Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 3 w/Jenn

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everybody, welcome to another episode. [SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Tane, here to talk about couples therapies, season five, episode three. [SPEAKER_01]: As always with me, here is Jen, hi Jen. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing? [SPEAKER_00]: I am doing well and unwell at the same time, so I'm not really sure what that's all about.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the first thing is, I'm so deeply invested in this Sierra Amanda West. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I have more podcasts, just because I'm obviously not my husband, it's not interested in this at all. [SPEAKER_00]: So my husband, but here's somebody's thoughts, and I am so deeply invested in everybody's thoughts on this, and I'm just like, what is happening?

[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of want them to be on couples therapy, it would be useless, but I wanna see how owner handles it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's very interesting to see if Orner ever gets to have like celebrity guests on there and to see how she handles it and you're right, you'll be useless because They're so far gone or maybe not because I still think that I mean Brian and I covered it and we talked about it and I still kind of think like it is not 0% for Kyle and Amanda to get back together.

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: How to say I don't. [SPEAKER_01]: I think he has a lot of guilt for how she's here and she's a co-dependent by nature and he's been nicer and he's someone she can depend on like yes it was 10 years and yes she was unhappy but at least she knows it she embedded the devil you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean I guess Kyle's not a terrible person he's a terrible husband but he's not as a [SPEAKER_00]: Um, wanting to make sure she's okay, but I feel like 10 years of their relationship proves it proved he doesn't want to be with her, so I'd be shocked if they got back together because, this, whatever, this version of it, because didn't he say at one point like I like this version of you or this is the version of you I found love with?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is temporary. [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't her forever. [SPEAKER_00]: This is her without you. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what it is that he likes. [SPEAKER_01]: He's saying this version I fell in love with. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's going out. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but good luck to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there are people on the side, though, for the rest of the reunion. [SPEAKER_01]: But pageant.com slash also call MAFS. [SPEAKER_01]: You can get bonus episodes up there right now. [SPEAKER_01]: It is 90 day fiancee. [SPEAKER_01]: The first two episodes recap of the new season is up there for the original OG.

[SPEAKER_01]: And last resort recap is also up there. [SPEAKER_01]: So you can check that out over there. [SPEAKER_01]: You can also get early episodes, video episodes, and yeah, that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: And oh, ad free episodes as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I do want to, uh, tell me one last episode of episode two.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for those who let me know that it caught off at the end. [SPEAKER_01]: So sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what happened. [SPEAKER_01]: Technology hates me sometimes, but it has been corrected. [SPEAKER_01]: I uploaded a new one with the, um, complete episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Any caught off at Dre and Nessa.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: So apologies for that, but it's been fixed. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you had downloaded earlier, you can read download, and the end is complete now. [SPEAKER_01]: Jen, it's not bad news. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: But I knew it was too good to be true for us to love Dr. Orner.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I came across a clip of Dr. Orner on the last culture east as podcasts. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's the first problem. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first problem, but keep going. [SPEAKER_01]: how she hates people telling her to leash her dog meco. [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, wait.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're in New York. [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, he's just a bundle of love. [SPEAKER_01]: He's a log-bomb. [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't hurt anybody. [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, yeah, everyone says that about their dog. [SPEAKER_01]: Still leash him because that's the wall.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what you're supposed to do. [SPEAKER_01]: And then she goes into another story of how, you know, Nico was playing around one time. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whether he went into something and there was a guy and he's like, yeah, a baby and the baby was screaming, you know, doing all the noise pollution and I quote, [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, I'm really hoping because I question everything right now that it wasn't AI because I don't know what is real or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just waiting through this world, but I don't think it was AI, but also it wasn't like news everywhere, I just happened to stumble across it because my algorithm probably knows I'm covering couples therapy, but yes, she says noise pollution and then after the dog does whatever it is and then the guy was like, well, are you going to clean up after your dog and she's like, I don't like people telling me, I was like, wait.

[SPEAKER_01]: So was the plan not to pick up the people or why do you see you ask it? [SPEAKER_01]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean the guest two thing can be true. [SPEAKER_00]: I can enjoy her for what she presents and that she's good at her job But she can also be a rich white woman living in New York and feel been titled and that's two things can be true [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of wild, though.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to unleash what? [SPEAKER_00]: It's wild to put that on wax and have that recorded for the world because I don't know what universe or where anybody would live for somebody to go. [SPEAKER_00]: This is gonna be fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's gonna have a problem with this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just gonna say it. [SPEAKER_00]: That'd be fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Like what? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's how deep the entitlement goes, but anyways, still we continue because Dr. Orner is really the central version of this show that we cover. [SPEAKER_01]: And the first person is Marjorie and Jason.

[SPEAKER_01]: Marjorie starts by telling us that their homework last week was not completed. [SPEAKER_01]: Orner's like, okay, and then she's like, [SPEAKER_01]: We did the cat litter, but I was away for we did the cat litter agreement, but I was away for a week and he's like, yeah, nobody did it. [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, no one did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then she thought that he would do it because she was out when she left and Orna says, but there wasn't agreement and he's like, yeah, none of that was discussed and [SPEAKER_01]: Tuesdays, and I am flored. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a whole ass argument, a meme demanding actual days. [SPEAKER_01]: His day was Monday, Monday, 7 p.m. and she said, all the Tuesdays, then he said, between 7 and 8 and she said, oh, I don't want a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm watching it so it's easier, but how the hell? [SPEAKER_00]: Did they all forget? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe, again, we keep talking about, what is that far right home like? [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe it's, I don't know if it's that, it's that thing from Men and Black, where it's that show memory, and they forget everything that they talked about.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that was a central part of last week. [SPEAKER_00]: Was really like, I need structure, I need a pattern, and so for him to just be like, patterned, patterned, and I, I like, I think I was that, I don't know if he was punishing her for leaving town, like we don't know why she left.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that was wild for him to say I need structure or I'm not gonna live and I'm a recovering addict Matter of death. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it'd be like up. [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine Okay, sorry goodness. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's a better person than me. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm be like, not not not not last week at 253 p.m Roll it all made me listen to your stupid ass arguments [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look at her, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I'm like, all right. [SPEAKER_01]: This is what this episode is going to be like. [SPEAKER_01]: Then Ernest says she doesn't care about their cat litter. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, because they were getting in the deed of that's the first time I feel like I'm seeing like it's super a node with a couple or maybe the second time, but she was like stop you were missing a plot here sis and sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's like it's more about the process because also this is also an indicator of how far gone they are in terms of being partners because yes, you made an agreement, but it's not a well, if you don't do this, I'm not going to do this, [SPEAKER_01]: to be cleaned. [SPEAKER_01]: Just do it again.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, not to, not to, you know, be a magma Jason supporter. [SPEAKER_00]: But like, did they just not talk? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, does she just leave? [SPEAKER_00]: And not tell him because I could see a world where he, she didn't tell him. [SPEAKER_00]: They, she was leaving. [SPEAKER_00]: She just left.

[SPEAKER_00]: And but also they've got kids like isn't this part of why you have kids and so they can help around the house like Where were the kids of you two don't want to do it. [SPEAKER_00]: Let the kids do it. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand what this is why there's not an option Then come to think trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think a woman who's willing to drive 80 miles each way for kids to be comfortable is going to make them do cat litter. [SPEAKER_01]: No, she's going to be like, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to put any burden on you. [SPEAKER_01]: I know this is gross and it's my cat. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she did say I thought he would do it. [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning they're not talking because if you had an agreement and you're like, hey Jason, I'm not going to be around. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you mind if you do this and then I'll pick it up next week and then we can go back to what we agreed on or did you text him while you were away?

[SPEAKER_01]: And say hey today's my day, did you do the cat lid? [SPEAKER_01]: I just it just seems a lot of like tith for tact going on. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you didn't do it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm not going to do it But from what it seems he had Mondays and he didn't even remember that he had a day So they didn't talk about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: They went home and that was it So I feel [SPEAKER_01]: not offended, but I feel played because I'm out here saying like, you know, Jason needs this, he needs to structure the world, Lucy Goose here. [SPEAKER_01]: So we are right. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why it wouldn't, Marjorie pick up on that energy and go along with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, they, they must not talk to each other at all. [SPEAKER_00]: And or unless they're only former communication is different, [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't know, how did you get this far? [SPEAKER_00]: Like I understand, you know, I'm a divorcee. [SPEAKER_00]: So I understand how things get this far.

[SPEAKER_00]: But your in therapy on TV, because you want to resolve this. [SPEAKER_00]: You, I would think. [SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, resolve it, people. [SPEAKER_00]: This is crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: He says, I didn't do it because I was just like, I don't want anything to do with the cap litter or the cap, I was roped into doing it and yes, I agreed but then the resentment takes over and I'm like, nah, forget it, I'm not doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think if I were a owner, not like I'm licensed or anything, but just as a regular or a regular human being, I would ask. [SPEAKER_01]: What is your goal of being here? [SPEAKER_01]: Are you checking off a box where you wrote into doing therapy? [SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to achieve from this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I'm giving you tools and I'm giving you assignments and you're saying, nah, the resentment takes over. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to do it for get it. [SPEAKER_01]: To me, you're not trying. [SPEAKER_01]: That's an easy simple task to try. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're just like, fuck that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're deeply entrenched in this, you know, it's, if I don't get my way, then I'm burning the whole thing down. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's, that's where they're stuck is that they're both trying to get something from me. [SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, they're both trying to get something from the other person.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they're not willing to give in order to get. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It's so painful to watch. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So then we move on to be real of them on the beach and they're walking through the beach and she's like, hold my hand, hold my fucking hand. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to and she's like, this is why I hate you most days and I'm like, oh my God. [SPEAKER_01]: Or not really has her hands full this season. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I didn't read note of that, too. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a whole, my fucking hand. [SPEAKER_00]: Why would I want to? [SPEAKER_00]: When you say, hold my fucking hand.

[SPEAKER_00]: What about that makes me go, ooh, tingley, let's do this, like that's just so prickly. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and as if that wasn't bad enough, she's like, this is why I hate you most days. [SPEAKER_01]: Like leading with the negative which your therapist already called out like stop leading with the negative They're not trying that's what pisses me off about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just don't seem to try They're comfortable in this resentment. [SPEAKER_01]: They're rolling around it. [SPEAKER_01]: They're putting it on as foundation In fact, they're they're tanning with it rolling off. [SPEAKER_01]: They're the back rolling on the other sides And not even any timelines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get soaked up in this resentment. [SPEAKER_01]: That's where they are [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not fun and it takes so much more energy to figure it out or sorry it takes so much less energy to figure this out than it is to put like because for me to be angry at you for me to plan to be angry at you takes so much energy like I'm going to try to hold your hand and I know you're going to not do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I've got something teed up to say back to you. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that takes so much energy. [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to hold his hand, hold his hand. [SPEAKER_00]: If he doesn't want to hold your hand, didn't put your finger on his belt loop or rub his bag. [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's a hundred of, if you want an affection that badly, you've got to give to get.

[SPEAKER_00]: Says like, uh, this doesn't seem hard from the outside, but I'm not in it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not resentful. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not like with somebody who's face I hate every day. [SPEAKER_00]: But it just seems like a lot of work. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can say, like, from each couple, I have seen a tender moment, including Drea and Nessa at this episode, but I have not seen a tender moment with these two.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Orner is telling Virginia that one of the issues they struggle with is Jason's rigidity, and they had a deal, they didn't do it, and any change will require change in all areas in him. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was interesting to me why Orner, [SPEAKER_01]: single him out I guess because I would think he would be both of them but I don't know maybe the rigidity I don't know maybe that's what it was.

[SPEAKER_01]: Virginia says it feels like Marjorie has a sharp shaming way of speaking to him and owner says yes and it's an ineffective way of dealing with his rigidity. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, okay, yeah, we all know that. [SPEAKER_00]: Same as, it's no insight here, but yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So she hopes by listening better, it can change.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they go back to the therapy session. [SPEAKER_01]: And Marjorie says that she has so much trauma from her first marriage, and it was toxic verbally and emotionally, not physically, but she was always on eggshells. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, that is wild. [SPEAKER_00]: Given the way she talks to him, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, or you would think that would be the thing that she's like, let me make sure I don't Like why would I why I'm going to act exactly the same and hope that things are going to be different No, I don't get this to it all So she says she found her voice [SPEAKER_01]: Um, she was, you know, very timid, she wasn't her 20, she didn't really know herself, but now she's found her voice and she's like, oh, I guess I am mean to him when she said she found her voice, he's like, boy, did you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Strong suits of Dr. Orner is like she always knows when to like they say something really quickly and they want to brush over it And she's like pause give me an example like let's talk this thing out because it's very easy to be like Oh, I said it. [SPEAKER_01]: I talked about it, but they really didn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: So But it also forces them sorry like last week when they were talking about oh we know or maybe it was the first episode when they were like oh we know we have different Political beliefs. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: What are they and they were like uh [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so to your point, like she's got to get them to be concrete about it because they just say things and they don't really know why and yeah, so it's good that they I mean it doesn't help but it's good that she drives.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I need a drink, just watching it. [SPEAKER_01]: So he says, okay, I'm ready for this. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for asking. [SPEAKER_01]: He said he's not an idiot, but he did a whole shift. [SPEAKER_01]: He's changing the way that he eats, having a whole lifestyle change, and he likes it, and he's excited about it, and it's working for him, and she's just mean about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like when I was like okay, me and what way and she says she says things like oh my god shut the fuck up No one wants to hear this anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like oh I'm not laughing at it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like and I'm sure she doesn't even realize like she's just so used to it that [SPEAKER_01]: Hearing him say it out loud, she's realizing, oh my god, this is awful.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she says she knows it's not nice, but oh my god, like he just talks about it all the time and it's constant and it's all he talks about. [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, OK, well, I feel alone. [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel unsupported. [SPEAKER_01]: So I know it sounds weird. [SPEAKER_01]: But I use Chad GPT.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's an epidemic, guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Chad GPT is helpful, but not real. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not lose human connection. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, even if she's not being supportive, I don't know family members. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know friends. [SPEAKER_01]: Why is Chad GPT the next thing? [SPEAKER_01]: So I understand that he says he feeds Chad GPT like everything for the protein, for the amount, and what he did, and the weight loss, [SPEAKER_01]: it's not real.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he leans on Chad GPD for support and when he does something right Chad GPD says, you've done well. [SPEAKER_01]: And uh, Marjorie is laughing because, you know, it's Marjorie. [SPEAKER_00]: Broke my heart. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen the movie her with the movie Phoenix? [SPEAKER_00]: It felt a lot like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, no, like I have to get my emotional support from her. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: a computer. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I feel what you're saying about, like, don't you have other people in your life? [SPEAKER_00]: And my guess is that if Jason has other people in his life, they're not the people that he's going to be like, yeah, bro, I need to pat on the back.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things that get that from the people in his life. [SPEAKER_00]: But not to, and I'm nobody's apologies, but my ex has been. [SPEAKER_00]: did the same thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Like one day he just woke up and decided he was going to go on this whole fitness journey and he just started running out of the blue and he told the change the way he ate and like he was eating like those girls on showgirls where it was just brown rice and broccoli and grilled chicken and I did say I was like gosh you your food makes me sad like I can't eat like you eat.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was effective and it worked. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think at one point, I got kind of resentful. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, well, I think I was bum that we didn't do it together. [SPEAKER_00]: Like he just woke up one day and decided to make this change. [SPEAKER_00]: And so maybe for a tiny fraction of a second, I felt Marjorie, where I was like, oh, okay, like it's kind of a bummer [SPEAKER_00]: the person that you're with is doing something that's resulting in a big change and they didn't invite you to do it with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it sounds like Jason invited her or at least he updates her so that she's got ways to be involved. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's me, I'm the problem it's me that I didn't join my ex when he started making this change. [SPEAKER_00]: But I could see how especially, you know, because men lose weight so much quicker than women that like once he tries it and it's effective, [SPEAKER_00]: shut up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, those are two different things that you said, though. [SPEAKER_01]: It's one thing if he started and didn't tell her, but she started first. [SPEAKER_01]: And they were doing it together. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's ruled out. [SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing is being resentful that it's actually working.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think that's what's going from her is that she's resentful that it's working. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm leading up to that. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just saying like in terms of [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I can understand how you felt, um, with your ex husband, but in her case, they were doing it together.

[SPEAKER_01]: She gave up and then he continued and it's also even if she's feeling resentful, there's a whole difference. [SPEAKER_01]: She could use her words to kind of say that versus saying shut the fuck up, nobody cares. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a terrible. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a 100. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a 100.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a 100. [SPEAKER_00]: There's that out of it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: He does say that. [SPEAKER_01]: He says she feels like she needs to be on the defense because he's always happening about oh you need this much protein as a 44 year old woman and I'm just like wait she's [SPEAKER_01]: and it has to be this way and you have to do that and that's him inviting her along.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's him telling her like, hey, this is how much quotes in them doing. [SPEAKER_01]: This is how I'm sure again, once someone annoys you everything they do is annoying and she's reading it as, don't tell me what to do. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Lucy Goosey. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think you know better than me. [SPEAKER_01]: So interpretation is a whole other thing when it comes to communication, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: He thinks that honestly, she's just resentful because she tried the weight loss medication. [SPEAKER_01]: He did, I'm like, wait to bury the lead.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he was doing this. [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't add that for it. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it also whole context doesn't matter, but I'm just like, it came afterwards. [SPEAKER_01]: So they both tried it and the thing is she didn't change her lifestyle. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the part I can understand where she's just like you think you're better than me because you didn't change your lifestyle and I just did this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he just thinks that she's resentful. [SPEAKER_01]: She says she's not. [SPEAKER_01]: She's not resentful. [SPEAKER_01]: Orna says, so if it's not resentment, what does it make you feel? [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, well, I think it makes me feel bad about myself. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: unusual this season.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering why Orner is an asking why if she felt bad in her first marriage like you know with all that why she doing the same thing to him. [SPEAKER_01]: That was never brought up. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: She's the expert. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think what she described was resentment, but she doesn't want to label it that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: He says, like, I just want what's best for our family. [SPEAKER_01]: And when she shuts me down, when I'm excited, I feel bad. [SPEAKER_01]: And in all of this, not once that she asks me how are you doing with all this? [SPEAKER_01]: So at this point, she's tearing up and saying like she feels so bad that he doesn't feel supported and the thing is just because it's not his way, it doesn't mean it's the only way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, in this case, you can do a your way, but that's completely separate from saying good job. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: But she's actually he's crying and she hates her emotions, so she's not liking that she's crying and Jason turns around and is like, yeah, I don't believe her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because or there's like, or there's like she's being sincere. [SPEAKER_01]: She's saying all the things that is like, yeah, what make I'm across this sincerity. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that she's sincere and I don't think that she feels it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then she's like, why do you think that, um, [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you're not feeling it like the thing is you go to chat GPT and you what you ask for is support and now she's offering it to you a real person or not sneak that in and don't miss out on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking like, man, we are cooked by this AI shit. [SPEAKER_00]: But it is. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, it is a lot and that, you know, we talked about it last week with Chris and like, why I mean, I guess he went to another person and not chat GPT. [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess that's better, but not really like there's just this [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just ask what you want, man. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's not that hard. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're like, most women, or not Marjorie, but if you say, I need this, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I just need it because it's hard because this resentment. [SPEAKER_01]: Resentment is after how many years is such a big wedge and they can't get out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: What they need help with is getting out of that resentment and having a fresh start. [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: If Allison and her husband could get out of her last season, but also I don't even know if it was as deep as this. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was, it was, you know, she's Mama came over and she said, I'm out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bye. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they were best. [SPEAKER_00]: And Alan and Marjorie and that reminds me a little bit Allison in terms of being an interruptor and even recognizing when she messes up I think last week, when she interrupted Ornau or she disagreed with Ornau kind of opened and she's like, I know I'm not supposed to say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So she has some awareness that she's not [SPEAKER_00]: Reacting properly, but she's like, yeah, physically can't stop herself. [SPEAKER_00]: And for her to stay, I don't like emotions is crazy because you are deeply tapped into your anger. [SPEAKER_00]: So when you like that, you're good with that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, any last words for them? [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think they both just need hugs. [SPEAKER_00]: They can get a referral to the cuddling. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I took a quick break and I'll be right back. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we are back with Nessa and Drea and I'm like, yeah, they're not the last, this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a second, I get stiffed them totally. [SPEAKER_00]: It's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: We got a b-roll of them playing video games at home and all that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, how are they able to play video games and be chummy after all the things that Nessa says in therapy? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how everybody else out there feels.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to know guys, but every week I am blown by the thing [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I don't know, like we're here to be better, but I don't know if I can recover from the things that she says. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she's one of those people that's like, well, I'm just being honest.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just being honest. [SPEAKER_00]: So, well, there's a way to be honest without begging your partner over the head, but he's very specifically mean things. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can be honest in a way that's productive and her way of honesty is not [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like I said, I think she's just here to break up with her and wants her to have the tools to be able to do with the break up, but or to ask NASA if she has a vision for this relationship and she was like continued progress and individuation, which allows a sense of freedom, mutual respect, self love, and self care, [SPEAKER_01]: And when Dreia rules her eyes, I am right there with her because what the fuck are all these words?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you a human being who I've spent more than half my life with, share a child with, or are you a bot? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is this? [SPEAKER_00]: Is auditioning to be a life coach or something? [SPEAKER_00]: I just, what are you saying? [SPEAKER_00]: Just what? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, on her, I'll be love it, on her. [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, can you bring it down to earth very concretely? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: She says, if she engages in activity outside the home, that might be nice. [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, this meanness that we're talking about, like, you know, maybe you can have a life or personality, that might be nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or not ask, oh no, I'm not saying because the thing about therapy that people always say is like people go in saying like I'm not the problem if we can fix that about that person, then we'll be okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Or not says no, I'm not asking about. [SPEAKER_01]: Drea, I'm asking about you.

[SPEAKER_01]: What would you be doing? [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, like, if she could have this freedom, that she's always speaking of. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was floored when she said, I don't know that she's been operating like this for so long that I actually don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's your work that's working on that, really?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I was, because you're making such a whole spectacle about, I want to do this, I want to do this. [SPEAKER_01]: So someone would think that you have a clear, [SPEAKER_01]: planned on what you want to do and you don't. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's my thing with Nessa is I think that she has a dissatisfaction about her life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fair to project that to drier that she should be dissatisfied too. [SPEAKER_01]: The woman likes her life simple. [SPEAKER_01]: She wanted her soul mate. [SPEAKER_01]: She met them young. [SPEAKER_01]: She grew with that person. [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't child together. [SPEAKER_01]: They [SPEAKER_01]: But Jaya feels like he should not be, I mean, Nessa feels like he should not be enough for her and that's not fair.

[SPEAKER_00]: And projection is the perfect word because I think what it sounds like is that every experience or every first experience Jaya had was with Nessa and maybe to me it sounds like Nessa just ran out of things to show her. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, this is the one that's looking for a driver and Nessa's the one looking for somebody [SPEAKER_00]: to show her new things and opening up to new things because every new thing she had, she's right out of.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So, Jay has says, wow, I assume that you had a whole laundry list of things that this investment was stopping you from doing. [SPEAKER_01]: And honor shares with Virginia that well, the peers, her peers, that Nessa talks abstractly about this new horizon that she wants for herself, but she doesn't lead with feelings so it takes time to get to the honey inside her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, that's such a nice way of saying you. [SPEAKER_00]: We're just like, she's mean. [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, it takes time to get the honey. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, one of them says, like, it looks like she's having a hard time saying what she wants to go to, but we don't know if it's because she doesn't want to say it, like she knows, but she doesn't want to say it in her drare and Kelly, she's the back pair says having a hard time that maybe she's having a hard time because it's so much bigger than drare.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just about drare. [SPEAKER_01]: They go back to therapy and Necesses like, you know, when they met, she needed to be needed. [SPEAKER_01]: She wanted to be a savior and Jale was like, it's true. [SPEAKER_01]: Every first was Vanessa. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, when she went on a plane, she never had guac before.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she was living a small life and Necesses like, yeah, that was fun, but she feels like she shrunk. [SPEAKER_01]: And she's missing something and maybe God is telling her, you know, don't be in this relationship anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't expecting her to go there. [SPEAKER_01]: I was fully expecting her to say like, yeah, but things like, you know, when we travel, I want to be able to enjoy things too and just have that experience with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: and learn and not just feel like I'm a teacher and then have that, you know, expectation or that, you know, not burdened but to be like, oh, I'm going to show you things. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I knew the one who's going to plan it and that's where I thought she was going. [SPEAKER_01]: But she's like, oh, God telling her not to be in the relationship anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, wait, what? [SPEAKER_01]: God's like, I didn't say that. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't call me. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't bring me to the. [SPEAKER_01]: Because she had said like, you know, maybe in a spiritual level, and then she said that, and owner asked her, like, what did you mean by the spiritual aspect?

[SPEAKER_01]: And she says, oh, I mean, like, oh, God saying, don't be in a homosexual relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: And me and owner were in the same page because when owner goes, oh, I said that out loud. [SPEAKER_01]: As I was watching, I was like, whoa, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that surprises me every episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Every episode, [SPEAKER_01]: Nessa says, oh, yeah, that's always been there. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know if it's my socialization or if I'm just ignoring the voice of God. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, wow. [SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, that's part of why she's like, maybe they don't need to be together and maybe there's stuff that she needs to figure out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where were you thoughts on this? [SPEAKER_01]: When she said the whole, maybe God is saying I shouldn't be in a homosexual relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's hard because I don't like Nessa and I'm not in a place where I want to give her any grace, but to me, it just feels like she's throwing things at the wall.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to throw everything out there to show that I don't want to be in this relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should be straight. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good thing. [SPEAKER_00]: I want bigger things. [SPEAKER_00]: She's just kind of throwing all things out the wall for trying to finally say, okay, you're right.

[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't right for us. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna let you go. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it came out of nowhere. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think for something that big, like if I'm questioning my sexuality and I've been in this, you know, same sex marriage for this long, how did that sound like something that would come up early?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big deal. [SPEAKER_00]: A big deal, a big deal. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, I'm at the point where I just feel like Ness is doing everything she can to get out of this. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was suck if she like leaves this relationship and then she gets to do another relationship and it's another homosexual relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the girl that she picks her look exactly like Dreja. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, but younger than this one. [SPEAKER_00]: So, so she can teach her stuff again in this case. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Or not asked their background, and that's always like, oh, I was raising the Catholic church.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you all remember last week, I was like, oh, she did the sign of the cross. [SPEAKER_01]: If you can't think, and I got my answer, you got it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: she says that she's West Indian and they're very anti-homosexuality and when she was younger when her was in her mom then found out there was a whole prayer group to pray the gay way for like her better word and so at that point she left the church.

[SPEAKER_01]: Drea had a face, Orna says, what are you thinking? [SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, we have an interesting relationship with the church, and then Nessa takes over. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm saying this because good on Orna for always catching Drea's face, but you can tell that Nessa's on who drives the relationship that's what she said, but she's on who does most of the talking.

[SPEAKER_01]: in their session, but Dreya has a lot to say. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Dreya does a lot of like physical reactions. [SPEAKER_00]: She has her face is very telling. [SPEAKER_00]: her body language is very telling how she's this is very telling so she may not say a lot but she's saying a lot without her work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but she needs to say things with words because it's a dynamic of their relationship because Nessa is complaining that she's always leading but Nessa is also going to be mad if she's not leading. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just the irony of it all. [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're just used to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So drag just let her go and [SPEAKER_01]: So, they talk about when they were trying to conceive their daughter, they found a non-denominational church and when they had their daughter, they wanted to dedicate her, there were told the day before that they wouldn't dedicate their daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dres says like yeah, I feel like she's brushing over a lot of important details and listener. [SPEAKER_01]: She was Jam, it was just a hard time for them like they had a mascara that five months for twins And it was just rough and the way the pastor came over and was just very matter of fact and like why the Her thing was just like why did the bar stop at game mothers which is true like, you know in the church is a lot of like [SPEAKER_01]: condemnation and it seems to stop at, you know, homosexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of other things that are sins. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of other things and fatality For an addiction is we're gonna hear, but oh, that can be forgiven, but when he comes to being gay, that suddenly is like oh my god That is the worst of the worst of them all [SPEAKER_01]: And she says the thing that really did it for her and this is Dreja, just really telling us to fool truth, is that he compared their marriage to his, his pornography addiction and wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was here trying to figure out what was the comparison, like what did he say? [SPEAKER_00]: But I'll tell you the same way you can pick a new therapist, you can certainly pick a new kind of a new church because this is what? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, that's, I think that's what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Dre also tells us, and the thing is like they built like a new part of the church or an annex or something, five minutes from their house. [SPEAKER_01]: And every time she has to drive past it, and like, and she's going to the grocery, she did say supermarket, which I just found interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't say supermarket, so I just found that interesting that she said that, I say grocery store. [SPEAKER_01]: So she was like, uh, every time I have to drive past it, I just get mad all over again. [SPEAKER_01]: And then that's like, yeah, it was painful, but we deal with things differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can't walk around with that much pain and like, oh, god. [SPEAKER_01]: Or like, let her be angry. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let her be human. [SPEAKER_01]: We get it. [SPEAKER_01]: You're a self-actualized human being. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, you're beyond it all. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_00]: But also not though, because you don't really know what that means.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we were to ask her what self-actualization, I don't think she could give us a definition. [SPEAKER_00]: But also, like, Andrea is an expressive one, and you knew that. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that would be something if Nessa is going to be somebody that's kind of, I don't know, even killed and not necessarily emotional.

[SPEAKER_00]: I find those people are always attracted to people that are. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's always so strange. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Orna says, but you can see how Drea sees the problem outside of her. [SPEAKER_01]: And Nessa has maybe, on the opposite side, Nessa has maybe taken it in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe because of internalized homophobia that she has or the doubts that she has, but you can understand that Drea's anger is, she's placed in the anger in the right place. [SPEAKER_01]: I was fully ready for her. [SPEAKER_01]: throw hands like what I don't have internalized homophobia but it's there just like absolutely you absolutely right I do have a lot of homophobia and I'm like to your point is she just saying that very exuberantly to get dry and to be like oh man I just have to and then I'm curious to see because again something I wish owner asks was like have you guys had discussions about this internalized homophobia?

[SPEAKER_01]: that she's had, like how long has been has been there? [SPEAKER_01]: Is this something you guys talk through? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel, Dre, are you comfortable with someone who's not that comfortable in their sexual? [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many questions, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: But also at individual therapy, you know, I say it all the time, like this is something you got to work through, like if Dre is cool with where she's at and doesn't have internalized homophobia, then that's all you, there's nothing Dre can do about that. [SPEAKER_00]: That's 100% you have to deal with that on your own.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but she does say that she does say she's doing the video therapy because I wrote down she does confirm that she sees therapists and she's talked about it because I was like, she speaks like someone that does. [SPEAKER_01]: She speaks a lot of therapy speak. [SPEAKER_01]: So she is doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, if these people are doing individual therapy, we would know, they're not, they don't usually say it, at least in my history of the show, because I think they're focused on the couple's part, but she did say that she's in a whole bunch of therapists through the couple's part.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, she says she has conflicting thoughts about their relationship all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, God, miss. [SPEAKER_01]: Because she's in a different part of her journey now. [SPEAKER_01]: You bought a ticket and took a journey and didn't take your wife along. [SPEAKER_01]: And now we're speaking about your journey because [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I just felt like the whole vibe was like, okay, let's focus here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not talk about all these things. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's go back to why I want out of my relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm gonna drain and roll her eyes and I'm like, girl, roll it as many times as you want. [SPEAKER_01]: You have earned the right, too, because this is some bullshit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's the question, or maybe it's as dry as like, okay, you've been told very concretely that this, your partner doesn't value you. [SPEAKER_00]: So why do you want to stay? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you getting out of this? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know that this is person that's been all your first and you had all kinds of experiences with this person, but how is this serving you?

[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of feel like she's told us the answer. [SPEAKER_00]: They're grilling going anywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: She said I just like having her a rather have her in my life, hating me, than not in my life at all. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good that you can get her to be. [SPEAKER_01]: But in some way, I think Nessa has that as a safety net, knowing that Dreyah loves her that much.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why she could be me because she knows I can say whatever I want to say and drain and go in anywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why she does what she does because she has that as a safety net and she doesn't have to fear that oh, she's going to leave me so if Dre actually said I'm going to leave you I think that we shake her up and actually maybe respect her more because what's happening right now is she doesn't respect her she just thinks like she's a [SPEAKER_01]: Weakling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I try that. [SPEAKER_00]: She's an adult. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: She's. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Last break. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back for it. [SPEAKER_01]: See Anna and Chris.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: We're back. [SPEAKER_01]: I really like their session this week. [SPEAKER_01]: I really, really did. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's one. [SPEAKER_01]: But no, it was honest. [SPEAKER_01]: And I really felt for Chris because. [SPEAKER_01]: Something a lot of people take for granted is just people that have good relationships with their parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not always the case. [SPEAKER_01]: It really is. [SPEAKER_01]: And some people don't draw the lucky card when it comes to parents. [SPEAKER_01]: And people always assume that, oh, with moms, they always love you dads and the dead beats. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's that all other relationship and also addiction is a [SPEAKER_01]: It just, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I felt, I felt for him. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I'm not supposed to, but I did. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just very touching. [SPEAKER_01]: It really was, so. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I don't know if you've ever talked about this, but my mother wasn't at it. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I grew up with that a good chunk of my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: So part of me wants to understand and be supportive, but there's something about Chris that makes me like, I just have a barrier when I'm like, oh, like, we should bone it. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you should be my buddy, because we've spoken through some crazy stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: There's stuff in the bathroom, which I mean, that's what I'm doing with this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: You think you're judging a book by its cover? [SPEAKER_01]: Because he looks like he's a fuck boy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, you know, sometimes it's not fair, some people look like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he is a folk boy, but I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't take away from this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's unfortunate. [SPEAKER_01]: No, what are you talking about? [SPEAKER_00]: It's insane and what he had. [SPEAKER_00]: And you can talk, and I know you're going to talk about this. [SPEAKER_00]: So what he was insane, but I just am missing the connection. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm seeing an increase tell us that they've been a part because she has been in the city for a grad school program during the week and she goes home for the weekend.

[SPEAKER_01]: She says you've been with the girls and I'm like, wait, they had a son right when we saw it they have three kids so. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there was a boy when they showed the B room. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if he's old enough to not be in the house, but I don't know why she said you've been with the girls, but okay, so she says it's been wonderful to know that she's still a person and can still achieve things and [SPEAKER_01]: this proved to be wrong, but I just wanted to point out that at this point when she was saying like oh, I can achieve things that can do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, up until this moment, I just feel like CNR is not, she doesn't seem affected by these things. [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's just, like, this is great. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yes, at the therapy session, she was upset, you know, at the time, but she just seems fine. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe owner is right when they, when she says like both of them disassociate, you know, from different things.

[SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I was from a wrong, I guess a little bit, you know, so he says he says yeah, it's been fine and one thing that happened when she visited and owner was like raise her eyebrows, which already sky high and says visited and they're like oh wait, she's still there. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, when she came home for the weekend.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, [SPEAKER_01]: Things, he goes like things will be fine, everything will be okay, and then Sienna will just pop up and be like, how could you have done that to me? [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, he takes it because yes, he did it, but he just hurts when someone you love say that you're awful, and you know, he can't disagree.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is true that what he did was awful, and that just, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: It's not fun, but he just feels like he has to pay penance, I guess, for the rest of his life, for the rest of their marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where I said I was wrong because she's not fine. [SPEAKER_01]: She's still popping up, but in my mind, the way he plays out to me is like, they're playing with the girls, they're being like a family and everything's great, and she's like, see, we're good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why did you do this to me? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're still that blip on there, and then you get to remind it. [SPEAKER_00]: Why so at I think she did that either the last episode or the first episode where she's she's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: She's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: She's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: And until she's not and she's not the snaps, but she definitely has a shift immediately and they were she's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden she's not fine. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't know if that puts him on egg shells where he's thinking, Oh, she's over this we're good. [SPEAKER_00]: We've moved on and then oh, I slipped back. [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess the question is why does she [SPEAKER_00]: why does she snap, like why does she go back and to from calm to upset?

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the part we never know about. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the example I just gave. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you have a good time and you just, did that's the thing with triggers? [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know what's gonna trigger you. [SPEAKER_01]: You could just be having the great time and it was like, everything would be great, but I can't fool myself into thinking we're great because I thought we were great and then I found out you cheated on me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're gonna only push it down for so long and then it sprouts up like your guys are. [SPEAKER_01]: Mia, Orna says like, oh, I think I noted that this happened when she went back to work and he goes, yeah, like, maybe it was an undercurrent of maybe using some part of her and she says, I just wish you to talk to me about that and he was like, yes, I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I did because you're also great at that and. [SPEAKER_01]: It makes it worse for us, looking outside, looking from the outside because it's so hard to just understand why he did it when he all he says is all these great things about her, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: Then he goes into like his mom was explosive about anything and he just didn't want a situation where she would have blown up and he just didn't want to open that door at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in order to ask, like, is it okay now if we talk about, you know, your mom and Chris is like, oh my life, I'm waiting for this, see less. [SPEAKER_01]: I am ready because I wonder when you're going to ask me call me my turn. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought you'd never ask So he says the first time that Sienna came over to his family home His mom said and I quote I listen through the wall to hear you guys fucking and I was like, I'm not ready [SPEAKER_01]: I just went through the whole nature boy documentary.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I can do this and see it are backs him up and she's like, well, the thing is she was just really inappropriate and honestly, that statement, that was her being nice. [SPEAKER_01]: Her baseline was really unsettling. [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, like, the thing is, my mom had a hard life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And her mom was a bipolar alcoholic. [SPEAKER_01]: And she met his dad at Levi's where he was the president where she worked, which is a whole other thing we didn't talk about because if he was a president, what was she doing? [SPEAKER_01]: Because he said, she worked her way up and then got a job at Levi's.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what was the dynamic? [SPEAKER_01]: How old was she, what was age difference? [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we don't need to know. [SPEAKER_01]: But my bad habit popped up. [SPEAKER_01]: This is why it takes me forever to watch stuff because I'm googling. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, is it true? [SPEAKER_01]: It is true.

[SPEAKER_01]: His dad is Frank Bran. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was the president in the early 70s early late 70s early 80s. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Look at you detective. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I do this all the time and it's just me some my time instead of just watching.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, well, who did this? [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows this? [SPEAKER_01]: When did this happen? [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: she asked him that his mom if he's died when it kids and he told him she told him listen I don't have that motherly instincts but if you want kids we can make it happen and he's like sure we have kids I'm in a good space so then they had kids I guess they had him [SPEAKER_01]: him and then the sister and then she decided oh man we need help.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're from a well to the family in case you couldn't tell and she's like we need help and so they just didn't get help domestically they got a whole family from the kingdom of Tonga and they didn't speak a word of English they got a mother a father and a boy that was three years older than him [SPEAKER_01]: and growing up that was his family and was family for like two years.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he said but yeah, so he basically had two families. [SPEAKER_01]: He's biological family and the family from the kingdom of Tanda. [SPEAKER_01]: This is like what? [SPEAKER_00]: There's not onions in your neighborhood. [SPEAKER_00]: There's not a nice little grandma. [SPEAKER_00]: You had to bring a whole family from another country.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know where you can find it, but while I was searching for his dad and stuff and all that stuff, and IMDB for Chris popped up. [SPEAKER_01]: And there is a movie from 2013 called The Tongue and Education of Chris and Brown, which is Chris.

[SPEAKER_00]: And okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So we kept saying, why are they on this show? [SPEAKER_00]: Where are they on this show? [SPEAKER_00]: Huh. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think it's because of that because it's very deep and it's 2013 and there's nothing else and honestly unless you're a Freak as a way like me and you're trying to like Google stuff It you just won't come up [SPEAKER_01]: So when he was five, he's dad went to golf and he had a stroke and was brain dead, which I saw because when they were listing all the leave my presidency, didn't mention, oh, it was the president and until he had a stroke and he was brain dead, then when he was seven, like accidentally, I think he [SPEAKER_01]: he gave the idea to his mom that he can hold a conversation, not like a fool of dot conversation, but you know, he can understand what's going on and then she decided to start unloading on him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then by this time, she was drinking a bottle of gin. [SPEAKER_01]: This was all an effect of, I guess in a way, grieving. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't tell if it was that, [SPEAKER_01]: She loved his dad, and she was just sad this happened, or she's one of those people who, yes, she loved him, but it was more about what he could do for her, and she just was she was doing better in life with this lifestyle, with him.

[SPEAKER_00]: So she was drinking, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I was just going to say we will never know, but it's the way that he describes the relationship with so flippant like, I don't want to have kids, but if you want to, okay, so I don't know if that sounds like. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, romantic love or just this is the 70s or however old they are and this is what I'm supposed to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's do this. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to tell. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it seemed very matter of fact. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, I'm so grateful that you changed my lot in life. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want kids, I can do that for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Like she was giving.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know you don't watch Housewives, but she was giving Eric to Jane to me. [SPEAKER_01]: She was one who was married to the lawyer. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know Eric had changed. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, she was giving Eric a change to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it was a whole age difference. [SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't that Lanna, she came up in life and she was like, oh, I'm just grateful and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, he could hear her drinking a bottle of gin. [SPEAKER_01]: He would come up every night to his room. [SPEAKER_01]: He could hear her because the ice would clink in his glass and she would pause at the door and then coming to the room and just explode on him. [SPEAKER_01]: and cry and telling him like your dad just left me like you're the man of the house now and then you know when he's 21 or when he's 18 she's going to kill herself and it's just a bunch of like things that she would just drop on him and he was seven.

[SPEAKER_01]: At some point, she would beat his dad with a cane. [SPEAKER_01]: He was just in the house at this point, but he was brain dead. [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, and she would beat him with a cane. [SPEAKER_01]: She would shove food in his face, and it was just out of control. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I just kept wondering, was, again, wouldn't know family members or anyone that could have just.

[SPEAKER_01]: put a check on it, call doctor, something. [SPEAKER_00]: But also, where was this other family? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, all of this was going on. [SPEAKER_01]: They can't do anything, so they were there. [SPEAKER_01]: They were there. [SPEAKER_01]: He said what they did, they were just consoling him, but they can't, they don't speak English.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are being paid. [SPEAKER_01]: There's probably a whole immigration, what are they gonna do? [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, that's why I'm going family members, like his family members, like if anything else. [SPEAKER_01]: The he had no answer on calls. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone concerned about the children?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just what I mean, if the mom is this kind of skill that being an addict that if people did come to visit, that she probably was putting on a very different face for when people came to visit. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if everything was clean, she's hiding bruises, she's going to be sober, it's going to look fine for the people that are there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And nobody's going to know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wonder if Chris ever told anyone, you know, I'm guessing that also is why he's excited about talking about it now, yeah, so Malia, um, who is the [SPEAKER_01]: his other mom for the tongue and mom would be there and just telling him like listen, your mom is sick and she's just sad and you know, that was his whole life and at this point, Sienna is tearing up and I'm like, is this the first time she's hearing this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't, it sounds like it, but I can't be. [SPEAKER_00]: No, right? [SPEAKER_00]: With the joy and excitement that he has about telling the story, this is not the first time she's heard. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's still sad though because she loves it and it's causing him pain. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I can see why she would have a reaction to it, but no, it's certainly not the first time she's hearing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the reason why asked if anyone knows even if she's acting like everything is fine is they got a divorce and when you get a divorce people are going to Be around even if it's a lawyer or something so I don't I don't know I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I knew more about that and he and his sister moved in with their mom and he's tongue in families stayed with their dad still taking care of him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He said, by high school, it escalated. [SPEAKER_01]: And she would chase him with a butter knife because she figured out that the butter knife could unlock the door. [SPEAKER_01]: And she would say to him, I bet you have a big dick like your father and I want to see it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is, yeah, that's disturbing. [SPEAKER_00]: That's incestuous. [SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And so the addiction is a hell of a thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it seemed like there was more stuff going besides, oh yeah, so he says like when he shouted he had to stop tying you know the door with a towel just to hold it because you know she being there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know again CNN seemed like it was the first time because when he said that her eyes popped out of her head but I'm like oh [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so he was just like, you know, in his mind, he's telling himself. [SPEAKER_01]: She's sick, just stay in the course, he's fine, not she's fine, but I would be okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he says it was just so much and she would get into fist fights with her boyfriend. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I'm like, wait, she got boyfriend? [SPEAKER_01]: You been surprised. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're you. [SPEAKER_01]: So he's just kind of brushing up like, yeah, there's so much more, but that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Orner was like, okay, slow down. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm overwhelmed. [SPEAKER_00]: CNN's like, I am too. [SPEAKER_01]: Orner asks how he's doing and he says, I'm fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, while he was telling it, he didn't feel anything except excitement at saying like, for people to see how fucked up this is as he's saying it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of us like, okay, do you remember how you felt then? [SPEAKER_01]: He says yes, and that's when the dissociation started. [SPEAKER_01]: And to him, he's just like, get over it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he had a stroke, yes, he left you, but at least he left you with money, like do something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do the Jane Fonda, get a perm, I was like, there's so random. [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what he does when he has to shark eyes like he just hurls his random insults and they're so specific like you go to Pilates, but then you get on me for doing dishes like it's just very specific. [SPEAKER_01]: And he says like, yeah, he says he does like the Malia and Malias again, his tongue and mom is she's just keep telling him it's just how it is and I love you and I'm here for you and see and I just you know scoots over leans over and hugs and kisses him.

[SPEAKER_01]: While she's doing this, he didn't miss a beat in his storytelling. [SPEAKER_01]: He just kept going, like, or do like you also anything. [SPEAKER_01]: And he says the shit that he was doing in terms of like the cuddling session, that he felt like there was some kind of thread because they paid Malia a salary to live with them, but there was love.

[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, she was still in employee, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I got it because I was like, ooh, I get it. [SPEAKER_01]: But then CNN was like, wait, when's that got to do anything? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't get it. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't understand the correlation.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he says, like, you're still paying someone but you're paying someone because you want them to like you and think you're a good person, but it's a microcosm of that dynamic. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was like, ooh, I don't got it. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get it. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't help, so I like that you were ready to be there for him, though, Tane.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's just a joke. [SPEAKER_00]: I was a hero. [SPEAKER_01]: I just, whoa, what I thought was like what he meant was like in his mind, the person that you pay was better to give you love and was your safe space than the person that was by blood or the person that you think she'd love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was the correlation and seeking some kind of haven. [SPEAKER_01]: through paying someone like either way I paid someone but they still love me. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that's what he was gonna say, but I don't I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted someone to think it was a good person.

[SPEAKER_01]: His wife thinks this is a good person. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: The insanity behind Chris and this is the part that I can't like get behind and feel like what he went through is heinous and I'd be real curious to see what his sister is like. [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't just like I don't you don't it's not you don't have this like a sure you you went to this terrible thing and you had support by this other family, which is great. [SPEAKER_00]: But you're in a family now and you have support by your wife from all intends to purposes he never has said she's not there for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: We see physically and I don't think she's putting it on just to be on TV. [SPEAKER_00]: I think she truly does see him and she pays attention to him and she pays attention to his reactions and [SPEAKER_00]: she's able to provide him with some kind of solace when he needs it. [SPEAKER_00]: So I just, I'm missing the part where this crazy story about your family has anything to do with you cheating on your wife.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not seeing that connection. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a keen kind of see it. [SPEAKER_01]: Help me. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just attractive. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just attracted to the chaos. [SPEAKER_01]: Like if everything is going to well, like you would always choose, oh, what is the thing I read somewhere?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you'd rather choose the familiarity of chaos than the unfamiliarity of peace. [SPEAKER_01]: And your body's consciously will always go to what you know. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe things were good. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's just like, I'm not deserving. [SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't make any sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he just... [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, did that, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Human beings are sometimes unexplainable super-worked. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: So then he turned red and he says like he's exhausted. [SPEAKER_01]: He says when they first started dating, he wasn't a bad space and she says no.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, you don't want any part of this. [SPEAKER_01]: Stay far away from me, she's and she wouldn't. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, okay, if you look me in the eye and say, she said, if you look me in the eye and say, you don't love me then I'll leave. [SPEAKER_01]: But, [SPEAKER_01]: loved her so he did say he loved her and that he would lay in her look and she would pack him and she was there for all of that and then then he gets emotional and then he starts crying and then he says, I really fucking hurt you and I'm so mad at myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: He says, it's not okay but she holds in and says, I love you and Anna just lets them be. [SPEAKER_01]: This is nothing to be said. [SPEAKER_01]: at this point, you know, that just let them sit in their emotions. [SPEAKER_01]: He's already like, you know, getting himself up. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you, the wall with Chris is like, maybe you think his disingenuous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not speaking for it. [SPEAKER_01]: My guess from what you're saying is that you feel like he's coming up with this excuses, but maybe he's just a shady person. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's the [SPEAKER_00]: And I agree, like I think there's some area of I grew up in chaos and so being out of chaos feels weird because I definitely have that in my picture effort.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, where it might be normal for somebody else. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I get it. [SPEAKER_00]: I get all there's a hundred things about his situation that I understand. [SPEAKER_00]: I just cannot get to the point where I understand how this is cheating how cheating on his wife. [SPEAKER_00]: is a result of all of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think if he, because he went to these cuddling sessions and he went to someplace that was objectively peaceful. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're somebody who understands chaos, cuddling is the opposite of chaos. [SPEAKER_00]: Cuddling is where, where, [SPEAKER_00]: being quiet and we're being loving and whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if he went out and just had three terms and was doing math and just bunk and what do you call it, prostitutes, that makes sense to me. [SPEAKER_00]: Having this very intimate relationship that is against your wife doesn't make sense to me. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not supposed to make sense to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't my therapy session. [SPEAKER_00]: This is his, but I just can't get behind the reason. [SPEAKER_01]: was skipping many steps. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: One already going. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, you're fine. [SPEAKER_01]: Already going for a cuddling session when you have a wife that's willing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not a peaceful anything. [SPEAKER_01]: That is the beginning of chaos. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you remember last episode, I said like I'm 1000% sure he did not go there just for cuddling. [SPEAKER_01]: The goal was always to go further. [SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't a peaceful anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't it that was the first step. [SPEAKER_01]: He was still trying to convince himself like, no, I'm not going to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a good person. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a good person. [SPEAKER_01]: It's in a sense. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just cuddling. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what he was doing for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, ultimately, he knew that it was going to lead into something. [SPEAKER_00]: That's so. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm glad that they ended there. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I could have handled a Clinton and shade session after this. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's absolutely not my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Life can be hard and life can be cruel. [SPEAKER_01]: But also life can be beautiful because he did find a partner who loves him and he went and ran and messed that up. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know and I missed I don't I missed where this fell in a fell into the episode, but I wrote a note about this where Chris said, I know that I fucked her up because I read her journals.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, miss that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, say, what sir, why you read her journal? [SPEAKER_00]: Did you read her, and I don't remember the context, like, did he read her journals while she was at a town? [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, bro, you've already kind of, you know, both in the trust.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: You've already broken your trust. [SPEAKER_00]: And now you're reading her journals. [SPEAKER_00]: Further breaking her trust. [SPEAKER_00]: What does it matter with you? [SPEAKER_00]: How did I miss that? [SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty important. [SPEAKER_00]: In order to say nothing, uh, you know, and I'm deep in my feelings with Chris, so I don't remember what she said, but I was just like, bro, that's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have to watch it again, because I don't know how I miss that. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I want you to get to see where it came from, but I just heard it down and I was like, you are the most. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that was it guys, that is the episode this week, so stay tuned, let me know what you think, let me know all your thoughts on these couples and we'll be back next week to recap episode four and I'm pretty sure she and Clinton will be back, so we'll see how that goes.

Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 3 w/Jenn

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