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At the outbreak of World War Two, MI6 spymaster Thomas Kendrick launched a top secret operation in which German prisoners' cells were bugged and secret listeners installed behind the walls to record and transcribe their private conversations, an operation that would eventually expand to three clandestine sites including Trent Park in North London and Latimer House and Wilton Park in Buckinghamshire. Historian and leading expert Helen Fry joins the show to discuss her critically acclaimed book, walking through how high-ranking Nazi generals were given phony interrogations, then wined, dined, and encouraged to talk freely, never suspecting that every word was being captured and fed directly to Allied command. This episode is an essential listen for anyone drawn to the hidden architecture of wartime intelligence, covert deception operations, and the extraordinary human stories behind the greatest eavesdropping program in the history of modern warfare
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Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and death spy stories and the amazing devices and operations that made them possible. Now let's get started.
Back everyone, Today, we have a great guest, doctor Helen Fries. She's read numerous books on the Second World War, with particular reference to the ten thousand Germans and Austrians who fought for Britain. With a portfolio of experiences of World War Two, historian, Helen undertakes consultancy work for documentary companies and as a consultant historian for location filming of World War Two scenes for TV channels including BBC, ITV and Channel four. She's also been engaged in a range of writer whiter projects, including the for school's curriculum and adult education related to World War One, World War Two, and the Cold War. She's an honorary member of the Association of Jewish Refugees and associate editor for I Spy Magazine.
She's also an ambassador for the Museum of Military Intelligence and president of the Friends of the National Archives. But we're not going to be talking about any of that today. Actually, we're gonna be talking about two of her books. For more recent books.
One of them is called right Get Right Here, The Walls have ears. It's the General. Nope, not the General.
It's the Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two. So again the Walls have years. The Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two is one book we're going to be discussing, and the other one is m I nine. So we're going to be looking at these books together and talking about them. Before we get started, make sure to share, subscribe, and hit that like button that's always any more time.
Walking to the show, Doctor Frye. Welcome, Doctor Frye.
Thank you, it's great to be with you today.
Thank you very much for doing this. We truly appreciate it.
So the problem.
The first thing I wanted to do is what got you into World War Two history?
Oh, I've always been interested in history, and I think the inspiration, as for many people, often comes from a teacher. And there was a very particular teacher when I was a teenager who was inspirational. In fact, his period of expertise was not actually the Second World War. But I've always loved history, and I got into this subject because I was looking at the ten thousand Germans, mainly Jewish, who fought for Britain in the Second World War, and of course there's an equivalent story in America of around fourteen thousand German Jews who fought with the American forces.
So very quickly you soon realize the knowledge of language. They're taken into intelligence work stuff behind enemy lines. And once I got into this, I got hooked, completely hooked. So it was quite accidental in many ways.
Yeah, the world of the ESPNI is kind of addicting, isn't it.
It's detective work. It's kind of trying to see if you can solve the mysteries, which, of course his stories have been trying to solve for decades.
Folks.
I did forget to mention on her new book at m I nine. It's a history of the Secret Service for escape and Evasion in World War Two. I was having a little bit of a difficulty reading what I was saying there.
So doctor Fryar, I guess your first book, The Walls Have Ears? What is this all about?
Yeah, so this is a top secret a bugging operation during the Second World War. Many of your listeners will probably have heard of the work of the codebreakers at Bletchley Park, but of course it's not just the cracking of the Enigma codes. I suppose today what goes over the internet. To give a contemporary analysis or analogy, we also need to human intelligence and the British Intelligence Service later working with American intelligence after Pearl Harbor believed that one of your most important sources of intelligence are your prisoners of war. Yeah, you're Germans and Italians as well, But how do you get the information out of them?
You can't rough them up in interrogation. Doesn't give you anything particularly useful or reliable. How do you know it's reliable. It's against the Geneva convention. So the commanding officer of this particular unit, Thomas Joseph Kendrick, who is whose father was American. Anyway, he was far cleverer and devised a whole unit that would inadvertently or surreptitiously bug the conversations of German prisoners of war. So, just to say briefly, they would have a sort of phony interrogation, and they thought their war was over. They'd go back to their room, chat to their cellmate and brag about what they hadn't told the interrogating officer. And they thought they were so smart and so clever, but of course there were microphones
hidden in the light fittings and sometimes in the fireplaces.
Oh man, so Huber's got the best of them. Why now, Kendrick, what was his position again? He using the military or was he an intelligence?
Yes? He was. He was a commanding officer of the whole unit and established this from scratch. He'd already spent nearly thirty years working in British intelligence from Boa War South Africa nineteen oh one he was just twenty one years old, and all the way through the First World War in France in intelligence, and then in the nineteen twenties and thirties he's working for what today we call MI six in Vienna running spy networks. He's expelled by the Gestapo by the German authorities for allegedly spying, which of course he denies, and he's back in London in the summer of nineteen thirty eight, and that's when he starts preparing this unit that will springing to action at the outbreak of war whenever that's going to happen. And
of course we now know it was the third of September nineteen thirty nine that Britain was at war with Nazi Germany and his unit, he might probably want to talk about this, but his unit went on to mask the most incredible volume upon volumes of information and intelligence that actually turned the tide of the war, alongside the code breaking of Bletchley Park.
Yeah, I know in your book you mentioned I forget what it was.
It was like these these homes they were trained into prisons or something and Trent Park and they were Yeah, on the interrogation.
Is that part of what you were talking about earlier? Is that a separate entity?
No, this is part of it. And I suppose I'm personally am reluctant to use the word prison, and the word prison is never used in the intelligence files have been declassified. Trent Park in North London, right there at the end of the Piccadilly Line. Could all look on your map of the underground of London. It was sort of known as Special Quarters and from nineteen forty two this was where Kendrick held Hitler's captured generals who started to come off battlefields North Africa. Of course, by May nineteen forty three and that had collapsed, and then after Sicily Italy, after D Day, all Hitler's top commanders his generals, Field marshals. They all end up in this house, and Kendrick has two other houses just outside London called Latham
House and Wilson Park, so it's deep in the countryside, away from prying eyes. Nobody knows what's going on at these secret sites.
Ominous. That sounds quite ominous.
And I know we're going to get into a little bit more of the interrogation aspect is in your book.
It's almost like you're kind of guiding.
Us to this evolution of interrogation by Kendrick, like almost how I developed an intelligence and how it improved?
Am I how far off on that?
Yeah? I mean he's already a pretty skilled person by the time he opens this unit because he understands human psychology. He's good actually at enabling personnel in the air, minustry, Army, naval intelligence, all these kind of rivalries between the departments. He's the ideal man to set aside those egotistic infighting, which has been a problem for intelligence before. But not only that, he very rapidly ramps up this unit. He starts in a very small way in the Tower of London.
Tower of London are iconic tourist attraction. Today, that's September nineteen thirty nine, and just within a few months he's got his eye on needing a proper big place outside London, and that's when he requisitions Trent Park and increases his staff from just six, just six of them when they started, to over five hundred, and by five hundred by the middle of the war. He's got about a thousand intelligence personnel alongside American intelligence. So he's ramped it up and he goes on to listen well, his personnel listening to the conversations of over ten thousand Key prisoners of war, German prisoners of war. And as we've already said, those hop commanders Hitler's top commanders. And you know, nobody ever
asks what happened to Hitler's generals when they were captured on the battlefields of Normandy. I did well. They ended up in his stately home, Trent Park, and there they were wined and dined, and they lived the life of relative luxury. And they didn't think or question why they were not in this and huts with barbed wire. They were in a beautiful, stately home, plenty of wine and whiskey.
But of course, as you know, the Walls Have.
E that's a big con game there.
It's marvelous. Who would believe it?
That's crazy stuff. Yeah, if you saw in a movie, if you pitched it as a movie, you probably say nobody would believe that story. You can't do that again, folks.
The book is called The Walls Heavy Years, The Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two, by doctor Helen Fry.
It's really a fascinating and something you don't usually read in the history books, that's for sure.
Let me ask you doctor Fry, as you mentioned, he got a lot of access to Hitler's secrets. I guess anything that stood alfree as we were doing a research and he said, how could this be?
Yeah?
Absolutely, with the Walls Have Ears. One of the big pieces of intelligence they get on Hitler's secret weapons on the V one and the V two and even the V three towards the end of the war. And I'd never heard of a V three, So of course we had information coming out from behind enemy lines. We'd had bits and pieces about a possible secret weapon. But the penny finally drops when Hitler's generals at Trent Park and after the fall of Stalingrad. Of course, the Russian campaign was ended in defeat for the Germans after you know, they invaded in June forty one. But of course that whole campaign collapses and Stalin Grad finally falls in early nineteen forty three, and those generals that have already been
captured are sat in the house. They've got delayed news that this has happened. One of them says, it's quite humorous. Really, he says, I wish I'd shot myself and they captured, so you've got everyday life and conversations which can be really fascinating. But one of them says they're thoroughly depressed and gloomy. And one of them says, that's it, We've lost the war. And actually it's General foun Toma who is captured in North Africa brought to Trent. Parker says, no, we haven't. We've got the secret weapon that is going to turn the tide of the war. And now we take this intelligence seriously. And in my book I trace from these bugged conversations about the secret weapon. They mentioned Penny Munda, where Hitler's developing it on the North German coast,
and there is now a directly you can see it in the files between that and Churchill ordering the bombing of Pinnimunda in August nineteen forty three. And I've done some more analysis for my next book about Kendrick actually Spymaster, and you begin to realize that if we hadn't knocked out that site in August nineteen forty three, we actually could have lost the war. We certainly couldn't have mounted the D Day landings. And in knocking out this site, I think it's just the final thing I would say on this point, unless you have other questions, that it was knocked out in August forty three. But the first V one, that massive super weapon, did not land on London until a week after D Day June forty four.
That's nine months. And my question to the audience is to think, what if we hadn't discovered this in time? And it is now recognized that without this intelligence we Germany could have won the tech war, and that's true for the V one, V two, V three atomic bomb program. We're picking up all of this stuff. When I say we the British intelligence services in close collaboration and working partnership with the American intelligence. So it's awesome stuff. This new research.
Yeah, that's amazing stuff and stuff you don't see on the textbooks, that's for sure.
I guess that's kind of a goad.
Yeah that I was going to say, actually you don't because it's still so very new. The files were only declassified about ten years ago, and it takes time. I mean I got to them just within quite accidentally, just within a few months that they've been declassified. And some of it's so dense, you know, the conversations are very technical in many cases that I think his stories, if they pull them up, would just send them back again. Think, oh, but you've got to persist. And the reason I persisted was because of what we call a secret listener, and these were German Jewish refugees who were taken up by Kendrick's unit to sit in what were known as m rooms with their headsets on, like we've got our headsets
on now in the m rooms, recording the conversations at those three sites. And I promised him, you know, he said to me, Fritz Lostig sign the Official Secrets Act. At the end of the war we went into civilian life. Did we do anything that made any difference to the war, He said, I sat in the countryside for three years. Yeah, safe, I lost comrades on the battlefields. Did we do anything that made a difference. Nobody told us. They just thanked us at the end of the war. It was all hush hush. And now the files have been declassified. I promised him I would look at them and I would answer that question. And even I was staggered by the sheer volume of intelligence we were getting. We were getting it nowhere else than these sites. And it is true
to say that with blatch Sheep and the code breaking, you know, without that, we couldn't have won the war. That's I know, it's a very brief assessment, but that's what I argue in the book, and I hope readers will be convinced.
Again, Folks definitely recommend the book.
It's a fascinating read, and I'll definitely give you a different perspective of history. The Walls have ears the greatest intelligence operation of World War Two.
And I guess I have a couple of questions, not necessarily.
Directly about the book, but maybe a little bit a little bit about it and a little bit about process.
I know, when I've spoken to other authors.
At least in the US, I've spoken to a few obviously in the UK as well, but when I've spoken to the US, it's complicated to get these files, these classified files or declassified files. They have to do a lot of work. At least they have to go to special places to go access them. How is it for you in the UK? Is it the same processes it take a lot of work to get them when they give you classified or is it simpler?
No, it's the whole research process is a detective process. It's a journey and you never know when you start out how long it's going to take. You obviously have to scope what files have been declassified. We don't have access to classified files. Nobody has that privilege, with a couple of exceptions from Keith Jeffrey who wrote the fficial History of m I six example, or Christopher Andrew who wrote the ficial History of m I five. But generally historians have no access, so they have to work with what's in the National Archives in London. But also I was lucky enough to interview surviving veterans who are actually no longer with us, and you also rely occasionally on relatives coming out of the woodwork saying I've got this
suitcase of papers, and I have no idea what my dad did or what my mother did, and you begin to piece together. So it is a process, and with intelligence history you can never get a totally full picture because there's still stuff I guess that can never be really east. But I'm okay with that. I used to think when I was younger that we had to tell the whole story. And with a lot of history books and with other kinds of history, I think we can can make huge progress. But with intelligence history, sometimes you're working on stuff later on, a few years down the line, and you come across something hidden deep in the files that connects to something earlier. So there's always a process and a journey of understanding, and it's not always a
complete picture because of course it was so top secret.
That's a great point. That's hard too. And when you go on back in time to get.
Get the whole stories, it's almost impossible in a lot of ways.
There's so much going on. Even in our own.
History books, right we only hear get snippets of stories. We could actually have a whole course on each each chapter in one of those history books if you really wanted to push it let.
Me ask you this. Actually, you know what, I'll keep this for the end.
I'll keep this question, okay, the end, which is just it's an opinion question if did Hitler really die?
But we'll get to that link. Oh gosh, that seems to be a conspiracy that still lives today for some strange yes, it does. As a historian, how I get your take? We're switching over to a group that I hadn't heard about before.
Am I nine, a History of the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in World War Two. This is her other book, folks, and she has several books you might want to check out. This is a thrilling history of nine, the World War Two organization that engineer the escape of Allied forces from behind enemy lines.
So let's find out all about this, doctor five. What'sm I nine.
Yeah, So this is on the spectrum of military intelligence. And so we've mentioned already, haven't we m I five and mi I six, And people are very familiar with those British intelligence institutions. But for us, it goes from m I one all the way up to m I nineteen, and each each had their own you know, brief and it has changed since foundation I mean the services in nineteen oh nine, British Secret Service and British Intelligence Services.
The Military Intelligence Band that I nine specifically is in charge of prisoners of war, whether it's our prisoners in prisoner of war camps or trapped behind enemy lines, or whether it's enemy prisoners of war. And the idea, of course Kendricks unit we talked about earlier originally fell within MI I nine. M I nine became so big it branched into I nine and m I nineteen in nineteen forty two. So this is this gives you an idea of what's ramping up in terms of intelligence. So I nine proper then is left with our prisoners of war trying to get intelligence from our personnel, but also to bring them back to escape or to evade capture in the first instance, to train them before they go into action.
So there was a three training course for all personnel, and the Americans did exactly the same. To think, because if you're captured, if you've just bailed out of an aircraft, you might not think logically, or you might not be so security conscious because you can give yourself away very easily. And so nine gave a three week training course so that you had a chance to evade, capture or escape.
And the important thing is to get our personnel back to fight another day. And if you think about pilots in particular, they're very expensive to train, but it actually takes up to three months. You can't be losing your pilots because the German Air Force could quickly gain superiority and then well, yeah, imuntine invasion of Britain for example, of the United Kingdom, so very very high priority, and the Germans didn't seem to have an equivalent the Americans did.
The Americans had, American intelligence had mish X, rather obscure and name for it. But they were doing exactly the same thing. They were bringing Allied personnel back from Western Europe and of course from the Far East, the Middle East wherever they were trapped potentially in enemy occupied territory.
And Emma and I went on to save over thirty five thousand Allied personnel and to bring them back. It's a huge legacy.
Yeah, it is. That's amazing. It's amazing just listening to you how large the breath World War two is. I mean, there's so much going on.
At least I haven't heard a lot of it that that's happened through it. No matter how much you read, there's just so much happening everywhere. Now in this book, you know, you drew a lot on declassified files I can normally do and eyewitness testimonies. Was this one a little bit more heavy on the eyewitness testimonies or declassified files?
You think.
I use?
Yeah, I think it's the same for both of them. I used. I went to the primary sources because there have been books before on I nine, but not for forty years. And there were two men in MI I nine who were the giants at our end in Britain. One of them was Airy Neve, who famously was blown up by the IRA, wasn't it? And Thatcher's government and Jimmy Langley. They wrote books, one of them with Mdr Foot, but they didn't have access to declassified files. So Yale University Press sort of, you know, put it to me, wouldn't it be good to write an updated version of the m I nine and what more can we discover?
And then we kind of sat there and realized it had been forty years since anyone had written its history, and forty years and the file to come out in the meantime. So what I've done, and I think it's worked very well, is you've got the organization of m I nine in the background, in the American equivalent, but within that, and it's done chronologically. I've told and woven the stories, the key stories escape routes across Europe. I concentrate primarily on Western Europe because it's a huge topic. Otherwise, so that people get an understanding of the achievements, not only the organization. It's not dry that I am. I intered in the human stories. Those thousands of men and women who acted as helpers, guides, couriers, who saved are personnel.
Their acts of bravery really shined through and they are extraordinary.
Absolutely, And I know you even mentioned Mary Lindell.
I think, yes, one of the females, one of the only females I think right.
In regards to parachuting or something like that.
Perrier, well, yeah, there was Vitres Truand who was parachuted into Holland. But Holland was a very tricky situation. She was captured. Nine had a top secret section called IS nine or Intelligence School nine. It stood for also under the umbrella known as Room nine. Hundred and this they love all these obscure names. It's the same thing. But Room nine hundred was sending agents behind enemy lines, and Beatrice Truda was one of them behind enemy lines in the same way as we think of SE the Special Approations Executive. Everybody knows about SOE and the courageous agents men and women. And you have the Americans too, don't you.
There were parachute behind enemy lines, drop behind any lines, all sorts of ways, landed by boat, whatever. But m I nine, under its top secret section, Room nine hundred percenting its own agents, and Mary Lindell was another one who worked. She also we believe had some links with MI six SIS as it's also known, so she was also sort of working with them. But she went on to save known as the Cockleshell Heroes, and they were the condos that were on top secret mission to Bordeaux canoe down the river to place limpet mines on the German ships in the port of Bordeaux. Two of them were successful, actually, but only two of them got back.
The rest lost their lives. So it's hugely dangerous mission. Of twelve of them involved, and Mary Lindell surveys. Sorry Mary Lindell rescued the only two survivors of that mission, and her bravery against steely Nerve is really worth reading about. In the book She Was Fearsome.
It was an amazing There's so many incredibly strong, brave females in the world of espionage and World War Two and over the years, it's amazing as you listen to some of these stories.
Again, folks.
The book is called them I nine The History of the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in World War Two by doctor Helen Frye. We also talked a little bit about her other books, Through the Walls, Heavy Ears. She's got over twenty books, that's right, twenty books focusing on intelligence and POW's and World War Two. So if this is your genre, definitely recommend the books. If you haven't read the genre, I highly recommend the books. It's kind of hard not to recommend the book.
Doctor Frye.
I guess as we get away from these last two books now, just a couple of questions in regards to.
Things in society people always kind of wonder about. I guess, is there are there any movies out there?
And I know this might be a little tricky because you're overseas, over there across the pond, as they say. But are there any movies that stand out for you that you say that's pretty spot on or that's way off the mark in regards to World War Two?
Well, there was one that came out recently actually called A Call to Spy and it is available on like the Netflix platform and others. And for me, that seemed very very close to a story about female agents in France dropped into France. And usually those stories are quite similar, you know, previous films, but this one, there's something special about this one, and you get a close understanding of the difficult decisions which face the lady who sent the female agents in particular, and well and she sent male agents into France was one Vera Atkins, And you get a sense the film has very the first time has focused on her and three of her agents, and I think we finally, very subtly get an understanding of the
challenges she faced and how it worked behind the scenes, and then that's woven into the brave story of people like yak Nor Khan. And I always forget the name of the American one that where it was dropped in with the wooden leg. Her name escapes me immediately. I remember, since you finished the interview, it'll come to me. Virginia Hall.
There you go. Yeah, very brave woman. In fact, she was smuggled out of France over the Pyrenees by the M I nine networks. Oh really interestingly. Yeah, it's a fantastic scene in the film A Call to Spy, and I hugely recommend it where she is struggling and you just get the sense of, oh my gosh, how difficult it was to get out over the Pyrenees. And there she is struggling with her wooden leg, but she does make it, she escapes, and yeah, you get a sense of the bravery. And to me, it feels as though that film was kept very close to reality, and it felt very real. Yeah. So I enjoyed that film very much and I'm a huge fan of it.
Oh, I have I have to look at that card, Despi. I guess I'd be remissing. I don't mention it. What are your thoughts, as I know you're more of a historian per se than solely focused on spies, but what's your take on James Bond?
That's not controversial at all? Okay, a couple of things about James Bond. I think I've grown to enjoy the films more as I've got older. I love the more recent ones. I think they're fantastic. Yeah, I do. And Okay, he's always blowing up. The big buildings are falling on top of him almost and he's leaping between, you know, doing the impossible. But we expect that that's what we want from our James Bond. Our Ian Fleming's character's the license that's gone further. But interestingly it is quite a bit, certainly in the early stuff which comes from Ian Fleming's wartime career. So there's me merely thinking he's been quite a genius in you know, these novels. But the escape gadgets, for example, they're part of m I nine, and Fleming
was linked to m I nine. I think for me it's also fun. I don't sit there and watch the James Bond films and think, oh, I've read that in the files. I do sit there and I enjoy them, but I think now i'm older, I think I enjoy them because you get a sense that in places they are very close to the truth. But as with everything, it's walls and mirrors and you don't know which bits are absolutely true, but you just get a feeling that it is rooted in that world. And of course it's gone beyond that world. It's for our entertainment, But I do love Fleming stuff. Yeah, I guess.
My other question is one of my favorite shows from the UK was Foyle's War.
I love Foyle's War. If anybody's listening that has any influence, please we want more of Foyle's War.
Yeah, bring back Michael Kitchen. What's your take on that. That seem to be pretty accurate or is it?
Yes, Yeah, it's very accurate. In a couple of places they change the locals, but there is a scene, for example, an interrogation scene. It's very close to the truth. And that tips over into another book I did on the London cage as it was called cage slang interrogation quarters. So yeah, he does meticulous research and he's quite open I believe about the fact that some of it is based is being inspired by stuff he's read in the National Archives.
Amazing, amazing.
Across the whole series.
Yeah, yeah, and how.
He takes that personal human side of that time, that's the amazing thing for me. Because you see, it wasn't just about the war, it was about everything else that disrupts, love lives.
Yeah, family, everything was just amazing.
And Foyle himself says very little. If you think about how many lines he says, it's all about his face and his movements, and he's just a glance and it says it all. We all understand what it means. But yeah, if your viewers can get hold of if they haven't seen Foyle's War, yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. And the twists and things.
Yeahs, I'm sorry.
I had a lot of murders in that area of Hastings, didn't they in World War Two? According to Foyle's War.
Yeah, it's like a serial killer on the loose over there.
I know, it's fantastic stuff. I loved it. I loved it.
I guess my last question, I guess we'll wrap up with Hitler. Is he really dead or not? I can't believe.
I know where people still believe Elvis Presley over here is possibly still alive, and JFK is somewhere as well.
Hitler. It was interesting because I think even Discovery Channel or HBO what are those cable channels took it.
A step further last year when they started doing a documentary on Hitler and his general's over in Argentina.
Yeah, so he got crazy.
What do you say, Well, it's not something I've personally researched myself about the whole crep of Nazi flight and those that got out to Argentina, etc. But yeah, I mean, of course Hitler would be dead now, he'd be far too old to be still alive, so that we know. So answer to your question, is he dead? The answer is yes. Do I think he made it out of the bunker? No, I think he died in the bunker, But there's always you know, you never know for sure because you know that could be turned on its head.
But based on the current evidence we have, yes, it's I think, yeah, he died in the bunker. In fact, I interviewed a veteran who is still alive, and he was involved in counterintelligence in that period at the end of the war. He was on he came over on the Kinder transports. He's of the young, slightly younger, he's still in his late nineties now, and he said, there's absolutely no doubt that Hitler died in the bunker, because I asked him. I said, look, this is flying around and there's absolutely no question, according to him, that Hitler died in the bunker. So yeah, I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories.
I'm not either, but sometimes make for interesting chats.
I guess, well, look it gets us thinking and reassessing evidence. I think that's always important that we that we're challenged at times.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely again, folks of the books, doctor Helen Frye f r Y.
The book is m I nine, a history of the Secret Service for escaping invasion in World War Two. The other book we talk briefly about as well in the beginning of the show. Again briefly is because they're only touching the tip of the iceberg, folks, it's called The Walls Half Ears. Another great book she just mentioned. I think it's The London Cage. But she has over twenty books, lots of books focusing on intelligence and POWs. So if you're into the espionage world, these are the books for you.
Doctor fry Thank you so much for.
Being here, Thank you for having me.
Fabulous stuff, folks, Thank you for listening. Make sure to share, subscribe. Hey, if you're on Apple, give us those five stars. We truly appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Everybody
