Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 2 w/Jenn

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everybody. [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to another episode of All To Call. [SPEAKER_00]: I am your host, Tane, here to talk about a couple of therapy season five episode two. [SPEAKER_00]: Here with me, as always, when he comes to couples therapy, is Jen, hi, Jen, how are you? [SPEAKER_01]: I am up and early and ready to go this morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to everybody from Indonesia, from Bali. [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get this day started right. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, as always, you know, since Jen is still over in the other continent of Asia, we have like a 12 hours right difference between us. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we're making a work, making a work.

[SPEAKER_00]: But we got a cold open with this episode, starting with C&A and Chris. [SPEAKER_00]: If you recall, Chris is the one who looks like a hell's angel. [SPEAKER_00]: He's tattooed from head literally to toe. [SPEAKER_00]: And his wife is, how do I describe her? [SPEAKER_00]: The high-strong wife who seems checked out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just like, you have a husband, but I don't even recognize that he's there. [SPEAKER_00]: That, that's them. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, we get a cold open new Chris telling owner that he me, oh, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I, I, I was a discreet. [SPEAKER_01]: There we go. [SPEAKER_01]: That was Jason.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jason. [SPEAKER_01]: That was Jason. [SPEAKER_01]: Still learning the couples guys. [SPEAKER_01]: So so sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: This couple is the couple that we're 13 years married. [SPEAKER_00]: Chris cheated on Sienna and, and, and, and, and, and, and. [SPEAKER_00]: they were working through it.

[SPEAKER_00]: He is the one who paid people to cuddle and that led to cheating. [SPEAKER_00]: So, so sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a different option. [SPEAKER_00]: We're back on track. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: She's the one that I so really call Rachel Doza. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: So, yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are times of charm. [SPEAKER_00]: We get a cold open with Chris telling Orna that he has an idea why he betrayed Sienna. [SPEAKER_00]: But for to make sense, he must see here more about his childhood. [SPEAKER_00]: And I cackled because Janet mentioned an episode one how he just seems to be so eager to talk about his childhood.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this kid. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, Anna says like, yes, I didn't want to ask immediately like I just wanted to spend more time with you guys just to know how to approach that and Chris is like, I'm very open like you listen, we can dive in if she wants. [SPEAKER_00]: And Anna says, yes, I'm sure you are very open, but more this is usually to dive right in and it just felt like Chris wants to control the narrative.

[SPEAKER_00]: Chris wants to control this bus called therapy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Which I think a lot of people do, they get in there and they're like, no, you know, this person is not going to tell me anything that I don't already know. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he gives me like, I don't remember that guy's name.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was one couple. [SPEAKER_01]: And I see him on clips a lot on TikTok. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he was just a jerk. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was the one that always like honored be like, oh, you sound kind of negative right now. [SPEAKER_01]: He's all know I don't remember his name. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so many seasons that you could apply to any of them, so so most recent for four for me would be like Boris, but yeah, so he said that it made him scared because he when his mom passed, he had a nightmare for two years that she was coming for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: and see Anna turns to him because I saw it. [SPEAKER_00]: I saw that he was having like actual physical reaction. [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure if they were going to talk about it, but see Anna is like, I can see they have him in a physical reaction like your veins are popping, your turning very red.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, well, yeah, maybe that's why I want to talk about it to kind of like exercise it from myself and purge myself of it. [SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: I hope I'm not being harsh. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you think, but something about all of this came off as disingenuous to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It felt, it was very much a departure from last week, where last week's Anna, she was kind of calm and then once the infidelity came out, she had a really strong reaction to it and then she went back to being super attentive and super sweet and all of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're read on that last week was maybe [SPEAKER_01]: they're both dissociated.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, it just it felt weird to me to be like, how am I taking care of you when I'm hurt, too? [SPEAKER_01]: But she seemed to be on top of it and attentive to his feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: So, which makes me more annoyed at him for being [SPEAKER_01]: you know, not equally attentive back to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but what do you do you agree? [SPEAKER_00]: I just agree with my feeling of him being disingenuous? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think he's doing this, I think he wants to be the center of the show. [SPEAKER_01]: I think he wants to be the pay attention to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Like my stuff is bigger than your stuff, and this is just the the Chris show.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, I agree on that. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so then we see Orna telling Virginia about, for those who don't know who are new to the show, Virginia is the person she bounces things of, it's not her peer, but I think, would you say Virginia ranks higher? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just heard therapist.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I don't know if she's a therapist or maybe like a mentor because I think sometimes, you know, the idea that a therapist knows everything. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not true, so I like that they have Virginia there to show that like Orna is not perfect and she's got blind spots and she's got I think she's got to work off of and so She's not her boss, but I guess I would call her a mentor where she gets stuck on things and she's like I'm not sure if I'm doing this right and Virginia gives her that clarification which I love [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so she's bouncing things off her and telling her about Chris's eagerness to talk about his childhood.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she says that she wants to know him better and actually wants him in the present first before he goes back to his childhood. [SPEAKER_00]: Virginia says she agrees that it would be too soon and too easy and it wouldn't be right if they go straight to their childhood. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also like [SPEAKER_00]: what we were talking about last episode where it's like the new, nothing new world because the world is kind of being the same, but we as a collective as humans, the world has gone through a very quick transition or change and now we're in a world where there's a lot of therapy speak.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Chris has probably heard a lot of like everything stems from your childhood, the childhood is because of this and he's trying to like fast track that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also his cover. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, I can't possibly be a terrible person just because I'm a terrible person.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason for it. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is based on my childhood. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not just that I'm a jerk who was upset that the woman that paid so much attention to me went back to work. [SPEAKER_01]: And now I need attention. [SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't be that simple.

[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be something rooted in something bigger. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because remember last episode, he said, is it true? [SPEAKER_00]: Am I really a sociopath? [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, your wife calls you, what is it? [SPEAKER_00]: Demonshark, guys? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think something's good. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So we get a glimpse into their home life. [SPEAKER_00]: We see their three kids. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why in my brain there were little kids, but their first kid their son seems to be like at the very least 12 or 13 years married and they got pregnant six months after.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that tracks. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So Anna shows that, you know, they came in with a recent discovery that he had multiple paid coming sessions, which answers the question that I had last week, because I was like, was he an employee or the employee or like, was he paying what was happening?

[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: He was the one that ain't people for cuddling sessions. [SPEAKER_00]: And Virginia is like, well, if he loves her so much and says like he's drawing a blank as to why he did something this enormous, it's quite unconvincing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, yes, Virginia, I am with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: This don't make no sense. [SPEAKER_00]: So, owner asked them, you know, can we talk about the background story? [SPEAKER_00]: We're back to, um, CNR and Chris, um, the background story of the betrayals. [SPEAKER_00]: And I found that interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, my first thought is to say, the cheating, the infidelity, like, but the word, the use of the word betrayals is, it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why but it is. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe, you know, I think Orna's good at, like, let me match your language, you know, because Chris uses big languages, big words, I think the one that stuck to me last week was annihilate when he talked about I'm annihilating CNS so maybe she's finding she's got to use bigger words, she can't say in fidelity sounds too soft.

[SPEAKER_01]: but betrayal which is really how seeing as we're saving it sounds real. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think maybe using a language that mirrors the situation and mirrors a language that Chris can understand, feels feels good, feels comfortable. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So he says that he was trying to create a situation where they like to, that that will be they is the cutlers, where they like them, and they thought he was a good person, and thought that he was interesting, and Sienna's like, yeah, sure, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then I saw pictures of all the women that you colored with, and there were young, and there were a hot, and there were big breasted women, just 22 to 30. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, she's 42, she kind of feels old. [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't say anything reassuring, anything countering or saying like, you know, like, you look gray, like it's not about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just, you know, let's go with the story he's crafting. [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted them to think I was good or whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: This man just says, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: In theory, I think we talked last week about, you know, what would you do? [SPEAKER_01]: How would you feel if your partner wanted to travel without you?

[SPEAKER_01]: So my question to you is, how would you feel if your husband's like, hey, babe, I'm gonna use some of our shared resources to pay and cuddle with some other women. [SPEAKER_01]: You cool? [SPEAKER_01]: But how did that happen to me? [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he didn't tell her that's part of the issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're going to get into the conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: But he didn't tell her. [SPEAKER_00]: She just found out because I think Orna says there was a recent discovery that, you know, he did that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just, because I don't know, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I would know what to say.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, oh, if you need a hug or you need to cuddle, [SPEAKER_00]: Come on down, my arms are open. [SPEAKER_00]: So what makes this so strange is the fact that he doesn't have a wife that resents him. [SPEAKER_00]: He has a wife that loves him so much in spite of himself. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's so puzzling, but we'll get there.

[SPEAKER_00]: He says that he didn't go into it to engage in something sexual, but when it was offered, he said, all right, and I'm like, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: that this was going to be the end game eventually. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, places where you go get a massage and someone's like, you know, just tell them, you are tense down there and they'll know what to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: He had to have had a recommendation or something, but this was always end game for him. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to chase it. [SPEAKER_00]: But if it does, then what was the... [SPEAKER_00]: girl of being puddled. [SPEAKER_00]: I forget him saying he wants to feel like a good guy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what that is. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, and yeah, it's a slippery slope, but I can't imagine, and again, I live in Asia, and there's a ton of massage stops here, and you can clearly tell which ones are like, oh, we're here to massage you, and which ones are like, we're here to massage you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if she's wearing high heels, she's probably not there, and she just be a train masseuse. [SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know, [SPEAKER_01]: The women he was picking were very specific. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, it's not like I just wanted to feel safe or I'm looking for something to fill whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is definitely like a, oops, I hired a bikini person to clean my pool and oh, so weird that that happened. [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels like you put yourself in a situation where, yeah, it opens too many doors there, sir. [SPEAKER_00]: I was laughing, I was like the beginning of a porno.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks. [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks. [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks. [SPEAKER_00]: Hello. [SPEAKER_00]: I did. [SPEAKER_00]: Just thought you were going to fix this and give me a hug. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: You just happened to be a big question. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: We're young.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're hot. [SPEAKER_00]: Who am I to say no? [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And my guess is there's a profile. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure he's. [SPEAKER_01]: Specifically selected it wasn't just like, oh, this happened to be the person I got a sign He picked these people on purpose and no offense to Miss Sienna, but she's not big chested So I think if you're going to pay for something I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's it doesn't feel good and it doesn't feel traditional like I think you could do [SPEAKER_01]: If you truly just wanted a cuddle session, there's a way to handle it that was not a hiding from your wife and be picking somebody that you would be tempted by. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about you, but I think the only way to handle it is to ask your wife to cut a way.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a hundred other things you could have done. [SPEAKER_01]: Other than this. [SPEAKER_01]: But if we're here, let's figure out how this could have worked better. [SPEAKER_01]: Sir. [SPEAKER_01]: She. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so, um, Sianna says, and sorry, I wanted to add that that's another betrayal, I guess, is the fact that he picked people.

[SPEAKER_00]: that clearly having opposite physical trait than she has. [SPEAKER_00]: And then she is. [SPEAKER_00]: So Sienna says it's concerning that he was able to put a lot of common sense aside to fulfill this or as like what do you mean? [SPEAKER_00]: And Sienna is like, a lot of a better word.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have a wife who is as open as a pair of French doors. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, okay, Sienna. [SPEAKER_00]: Like she was like, you can't do anything. [SPEAKER_00]: You can ask for anything, and it's not like it's not gonna happen. [SPEAKER_00]: And you still choose to do this. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's the other layer.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is like a, what is it? [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a shepherds by whatever? [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, let's go with the lasagna that has layers. [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many layers to this betrayal, so maybe on our is right with using the word betrayal, because it's like again, if we were at odds, like we were not, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: at the best in our marriage and more in speaking or I didn't even want you to come near me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not doesn't make it okay but I can understand that but I she thought she was happy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, she was willing to do anything for him and not just sexually just in general in life and still he wouldn't did this. [SPEAKER_00]: So then what else can she do like moving further in their marriage?

[SPEAKER_00]: How can she feel secure again? [SPEAKER_01]: And we learned from the how they met as she's not approved like as as way they went back and forth about it, but essentially their introduction was [SPEAKER_01]: something about sitting on your face or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: So she's not somebody that's not open to conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, she's so attentive to him in his feelings. [SPEAKER_01]: If he said to her, hey, babe, I want to, I don't know, cuddle with another woman. [SPEAKER_01]: I think she would have been open to that conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not she agreed, I don't think she would have clutched her pearls and tossed him out of the house.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that, that again, is part of the betrayal is that she's not [SPEAKER_01]: So, that's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, glad you worked out that out because something that struck me is at some point he did say, if I told her, I don't know why I kept it from her, but if I told her, she probably would have said, it's okay, no problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't claim to be an expert in men's psyche, but something about her being that easy going and open probably annoys him. [SPEAKER_00]: Because honestly, you can give it good. [SPEAKER_00]: You can be 100% and they will still find something that it is. [SPEAKER_00]: It's too good for him, the key needs like some challenge or something as irrational as it sounds.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that he just has a problem with why am I telling you that I want to call it like you know what if that makes you feel good and makes you happy that's fine with me something about that I think because this is him off. [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows I think you know what was that movie there was a movie with.

[SPEAKER_01]: one of the judges, the younger Ashley Judd I believe, and she was dating anyway, it doesn't matter, but the whole premise behind the movie was about men needing a new cow and that bulls get tired of mating with the old cows, they're surps. [SPEAKER_01]: It always looking for the new cow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of what this feels like. [SPEAKER_01]: She's there was nothing at least what we see so far wrong with the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: She's she's not unattractive. [SPEAKER_01]: She's not not paying attention to you. [SPEAKER_01]: She's not rich. [SPEAKER_01]: She's not Marjorie.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not combative, but he just needed something else. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm being patient that eventually he's staying on a lot of things, but he still hasn't said, what is the thing because like Virginia said, for you to do something enormous and to cheat, and it wasn't like you cheat with someone, it was a paid service, you know, that's another layer.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you did that, something drove you to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: You have to go within and figure out what it is, what is it that you feel that you were not getting? [SPEAKER_00]: from her. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm waiting for that part where she feels like everything was great, but he was still missing something and what is the thing that he thought was missing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing I thought, you know, interesting was that I thought Orna was going to ask [SPEAKER_00]: him. [SPEAKER_00]: When you tell you one of them to make you feel like you were a good person and you were interesting, we're saying I'm not making you feel like a good person. [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what it is?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or is she too good that you're like, I don't deserve her and I'm a terrible person? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just there's lots of things that are being unsaid. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, it feels like a given, like of course, when you meet somebody new, you're going to be the most interesting person, the person that you're, you know, CNN has heard your stories a hundred times.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you tell this new person a story, it's going to sound new and interesting and you're going to appear new and interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, there's always going to be a level of excitement when you're with somebody new. [SPEAKER_01]: And so this isn't unique Chris, like you didn't corner the market on this one thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what happens. [SPEAKER_00]: When you meet somebody when you step outside of your relationship is yes, initially, it's going to feel new Yeah, but it it's paid So if that's a long thing if you will someone random or whatever Yes, it's like fresh you don't have the responsibilities and everything But when it's a paid service you are paying them to find you interesting, so it's not genuine [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they don't care about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They just want to feel what they feel. [SPEAKER_00]: I just say we all have to be officers. [SPEAKER_00]: So she says that in the past, when he gets overwhelmed, he has been aggressive, and she has learned to quiet herself to not awaken the beast. [SPEAKER_00]: And she has felt that sadness for 13 years.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she feels resentment because he did her dirty and changed her. [SPEAKER_00]: to his worst nightmare by dimming her light, and she wonders what if she left that year two, year five, year eight, and then she wonders why didn't she leave because she deserves to be with someone who was nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And my two things from what she said was, I mean, last week we were trying to decide when it happened, this is what made me think that he created in year two. [SPEAKER_00]: because that happened then. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, still a little confused, because she's talking about the aggressiveness, the dead shark eyes, but I assume that happened before year two and year two as the cheating, but also I'm still a little uneasy about the way she's very calm or casual when she talks about this aggressiveness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: I just, I don't like it. [SPEAKER_00]: It just makes me very uneasy when she talks about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me say he's not being nice when he's aggressive. [SPEAKER_00]: What do we say is he punching holes in a wall? [SPEAKER_00]: Is he smashing plates? [SPEAKER_00]: Is he like, again, he said annihilate.

[SPEAKER_00]: It came from him. [SPEAKER_00]: What is a scenario? [SPEAKER_00]: It's or not going to ask them or because it's on TV. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't want to bring any risk. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, can you describe the worst of what this aggressiveness and [SPEAKER_00]: dead shark eyes and dissociating and be really mean and annihilating her.

[SPEAKER_00]: What does that look like? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't imagine what it's like to be owner in that room and probably she's thinking what you're thinking is what piece do I need to break down now? [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the what is the piece that I need to focus on right now?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you can unpack all 17 of those things all in one. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course we're not seeing we're not seeing the full hour, but [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many things to unpack and what, and unfortunately, we're victims of the edit to see where they wanna lead the story, but I would be surprised if at some point, they don't, they don't deep talk about stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so that's it for them. [SPEAKER_00]: I will take a break and we'll be right back. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we are back with Shay and Clinton, these two, man. [SPEAKER_00]: They must give Orner nightmares, like this is what this is, what this is, work that she has to do. [SPEAKER_00]: We were getting a montage of their time together.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess happy your times on vacation, doing things together, and we get for the booth pictures and just pictures over time. [SPEAKER_00]: Then they come in and we hear that they have not spoken in four days and this is the first time they are seeing each other. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just glad that you know they will shoot up for therapy even though they haven't spoken in four days.

[SPEAKER_00]: She makes sense that they had a massive argument on Friday and Orner stops to ask Clinton about it because he is so he's on the far end of the couch as far away from She is possible and he's stimming like he's looking away and he's just like fidgety and [SPEAKER_00]: he says he doesn't want to talk about it and he's so fucking tired of talking about it and he told her he would pay her.

[SPEAKER_00]: This sounds like this is calm, but I'm going to do my best to say exactly how he said he was just like, I don't want to talk about it. [SPEAKER_00]: He was so fucking tired of talking about it and I told her I would pay her. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying that to give context to detention in the room.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was pretty good. [SPEAKER_00]: That was pretty good. [SPEAKER_00]: She is like pretty damn pissed and is just trying to get her story out. [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's a hole. [SPEAKER_00]: very visibly Clinton is not with it at all. [SPEAKER_00]: And when he does talk, he is, he sounds childlike and he's kind of whining.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a good way that portrays in relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she can't speak because it's like, if you have a kid who's throwing a tantrum and you're in public, you're going to want to have to like, [SPEAKER_00]: placate the game and try to calm them down and then you know you pay attention to the baby that's crying and leave the toddler because you pay they should be okay and it's basically I think portrayal of what their relationship is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which I said it last week is just it's this caregiver. [SPEAKER_01]: situation and it's not healthy for either one of them and it's not serving either one of them in a productive way. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just everybody wants to be, they both want to be heard, they both want to feel valued and it's tough to take care of you and take care of me at the same time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so Clinton sighs and he's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: Orna says, how are you feeling sitting here? [SPEAKER_00]: He says he's anxious, he's nervous, he's angry and he's frustrated and on our ass, okay, what do you need to enter a listening movie because Shay has to get it out?

[SPEAKER_00]: Clinton says maybe water and grabs one of the Saratoba bottles of water on the table. [SPEAKER_00]: Shay is always careful with her words and it's just like seeing this very, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: Um, what's the word? [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, oh, I went blank on the word, but she's, eloquent, there you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's very eloquent and is very careful with her words. [SPEAKER_00]: Says that Clinton has had issues with their finances. [SPEAKER_00]: And she has tried to show him how to handle it better. [SPEAKER_00]: And she says that she paid off all his credit cards to start a fresh. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: Like you showed him an appointment plan or what, what, what were we saying? [SPEAKER_01]: because what also what does she do do we know yeah I don't know but I need that job because and I don't know what level of debt he had but to just pay it off again it's the you know she said last week like I'm his only resource and that's a huge thing if you're not just his emotional resource and his intimate partner but you're also his financial [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_00]: So Clinton starts shaking his head and saying half the story is missing all in the whiny voice and then he says, I paid half of that and then I lost my job a month after that and he wanted to take care of it on his own, but afterwards he rewracked the cards. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh god, this story is not ending well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, she says that they needed to get him a new bed because she's too big to sleep on the twin bed and he wanted her to spend more time in his place. [SPEAKER_00]: So he told him that if he wants to pay her back for the bed, he can put it on her account, and then he'll just pay her back little by little.

[SPEAKER_00]: Instead, my man's bought him a 60 inch TV and video game for $180, all on her credit without asking her. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if we can chuck this up to his diagnosis. [SPEAKER_01]: stealing a stealing. [SPEAKER_01]: And if I take something from you without your permission, I don't know if that's that's acceptable in a relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, he's generally pretty clear with his feelings. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would really, I kind of wish that Orna dug deep into the why this happened, but you can't. [SPEAKER_01]: There's there's too much going on between these two different ways why why he did it. [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: It would be helpful for Shay maybe because I don't know if she asked and it would be interesting to know his thought process as to why that was okay and to give him some clarity as to why that wasn't okay because I don't know if he thinks it wasn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: He did, he said, it's not okay. [SPEAKER_00]: He says he's upset because they've talked about it. [SPEAKER_00]: He said he was sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: He says in his mind, they're moving in together. [SPEAKER_00]: So he's doing it for them. [SPEAKER_00]: All he had to do was a quick phone call or a quick text.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure. [SPEAKER_00]: He says he knows it wasn't okay. [SPEAKER_00]: And Orna was like, why can't you allow room for her to be mad? [SPEAKER_00]: And she says, because I'm not allowed to express myself and Clinton loses it. [SPEAKER_00]: Cleansing is like, no, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_00]: And then he slaps his hands on his knees and owner is like, what is the issue?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really overwhelmed. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what I mean by owner has a whole new challenge because he really needs to be addressed with kid gloves. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you gonna do? [SPEAKER_00]: What are you gonna do? [SPEAKER_00]: We have to stop.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have to make sure he's okay. [SPEAKER_00]: We have to get him you know to a level ground so that they can continue with this and at this point [SPEAKER_00]: She has stopped how many times and cannot get her story out because he needs to be calm down. [SPEAKER_00]: So Anna asked like if she can guess and he's like fine and she's like does it make you feeling competent?

[SPEAKER_00]: Does it make you feel shame and he says yes and he says he doesn't always have the words all the time but he feels like he's being looked down upon like he can't take care of things. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, a little part of me was like, maybe accepting that, yes, you can't take care of things because past history has shown that is easier than trying to prove that you can't take care of things and then messing up because on the flip side, which I'm hoping Orner gets to, is like, Shay, this is kind of like, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: selfish reason, you like feeling needed.

[SPEAKER_00]: You are creating a situation where there's some situations where people keep doing things for others and it could be seen as selfless. [SPEAKER_00]: And I read somewhere that sometimes people who are like two nice, it's like a form of low self esteem. [SPEAKER_00]: And you think like if I do all these things, they'll think like I'm the nicest and they'll always want to be my orbit.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what you're creating is that people don't know who you are as a human being, they just know you as the services thing [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and my brain just went to Sienna, like you really just kind of described Sienna in her relationship with Chris, but yeah, yeah, I think they have a dynamic that and this is the interesting thing about therapy is that you can see the dynamics play out like this is what their relationship looks like outside of here, this is what their conversations look like outside of here where she is not able to she's got to.

[SPEAKER_01]: manage him before she can manage whatever the issue is. [SPEAKER_01]: But again, why do you stay? [SPEAKER_01]: What keeps you here? [SPEAKER_01]: This feels so exhausting to watch. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine how exhausting it is to kind of manage day-to-day in the relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so many levels to why she's staying or whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, we need to be with someone who you feel like, okay, we're in the same level, or I'm in the level higher, or not being with someone else who is actually capable, but then you feel like you're the less than in the relationship, you know, you know, because they don't need to be taking care of.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know what to do. [SPEAKER_00]: So, Arna says he wants to help him listen to Shea without getting triggered that Shea is talking about her feelings and you can make things better by listening at this point Shea's big mad like her face is stoned and she's just not saying anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: But she continues and she says, like, listen, he is missing the payments. [SPEAKER_00]: And when he misses the payment, she has to pay it. [SPEAKER_00]: And she's an action person over words and doing things is how she knows she's loved. [SPEAKER_00]: Or in every carefully is like, so if that's the case, and you are landing on a place where he has trouble doing that, how does that work?

[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, why do you hear, man? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, nothing is going to change, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can't, like, you can tell Clinton does love her. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't doubt that he loves her, but I do feel like in some way he is limited. [SPEAKER_00]: Things only so much he can do, like he has to be with someone who's kind of willing to be a caretaker, but not where the caretaking is.

[SPEAKER_00]: overruling the whole relationship and their just has to be managed expectations because you can't she's going into it with her brain like this is how I would do things is how on a regular level when you or with your partner you have to accept certain things because they don't do things people in general don't do things the way you would do things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in his case, he processes things differently. [SPEAKER_00]: So I just, the exchanges are high. [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think, Orner was saying without saying, like, you know that nothing is going to change. [SPEAKER_00]: I could help you, but for the most part, this is what it's going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she presents, yeah, and she presents this. [SPEAKER_01]: No, she presents that, so I don't get it. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get it. [SPEAKER_01]: You present where you are in this relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: You present that you're going to have to be the action person in every aspect of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what is this that serves you? [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope at some point, or an ass, we can find that out. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Shakespeare says to say it wasn't always like this, but then Clinton is like, no, no, please answer her question and then he starts sobbing and she's just like he's having a meltdown like oh my god, this is exhausting.

[SPEAKER_00]: He says that he doesn't like disappointing her and ordinance says like yes, but she has to have a way to say it. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but while all this is still going on, she still hands in the tissue. [SPEAKER_00]: She's still in caregiver mode, like I have to take care of him. [SPEAKER_00]: She says like she doesn't have space to express herself when she's upset and no one talks about being on the other side of dating a neurodivergent person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is true, but she went into it willingly. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like you hit it? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I keep wondering about like, they met on a dating app like what dating? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they meet up. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the thing because it's one thing if, you know, you're with your partner, they get sick and then you have to take care of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a diagnosis that can't but you knew from jump that this was always the case. [SPEAKER_00]: I still don't know how long they've been together. [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't put it up this time. [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like this, meantime's going and you chose this. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he says, I've heard her, I hear her and underway out. [SPEAKER_00]: They're studying there. [SPEAKER_00]: He asks for a hug and then he says, listen, I understand if you don't feel like one, that's okay, but I just think we should hug. [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, there is hope because he does have the [SPEAKER_01]: He can read the room like I'm not forcing you to get a hug but it will be nice right now if we could hug and she does hug him and then they hug so I don't know that was not a good the way she absolutely did not want to hug this man But it did anyway is so telling of their relationship, but there's so much that she doesn't want to do but she doesn't anyway and that's not a good foundation like that I kind of Not to be mean to say I wish she hadn't hug them but

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he wanted it so sincerely, but if they're going to change their patterns, like this is one way to change their pattern. [SPEAKER_01]: Like for her to stop doing things she doesn't want to do, that stop doing things you don't want to do. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, at this point, it's I think in the relationship, we forgive me for doing this and we want because what is going to happen?

[SPEAKER_00]: You can get an impasse for how long. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: You know? [SPEAKER_00]: Um, ornament talks to a peer who specializes in autism and she wants to understand if she's missing something and understanding his triggers and the peer says like they're hitting triggers to not being understood like the meltdowns and the meltdowns as a response to feeling like you are bad and it's just a tremendous, a loneliness.

[SPEAKER_00]: and he responds well to her explaining. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just assuming at this point that on her colleague like watch the tape. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a question. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a question. [SPEAKER_00]: And says that so, and the colleague says, you know, you can't have couples therapy with meltdowns.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, that's what I'm saying. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know how this is going to like happen. [SPEAKER_00]: Whoo, it's dressing our doctor this season. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: This is me preaching the individual therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is definitely one where he's got some and and we have no idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I assume because she's been transitioning for 20 some odd years that she's had a good amount of therapy through all of this. [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds like he's had limited or at least not any that are focused on relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what he needs. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, now we're talking about Marjorie and Jason Jason is the one who's tattooed from head to toe and Marjorie is the one who's interested in her partner and just wants to live her life. [SPEAKER_00]: people. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Ernest saw that as an opening and she's like, oh, I'm going to take this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, how about you, Jason, how do you feel about animals? [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I don't like animals more than people. [SPEAKER_00]: I like animals, but I don't have a choice. [SPEAKER_00]: We have like five dogs, two cats, or something in there. [SPEAKER_00]: They have animals in the house, but even not, they can't even agree on.

[SPEAKER_00]: They can't agree on the number of animals in the house. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, how hard is that? [SPEAKER_00]: Just [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a cast, but there must be so many running around and it feels like one of those things where she just finds one and brings them home and he's like, whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound like there's a mutual hey babe, we should get another dog. [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like she sees something or a cat or a dog or whatever and brings it home and he's like, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: He says that his sleep space is so important to him and sometimes he comes there and the dog is just sitting there looking herself and there's a wet spot and just stuff and he's just like, uh, it's not for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they have a split king bed and he says like he's going to start taking his bed off putting it in the closet till he's ready to sleep. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, I'm saying that's a great idea. [SPEAKER_00]: Marjorie had the same time was like, oh, you're so fucking dramatic and also it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then she goes, oh, I know you were doctor. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to disrespect you. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: I think she said, are we a disaster, and I wrote, not weissis. [SPEAKER_01]: Not weissis. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this says, okay, let's prove from this. [SPEAKER_00]: So, Marjorie says that Jason always wants things a certain way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like he will bitch and complain, but then he never helps. [SPEAKER_00]: Jason says, listen. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't do the cat litter the same way like to me. [SPEAKER_00]: You do the cat litter every day and she's like no It has to sit there and you do it every few days and honor is like stopping them was like, okay Let's learn how to talk to each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to say that and Marjorie is like if you want to scoop every day we can rotate I don't see you doing it but I would appreciate it and then she stops herself and is like oh I did it again honor is like, okay, good. [SPEAKER_00]: What did you do again? [SPEAKER_00]: She goes I was me and she goes [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, he says if that happens, where do we do it every day?

[SPEAKER_00]: He has no issue doing the rest of the days. [SPEAKER_00]: And on his says, you guys do this all the time, where you both start saying something good, other than you devolve into something negative about, you know. [SPEAKER_00]: the person because he's basically saying, like, sure, you're not going to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, why am I going to waste my time? [SPEAKER_00]: So he starts saying, like, okay, I want to do more days. [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be Monday at 7 p.m. for me. [SPEAKER_00]: She goes, why are you so strict? [SPEAKER_00]: Why do we have to have a day and a time? [SPEAKER_00]: And then on our, I was like, tell me about your background.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, then he says like when he was younger, he had major anger problems when he was a kid that, you know, his dad cheated on his mom when he was three, his dad left. [SPEAKER_00]: There was like a long, custody battle. [SPEAKER_00]: They both had drug use and he started part at 13 and then he got hooked on heroin at 16 every day.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was just, you know, on strung out on something and I'm like, wow. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, he said, it was so bad that he stole her wedding ring, he stole things just to get the drugs and he's very lucky to be alive. [SPEAKER_00]: He says that he went to rehab multiple times. [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, the last time that he was in rehab, you remember telling himself, I will do whatever they tell me to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I will follow it and I will do it just so I can stay clean. [SPEAKER_00]: And even when he got out, he just kept doing whatever regiment that they told him to do at the rehab. [SPEAKER_00]: At this point, Marjorie is looking at him like other two things. [SPEAKER_00]: When she's so proud of him, I was like, oh, I can eat you up right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's eat just, she was bringing as she looked at him. [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I'm thinking, I cannot believe that she knows this about her husband. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's a recovering drug addict and she's questioning why he's structured. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: And he said he said the rigidity keeps him sober.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for you, and I can't, I cannot believe this is the first time she's heard this and I cannot believe it's the first time that he's told her this and for her to go your rigidity keeps you sober, but I'm going to cause chaos because I don't care is wild. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe it, that's what I was saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know this is not the first time. [SPEAKER_00]: So you know this about your husband and you're still challenging it and you can't support in any way and I remember on the flip side that part where people go find, you know, they say you date your parent, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe his mom was just so chaotic and he got someone who's chaotic.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's all Lucy Goosey. [SPEAKER_00]: She has to have any animal in the house. [SPEAKER_00]: She wants to drive 80 miles like there's no structure to her. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, if like this should just be some many way to understanding that this is a battle who's gonna fight for the rest of his life and you should want to support your partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why it doesn't make any sense when he said I wanna clean it on Tuesday at seven and she's like, why does it have to be so rigid? [SPEAKER_01]: Because he needs the rigidity, you crazy person, is it really that hard for your partner to say, I need this and you go, okay, [SPEAKER_01]: It's a challenge for me, but I'll set an alarm and I'll do it at seven.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like all of the things that he's got to do to keep himself sober and keep himself in this relationship, and you can't set an alarm for something that he doesn't even want to do. [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't care about this damn cat. [SPEAKER_01]: He told you didn't care about this damn cat, but he's willing to do it for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Jesus. [SPEAKER_00]: And when he says, like, for you, you think I'm being rigid, but for me, it's life or death. [SPEAKER_00]: And if I don't do it this way, I could die. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how he sees it. [SPEAKER_00]: So for you, it's just a way of life, like, if I don't do it, if I do it, I'm okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: But for him, if he's straight from his schedule, it's a big deal. [SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, it sounds her. [SPEAKER_00]: That's good information for you. [SPEAKER_01]: She goes, I know. [SPEAKER_00]: She's so she understands. [SPEAKER_00]: She gets it. [SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, what works for him doesn't work for her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, well, that could kill me. [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I don't think it's fair to hold it over her head at the end of the day. [SPEAKER_00]: She is, which she is. [SPEAKER_00]: And you made the choice to get into a relationship with a chaotic person. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't think everything is a thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You should be like, well, [SPEAKER_00]: I have to eat. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Jason. [SPEAKER_01]: She also with her chaos, chose somebody extremely rigid. [SPEAKER_01]: So but he's not rigid because it's weird. [SPEAKER_01]: He's rigid because it's lip saving. [SPEAKER_01]: What he said is what you do will kill me and I think I don't know if it's dramatic and I think he's trying to tell her, I need this stuff for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm putting up with XY and Z for you and you're doing nothing [SPEAKER_01]: In return. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, I'm so curious. [SPEAKER_01]: And I want Ordin' to ask, like, what do you guys like about each other? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what keeps you together? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The only reason why I'm saying, like, um... [SPEAKER_00]: He shouldn't hold it overhead also, but it's like the three major examples that we've heard, he's making the choice because it makes their life better. [SPEAKER_00]: So, like in the kidney litter, I just, what does it hurt? [SPEAKER_00]: Clean it out every day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you want it sitting there? [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense to me. [SPEAKER_00]: For me to take his bed out, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's pretty valid if you don't want to what spot or a dog drool over there and all that. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of work, but it doesn't sound crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then when he's like, why are we driving 80 miles one way to drop your kid at school? [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't sound crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: So the things that he's asking for are things that will make their life better and she seems to be doing things. [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, she married someone regimented but like if he's being like strict like I get it like when he said it doesn't have to be 7pm like on your day, I think that's meeting in the middle like whatever your day is whatever time you want to do, that's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: He shouldn't have to dictate. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, what time she's going to do it on a Tuesday. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: But all the other examples to me, saving you, waking up, whatever early and saving gas and doing all that in the expense to me. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I mean by the parts that he's choosing to be rigid, have been things that are helpful to them.

[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, he also voted for Trump. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's not funny. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, no. [SPEAKER_01]: Sam, let's not forget about that. [SPEAKER_00]: Sam, you just said. [SPEAKER_00]: So, on our show, okay, let's start with this. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's be in the middle and then let's see what happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get a glimpse of them in their home full of animals. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a crazy, a lot of these people seem to live outside the city because every time I see the homes and stuff, I'm like, surely you are not in the city of New York. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's like we're in the, we're in upstate New York.

[SPEAKER_00]: We just, yeah, we're along. [SPEAKER_00]: It comes here all the way for this. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a, it's chaos dish like dogs everywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the cat comes out. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and kids on top of that and margaries crazy ass on top, that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot going on in the house. [SPEAKER_01]: I would tattoo my head too. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so finally, Nessa and Dre, oh my god, she's so sad, just so sad because one person is out. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why she's here, but you know, all the best. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, Nessa says like, you know, they're best friends and she doesn't focus on the part that is dissatisfying until the romantic part and she's like, nah, oh my god, can you say something nice about this woman like what?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then Arna is like, when you say romantic part to you means sexual and she goes, yes, I mean sexual and honestly I'm not in a Desiring mood. [SPEAKER_00]: She's like for the long for the longest time in their relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: It was one sided that Jaya was basically a Peele Princess and I was only one that was serving.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then they went through a time where Jaya did not want anything to do with her at all and she went without for a year. [SPEAKER_00]: Dan Dre turned 40 and found her confidence and has sexual prowess and now she's like a ravener and you know, she's in her head about it and Dre says she understands that it's hard to have those things and be intimate but comma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Where are you putting those things when you and I quote letting me eat your pussy? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: That was a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I was like, oh, dear God, whoo, I'm here to tell you, she put it well, so I'm going to put it well. [SPEAKER_00]: And this I was like, well, I'm thinking am I leading her on?

[SPEAKER_00]: I said excuse me, leading her on because you're planning to break up, how do you [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Busy! [SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: Tate is always a day. [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just, I couldn't believe it because remember last episode, we're just like, you know, this is some harsh words to hear from your partner.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, what is the drive home like? [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think things like that and look at them the same? [SPEAKER_00]: And now we come back and there's almost, it almost feels like NASA wants to use this therapy to push her away so that Drake can be like, you know what, you hate me and I'm done.

[SPEAKER_00]: But people that try to do that always have partners that are like, I don't care what you do. [SPEAKER_00]: I've with you to the end of time and the next life. [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like Vanessa is auditioning for her next partner where she's putting out like, I want to drive her. [SPEAKER_01]: I want this and oh, but I initiate and I have, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like she's putting out there, you know, we ask why is Vanessa even on the show? [SPEAKER_01]: I think she's [SPEAKER_01]: auditioning her next partner. [SPEAKER_01]: And she's letting the person know, I'm going to be driven. [SPEAKER_01]: And don't worry, you could be a pillow princess.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll take care of you. [SPEAKER_01]: And I want this. [SPEAKER_01]: It just, uh, it doesn't necessarily not here to repair anything. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's here to break up her. [SPEAKER_00]: I just think she needs it with a professional way. [SPEAKER_00]: She's kind of hoping that Dre will be like, if you don't want me, why would I be here anyway?

[SPEAKER_00]: So let me go while also getting help with a professional to help her with the broken heart. [SPEAKER_00]: So she thinks she's doing good thing because everything she says is insane. [SPEAKER_00]: So, she's like, it's not like I can bring it up because if I bring it up, she does bunny ears and killing the moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just like, you know, he's doing bunny ears, you are killing the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, Dre at this point is still very calm. [SPEAKER_00]: And just, I mean, my significant other saying how these things is like, how long have you carried this? [SPEAKER_00]: Look, is this what you think of me when you look at me?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: So, I want to ask Nessa, like, what response would you give, um, Dreya? [SPEAKER_00]: What response could Dreya give to feel like this space to talk? [SPEAKER_00]: And she's just like, well, I would like us to refrain from intimacy. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, no, no, Nessa, that is not me!

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh god, what is that? [SPEAKER_00]: What was that? [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, so Andrea says, and this is being ridiculous. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's ridiculous. [SPEAKER_00]: Why can't I be intimate with my wife? [SPEAKER_00]: And Orna has to stop her because she is now going to 100. [SPEAKER_00]: She rolled her eyes and Orna is just like, listen, we can single, we want, we can be cynical, but it's not going to go anywhere.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Orna was like, okay, so where does that leave you? [SPEAKER_00]: And necessary is like, I don't have anything, no, Dre is like, I have nothing to say about whether that leaves me, but you can see she's having that, she's bouncing her leg, that anxiety about leg balance, and she's just like, this is so upsetting.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Dre says, listen, I love her. [SPEAKER_00]: I love Nessa. [SPEAKER_00]: I love being married to her, the best part of my life, and every good experience has been with her, because she is the best person that I pick to do [SPEAKER_00]: to have a child with and all I'm hearing is like she's ready to be done with me.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she knows and that's the most part. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like she doesn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: She knows. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's still tough. [SPEAKER_01]: I know and I think to some degree, she put that out there and I think she was kind of waiting for Nessia to say something similar back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I said, at least pat her back this time, and she, you know, Andreas just like, I'm a good wife, and somebody will be happy to have me. [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, I just wish she was this person. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the thing is, [SPEAKER_00]: Everything she says, like, you know, every experience I've had, she's been part of a first of everything I've done, that has been with Nessa.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think Nessa sees all of that as a negative. [SPEAKER_00]: When she's seeing that as nostalgic and loving, and Nessa's just seeing it as like, that is the problem. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't everything together. [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like we both need a world beyond me. [SPEAKER_00]: You are too attached to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the thing she says, something sweet and it's hoping to like remind her of all the things they have, but I think she's room, I mean, Dreya. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think she's reminding Nessa that, yeah, we gotta cut the cord. [SPEAKER_00]: Like she just, she has me as a blanket now and she just wants to be me all the time and I don't want it anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: which, and it's interesting because you would think that that's the goal of a partnership. [SPEAKER_01]: You would think that that's the goal that I've married my best friend that I'm sharing, like, all the best moments that I've had is with this person. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, isn't that the goal of relationship, but it seems to be a negative for NASA.

[SPEAKER_01]: And your point is that she's done kind of being the teacher. [SPEAKER_01]: She's the same way she's done being the teacher. [SPEAKER_01]: in their 20s, she doesn't want to be a teacher anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess to her credit, if we've got to give her any little credit, is she's told to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just not who Dre is. [SPEAKER_01]: So she can't fundamentally change who she is now to be who you want her to be now. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't see a resolution of this. [SPEAKER_01]: And oh, cameras in that car right home, because this is to be so awkward. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did find it like, you know, the juxtaposition of, you know, a header relationship and, you know, lesbian relationship, it's that two wives who are saying, I thought I was a good wife.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was doing everything that they needed. [SPEAKER_00]: I am open to everything and it's just not enough. [SPEAKER_00]: you know. [SPEAKER_00]: So we see them at home. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know having dinner lunch. [SPEAKER_00]: We do not see the kid, but Nessa does do a sign of the cross and I'm like, oh, why they can't click?

[SPEAKER_00]: If you can't think, like, let's go down. [SPEAKER_00]: But also, I just want to point out, guys, I was also so wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: I was so sure that Dre was one who carried their kid and he was Nessa. [SPEAKER_00]: That was a surprise. [SPEAKER_00]: When I saw that thing, I was like, oh, hey, hey, girl, hey.

[SPEAKER_01]: So not as conventional, not as conventionally unconventional [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I'm just going into the deeper. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's the case. [SPEAKER_00]: Hoping that all the right paperwork is done because technically Nessa is the mother, right? [SPEAKER_01]: biologically, but but I mean at the end of the day, I'm sure the birth certificate has both of their names on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I'm just saying like because you never know with human beings, how nasty they get and we divorce and the way she's being so cold. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just also wondering if that's also a fear for Julia because remember the first episode she said, what's the difference if we break up now and she goes we have a child.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is just worst case scenario. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's the case. [SPEAKER_00]: I never know, but also we hear of all this custody battles and all of the things you never know. [SPEAKER_01]: All the fights and all the things that happen with people, you know, the way Ness is well and right now, I think if it came down to it, she would probably be the temperature.

[SPEAKER_01]: The way she's ready to be done and out and balance and start her new life and be this driver if that came down to it. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I mean, I don't know this person from Adam, but this is giving right now is I'm ready to cut ties and start over. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ready to move to a new a new place and start a new family and a new life and it happens all the time where people break up and the kids are like, what kids?

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have any kids. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I have a new family now. [SPEAKER_00]: It happens. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no. [SPEAKER_00]: Whenever all these things happen, I am team kid. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just going to take it back from the universe and that is not going to be the case. [SPEAKER_00]: If they do split up, they will share custody, they will both be loving parents and be good co-parents, even if they hate each other and everything will be a okay in the kids' world.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not my, it's not my hope that that. [SPEAKER_01]: I know I know. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just doing a way universe. [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be surprised, but I, but you're a good person. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm, I've got a [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, that's it for this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any last thoughts? [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, I just, I wanted to be kind of like a reality dating show where sometimes I want to mix up the couples and find people who are better for each other. [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to see CNN Jason together, but not really because Jason's a mad guy supporter.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I keep forgetting that about him, but yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Just, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I would not match any of the couple's on couples therapy with anyone. [SPEAKER_00]: Just go e-force and be free. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You're probably gonna do that. [SPEAKER_01]: So you're fucked and we did whatever we have to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks, Jen. [SPEAKER_00]: It's been fun. [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, of course. [SPEAKER_00]: Guys, you know what to find me? [SPEAKER_00]: I'll to call MEFS. [SPEAKER_00]: Please give me a five-star rating on Spotify and Apple Podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: And send me a comment, something which you think.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think about all these couples? [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think anyone will last? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they usually do. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I'm saying that. [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they do, and I'm like, how? [SPEAKER_00]: But it's going on. [SPEAKER_00]: But until next time, guys, we'll be back with episode three.

[SPEAKER_00]: Bye, guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Bye.

Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 2 w/Jenn

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