Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin’s Crystalline Chemistry, Part 1

0:01 Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. Today we have another episode inspired by my recent trip to England. While I was there, I kept running into references to chemist Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin.

0:25 She was in the History of Science Museum in Oxford and the Alexander Fleming Laboratory Museum in London. And then after I got home, I realized my phone had tagged a bunch of pictures from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History and the Pitt Rivers Museum as being on Dorothy Hodgkin Road. It started to seem like the universe was trying to tell me something. Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin has come up on two of our previous episodes, the one on the discovery of insulin and the one on the discovery of penicillin, because she earned the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in nineteen sixty four for her use of X ray crystallography to determine the structures of important biochemical substances, including those two. By the end of her career, as

1:14 well as vitamin B twelve. These discoveries were a step and being able to synthesize these molecules and to find other similar molecules that could have the same effects on the body. A lot of important things came out of this research. This is a two part episode. In part one, we are going to talk about her early life and some of the really formative moments in that early life that led her to this career in X ray crystallography, and then in part two we will talk about her research and all those discoveries that she made. Also, usually in my episodes, once someone is out of their childhood, I usually call them mostly by their last name, unless that would be confusing. I think this is kind of a holdover from Earth earlier style guides that were part

2:02 of my career. Yeah, writing and editing stuff. During her life, though, Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin was really insistent that people call her Dorothy, and I saw so many people say this about her that I started to feel a little weirdly formal calling her Crowfoot or Hodgken. In this episode, she wanted to be called Dorothy, and a lot of people said that, So that's mostly what we'll do. Dorothy may Crowfoot was the first of four daughters born to John and Grace Mary Crowfoot. Grace Mary was known as Molly. She was born on May twelfth, nineteen ten, in Cairo, Egypt. The family was living there because of John's work. Britain had established what is sometimes called a veiled Protectorate over Egypt in eighteen eighty two, making it nominally still part of

2:51 the Ottoman Empire, but under British administration, and John worked in the Ministry of Public Instruction in both Egypt and Sudan. When Dorothy's mother, Molly was growing up, she had wanted to become a doctor, and while this wasn't completely impossible in England in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, it was really difficult, and her parents did not see the need for women to attain an education beyond finishing school, so Molly instead trained as a midwife. This training probably played a role in her marriage to Dorothy's father. Mollie's attraction to John was immediate, but he didn't seem to be all that interested in her until about a decade after they first met, when she wrote to tell him

3:37 she had gotten this training and was prepared for overseas service. She was particularly interested in the idea of being able to provide pregnancy care where women didn't have access to medical practitioners, or where it was considered inappropriate for women to be examined by a man, or for a man to attend their birth Yeah, to kind of re between the lines, that sort of seems like he might have thought, I don't know if this person can keep up with my career that involves living and working in Northern Africa and sometimes in places that don't have a lot of resources.

4:12 And then she was like, I'm on board with it. Actually be me. Yeah. Although she was denied access to a formal higher education, Mollie had a lot of self taught and experiential knowledge and subjects like art, botany, and ancient textiles. Over the course of her life, she came to be seen as an international expert in archaeological textiles in particular. She was also an advocate of educational opportunities for girls, and she helped establish schools for girls and places where John worked. All of this certainly played a role in how supportive Molly was of Dorothy's interest in becoming a scientist. The fact that Molly and John didn't have any sons, may have played a part in how open they were to this as well. John and Molly's

5:04 work in Northern Africa meant that Dorothy and her sisters had an upbringing that was unusual for most British children, but not unheard of among the children of colonial administrators and other people working for Britain overseas. At the start of the nineteeneens, Dorothy and her sisters were with their parents in Northern Africa for part of the year, and then in England with grandparents during the hottest months of the summer. When World War One started in nineteen fourteen, Mollie took the girls, Dorothy, Joan, and Elizabeth, who was known as Betty, to England, where they lived with grandparents for the duration of the year. Molly returned to Africa and only saw them once before the war was over.

5:47 She gave birth to their youngest sister, Diana, during the war. These separations from their parents have to have been difficult for the girls, but Dorothy also attributed her independence and her adult life to having been apart from her parents so often and for so long as a child, while being raised mostly by nurses and grandparents, she started attending school, and she became extremely determined to learn. At one point, a nurse wrote a letter to Molly about how Dorothy kept exhausting herself studying, saying, quote, even in her sleep, she was at school and this was not something that Dorothy grew out of. While she was working on her fourth year project at Oxford University, a friend described her

6:33 as working for almost forty hours straight, really looking like a ghost, and losing weight because she was spending so much time in the lab. After the end of World War One, when Dorothy was about eight, she and her sisters were reunited with their mother, who seems to have wanted to make up for the lost time with them.

6:53 They found a home near Beckle's, close to where John had grown up. Mollie taught them at home for about a year with a curiculum that she had developed herself. Now was focused on subjects like poetry, history, natural history, and geography. After that year, Dorothy and her sisters briefly attended a school that was established by the Parents' National Educational Union, which was an organization to help parents establish small private schools in people's homes or in rented rooms.

7:23 As an alternative to local schools that could also help with homeschooling. The Union also trained teachers to work in these schools. This very small school was where Dorothy had her first experience with chemistry and a lesson that involved growing crystals from a solution. Dorothy was ten, and she later said of this quote, I was captured for life by chemistry and by crystals. Before long, Dorothy was putting together her own chemistry lab in her attic room at home, buying materials from the local chemist with her pocket money. Apparently, he didn't put a lot of thought into which chemicals were safe to sell to a child, and her parents trusted her not to do anything really dangerous. Although her

8:10 experiments did involve using a burner in the house. That was the limiting factor in the chemistry set I had growing up. I had to have parental attention to use the burner, which mostly meant not doing Berner experiments. In addition to her growing fascination with science, Dorothy loved to draw and paint. As she got older, she continued to do this as a hobby and it also became an important part of her work in crystallography. Biographer Georgina Ferry described Dorothy as approaching the work of a scientist with the soul of an artist. When she was eleven, Dorothy started attending Sir John Lehman's School in Beccles that was a co educational school. Although it had separate entrances, dining halls,

8:59 and plague for boys and girls, there were also classes that were considered only appropriate for one gender, one of those being chemistry, which was only for boys. That doesn't seem totally surprising given ideas about education and gender in nineteen twenty when this was happening, but it did seem odd considering that the chemistry teacher, Chris Deeley, was a woman. Eventually, Dorothy and her friend Nora were allowed to take chemistry under the argument that they both planned to go to university and that they would need it. Dealey encouraged Dorothy and her chemistry studies, and Dorothy was also getting encouragement from outside of school. When she was twelve, she and her sister Joan went to visit their father in Sudan.

9:45 Dorothy met her father's colleague, doctor Af Joseph, who worked at the Welcome Laboratory in Khartoum. Joseph taught her about chemistry, helped her do experiments, and gave her a surveyor's kit that she could use to identify minerals. During this trip, Dorothy also started to become more aware of the effect of British colonial rule on local people. While the same things were true in Egypt when she was born, she was only about four when she was taken to England in the wake of World War One, so she didn't really remember or know what was going on there, but she started to hear about ongoing problems with poverty and disease, and uprisings against British authorities, and the suppression of those uprisings.

10:30 These were often things she was hearing about rather than directly seeing, although sometimes she did see the aftermath of violent incidents while she was traveling. Molly wanted Dorothy to understand the context of the world she was living in, including these kinds of issues. Dorothy's father was a colonial administrator, but in a lot of ways, he and Molly were idealists and progressive thinkers, at least in the context of their time. For example, John helped establish schools for girls and places where that whole idea was deeply controversial. Molly established a midwiffery school in Khartom, hoping to reduce the practice of genital mutilation also called female circumcision, by offering training to traditional birth attendance. Mollie also joined the League

11:18 of Nations Union, a peace organization established to support the League of Nations, and she enlisted the children in fundraising efforts, including putting on a pageant to raise money. Molly also established a Brownie troop and then a Girl Guide troop, which her daughters participated in. When Dorothy was sixteen, her mother gave her a gift that had the same kind of impact on her as a first chemistry lesson growing crystals, and we will get to that after a sponsor break.

11:57 When Dorothy Crowfoot was a teenager, her mother gave her Sir William Henry Bragg's book Concerning the Nature of Things that was published in nineteen twenty five. This book was a collection of Bragg's nineteen twenty three Christmas lectures at the Royal Institution. The Christmas lectures were meant to be accessible to a general audience, including young people, covering science in an engaging and understandable way. Bragg's first lectures that year were on the nature of atoms, gases, and liquids, and the last three were on crystals. One of the things Bragg talked about in these lectures was the use of X rays to study molecules, which is a very new idea. In nineteen fourteen, Max von Laua had been

12:42 awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for discovering the diffraction of X rays through crystals. Basically, Von Laua realized that if you passed an X ray through a crystal, it created a diffraction pattern on a photographic plate, sort of like the way light passing through a screen creates pattern of shadows. William Henry Bragg and his son, William Lawrence Bragg built on this discovery, finding mathematical relationships between the X rays, the crystals, and the diffraction patterns, and building an X ray spectrometer to study these patterns. The Bragg's discoveries were possible because of the nature of crystals. The atoms of a crystal are arranged in a regular repeating pattern, So when an X ray passes through a crystal, the

13:29 diffraction pattern that it creates correlates with the pattern of those atoms, creates dark areas that X ray crystallographers can use to figure out the location of each atom and then determine the physical structure of the molecule. The Brag's early work was on the structure of several salts and relatively small molecules, and they were jointly awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for this work in nineteen fifteen. In her own Nobel lecture, Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin cited one particular passage from William Henry Bragg's concerning the nature of things.

14:05 That passage was quote, broadly speaking, the discovery of X rays has increased the keenness of our vision over ten thousand times, and we can now see the individual atoms and molecules. But beyond this one quote brags writing about crystals, and these lectures really struck her and I personally find it really beautiful. For example, he wrote, quote order and regularity are the consequence of the complete fulfillment of the attractions which the atoms or molecules exert on one another.

14:37 When the structure has grown to a size which renders it visible in the microscope or even to the naked eye, the regularity is manifest in the form of the solid body it is what we call a crystal. It is bounded by a number of plane faces, often highly polished in appearance, so that the crystal has a certain charm, due partly to ge and sparkle, partly to perfect regularity of outline. We feel that some mystery and beauty must underlie the characteristics that please us, And indeed that is the case. Nature is telling us how she arranges the molecules when given full opportunity. Later on, he went on to say, quote through the crystal. Therefore, we look down into the first structures of nature, though our eyes cannot

15:28 read what is there without the use, so to speak, of strong spectacles, which are the X ray methods. In these lectures, Bragg wrote at length about X rays making it possible for people to see things that would otherwise be unobservable, including atoms and molecules. He also wrote about the physical structure of crystals, making it possible for people to observe things that they would not otherwise be able to see. Reading this in her mid teens, Dorothy was absolutely fascinated. Another formative event in Dorothy's life took place more around the same time that she was first reading Bragg's work on X ray crystallography. In September of nineteen twenty five, when Dorothy was fifteen, her mother took her

16:13 to the sixth Assembly of the League of Nations in Geneva, Switzerland. The League of Nations was established in the wake of the First World War to promote international cooperation and to work toward peace through disarmament and the non violent resolution of international disputes. The League of Nations also promoted international cooperation in addressing issues like human trafficking, drug trafficking, the arms trade, and maintaining fair and humane working conditions, not just in the member countries but in other countries where they had commercial or industrial relations. The Protocol for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, also called the Geneva Protocol of nineteen twenty four, had been passed the League of

16:58 Nations General Assembly the previous year. It called for compulsory arbitration among member nations to settle disputes and outline procedures for how that arbitration would be handled. This protocol had received preliminary approval from the member states, but Britain ultimately had not ratified it. One of the speeches Dorothy and Molly listened to was by French delegate Joseph Paul Boncoeur, who was calling for the League to save what it could of the protocol in spite of its failing ratification.

17:32 While this protocol did not come into effect, the Assembly did call for a disarmament conference that took place in September of nineteen twenty six. Dennis is a whole protocol that was meant to try to prevent war through peaceful negotiation of international disputes. Dorothy described the atmosphere of the General Assembly in the midst of all this as a feeling of quote hope struggling against a sense of doom.

17:58 Even though the nineteen twenty five or Geneva Protocol went unratified, Dorothy had witnessed the process of nations coming together to try to resolve their differences through dialogue rather than violence. Molly's ongoing anti war activism was shaped in part by the loss of all four of her brothers during World War One, and Dorothy's really started to grow after attending the Assembly with her This idea that problems should be solved through dialogue was something that she would carry with her for the rest of her life. In nineteen twenty seven, Dorothy took the exams that were required to attain her school certificate, earning distinction in six subjects. She also earned the highest overall marks of any girl who took the

18:45 exams through her local board that year, and those high marks earned her a cash prize. These high scores were not altogether surprising, considering how bright and dedicated she had already demonstrated herself to be as a student. She had earned really high marks at other times in her education. Sometimes she had been placed in classrooms with students who were a year or more older than she was. But her parents also thought formal schooling was only one of an array of educational experiences that their children should have, So Dorothy had some big gaps at her time at the Lehman's School, including an entire spring term spent with her grandmother in Italy. So she got these really high scores in spite of just like not having been present

19:33 for a lot of the material. Ironically, one of the subjects that she did not earn distinction in was chemistry, and earlier on in her education she had been ranked in the bottom half of the chemistry class. Dorothy's goal at this point was to go to Oxford, and it seems to have been her father's goal for her as well.

19:54 She wrote of him wanting her to be educated in the same way that a son would have been. But it really SEMs like nobody had really looked into the requirements for attending Oxford, not Dorothy, not her family, and not any of her teachers at the Lehman School. She didn't know she would need to take an entrance examination in Latin, a language that she had no familiarity with at all. She didn't know that her math and science instruction were insufficient. She needed to learn a whole other science besides chemistry, and she needed more advanced math than she had gotten. So Dorothy and her family started planning for her to take the Oxford entrance exams in March of nineteen twenty eight. That was when she was going

20:39 to take them, not when they started planning, and so that gave her about a year to try to get ready. During that time, she learned botany from her mother and Latin from George Watson, who was head master of the Lehman School. The math part was a particular challenge. Dorothy had multiple people who could help her, including a former student at the Lehman's School who had gone to London University.

21:02 But she really struggled if she could not understand why a particular answer was the right one. Even if she knew that the answer was right, if she couldn't explain why it was right, she would get really hung up on that part of it. Her sister Elizabeth described finding Dorothy crying over her math homework because she knew that it was right, but she could not explain why. We will get to what happened when she went for her entrance exams after we paused for a sponsor break. Dorothy Crowfoot sat for her Oxford entrance exams in March of nineteen twenty eight, and she was interviewed at Somerville College, named for scientist and science writer Mary Somerville, who we covered on the show in twenty twenty three. Somerville College

21:56 was one of the first women's colleges established at Oxford, and there were several women's colleges by the time Dorothy applied there, but isabel Fry had encouraged Dorothy to apply at Somerville. In particular, Isabelle ran a school that two of Dorothy's sisters were attending, and Isabelle's sister Marjorie was principal at Somerville. Beyond that personal connection, Isabelle thought Dorothy had a good chance of being accepted at Somerville because very few women were applying to study science. Somerville also had the strongest academic reputation of the Oxford women's colleges. Ultimately, all of Dorothy's preparation over that year and maybe also that connection to the principle paid off, and she was

22:42 admitted to Somerville College, Oxford, to start in the fall of nineteen twenty eight. Before she went, she participated in an archaeological dig in jiash and what is now Jordan, and that was co sponsored by Yale University. In the British School of Archaeology in Jerusalem, Dorothy's father, Jo had been appointed director of the school. He had retired from his British Civil Service job in Khartoum, Sudan a couple of years previously, at the earliest age that he could retire and still receive his full pension, and it seemed like the family might be reunited in England after years of long separations because of his work in Northern Africa.

23:22 But then he accepted this appointment. It might seem strange for John to have accepted this job when he was really on the verge of retiring and being with his family, but he had always wanted to be an archaeologist. Before he started working at the Ministry of Education in Cairo, he had studied archaeology and he had gone on some digs, including on behalf of the British Museum. Not ignoring the fact that there's a lot of problematic stuff at the British Museum, this is more about the trust that was placed in him going on these sticks. One of his earlier jobs in Northern Africa had included being acting Conservator of Antiquities in Sudan, but he just did not have the kind of wealth that was required to fund his

24:09 own archaeological digs, and he also didn't have the kind of academic appointment that could allow him to pursue archaeology more full time. So this directorship was basically his dream job that came along later in his life, and it was a big enough deal for him to just put off actually retiring. One of the things that Dorothy did at this dig was work on the excavation and documentation of mosaic floors dating back to the Eastern Roman Empire in the fifth and sixth centuries, and she was really fascinated by their geometry and their repeating patterns, much like the regular patterns of the atoms in crystals, and she started drafting a reproduction of two of these mosaics at one tenth scale. The tiles measured about a centimeter square,

24:57 and she represented each of them with a dot of She worked on these reproductions for about two years after leaving the dig site, and eventually sent them to Yale. She also spent some of her time at this dig studying physics, using a textbook that her Oxford tutor sent to her, since the science she really needed to go along with the study of chemistry was physics, not botany.

25:20 Dorothy Crowfoot was eighteen when she started at Oxford. Her classmates described her as very quiet, which had been true in her earlier education as well, but they also said that she had really interesting things to say if you could just get her to start talking. She also had some limits and how much time she had available to connect with her classmates. An education at Oxford involved a lot of independence study, and that was something that Dorothy was really well prepared for given how much learning she had already done on her own and how often she'd been responsible for her younger sisters when her parents were away.

25:58 She really threw herself into this independent study, especially because Oxford was not actually teaching X ray crystallography yet, so she was having to study everything involved with that on her own. In addition to that, Somerville students were allowed to attend lectures at the other Oxford colleges, and since there weren't many scientists at Somerville, Dorothy was spending a lot of time somewhere else. She came back to her college a lot of the time only for meals and sleep.

26:27 At the same time, she participated in a lot of activities at Oxford. She worked on archaeological digs at Roman sites in the area. She was in the Labor Club, the Archaeological Society, and the Junior Scientific Club. Marjorie Frye also ran the Somerville Crime Club, which was focused on penal reform and the abolition of capital punishment, and Dorothy was a member of that as well. There were a lot of rules around women and their behavior at Oxford, including how and whether women were allowed to interact with men, and there were also rules that affected the very existence of the women's colleges. Their enrollment was capped. They were prohibited from expanding beyond one woman for every four men

27:14 studying across all of Oxford. The women's colleges were a lot newer than the other colleges at Oxford. Those other men's colleges had large endowments a lot of the time thanks to generations of alumni making donations to them. The women's colleges didn't have that history or that money, and then because of that one in four limit, they were also barred from just bringing in a lot more paying women's students to try to bring in more income to the colleges. The women's colleges tend to just have less in the way of money and supplies and equipment than the men's colleges did. In nineteen thirty one, Dorothy was preparing to start on her fourth year research project, which was required for graduation. From home. One of the centers

28:02 of chrystallography in Europe was Germany, and a lot of papers on physics and chemistry were being published in German, so she took a trip to Germany to both work on her German and to get some more lab experience. In spite of her interest in things like the peace movement and the League of Nations, really does not seem like she had a clear idea of what was happening in German politics in nineteen thirty one, or if she did, she might not have taken it very seriously. This was really a pattern in her life. Sometimes it seemed like she had an overly optimistic or even naive belief in the power of international cooperation and peace through dialogue, to the point that she did not see or fully believe

28:46 negative or even horrific things that were happening. I didn't put it in the outline, but in I think nineteen thirty six, she took a trip to Spain when the Spanish Civil War was about to start. Like this happened more than once. When she made this trip to Germany, the Nazi Party was gaining support but had not yet taken control, so to a lot of people, the situation there was escalating and scary at the same time, though her hosts in Germany were Jewish, and Dorothy thought that they did not seem to be very worried. Although she did get some lab time. On this trip, she did not do much to improve for German because her parents came through Germany on their way back to England from a trip, and they took her on a trip to

29:30 visit archaeological museums in Berlin, so not as much pressure while traveling with her parents to speak a lot of German. By the time Dorothy was ready to start her fourth year project, Oxford had set up a basic crystallography lab. Before that, she had thought she might have to go to London, where the Brags were working, and work on her project there, but Herbert Marcus Powell, known as Tiny for his small stature, had just been hired as a demons at Oxford in the mineralogy department. Demonstrator was essentially a junior lecturer position. Powell had hand blown an X ray tube and acquired a camera, creating a very basic crystallography setup. Dorothy was Powell's first student. Yeah, when we

30:19 say very basic crystallography set up, there was an interview that I saw her doing very late in her life where she described this camera as horrible. Apparently it was very rudimentary compared to what actually would have worked really well for doing this kind of work. The two of them worked on determining the structure of dimethyl thallium halides, which were somewhat more complex than the compounds that had already been studied through X ray crystallography. Dorothy grew the crystals and she illustrated them, and they would bombard these crystals with X rays. The crystals would diffract the X rays, which would be picked up by a photographic plate, and Dorothy would also document all of this, including drawing illustrations

31:03 of it, and analyze the results. Figuring out how the patterns on the plate corresponded to specific atoms required trial and error and a lot of math, which Dorothy found very difficult. She also found Powell difficult to work with. It seems she thought he was more of a micromanager than a visionary or a mentor, as she had so often done before. She worked herself to exhaustion, leading her friends to try to look after her and make sure she ate enough rested when she was sick, and spent at least some time out of the lab. When I say difficult math, as somebody whose math instruction ended with pre calculus in nineteen ninety three, not only did I not understand this math. I could not figure out how

31:51 to explain just the basic concepts that she was using or the tools that she was using to help her do it. Math beyond my understanding, beyond my education. Really, if I had ever been taught it, I might could explain it, but not with an education, stopping with pre calculus in nineteen ninety three. After finishing this project, in nineteen thirty two, Dorothy Crowfoot was awarded a first class degree in chemistry from Oxford, making her the third woman ever to earn that distinction. She also earned a scholarship that she could use toward doing further research, and the research that she conducted with Herbert Powell was published in the journal Nature that year under both of their names.

32:39 And we will get into what happened next in her life after she left Oxford next time. This is a little cliffhanger today kind of. This is sort of a moment where her life is about to make a lot of big changes. Bye bye, bub Yeah, I have some listener mail. It is a listener mail correction. This email is from Scott, and Scott wrote Hi your June first, twenty twenty six episode The Literary Life of Villa Rosebroo repeats a mistake in reference removed from Wikipedia entries for My Antonia and Villa Roseboro on June twenty eighth, twenty twenty six, based on new research described in Who's Antonia.

33:20 AI attempts to reconceive Jim Burden, published in the Spring twenty twenty six edition of The Willa Cather Review. So the email then quotes from the episode that is being corrected here, which is the part where we talked about Willa Cather getting rejected a bunch of times when she tried to get My Antonia published, and then Villa Roseboro reading it and saying that it needed to be rewritten in the point of view of Jim Burden. The email continues, my Antonia was never offered to let alone rejected by any publishers. Cather's regular publisher, Hutton Mifflin. Did it sight unseen when she first offered it to them. The remainder of the anecdote referenced is equally mistaken. Whose Antonia uses

34:08 original source material to explain where it originated, why it is incorrect, and to whom it really refers. Next in this email, there is a link to the full edition to this paper at the Willicather Review, which is behind a membership firewall for a year, an abstract in excerpts and the work sided of this paper at Academia dot edu, and then a YouTube video of the presentation of this paper, which was at the June twenty, twenty sixth seventy first Annual Willicather Spring Conference. And then Scott continues, as you will see you are not the first to be misled.

34:48 Attempts are ongoing to rebut the references to the Errant Roseboro anecdote where it has appeared, including an Oxford, Cambridge American Literature teacher's Guide. If you have any questions or additional information, please do not hesitate to ask regards Scott So. Scott is the author of this paper. Thank you so much Scott for sending this. This is not information that existed when we did the episode, because we recorded it on something like May fifteenth, and I did want to clarify.

35:22 I don't know if the reference to it being removed from Wikipedia entries is a suggestion that we might have used those entries to research the show. We do not research the show using Wikipedia. I was very curious, though I looked back at my resources that were part of the episode, and I did not go through all of them, but this little anecdote was in three papers by two different authors. At least that's where I stopped looking. And then I looked at the Wikipedia edit history, and it appears that Wikipedia's original source for this information is two of the papers that were part of my research. So like Wikipedia and I used the same resources for this.

36:14 If this paper had happened, or if this episode had happened two months later, this might have been something I would have found and I could have said, this is a thing that has been repeated so many times and we've just learned that it's wrong. But time did not align for that to happen. No, it happens so often the second we publish a thing, the universe goes, hey, we're going to do something here that's going to make this, by the way, item you wished you had done two months later, it just happens. Yeah, I know, you didn't expect new information about someone when one of the things that we talked about is there being only one biography that was six hundred or something pages long, and yeah, doesn't exist in many collections. So anyway, thank you again,

37:00 and Scott for sending this. We do not often get emails from folks about the research that they have done that has related to the show, but when it does happen, I'm always appreciative, also appreciative to have something corrected that you know we would have avoided had it been possible, hopefully, if you would like to send us a note or at History Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com, and if you want to see the source lists for all of our episodes, including the source list of the Villa Roseboro episode that is at our website which is missed Inhistory dot com.

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