The Literary Life of Viola Roseboro'

0:01 Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

0:12 Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracey V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fryn. When I was working on our episode about Elizabeth Bisland back in March, I stumbled across the name Vila Roseboro, and that last name was spelled ro se bo R with an apostrophe at the end and then nothing after the apostrophe. That's not something that happens in English language names very much, unless it's a name that ends in an S, and that apostrophe is making it possessive. So I wondered who this person was and why her name was spelled that way, and my cursory look into it landed her on the shortlist. Villa Roseboro is not well known today, but she played a big behind the scenes role in the careers of a lot of American writers in the late nineteenth and early

1:03 twentieth centuries, including several writers who continued to be staples in English and English literature classes in the United States. By extension, she helped shape what is thought of as the American literary canon. Viola Roseboro was born on December third, eighteen fifty seven in Pulaski, Tennessee. That's in the south central part of the state, roughly fifteen miles from the border with Alabama. Pulaski is named for Casimir Pulaski, a Polish soldier who fought in the American Revolutionary War. Tracy has had him on her shortlist for quite a while.

1:41 Viola was the only surviving child of the Reverend Samuel Reid Roseboro known as Reed, and Martha Collier Roseboro, who after their marriage, insisted that she was Missus Martha Coliar Roseboro, not Missus Samuel Reid Roseboro. Yeah. I also read an account that said that she refused to have the part about obey in their marriage vows. She seems like she had very solid opinions. The Roseboros were abolitionists, and that put them at odds with a lot of their neighbors.

2:14 Pulaski is also where the original Ku Klux Klan was founded, and it put them at odds with some of their family members. This was a factor and their moving to Missouri when Viola was only a baby. From there, they moved to Illinois, and that's where they were when the Civil War started. When Viola was four, Viola's father became a chaplain in an Illinois regiment of the US Army, and his parents disowned him for that. While Reid was in the army, Martha supported herself and her daughter by teaching sewing and working at a hotel.

2:48 The Civil War ended when Viola was seven, Martha took her back to Tennessee and visited her family while they waited for Reed to be discharged from the army. He joined her in Tennessee, but before more long they went back to Missouri after he got a position as a minister at a Congregationalist church there After they moved, Martha invested some of the money that she had saved during the war in a small farm. When that farm started to struggle, that took the family finances with it, and she took Fila to Tennessee to get the advice of her brother, Arthur Saint Clair Collier. He was a Democrat and had been a slaveholder before the Civil War, and she found him embroiled in an effort to unseat Augustus E.

3:33 Alden, who was the radical Republican mayor of Nashville. Martha and her brother were really on opposite sides politically, and he seems to have thought that associating with his abolitionist's sister would damage his reputation and any attempt that he might make to run for office. So Martha wound up going back to Missouri without getting a lot of help from him. Back in Missouri, Reed had some kind oft with some of the more influential members of his church congregation, and by the time Martha returned, it had started to seem like they would need to move again. Martha really loved the area of Tennessee where she had grown up and thought she had gotten an exceptional education there and that's what she wanted for her daughter. So when she

4:20 was offered a job at a school in Shelbyville, she went with Viola while Reid stayed behind in Missouri. But this didn't last long either. While Martha was waiting for the school year to start, she talked about a plan to spend her free time teaching black children to read. That was something else that threatened her brother's political aspirations.

4:42 Then she started trying to integrate the schools in Shelbyville, and that led to her being branded Meddlesome Mattie. She wound up taking Viola back to Missouri, but the family was not reunited there for very long. Reed went to work in Nevada and then to California. Several years passed, and in eighteen seventy four, when Viola was sixteen, her mother took her back to Tennessee again so she could attend Fairmount College, which is a private women's college. Her father eventually got a job at a church in Tennessee, although not close enough to the college for them to all live together. While she was in college, Fiola developed an interest in performing, starting out with giving dramatic readings.

5:28 A write up in the Winchester, Tennessee Home Journal describes a night of entertainment that was arranged for Carrick Academy, which was a boys' school, that rite up ends quote we regret not getting there in time to hear the beautiful and intelligent Miss Roseboro, who never fails to deserve and illicit applause. By late eighteen seventy eight, Viola had gone beyond doing recitations at schools and was performing in public, including traveling to other states to do so. Eventually, she rolled in theater classes in Cincinnati, Ohio, when it quickly became clear that her parents did not have the money to pay for these classes, she started writing articles for her uncle's newspaper, The Daily American, which was headquartered in Nashville.

6:15 She made her acting debut, now in a staged play rather than a recitation or reading, in Nashville in May of eighteen seventy nine. Over the next few years, Roseboro tried to earn a living by both freelance writing and performing. Her parents really did not approve of this, especially the performing part, and it raised some questions among her father's church congregations. They did not think this was an appropriate career path for their minister's daughter. At the same time, her father was always on the lookout for positions at churches that would allow them to be closer to her, so Martha continued to move around with him as he tried to just stay near their daughter. Allegedly, this combined career of writing and performing is where Roseborow's unusual name

7:05 spelling came from. She used the name Roseboro with the ending ough for the stage, while the shorter Roseboro ending in the o Apostrophe was for her published work.

7:17 It does seem like later in her life she insisted on that apostrophe spelling, but her name appears with and without those last three letters in various publications and documents across the whole course.

7:29 Of her life.

7:31 Sometimes there's an assumption that the original spelling of her name was the longer one, but her father's name also appears as Roseboro minus that ugh at the end and with no final apostrophe, and a lot of official records, including his marriage license and his entry in the death index from the New York State Department of Health. Vila and her parents are all buried at Clifton Springs Village Cemetery in New York, and their markers all ye she used that same shorter spelling, although with no apostrophe, but it's hard to draw a conclusion from that since we don't really know who made the arrangements for those engravings on their markers.

8:12 To return to Viola for a while, she moved to Nashville to work for her uncle's newspaper. She was also in theatrical touring companies, with starring roles in at least two melodramas, one called Two Orphans, which was set during the French Revolution, and another called The Lights of London.

8:31 In eighteen eighty two, Roseboro moved to New York City, and she continued to divide her time between writing and performing. But in eighteen eighty seven, when she was about thirty, she developed pneumonia. There are references to Roseboro being sick a lot in her own letters and in the accounts of people who knew her, and she also had trouble with her eyesight. This bout of pneumonia put an end to her time on stage, possibly because it affected her voice.

8:58 From this point on, Deola Roseborow's career was a literary one. We'll talk more about that after a sponsor break.

9:15 From eighteen eighty seven until about eighteen ninety three, Villa Roseboro made a living as a freelance writer, selling stories and essays to publications like The Cosmopolitan and The Century Magazine. She also did some of the kind of stunt journalism that we talked about in our episode on Elizabeth Bisland and past hosts episode on Nellie Bly. For example, she published an article in the New York World on December eleventh, eighteen eighty seven, titled Begging as an Avocation. An adventurous woman goes out asking for alms in the street. It's probably unsurprising based on that title that this article came off as cluelessly insensitive. It starts with a discuss of how hard it is to find appropriately ragged clothes to

10:03 pretend to be a beggar. Later on, she talks about how every time anyone gave her anything, she would immediately jam it into her pocket, and quote to possess a pocket seemed indicative of fraud. A couple of people were kind to her, but many just ignored her, and only women seemed to be willing to give her money. She wound up with sixty three cents. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what she did with that money, because the one scan I was able to find of this article is completely illegible at the bottom. So she wrote that she was going to give this money to charity, but then the text becomes completely unreadable as she's sort of overthinking whether any of the people who gave it to her might be opposed to churches, or might be Protestant or Catholic,

10:52 or might just hate institutional charities. Rosebrow's first book, a collection of stories called Old Ways and New came out in eighteen ninety two, and it included work that had originally been published in Century magazine.

11:06 She dedicated this book to her mother, quote my earliest and still my best companion in the blessed world of letters. This was in spite of increasing tension between the two women. They were both proud and stubborn.

11:21 Viola has been described as arrogant, and Martha was apparently prone to clipping out Viola's published articles, writing corrections on them, and then sending those corrections to her. Martha Roseborow died of cancer the year after the book came out and read. Roseborrow died in eighteen ninety two. By that point, Samuel Sidney McClure had hired Rosebrow as a reader. That happened in eighteen ninety three. This started with a writing contest.

11:50 McClure realized he had way too many manuscripts from those contest entries for him to read just by himself, and he brought Roseburrow on because he already knew her. From there, she started working for McClure's magazine and for his other publishing ventures. McClure wrote of her in his autobiography, quote, Miss Roseborow was of great service to the magazine in discovering promising material by unknown writers. She had a singularly open mind toward the manuscript bag, a natural attitude towards stories, which is rare in professional readers, who, like everybody else in time, become the victims of their own tastes and their own successes, and are therefore always hunting for the thing they themselves like best, instead of for the thing

12:37 that new writers are writing best. Miss Roseborow seized upon the early stories of O Henry, Jack London, Rex Beach, Myra Kelly, and the Emmy lu Stories when their writers were unknown, with as much shortness and conviction as if she had known what the end was to be in each case, and exactly how popular each of these writers was to become. Ida Tarbell's work at McClure's magazine overlapped with Roseborow's. We talked about Tarbell and her expozea Standard Oil, which was published in McClure's in a two part episode in November of twenty twenty one. Tarbell and Roseborow were friends, and Tarbell had similar things to say about her in her own autobiography. Quote by good fortune McClure's in this

13:26 period happened on a reader of real genius. Viola Roseboro, the only born reader I have ever known. I found her in the office after one of my frequent jaunts after material. It was as a talker that I first learned to admire and love her. Her judgments were unfettered, her emotions strong and warm, her expressions free, glowing, stirring, and she loved to talk, though only when she felt sympathy and understanding. She loved to share books, of which she read many, particularly in the biographical field. She wanted none the best, no imitation, no mere fact finding. Her eagerness to let no good things slip. Her consciousness of the all too little time a human being has in this world to explore its riches, made her rigid in

14:13 her choice, an unsleeping eagerness to find talent and give it a chance. And secondarily, she said to enrich the magazine made every day's work with the unsifted manuscripts and adventure. If she found exceptional merit that was also suited to McClure's, she might weep with excitement. And she stood to it till faith grew in those less sure of the untried.

14:38 We've talked about McClure, and that magazine more in the context of muckraking journalism, but the magazine also developed a reputation for publishing very high quality fiction, and a.

14:49 Lot of that credit goes to Roseboro.

14:52 She was the first person to read every fiction manuscript that arrived at the magazine. Her cultivating of unknown talent included people like William Sidney Porter, who published most of his work under the pen name O.

15:05 Henry.

15:06 Roseborrow started corresponding with Porter while he was in prison for embezzlement and offered him or feedback over the course of about two years. Finally, she purchased his story Whistling Dick's Christmas Stocking in eighteen ninety nine, and that was the first story that he ever published under that pen name.

15:24 We did an episode on Oh Henry that came out on December twenty first of twenty twenty. According to Ida Tarbell, when Rosebrow first read a submission from Booth Tarkington, she went into S. S. McClure's office in tears, exclaiming, quote, here is a serial sent by God Almighty for McClure's magazine.

15:44 That serial was Tarkington's first novel, The Gentleman from Indiana, which was published starting in May of eighteen ninety nine. The Gentleman from Indiana was later published as a book and became a best seller for McClure and Tarkington went on to be one of only four writers to earn the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction twice. The other three in that group are William Faugner Near Dear to My Heart, John Updike, and Colson Whitehead. A lot of sources credit Rosebrow with discovering Jack London, who's most well known for books like Call of the Wild and White Fang in the short story to Build a Fire.

16:20 Rosebrow did accept some of his.

16:23 Early stories for McClure's and McClure commissioned London's first novel, A Daughter of the Snows, but Jack London's work was already appearing in other publications, including Overland Monthly, which published really a pile of his stories before anything appeared in McClure's s s. McClure's interest in Jack London started after he read a piece that had been published in the Atlantic Monthly, and that was a piece that Roseboro had read and rejected. She had also rejected other early submissions of London's although some of those rejections also included her very thoughtful feedback and advice about how to improve the stories structurally. Mcluur's magazine did play a role in London's early career, and an important role, but it just it

17:12 doesn't seem like Roseberg really pulled him out of the slush pile, even though McClure himself made it seem that way in his autobiography. Roseburrow definitely played a role in the literary career of Willa Cather. McClure published Cather's first volume of short stories, The Troll Garden, in nineteen oh five, and Rosebrow's influence included helping to decide which stories to include.

17:37 Later on, Cather went through rounds of rejections on her nineteen eighteen novel My Antonia. She finally sent it to Rosebrow, who read it and told her she'd written the whole thing through the point of view of the wrong character, that it needed to come from the perspective of Jim Burden. Cather rewrote it, and today My Antonia is considered to be her first masterpiece. Later on, she earned a Pulitzer Prize for her novel One of Ours, Roseburrow was sixteen years older than Cather and had been working for McClure's magazine for more than a decade when Cathere was hired for a staff position in nineteen oh six. A lot of accounts give Rosebrow a lot of the credit for this hiring decision. At first, Cather seems to have really

18:23 admired and respected Roseburrow as somebody with talent and experience and wisdom, but that shifted somewhat as they worked together at the magazine. Roseborrow had a reputation for being generous and kind, but she could also be extremely blunt with her feedback. As paraphrased by a friend, she told Cather that she was quote pouring out one dead, pretentious story after another that nobody could read, and she got published only because mister McClure knew she had genius. Roseburrow also advised Cather to quote write something she had some feeling about.

19:01 When Cather became managing editor of mclure's magazine, Rosebrough suspected that she was publishing her own work without running it by anybody else except maybe McClure himself. They didn't become enemies by any means their discussions around by Antonio were a decade after this, but it definitely became less of a mentor mentee relationship.

19:24 Nineteen oh six was a tempestuous year to be working at McClure's. About a month after cather started, most of the staff quit. They were dissatisfied with McClure's business and editorial decisions, and with his ongoing womanizing, including having affairs with young women whose work he then published.

19:45 This included his.

19:46 Taking a trip across the Atlantic with both his wife, Hattie and one of the other women on board, and Ida Tarbell, who was friends with Hattie. Cathere remained at the magazine after this mass exodus at McClure. She had moved to New York to take the job, and as a newcomer she probably didn't have the same emotional involvement in the situation as a lot of the people who had.

20:10 Been there longer.

20:12 She publicly supported McClure and dismissed the various allegations of womanizing, and Roseboro stayed as well. This may have been partly due to a sense of loyalty to McClure and to the magazine where she had worked.

20:25 So many years.

20:27 But it's also possible that she was just shielded from a lot of that drama because she was almost never in the office. She would have manuscripts delivered to her at her apartment in New York, or during the summers, to her cottage on the coast of Massachusetts or Connecticut. Then she'd take the manuscripts outside and she would read them there, which sounds like a pretty dreamy working scenario.

20:49 When she was in New York, she was particularly fond of working from Madison Square Park. If she needed to have a face to face meeting with someone, she would usually meet them there or at her home.

21:00 Villa Roseborow. Was quite a character, which we will talk about more after a sponsor break. Bila Roseboro certainly was not unique for preferring to be outside on a park bench rather than cooped up in an office all day. What was fairly unique was that she actually made it work. She relentlessly tried to live her own way, and she's been described as a female bachelor. She never married, and if she ever had a romantic relationship with anyone, it's not mentioned in anybody's surviving writing, at least not that I could find. She did seem to like the idea of having a child, though, or more specifically, a son.

21:49 While she was still acting, she and one of her castmates took in a boy who had run away, and later in her life there were young men that she would describe as godsons or as almost like her adopted sons.

22:02 For a while, Rosebrow did well enough financially that she was able to afford her apartment in New York and at least one cottage near the ocean. She also traveled around the United States, and she made a series of trips to Europe. But while she was making her own life and having a career, she was opposed to the suffrage movement. She viewed feminists with suspicion. This was another difference between her and her mother, who was a passionate advocate for women's rights. Roseburrow smoked constantly, swore, and refused to wear a corset. She also loved Shakespeare and went to every play that she could. She carried around a gin bottle with the label still on it, which she filled with water so that she could have a drink

22:45 whenever she got thirsty. This seems to have been about not just shocking people by appearing to drink gin out in public in the middle of the day, just spontaneously, but also because she was really fixated on staying well highed rated. She was also into yoga and eating raw foods, although that last part might have been mostly because she hated to cook, not for any philosophical reason other than the hatred of cooking. Rosebrow's friends called her vr, and her colleagues at McClure's called her Rosie. In both circles, she had a reputation for both talking very quickly and for being a witty and absorbing conversationalist. S. S. McClure said of her quote, when George Meredith talked, the air was full of flaming swords. When Robert Lewis Stevenson talked,

23:38 it was like the play of the Aurora borealis. But I can't find any expression to describe that woman's talk.

23:44 It is too varied.

23:47 He also called her the greatest conversationalist of her time.

23:51 One friend is quoted as saying, quote, anybody who does not acknowledge that something is happening when Viola Rosebrow is talking is stupid. Her friend Francis Perkins said of her quote of course, I remember her vividly, her conversation, her attitudes, her courage. Miss Rosebrow was essentially an expressive person. She couldn't bear to enjoy things alone. And that is why she would ask me to go along with her, because she said, I like to go with you because you enjoy having.

24:22 Me talk about it.

24:25 Another of Rosebrow's contradictions is that while she was friends with Francis Perkins, who was a labor advocate and Secretary of Labor under President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Rosebrow was opposed to social reform, and she denounced Roosevelt's New Deal. Rosebrow's conversations that she was famous for were not necessarily nice.

24:48 A friend once said, she characterized the greatest defect of modern civilization as quote the absence of any place where one could adequately insult people. Either you were in the relationationship of guest and hostess, or you were both guests of someone else. And when you chanced upon each other at the Grand Central Station, there was no time for you were dashing for a train. For her own part, Rosebroow liked to say, quote, when conversation grows dull, I take charge of it.

25:18 To return to her career.

25:19 Rosebro wrote a novel called The Joyous Heart, which was published by McClure Phillipson Company in nineteen oh three. McMillan published her short story collection Players and Vagabonds the following year, and she continued to work for SS McClure until nineteen eleven, when he lost control of McClure's magazine. She left the magazine at that point. Although her work had been focused on the magazine's fiction, she had also convinced McClure to publish a set of essays by her friend John LeFarge, an artist who worked in a range of media, including stained glass. His work at Boston's Trinity Church came up in our episode on the history of spray paint last August.

26:02 In addition to.

26:03 Freelancing, Roseborrow supported herself as a writer's consultant, kind of like an editor, offering writers feedback on their work and how to get it published. Two years after Rosebrow left McClure's rival magazine, Colliers started running ads announcing that they had a new price of only five cents a copy, down from ten. They had a new publishing day of Tuesday rather than Thursday, a new distribution method being that people could buy it at newsstands rather than having to subscribe and a quote new story editor Colliers has engaged Miss Viola Roseboro, whose ability to choose stories needs no mention to the story loving public.

26:47 Roseburrow's final book, Storms of Youth, was published by Scribner's in nineteen twenty. In nineteen twenty one, McClure returned to his magazine and Roseborow went back to work at it as well. Rosebrow seems to have had a gift for recognizing and nurturing the talent of writers. She did not have the same ability with money. She had a series of financial difficulties and lost her summer cottages and her ability to travel abroad. Things became increasingly difficult until nineteen twenty eight when one of her former clients, Elizabeth M. Chamberlain, died and left Roseborrow some money. This got Roseborow back on stable financial footing, and she did take at least two more trips to Europe after this. In the early

27:33 nineteen forties, Roseborow had a falling out with Willa Cather. Cather asked Roseborrow to return all of her letters, and Rosebrow seems to have thought that Catherine was trying to erase all evidence of her influence on Cather's work and career. This was not just about Roseburrow's correspondence, though, in nineteen forty three, Cather wrote a will specifying that her letters never be published in whole or in part. This applied to all of her correspondents, not just her correspondence with Roseboro.

28:06 She was kind of gathering things up to protect them. Catherine died in nineteen forty seven, and that request was honored until twenty eleven, when the terms of her will expired. Viola Roseboro spent the last years of her life living alone in Newdorp, Staten Island. In addition to her lifelong poor vision, she lost much of her hearing, and she developed arthritis in her hands, which she attributed to years spent rewriting people's work. She died on January twenty ninth, nineteen forty five, at the age of eighty seven, after an illness of a few months. In the words of a review of the one book length biography ever written of her, quote, she died in poverty, but not in want, because many of her old friends saw to that. She

28:54 had allegedly been working on a memoir called let Me Tell You, which she does not seem to have and no known manuscript of it has survived. It is possible but unclear, that she may have converted to Catholicism during her last days. She had a fascination with Catholicism, and at various points after the nineteen ten death of John LeFarge, she reportedly said that if he had been alive, she would have allowed him to convert her. She also paid very close attention to how Willa Cather's nineteen twenty seven novel Death Comes for the Archbishop was received by Catholics.

29:33 In the last days of Risboro's life, she refused to talk to the Protestant clergy who came to visit her, but she had multiple visits from her maid's priest. There is also some speculation that she may have been the inspiration for the character of Myrah Henshaw in Willa Cather's nineteen twenty six My Mortal Enemy, but that's not known for sure, and there are a lot of other people who might have possibly been the inspiration for it.

29:59 Yeah, yeah, entirely possible. Don't fully know.

30:05 Uh.

30:05 I find her fascinating though, too, and I also feel like I have big gaps in my understanding of her, which we'll talk about on Friday. Do you also have some listener mail for us? I do also have listener mail. It is from Tanya, and Tanya wrote, Hi, Holly and Tracy. I was just listening to your episode about the color blue, and it reminded me that I recently watched someone making blue dye from Woade. It was in an episode of Secrets of the Castle, of video series featuring Ruth Goodman, among other historians and archaeologists. Ruth is actually featured in a whole series of videos exploring life in various time periods.

30:45 I think they would be right up your alley. My only complaint is that they are British and the DVDs do not typically play in American DVD players anyway. In Secrets of the Castle, they are living and working in the Gelong Castle project in France. I'm just gonna say I'm sorry if I said that wrong. I forgot there was French in here, and I didn't look it up before I started reading this email. They're building a castle using thirteenth century techniques. I seem to remember that a large amount of old urine was also used when dying fabrics using wode based dye. Did you uncover any mention of this in your research? I enjoy your show as much as I enjoy Ruth Goodman's history series. That significant

31:24 since I bought a new DVD player just to watch my British DVDs on keep up the great work for ped tax. I am attaching photos of my roosters, Barnaby the Colorful one and Rusty the Golden one. I raised them along with seven hens from eggs that I incubated last spring. And then that was from Tanya. So Tanya, I love that somebody has sent us rooster pictures.

31:50 I do two.

31:50 I have questions about the roosters. Yeah, only because growing up on a far, my experience with roosters was not cool. So if her roosters are sweet, because ours were not?

32:05 What a good question? I think.

32:08 What I know of chickens, and broadly including roosters, is that they can be very mean to one another as they establish a hierarchy out in the out in the chicken yard. Oh yeah, no, we had a rooster growing up that we had, you know, several acres of land and a lot of it was woody, and if you were walking along, the rooster would go and hide in bushes and wait for you to pass, and then it would come out talon's up like to attack you. Oh no, my rooster experiences are not cool. I think they're so beautiful, but I'm curious anytime I talk to somebody that has roosters of their own, what they're like behaviorally. A lot of cities that allow like urban chicken coops, explicitly don't allow roosters correct because of their supposedly being noisy. Supposed Oh,

33:07 I mean, they do tend to crow, but the chickens also make noise, so there's And also I would say I have neighbors whose barking dogs are at least as loud as a rooster could hypothetically be. Anyway, I wanted to read this email number one because the rooster pictures, that's great. But then also number two is that Secrets of the Castle and these other history shows that Ruth Goodman was on. They were some of my early early COVID like Comfort Binge Watch, and they are these sort of living history shows in which Ruth Goodman and usually there was like another historian and archaeologist. They would go live in the manner of a farmer from a specific time period, and then this one where they go to the castle in frame. I don't remember anything about the

34:04 dying of fabric in this particular show. It would not at all surprise me that large amounts of old urine were used for it, because large amounts of old urine have been used for a lot of things historically, including a number of things involving textiles and dies and.

34:26 Fabric scent paper.

34:28 I have definitely heard of it being used as a fixative, so it's not the pigment. It's like the same way there are ammonial washes that people will do on dye processes now that are not urine based. So it makes sense because there's a high amount of ammonia in urine. So yeah, yeah, so yeah. I think very fondly of Ruth Goodman and those TV shows. I watched them on streaming services. I do not have a DVD player, specially bought to play British DVDs. I also have really enjoyed the similar shows that have played on PBS with similar setups in the United States, although a lot of those were not necessarily a historian doing those things, but you know, regular people to pretend to live in whatever historical setting.

35:18 I find those to be fun. So thank you so much for this email and these pictures.

35:23 Tanya.

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