Spooky Rivers, with Geo Rutherford

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Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and today I have a special interview for you. I got to chat with Gio Rutherford, known for Spooky Lake Month and her Haunted Hydrology book series, which includes the latest installment, Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers That Snake Across Our Planet, which she wrote and illustrated. This is just a really super fun book, full of science, full of history and culture, and and amusing and amazing illustrations. We are big fans in my household, so I was delighted to get a chance to chat with her. Now, Gio was in the middle of some book promotion travel, so if you're watching the video version of this episode on Netflix, you're going to notice that

she is recording from a stationary car. We felt this was better than having her record on the move or on a ferry, though I suppose that would have been apt for the subject matter, right? Anyway, without further ado, let's jump right in to the interview. Hi, Gio. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind during the month of October. That's when the interview is publishing. And this is a big month for you, right?

Yeah, I actually feel like I should have started with, yes, hello, because that's how I usually start my videos in October. It is Spooky Lake Month. We are in the midst of it.

And are there any teasers you want to throw out about the sort of content that listeners and viewers can expect?

Well, Spooky Lake Month is a little bit of a misnomer because it's always been about anything wet and weird. So any type of, we say it's 31 days of haunted hydrology. And I've been saving up a few rivers for this year. So I'm looking forward to talking about the Congo River and the Ganges River and some rivers that are extremely spooky.

Now, when you say haunted hydrology, can you, for anyone out there, I think most of our listeners are going to be familiar with what you're all about. But can you explain what this means to you, like what it is and also what it isn't?

Yeah, that's a very important thing because I do think it's a little, it can be a little bit on the outside, a little confusing. But Spooky Lake Month is awesome. all nonfiction. It's about the world being spooky by herself. It's about environmental disasters. It's about history. It's about natural phenomena and science. And it's not about true crime or ghosts and ghouls or conspiracy theories. It's more trying to focus on the historical events in the natural world. Awesome.

Yeah. My kiddo is the one who introduced me to you and your work. And I And that's one of the things they stressed at the top. They're like, no, no, no, dad, it's not ghosts. This is science. This is geology. This is great content. And indeed, it is. So we're here mostly to talk about the book. I have it right here.

I'm going to hold it up for folks viewing on Netflix. Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers that Snake Across Our Planet. This is out now. This is the second in your Haunted Hydrology series that began with Spooky Lakes and You wrote this, you illustrated it. It's a great mix of science, geology, history, hydrology. Were there particular books that you loved as a young person that kind of like inspired or informed the ultimate shape of these two volumes?

Definitely. I was a child of a science teacher. My mom was an earth science teacher. She has a PhD in geology, hence my nickname has always been Geo, owed to Sandra's sense of humor. And when I was a kid, I really loved those, you know, different types of books that just were packed full of information. I was such a science-y kid. I thought I would become a science teacher, but I ended up going the route of doing art instead.

But I just loved science information. And the one I wrote to my publisher about when I first started working was I'm not going to remember the guy's name who made it, but it was the books of castles where it was like a cross section of castles. And then you could see what everybody was doing inside the castle.

It's like a history of like medieval times. Um, I was obsessed with that book as a kid. And so that's kind of the one that stands out in my mind when I was thinking about illustrating this book.

Um, I'm going to jump ahead to a question I had for later because I think it's connected here, but, um, I have a lot of fond memories of finding hidden things in the books of my childhood, particularly like there's an artist by the name of John O'Brien who did Favorite Tales of Monsters and Trolls, and they're always little details.

And I know you have some little things hidden, some itty-bitty ghosts hidden in these books. Can you tell us a little bit about where that came from and how readers can look for them?

Yeah. I definitely also feel like a childhood from Where's Waldo and I Spy is inspiration here. When I was an undergrad, some of my first etchings, I have a printmaking background, I included little ghosts. So I'd actually been doing this for a long time leading up to this book coming out. And then for my videos, if you ever watch my TikTok videos or whatever, my social media, I include a hidden good soup. So my audience knows to look for a tiny hidden good soup in the videos.

And the ghosts were kind of an ode to that concept. People really love it, but I don't think people outside of the Spooky Lake Month community would really understand the good soup reference. It's kind of like a deep internet meme that escaped... into my videos and so the ghosts are kind of an ode to that and an ode to the fact that I do love spooky stuff and I love ghosts and I love the whole kind of vibe but at the same time this is nonfiction so it's kind of a it's like a little tiny thing about the horrors of history.

Now you've already told us a little bit about your your background as a visual artist. For folks not familiar with the social media presence. How did the Spooky Lakes business start up on TikTok and then like on Instagram?

Yeah. So I was a high school teacher. I taught high school ceramics and I decided to go to grad school about five years into teaching. And I was just going to continue being a teacher. I loved being a teacher. But I did three years in grad school and I wrote my thesis about the Great Lakes. So I was doing a lot of research about Lake Michigan and pollution and invasive species and everything that's going on with our Great Lakes. And it made me really appreciate how special they are and how unique they are in the world of lakes. And as a result, in 2020, during the pandemic, I posted a off the cuff video about Great Lakes education, truly just like telling people about how they formed And it popped off, did really well. And I've literally been

riding that wave ever since, just like making educational content about lakes of the world. And Spooky Lakes was kind of an accident. I just happened to recognize that there's a lot of weird looking lakes on Earth. And that first year in 2020, the videos were limited to a minute. And I just did lakes that kind of looked weird.

Ever since then, we've kind of branched out to a little bit more than just lakes that are kind of visually weird. And now it's more interested in science and history and so on and so forth. But yeah, that's where it started. And it was surprising that so many people loved it. Yeah.

Now, I haven't seen the earliest videos that you did. My kiddo showed me a bunch of the ones that they were really digging at the time. Did you begin with using like little bits of art and sort of the signature, I guess, framing of your videos?

Yeah, my forehead at the bottom. Yeah. That was something from the very beginning, actually. And it's not— I wish it was like I was cool and thinking about it, but actually it was just because I couldn't figure out how to shrink my head. Like, I would try to pinch my head to shrink it so it would be smaller, and I couldn't do it. And so I just kind of put my head at the bottom to get out of the way, and I— Those early videos were more rough and kind of made more haphazardly. Now they're more curated.

I definitely work harder to make sure that the videos are about two and a half minutes at the most. And yeah, I use kind of an accumulation of content from all over the place and my own work, my own paintings, if it's relevant to the video as well.

And when did you realize this was going to take the form of a series of books?

Oh, yeah. In 2021, I had a really good year. Spooky Lake Month did super well in 2021, and I had a literary agent reach out to me, and kind of the rest is history. We started working on the concept of the book, and then I started to paint the book in 2023, 2024, and then it came out in 2024. So I had no idea that this could result in a book, but it does feel like a marriage of all of my favorite things as an artist, as a pursuer of spooky things, and as a fan of lakes and water. It's kind of a perfect blend of all of those interests that I have.

So do you write first and then illustrate? Is that the process roughly?

Yeah, I kind of wish that it was a little more mixed up. But yeah, you kind of have to do things in giant chunks. So I actually do the first thing is just writing the whole thing from start to finish. And you even go in and you start making some pretty heavy edits at that point. And then you go in and I have to do a sketch for everything. So I have to draw everything and even do the layouts because that helps me kind of understand what fits in the spaces for the compositions. And then from there, you do all the painting all in one go.

So it's very much like blocked into those three categories of working.

Now, does your sort of illustrator brain ever sort of get ahead of your writing brain? And do you sort of ever pick something out because you really want to illustrate that later on during the illustration phase?

Definitely. There's even a few little tidbits in the book where I was like, man, we have to include this because I just really want to paint it. I just think it's the most fun thing ever to paint. I definitely start thinking about the compositions way ahead of time before I ever get to them. And some of them come so easily, and it feels like the first composition that I kind of pictured in my mind ends up kind of coming to fruition. And then other times, something really unexpected happens, and I don't know what I'm going to do from the get-go, but it kind of ends up turning into something unexpected that I didn't know was going to happen at the beginning. So that's kind of a fun part of the artistic process.

So, again, the first book was Lakes. The new book is Rivers. I think everyone listening or watching this interview knows the difference between the two. But I thought you might speak to maybe the difference in spirit of the two things, you know, in terms of your writing and illustrating.

Oh, yeah. You know, it's interesting. When it comes down to it, I feel like I didn't expect there to be such a dramatic difference just in the way that these things behave. lakes are, they kind of contain and they hold, it feels like their stillness kind of holds secrets beneath the surface. And rivers are kind of always on the move and they're so destructive. Like there was so many destructive topics that I could have talked about with this book just because they're very violent as a feature on this earth. So it was interesting because writing about lakes felt a little bit more like I was writing about what was hidden beneath the surface more. And writing about rivers was more about writing about violence and

writing about something that was, is so intuitively like destructive and sometimes very unexpected. Like a river is more likely to kill you than a lake in most cases. There's some deadly, there's some pretty deadly lakes that you got to be careful about, but definitely rivers are just, you know, crazy.

So it's kind of like if lakes and rivers were like Dungeons and Dragons monsters, the lakes are more like waiting for you to fall into them. Yeah. And the river is going to actively come after you.

Yeah, exactly. And lakes have the opportunity because they're kind of holding this water. There's strange things that happen to the composition of that water if you leave it there for long enough. So lakes that are salty or lakes that are... acidic or lakes that are base or things like that. Different things happen when the water is kind of sitting there for a long time. We still have weird rivers in that, like the Rio Tinto in Spain, it has had mining runoff flowing into it for thousands of years, and it's turned like neon red, neon orange as a result. Even though it's kind of constantly flowing, it's so strong, this runoff, that it's kind of affected...

the river itself, but that's a little more rare versus a lake can be very much polluted and stay polluted for a long time because that water is not on the move. It's sitting there and kind of holding. So I find that to be kind of an interesting difference between the two things. Oh, wow.

Yeah. So I want to ask some specific questions about some things in the book. And again, I recommend everyone pick up a copy of this. Can you tell us, I can tell you had a lot of fun illustrating this one and it's fabulous to behold. Can you tell us a little bit about the zombie salmon of the Fraser River?

Yeah, man, you nailed like one of my favorite paintings in the book too. I really loved painting a giant rotting dead salmon. It was so much fun. Like for sure, one of my favorite paintings. And I really liked painting I painted the salmon head on a plate, and that was just like, when else am I going to get that opportunity to paint something like that? The zombie salmon, you know, I just presented to a bunch of kids on this book tour, and it's amazing how even kids here out in Washington, they don't really know a lot about the fact that these salmon travel from the Pacific Ocean.

They spend years in the Pacific Ocean, then they come up the rivers, and that's something a lot of people know about. But what people don't know is that through that process, they transform. The sockeye salmon really transform. That's what I do in my book. I showcase in my book because they turn like neon red and green and they get this hump on their back and they get this giant hooked nose with these elongated teeth. They're very scary looking. And as they're working their way up the river and they're battling for this right to spawn, they are tearing each other apart and they're using all of their body's resources. So what happens is they are in this process of fulfilling the lives of their next generation.

They are actively dying and their death is very slow where they actually are literally molding and rotting while they're still swimming in the river. And so you end up with these like really grotesque looking fish that are still, they're on the move. They're trying to fulfill their destiny of spawning in these tributaries. And at the same time, they're kind of the walking dead fish. So it is such an interesting topic and it's so gross. I found that rivers, I talked a lot more about animals and rivers because there's just so many strange and unusual animals in the rivers of the world. Yeah.

Another one that I can tell you also had a lot of fun illustrating is the Goliath tigerfish. How does this one shape up to the zombie salmon in terms of, I guess, creepies? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I think that my painting, the one thing with my painting is as much as I had fun painting it, I don't really know if it shows the scale very well. The Goliath tigerfish are enormous. They are enormous, giant fish with humongous teeth. They are found all over in different areas of Africa, but they're especially found in the Congo River.

And the Congo River is kind of scary. That painting is another interesting side to that painting is that there's no way for us to ever photograph the bottom of of the Congo River. It's 700 feet deep, which is the deepest river in the world, and it's full of sediment, so there's always moving mud and sediment in the water.

As a result, you can't see more than one foot in front of you, maybe not even a few inches in front of you. So I had to really imagine what this world would look like in this sediment-filled void in this river, in the darkest points of this river. So you have to kind of like take the artistic interpretation a little bit where you wouldn't really be able to see these branches and these sticks and these leaves that are all kind of flowing around in some of the greatest rapids on Earth. And I imagine that nothing like, you know, plants and like, you know, algae and stuff struggle to survive in that type of environment because there isn't enough sunlight there. So I was kind of doing this kind of barren landscape with these huge Goliath tigerfish.

And it was a really interesting thing to paint. And that painting was very, I was like figuring it out as I go, which I don't do very often. So looking back, it was a really fun experience to paint that.

Yeah, yeah. That was a very eye-catching illustration for sure. Now, I was also really excited to read in the book, you have the section about underground rivers, focusing on Shibuya River in Japan. Can you tell us a little bit about underground rivers in general, how you selected this particular one, and how excited we should be for the underground temple?

Yeah, you actually can go and travel to the underground temple in Tokyo. If you wanted to do a really weird tourist trip, is that you can actually go to their... Tokyo has buried a lot of their rivers, like, many cities in the world. The other one that I really thought about doing was the River Neckinger in London, which was this river that they ended up covering over, but it was, like, where many people got, like, hung alongside of, and so it has this really morbid history. But in Tokyo...

That was like a river valley. Like, there were so many rivers there, and most of them are now kind of covered by concrete. Shibuya is just one of many. Actually, in my painting for... the second page where there's kind of these neon signs over this concrete trench holding the only part of this river that you ever really get to see, which is like in this concrete kind of belly.

And all of the signs in neon are actually the names of all of the other rivers that are buried underneath the city in Tokyo as well. So kind of giving an ode to the fact that there's just hundreds of these rivers that have vanished beneath the concrete. Um, And the other reason I picked that one instead of other cities was because people in Japan actually like to trace these rivers and kind of rediscover these rivers and find where their source is and try to figure out where they are under the concrete by tracing the sounds of water and where there are little bridges that used to go over the water. So I found that to be really interesting. kind of romantic, this idea that we're kind of trying to rediscover these waterways that we've buried.

And so Tokyo partly did that because they have a flooding issue. And unlike a lot of cities in the world, they're really trying to prevent this from happening, where cities kind of become these holding grounds for water when you have these massive rain events or flooding events. So they built an underground... essentially this temple, this huge holding tank for a massive, massive amount of water. And they take you on tours down there, so you can kind of go and walk around. It feels like cavernous, like something out of Lord of the Rings and these giant caves and tunnels, but it's been funneled out by humans to be able to make sure that during flooding events, the water doesn't end up in the subways and it doesn't

end up in basements. Instead, it gets all specifically tunneled into this intricate system that Tokyo has built. So yeah, I love talking about those underground rivers.

Yeah, I had to look up some photos of it after seeing your illustration. And yeah, it looks like looks like a cathedral, also looks kind of like maybe the inside of a spaceship. I wish I'd known it was there when I visited Tokyo. If I go back, I'm going to have to try and hunt this down.

Definitely feels like a good modern day tourist thing to do. Like you don't really, that's kind of on the outer bounds of tourism in Tokyo.

Yeah. And in general, just this, yeah, this idea of underground rivers, like I know in the first book, you have examples of of underground lakes of different sorts. And yeah, the spirit of the two is rather different, right? Because with the underground rivers, like these are things on the whole that humans have put underground. We've kind of imprisoned them underneath our cities and other structures, right?

Mm-hmm. There are some places that have underground rivers that are natural in these karst landscapes, such as the Yucatan Peninsula. I did include the Sac-Aquitune, which is a river in the Yucatan Peninsula that is fully underground. The Yucatan Peninsula has no natural rivers on the surface because it's so, I'd say the ground is kind of like Swiss cheese.

Like it just has so many holes and crevices and caves where this water flows. That's also where you get these really spooky cenotes that I talk about in the Lakes book and I also reference in the Rivers book. I love those because they were like the main water source for the Maya and for Aztec communities as well, just like using these sinkholes that popped up In the ground. So, yeah, I love things that vanish underground are very spooky inherently.

I don't know if you've ever covered this one on your show, and I'm not sure there's enough here. It may not be that interesting. But here in Atlanta at our major airport, Hartsfield Jackson, we do have part of the Flint River that goes underneath the airport. And every now and then I'll look that up on like Google Maps and kind of like say, oh, yeah, there it goes.

And then, oh, you can peek at it again here. And then it's back under the airport. Yeah.

No, that is. I mean, it definitely fits into that category of like rivers that we've tried to harness, rivers that we've tried to kind of lock down. I think the river I regret not including in the book a little bit was the Los Angeles River, which is another river that's you know, cradled in concrete. It's essentially this concrete passage that we've kind of put through the center of one of the most populated places on earth. And during storms, it's essentially like a glorified water slide. It essentially just, water goes flying down these concrete channels at 45 miles an hour, like moving so fast. And people who get caught up in that really can't get out again.

So that was kind of, I think that any river that we have messed with is really kind of fascinating because it never goes well. Yeah, absolutely.

I've heard you in other interviews, I'm thinking particularly of the one you did with Allie Ward, We've talked about traveling, getting to travel and visit some of these sites, be they domestic or international. So I was wondering, was there a particular river covered in the book that you have traveled to that you found really fascinating? And is there one that you haven't been to that you hope to see one day?

Definitely. My favorite river that I traveled to, which was a very... intense trip in my life, which was I went to the Boiling River with Andres Rousseau. He's the scientist who kind of is credited with bringing the world's attention to this river that boils in the I happened to notice that he followed me on Instagram and I followed him back. And then he invited me to come last year. So I traveled down to Peru, starting through Lima.

Then we went, flew to Pucallpa. And then you took this four by four, the craziest drive of my entire life in a four by four vehicle to a town called Honoria, where you get on a boat on a Peque Peque. And then you walk through the literal jungle where you're, you can see monkeys and insects and tarantulas and scorpions and you're walking through like sometimes extremely thick mud which is kind of unnerving and you're sweating for two weeks straight without stopping which was not something I was used to and then you get to this river that is literally frothing and boiling and bubbling and there's steam that's like you know pulsing into the surrounding jungle and And it's incredible. It's the only boiling river in

the world that isn't connected to a volcano. And it's the hottest river in the world. Andres has measured spots of it up to 210 degrees Fahrenheit. Wow. Yeah, it's very... It's scary because people have fallen in and died there. There's at least seven deaths that we know of that have happened at the Boiling River. And I know that people who have accidentally, like, their foot has slipped in have also suffered some pretty serious burns as a result.

But it's also different than a lot of these volcanic rivers because it doesn't have any heavy metals in it and it doesn't have, like, arsenic or any kind of toxic elements. aspects to it. Um, and so you can actually drink it. It's like the one place in the world where you can go and just take a cup of tea and dip it in the river and then drink it. Um, there's no, there's nothing in the water that it's like as clean as bottled water. So it was a really amazing trip and I'll never go again.

Did you actually, did anyone on this trip actually do like put a teabag into some tea?

Oh no, we did it every morning. We would go down every single morning and we would all meet together at the, because it's a very steep location. It's called Mayantiaku. That's the hottest part of the river. And you'd have to walk, like, it felt like a workout every morning. You'd have to walk up to the food to get breakfast.

So we'd all meet first at the river with our cups and our tea. And we also boiled eggs and some people made ramen. And it was kind of, it's an interesting, it's like a little community place right next to the river. And it was really beautiful. So, yeah.

Like a naturally occurring hot pot sort of situation.

Yeah, yeah. The water is filtered through like a porous rock under the ground. So that's the reason why it's like missing some of the stuff that other rivers would have. But then on top of that, it's also so hot that it kind of burns off any little critters that would be living in the water.

Oh, wow. And so what's one that you cover in the book that you haven't been to, but that would be right at the top of your list if you could do it? Like, no, you know, cost doesn't matter. International politics doesn't matter. You just, you get to go there and see it. What would it be?

The first thing that came to mind was the Strid in England. It's kind of an iconic river because a lot of times people, when they talk about like the most deadly river in the world, You know, it would probably logically be the Yellow River in China, which has killed millions of people just by its insane floods. But this river has kind of an iconic status as having a 100% mortality rate. And oftentimes, if you fall into this river, your body will never be seen again because it vanishes kind of beneath the surface. The River Wharf starts at 30 feet across near the Bolton Abbey in Yorkshire.

And it funnels down the rock changes. So the actual geology is really important here because the rock goes from a hard rock that can't be eroded to a very soft rock that is very easily eroded. So the river funnels down to like six feet across at its tightest point, but with the same amount of water as what was flowing in that 30 foot across area. And they kind of compare it to the... have you ever heard of the slot canyons in the American Southwest? There are these really deep canyons that have been formed by flooding water, but they're usually dry when you go and you can go and hike in them. And that's kind of how you imagine the strid looking beneath the water is that it's kind of this tight channel that's carved potentially a

couple hundred feet down in the ground, and it's flowing extremely quickly. It's not maybe visually the most exciting thing in the world, but I feel like I just really want to go out there and see it myself. I feel like it would be a really interesting trip. And also there's all sorts of other stuff in England worth seeing.

I also included the River Ribble in my book as well, and I'd love to just get out there to see that.

So the strid, the entry for this one is super good. Like when I read it, I was like, I could just ask about this river for the whole interview. This is the one, right, with the story of the little boy and the dog?

Yes.

Yeah. Am I remembering correctly?

William Romilly. Yeah. He's like kind of one of the legends of the strid. There's a few where you're like, is it... did this really happen or is this just a legend? It's kind of hard to tell what's real or not. But William Romilly was a little boy who was standing by the river with his dog, this greyhound.

And he had apparently jumped across this river many times in his childhood. And it was like something that he went to play there many times. But this time the dog refused to jump with him and checked him in his leap. And as a result, he fell in and the dog was just left on the rocks on the side. And I think it was such an iconic, well, I don't know if iconic is the right word, but it was such a striking image of this boy being lost in the river that it was written by, it was kind of immortalized in a poem about it, which kind of gave it this legendary status and gave it the nickname The Strid as this idea of to stride across or to try to get, to walk across the So, yeah, and I think a painter was lost there, and people

have gotten caught in, like, unexpected flash floods and then kind of gotten swept away into the strid as well. So it has earned its legendary status as being, like, extremely or 100% deadly.

Wow. Now, you mentioned other British waterways, and, of course, you talk about the Thames a bit in this as well. I was really... Struck by, you know, the part where you talk about how it was previously declared, or at least parts of it were declared biologically dead. Yeah. That's crazy to think about in terms of like things that we have done to our rivers, especially close to large metropolitan areas.

I think the Thames is interesting because it has such a long history and it is just such a huge part of the London identity that the fact that it was biologically or ecologically dead was like shocking to people. Like they really had never expected that. And because it's a tidal river, you know, this was a river that dolphins or like large sea animals would have kind of made their way up the river over time because it's brackish.

And so to see it being like just with filled with dead fish, I think would have been a very shocking idea, but it's not actually that rare. Unfortunately, you have a lot of rivers in the world that are so choked by, um, pollution that they can't actually sustain life. I'm thinking about sections of like the Ganges River. And even I think in here in the United States, I think the Potomac River and the Hudson have had their own struggles as well as to making sure that we're not dumping too much into those rivers because it really chokes them out. But it took them a really long time to recover the Thames. And even today, it still struggles a little bit.

But it is inspiring, really, to know that, yeah, we can actually begin to turn back the clock on some of these waterways that we've brought so much damage to.

Yes, definitely.

All right. We're reaching the end of the interview here. I want to make sure you have a chance here to just tell folks where they can follow you, where online they can go on social media, your website and so forth, so they can get into everything that you're doing there in addition to picking up the book.

For sure. You can follow me on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and Facebook at Geodesaurus, which is kind of a, you know, something left over from the pandemic when I didn't know this would be my career. But you can also literally just look up Spooky Lakes on any of those platforms and you're going to end up on my page, especially during Spooky Lake Month. It's kind of something that people often look for during this month. So those are all my socials.

Awesome. Well, Gio, it's been a blast to chat with you here. The new book, again, I'm going to hold it up for folks who are watching on video. The book is Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers That Snake Across Our Planet. Out now, along with the first book in the Haunted Hydrology series, Spooky Lakes. And again, check out all of these amazing videos that you're putting out the entire month of October.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for coming on. Thanks once more to Gio Rutherford. The book, again, is Spooky Rivers, 25 Strange and Mysterious Rivers that Snake Across Our Planet, and Spooky Lakes is also out. I highly recommend them both. Thanks, as always, to the excellent J.J. Possway for producing this episode, and let's see if you want to reach out to us, if you have suggestions for future episodes, and if there are any particular authors or experts you think that I should interview, well, just shoot us an email at contact at stufftobuilyourmind.com.

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