah.

21:25Speaker C And

21:25Speaker B it's not just about proving yourself to everybody else to yourself.

21:29Speaker C So jolly tenuous link that. And so if. If your view of you is dependent on a ribbon can be a long time coming before you give yourself a bit of a thought.

21:38Speaker B I'd be in serious trouble. That was me.

21:41Speaker A I never thought about that with Poe. That it's like that cut off and you've got if goes to absolute shit. Excuse my

21:48Speaker C language.

21:49Speaker B It's a long way home. Oh, it's

21:51Speaker C a long way home. And

21:52Speaker A you've got a long way before really your next event. Probably. I hadn't even in these all these years put that.

21:57Speaker C Yeah

21:58Speaker A like

21:58Speaker C if you're gonna it up, do it earlier in the year.

22:02Speaker A And

22:02Speaker B the other thing I've noticed with with PO is like well, whenever I've done it like either I've had. I had some really good runs there and I had a couple of runs where like I slipped and had to run out and then. And then I pulled up because I was like 10. I was already like I was quite early on in the course. I was already a minute down before I even had the slip. And then I had to do a circle and said then I was like five minutes down. So I ended up pulling up and driving home and the person that I'd gone with had had really great time. And then another time I went and had a really good time and the person I went with had had a freaking awful time. So like it's just. Yeah, it's. There's a real like roller coaster of emotions for Poe Whiteholes thing.

22:37Speaker C But look at the riders you really admire. So Timmy Price, world number one even he has had a number of, you know, got to the Olympics and fell on the flat.

22:46Speaker A Oh

22:47Speaker C my

22:47Speaker A God, a turn, wasn't it?

22:49Speaker C Yeah. The number of times he's been in the lead after cross country. That's what it takes to be that good. Lots of things take it to be that good. I'm not saying it's just that, but his ability to go oh fuck it and then have another Go have another go, have another go, have another go. And the only thing you can guarantee is you're not going to get better if you don't.

23:09Speaker B Yeah.

23:09Speaker C So

23:10Speaker A I've got a question for both of you. So you know when you go on holiday, bear with. And when at the end of the holiday you feel this horrible, like I was really looking forward to that and looking forward as good as the gone. But you've got to start planning your next holiday to get rid of that. Is that like after a five star? Is it like so much in the build up the five star happens? Is it

23:34Speaker C like, oh thank God that's over because it's so much or is it like I now need to plan something else big to fill that void of nerves, competition, adrenaline, dopamine hit that you lot seek out on a daily basis.

23:46Speaker B I think, I think it's been very rare that I've in fact probably never that I finished three day event and being like, I can hell, God, I did well then. That was really good. Like I nailed it. Got everything right. The Sunday for me, the Sunday of a three day event is always, no matter how well you've done, a little bit of a letdown or it's just, yeah, it's like, it's like a bit of deflation because you're like, I didn't quite manage that and I'm like, and what am I going to do next week? Because like everything has been, I've been aiming towards this for months and months and months and months and months now it's done. I didn't do it as well as I wanted to do. I can't improve because the horse has have a holiday and it, so it ends up just being a bit

24:28Speaker C very flat. There's no, no matter how well it goes, the Monday blues are pretty awful actually. And I don't think, I think that's nature's way of just giving your body a teensy bit or your mind a bit of a rest because you have put your all into it in the build up through the event. I've had help from an amazing. She started as a sports psych, Claire Norman and then turned into an everything psych. Like she's had to help me through various sort of relationships and staff issues and ownering management and, and, and, and, and, and you know, I think I used to definitely not have a clue which month we were in, but I definitely know that we were at Aston on Wednesday and heartbreak on Thursday, Friday and then we probably had time to whiz back to Aston between, you know, that calendar and you see it a lot in the jockeys, you know, that rhythm, that routine, that structure is quite hard to do without for a time. And then you spend quite a lot of time, you know, who are you? Well, I was an eventer. Well, no, no, who, who are you? And it's quite.

25:40Speaker B Have you found that then, like, since you've stopped eventing? I

25:43Speaker C think so. I think so.

25:44Speaker B Have you found it that your. Your identity has been lost to a point and you've had to refind it?

25:49Speaker C Definitely, definitely. I was lucky in a way that the stop point was beyond outside my control. It was a health issue and then it was up to me. Then it would have been a real thing to have to say to myself, okay, this sport is worth it. I really want to start again. So that was, in a way, lucky because I don't know how much longer I'd have kept on tiptoeing along, being quite good. As someone who used to ride a really good horse one day I might have done that for a decade or more. But at the same time, I think I was lucky in that, you know, Harry's getting bumped up in the army, so that's quite a lot of pressure. He needs a bit of support. Evie's growing up a bit. She's little blob, you could take her anywhere when they were. She was born, she did four years in a lorry practically. Then all of a sudden they've got their own structure, their own friends, their own. So it was time for me to be a little bit more generous with my time because it is selfish. Top level sport is super selfish,

26:47Speaker A 100%

26:47Speaker C pretend it's not, you know, I'm really tired and, you know, he'd be like, you're getting up at two and you're going to drive four hours to ride five horses in three phases, come back and you're going to be delighted with a hoof pick and a dandy brush to show for it. And that is quite hard to justify. Yes, I loved it. No, I don't think at the time, the sport had another way. We were hoping that the Masters that you mentioned earlier was going to bring a bit of glitz into it and there are ways that it can develop in the future. But, yeah, I was just lucky to be put in a position to make a really clear choice and it was my time to step out. But then I did wonder, what are you now? Who are you now? Because I was fully qualified as a physio, human physio, not horse. Physio, but I sort of dangled that in front of myself like a little carrot to say if you're not good enough. I gave myself four years when I got back from New Zealand to make a business of the eventing. And if I did, brilliant. If I didn't, I had to go back to being a physio. That was good motivation because I didn't love being a physio.

27:48Speaker A Oh, dealing with people. No, thanks.

27:51Speaker C I don't honestly care if your knee hurts. Let's be honest.

28:00Speaker A Did you think at the time, obviously you talk about having to leave eventing. You talk about it in a very positive way. Was it positive at the time? Being kind of. It was out of your hands and you had to kind of give it up. How did you deal with that at the time? So that must have been pretty hard.

28:19Speaker C It was, but it didn't occur to me that that was what was occurring. I had one step, so basically I got the big C. It was colon cancer and I needed to have an op and it was having a baby. Everyone said, oh, well, you need to have a bit of time off. And I was like, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, whatever. You know, I had 10 days off to have a baby, so that was fine. But this was

28:42Speaker A 10 days.

28:43Speaker C Yeah, this was gonna be different because it was a bigger op. So therefore I definitely couldn't zoom back into the saddle. And the OP was like, June ish. So. And I was feeling pretty rubbish. I was pretty, pretty rubbish before. So that

29:03Speaker B as in poorly or mentally rubbish or both?

29:05Speaker C No, I ran out of puff. That was my first symptom. So Harry sweetly said, have you been for a run? I was like, likely story. I've just literally walked back from the paddock over there. And he said, you've got to do something about that. Anyway, I went to the GP and said if I was a horse, I'd just run a blood because I'm not, you know, optimal performance. And I was like, super anemic. And so they were brilliant. They just said, come, you sit in this same day emergency unit for a day. He said, you'll be here at least 10 hours, relax. And they whiz you in for this test, that test, the other test, and meanwhile, give you a couple of pints of blood and some iron. And that made me feel amazing, which actually made me cry because I was just so relieved to get a bit of. He said, listen, we've put the. It was a great expression. We put the fire out, as in, your blood will feel more normal. But what We've got to find out is, you know, what caused it,

29:59Speaker B why it's doing that.

30:00Speaker C Yeah. So off they did to do that and then I knew I needed a knock, blah, blah, blah. And actually then, you know, it had been a couple of years since I'd sold Stinky and I had two sweet horses at four star level, neither of whom were probably gonna go higher. And at the same time the margins are getting slimmer and at the same time, I don't know about you, but I was finding staff retention quite challenging. You know, their genuine, probably sensible requests for money were more than I was earning. So

30:31Speaker B it's so hard,

30:32Speaker C really tricky. So it all just was the perfect storm to say, do you know what, I've had a brilliant time, I'm so lucky. I flipping loved it. Why don't you go and do something else for somebody else? And that would tick being a better mummy, a better wife. Give coaching a go. That was where I came from. Thankfully. Again, another great light in my life was Justine Parker who said, you've got to get an exam, you've got to get that qualification. Here is a five day course instead of a five month course, UKCC level three. And that was just the push I needed and it was hilarious. We had, imagine sitting in a classroom with like Tim Rogers and Tina Cook and Mike and Emma Winter. We were the worst people. This poor woman had come from UK sport, she was a sort of netballer and she said, okay, everyone, what's your motivation for being here? And we were like, well, to make money. And she said, no, no, no, come on, gotta think deeper than that. We're like, absolutely no other reason. We just need to make some money. We don't care about anything else. Anyway, she just dropped back in her chair. So that set me off on the teaching journey, which ironically then came at a time we did that in about February. So I did a summer of teaching and then come that autumn, Justin said, quick, we need to write the syllabus for the Arab Ed aftercare program. What do you think? And I was like, that's me, that's my favorite subjects all rolled into one.

32:04Speaker A Just, I feel like you've just taken us on a whirlwind of like, your life. And

32:08Speaker C like, it felt like a.

32:10Speaker B Well, one thing that, well, you haven't missed, but nearly slightly, like when you finished, I think, I imagine one massive silver lining to that was family is so important to you, isn't it? Like your family is so close. Close. And

32:28Speaker C yes,

32:29Speaker B like you and your sister are like, I mean, I know you don't live close, but you are so close and families and, and you know, mum and dad. I'm so, I mean dad, so sad about your dad not be here anymore but like incredibly supportive of you guys and like, and that was always when you were competing, that was always so evident because they were just there for you and they're like totally in behind you like your main cheerleaders. And I imagine stopping meant like actually you could spend more time with them or give them more attention and like that was probably a positive.

33:02Speaker C It was, it was, it was awful timing, darling. Dad passed Christmas Eve 22 and

33:09Speaker A my mom be your dad always at the, always in the background at events.

33:13Speaker C Six foot eight, red trousers.

33:15Speaker A Yeah.

33:16Speaker C And then my diagnosis was April 23rd and I was just like to the doctor, can I possibly not tell, you know, mum, is this likely? Could it maybe wait till it comes out and then you'll know is it a baddie or a goodie? And he was like, no. So that was a shame. But I think again, believe in fate or somebody had a plan. You know, we had, I did 10 years in New Zealand, Soph did seven and we had, you know, brill crossings of paths over there. And then we both came back at a similar time, thank God, because imagine trying to have dad ill from the different hemisphere. That would have been awful. And then she was really into the young horses and producing them. She was the one that found superstition. She was sent him as a three year old to brave.

34:01Speaker B I remember, I remember her bouncing around at, at the polo club, like doing show dumping stuff like, yeah, she's amazing. She's such a talented girl. She was

34:13Speaker C so brave, which I certainly wasn't. And she sweetly said, you've got to have a look at this. I've been sent it because the poor girl has broken her arm that normally does the breakers and he's quite sharp. Anyway, she brilliantly kept him, broke him in, took him to Burley and 100 and then I was brave enough to get on him as sort of 5 year old. November time. So yeah, we're lucky. We're very lucky and that is important. And I think they were integral to our, you know, how you think you've got to have a USP as an eventer. There are 200 really good eventers in, you know, based in the country at any one time and not tons to choose between them as far as talent. But what is appealing about you to an owner? And I think I would encourage young riders to think about that. So I think our USB was flipping delicious picnics and really glass of wine, Soph said.

35:08Speaker B And great Craig and like, you know, and so, like, so welcoming. Like your mum is another very talented lady. Making you feel important, making you feel special, making it feel like she's actually interested in what you're talking about. Maybe she might not be at all, but she certainly comes across that she's interested

35:25Speaker C and she's so knowledgeable.

35:26Speaker B I think she genuinely actually is interested, to be fair. But. But like, you know, and. Yeah, so that's definitely USP for you guys, like. Or was probably still is.

35:37Speaker C So. Said that one of her favorite things was to go to Oseby and finish by 10 o'. Clock. Fizz for everybody. Makes me want to be an owner,

35:47Speaker A I think as well, from a media perspective, obviously. I've interviewed you many times over the years, but you've always understood that side of things. Rain or shine, you've always been pretty good at going, yeah, I'll talk, or, yeah, I'll give you an interview, and you come because I'm sorry, but some eventers and showjump and dresser, it can be a little bit. Just talk through the motions. Whereas you always gave a. A bit of personality, always how much your horses were absolutely awesome and you just. You always did give a little bit more, which is why it was no surprise that when you actually run the other side of a microphone, you're so good at it.

36:24Speaker C I cocked up really early on that and I got a rosette in a sort of novice in Hawke's Bay or something, and I forgot to mention the woman that had bred the horse and the daughter had produced it. And she was gutted. She was absolutely gutted. And that was completely like not being dramatic. That was completely my fault to have forgotten her. And so it always is running through your head and you don't want it to sound like an Oscar speech, but it really matters that you remember that it wasn't. You're the lucky one in the plate with the reins and having all the fun. And don't, whatever you do, forget Mrs. Meggins, that, you know, is going to be hanging on your every word. So it's your golden opportunity to say all your thank yous.

37:17Speaker A Yeah, 100%. And give some personality to the sport as well, which I think you always did. And that's

37:22Speaker C harder for some people. I'm not shy. Nor are you, too. I

37:27Speaker A don't know what you mean.

37:29Speaker C I think I was a long time ago. But I think, you know, again, we're the lucky ones. So shout about it.

37:39Speaker B Sorry, Go on.

37:40Speaker A Day. No, no, you go, Simon.

37:41Speaker B Well, no, I was gonna say so, like, bearing that in mind, saying the right things and not. Not upsetting anyone. Your commentary is excellent. Like, really, there's clarity, there's knowledge, there's a good rhythm. And this sounds a bit silly, but there is a good rhythm to your commentary and how you do. How you do stuff. It's obviously something you enjoy. That's how it comes across. Do you really enjoy it?

38:12Speaker C I absolutely love it. And I think I wasn't brilliant. I'm not brilliant at going to a show without a job. And you'd probably, I think, be similar. I love it if someone wants me to walk the course or someone wants me to help wash off or. But

38:28Speaker B just stand and watch is a.

38:30Speaker C Oh, God, what am I going to do? You know, why are you here? What are you doing? And then again, really lucky. You know, I've had a couple of stints lately where I've been able to commentate with John Kyle, and it feels like I'm not very good at tennis. But apparently, if you play tennis with a really good tennis player, your tennis gets better. And I feel like under those sort of, you know, watchful eyes, you can. You can get better at. Is something I am. It is a sport I'm passionate about. Like, it's really exciting and you want to be able to deliver that message. We've got to all lean in to supporting the sport to stay intact, really, and whatever we can do. And I think, don't be too squeaky as a girl. You can't get too squeaky and excited. You can't be too derogatory, but you don't want to miss totals.

39:23Speaker B Yeah.

39:24Speaker C Whoopsie. No,

39:26Speaker B but you've also got to be like, you were a commentator at an event and somebody was not having the best of rounds and it was very evident that they were very particular. Great round. And really, they probably should have pulled up and. But you dealt with it really well. And a lot of commentators wouldn't have dealt with it as well, but it was just one of those situations where, like, you could have been like, oh, my God, what the hell are they doing? Kind of thing. That's just terrible. But. But you. But you dealt with it, like, as in, I can't remember the language that you used, but it was like, clearly she's not thinking, this is great, but she's being very diplomatic about it, like. And that was quite a difficult one.

40:06Speaker C Yes. And I have again, stick to shoulder in and half Past lj, because you do know about that. But I have launched into somebody's lovely wife. They make such a great team. And I got a little text on the way home to say that she was split up a year ago. So I can be diplomatic about skills. I think maybe let's leave their private lives off air, shall we?

40:31Speaker B Whoops. Oh,

40:32Speaker A I did that. The other day. There was a show jumping mother and son duo that were competing in a four star that I was commentating on. I bought the course and I'd seen the mother and I was like, there's absolutely no way someone's told me this is wrong. Cause she'd had so much work done, she looked like his sister. So on the commentary I said, oh, and his sister is competing. Later on I got several messages. No, no, that is his mother. She looks incredible. I was like, there's absolutely no way you've got a 30 year old son. But

41:00Speaker B yeah, but you, Jenny, you're on the right side of things there.

41:03Speaker C Yeah,

41:04Speaker A exactly. Being the

41:05Speaker B other way around.

41:05Speaker A Yeah,

41:06Speaker C yeah,

41:06Speaker B that's not so great.

41:08Speaker A So I remember because we don't live a million miles away from each other when I lived in England, you being, you, my son and your daughter are very similar in age. We were pregnant at the same time. Am I right? Being pregnant was not your favorite time, was it, Lucy Jackson? No,

41:26Speaker C it was not. I was horrid. I was absolutely horrid. I just quote, unquote, if anyone ever tells you this is okay, they're wrong. Don't listen. This is awful. Get it

41:38Speaker B out,

41:39Speaker C get it out. And then actually probably wasn't like tons keener on the whole concept until she was about 5, but lucky me, because not everyone gets the opportunity. And she's brill and hysterical. She's not wild keen on riding. And so we go to a sweet little local riding school once a week and I went to help her with her stirrups and she said, how on earth do you know how to do that? So I was like, thank you, darling.

42:09Speaker A Do you know, I'm kind of a big deal.

42:11Speaker C I was very good at stirrups. And then she said, in March, I don't think I'll ride this term, mum. I was like, okay, you know, desperate not to be a pushy mother because there are ghastly creatures in the equestrian world in particular. I said, any reason? And she said, I think in March I think it's going to be quite warm for riding this term, so I don't think I will. And I was like, said, no one in this country ever, actually. It was a hot summer, wasn't it? But no, I think, yeah, her skills are going to lie elsewhere.

42:47Speaker A That's amazing.

42:48Speaker B Personally, I think that's probably a good thing.

42:50Speaker C Yes.

42:51Speaker A Right, let's talk about. I love a thoroughbred. I've retrained a few ex pointer pointers and for different owners. And when I heard that you were involved in the Howden Way thoroughbred aftercare program, I thought, who better to be kind of one of the spokesperson for this. But I didn't really know much about it, I have to say, because I now live in Australia, in another country. But I was very excited to hear about it and it is such a passion. I love retraining. I think thoroughbreds are amazing. Can you tell me a little bit about it because it just sounds

43:28Speaker C pleasure.

43:29Speaker A Oh, look at her. She's like the smile.

43:33Speaker C How long have you got? So, long story short, we launched the Thoroughbred aftercare program under the Howden Way in December 24th.

43:42Speaker A Yeah,

43:43Speaker C David Howden is, got this brilliant mantra that whatever he gets involved in, it's largely to do with can you offer more coaching, better coaching, better access to more coaching. You know, he did the Lions Tour, he does the under 16s, 18s, 21s and now 25s. Young Rider coaching within eventing and 5 year old, 6 year old, 7 year olds, can you get them better access to better coaching? So he is a passionate racehorse breeder, owner and race course sponsor. He sponsors a meeting at Ascot in December, hence that's where we launched. And I think we're all under pressure in whatever equestrian discipline we are involved in to help it and its social license, not just look better, but be better like we've got to. These gorgeous thoroughbreds do their absolute utmost for, you know, the breeder, the trainer, the jockey, the lads at the yards during their racing career. Then what? And I think we've all got a huge responsibility to make sure that we, you know, look after their future just as you would look after an eventer's future when it's retired. What's the best next, next step for him? So the idea is that we've got 25 accredited coaches nationwide within British, I'm not going to say British Isles within Great Britain. And you should be able to access a clinic or two in your area each month. You as the rider, enter online and pay towards your course hire fee. So it's normally about between 15 and 25, pound 35 and then the coach gets paid by Mr. Howden. So you can, you can go to a Coach on, Go to a coaching session. I do. Lyneum and CCR are my local ones, but I go to Pontespool down south and Summerford up north. You could come. As long as you're on a thoroughbred, it doesn't even have to have raced. You can sign up for the online content for free. You become a member for free. Www.thehoundenway.com tap we

45:56Speaker A will share that in the episode description. The bit no one believes reads below the podcast. Go read it now.

46:01Speaker C And we have had, we've been able to offer over 3,000 subsidized sessions so far.

46:07Speaker B Wow.

46:08Speaker C Quite cool. We've got four main partners, Dodson and Horrell, Harry Hall, Horsequest and Unibed, who have come in to join in this drive, basically to try and say to people, don't worry, they're not all wild, they're not all crazy, they haven't all got flat feet, they haven't all got kissing spines, they haven't all got ulcers and they're gorgeous, athletic workaholics that might just, with a new routine, a bit of turnout, some hacking and some gentle encouragement, be just what you want for showing. Dressage, trekking, happy hacking, eventing, show jumping, you name it, they could be good. Polo, doesn't matter. Whatever you think is your gig, let's go. And you know what we try not to do? We try not to help connect. We don't say, right, by the way, you, sime should definitely go and look at so and so's thoroughbred that's coming out of training. You should buy that. But horsequest has a page of thoroughbreds and then anyone who gets a thoroughbred can come and join us and hear a bit more about the routine that they're used to, some of the ailments that they might come with, you know, very often they're not expensive to buy. So you can then know that within your budget, you can still afford to spend a bit on helping them get used to a new diet or helping them get used to a new routine or, you know, getting them a bit of turnout, whatever it might be. You might have to go on a bit of a mission with your farrier to get their feet out of their plates and into what you want. But there's this sort of almost wasted resource. I understand, I think 7,000 horses a year retire from racing. Well, let's go get them. Let's make the most of these gorgeous creatures. And then in my last season of hunting, of the 10 I was running, six had raced. So it was My favorite subject

48:01Speaker A that is. And I mean, obviously for some people, that is a monumental thought, isn't it? Not just like learning yourself, but then teaching. Teaching a horse as well. But to have this resource is absolutely incredible. I found that with the ones that I was retraining, it was silly things like they didn't know how to just stand and be tied up at a competition, because they do.

48:24Speaker C It is the most difficult movement of the whole tent.

48:29Speaker A We don't know how to stop, but they go really fast. Simon, you need to get one.

48:34Speaker B Oh, well, I mean, I've rid. I've ridden some thoroughbreds, like Freddie was thoroughbred and I actually went inside the time at Bramham with him. But there's nothing quite like being on a thoroughbred. Especially at three Devon. You're at the end of like a really long cross country track. You've done 10 minutes, whatever it might, whatever it is, and you're at the bottom, like, bravo. You're at the bottom of the hill. You just gone through the water. She's about to go up that really long hill to the water to finish and normally you go, go on then. And they go in a minute. And with the thoroughbred, you go, go on then. And they go, all right then. But then you

49:07Speaker C are.

49:07Speaker B It's like a Ferrari. It's such an amazing feeling.

49:11Speaker C It is

49:11Speaker B an

49:11Speaker C amazing feeling. And they're really bright and they're quite. I think they're quite logical. Yes, they make mistakes, but who doesn't like human or equine. And so as long as you can follow the logic. I like the vision that we as coaches are interpreters. What's he trying to say? The fact that he had a spook or a stop or a squiggle or a wiggle and how can you explain to him that, no, thank you, we don't want the stop or the squiggle or the wiggle. This is where we'd like you to go. So try this, try this, try this. And very often, because they are logical, you can get through and they're like, oh, you should have said, don't worry, leave it to me. Come on and join that. So I think it's almost. There's some misconceptions. Some of them are wild, but so are some foreign bred horses. You know, some of them are more challenging and need a more expert routine or rider or whatever. But again, that applies to loads of them.

50:10Speaker B But when I worked in racing for a while and

50:13Speaker C you're perfectly built for it.

50:15Speaker A Yeah, you.

50:16Speaker B I

50:16Speaker A was

50:17Speaker B gonna say

50:17Speaker A you're quite tall, Lucy

50:20Speaker B I just wasn't, I just wasn't brave enough to go and win races. But the thing that it's, it's very well where I was, it was very regimented, it was very organized. Horses knew exactly where they stood. There was a real plan of action. It was, you know, military position with everything and, and the horses thrived on that. I always found like, and they were, and, and they weren't Larry and crazy because they, they were in a system and they were. Well when, when we went out on exercise they were in a herd. So like it was all, it was all, it was all fine. So I think thoroughbreds are. As long as they know where they're at, they know where they stand. They've got a regime. They've got as in a nice regime, they've got a system.

51:04Speaker A Routine, I think. A routine.

51:07Speaker B Yeah. Then they're, then they, they're happy with that. And actually like you said earlier that they are, they're, they're action. The action packed. Yeah. So they need to be doing stuff, they need to be busy otherwise they are going to be lentil.

51:20Speaker C I think in a way they're institutionalized. And I don't mean that to sound derogatory because it's not, it's just exactly as you say. They have breakfast at 5:30 in the morning all together. They go on the walker, all together. They go out on a ride all together. Then they get hand grazed, all together. Da da da da da. So it's working out, in what order can you change them to being in your routine? Which it can happen. It just can't all happen overnight. You know, and we talk about on the online content is what tack are they used to. So therefore what do you not need to change straight away? I'd really rather not ride in a racing saddle. So I am going to change that on day one. But could I ride in a loose ring with a Cavaser noseband? Of course I could. Do I care that he's not on the bit on day one? No, I don't. And I think one thing that I worry that people think they need is yes, they are likely to be light. So was Mo Farah. So is Eilish McColgan. Don't panic about that. Yes, we're going to look to develop them in a different musculature. But I think sometimes people think let's have you back, let's get you on holiday, let's give you a lie on the beach and feed you loads and loads and loads and then suddenly worry in Six months time you can't get back on. So it's almost like, let's change little bit by little bit and we're talking about what order. And I used to like to think that if you could have them for a month, six weeks, then a little break, then another month, six weeks and then another little break in a year's time, you might have the horse looking and going importantly how you want it, but don't panic to beef them up as your number one priority.

52:53Speaker B Yeah,

52:53Speaker A Laura, sorry. Like sharing her jumping and teaching thoroughbreds to jump. And I think that's quite brave putting it online because some of it has been like carting her through poles and crashing over poles, but then eventually they kind of hop over the pole and then eventually they're jumping it. And I thought that was quite brave of her online to show some of these kind of

53:15Speaker C developmental

53:16Speaker A stages.

53:17Speaker C I was with her on a filming day and she snapped her collarbone, which out of trot. So that was nice.

53:23Speaker A Yes.

53:24Speaker C She got up and she was like, how do you know if you've broken a bone? And I was like, oh, gosh, I've got so much experience to Delhi. But the way you're holding it, I'd say let's nip off to the hospital. But she doesn't event any, which is something we've got to change. But she's phenomenal and you can't quite work out why. In fact, all the yards, it's getting more trendy within the racing yards that, you know, their proprioception, their balance, their reaction time, their thought processes within a race. You know, you don't just run marathons to get good at winning a marathon, do you? You cross train. And I think people are getting more of a handle on that. Similarly, you know, we're lucky to work with Dodson and Horrell, but they're getting. The race lot are getting more into fiber. You know, they used to think that they didn't need want to be heavy, you didn't want a bellyful. Well, of course you don't want to race on a bellyful, but you have got to still treat the gut like it's meant to be in the wild and do little enough and, you know, the chaffs and the hays and the hay lidges and the grass and the turnout and. And that sort of thing. So there's tons of research ironically saying that let's get as close to nature as we can and that makes them happier and healthier.

54:33Speaker A How satisfying as well for you as a coach to watch these. The journey of some of these horses. Like that is what I love. Like seeing these, these, the. These horses who people would turn a blind eye at, come back and just like, be amazing. And I love stuff like that.

54:50Speaker C It is. I think I'm intrigued that Evie, go away. Are

54:56Speaker A they. Oh, hi, Evie.

54:57Speaker C Yes. Yes, they are.

54:58Speaker A What does Evie want?

54:59Speaker C She wants to go

55:00Speaker A to screen time.

55:01Speaker B She wants to keep

55:02Speaker A pub.

55:05Speaker C In fact, funny enough, we've got Eva Berry here, whose parents run Jackdaw's Castle. So John Jo o' Neil's brilliant racing setup, very locally. Hello. She says don't come on the screen. Oh, God, let's even Wallace go on. What was your really intelligent question?

55:23Speaker A Watching these horses develop must be sort

55:26Speaker C of amazes me.

55:27Speaker A Yeah.

55:28Speaker C And we're trying to really encourage people that you don't need to be ready to come to a tap clinic. We had a gorgeous girl who had her horse off the track a week and its mission was to get in the lorry, come somewhere boring, which was me. And she got it off the lorry, put some tack on, led it around a bit, got on, walked around for 10 minutes, got off and that was her day done. So I just think that's a really important message, is that you don't need to be doing flying changes or meter 20 to come and have a session, come on foot and watch for nothing. Just come and see what we're up to. If it's in your area, you know, I'd love people to contact me and say, you are making all this up, clearly. So can I come and ask you about it in person and then they can come to the next clinic? I'm astounded how brave people are coping with nerves because some of these people are so nervous. I don't know whether it's about the clinic or the day or being watched or whatever. And they. I would quickly touch with hope it continues is that they've all gone home smiling and it is fun. And

56:32Speaker A Laura Collett. He's got a bone you broke.

56:34Speaker C Yeah, yeah. She's. She's already hooked. She's okay. But you can come and meet some other people that are going through similar things or might

56:43Speaker A be

56:43Speaker C a month or two ahead of you or a month or two behind you. Make a bit of a network. It's such. We're so lucky to have David Howden backing this kind of concept.

56:53Speaker B Isn't he? Isn't he. He's quite the guy, isn't he? Like, what he's doing is so supportive of horses and the sport and he's Like, I don't really understand why he's doing it, what he's getting out of it, but he's obviously getting something out of it. And it's. We're so grateful.

57:13Speaker C I don't know, because I haven't asked him, but I. I think it sits with his conscience. Like, this is something he gets a huge amount of pleasure from is racing and race horses. So we want to be able to continue that. So we've got to do, right, we've got to look after the sport by looking after the horses. And we adore the horses. We're so grateful to them. They've given us our careers, so we'd do anything in our power to make their lives happier and easier and tell more people that these are great, fun, accessible assets that you should make the most of and not, you know, we see in wanted ads. No thoroughbreds, please. And it's like, why? You're missing a trip

57:53Speaker A 100%. Right. Lucy Jackson, because you want to go to the pub, we've got two more things to do for you.

57:59Speaker C Okay.

58:00Speaker A One is going to be what's annoyed you this week? And then. And before that, though, because we have a tradition on this podcast to ask people what's annoyed you this week? Because in a world of Zen, we're throwing that out. We're like, fuck it, let's get. Let's vent. But before that, I want to do a couple of some quick fire questions. Great.

58:16Speaker C Are

58:16Speaker A you ready?

58:16Speaker B Oh, I forgot about these.

58:19Speaker A This is a new

58:19Speaker B thing. This is a new thing.

58:22Speaker A Right, quick fire questions. Who's more dramatic, thoroughbreds or event riders?

58:26Speaker C Event riders. Absolutely

58:30Speaker A no

58:30Speaker C question. Deadpan expression. Totally not a quest one.

58:35Speaker A What's your most embarrassing guilty pleasure?

58:38Speaker C That I could eat sort of three packets of Haribo at a sitting.

58:43Speaker A What's one thing your friends would say you're absolutely terrible at?

58:45Speaker C I mean, I'm brilliant at everything. I don't know what you mean.

58:51Speaker B They'd say, nothing.

58:53Speaker A I like that. That's a very good answer. Champagne or pint?

58:56Speaker C Champagne.

58:56Speaker A When you were riding, who? If you could have anyone ride your horses, who was it?

59:01Speaker C Well, herein Liza's story. I asked Tim Price and he said, no, mate, I'm really busy. And I was like, I've got Super Session and Willie Doo to do two intermediates. I'm going to keep them on the road and I just need them. And they needed an April run and a May run, and I was obviously definitely going to be back by June. Evie was born on the 20th of May, and he said no. Anyway, trance wise, Janelle was also pregnant, but three months behind me and the date. So he knew but couldn't tell me that. That's why. So I stomped off and asked Tommy McEwan.

59:36Speaker B I mean, that's quite. Both of those. They're pretty good. Both of them

59:40Speaker C aren't

59:41Speaker A interesting. You went for a man, not a woman.

59:44Speaker C Well, look at me.

59:46Speaker A Oh, you are tall. Yeah, good point.

59:47Speaker C I'm six one. And yes, there's lots of girls that I admire, there's lots of other boys that I admire, but I knew neither of those two would care that I wanted to be the irritating owner that wanted that I wanted to be really annoying and really involved and have every say over, you know, I wanted to deem how many time faults I thought was appropriate. I didn't. I wanted them to do well, but not too well. I wanted them to, yeah, happily, but not win. And those two could have coped with that.

1:00:16Speaker A I love that. I love that honesty. Right, final one now. We've had many different answers to this. This is a thinker. What's the difference between a good horseman and a rider? And a good rider,

1:00:30Speaker C there's lots. There's a big difference. And I think in particular I observe good competitors and good horsemen and sometimes there's this unicorn of a human being that's both. I think a horseman, they don't have to muck out 10 a day, but they would know how to wag in a shape Link's fork. They would know how to pick their feet out, lead them. You can feel them, feel the horse's reactions. They're toddy. There you go. What a guy. Like. In fact, he did an event for me on Willie Doo when I'd broken my ankle. You know, he could feel it, make a mistake, correct it and thank it for having done the right thing within about two strides. And such was his sort of empathy and his timing and his feel. That's horsemanship. And you know, you see, I rang him to say, can I come and do an interview? And he's like, yeah, mate, just come and I'm in the lunge pin and the lunge pin. He was in the lunge pin, frecking on his own, backing it, you know, for racing. And he just gets what they're trying to say. He's the ultimate interpreter of what, you know, its responses are whether it needs a little kick, a little pull, a little pat or get off and leave it. D I think that's horsemanship. I think competitors are really good at getting A shape, getting clear round, getting the time, getting the scores on the board. Do they always. The horses always look like they're loving every second? Perhaps not quite as much, in my humble opinion. And I think I remember thinking, actually observing a competitor at work thinking, if that's what it takes, I'm probably not sure I've got it. I think I lacked competitiveness and I hope I was a horseman. I adored them and chatted all the way around the cross country about how braille they were and I think I would. You know, that came from hours doing stable Y stuff, not just riding.

1:02:48Speaker A Yeah. It might be one of my favourite answers we've had to that question.

1:02:52Speaker C I feel very passionately about it and I think that's why thoroughbreds suit, because they are sensitive and if you can just give them the opportunity, they will try and give you the right answer. Yeah. Ben and Simon put it very eloquently. They said, a good rider can get on a made horse and win. A good horseman can make that horse great. Much more succinct than my answer. No,

1:03:15Speaker B I like your answer. No, I loved yours. That was really good.

1:03:18Speaker A That

1:03:18Speaker B was

1:03:19Speaker A really good. Really good. And I feel like it resonated a little bit with you, Simon as well. I feel like you chat away to your

1:03:25Speaker C horses the whole

1:03:25Speaker A way around and you would

1:03:26Speaker C put them having a nice time over a first place.

1:03:30Speaker B Yeah, I'm. I'm. Yeah, I'm not a. Yeah, I'm not really a winner.

1:03:36Speaker C Nor me.

1:03:38Speaker B I just, I. I love them having a nice time and I love having a great. I mean, if I win at the end of having a lovely time, then happy days. But, but, yeah, no, I. I want the horses to have a really nice time. I think if. If they're having a nice time, then I'm gonna have a nice time. And that is the main theme because life is really short and it's all about having a great time as far as I'm concerned.

1:03:57Speaker C And then the honour. I think the best thing about eventing is the honour of them trusting you. Cross country, you look there and they're like, oh, where? Quick, let's find a fence. That's a cool feeling. And I think if you can give them good spins, happy spins, enjoyable spins, I'm sure that was doable at a faster rate than I ever managed, but that's a great feeling. I just remember the one picture that I love

1:04:22Speaker A and it came out a lot of Michael Young on Sam and they're going over this enormous fence and the horse's Body is straight, but his eyes and Sam and Michael's eyes are on the next fence and they're both looking in the same direction, even though the both of their bodies are still jumping this fence. And it's just the most magical photo because that horse clearly loved his.

1:04:44Speaker B In sync with him

1:04:46Speaker A and he's so in sync with his rider. If Michael had been like, their eyes were just in the same point, he could think and the horse knew and it just. I love that photo. To show people of, like, if you don't think horses love it, this horse does.

1:04:59Speaker C A gorgeous. Similar photo that touched me was there's a photo of Toddy at Badminton in the, like, 80s on charisma and he's walking back from a dressage practice, you know, so I might not have even been in a hat, but I might be dating it a bit more. But anyway, the horse is on Buckle End. Well, Toddy's obviously just sort of smiling away, but both of them have got like, focus, hunger, desire, winning, sparkle. And it's like they are. That was the epitome of, you know, what made him so brill is like uber chilled, natural genius talent, but

1:05:34Speaker B a huge competitor at the same time.

1:05:36Speaker C Yeah. And they've got it and all they're doing is a free rein walk on the buckle end, home from a schooling session. And it's like, you know, that personifies their brilliance.

1:05:46Speaker A Oh, I'm gonna have to dig that out.

1:05:49Speaker C I'll try and find it. I'll try and find it.

1:05:51Speaker A Lucy Jackson, apart from me making you late for the pub, what's annoyed you this week?

1:05:54Speaker C No, that was it. And also the M5 today, I was coming up from Cornwall. It took us nearly four and three quarter hours and it should have taken three. That was.

1:06:05Speaker B Oh, yuck.

1:06:07Speaker A Yeah, I hate that I leave

1:06:09Speaker C Cornwall on a Friday. That was the motto.

1:06:11Speaker A Moral of that story. Stay another night, go to the pub down there. Simon Grieve, has anything annoyed you this week? Have you got yourself

1:06:19Speaker B anonymous commenters on Facebook? You know when you've got, like, you've got these. The BSJA group, which is wrong because it's bs. But anyway, BSJ Group or the British Benton Group, whatever. And then you've got some random name, like, I know, Billy Bibbollox 25 or whatever. And then. And they're like, there was one that was. They were talking about livery expenses and somebody put, oh, what's everyone charging for livery now? And then somebody else anonymously wrote, I pay. And they're like, that's all livery and turnout Bringing in, changing rugs, clipping, all that kind of stuff. And then somebody wrote underneath saying, Oh, I pay £450amonth for that, which is clearly rubbish. And like. And then everybody just jumps on it and starts like. And I'm like, no, don't give them the time of day. They're just trying to, like, draw attention to themselves. Stop it. So anonymous commenting is. I find it so annoying, so. It's so annoying. It's like, if you've got like a comment to make, at least do it as yourself because you're clearly not brave enough to make it. Like, if you can't

1:07:32Speaker A say something to someone's face, don't say it online. That is should be the motto of life.

1:07:37Speaker B Yeah,

1:07:38Speaker A yeah. Right. What's annoyed me this week, the fact that there seems to be a worldwide shortage on estrogen patches that I take.

1:07:48Speaker B Oh, no, Jay, disaster.

1:07:50Speaker A And I'm slightly worried that I won't be able to get them and I might have to punish.

1:07:54Speaker B Please make sure you get them before next week. I cannot cope with you at your horse live without

1:07:58Speaker A them. It's not looking likely. It is not looking likely. So brace yourselves. Buckle up, people. Angry Jenny might be back. Oh, God. Right. This has been wonderful. Yeah.

1:08:14Speaker B Lucy, thank you so much. It's been really brilliant. It's a

1:08:17Speaker C pleasure. What a treat. Thank you, guys.

1:08:19Speaker A I just feel like you've got to come back on because I feel like we could just, you and Simon bashing on about like 90s eventing as well could be wonderful.

1:08:27Speaker C I

1:08:27Speaker A feel like there's stories.

1:08:29Speaker C It's a yes for me.

1:08:31Speaker A Thank you. And you've been incredibly honest and sharing and just taking the time out. What a great, great guest. Thank you so much. And if 12 year old Lucy could look at how Lucy now is doing, would she be happy with where you've been and gone and done and doing?

1:08:49Speaker C Yeah. Kick on, I think.

1:08:52Speaker A Yeah,

1:08:53Speaker C Yeah. I think it used to slightly bug me that dad was very. Cause he wasn't horsey. He would be encouraging of us getting more strings to our bow. So go and do your degree in physio and go. And I broke my leg, so I had to go and do a sectarial course and learn to touch type. And I just at the time thought, what am I going to do? Lucy Wiegisma was my hero and she had to give up. She was able to give UP school after GCSEs. Like, she was what I wanted to be. And I think Lucy, actually, she's so bright. She went and did probably 10 degrees at home on her own and got A's in all of them.

1:09:29Speaker B Another amazing girl.

1:09:31Speaker C Unbelievable. And I think you can keep your eyes on the prize, where you want to get to who you want to be, what you want to do. But keep feathering your nest for what happens when you don't just want to be an eventer. And I think that maybe is my parting message to young eventers. Be a brill eventer. Give it all you've got. Train as hard as you can, get the best results you can. But don't think that you're becoming less of an eventer by making sure you've got other skills to fall back on as when and if you ever don't want to be. Because it just took me a little while, even with other options to find a way.

1:10:08Speaker B And at one some stage you won't want to be anymore. Like it will come at some point. You will want to do other things. So that's a really great message. It's really important to have other strings to your bow because you say you were saying to fall back on and I've always said that. But actually it's not about falling back on it either. It's making use of it in the future

1:10:28Speaker C because

1:10:28Speaker B you're going to have to.

1:10:29Speaker C Yeah,

1:10:29Speaker A yeah. So wise. Who needs so wise?

1:10:34Speaker C And don't.

1:10:35Speaker A If you're thinking about a thoroughbred, go and get one and Lucy will help you train it.

1:10:38Speaker C Yes. Www.thehowdenway.com Tap

1:10:44Speaker A on that note. Go to the publish. Lucy Jackson. Have a drink for me. But all that is left to say is thank you so much for coming on. Right. Don't forget to buy tickets to the tour. Please come on the tour, Lucy. Please come and see us on the tour as well. They're on the Super Cross country website. But thank you so much, Lucy.