S9 E1: Simon Harrison

0:00 Stories from Super Touring. Hello and a warm welcome back to Stories From Super Touring for Series 9. I'm Alex Clark and it's been a while since we've been together, but we're back for another fantastic line up of guests coming your way over the next few weeks. And joining me to open the new series is a man who raced in the British Touring Car Championship for Peugeot in 1995 before returning to the championship in 2000 and 2001.

0:45 So it's a real pleasure to welcome Simon Harrison to Stories from Super Touring. Simon, it's great to have you on the show. Absolutely Ace, Alex, it's great to be here and keen to chat. I'd like to think we can call it some interesting stories where people wouldn't really quite believe the types of things that you get up to trying to go racing. It's it's quite an adventure trying to make a career in Motorsports.

1:07 So yeah, keen to tell you a few stories. Brilliant. Now we you were with us on the the live stage at Brands Hatcher only a couple of weeks ago. Did it come as a surprise to you just how fondly people still remember this era of racing? I was mind blown. I didn't really have any idea what the event was going to be like. I suppose I was quite worried that it was going to be quite small.

1:32 I, you know, again, I didn't know when I got them. There's like it's packed and there's all these car clubs and people have got, you know, recreations of touring cars from that era. And then walking further in, you see actual touring cars from that era and how many there were and the action out on the track. It was staggering.

1:48 And yeah, like when we did the bid on stage and you asked for questions of, oh God, no one's going to have any questions, but there were loads. So I was completely taken aback. And I think it's quite interesting and and really exciting that people have got a fondness for that era because it was real racing with gear sticks and clutches and all that stuff.

2:08 So, yeah, I think that's great. So we're obviously here to talk about your time in Tin Tops in particular, but your early career was very much more single seater base, wasn't it? Was was that the aim? Were you aiming for something single seater based in your career or was touring cars something you looked at? I think virtually everyone starts out trying to be Formula One world champion and I think that's exactly what I set out to try and achieve with absolutely no flipping idea how you went about it.

2:36 None of my family were involved in Motorsports at all. So yeah, you head into these things with great dreams, don't you? Yeah, It, it was a a wild adventure. And. And certainly I sort of got very interested in touring cars as the strength of that grew. But so single seater is what I wanted to do. But the day I first ever sat in a saloon car was quite a revelation.

2:57 And I just fell in love with that type of racing straight away. So you did the the Formula Ford and the Formula Vauxhall and you actually were part of a team which will be very familiar to listeners of stories from Super Touring. You actually raced for David Leslie Racing. Now this was a combination I believe of it with the team was run by David Leslie Senior, who was David Leslie's dad, but I believe David Junior was involved quite heavily as well. Oh yeah, it was the pair of them, always, always. It was quite a revelation.

3:30 I think I've been involved with a number of teams up to that point trying to go Formula Ford racing and the day I sort of stepped in one of their cars and was surrounded by the atmosphere of David Leslie Racing, it was quite a revelation because instantly you thought this is how it's done, this is proper.

3:47 They are serious because I think they sort of set up two years earlier to run Alan Mcnish in Formula Ford and he destroyed everybody and won the championship. The following year, David Coulthard stepped into the car and destroyed everyone and won the championship. And then in their third year, they had a driver who kind of, I don't honestly remember quite what happened, but I think he even ran out of money or had an accident, but was out for the last four races. So I got the opportunity to do the last four races. And yeah, as I say it was it was suddenly a very different atmosphere.

4:17 It was A1 car team. Everything was perfectly aligned to running that car. They had this really lovely little truck, nothing special, but it was just exactly what you'd want. So yeah, beautiful little truck. Room for one car. That's all they wanted to focus on, which was great for me. Little sleeping compartment with a cooker, fridge. So Father David used to sleep on the bottom bunk. Top bunk would be David Leslie.

4:43 Then there's two further beds over the cab. One for me got about two foot of clearance and then one next to me which got about 1 foot of clearance, which was occupied by a little chap called Dario who was 17 years old and doing work experience cleaning the car in his holidays and weekends. And yeah, that was Dario Franchitti who went on to great things and I think won Indy 500 three times.

5:06 So it was quite a nuts period. But yeah, the whole David Leslie thing was fantastic because they were so focused on winning, so passionate. Every penny went into the car every morning. Father David would pack up all the beds and would cook bacon sandwiches for everybody. And then at lunchtime they got, they would produce a microwave and this massive bin liner, black bin liner full of microwave meals, which they got from a factory in Carlisle where it was based and nothing had any labelling on it.

5:36 So every lunchtime was potluck as to on earth came out of this microwave packet. But you know, that's great. But everyone else is spending money on all sorts of things. They're spending it on the car and that's what counted. And I think to have that level of passion, that level of experience, that level of focus was an absolute revelation.

5:54 And you really saw how to go boat racing. That's led to you wanting to try and get into F3 then, I gather, but from what I understand funding issues mean it never really never really got there. I never even attempted it because it was bad trying to do things like Formula Forward where you're trying to get together, let's say 20,000 or 30,000, and Formula 3 was 300,000.

6:19 That's what it is now. But I just didn't know where to start because I wasn't from that background, so I didn't really know what to do. And I sort of noticed this scholarship to race Honda Civic in the national ceiling car championship and it'd been very successful the year before. And James Thompson and I have a great super tearing legend when won that. So I wanted to enter this scholarship. As luck would have it, David Leslie was one of the judges. They James Thompson, I knew because he worked at rally school with me.

6:55 God knows what I knew about rallying, but we bluffed it and he sort of gave me some top tips about what the judges would like to hear. And, you know, did a few laps around the car in Brands Hatch with an instructor, sat next to me and just instantly fell in love with sodium car racing. And it just, it felt right. It felt natural.

7:13 I felt like, God, this is good, this is going to be fun. I really want to win this. I really think I can do this. Interesting because we've had so many drivers who have come from single seated backgrounds who then have jumped in a saloon car or a tin top and said they found the transition from a single seater to a front wheel drive, race, touring car or tin top as a real struggle. But it sounds like you fitted into it very quickly and very easily then.

7:42 Yeah, it did feel natural. I remember quite a few people gave me some top tips that all made a lot of sense. I think in single seaters you're currently trying to get on the power really early and try and almost get the back moving very, very slightly so it's not under steering. Whereas saloon cars you have to kind of do the opposite.

7:59 You have to be patient, you have to let the front grip and the second you're getting on the throttle because the front wheels are obviously doing everything, all the steering, all the accelerating, all the braking. If you get onto the throttle too soon, you overload their capacity and you start to understand.

8:12 As soon as you understand you start to run out of Rd, you can't accelerate. So you have to be very patient with the throttle. Also, I'm a kind of a big believer that there's you're either very sensitive with your hands or very sensitive with your arse. And if you're really good with your bum, you can kind of feel a rear wheel drive car very well. And if you've kind of got very sensitive hands, I think you can feel a front wheel drive car very well. And I think kind of I've got sensitive hands and I think that's sort of help.

8:38 So yeah, I think I, I, I took to it very quickly and just loved it and instantly had this passion and excitement. And soon as I drove it, you think, right, I've got to get this scholarship, I've got to win this championship, I've got to get into touring cars. And so instantly I had a path which was great, which I felt I can do this.

8:57 Yeah. Am I right in believing that you were living with Jason Plata at this point? It probably was this point, yes, Yeah, that's a whole different adventure. I can imagine, no, because I know I've, I've heard Jason say that when he was living with you and he saw your pathway into Super Touring that that's when he realised, well, that's a, that's an avenue I could pursue.

9:21 Yeah, now we had quite a good time. We had, it was quite adventurous. We had, yeah, we had a cleaner who we had to because the flakes was disgusting who ended up on stars as you ride as a toy out and it was just weird. It just happened. But yeah, interestingly enough, I think the team that were running that that Honda Civic team Castrol Honda was a team at Silverstone called Mardi Gras. And I think one day they rung me up and they ended up with some weird deal to test drive or do some work on a GT car, an SX or Honda, and I couldn't do it.

9:54 I can't remember why because I don't leap at anything like that. So said Jason, why don't you see if they'll let you do it? So they did and introduced him to Mardi Gras the following year. He went on to race for them in Spiders. Renault Spiders destroyed everybody and won the championship. And that got him into Super Touring. So it's funny how these things work, isn't it? It's always like crazy opportunities and people, you know how things work out.

10:20 Absolutely. The talk talking about that National Saloon Car Cup, because that was a great championship wasn't it? It was full of great drivers, good looking cars and I I really enjoyed watching that year of the of the National Saloon Car Cup. It was quite interesting because it it had different classes.

10:36 So there's that 1.6 Civic which I'm in and then you've got lots of Escort Cosworths. Then in the sort of B class there were things like BMWM3 SC class was like 2 litre Astros, that type of thing. So it was quite crazy because it you could ever so easily, let's say in a wet race suddenly find yourself battling with, with an M3 and all sorts of different things. So yeah, it was, it was a good championship and I think it was interesting with the different classes and yeah, lots of drivers did emerge through that.

11:06 So it was a good year. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Yeah, and at what point did your performance in the National Saloon Car Cup start to get noticed then by teams in the British Touring Car Championship? I don't, I think it's sadly, I'm not entirely sure that many teams are ever looking because they're, they're waiting for drivers to come knocking and generally they'll ask them how much money they've got when they do sort of knock.

11:35 So you as a driver, you have to do all the work. So I knew that I had to do well in that championship. I kind of set myself quite an ambitious task at the start of the year. I decided I want to qualify a pole for every race, lead every lap of every race and have fastest lap of every race. You've got to have a target, haven't you? So Race 1 I did achieve that, so I was very happy. Race 2, my bloody team mate passed me on about lap 3, so I had to pass him back.

12:04 Otherwise, my whole year plan was a race, and it was the world's most ambitious overtaking relief. And I ended up hitting him on a quite slow corner right in the side and ended up rolling him. So maybe that did get noticed by the tears. Yeah, that made it a quite tricky year politically, and we didn't really speak an awful lot, but it was a good, fun year.

12:25 But I suppose during the course of the year, going back to your original question, you know, you have to make yourself noticed. You really have to push yourself. So I was quite good friends with Richard Burns, the rally driver. Can't actually remember how I ended up meeting him. I think it was just reworking at like a race school or something.

12:44 He used to go to a lady called Liz Linford who was a fitness trainer and she was married to Mick Linford, Team School of Peugeot in the touring cars. So you know, Liz was great, really helped me. It was fantastic because of visiting her, she was quite motivational. She looked after quite a few different drivers and we used to go for like weekends away. So used to go away with Patrick and Richard Burns and it was quite rally based to be honest.

13:11 And we did training weekends and Mick used to come as well. So I suppose I started to ingratiate myself a bit to the Peugeot family through that. But I knew still it was going to be quite a job to get in the team and to you know, try and get one of the two drives. At that time they had Patrick Watts. The other driver was Eugene O'Brien who was struggling a little bit.

13:29 So obviously that's I need to target Eugene, but you know, you've got to try and build a lot of confidence for someone to give give you an opportunity towards the end of the year. National students have gone well. I'd won the championship quite boldly. I said to Mick, can I pay to do the Tyranco World Cup?

13:46 Which was or was it the shootout? I can't. Can you remember what it was called? They used to run it at Donnington. There were two that year and they were both at Donington on the same day as the World Cup and the Shootout. Well I think it was the shoot out so I said, so we ended up agreeing a price for me to come and do this. I had no comprehension how I was going to get the money, but you'd try and do the deal and then solve the problem afterwards.

14:12 And after a couple of weeks he came back to me and he said I've changed my mind. I want to put another driver in, a driver called Dave Coyne. I can't quite remember what the deal was, but he was a very successful single seater driver. And Mick said, but I'll tell you what, I'll give you a free test at Silverstone. So it was a bit sad not to do the race, but I haven't got any money so I don't know how I was going to do it anyway. And now I've got a free 10.

14:34 That was a new result and I think it was just doing it to keep me quiet in all honesty. He gave me 10 laps on the Silverstone National Circuit. At that point the pits were being rebuilt, so the team were all set up on the apron for Brooklyn's like a tight left towards the end of the lap. And I think on about lap two or three, I'm starting to build up speed, getting faster and faster.

14:56 And I had the biggest moment of my life at Brooklyn's where it's completely gone sideways. You want so much lock. You think if this does ever come back, I'm not going to know where straight on it and easily spear off left or spear on right because you've still got loads of lock on. And by an absolute miracle I saved it and carried on.

15:16 And it was like, I remember coming in after that and Mick said that was amazing. That was a quite a save and I think if it hadn't been for that, I wouldn't advance to the next level. I'd have just been gone because it would have been like here you go Simon with Major Happy, you know, carry on, you'll get in the drive.

15:33 But I think that one moment that was, to be honest, quite luck more than anything to have saved. It was kind of the moment where you thought, hang on a minute, this is quite interesting. And he was a rally chap at heart. So I think anything sideways Linford used to laugh. So that was great. So the next stage after that was A4 driver shootout over 2 days, which got half a day, which was something like sort of 20 laps with the last sort of run being on new tyres.

16:01 I was first to go, which was a bit of a tricky old going on. I think the other three drivers there was a chap called Gary Brabham, one of the Graham dynasty chap called Peter Hartman, who'd done quite a lot in salons in America but was a Brit driver. And I can't remember the name of the French guy, but I'm sure it was Stefano Telly who went on to eventually race Audi and won Le Mans because the Telly's had a series of Peugeot dealerships in France.

16:25 I'm just imagine he was planted in by Peugeot France wanting that possibility. So yeah, it was, it was a great day. I remember finally getting the new car, new tyre run, which was quite a thing and you could really feel the difference between new tyres. And then Patrick Watts went out afterwards and amazingly he didn't go as quick. So it was like, Oh my God, I can't believe I've done this. And then I just spent the next two days parked up in my mum's Fiesta on one of the corners, literally timing every single lap.

16:57 Literally no one went quicker over the next day and a half. And then I had to wait probably about 3 or 4 weeks to find out what the decision was. And then when I decide, when I found out the decision, Mick rung me up on the world's biggest mobile phone, which he had, and I was on a 4 by 4 course working for Fords on the launch of the Ford Maverick.

17:18 I had to take the call because I knew who it was, had to make everybody in the car just stop by parked on the hill and then very excitedly received the news and then carried to carry on with the 4x4 lessons. It was all a bit bonker. Enjoying stories from Super Touring? Why not join our Paddock Club on Patreon?

17:40 For just £3 a month you'll gain exclusive bonus podcasts, Super Touring, watchalongs, archive race footage, exclusive articles and also access to our members chat room. Every penny also goes straight back into supporting the podcast, keeping the show free for everyone. Head to patreon.com/super Touring Pod and join the Paddock Club. Today Peugeot, as you said, rally team at heart. Mick was a rally man at Hearts.

18:14 The the team developed from the the Peugeot rally team when they joined in 92. They were based in the in the actual workshop at Coventry, weren't they? I mean, there's nothing works than than that. No, it was really interesting. You know, literally was you're driving through the factory gates at Coventry Million and one sprawling buildings everywhere, Million and one Peugeots in different, you know, parts of construction all over the place. It was crazy.

18:44 And then the come to this one little outcover in the middle of it all. And that was the race team. And yeah, it was quite a thing to see. You know, every sort of lunchtime a big buzzer went, the whole factory shut down, including the race team, and they all went off to lunch. So yeah, it was an interesting sort of way of working. But yeah, it was at the very heart of the factory, which was great.

19:04 What sort of timings are we talking about here? How close to the season were you made aware then that you had the drive and as a result of that how much of A testing pre season schedule did you have to acclimatise yourself to the car? I really don't think it was until sort of February, March time that I got the drive and we didn't honestly do a lot of testing. I can't quite remember.

19:28 I just remember there not being very much at all. I'm talking 2-3 days maybe of that, if that, you know, when I sat on the start line for the very first race, which is Donington Park. I've never done a start, had to go around and ask. I think I ended up asking Tim Suckton. Do you remember Tim Suckton?

19:45 He drove that. He was trying to tell me how to do a start. I must have asked Patrick as well, but I probably thought I'll get another opinion in case Patrick told me before. Yes, yeah, yeah. But it was just surprising how difficult it was to get the thing moving because you either ended up with stalling it or massive wheel spin, so you kind of had to really.

20:08 Slipped the clutch more than it was more about the clutch than it was about the throttle about controlling that. It was quite an art form. So I remember the first two races I really didn't get off the start well. And then they very kindly said let's go to Silverstone and going up and down, hanging straight and try and get the hang of it. But yeah, it was never easy getting those things moving. Really tricky.

20:30 And that was the year, of course, where they all sprouted the, the rear wings and the front downforce and the, the dams on the front. That's makes it an even bigger jump than before from your your, your class D Honda to that aerodynamic beast that was the Peugeot Super Tora. A big jump for you, obviously in in all sorts of areas I'm sure.

20:55 To be honest it was monumental. Like he'd he couldn't really get your head around how big it was. It's not like let's say a football player go from the Championship to the Premiership. It's like all are going from the 4th division to the 4th in terms of the difference it makes. You know, when you're wandering around Castle Coomb in your Honda Civic overalls, no one bats an eyelid, No one talk talks you nothing.

21:19 Suddenly you're at BTCC and it's a whole different kettle of fish. You know, you, you, you suddenly looking at the arts end of Cleland's car and you go, Oh my God. And you know will Hoy menu Ranesic like you're surrounded by all these names and you think, gosh, should I be here? Is this right? And so, yeah, it is a major jump.

21:38 And then you have autograph sessions and everyone's going crazy. It's it's quite AI think. In hindsight, I think I wish I had more of a support network to kind of help me get adjusted to all that. And I suppose sort of one of the mistakes I perhaps made is not appreciating just how big this jump was going to be.

21:56 But yeah, it was quite a lot to get used to for sure. I mean, we, we've had Mick Linford on the show himself and he told us at length that the struggles the Peugeot team had during the era funding wise in comparison to the other teams of the era. And you, you, you mentioned menu and Hoi and, and all that. You've got Williams touring car engineering, you know, sprouted from the Grand Prix team, You've got Pro Drive, you've got RML. There's some big, big hitters in, in that championship. And was it always a bit of a struggle that Peugeot didn't quite have the support from the manufacturer that that the other team seemed to get?

22:42 I guess so. I suppose I didn't get too involved in that side of things. You know, we always kind of had tyres when we needed it. I think we have most things but we need like I know there's a lot of talk during the season about teams having almost an electronic diff where it would lock, so using a button on the steering wheel so you could get better traction coming out slow corners.

23:01 So I think we're sometimes a little bit behind the game. Very decent budget, but I think that was probably, I wish they probably had a bit more. Some have been a championship really where you can develop the car. So that was quite unique to be part of the development process. It was also the first time I'd be in the championship where the cars aren't really pretty much the same.

23:20 So you have to sort of be realistic, which I found quite difficult, right? These cars were only ever going to come 14 today. Maybe if we can come 12th, it's a great result. So yeah, it was quite a difficult thing to adjust to being realistic, but you know, there's no doubt it was a high pressure environment.

23:41 There's no doubt there was a lot to get used to. It was very daunting. But like we did have some great times and it was really good fun. I always remember it was the year that a safety car ever got ever came in for the very first time and all the drivers had to do a pretend Rd cars to help get the Marshalls used to have a safety car procedure as well. And every time it turned into the full out, full out race in our Rd cars.

24:05 It was just, you know, it was so much fun. But I think that was one of the highlights of me. And Mick used to sort of say he didn't go fast. Did you have it? No, Mick, just nice and steady. But if you hit the kerbs in the rocart, but the centres popped out of the wheels, like the bit with the Peugeot logo, they kept popping up. So I always remember you promised me you didn't go fast this time, did you?

24:22 Because it was a bit of a pattern. I was still getting carried away. So no, it's fine. And then Marshall appears and he goes, here's the centres come out the wheels. So it means it was great fun. So I suppose it was quite an extreme year of of being huge pressure but huge fun all at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

24:41 And talking of huge fun, your teammate is quite a unique character, wasn't he? And he is still to this day, Patrick. What was Patrick like to to work with and to be alongside in that team? Without a doubt the best team mate I've ever been with just because we'd be completely open and honest. He'd help as much as he could, we'd work together.

25:04 You know, we even started swapping cars in testing to say we could sort of experience which we've each gone down. So it, it was ideal and he was very good. You know, I think his, his skill at racing was superb. Just I think, you know, he had such confidence and he could drive around problems, which I think was very important.

25:25 I'm less able to drive around problems if I've got a really good car. I feel really happy and I can go quick. If I've got a problem and it's not quite right, I get a little bit flustered and lose my confidence. So he was exceptional at that. But I think as the season went on and we got a bit better and better with the car and and came out some really good ideas.

25:44 We had a great idea for the rear suspension where it almost had a slight 4 wheel steer aspect to it depending on the the how much pressure or strain or G force there was on the rear axle. So it would actually help steer. And that kind of was a bit of a revelation. And then we had much better turn into the corners and much better front end grip throughout the whole turn because the back is slightly turning.

26:09 And beyond that point I think I was much happier with the car and me and Patrick were much more even and the so I think at that point I thought I felt much happier. So we should have had really more opportunities to carry on with that. But yeah, Patrick was exceptional. He was just very good, very open, always funny, always helpful, always kind, never.

26:29 He wasn't really a competitive. He was competitive on the travel. He was never competitive with me. He just wanted us both to do well, which was I think pretty unheard of. It was good. I was going to say, yeah, that's quite a rarity. But having met Patrick and had him on the show and I've had various dealings with him over the years, now he's I can very much imagine that he's a he's a good guy. Yeah, really good.

26:49 So we had a lot of fun with him, yeah. As you know, in the midfield of that championship, the the the racing was extremely physical at times. Just how physical was it? Was it really, really tough to race in the in the midfield of that championship with everyone scrapping for for points? Yeah, it's quite cut throat and it's very easy to tap people. It's very easy to push people wide. You know, you never wanted to try go around the outside of someone because you just knew that they're just running straight onto the grass.

27:20 So it was quite physical and those cars were fast. I remember going to Thruxton for the first time, which is the quickest circuit in the UK by quite a chunk. And the speed at which you were going, it didn't feel, it didn't feel natural. It's like this is too quick. So yeah, they were quick. And, you know, even at most speeds, you're still, you know, tap, tap on people's bumpers.

27:44 So yeah, it was quite physical. I think people are quite respectful, but they but they so I don't think there was much, let's say dirty driving. It was all pretty clean, but no one gave an inch. And I think Derek Warwick in the Alpha, I was permanently qualified to date Derek Warwick. And that was pain in the bum because Eva, I was hitting him or him was hitting me half the time just from no fault of Rd.

28:10 It's just a busy track. But yeah, I do. I was having quite a few exchanges, but yeah, but I think that's the beat of two in car racing, isn't it? It's like it is close, it is physical, but you're not. No one's firing each other off. Generally if that happens to mistake, people are just trying to be annoying to the person in front and just keep reminding them that they're there.

28:33 Or be slightly sneaky at some of the trawlers and just gentle tout, see if we can panic you and push you wide. But everybody's generally being quite fair. So physical, great fun, but no one really being too naughty. You were saying about Derek Warwick and you, you 2 did cross swords a few times that that year.

28:53 But I mean was that pretty? I mean Derek was a sports car world champion XF 1 driver. I mean, that must have been quite or that must have been awesome just to to say that you know, you're racing most of the year with Derek Warwick. It's awesome to be with them all. Well, I can remember the very first race lining up alongside like David Brabham in the BMW. It's like, Oh my God.

29:15 Like this is all a bit mental. And yeah, like Frox and I was talking about, I remember being stuck up behind Clelands and you think this is crazy. So, you know, it is a lot to get used to. And I think drivers that go in and instantly do well, fair play to them because the level of confidence they must have and, and everything is just exceptional. Yeah, exceptional.

29:36 Yeah. And obviously towards the end of 95, you were getting more on the pace of Patrick. You've explained that, you know, there were there were developments on the car that you felt more comfortable with. At what point did you find out that you weren't being retained by the team for 96? Probably about a month after I'd say. So I'm going to get sort of late November time because I didn't feel confident.

30:00 I didn't really know what was happening. I remember going to Macau, which we'll come on too later, but anyone doesn't know Macau, it's just the most bonkers race circuit in the world, 4.2 miles of St circuit. And I went out there to watch the Super Tours out there and just to see if I could make friends.

30:18 And I was had a bit of a contact who ran Opals in Japan, and I thought that could be a bit of a plan if the Peugeot thing didn't came off. I think I found out pretty much soon as I came back from Macau. Mick said, do you want to come for a meeting? And I thought, this isn't good. I remember going into the office.

30:34 He said, right, I'm going to cut straight to the chase. Don't know who I'm replacing you with, but I'm going to replace you. And then he said, do you want to go out for a meal? And he goes, I'm sure you don't, But I thought, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you don't think we're going to be out for a meal, but we are.

30:49 We're going to go out and you're going to have to talk to me for an hour and a half. So we went out to tgi Friday's on the Coventry bypass for my final meal and it was quite nice and we had a quite a good old chat because, you know, I quite understood I didn't get on as good as I should have done.

31:07 I only gave Patrick a run for his money on a few occasions. I think year 2 would have hopefully been a lot better. But honestly, there was people like Tim Harvey who replaced me with nothing to do. So yeah, who wouldn't take that option because Tim was fantastic and him and Patrick, I bet, got on like a house on fire and he's hugely experienced.

31:28 So, you know, I, I can completely understand the decision. It was just didn't quite do what I needed to do that year and there's too much competition. But, you know, I'm very proud to have been part of that. Incredible 8 manufacturer. Wild year where it was on BBC grandstand with Murray Walker commentating.

31:48 Yeah, I do remember it very fondly. You bring that up, but it's actually quite interesting. How did you is it, Was it bizarre to be such a household name, to have people you know, come in for autographs and as you say on BBC grandstand with Murray Walker commentate thing? I mean, it must have been pretty surreal.

32:06 It was surreal, You know, I don't know if you're end of the household name because nothing ever happens away from the track. But as soon as you walk in for the track, it's like this bubble and you're now in this different world where, yeah, people do want to chat to you and do want your autograph. So it was it was a very surreal time. And yeah, you completely understand how F1 drivers have to remain very grounded and not get sucked after this bubble. Like, you know, I think people like Kimmy Antoni must have such a great network around them and they must be briefed. Like, you know, this is what you've got to do. You've got to stay calm.

32:37 You've got to have your time away. You've got to keep your feet on the ground. You've got to understand how lucky you are. I think you can certainly get a glimpse as to both lives and how they must be very closely managed and how if they're not like, you know, you can go out with all the pop stars that that have suddenly so much attention to go off the rails.

32:55 I think it's, yeah, it must be very interesting for some of the top drivers to keep their feet 100% on the ground. How do you think, I mean, we're we're looking at looking at things that didn't happen now, I guess. But how do you think a second year with Peugeot would have gone? Do you think you would have improved? You'd have got, you know, on par with Patrick? I mean, the four O 6 was a poor car that that second, that 96 car.

33:19 So yeah. How do you feel it would have gone? It's, it's very difficult to know because I think you'd like to say yes, I think I could have been on the same it. I think it all to be honest, it's down to the car. Like if, if I'm in a car that I feel really comfortable with and feel confident, I'm on it.

33:38 If I, as I said to you earlier, if I don't feel confident in the car and yeah, that car was probably not as good the following year. So could I have kept up with Patrick, bearing in mind how good he was at driving cars that weren't that great, he could pull the result, you know, out of nowhere, which was fantastic. So I don't know.

33:57 I honestly don't know. You'd like to think I could have been closer. I think I did quite, I think me and Patrick worked really well on the development of the car in our year and it would have been interesting to continue that. So I think that would have been the interesting thing because me and Patrick were a really good relationship and swapping cars and that aspects. I think, you know, between us, we've brought in things like debriefs immediately after the race back in the factory. I think we helped, we helped perhaps pick up the pace or ensure there was good pace to the development. So I just don't know the answer to that question, but I think it would have been fun to have found out. Absolutely.

34:35 And you, you start 96th with Honda doing some testing. How, how, how did that come about and how, how was that? Was that an interesting role developing the, the the Honda? It was good actually, and I really enjoyed that. So it came about because of my links with Honda for the National Saloon Car Cup and the same person that kind of oversaw motorsport when I was doing that, oversaw the touring car team. And I think, I think that was possibly the first year they'd set that test team up, but they'd got Super Touring teams in not this country, but also Germany and Belgium. So they decided to set up this central car for testing run by team at Brands Hatch.

35:14 And I actually got quite a few outings in that car. And it was a really good car. It was a year old car, but it was still on the money and I really enjoyed that. We did a lot of the Toker tests just before the touring car races. So you're still with everybody. And I remember 1 particular test at Snetterton, I got the chance to try out a new engine management system and it was mega. And I remember in the debrief afterwards everyone's saying Oh no, let's, we need to test it some more times. I remember pressurising them saying it's really good. I'm like the quickest on the back straight. You can't, you know, you've got to, you can't overlook that. And the next race was at Silverstone on the Grand Prix circuit support race for the

35:53 Formula One. And I remember that they did take on board what I said and they did gamble and put this new system on the car and David Leslie won the race. So I love that. Well, I've made a difference here and I've made a difference to David. And obviously history of our sculptor David through Formula Four Days. So, you know, I really did enjoy that role and that was great. But sadly at the end of this year, that year, they then disbanded that test team.

36:18 So that was a little bit of a shame, but I really enjoyed it. Got to make an impact, got to test the race cars as well a couple of times on Toca test when James K failed to turn up in time. So. So that was good. Are you, you, you're talking David Leslie there. I mean, obviously, as, as we all know, no no longer with us, sadly, after that tragic accident. What was he like?

36:41 There's so many people speak so fondly of him. I mean, he, he, he, he was a great guy, wasn't he? Absolutely as good as they get. Just so helpful, so encouraging. Wanted young drivers to do well, just brilliant. Yeah. Really, really good. Yeah. So you can't, you know, I can't. I would never say a bad word against it.

37:02 Just so, so helpful and kind. Not many people like that that have got the time when they're trying to, you know, obviously do their own racing crew, which is never easy to have time for other people. And even before I drove for him, I used to go to his house to Carlisle just for the evening for him to give advice and then drive all the way back to Hull where I was living at the time. So yeah, that was quite a trip.

37:26 But you know, it was so valuable just to go and sit for an hour or so because he just talked so much sense and was. So it's the same with, you know, when he's running the team, he just fills you with his passion and love for the sport and that makes you go faster. You you raced at at Spa, then in a Honda, your first in your first sort of endurance race that, that must have been quite fun.

37:52 That was mega. I think at that point I hadn't done anything all year and sort of been saving up and thought let's see what I can do. I think I had 5000 lbs and despite the fact me and James K never got on, he had only had an entry and a car. So. So, you know, very kindly, 5 grand got me into that car and we did a 24 hour race. Yeah.

38:14 And that was run by Mardi Gras. So the same people that had run the Honda Civic and Mardi Gras are great. They they're quite confident in their decisions and they make bold decisions. And their decision was for this race run almost a standard car. And Honda's are just so strong. They keep going and going. And lots of our cars on the track were heavily modified dog gearboxes, all sorts of things.

38:39 I remember, you know, we didn't qualify very well because the car wasn't as quick, but few hours in, people had gearbox problems. We just kept on going and I think just kept on moving up the order. And I mean, there's someone from Honda, one of the big motorsport bosses from Honda Europe, came to see us and said it's amazing what you're doing, your tactics are wonderful.

38:57 And I think we ended up well inside, I can't quite remember where, but well inside the top 10. So it was a great result. 8th it was, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if James K's watching, he still owes me some prize money not go there. But the best thing about that race was lovely to be back with Mardi Gras, but they brought in extra help for that one and they brought in some help from a team called GR Motorsport, which is run by a chap called Paul Ridgway. And it was great to meet him.

39:26 And he reminded me very much of David Leslie again. His passion for motorsport, his enthusiasm to go racing, his will to win was exactly like David's. And he just thought, this is someone I'd love to drive with because I just know he wants to win as badly as I do and will go to the end of the world to do that.

39:46 So that was great. So I really enjoyed that race and I think that must have been, let's say sort of summertime, hadn't got any money to do anything else but that right at the end of the year a letter from Barclays dropped through the door and it's like you've been pre approved for a loan for £15,000 and it's like what idiot is going to lend me £15,000?

40:07 So I remember ringing up Paul Ridgeway from GR Motorsport and saying right, I've got a £15,000 budget, what do you think we could do? So we decided we were going to do the first three races of the championship and see it. Well, the fact tell her like the plan was, do the first race, see how we got on. If we got on really well, we'll carry on until the money runs out, which was obviously going to be pretty damn soon. If it doesn't go very well at all, we'll just pick and choose another two races throughout the rest of the year. To do the car he prepared was fantastic. I think there's a team about three or four of us, just the best team ever.

40:45 Again, just like David Leslie Racing, all very supportive, all very enthusiastic, some amazing characters in the, you know, as the mechanics and engineers, etcetera. We did the first race, put it on pole. I think going into the final corner I was second. They did a very cheeky move and unfortunately dispatched like competition into the barrier one but got disqualified which wasn't great. But Despite that the theory was again, if it doesn't go well, pick and choose.

41:19 We just carried on and grappled around for money and that was probably my most favourite year in motorsport because it was a prayer game from race to race. But you know, we'd always make it work because everybody just wanted to win. No one was trying to make any money. It was all about trying to win the championship right down to the final race, and we won the championship and yeah, it was amazing because I just knew how hard everybody in that team would work to make that happen, so it was really, really special. Yeah, to winning that the the National Saloon Car Cup again in 99 was that did you feel the vindication after, you know, a trying time in the BTCCA couple of years before? Yeah, it felt good.

42:01 It felt like we're on it, I can do this. And it was, it was again, it was, it was one of the best cars on the grid. It was great to drive. I felt confident. And in that situation I think I can, I can do the biz. So it was wonderful to be back in that car following year. We had to try and think what the hell to do because there's no more pre approved loans going to drop through the letterbox and that one had to be repaid.

42:24 But I think myself and Paul worked really hard to try and get forward interested and we got the opportunity to run some Focuses and one of our other teammates managed to get a business partner involved in helping back it a little bit. So it kind of came together and suddenly we're in Ford Focuses.

42:42 And that was a really interesting year. The car was good. It wasn't amazing, but it was really good and it was great to drive. So we got some decent results, but I think I won a race that year. But it was still a good year. And I I enjoy the whole development of the car. But yeah, not a winning year, but a great one.

43:01 And and still with one of the nicest teams in the entire universe, that was good. But there wasn't really to carry on after that. And that time sort of Peugeot had come back into it with a team called HTML, bit of a weird name. And that was quite well backed by a fairly sort of family. And I knew how quick that Peugeot was because we'd been up against it a lot with the Ford Focus. Also the Honda Integra of the year before that when I won the championship.

43:29 So it was good to be in a Peugeot, daunting, not daunting but slightly unsettling to be with a team I wasn't familiar with and were less less. They were quite new to the whole thing so but you know, they had a really quick car. So that was a good year in terms of results because we won a lot of races. So thoroughly enjoyed that and it was the best car on the grid. So again, you end up with the best car on the grid, you can win the championship.

43:56 Yeah. And of course that was in the Class B of the British Touring Car Championship back in the BTCC paddock, six years after being with Peugeot. Was it? Did it feel we had been back in the paddock at that point? It was great fun to be back in the panic. No, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was good. You know the the championship, we got some great cars in. I think the grid was sort of almost 2/3 Super Touring. Was it Super Touring at that point? Already got a new?

44:23 The the final year you did, you did a couple of races in the Ford with the Super Tours, but then those Astra coupe's with the, the Basset, the the BTC touring, they they had taken over the Super tours and you had the big, the big four O 6 coupe as well with Steve super in. That's it. So they're a bit. They were more cost effective to run, weren't they? Yeah, yeah.

44:47 Slightly less about the manufacturers and more about the teams. It's always a thrill to be in that sort of environment. It wasn't quite the euphoria of Super Touring days, which was completely unique and highly special, but it's still a huge championship, so it's still a very privileged place to be and I loved every second.

45:05 Yeah, there was a weird setup wasn't there for the. Was it the Sprint race where you guys in the Class B cars or the production cars as they called at that point? They went first, You guys went first but had an extra lap and then and then the the the Taurus came and tried to catch you up. That that must have been quite a weird sort of race to sort of try and stay in front. Yeah, it was a terrifying race as well because you just happened at some point there's going to be a Stampede of elephants behind you.

45:40 But yeah, I think the champion was very, very television based at that time. So, you know, it was a it was a a gimmick to add excitement to the TV audience. But I'm sure all those things kind of worked. It was also, it was quite a difficult year. I remember because in back in the, you know, you were talking about sort of the the driving and super tearing times and we were talking about it being aggressive, but fair.

46:06 I think in that year I always remember it getting a bit out of hand and you felt that if you were leading the championship you were fair game and if someone had you off you, you know, that was just unlucky and you no one was going to get penalised. But if you know, I say it keep kept the championship tight because for several years it came down to all championships being decided in the last race.

46:28 Well, that was kind of a little bit engineered I do think. And I remember at one point I had, I sent in all the sort of accident damage invoices and my bank statement. I remember it was days of faxes. So I had to feed them all into this fax to like the organisers as a way of saying please, like if someone crashes into me, I have to pay.

46:49 Like I know it's great telly, but I can't afford it. So it was quite frustrating through that. And if you were leading the championship, you had to try and stay out the way and you had to either stick it on pole and run for the hills or just try and be canny because, yeah, you were fair game from anyone else. They could have you off and nothing would happen to them. Yeah, yeah.

47:09 And I suppose the touring boys didn't really care either if they were pushing their way through to try and get it get you out of the way either. I'm sure there was a few bumps on the things like far you, wide and free they would come, but no, it was great. It's it's a wonderful championship. We interviewed you on the stage at Brands just before you went and drove that Peugeot out on track in the demo. What was that like getting back into that car after would have what would have been 25 years?

47:37 Yeah. Oh, it was so, so much fun. You know, I was quite nervous because it's someone's pride and joy and I'm sure my driving skills and reflectors aren't what they were. So I don't really know, You know, this could all end in disaster. I don't really want it to end in disaster. So I didn't really know what to do.

47:54 And I thought I would just go slow. And then there was the sister car out there at the same time and that was catching me up very rapidly. And I thought, well, this is not right. So then suddenly, suddenly I think, well, I'm going to have to give this a go. And I thought you go much faster than you ever planned to. You're using more curve than you ever planned to and just having the best time ever.

48:14 It was fantastic. But I'd forgotten how physical it was with no power steering. I know they're not huge cars with huge levels of grip, but flipping AG I was thinking are they ever going to put out the chequered fag? But loving it, it was great. It was really good. Obviously we had your teammate there that weekend as well where Roger Moen was a guest on the previous day and obviously as you said that that championship came down to the wire, to that soaking wet day of brands where you and Roger were going for the title and you ultimately came out on top.

48:49 Much I must say to Roger's distaste even to this day, he was still a little bit upset that he nabbed him at the line on on that day. But obviously that must be fond memories for you, winning that title in the BTCC, winning the production club. Yeah, it was great. Jason Plato won the main class so that was a bit bonkers that 2 flatmates. We.

49:13 Weren't flatmates at that point. I think we'd tell me Fuller announced at that point. But we're still friends and it was quite, quite quirky. You just think you have to pinch yourself. It's like 3 or 4 years ago. We're sat on the sofa watching terrible telly on a little tiny portable telly, waiting for the cleaners to come next day to try and sort the flat out. And then only a few years later, both touring cards champion. So that was, that was quite special. But no, it was a great day.

49:41 It was, you know, sometimes when you win a championship, it's, it's, it's really exciting and you feel uplifting. Other times it's just a flipping relief. And I think that that year it was just a relief and you kind of, rather than wanting to go passing, you just wanted to go home and sit down and think, you know, thank God we've done that because that was quite tight all year.

49:59 I was going to say you must have been, you must have woken up and seen that horrendous weather that there was that day and just thought, why, why does it have to be like this today? Because it was so close between you and Roger and and James K as well in the, in the, the civic. So the accord I, I looked at the the qualifying times earlier and you were a thousandth of a second quicker than Roger in, in qualifying and nabbed him to pole by literally one thousandth of a second.

50:28 I mean, it's such a tight championship. It was a tight championship, yeah. But it that day was a weird day because in qualifying, I didn't make the end of qualifying. I think he only did the first half. And then for the first time all season, we had a fault with the engine and it just drifted to a halt at the bottom of Padakil. Ben and I had to sit there and wait for the results of qualifying.

50:50 And it just. It felt a really weird weekend. That was the first thing that kind of was unnerving. So that kind of set the scene. And it was like, I just want to get through this. And then you had the rain and it it was a stressful day for sure. Any were there any murmurings or any chance of you taking a step up back into the Torres because you won that championship or was it a close shop at that point?

51:18 In in all honestly, no. I remember bringing up Ian Harrison, boss of AAA running the Astros, and he basically just quite brutally just said, just tell us how much money you've got. And it was like, and that was kind of what it was all about at that point. It's just how much money have you got? And I kind of, I always like a motorsport bit to going surfing.

51:38 I should explain you've got this paddle of the way out using a huge amount of effort and eventually you'll catch a wave. And if you're Lewis Hamilton, you ride that wave all the way into the shore, you step off your surfboard, walk into the distance. It must be. But for most drivers, you've paddle all the way out.

51:55 You get on, you come off and now you've got to paddle the way out again, get on, try and get back in, fall off. And I think, you know, I had a few sort of falling offs and trying to get back on. And every time you get back on, it's more and more effort. And I think at the end of that year I thought there are no opportunities in touring cars unless you've got a big budget and probably only gave it 1/2 hearted attempt. I remember at the Touring Car Awards at the end of the year being sort of interviewed on the stage and sort of saying, right, it's the third time I've won this championship, I'd love another opportunity but you know, no one comes to see you, you can't get anyone on the phone. So it's quite demoralising.

52:29 And I kind of thought that's probably it. I thought I've run out of energy. But like all these things, it's like you run out of energy, give it a few months and suddenly you've got energy from somewhere. One of my old sponsors had kind of taken pity on me and he'd bought a Honda Integra and he was doing what was called Brit car racing, which was very club racing, but really good championship with big entries and it was all sort of like 2 hour type races.

52:54 And we, he had won at Silverstone, me and him and we won. So that was well exciting and we did. So he decided let's do another one. We went to Snetterton and first one at Silverstone I drove, then he drove. So at Snetterton we decided to do it the other way around. So he drove first and within about 5 laps, the car had caught fire. So that's, that was a weird 1.

53:14 And so that that was the end of that day. And he didn't really plan to do anything else that year. So it was all a bit of a damp squid. And then no idea quite how this came about. But myself and Paul Ridgeway from GR, most of what were talking and we came up with the idea of going back to Macau because we've been there a few times.

53:32 And we came up with the idea like, where are we going to get car from? And I said, ah, my friend's got this burned out car. I reckon he'd lend it to us for free if we got it repaired. So it's like, OK, that's good. And we, he agreed to that because he was, well, happy about that. We got a really good engine done and suddenly we've got a bit of a package to go to Macau.

53:55 So just to explain to Macau, it's almost like a tyranny called World Cup at the end of the year. It was entry small over the world. It's quite based around sort of what's called super production. So 2 litre saloon cars, all different types, BMWs, Alphas, Hondas, all sorts of different things, but no sequential gearboxes like standard H pan, but sort of dog boxes.

54:18 So they're real proper cars but not a super terrain. They're really great fun to drive really quick, just the same as other one about the big class of touring cars in so we've got to Macau. Bear in mind I hadn't really raced all year and 1st practise we end up second. It's like, Oh my God, what's going on here?

54:35 It was like the weirdest thing you'd expect to be 10 for 15 for against competition. There's a works entry of three BMWs, including three times world champion Andy Prio. So it's and two works drivers. So it's like a second, this is a bit weird. Remember bringing the guy up his car? It was going, you won't quite believe what's happened. I think for qualifying ended up third, which again was unheard of.

55:03 We've done the cow a few times, but always qualified, let's say 10th, 11th, 12th, something like that, but always managed to make quite a few places in the race. So one way you would actually sort of come further, which is great. But anyway, this year with 3rd on the grid to start, which was bonkers, morning warm up came. I actually went quickest.

55:20 So it was like it was quite unbelievable. Then in the race again it was we ended up dropping back because the BMW is a rear wheel drive. They get off the line so you're swamped by works BMWs. But had a really good got way back, 3 seconds line, second last lap, about three corners to go, one of the BMWs just wipes me out from behind and destroys the car. It was very sad.

55:44 Straight into the wall. I remember then trying to then drive it. It hasn't really got a rear axle at this point, but I'm trying to drive it back to the pits thinking that they can repair it because it was 2 races you'd have a 10 minute gap. Of course, Yeah, yeah. I think it's all right, Paul will get this repaired for the second. But it was not wanting to drive back very well. So I parked it in a very narrow bit of the track where I swore there was no space either side for a single car to get through. But they were still coming through at about 100 miles an hour, parked in the middle of the track. Anyway, end of the race came, got out, it was quite apparent that car wasn't going anywhere.

56:23 And we went back to the pits with the car on the back of a truck and remember getting back to the pit lane and everyone was cheering. And I had absolutely no why, no idea why they were cheering. And then sort of a minute later, the other chaff who wiped me out, he came back in a truck as well. Car parked on the back of a truck. He's in the cab, he jumps out and now everyone's burning. And this is a whole sort of grandstand of, I don't know, 20,000 people on the start, finish straight. And I think, Oh my God, they were cheering for me and they're booing him.

56:51 And it was just the most crazy experience ever. And yeah, I think that will go down as my most favourite race. You know, it was one of the high points of the career I set on that record. And, you know, who knows what would have happened? 2nd place everyone forgets about anyway. And we still had the second leg to go, but because of that incident, the sponsors were so angry they ended up paying for us to do European touring cars the following year. So it gave me another amazing opportunity. So again, it's funny how motorsport or life in general works.

57:23 One disaster somehow a great opportunity. But yeah, that will also remember being my sort of most famous or most precious moment in motorsport, you know, doing the impossible and nearly winning Macau. I mean, Macau is, is just a bonkers track, isn't it? It's a, you know, fast rates and then you go through the tight twisty stuff all the way up to the top.

57:46 It's just a crazy, crazy track. As you say, where you, where you're saying you parked it. It's barely room to fit 2 cars. It's it's an unusual race track. I was expecting a red flag and another few minutes for Paul to find a rear axle. Yeah, it's an interesting finale to your career, though again involving Macau, because you end up in the World Touring Car Championship for the finale in 2005.

58:18 Yeah, back to your surf surfing analogy. I spoke. I'm now back off on the surfboard and we're now doing European touring cars. But that was almost, that was the worst car I ever drove. It was. And that was no one's fault because Paul from GR ran the car and we got given it by another team. First Test we did and it was at Monza and I remember that night we almost like we're all in.

58:41 I think there's a load of us, even 1 hotel room to try and save money and we were laughing because we were 9 seconds off the pace. Your in lap is not 9 seconds off the pace when you're calling. That kind of set the scene for the whole year. So it's best to gloss over that hole. That's exciting happened but I'm off the surfboard again now back out thinking flipping out what paddle again? At the end of the year I managed to talk and I would sponsor into one final do or die attempt and it was in a a Honda again run by an Italian team.

59:23 The car, they had a 2 car team but only occasionally had a second driver, but whenever they went to certain circuits they did exceptionally well. So it was interesting because this car was clearly quick and I tested it at Valencia, which is a very flat, smooth circuit and went really fast. So I was really excited by this. I thought my God, here we go, we could do something special at Macau.

59:46 Unfortunately, when we got to Macau, I realised that this car only ever went quick on a smooth, flat surface and Macau is bumbling and it was just a death trap and whatever we did, it couldn't make it go quick and it was so scary to drive in the wall it went and that was that. So ended that career.

1:00:06 But you know, it's a nice way to end. It's in certain ways in what is my favourite track and that I'll always be very, very fond of. You kind of knew that was the last time falling off the surfboard and I'm not getting then. So you, you knew at the time, did you knew that was it for you? Yeah, yeah. I think every sort of driver is really competitive and you're not in it for the taking part, you are in it for the winning. The fun bit is not the racing.

1:00:35 The fun bit is standing on the podium. And the day you kind of work out, you're not going to stand on podiums. You kind of don't see the point of it all. So it was very clear that that was that. Did you look back? Was there any sadness in that at all or just accepted it and and and moved on? You're bound to be sad because it's been 20 odd years of your life, but I suppose at that sort of time whole other life was starting to sort of appear for me. So I ended up getting involved in filming motorsport just as a one man band, just me doing it all by myself. But I really fell in love with that and you're still in the paddock, you're still mixing all your old mates, you're still staying in the pit lane.

1:01:16 So you're still involved, but rather than sort of having one good day and three bad days and one good day, three bad days, which is the life of anyone trying to win a championship, suddenly now every day is pretty good and you're loving it. And it's sort of less pressure. And I managed to start a bit of a company and we now work for all sorts of people like Porsche, Mercedes, F1, Aston Martin, F1F1 themselves, a lot for Ford racing. And there's a team about 25 of us all doing it and it's really good.

1:01:45 So I'm not sad because that gave birth to a whole sort of second life which I really enjoy. So still hugely involved in motorsport and still, you know, the biggest motorsport fan and not out there and just love it, love it. There's no I still get excited every time I drive into a circuit, still get excited every time I step foot in a pit lane.

1:02:07 So I'm sure you're exactly the same. It's just a wonderful sport to be involved in. Small enough to be family, but big enough that there's plenty going on. The one moment you look back on, I think you sort of mentioned it there, that race at Macau in O3, despite Yergmueller doing what he did, that that seems to be the highlight of your career. I think I, like, I remember my dad always used to watch any sport, would always support the underdog. So I think I like being the underdog. And I think that was the ultimate underdog experience. Turning up at Macau, having not raced really all year and being thrown into like the World Cup of sort of slim car touring car racing and suddenly pulling it

1:02:51 out of the bag. So yeah, that was quite incredible to have, you know, had the results there and done it with that team who had been so amazing for so many years. So yeah, it's definitely that moment. And also winning the championship in another 100 Integra in 1999. So I should really be buying 100 Integra, shouldn't I? You really should.

1:03:15 He's one of the dream cars. Sadly, that's all we've got time for on this week's episode of Stories from Super Touring. A huge thank you to Simon for joining me today. And of course, thank you all for tuning in and listening. No worries. Thank you. It's been great fun chatting to you, Alex. Great fun. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please give us a follow on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

1:03:40 And if you've got any questions, feedback, suggestions for future guests, please get in touch with our new e-mail address, mail@supertouringpod.com. You can also support the show by joining our Paddock Club over at patreon.com/super Touring Pot. We'll be back next. Week. We will be joined by Greg Denton and Andrew Charman to look back at a controversial Brands Hatch 1992 meeting.

1:04:08 So until then, we'll see you next week. Goodbye.