Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 6 w/Jenn

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Couples Therapy Season 5, talking about episode 6. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Tane. [SPEAKER_01]: Here is always with me, is Jen. [SPEAKER_01]: Hi Jen, how are you? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, I'm not ready for this emotional roller coaster last week.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt good and then this week, I'm feeling something different. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, these people are putting me through it, but I'm ready. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was heavy. [SPEAKER_01]: They did good by putting Chris and Sienna last because that was a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: a whole lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel that they also do not quite enjoy shame Clinton. [SPEAKER_01]: I always feel like they just rushed you. [SPEAKER_01]: There's like here, let's just get them and then that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not complaining because they dream now. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they're, they're a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like even when they walk in, their body language and they walk in, it's like, oh, no, what the happened now. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we start, just reminding you guys, patreon.com slash taintalks, T.A. [SPEAKER_01]: Y. and E, T.A. [SPEAKER_01]: L. K. S. You can find bonus episodes on there.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can find out for you regular episodes. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find video episodes sometimes up on my face out there. [SPEAKER_01]: with my guests and you can find them on Patreon. [SPEAKER_01]: The last bonus episodes I am covering the season season three of 90 day fiancee, the last resort and these people are time.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are insane, but they are time, and I am amused by them. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm covering that over there and also just cover the documentary maternal instinct because we are walking among people who are out there in the world. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I mean, and I remember that story when it happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I have it on my list of things to watch and I don't want to listen to your episode, but I'm just like, what is happening? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes, people are wild. [SPEAKER_01]: Not for it to be a spoiler alert, but part of my gripe of what's going on in a lot of the documentaries that we're now seeing lately is that they really don't get into half or quarter of the stuff that really happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you kind of have to piece through and watch other things just to figure out [SPEAKER_01]: So this happens here. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's where the watch just like, wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, as we mentioned at the top of the episode, do you start with Shay and Clinton? [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh boy, we are starting with them, but you know what, that's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just get it out the way, let it come through. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like, it does not look good because Clinton comes into the hallway, looking dejected. [SPEAKER_01]: And then Shay comes in separately and they say hi, he's not looking at her and then I steal myself, I find myself going, oh my god, I'm not ready for this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean kind of wonder, I mean I guess they have to show up because they're contractually obligated, but it definitely gave Richard Sherman, I'm here, so I don't get fine vibes and it was just like, oh no and poor owner is in this nice white. [SPEAKER_00]: outfit. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, girl, you have no idea what's happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, carry there about the person, some blood on that outfit. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is the case. [SPEAKER_01]: She's all like, hi, how are you? [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, ah, well, Jason's on bothered though. [SPEAKER_01]: She just comes in. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe she's just so angry.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was reading that as I'm bothered. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: Orna is like, what's up? [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't say that, but abbreviation. [SPEAKER_00]: That's my interpretation. [SPEAKER_01]: And Klic says, she didn't do anything. [SPEAKER_01]: Klic says, it took two days after her last session for a society fighting again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Orna is like, OK, what happened? [SPEAKER_01]: That they were talking about the open relationship aspect of it all. [SPEAKER_01]: This has been a critique of mine of the season. [SPEAKER_00]: Jen, have they mentioned that they're in an open relationship? [SPEAKER_00]: No, but also, do you guys need more stuff to add to this?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you have a lot going on. [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you adding more? [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, excuse me. [SPEAKER_01]: We were not going to hold about this. [SPEAKER_01]: Or no, I don't think you're shocked enough for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Because now I'm acting like I should do this. [SPEAKER_01]: This is how Marjorie and Jason who are not featured this time came last time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yeah, they came to pick up Shelby and then Ryan and I'm like, okay, who is people? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we'll just keep up and we'll keep moving on with them. [SPEAKER_01]: There's an open relationship aspect of top of everything else. [SPEAKER_00]: That's with these two, with these two, there's too many things to keep [SPEAKER_01]: She asked them, okay, tell me about the parameters of your relationship and She has reverted to her matter of fact tone and said at the beginning of their relationship She was seeing someone else and he was very aware of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: She stopped it because Clinton wanted monogamy. [SPEAKER_01]: She agreed for a good amount of time. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what happened. [SPEAKER_01]: They were just going along with the monogamy. [SPEAKER_01]: I guess you were saying that to say it wasn't really what I wanted but I loved him.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's what he wanted. [SPEAKER_01]: So sure. [SPEAKER_01]: I did that. [SPEAKER_01]: Then she says very casually too. [SPEAKER_01]: I was not getting my needs met, but I still wanted to have sex and I'm capable of separating the two and he agreed to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, we're going to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm like, or not? [SPEAKER_01]: Are we gonna ask, what does that mean like, are we not having said what, but there's no answer. [SPEAKER_00]: And Clinton was just was a rocket. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like, oh, you, I mean, he's got something to say.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I know sometimes you can't stop everything to. [SPEAKER_00]: give attention to him and normally or it does a really good job of kind of making sure he doesn't take over the session, but he has something to say. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, but even before he has something to say, like, she still has a way to always go in, but it doesn't even look like she had that question.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for me to follow the story, he's still reeling from the fact that I didn't know there was an open relationship aspect. [SPEAKER_01]: And then that the reason why they went into that is [SPEAKER_01]: No, that was a bummer I got to tell you because this is a huge piece that I would like to be filled.

[SPEAKER_01]: No pun intended, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: So, she said, except for the fact, [SPEAKER_01]: That Clinton has not followed the rules and then that he was speaking and he was talking to two people and at this point Like Jen said Clinton is making faces. [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, no, what and she is like, it's okay I'll tell her how I found out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not ashamed and before she could have been finished for a sentence. [SPEAKER_01]: He's like like She went through my damn fall when I was sleeping and then she's like, I think you know [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care how you found out. [SPEAKER_00]: I just, I love, I love that for her. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that for her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like can we not the the minutia of this is none of my dampness. [SPEAKER_00]: Like what is it? [SPEAKER_00]: Like let's get to the core of this because you know, if you let them the two of them will go back and forth all day about the minutia of it, the I did this. [SPEAKER_00]: You did that.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I didn't, yes, you didn't know you didn't. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I definitely had to call that out. [SPEAKER_00]: So [SPEAKER_01]: So Shane continues and she says like he met up with two women and they're in an open relationship So there's nothing to hide like he could just be an upfront about it, but like I don't know I think it's a disease with men.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just want to lie like I don't even know you're an open relationship You could just mention that hey, I'm talking to this person and [SPEAKER_01]: whatever the case may be in this situation. [SPEAKER_01]: He said, the first time I told her about it, the second time, the person was working near my house and we just met up and I didn't get a chance to tell her and I'm like, Clinton, this is weak, weak sauce.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because let's just assume this is true and she just happened to come near your house. [SPEAKER_01]: It takes five seconds to send a text. [SPEAKER_01]: Even after it happened, I'm sure you've seen her. [SPEAKER_01]: You could have said, hey, by the way, I met up with this person and it just happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: But just full transparency just wanted to that you know, sorry, I didn't get a chance to tell you, like a lot of things, but, you know, Clinton says that, you know, she was working there his house, like they had to have been a whole conversation to find out for the person to know where you're working for you to know they were close to you for you to give directions on where to meet in all of that time you could shot your girlfriend a quick text.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and also, and again, I'm not trying to be on anybody side here, but [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, is she easy to talk to, but also, I just, I don't know, it's a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: too much. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're going to get her rough anyway. [SPEAKER_01]: You might as well get it for telling you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this person, he mentions, was also in the beginning of their transition and they met in one of his meet-up groups that is for newer divergent people and Clinton says like they were just showing off some of their stuff like in the midst of their transition, [SPEAKER_01]: They were half naked photos, by the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, okay, Clinton, you are missing out a lot of things. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I was just, I was just helping her put out clothes. [SPEAKER_01]: What? [SPEAKER_01]: It was beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: So he says, yeah, I was just encouraging her. [SPEAKER_01]: And he understands like how we could be misunderstood.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like he was doing something behind her back. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it created mistrust and misunderstanding. [SPEAKER_01]: She is like, there's no misunderstanding here. [SPEAKER_01]: I understood quite completely what was happening. [SPEAKER_01]: On our, like, okay, I'm trying to figure out what is the issue with the open relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, okay, I jumped on a discord and you're familiar with discord, right? [SPEAKER_00]: No, man, I am old. [SPEAKER_00]: This sounds like one of those apps where messages disappear. [SPEAKER_00]: So no, what is this? [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's like a like a forum where you can go on there and then you can chat and then you just have like group messaging and you talk about stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a member for like a book club like the desert group in my city where you can do audio book walks. [SPEAKER_01]: So we meet there to find like the location and then we're going to meet. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's basically like a chat forum. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the best way to put it. [SPEAKER_00]: okay so yeah but also it's it was like he's exclusively in one for trans people but he's not trans so I got super confused with that no he's on that I thought he said it was for newer divergent people but they happen to be a lot of kids oh that was for the media yeah [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So many things. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So they didn't tell us. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: You're right. [SPEAKER_01]: You're right. [SPEAKER_01]: Because they didn't tell us what the group was on discord. [SPEAKER_01]: They told us he told us for the meetup group that it was for neurodivergent people.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for the discord, I don't think I know what the group is about. [SPEAKER_01]: But he does say that he's excited about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he's randomly just talking to people, like in a new community, [SPEAKER_01]: learning new things and yes, there's a lot of trans women in this group.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I get what you're saying, because he dates trans women. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like are you in it because it's a pool for you to find people to date or are you really there to learn new things or maybe all of the above? [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: So she says that he's not casually talking to these people and he's like, I'm not lying and she goes, yes, you are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you are because I can pull up the receipts that you're lying. [SPEAKER_01]: And Glenn is like, do you hear that? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you hear her threatening me? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but she just said she had receipts. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you can't help how you interpret things.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that's what happened, but did you see it as a threat? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it feels like a threat when you're wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like a threat when you're caught. [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like a threat when you know, you're doing stuff you're not supposed to be doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think it was, but I could see how Clinton would feel like it is. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's tough because we're getting, again, we're getting calm, collected, Shay. [SPEAKER_00]: We have no idea what these are like in real time is she this, [SPEAKER_00]: calm-collected shape when they're having these conversations or she a different person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I part of me feels like it's a different person, which is why he potentially other than just being a liar-lier face is so hesitant about approaching her and being honest with her because to your point, he's just going to face the wrath anyway. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't think she's a different person because you say cool calm and collected, [SPEAKER_01]: are off like it's like the tone is unmistakable and it is a little a tad like scary like I would be scared to be like oh that like this is what I think when he says that there's shades of her mom in her I think this is what it is because yes she's being cool and calm but you can not mistake what she's saying in the tone and everything that she's saying like she's seeping while she's saying this things so she's like I can prove it

[SPEAKER_01]: I have receipts and she picks up her phone, no he says like even in the group. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, at this point, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: When she said, do you hear her threatening me? [SPEAKER_01]: Honour is like, nah, like I don't like this. [SPEAKER_01]: My mom should get to me and I'm tired of this shit.

[SPEAKER_01]: And all this while, Honour is just like Clinton stop, stop. [SPEAKER_01]: And Honour says, well, you guys are both going to tell each other what matters to you about what's going on here. [SPEAKER_01]: Like stop arguing about facts and semantics and what's said in this said, like we need to figure out the root of what's making both of you upset.

[SPEAKER_01]: She says he's been seeing a girl in the group and he has said in this same group that he has two girlfriends. [SPEAKER_01]: Then he's like, I don't think so. [SPEAKER_01]: Like show me then she picks up her phone to show us what it is and I'm like girl. [SPEAKER_01]: You should have screenshot that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Had it saved so that when he comes up you just like here because we had to watch for like a few minutes and she was scrolling and looking for it. [SPEAKER_01]: And it took so much time and order was like, okay, wow, she's scrolling. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you Clinton want to say what you discovered?

[SPEAKER_01]: He says that, um, no, sorry, she continues and was like, he has been having an intimate relationship with this girl and he has been talking about vulnerable details of she's life in the group without asking her and saying that, oh, he's doing it under the guise of helping people. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a red flag flag on the play.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is horrible. [SPEAKER_01]: This is like a such a huge [SPEAKER_01]: on what scale do you judge him by because is he aware? [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'm not fully 100% I don't understand where he lies on the spectrum of his diagnosis, his autism diagnosis. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if he's aware that this is such a huge brick of trust and it's not okay or if he feels like, oh, I have this experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can be out there, I'm helping people or he's just in the high of [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, for once, I'm the one that has the knowledge, not realize that you're sharing someone's private information. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, great. [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I took it as. [SPEAKER_00]: I took it as, especially after everything that happened with the credit card issue, especially everything that happened with that with the, was it her laptop cord or he made the suggestion for the cord and she was like, no, pick the other one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like he's really just looking for a win. [SPEAKER_00]: And he wants to be helpful and he wants to be in a position where he feels like he's valued and I don't know if he's getting that from his relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: So it sounds like he's getting that from other places and I don't think he thought about the ethics of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought I think he feels like, oh, this feels good. [SPEAKER_00]: I have something to add. [SPEAKER_00]: and people are coming to me, and people are showing me their outfits. [SPEAKER_00]: Like it really just feels like I'm in a place where I feel valued. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm a little sad that that wasn't addressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he is where I'm confused again because if he's having an intimate relationship with a girl, I guess she wasn't clear if it was just an emotional intimacy or if it's like physical intimacy because I'm like, so if he's having sex with her, why are they, are they not having sex or is he that they're having sex but her needs are not being, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I can hear you. [SPEAKER_00]: I, and I took it as maybe like when this conversation happened, that maybe they were in a slump. [SPEAKER_00]: And this was a way to address that slump. [SPEAKER_00]: And then they just continued with it. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, we don't have any context into when this happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, obviously it's going on now. [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, what was the parameters of it? [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, Orna said, like, what matters to you, [SPEAKER_01]: she asked what matters to you about what's going on here and she asked it but then they got stuck in her minutiae again so it's like a dig it yeah um he says that um he understands and Orna was like okay say it back what do you understand from what she said but he actually did he says it back and he was like he seems to understand and he says I'm sorry like I apologize like [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm mad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mad that he's emotionally tying himself to people who aren't there, and she's here. [SPEAKER_01]: She has fed him emotionally, spiritually, physically, and the audacity of him to use her story and share that with other people. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna take a quick break, and I'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm back. [SPEAKER_01]: So Clinton is like, [SPEAKER_01]: Can I see that he's still stuck on that text? [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, can I see what that text says? [SPEAKER_01]: Cause there might be context. [SPEAKER_01]: I might, you know, I don't think I really did it. [SPEAKER_01]: Really say that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Halaloo, she found it, hasn't, it is ready to go. [SPEAKER_01]: And then he gives it to her. [SPEAKER_01]: Honor is saying like, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: what is um what part is most painful to you Shay and basically she barks this out honestly I can't say that she said it she barks can't even be honest with me in an open relationship and and the background Clinton is still reading and I'm like is taking a little too long to read that she must he must be in the wrong and then when they turn to him he's like [SPEAKER_00]: which is like, bro, but also you wrote this.

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you not remember what you wrote? [SPEAKER_00]: How many conversations are you having that you can't remember that you've said this very specific thing? [SPEAKER_00]: And also this very specific thing that you know that she's read. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So, what? [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man. [SPEAKER_01]: But also, I mean, the other thing that was also skipped, which, again, I understand. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a long session, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And they can't put everything in there. [SPEAKER_01]: Is yes? [SPEAKER_01]: She went through his phone. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, she might have said, oh, it was going off incessantly, well, tell him to turn it off or tell him, hey, your phone's ringing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, someone's phone going off. [SPEAKER_01]: Some may disagree, doesn't mean, oh, it's free for all. [SPEAKER_01]: That means I can go through your phone. [SPEAKER_01]: It goes through everything that is her invading his privacy. [SPEAKER_01]: And then for her to have it enough to have screenshots, enough to have had it and download it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is on the discord, not the text, and everything, I'm like, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: What are we doing in a relationship if we are getting information from each other without knowledge? [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a good sign. [SPEAKER_00]: And the words that she used were so pointed where she was when she was upset and she was talking about, I feed you spiritually, I feed you this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, this is what you bring to my table. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know why that stuck out in my head. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, okay, we're at the Shea Show. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a big deal. [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is what you bring to my table and her table in whatever that means to her is you're not bringing what I need.

[SPEAKER_00]: So why are you in this relationship? [SPEAKER_00]: You can't trust him. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys aren't intimate. [SPEAKER_00]: You can't rely on him. [SPEAKER_00]: He's getting his validation from outside. [SPEAKER_00]: What are we working for? [SPEAKER_00]: What are we fighting for here?

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to get through their segment. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to share what I think, and then you let me know, please, which thing is that? [SPEAKER_01]: So, Arna says, okay, he says I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, yeah, like, I don't know if I accept that, sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's a, I'm caught now, so I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Arna says, okay, we can agree that talking right now [SPEAKER_01]: So I have homework for you. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, yay, homework. [SPEAKER_01]: There we're never going to see the bottle up or the bottle through with that. [SPEAKER_01]: And then she tells them, like, I'm going to let you read a letter.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, you guys write a letter to each other. [SPEAKER_01]: No more than 250 words, no insults, no cynicism, and just let's see, get your words out there, get your feelings out there, and then we'll see, you know, what happens. [SPEAKER_01]: And shape practically like storms out, like she just leaves.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if they're going to talk to each other this week. [SPEAKER_01]: So then we see Orna talking to Virginia and telling her about discord and telling her how he developed emotional intimacy which breaks the rules. [SPEAKER_01]: Because it also when she said that, that's when I realized that they never actually said what the rules, or maybe did she?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you recall her saying the rules up there? [SPEAKER_01]: Really? [SPEAKER_00]: No, no. [SPEAKER_00]: And either it was cut out, or we were so busy in the minutiav who did what you said, what that we missed it. [SPEAKER_00]: But no. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was the first time I was hearing that what the rules were was like, don't get close emotionally Well, I guess we can infer that because she was saying I can separate the two But she wasn't saying if thinking back when she was talking about their open relationship She wasn't saying we can she kept saying I can separate the two So then I can have sex or whatever, but can Clinton separate?

[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously not since he's, you know, whatever relationship he's engaged with with these additional people, it seems like he's gone to an emotional place, at least emotional enough to call somebody else's girlfriend. [SPEAKER_00]: So he's violated whatever terms of their agreement, A by lying, but then B by changing the nature of their relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because again, she said to your point that she can separate the emotion from the sex. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think he can. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's one of those things where I think she called the shots, and did you sweat with it? [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, she's saying like how he developed emotional intimacy, and his attention is now going there instead of going to shape.

[SPEAKER_01]: Virginia says that the feeling she has is that Clinton is overwhelmed by shape. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I can agree with that, I think so. [SPEAKER_01]: She knows too much, she knows everything, and so he may need another domain. [SPEAKER_01]: and have his own thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we see them just have dinner separately, him at home.

[SPEAKER_01]: She had a very nice restaurant. [SPEAKER_01]: And then they edited like Nesson and Dre are also there because she looks across and then we just see them having dinner. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh my God, it's the first. [SPEAKER_01]: They're meeting each other and they're gonna show it on there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the case. [SPEAKER_01]: They transitioned into Nesson and Dre, but before we go in there, I'm gonna share what my theory on these two are. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just read a book by Elizabeth Gilbert, some of you may know her best from, she's a person who he pre love, which was about her life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the book is all the way to the river. [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a memoir where she talks about her life. [SPEAKER_01]: and her relationship with her, I don't know if they got married, her partner who died from cancer. [SPEAKER_01]: And just the last years and all the way, all the things that happened in between the addictions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she shares about being a, now her partner was a actual drug addicts like drugs. [SPEAKER_01]: She shares about being a sex and love addict. [SPEAKER_01]: And I got to tell you that I have never, you know, they talk about sex addicts all the time, but for me, it's in the context of celebrities who cheat and they've gone to rehab for sex addiction.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's about the level of what I know. [SPEAKER_01]: So I've never seen anyone talk about it the way she has, and she talks basically about how, [SPEAKER_01]: She puts all her emotional needs on someone and she just wants that validated She actually went to rehab for this. [SPEAKER_01]: She says that like when she's in this zone and in that addiction Which is why for those of you remember for April love she met someone she was together before she got with this partner [SPEAKER_01]: She was married to someone and, you know, this was her best friend and once she got that diagnosis, she decided like, no, I love this person and it was her best friend, but she was doing everything to make her life easier, like even giving her a house.

[SPEAKER_01]: When she even got diagnosed and she wanted to be like, oh, I want to roll that shoe by the Rolex for her, even though she's dying and she didn't need it. [SPEAKER_01]: But she described how losing, like when she's in it, she [SPEAKER_01]: she abandoned her boundaries to constantly please others and go to extreme lengths just to secure validation and connection.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like in her mind, as long as I'm partnered with someone and I'm taking care of them, like I feel some kind of validation. [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the things she mentioned is like the black-off phenomenon, where she has explained that she gets so swept up in a partner that again, she loses all judgment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like even sometimes she wakes up [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it, is it clicking yet or I keep going? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I, I started that book, so I know, okay, exactly what you're talking about because I'm very good. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't read, you pretty love, but I did start this book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: And. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and no, I guess there's an element of Wait, and again, I didn't let me let me just let me just I've just tried to make sure like I haven't lost you yet with all that I'm just letting you out to say so this is the closest for me to understanding why she is with Clinton Because we've been asking this question right why she with him she's not getting anything out of it what is she getting out of it but if she is [SPEAKER_01]: In some way, kind of addicted to it and having that validation that I have a partner that I have the upper hand on and I can take care of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that Virginia is right that while he's trying to find himself, he's finding other avenues. [SPEAKER_01]: There are other people who are finding him interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: She is scared. [SPEAKER_01]: She is scared that she's not going to hold that position. [SPEAKER_01]: She was basically his savior.

[SPEAKER_01]: She got him out of his mom's house. [SPEAKER_01]: She got him out of debt by paying all his credit cards and all that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, he looks at her like, oh my God, like she's the one who knows stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: But lately, as he's being into group, we've heard him say, even the fight about the phone charger, it was him saying, like, I have ideas too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me when they talk about their mom, he's like, [SPEAKER_01]: Help me, you don't have to do the taking care of. [SPEAKER_01]: I can do it too. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think like Shay's scare that she's going to lose that power, he's going to find something. [SPEAKER_01]: And then at some point remember when she yelled and said, I've invested emotionally and done then or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's something Gilbert mentions in her book that I'm doing these things and it seems like, oh, I'm being benevolent and I love you, but I'm expecting a return like you owe me. [SPEAKER_01]: fight life. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I did this. [SPEAKER_01]: So you should look at me like I'm your thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like someone, and I think that part of the fear that she has is like, he's going to find himself. [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to realize like, I don't have to be this. [SPEAKER_01]: Someone will appreciate it and it will be a partnership and someone will reap the benefits of the investment that she has put in everything in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think? [SPEAKER_00]: I, A, I love you to death for being a little of this investment in it and finding kind of outside resources to kind of figure out why this situation is happening. [SPEAKER_00]: I love you so much. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I hear what you're saying. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that it does make sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think when you're trying, especially when we're not in the room and we're not hearing the whole story to try to figure it out. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, here's something else that I'm familiar with that I can. [SPEAKER_00]: makes sense of what's happening here. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the hardest part for Shay and that's the part we need to dig into or Orina, I hope digs into.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, why are you doing this? [SPEAKER_00]: You've come in here and all of these things feel negative. [SPEAKER_00]: They feel heavy, they feel draining. [SPEAKER_00]: they for all of this. [SPEAKER_00]: So why are you still here? [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's a question that Orma needs to ask, and maybe she hasn't thought of.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it might be all of those things, if you're saying that she's a love addict, it might be that, hey, she was abandoned by her mother, and she doesn't want to do that to somebody else. [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, she's also saying, I'm used to somebody who's different. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm used to somebody who's one mature, who's more established, who's more stable, who's more this, more who's more this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if I can't marry the two things of [SPEAKER_01]: stay with that and not feel like I'm settling because when she stays with the people who are a moment sure and more established, she's not the upper hand in the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't get to be the upper hand. [SPEAKER_01]: She's the one who knows less, makes less money, has less and the other person gets to do it, and she needs to be in control.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's my, but if she, but if she, if she, if she this frustrated, if she that frustrated as she is this relationship, what she less frustrated than the other, and that's what she's got to figure out, or we've got to orna has to dig out. [SPEAKER_00]: But I hear what you're saying and it does make sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Good on you. [SPEAKER_01]: You are a therapist. [SPEAKER_01]: Look at you. [SPEAKER_01]: You are an armchair expert. [SPEAKER_01]: No, because it really, really, truly, I wish that we get there. [SPEAKER_01]: But it really, truly doesn't make any sense why she's in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I get now it makes sense that the open relationship is an outlet. [SPEAKER_01]: Like whatever it is that she's not getting, she can also kind of get it from there. [SPEAKER_01]: Because yes, she's saying that I can separate the two, but we don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Is Clinton going through her phone?

[SPEAKER_01]: Even if she establishes an emotional intimacy, [SPEAKER_01]: Right, because it's on her terms, like she's the one who has to dictate, you know, what's going on at the time, but all that being said, why you lie, Clinton, like you know, you'll matter what happens, and you can't even say that he's scared or anything because he'd be yelling back to, so no, stop lying, you have an out, you have everything that you can say, like, please just try, you know, so.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, maybe he just did. [SPEAKER_00]: It might be his default for, you know, he went undiagnosed for so long that maybe his default to reacting to things when he's confronted with them at a lie. [SPEAKER_00]: Or it could be just because he's a man. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but this is something that has served him in some way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it needs to un-serve him or figure out a way to serve him in a way that's better manage in this relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we know why he's cliche, he's the one getting the benefits, but also I think the psychological part is also like he's dating his mother, whether he realizes that or not there's been so many times where he brings up like I went through this with my mother including this episode and kind of like when people say like you date your father, whether subconsciously or not, it's what's familiar.

[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately in our lives and in our patterns, [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I'll take a quick break before we talk for Dre and Nessar, my face. [SPEAKER_01]: We're back, Jenna's a hater. [SPEAKER_01]: They just, I'm just fascinated by them. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by them, I'm fascinated by them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying they've been great. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like when I watch Clinton and Shay, like I just, I mean, somebody argued that for Dre and Nessar honestly through you, but I'm just fascinated because again, I don't know what's gonna come out of their mouth each time. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about you, but I feel like this episode or this session happened before last week's episode because I was so confused.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought, yeah, no, they cut it. [SPEAKER_00]: They cut it a couple different times where they were wearing different clothes. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, something was happening or this is just the nature of their relationship where one step forward 115 steps back. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think they started in the beginning how they usually do with something that happened before and then we actually came back to the actual, um, Yeah, they they showed an old session. [SPEAKER_01]: We got to see owner with her peers and then we had actual therapy in different clothes in current day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a cure goods and so that's what the clothes situation was. [SPEAKER_01]: So, gotcha. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the drain is back as a narrator and taint that, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, sorry, it's Nessa. [SPEAKER_01]: Dre is never an narrator until she decides that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to fill in the blanks because Nessa is leaving things out. [SPEAKER_00]: Nessa is back as an narrator and was describing how Dre was having a bad day and she just looked at her and is like, oh my God, what's wrong now? [SPEAKER_01]: How can I make it better? [SPEAKER_01]: And her first thought is like, I need to escape from this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, the use of the word escape is way too much in this marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: I just, [SPEAKER_01]: What, Jad does not deserve to hear how many times that said just does not want to be in her presence? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's true. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if I have to give Roanessa credit for anything, it's being honest.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's no ambiguity in what she means. [SPEAKER_00]: When she said escape, that was none of the state. [SPEAKER_00]: And she said escape. [SPEAKER_00]: She was like, oh, no, you look grumpy. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to another Caribbean festival. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm out. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Orna says, you are talking about yourself, not Dreya, which is like if she's in a mood or she's tired, you feel compelled to do something about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she goes, yeah, like it's just a pattern that's played out for so long and it's just what I resort to. [SPEAKER_01]: She says she used to do it for her mom. [SPEAKER_01]: Like sometimes she wouldn't go out and play because she knew like her mom was sad. [SPEAKER_01]: And Orna is like, you would kind of like your mom's therapist and she's like, kind of, I like she would tell me a dull stuff, but, you know, I'll be there for her and I'll listen.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Orna is sharing about this pattern. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, this is an old session that Orna is just drawing from it to tell the peers about what, you know, she knows about them. [SPEAKER_01]: And that she needs to know how they can separate out of hurt, not out of desire to separate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Orna says like, um, why this is happening, we are still not completely clear, but orna wants them to cut the umbilical cord and have them be separate individuals, which again was a little frustrating in the order that it was served because last week we saw them actually separate where Dre and talks about, oh, I did stuff and she's like, oh, I went separate and I found her attractive.

[SPEAKER_01]: So watching it in this order is just kind of like, [SPEAKER_01]: So is therapy time? [SPEAKER_01]: We are back to present day. [SPEAKER_01]: They're both here for therapy and Drey is like, yeah, I feel like things are good. [SPEAKER_01]: They go from playful, but then all of a sudden is switches to getting the cold shoulder and on our ass, when was the last time it happened?

[SPEAKER_01]: She says four days ago. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, remember the last episode was, they were good, someone went didn't see each other and because Nessa felt like Dreha was wearing sleepwear that implied she wouldn't have buy on chicken last while, she even went to go play video games and Nessa was like, so weird.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so funny because that happened last week with Chris when, yeah, yeah, I was like, let's go and he was like, I'm tired. [SPEAKER_01]: So, next I was just like, yeah, I don't want to do something because she wants to, and I also didn't want to be distant, but we were in the same room.

[SPEAKER_01]: But again, remember guys, they just had sex, they were making each other feel better. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is just how did we go from here to there. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, remember last week, guys, they took us on a roller coaster because the one before, they were separating. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, guys, keeping us on our toes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know I said, this is why I like them. [SPEAKER_01]: You just never know. [SPEAKER_01]: We're just playing, you know, that dance game when you go to their arcade and you're just jumping around trying to follow the lights and do it dance. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they do with us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sam's dance revolution. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's there. [SPEAKER_01]: So Jay has says, like, I didn't do all of that to entice you and you're pissing me off and then they start talking over each other because one thing about Nessa, she will always try to drive her point home like nope, you are not going to misunderstand me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying what I'm saying voices are raised on her is like, stop, stop. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, you know how reality TV sometimes we have security in the background, my need that just like guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Someone blow whistle or something. [SPEAKER_00]: Just to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: I got so upset because when Orna was trying to get them to simmer down, Roanessa said, put her finger up at Orna and said, hold on Orna, I was like, no, no, no, no, we don't do this in Orna's house.

[SPEAKER_00]: How dare you? [SPEAKER_01]: So honor is like, I mean, I said, or not, Jo is like, I felt rejected. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, wait, why did you feel rejected? [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't trying to seduce her by wearing your sexy nightwear, which is the same thing you wore and it worked and they had sex.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, aren't you guys good? [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we know when you have sex anymore? [SPEAKER_01]: I confused. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: But whether or not she did it on purpose and whether or not, which is so, [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it happens in a long-term relationship where you need to give somebody the signal.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not the person that initiates it, then you've got to give the other person the signal that like, okay, I'm ready. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't, I don't know, I can see how she feels rejected, whether or not she intended to send a signal. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, at least say I look pretty, like if I wear something that I feel cute in and the thing that I feel cute in causes you to leave the room, I'm going to if it rejected, whether or not, I was going to send you a signal or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think the difference is she absolutely was sending a signal. [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't want it in a minute, but she absolutely wants to. [SPEAKER_01]: She wore it before it worked. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Nessa did not say it delicately. [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, I fell for it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is how wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is your wife that you're saying I fell for it too. [SPEAKER_01]: And she did it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we know like, you know, she's in her prime. [SPEAKER_01]: Like we were told it, you know, why not? [SPEAKER_01]: That is her wife. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, so yes, so I think she was and I think she was rejected.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just wish like stand on business. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like, yes, I wanted to do it, but why is it such taboo that you want to have sex with your wife, but again, maybe it's the order in which they're showing it because Nessa did at some point when it sex off the table. [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe this was before they had their rendezvous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: to find her own space for Nessa to realize that she's putting Dreya through a level of rejection that is hard for her to tolerate. [SPEAKER_01]: It took her a while to get there because honestly, same, I was like, okay, one word. [SPEAKER_01]: put go through her mind, find your own space, level of rejection, like, she got it though.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no [SPEAKER_01]: I do feel that Nessa is in defense mode because she can sense that Orna doesn't pick sides, but I think she can sense that if we're picking sides, Orna is Andrea's side, because it's very clear what Nessa wants to do and that whole, if you remember a couple of episodes ago, when they had the villain conversation?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, she said you're not the villain, but you're the person initiating this. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, in many, so many ones because Nezor was just like, I'm the villain. [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, well, somebody has the other one in this shit. [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, okay, so then I'm the villain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you can make it nice, but basically I'm the villain. [SPEAKER_01]: So I do feel like she is defensive and [SPEAKER_01]: She said, oh, and then when she says I'm not trying to convince her because I think at some point or not, I had said that she's very convincing and another point she had said stop trying to convince her that she's not XYZ.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's been many instances in that case, but she said she's not trying to convince her, but when she remembers the situation wrong, I have to tell her that that's not correct. [SPEAKER_01]: And Orna says that she's not remembered in this situation wrong, that she is remembering what matters to her, Jen, I'm lost.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I'm saying right now. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even going to fake like I understood. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just like I'll just ask Jen what that I don't know what does that mean. [SPEAKER_00]: I just I mean, I think and just. [SPEAKER_00]: having to pull back fully from this whole thing and getting out of the words out of it all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's true. [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so many times when and this comes up later that Vanessa and I have to call her that to keep them separated has to tell Drea what to feel. [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_00]: Like and so there's a balance where I think to some degree Drea will accept it until she does it and you don't know [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Renessa often tries to convince her of things that didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: but Dreha doesn't always defend herself. [SPEAKER_00]: She's starting to, but there's also a clear point where because Dreha is not strong on her own, but she relies on Nessa for a lot that I can see why Nessa developed this role, whether she meant to or not. [SPEAKER_00]: She's the one that kind of guides their relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, she's doing it now in a way that serves her that doesn't serve Dreha. [SPEAKER_00]: And she feels attacked that like, but this is what I do and now you're telling me it's not right, but this is what I lead us. [SPEAKER_00]: I direct us. [SPEAKER_00]: So this is what I do and now you're telling me that it's wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I could see why she got defensive, but yeah, this whole thing is a homicide. [SPEAKER_01]: Andrea keeps telling her out that hurt, which we all see. [SPEAKER_01]: Nessa asks, well, what am I supposed to do then? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, and this is the, this is the Nessa we know. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think last week's episode was a fluke, because I just, this is what we know and this is what's happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just hard to backtrack after we've seen a separation and it's like, I'm thinking, let's move forward from there and what are the steps towards the separation. [SPEAKER_01]: And now we're back here again. [SPEAKER_01]: So the pink one. [SPEAKER_01]: So, Nessa says, what am I supposed to do then?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, when I was like, nothing, just stop trying to convince her not to be hurt. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you just want everything to go, this is like when people break up and you're like, can we be friends? [SPEAKER_01]: Because you want to feel like getting hurt their feelings and if we're friends, then it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Ona says, any changes uncomfortable and painful, but let's just allow some of that to happen organically. [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, [SPEAKER_01]: is right. [SPEAKER_01]: Dre, do you have anything? [SPEAKER_01]: Dre is like sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Cause Dre is a shut downer in a second.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's shut down. [SPEAKER_00]: She's shut down. [SPEAKER_00]: She's shut down. [SPEAKER_01]: So Anna tells Reya, like, you know, when you hurt, like, it shouldn't try not to let it be a catastrophic rejection of the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: It could just mean that you are on some kind of, you guys are on different kinds of journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry, I call BS on this. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what this is. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's constantly being stabbed by her wife and you're telling her not to bleed. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get that. [SPEAKER_01]: How do you not take that as a catastrophic rejection? [SPEAKER_00]: And I took that as, hey, we're preparing, we're preparing Drea for what's next.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is, in your next relationship, this is how you could not take everything that your partner says personally because your current partner has said some wild stop. [SPEAKER_00]: So in your next relationship, let's, let's practice some skills for that. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: So Dre is says that she doesn't see how being patient isn't her taking another loop on the roller coaster.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I was not in and saying like, yeah, so do I agree, I was like, oh my god, like Dre is college, time like Dan, do not wait for it. [SPEAKER_01]: Nessah to be the one and that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is playing out the demise of this relationship is playing out in the dynamics of the relationship Instead of her, she knows how she feels.

[SPEAKER_01]: She knows what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: She had that moment when she was like, I just want to separate, but you know, it was just temporary But she's also waiting for Nessah to be the one to pull the plug But you have to say it's not okay for her to treat you like this, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: So, Arna says to answer that question, you need to try something differently, you know, for both of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the different thing is, how do you do this marriage differentiated? [SPEAKER_01]: Dre asked, like, okay, so one of my supposed to do different. [SPEAKER_01]: And Arna was like, let her have her space proof again that this might be out of order, because she did, or she let her go to the Caribbean festival.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that made [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that's not horny. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if she didn't run away because of the video game she went in there. [SPEAKER_01]: So on a says like let her have her space don't take you personally and use the time for yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dre says like okay, you keep saying space, but she she get space. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get space. [SPEAKER_01]: How do you interpret that? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that it's true, but also Drea doesn't want space or Drea's never asked for space because I don't think it's been a situation where because I think she told us last week that when Nessa's gone or maybe it's two weeks ago that when Nessa's gone that Drea just shuts down like she doesn't even take her kid to.

[SPEAKER_00]: daycare. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think she's even thought about what she would do if she's had space. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't and I'm going to give room. [SPEAKER_00]: Ness is some credit here to say I don't think she's ever denied it from her. [SPEAKER_00]: She's never asked for it and she doesn't have any idea to do with it once she has it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But wait, well, I get that. [SPEAKER_01]: I get, I think my question is when she says she doesn't get space, what does that mean? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, does she mean when she says, [SPEAKER_00]: I think it just means that Nessia gets the opportunity to do the things that she wants to do. [SPEAKER_00]: But when she does that, then she has space.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not how she sees it. [SPEAKER_00]: What she does with her space is shut down rather than look at it as an opportunity. [SPEAKER_00]: to do something with it. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's on her. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I get that. [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, that's she's still getting space.

[SPEAKER_01]: What she does, it is a whole different thing. [SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, that's that could've used me her saying, I don't get space because if she's getting space that automatically by default, physically you get space too. [SPEAKER_00]: So, but if she's spending that if she's spending that space being tied up in Nessa, like when she gets space or when Nessa gets space in their apartment, [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't go, oh, yay, I can focus on X1 and Z.

[SPEAKER_00]: She spends that space being worried about NASA. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm sure to her, it doesn't feel like space. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, so then Ernest says, what would you like to do if you did have space and she's like, I don't know, I never thought about it and then she's like maybe read maybe right I'd like to take a nap like she asked like she has no agency in her life like just lie down and sleep, I don't know, I would could also didn't know somebody else say those things and then she repeated them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, no, at some point she had the same. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, um, um, Ona started with like the reading and then she's like, okay, I like to read books. [SPEAKER_01]: I could read more books. [SPEAKER_01]: And she started saying, I could write. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to take a nap and then she's like cook more.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's always wanted to learn how to make her own pasta and stuff like that. [SPEAKER_01]: So then ona asked, okay, can we work out of schedule where Dre is off duty for four hours? [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that's what she means by she doesn't get space. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe like since she's the one who handles the domestic stuff, she doesn't get space.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what she means because Orna did say can she be off duty for four hours and then Nestor jumps in and it's like you want Friday nights take Friday nights. [SPEAKER_01]: Please leave me alone go get space. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay And Jared And then Orna was like, okay, what time Andrea turns to Nessa and is like what time [SPEAKER_01]: Jen, I'm not going to lie to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know when I said out loud to my TV, I was like, God damn, you can't even come up with a time by yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was my original point because I feel like and maybe I interpreted differently than what was shown.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that when or in a suggested, you do stuff with your time. [SPEAKER_00]: She was like, what would I do? [SPEAKER_00]: And then or in I had to say, oh, what you couldn't read. [SPEAKER_00]: Or somebody said you could read it and then that's when she came up with her list. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was even, I think Nessa even said Orna asked, well, what, when would you want this and dress it?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And then Nessa said, what about Fridays take Fridays. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it was just a pattern of her saying I want this, but having no idea of what that looks like. [SPEAKER_00]: And not to me was that's when I finally forgave Nessa a tiny bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: was that when Dre was presented with options, she had no answer for herself. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, can I go back? [SPEAKER_01]: Because you just said that she says, I want this, but she never said she wanted it. [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't want this. [SPEAKER_01]: Or not trying to foster this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what Nessa wants to. [SPEAKER_01]: Nessa feels their two tied together. [SPEAKER_01]: Because left to her, she doesn't want to because that's what they talked about last time that she's afraid to do stuff because her mom passed down that fear to her when they talked about the driver's license [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, and the thing about it being out of order.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so she's just never thought about it because she never wants it. [SPEAKER_01]: She just wants to do everything with her, so she can think for her and do all of the things for her. [SPEAKER_00]: So, which is, which is, which is necessary for sure. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we finally saw in real time, well, what NASA was frustrated about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but we have seen it was it two episodes ago when we were like, okay, we kind of see what it is when she said when she talked about the fact that when she's not around she's not even going to take her to daycare and we're like, okay, that's extreme like that can be suffering. [SPEAKER_01]: So we do have an idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just the so order kind of through everything away and it's just I don't know I don't know what the situation. [SPEAKER_01]: We just when I asked when I said, [SPEAKER_01]: is Nessa Evelyn when this is kind of extreme. [SPEAKER_01]: Like she basically is the be all end all in the brain for driv.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that can be suffocating. [SPEAKER_01]: So is it really the worst thing? [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's going about it the wrong way where she's just kind of like death by a thousand cuts or wife, but you know, it's a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: So when she says what time to Nessa or does like know you, you what time and then she decides you know like five and stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know Dre is freaking out. [SPEAKER_01]: You know when things don't come naturally to you it just feel like you know for anybody else They're just like oh my god like my partner is willing to give me five hours of my time to just do anything that I want. [SPEAKER_01]: This is heaven She's just like no, no, no, no, I have to think I have to do things and all that so but it is good It's good for her too because the other things to think about is not to be morbid or anything even that's a dice tomorrow What are you gonna do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's good to build his skills and figure out and from what we saw last week because our time machine took us to the future She actually enjoyed it. [SPEAKER_01]: She hung out with friends. [SPEAKER_01]: She went to the mall and she had this and it's like the human mind is conditioned to think the worst Versus maybe things could be better, you know So or not tells her you know, you know, go ahead and practice it and we'll see what happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: NASA is so happy She is smiling and nodding [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see where they take us to next week because I don't know where our time machine is going to go. [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, strap-in boys and girls is Christmasy and a time and this was a doozy. [SPEAKER_01]: This was a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious to see if without giving anything away, did this change anything for you for Chris?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, it actually made it worse. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god. [SPEAKER_00]: He can't. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's good. [SPEAKER_00]: So it didn't change, yes, it made me like it less. [SPEAKER_00]: Even less. [SPEAKER_00]: Even less. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he's been through so much. [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of unreal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I always feel like there's some trauma that you never get over. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is one of them. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you get over the stuff that happens in him, but let me get into it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to tell a Virginia, I want to know, pierce. [SPEAKER_01]: He's the finger.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the peer group. [SPEAKER_01]: That crystal offers himself as the guilty one. [SPEAKER_01]: But you have to wonder what else he is. [SPEAKER_01]: He is under the spell of. [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been vibing 100% like in the past with Warner, so she's still convinced that Sienna is this big magical wand and has on the little spell, and she keeps saying that he's under some spell that I don't think I understand that do you, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, and they talked about, was it last week or a couple of weeks ago that with Sienna being the power and seeing the powerful thing, and I was like, I don't see that here. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like Chris is driving this with his story, and he's using, he's both the hero and the victim in his story, and I, I just, I have a hard time trying to support him when he's, when he's both.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so okay, I'm glad we're in the same page. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what she thinks he's under the spell of, but yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But this is as we watch them get tackles from a food truck and you're eating it and just having, you know, a great time. [SPEAKER_01]: So she says that, or not saying that there's something that he's still needing to reenact and it's not just between him and Sienna.

[SPEAKER_01]: So another pair who I have not, I haven't seen before, she's a black doctor, Tashi, says that she's thinking about it through the ambiguous loss. [SPEAKER_01]: Lens, or does I cool? [SPEAKER_01]: They have bigus lungs, lens, she repeats. [SPEAKER_01]: It is, it is a odd words to put together, not odd.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like when you put them together, it's like you take your moment to be like, what did you say? [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so she says, if you lose someone psychologically or physically, [SPEAKER_01]: you lose them in one way but have them in another way that's called an ambiguous loss that he experienced this with both of his parents like he was five when his dad had the stroke so his dad was present when i really present the same with his mom and then with the divorce he lost like the tongue in family and they all say unison ooooooo [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, and in that family in an order is like, yes, and in that when he lost the tongue in family, he lost his brother Moses, which was because his sister and him went to stay with their mom and the tongue in family, which included the son of the tongue in mom, which was Moses saved with his dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: So and then she says that with Sienna working, this is Tashi again and that was probably triggering to him and an ambiguous loss because, you know, he probably feels like he's losing her to work and then that's when he also started paying for cuddles and I wrote down, I think I hear Jen saying, I know they're not excusing what this man did.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that you're in my brain. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the one thing I do like about the peer group, and I think, [SPEAKER_00]: pulling back the lens of therapy and therapist being all knowing I like this scene particular because it shows that not everybody knows everything about everything like they all have very different disciplines and they all have very different approaches and so it's it's cool from a understanding the therapist that they don't know everything and that's why they have these groups so that they can go okay I specialized in this.

[SPEAKER_00]: but I'm talking to somebody that specialize in something else that may bring, give me a new tool for my toolbox to deal with the, with my clients. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I really, really loved this peer group. [SPEAKER_00]: In particular, but yeah, you're in my head. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I still, whatever, there's, [SPEAKER_00]: I have our time at Chris, but again, this hero victim, but again, all of this is like, you have this huge story, but it still doesn't explain why you don't your wife to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't make that connection. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess to me, I can can't see it, but I don't know if it's colored by the fact that you just don't like him, so you reject what is presented to you. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess. [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't like him because of what he did to his wife.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if he walked down the street, I wouldn't just see his face and be like a hate you. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like you because of what you've done to this woman who, at least from what we presented, didn't seem to deserve it. [SPEAKER_01]: Then, no, absolutely, and I think that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it doesn't excuse it. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't excuse the cheating, but I think like when you list a lot of, you know, your childhood, your trauma, and all that kind of stuff is what informs who you are and some of the behaviors that you have, I think it kind of makes sense to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes you can beat these things and overcome them in spite of, and for some people kind of like, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I'm going too far like equating it with like addiction, where it's just like you don't have control and that takes over for you. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like it's common sense to us because it's not something we struggle with, but if you're dealing with that struggle, it's harder and not necessarily common sense when you have to deal with that as a rock that's in your brain, your heart and your mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I'm annoyed at Chris because it's not as though he's [SPEAKER_00]: being in therapy is opening his door to making these connections. [SPEAKER_00]: It's they're in connections to Sienna, but I think he's fully aware of his story and he's fully aware of his pain and I think he's fully aware of his hurt and how [SPEAKER_00]: all of this manifested itself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's very aware of all of this and I feel like he's using it to his advantage. [SPEAKER_00]: Versus, I know this stuff is happening. [SPEAKER_00]: I know where these feelings come from. [SPEAKER_00]: I know why I'm comfortable being a little baby in my wife's lap. [SPEAKER_00]: He knows all of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's not discovering this in therapy for the first time. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what annoys me is that he's fully aware of all of this stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: It's still used, you know what I mean, not using it, but it's not like he's discovering this and therapy and that's why I'm annoyed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's fair. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the only argument because again, we don't know a lot of things is like, maybe he's done this and he's aware of this as it relates to him as an individual, but maybe it's never been done as a couple, how he relates in the relationship and his marriage, which is different.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Back to the therapy, in real time, Chris says that he had a great deal of guilt in the way that his mom treated his dad and he and his dad did not have like a father's son relationship because it was like he's my dad when I really my dad, but Moses, the tongue and son and his dad were tight.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have pictures, he's had over him. [SPEAKER_01]: and he loves that they had that, but the sad truth is that he didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: He was 17 when his dad had surgery. [SPEAKER_01]: He did say operation, which I thought was interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: He did say surgery. [SPEAKER_01]: Which going back?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I remember what I was going to say was that when Jeh orna, [SPEAKER_01]: I said, Jen, Jen, I put you in the show. [SPEAKER_01]: When Warner was talking to Virginia, all I could keep thinking about when she was having the peer group conversation is again, that is a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: You listen to the couples tell you stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to tell Virginia, you have to tell the group. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to go through your notes. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to dissect what your next pound of action is like, that's a lot to do. [SPEAKER_01]: These are just three couples that we see here.

[SPEAKER_01]: What in their day-to-day life? [SPEAKER_01]: How many of this does she have to absorb? [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I luckily heard she's got it on video tape. [SPEAKER_00]: So she needs to go back. [SPEAKER_00]: She's got the way to go back. [SPEAKER_00]: Remember. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he was 17 when he's dad had surgery and he was supposed to go see him. [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to hang out with his friends smoke weed and then that same night Moses called him and told him that he's dad died and he just felt so guilty that he should have gone to see his dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was in control after that because I guess he was the beneficiary for his dad's wealth. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was just 17, but when the attorneys were involved, then they kept telling him that he listened. [SPEAKER_01]: We have to sell the house, and if we're selling the house, they have to go, because they were only there to take care of your dad, and now that he's not there, they don't have a purpose.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he kept saying, no, that they were staying because they're family, not because, you know, they were taking care of him. [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, CNN is tearing up. [SPEAKER_01]: Then he said, when he turned 18, he had access to some of the trust, [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, huh, that's nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he says he always wanted to make sure that he was there for them. [SPEAKER_01]: But then he thinks about when they move back from Baltimore, they move to San Mateo, Moses kids were grown, Malia, Malia is the mom. [SPEAKER_01]: I first saw what's thinking was his sister. [SPEAKER_01]: But Malia is the tongue-in mom.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was across the bay and Christensen, and I had little kids and he had asked, like, hey, can you come and be with us and all that? [SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't happen and that really hurt him. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's valid, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's a valid feeling to feel heard or no?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and no, I think we would need to know what their relationship was in the middle. [SPEAKER_00]: So he bought the house, but what was their relationship? [SPEAKER_00]: Were they staying in touch? [SPEAKER_00]: Was it just I bought you the house? [SPEAKER_00]: But by, like, I don't know totally and he does get into it later, but I think I would need to know what the relationship was after the house was bought to know how to feel about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's fair because it's not a case of like I bought you a house, so now you owe me, come be with my kids, but I think he will he was saying was like Now he says then he said now he what he feels is like he needs them, but because they're okay, they don't they didn't show up for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Sienna's all baby and then comforting him and Guys, let's be clear. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not couples therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's Chris's therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: Like yep. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we asked them all. [SPEAKER_01]: We asked about CNS background last week, but that's about it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's all we're getting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is about this. [SPEAKER_01]: Euro and the victim all in one guy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know again, when I was the expert, if maybe she feels that is the gateway to helping their marriage because at this point the cheating is secondary and it's about his trauma But I don't know if she's making a way or a path to connecting [SPEAKER_01]: Both, but it almost feels like how do you hear like if you're like me not like, you know, we gen cuz Jen was still be like, let's focus This man cheated Because if you're like me where I'm just like, oh, man, this is a lot like how do you now pivot and you're like, well, you still cheated I mean, let's focus on that like you still you still do that, but he just feels like a a a sharp deviation From dealing with some of the things that he says, which let me just get to that that it's like

[SPEAKER_01]: How do you balance that and still have a couple therapy, I guess? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe she'll talk about it next time when she's talking to Virginia. [SPEAKER_01]: But he says he feels like Melia did not become the mother and the grandmother that he wanted her to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which gives really to what you're saying, like, you know, she didn't become the mother. [SPEAKER_01]: What was your relationship does that mean, like you weren't speaking? [SPEAKER_01]: Because if they were speaking, then he wouldn't say mother, maybe you would say grandmother. [SPEAKER_01]: And I notice that when he's speaking, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't look at Orner. [SPEAKER_01]: He keeps looking at Sienna when he's talking about that. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe he's reminded me too much of Boris, where everything is like him, him, him, him, him, him, him, him, him, but you have this whole other person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's every, I don't know, every time I feel like he talks, he's, he's, he's, [SPEAKER_00]: trying to be on TV and he's trying to tell a story and everything is so big and grand and it's like he's making a movie and I just it just doesn't feel genuine to me and to your point he's looking at Sienna because he wants her to have a reaction to this thing that is happening to him but again I mean are you just telling her this stuff for the first time and I know that she made a point about oh I didn't make the connection between this and this but it's not [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I would really really really love to hear where you fall in the Chris and see it in the Chris of it all because for me, I'm thinking that he's looking at her because.

[SPEAKER_01]: that's his safe space like she's been the one constant in his life. [SPEAKER_01]: So when he's saying this heavy thing and when he says it and I get it that it seems like a production like the thing is I can see I understand where you're coming from. [SPEAKER_01]: I can see why you think that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't [SPEAKER_01]: see it completely that way. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this thing has been like a rock in his chest for a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes even if you've been to therapy, you could be the wrong therapist and you just didn't get it out the way that you wanted to.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it just feels good for him to just let it out. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe Orner is giving him that audience. [SPEAKER_01]: So he's never had and he feels in the context of [SPEAKER_01]: the cheating. [SPEAKER_01]: So now he maybe has been to therapy and has been individual. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he hadn't cheated at the time or anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know again. [SPEAKER_01]: We're filling in all the blanks. [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it just feels like this relief that you can get all this shit out. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, and for me, I don't think there's anybody in Chris's life that haven't heard this story. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's a single person that doesn't know this story.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just always fair, that's fair. [SPEAKER_01]: So, guys, if you're listening, honestly, truly, I do want to hear what you stand on this and what you think of Chris. [SPEAKER_01]: Because, but someone that's so cynical, I don't know why I'm falling for Chris's. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, active it is an act, but I just he went through so much like I just you know what it give him some grace I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anyways, he says that on a says and you question, you know, how much of it like the, you know, the love and care that she showed you earlier is because it was paid for and how much of it was genuine and it's almost like a question of am I loveable. [SPEAKER_01]: And then CNN says like, oh, wow, I never I didn't clock the rejection.

[SPEAKER_01]: that she chose Moses over him because that's her blood son. [SPEAKER_01]: So he says, and then she's talking because I think she had asked like, um, what do you, how do you feel, Sienna? [SPEAKER_01]: And again, Jen, you were all up in my brain in this because he made it. [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, well, [SPEAKER_01]: When Sienna and I were getting together, my mom broke her hip, her femur, her fem, I don't know how you say it, femur, and he had to go get her and he didn't have a place to live and I'm like, wait, what did you do with your trust?

[SPEAKER_01]: You gave him a down payment. [SPEAKER_01]: At least get yourself an apartment. [SPEAKER_01]: So then he took her to the Tongue and family's house to stay and I don't, I didn't think that was a big deal. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's not terrible, but again, it it gives some some insight for me into the relationships.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you're talking about this woman abandoned you, Malia abandoning you, but not so abandoned that when you needed her to take care of another person in her own home, she did it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this was before they have kids. [SPEAKER_01]: So at that time, the relationship could be different because what he wanted was when he had kids for her to show up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could, well, she did get pregnant six months after they, well, they married. [SPEAKER_01]: But this is, he said, this was when he is, you know, getting together. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: So the, but then, there's a lot has happened between the time that he's 18 and the time that he met see in it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the missing part is what is the relationship that he had with [SPEAKER_00]: If he's saying, I expected her to do X1 and Z, or I expected her to embrace my family or my kids. [SPEAKER_00]: But she embrace your mom when your mom got hurt. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't understand where the feelings of abandonment are coming from and maybe I don't get the ordinance that dug into that little bit deeper or they didn't even we didn't see it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's my gift up. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and there's not asking the questions we want. [SPEAKER_01]: The people want, like I'm just going to do that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to do that. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a good point. [SPEAKER_01]: That is a good point that yeah, you're saying that she abandoned you, but why do you not recognize this as being there for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because he did tell stories of when his mom, you know, was going through her things and she would be like, just hanging there. [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And now you had no one to live, but you brought her and she welcomed you into the home and had your mom who terrorized them and basically, you know, didn't want anything to do with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: and still let them be there. [SPEAKER_01]: That is a form of being there for you. [SPEAKER_01]: So you're right, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: So, oh God, you're making me see the light. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, so, to my, welcome to my cynical brain. [SPEAKER_01]: So, they got there and then he said, it was just like being in high school all over again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Every day, his mom kept telling him that he had to help her commit suicide and she had a gun and she would be like, you can just shoot me and I'm like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: When it was a point where he said he broke, it was him, his mom, and Moses, and he just broke. [SPEAKER_01]: He grabbed the gun, told her, all right, let's go.

[SPEAKER_01]: He tells her, like, listen, I thought about it. [SPEAKER_01]: I will put you in the car, take you to Stinson Beach, and I'll just shoot you in the face. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, I could see the fear in her eyes, and he fucking loved it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, I can see the fear in C.N.

[SPEAKER_01]: As I said, she's listening to you tell this story as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And then he said, like, just screaming at the top of his lawns and slamming the door over and over. [SPEAKER_01]: And then he just stopped and then went downstairs and went to make a ball of ice cream. [SPEAKER_01]: And then Moses runs in and says, is everything okay?

[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, yeah, everything's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: And then he's like, yeah, I heard like yelling and banging and he was like, no, everything's fine. [SPEAKER_01]: And then later when his mom died, he's just like, okay, well, that chapter is closed. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, hero victim. [SPEAKER_01]: My question was Sienna.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you heard you saw all of this. [SPEAKER_01]: Sienna herself has a hero complex. [SPEAKER_01]: Is it hero complex or is it that she's nurturing? [SPEAKER_01]: Which do you think it is? [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's nurturing. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is somebody that craves being nurtured and I think she wasn't based on what we heard from her childhood and her Danish [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I can see if you didn't have a lot of, um, not security.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you weren't like coddled and you weren't coddled, that you would want to be the opposite and be that person. [SPEAKER_00]: So I could see why she's overly motherly to him because she didn't get that herself. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if she's doing it because she wants a pat on the back or because she knows how it feels.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she doesn't want that for her family. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and I don't know if you're a complex is the right thing. [SPEAKER_01]: I just mean people that like fixers, that like to fix people because at this point, if I had someone, and this is the situation that they had to deal with, I mean, you watch on my house and [SPEAKER_01]: You know about Dera and KJ and how me I was like, you know, he needs time to just kind of like, you know, get himself together and then they broke up at that time and he took that time, you know, to go, you know, get himself together and get the help that he needed so I don't know why at that time, like, especially since it was just in the beginning, right, that it wasn't like,

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you need time to sort through these things. [SPEAKER_01]: You just lost your mom like this is going on and then we can reconvene because sometimes when you have things and I think they tell this even for people that have addicts like don't get into a relationship because it's just one thing on top of everything else.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then in addition, I think you remember that when he brought her home and the mom was listening to the walls, [SPEAKER_01]: to see if they had sex. [SPEAKER_01]: Like all this together would have me like, okay, let's take a beat, let's evaluate like, is this something that I can, but for Seattle, I was just like, no, I, this is, yeah, this is it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not faulting her for saying, I'm just saying, like, I would like to know what her thoughts were after going through all this incidents is like, was there any hesitation on her part? [SPEAKER_01]: What did she just feel like, no, I can take, because this is it. [SPEAKER_01]: everybody has different tolerance levels right like that's why everybody just needs to find their person one person can be like oh I can do this and that person's like yep not for me you know yeah so I would have been curious to know what her thoughts were and I wonder because Chris is a fantastic actor and I think he's very convincing and I think he probably was like hey here's all this [SPEAKER_00]: because he said that before, like, why would you want this man?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why would you want this? [SPEAKER_00]: So I could see him being like, oh, here's all this stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: And oh, you don't want to be with me. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just damaged goods and dinner and making it see. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know what I'm trying to say. [SPEAKER_00]: But somebody that makes themselves seem so, [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, I could understand why you would want to abandon me, and that person who, because Sienna appears to be a good person is like, I'm not going to abandon you because of stuff that you can't control.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I could see that relationship forming. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where this wouldn't scare her away because he would be able to be like, oh, I'm so hurt. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so damaged. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so this and she's like, no, there's good parts about you. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to remind you of those things.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if it. [SPEAKER_00]: serves her in some way to be that person, but I could see that Chris, because he's able to switch when he told that story about the screaming and banging, and then somebody said, what happened? [SPEAKER_00]: I heard this and they're like, no, you didn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's able to cover and make big things, not seem big, even though you have evidence that's something big happened. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not gonna say she was tricked, [SPEAKER_00]: not minimize, but make these big things feel like something that she could help him with.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but I'm not going to say like, yes, he can do that, but she also has a brain of her own. [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's also like that's how it wasn't the beginning. [SPEAKER_01]: And then even over the years, she's still choosing to stay. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where I'm fascinated.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just what is the thing, you know, that keeps you because you're telling me that he tries to annihilate you, you're hearing how he was getting so excited about taking the gun and shooting his mom and he was like, I fucking loved it. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he said that I'm loud on TV. [SPEAKER_00]: And I saw her face because because she was crying and then he said that and she was like, wait, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I said. [SPEAKER_01]: When he said I loved, I liked that she felt fear and I'm like, yes, I could see the fear and see And as I was too, like in real time, in the office, like he was, she was genuinely scared. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that would be what I would like to know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm, I wanna ask Yena how she is. [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, like, I feel the weight of the web of everything else and how interconnected everything is and the magnitude of it all. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, oh man, Jen is right, guys. [SPEAKER_01]: He immediately just laces hit her her laugh and says crying, I'm like, see?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about Sierra Sienna and some of the house on the brain. [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about Sienna and all of a sudden he puts his head on her and he's like he's a child and then of course I think he kind of knows what she's going to do. [SPEAKER_01]: She sets like rubbing his head and she's like oh you haven't done this in a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you know he used to do um she used to do that he used to do that after his mom died. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's my show. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man. [SPEAKER_01]: So Sienna says that now that he's doing this she can kind of see how cuddling was a source of comfort for him and she tells him I'm never leaving like I'm always here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I was trying to remember how when he gave her an out to break up and she was like look me and I and told me you don't love me and all of a sudden he realized his stand-up guy and he [SPEAKER_01]: So, or not ask how he is, he says, I'm good. [SPEAKER_01]: And you just said, like, drop the bomb in here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now you're trying to say, like, you're good. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, no, like, he's not suppressing. [SPEAKER_01]: He just feels like he needs a good cry. [SPEAKER_01]: And then he puts his hands and I'm expecting him to just burst out crying, but nothing happens. [SPEAKER_01]: We see everyone just doing their own thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: We see Dreya writing, we see Sienna doing yoga. [SPEAKER_01]: We see Nessa just chilling by the lake. [SPEAKER_01]: or something on the wall, just sitting on a wall. [SPEAKER_00]: That was weird. [SPEAKER_01]: You alright? [SPEAKER_01]: Everything okay? [SPEAKER_01]: That was so. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so that was it. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I felt like I needed to exhale after that was done. [SPEAKER_01]: So I was a heavy episode. [SPEAKER_01]: So thank God no more. [SPEAKER_01]: So glad it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's what I was about to say. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank God we didn't have Marjorie and Jason in there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I could have handled anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that was it guys, don't forget, let us know where do you stand with Chris, what are your thoughts on Chris, but before we go, Jen, can you show people where they can find you? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, we are traveling through Indonesia and so you can follow all of our adventures in Indonesia on Instagram and YouTube at JNS dot adventures.

[SPEAKER_01]: Alright guys, please give me a 5 star rating, Tain Talks and all social media, always happy to hear from you, I will respond and answer any questions that you may have.

Couples Therapy: S5 Ep. 6 w/Jenn

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