The Science of Outscoring Steph Curry with Neil deGrasse Tyson

This is StarTalk Sports Edition. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist and sports enthusiast. That's why we do Sports Edition. And I got with me Gary O'Reilly, of course.

Gary.

Hi, Neil.

Former soccer pro over in the UK and current soccer announcer.

It's great.

Thanks for sharing some of your announcing time with us over here in Sports Edition. Now, Gary, you were cooking up something for this installment.

Yes.

You got some recipe that you didn't share with me in advance. So let me hear what you got going now.

All right.

So we've gone back to an old recipe from our Playing With Science days and brought forward a show about the Skyhook. The Skyhook isn't like a missile from the original Star Wars movie or anything spectacular like that. It is the signature shot from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA legend and martial arts expert. Now, this shot is.

Just to be clear, he's not just any old martial arts person. He was trained by one of the best.

That being Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee, of course.

And starred in one of his movies. Now, there's 38,387 points, which is the record all-time points tally in NBA history. Kareem owns that. He hasn't played for 30-odd years, yet he still owns it. That's how lethal a shot this Skyhook is. And with you talking to him, you break down the mechanics, the geometry, and the physics of it.

And he understood all of that.

That was quite the conversation that I had. I distinctly remember that. He was sitting in my office and his legs, I don't know if I should interview his legs or him. You know, what's the difference?

He's seven foot two, the dude's tall. And the thing is, the story behind the story is very StarTalk for us. So we found two of his teammates from the LA Lakers during that 80s decade, the most successful decade in Lakers history.

The dynasty.

Yes, the dynasty, Showtime. and we spoke to Jamal Wilkes and Michael Cooper, and we unlocked stories of what it was like to be part and parcel of that whole sporting franchise. Now, there's a lovely little human interest story. One of the players, Jamal and Michael, their grandmother has glaucoma, and she can't see the TV as well, so the player decides that he will do something on court that will enable his grandmother to see that it's him playing on court. So I'd like those people to listen and then they'll understand what that is. And if it doesn't touch you, then go and get yourself checked out because you might just have a heart of stone.

Okay.

Or no heart at all.

Maybe that.

Well, as they say, Gary, let's roll tape.

I'm Gary O'Reilly.

And I'm Chuck Nice.

And this is Playing With Science. Yes, indeed. Today's show is a bit different because we're featuring the first of our Game Changers series. A series where we take a single athlete and examine how they straight up broke the game and rebuilt it to suit their own style.

Yeah, so to tip us off, we have chosen a man who nearly 30 years after he retired is still alive. The NBA's leading all-time point scorer, a man who owns six, count them, six NBA titles and an acting career that boasts a Bruce Lee movie as well as the airplane movie.

What hasn't this man done?

We're gonna find out, but there's not much he hasn't done. A player who invented his own shot, the Skyhook. Have we worked it out yet? For such an offensive weapon, it might surprise you to know he ranks, still ranks third in the NBA's all-time records for not just rebounds, but blocks.

Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, the man who changed the game of basketball, we're talking none other than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

And to help us take a trip down memory lane, we asked Neil deGrasse Tyson to hook up with the man himself while we wrap with former Lakers superstars and teammates Michael Cooper. and Jamal Wilkes. Chuck, let's do it.

We need to do this.

And first, to kick things off, joining us by video call, we are super excited to have Jamal Wilkes, better known as Silk.

What's up, Jamal?

Hey, Chuck.

How you doing? Hey, Gary. It's a pleasure to be with you guys today.

Jamal, the pleasure is us.

Yeah, without a doubt.

Just to talk to any of the guys who were around that organization at that time is such a thrill for us because... You just reinvented the game, let alone what Kareem did on his own.

Yeah, I mean, when you look at the dynasty that you guys had and the type of talent that was brought on to this NBA team, you look at, just look at you.

I mean, come on.

Rookie of the Year, right? If I remember.

Three-time NBA All-Star, if I remember. Nicknamed Silk because we know you had the stroke. I mean, this team was always just chock full of superstars. All of you, I mean, no matter where you look. So, you know, before we before we get into how it is to play as a superstar on a team of superstars, you know, we're talking about Jamal. So let's take we're talking about I'm sorry, Jamal.

We're talking about Kareem. We're all talking about Jamal.

We're also talking about Jamal. And a little bit a little bit later, we're.

Going to talk to Michael Cooper, who I'm sure you are familiar with. But let's take a look at quintessential Jamal. Kareem clip so that we can see exactly what we're talking about when we say how he changed the game of basketball with the Skyhook.

Let's do it.

Magic the distance gives to Kareem.

Slam. Don't.

Great save. Still saved it.

Throws it to Kareem.

40 feet out.

What an athlete he is.

I'll say nobody else could have kept their balance.

Nobody could have caught.

Up with it.

Inside it goes to Kareem against Perry.

Back to Cooper.

Back to Kareem.

Swing left.

Shoot right.

That's good.

Kareem has got 11.

Nestled the net.

Tickle to twine.

48 to 48. Clark's got the ball.

50 to 48, the Lakers trail it.

Michael Cooper with the ball. Cooper dribbling at the top.

Of the key.

Magic getting a long rest. Ball into Kareem.

Going to swing left again.

And shoot right from 13.

And there it is again.

Perry says, come on, ease up, big fella.

And there he says, ease up.

So, you know, the thing about the Skyhook, and you could hear it from the announcer's POV, It's the same move, but it just seems to be indefensible.

Swing left, move right, up, boom.

Can you talk about what it was like to witness somebody who has an indefensible shot?

Absolutely.

Well, first of all, when you talk about Kareem, he was a perfectionist. And I tell people, had he been six feet tall, He'd have been a great basketball player. He was just so fundamentally sound at everything he did, and he could bring a level of concentration that was just otherworldly. But the Skyhook in particular, it's the most devastating offensive weapon in any sport that I've ever seen.

And it was a very simple shot, but he mastered it.

It was just.

Just an amazing experience to see that shot day in and day out. Not just the games, but practices, too. I mean, he practiced with all of us. He didn't take off practice. He was just a... A leader by example. He wasn't the most talkative individual back then, but he always led with his example. It was just a sheer delight to play with him.

So Neil deGrasse Tyson actually caught up with Kareem recently to chat about the legendary Skyhook, and we have a clip of their conversation, so let's take a listen.

What percent of your 38,000 points were Skyhook points, would you guess?

I'd say three quarters.

Three quarters. Yeah.

But, you know, I learned, everything I learned, you know, had to do with learning the mechanics of the shot and shooting a bow and arrow. Because you figure out what the drop is all about, you know, what the arc is all about. And once you got that figured out, you can, you become accurate. You're a marksman at that point.

So you're a basketball marksman.

You have to be. Well, if you're going to be successful, you know. And I led the league in field goal percentage a number of years. I think that was really my success. I had a successful shot that they couldn't block. That's what enabled me to endure.

What's intriguing about this hook shot, I think Bill Bradley famously was quoted saying that in the hook shot, because he also did the hook shot, the hook shot, your eyes are not on the ball or on your hand or anywhere near your arm.

No.

So that there's a sense of where the basket is relative to the ball if you have enough experience on the court. So you don't actually need to look at where the basket is. And you must agree with that because you were successful in the cook shot.

You don't have to know where the ball is. You got to keep your eye on the basket, but you don't have to have your eye on the ball.

Okay, but that requires some musculoskeletal connectivity. Yes.

That's why you practice.

It's the quote of the interview.

That's why you practice.

That's why you practice. So, Jamal.

Just pass out what Jamal was saying.

I know.

You said that.

So, was everybody aware of, you know, Kareem's work ethic? Because I have to tell you, I remember watching you guys play. And because it was showtime, everybody had something. such an emphasis on the fact that there were all these big personalities, these big superstars.

On the court.

Nobody you didn't hear anybody talking about the practice. You didn't hear anybody talking about the work ethic. You didn't hear anybody like when you talk when they talk about LeBron James today. They always talk about how hard he practices and how much he's trying to drive the team. You heard that a lot about Michael Jordan. Oh, this guy, he practices his work ethic, his work ethic. And you guys were a dynasty and all they talked about was like, oh, the show was in town. It almost made it seem like you guys just walked out on the court and it just happened like that. Talk to me about like your routine as a team to get to that place, because I'm sure there's a lot of hard work involved.

Oh, you're absolutely right, Chuck. And I couldn't agree with you more.

I'll talk about the work LeBron and Michael Jordan, but no one talks about that with Kareem. And, you know, it may have to do with the fact that he's seven feet tall. It seems like people just assume you're automatically good in basketball because you're tall. And that's why I say that even if he was six feet, he'd have been a top, top basketball player. I mean, this guy was just... really, really good at everything. And I couldn't agree with you more, Chuck. No one ever said that about Showtime. No one ever talked about how hard we worked. I remember when we played the Celtics. They were blue-collar guys. And we were Hollywood. And But we worked hard and our practices were as competitive as our games.

And I mean, Kareem did not take practices off. He worked just as hard as all of us did. And it's unfortunate that. that gets overlooked. And it's all about the glitz and the glamour, but not about the preparation, the planning and the effort, the hard work that we all put into it, including Kareem.

All right, let's play a little bit of fantasy basketball. How would the 80s Lakers fare in the NBA today with that pound for pound talent? Come on, you must have been asked this question before. Look at that smiling face. Look at that face.

Okay, Gary, I'm going to ask you a soccer question.

All right, by all means. Because there isn't a day goes by when I don't get better. I know.

I know.

I know. I understand that, Gary. I got that. You know, it's hard to compare different eras. Right. And we all do it.

Yeah, sure.

And the media loves it. And it drives interest in the game.

I get that. But I just have to say it's very difficult. But we would have fared very well. I mean— No, but we had everything.

We had the.

Ultimate inside game, and we had the outside game. Now, we weren't shooting three-pointers back then like they do today, only because it wasn't in vogue. We'd have been doing it, too. So, you know, I don't want to make predictions. I think we have some great teams today, some great players today, but we would have held our own. We'd have done very well.

It's funny to hear you say it wasn't in vogue to shoot three-pointers back then because during the time that you guys were playing and Magic was running the point, and I remember... All the kids who played basketball wanted to be like Magic. And so it was all about ball handling. It was all about no-look passing. It was all about how fancy and how good I could look getting the ball on a feed or faking a feed and going to the hole.

So it's funny how the game changes based on.

Who the stars of the game are at that time. And then the next generation emulating those stars, they actually changed the game based on what they have seen.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely correct.

It is interesting. Yeah, Magic was a game changer too. And, you know, Magic was just an incredible freak of nature. You know, being 6'9, point guard, handling the ball the way he did, seeing the floor the way he did. And those no-look passes... Before he came, you frowned down upon him, but he delivered them consistently that they became part of the game. And I think we're seeing that today with the Warriors and Steph Curry and the step back and going left and right. But getting back to Kareem and your point, Chuck, about how hard LeBron and Michael were, it really is unfortunate that the hard work he put in gets overlooked with the skyhook, which is just a thing of beauty to watch. Whether you like

basketball or not, it's a beautiful thing to watch.

And speaking of the skyhook being a thing of beauty, we have another clip where Neil deGrasse Tyson is talking to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and they kind of break down the physics of the skyhook. And so it's a thing of beauty not only to look at, but it's a thing of beauty in the world of physics, too.

Let's check it out.

When I look at a basketball game, part of me sees it as a physicist does. So... There's a ball, it's round. There's a hoop, which is bigger than the ball. And there are all manners of shots that come at it from different angles, different trajectories. And your sky hook, your hand at fully extended has got to be like eight or nine feet in the air. I mean, did they measure this?

When I shot the sky hook, my hand was about between 10 feet and 11 feet in the air.

Because you're also jumping.

Yeah, I'm also jumping.

Okay, so now the rim is 10 feet up.

Exactly 10 feet.

So the ball is basically going down. So the physics of this, of course, is the more the ball can just go down, the greater.

Chance it has for going in. Right, so you want to shoot a high arcing shot that drops.

That drops.

You don't want to just get it to crawl over the rim.

Yeah, if it just crawls over it, then there's, the cross section changes.

Much smaller.

Right, right, I don't know if people know that. So I can take this circle and angle it, the cross section to you is smaller now.

Right, so you want to get, your shot should have a high arc and come straight down.

Are you thinking about that physics when you were taking that shot? Because you had your physics class.

I understood what I wanted to do, so I had all the ballistics and everything worked out.

You see, Jamal, did you ever get the feeling that Kareem just had everything under control?

When I saw the Skyhook, I mean, I just marveled. I would think of Picasso. I would think of.

Wow.

I would think of John Coltrane. I would think of me Hendrix. I would think of... That's the only way I could think of it because it was, you know, it was so. Separate and apart from what anyone else was doing at that time, especially the centers. And no one's done it since. And I can't believe that, you know, all these seven footers now want to shoot three pointers. No one wants to shoot a sky hook anymore. So it was just then, even then watching it, I knew, and I think most of us had an idea that, you know, this just wasn't a shot. This was, you know, art. music on the highest level. And it was just, you know, I mean, I already said it, a thing of beauty. I can't express it any other way.

I'm happy with that.

Absolutely.

I can't think of a better compliment than to call what somebody does Coltrane.

And a thing of beauty.

It doesn't get any better than that.

That's right, Chuck.

It does not get any better than that. So what we're going to do right now is take a quick break. And Jamal, you can stand by with us, right?

Yes.

Fantastic.

So look, guys, we've got more Jamal Wilkes coming your way, more Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, more Skyhook, more everything.

Stay tuned.

Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

Chuck Nice.

And we are playing with science. Let's get straight to our next clip. The hook shot. Yes, the famous hook shot made famous by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But what about the hook shot today? Let's find out what the big man has to say.

For me, the hookshot is unjustifiably accurate. I took hookshots my whole life, and I was pretty good at it. Metal Lock Lemon in the Globetrotters, Harlem Globetrotters, that was, he'd go the other end of the court and just throw the thing up. Swish. So, why doesn't anyone shoot it anymore?

I think the hookshot has fallen out of favor because All the kids that are learning how to play the game want to shoot three-pointers. They don't want the ugly two-point shot down there in the paint getting bumped. They want to look real pretty out at 35 feet with something dropping in. Everybody's saying, ooh, and it's three points.

It looks pretty good in the hand. And it's three points, you know. So the three-point shot has changed the game. That's it. basically what it is.

We've got former teammate Jamal Wilkes with us and we're going to explore that. Jamal, thank you for staying with us. Why? Why, why, why, why, why did the Skyhook disappear off the map?

What happened?

Yeah, it's unbelievable. to me.

I think much of it has to do with the hype of the game now. On the newsreels, all the young kids grew up watching the slam dunk, you know, and the popular slam dunk contest. Along with the three-point shot, you know, guys, big guys now, guys coming over from Europe are valued because they can shoot the three-point shot as well. And that's all well and good. I think, you know, the inside game will come back. When someone wins a championship, then they'll all start emulating it again.

Exactly.

You know, for the life of me, I don't understand why any seven footer doesn't have a hook shot and relate the sky hook. I don't have an answer for that.

In this last clip, Neil deGrasse Tyson wanted to know how many three-point shots Kareem Abdul-Jabbar had taken in his career. I'll sit down for this one. Let's find out how many.

I shot 13 and I made one.

So your whole career, you got 10 years, if I did the math right, 10 years of your career was in the presence of the three-point line.

Right.

I think that's right.

10, 12, something like that.

Okay. So you had 13 attempts.

Right.

And you made one.

I made one.

So of your 38 billion points, 38,000 points, three of those were a three-point shot.

One three-point shot. The rest were all free throws and two-point shots.

So they don't need the big man outside the three-point line. So what the hell were you doing?

I was giving my team reliable shots close to the basket, which forced the defense to collapse a little bit and gave them more room on the perimeter.

But when you go to the perimeter and take a three-point shot, what were you thinking?

I'm probably going to be taken out for taking that shot.

Was it, come on guys, give me a chance here, please.

No, no. And the one shot that I made that The ball had like bounced out into the corner and I went and got it and nobody came to guard me. So I stepped back and said, okay, I'll shoot this one and I made it.

They should have like bronzed that ball and gave it to you.

So Jamal, if he'd have shot and missed, would he have been given a hard time?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Being Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was no protection, right?

Oh, no, absolutely not. Not in that situation.

Not in that situation. That's so funny.

And I'm sure if you took a three-pointer, people were expecting you to make it. If Kareem takes one, they're like, okay, well, we'll see. If he misses, he's like, well, you know, he's not supposed to make a three. But if you miss it, they're like, hey, what's up?

What's up? What's up?

If I could give Jamal Wilkes a magic ticket to get you entry to any place to go and watch a basketball game, who would Jamal Wilkes go and watch today?

I would watch the Golden State Warriors.

Being a former warrior, I cut my teeth with them and they're playing such... Great, great basketball right now.

Yeah.

And they're playing it the right way.

You know, they're getting, and by that I mean, you know, they're getting everyone involved and they're all sacrificing for the good of the team.

Yes. Yeah, I would go watch them.

And do you see any similarities between Golden State and And Showtime, because when you said they're all sacrifices for the good of the team, they have a lot of superstars on that team. And then with the addition of Durant, they got one more superstar. So what's it like? Just give us a sense. What's the mindset of when you're a superstar, that guy's a superstar, that guy's a superstar, what has to be the team psychology in order for you to win? Because I'm a Sixers fan. I remember we had a team full of superstars when I was a kid, and it was a disaster.

Yeah, right. Oh, right, right.

Just because you have a team of superstars, and I won't hold that against you, Chuck, for being a Sixers fan.

Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Well said, Jamal. Well said, sir.

Yeah, well, you know, Julius is a dear friend. But first of all, it's very humbling. You know, you walk out and you have six, seven, eight superstars. Well, first of all, you bring your A game to practice in the games every day because someone's waiting to take your spot.

There you go.

It's very humbling. It's very humbling.

And then, you know, the competitive factor comes out and the challenge factor comes out. And, you know, you want to do your best to be your best, but you know you got to do your best to get minutes on the floor, too. So it just brings about a collective.

Humility. And then you let all the horses go. Nice.

All right, Jamal, thank you so much for your time. So it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your time at the Lakers and, of course, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So thank you once again. We are going to take a commercial break, but it won't stop there with the Lakers loving. We have another one of Kareem's former teammates, this time Michael Koo. But we'll be with us on Play With Science. Do not go away. Yeah, there you heard it.

Back in a minute.

Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this is Playing With Science. And today we're in the middle of our Game Changers series. This particular show about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and his legendary skyhook shot. And joining us by video is Michael Cooper, the legendary Michael Cooper, the Secretary of Defense.

Yes.

The man who is now head coach of the Atlanta Dream of the WNBA team. Michael, what a pleasure to have you on board, sir.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, and Gary, I was going to tell you.

Preach on. Oh, sit still.

There's a lot more going to come, sir.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, we've got nothing but praise for you, my friend, because, of course, you know, Kareem being who he was, and this show is about, you know, basically the skyhook and the science behind it, and, of course, Kareem himself. And you played with him and being on the court with him, a soldier at arms with him. But you yourself have quite a few highlights on on the Internet that still live about Michael Cooper.

And the one thing I remember about you specifically is that when you came on the court.

The fans would all go, Coop! Coop!

And then the announcers would say, and the fans showing their appreciation for Michael Cooper, not booing, by the way, they're saying Coop.

Do you know what?

Watching it in the 80s in the UK, the socks.

The what? The socks.

Oh, the socks. The high top socks. I always remember those. Such a standout thing. But we got a clip, right? Yeah, we got a clip.

Just for those of you who may have forgotten, here's a little taste of the magic, not Johnson, the magic of Michael Cooper.

Not going to guard the inbound passer.

Now here they send a man out on him.

Now they change the man and put Stockton on him.

And a short man so Coop can get it in over him.

The Lakers are out of timeouts.

No timeouts left.

The ball behind you.

Dribble drive.

Down the middle.

Out to Coop.

18-footer.

Goal!

But there's still seven seconds.

And the Lakers have no timeouts left. But listen to this crowd on Cooper's Heroics.

And there you have it. Just a little taste of what Mr. Michael Cooper used to do all the time. Yeah, all the time.

How does that feel when you look at that?

You know what, Chuck and Gary, that was my only shot I hit in that series, and it was a big shot. You know what, that goes to show you that the Lakers' Showtime era wasn't built on one player.

It was built on eight players, and for.

Magic to have the confidence, and the team knew I was having a shooting slump, but for Magic to have the confidence in me to kick the basketball out there is what Showtime was all about. And it was a big shot, and I was finally– Glad to hit a shot. And if that was the one that was going to win that series for us, I'm glad it was that shot.

When you got drafted by the Lakers, what was it like the first day you walk out on court with them?

The first astounding thing is when I got drafted by the Lakers, I came into training camp and training camp used to be at Loyola Marymount University.

Yeah.

And I walked into the gym and who would I see out there shooting sky hooks was Kareem. And I just my mouth was open. And I said, this is the guy I watched because growing up in Los Angeles, you saw him at UCLA for four years. And he's got a chance to see him with the Bucs and win a championship there.

So finally, here he is with the Lakers.

And I just remember I couldn't stop staring at him. And then slowly people started coming in. And then there was Jamal Wilkes. winning the championship with the Golden State Warriors. And then finally, the person that I admired a lot, because I'd watched them the last two years, was Norm Nixon. I was like, this little guy is that big? good, that big.

And, you know, it was a high-opening experience.

And I think any rookie going into a camp, no matter what team you go to, they have those stars on the team. And it is shocking. But you know what? You got to get over that. And Jerry West was the coach at the time.

He said, cool.

He almost kind of like slapped it back to reality and said, come on, man, you got to play.

So it was fun watching him.

You know what I think is funny is that you called Norm.

Nixon a little guy.

I did a TV show with Norm a little while ago, and standing next to him, he looked like he was taking his toddler out to get some ice cream.

You must be very small, Tim. Norm's a little guy. And again, I'm surprised to think so.

But it was.

It was a funny thing to see.

OK, so you'd have turned up day one, right, early because you want to impress the organization, correct?

Yeah.

Kareem was already firing skyhooks.

Out there early.

And that goes back to his conditioning from, you know, back with John Wooden when he was at UCLA. They'd get out there. The bigs would get out and shoot their hooks and get their work in. Then the guards would come out, and then finally the whole team would come out for practice. So he just followed suit, and that's what he knew. So he came out there.

He was the first one I saw.

When I walked into the gym, he was the first person I saw shooting sky hooks.

But, you guys, you know what?

I want to touch on something Gary had mentioned a little earlier. You had talked about our socks.

Yes.

My socks.

I held my socks up high for, you know, when I was in high school. The reason why I wore long socks, I wore my strings out and I wore two sweat bands because in a high school game of the week in 1974, my grandmother was going to see us play. And she had glaucoma and she had to sit real close to the TV. And she used to say, hey, you have to do something to differentiate yourself so I'll know you from the other players.

So that's what happened with the long socks. Little did I know.

They were going to play big benefits because in the 80s, you know, we were in that Daisy Duke era where the shorts were really.

Really good.

So my socks kind of like evened my body out.

A little bit.

Thank you for giving me that backstory. That's really, really touching.

Very cool. Okay.

As I called you just before we came on, the Secretary of Defense.

That's right.

How did you cope with Kareem and... in practice with those skyhooks? Or did you just say, why am I buzzering?

Did you, as a defensive player of the year, did you ever have to, when you guys are practicing, defend Kareem?

And did that help your defensive game?

Chuck, no.

I'm glad I never had to defend him. I just ran down there on a double team. But no, that was Michael Thompson.

OK.

Jim Jones, those guys, they caught those skyhooks. But it was a thing to see.

But in practice, again, playing on the purple team because the gold team was the starters.

Right.

It was fun.

And it was always a way of how we're going to stop this. How can we stop this shot? And it was an unstoppable shot.

Right.

Green just kind of went through the motions because he knew nobody could stop his shot in the game of basketball at that time.

And especially nobody on our team.

So he would just kind of go through the motions and shoot jumpers, shoot left hand hooks until it was winning time. Because Pat Riley said, OK, next point wins the game. Losers got to run 10. Well, we knew we were going to end up running because nobody could stop us.

That's funny.

I mean, there's clips where Kareem is speaking to Neil deGrasse Tyson about his understanding of the science that went into his skyhook. Did you ever get a feeling with him in the locker room that this guy had everything calmly in the right place at the right time? Was he as organized as that back then in the 80s?

Yes, he was always organized. Kareem was a quiet individual.

He came into the locker room and you know how some teams will have the locker room banner and there'll be somebody funny telling jokes.

And people will be doing different things.

Kareem always sat and he sat next to Jamal Wilkes, both of them being from UCLA, and Kareem was always reading a book. Some type of book, usually an autobiography of African-Americans. Some kind of book he was always reading. But every now and then, people don't notice about him. He probably was one of my funniest teammates. He liked to play practical jokes every now and then. Didn't like them played on him, but he'd play.

Them on me.

Yeah, isn't that the way?

Yeah.

Everything was always together with him.

And once we got closer to the game, he would put the book down and he would just kind of like stare. And one day I asked him, I said, Cat, what do you think about it? He says, Coop, I'm visualizing the game in my head, what I have to do. And it was always like the first five to seven minutes. So that was his way of getting focused and getting into the game. But you could tell from then that everything he did, he had planned out in his mind, whether it went right or wrong, but at least it was planned out.

And he always came out and perfected his plan.

Michael, before we let you go and we thank you for your time, I have a simple question. Just how good was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

People ask me that all the time, and there are a lot of great players that have played in the NBA. And you've got to go back to Will Chamberlain, Bill Russell. And people ask me, Coop, if you were starting an NBA team and you had all the players that's ever played this game, who would you pick? Kareem would always be my pick. And the reason for that is he had an unstoppable shot. At his prime, y'all remember, Kareem led this league in rebounding. He led the league in blocked shots one year. And the most important thing is you had a big guy like Kareem that could pop out on the perimeter, but you couldn't foul him. Kareem shot like in the mid-80s for free throw shooting. And, you know, the way things are going now, they have

the hack-a-shack, which started in 2000. Now they put these centers on the line and, you know, basketball is not fun when it's played that way. But I'm going to go with Kareem. But there are many, many great ones. And I might be dumb, but I'm going to start with the big guy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Wow.

Would you pick yourself in your own franchise?

I think so.

Good man. That's the answer I was looking for.

That's the way it's supposed to go. Hey, Michael, thanks so much for joining us, man. We hope you'll come back and say hello. And thanks so much for taking the time and spending with us right now.

For sure, Chuck.

And Gary, thank you so much for having me.

It's a pleasure, sir. An absolute pleasure. Thank you. Wow, that's our show, man.

That is it.

I hope you've enjoyed it. It's the first of our Game Changers series, and I think we couldn't have picked a better start than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So stick around. We'll have plenty more, I'm sure.

Yeah, and special thanks, of course, to Jamal Wilkes and Michael Cooper for being a guest on the show.

And thank you to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar online. for being such a standout basketball player. And of course, the great man himself, Neil deGrasse Tyson, for spending that much time and getting such great thoughts out of him. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

And I'm Chuck Nice.

And this has been Playing With Science. Hope you enjoyed it. And we look forward to your company very, very soon.

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