MAFS Catch Up: Chatting with Clara from S12 (Atlanta)

0:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Tain Talks, a podcast formerly known as All-Tacol M.A.FS. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm your host, Tain. [SPEAKER_01]: Here with another episode of Maps Catch Up, because Maps is coming back pretty soon. [SPEAKER_01]: You may recognize my guest today from season 12 of Marida for a site.

0:27 [SPEAKER_01]: The second Atlanta season. [SPEAKER_01]: You may remember her for her direct honesty. [SPEAKER_01]: A vibrant energy. [SPEAKER_00]: Well. [SPEAKER_01]: before we're stuck the way from here. [SPEAKER_01]: And she needs to see a security camp coming, but my guest is Clara, hi, how are you?

0:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm so good, how are you? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good, thank you for coming on to chat with me about Mass. [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I will say, I haven't even watched this whole season and it hasn't, I haven't seen anything in like years. [SPEAKER_00]: So you're probably gonna be way more up to date than I am, you didn't know I would.

1:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know that's fair. [SPEAKER_01]: How many years has it been? [SPEAKER_01]: It was like right after COVID, 2020. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when you filmed almost six years ago. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was 2020. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: But my first question that I ask everyone is, how are you?

1:18 [SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing? [SPEAKER_01]: And how has life been since we last saw you on maps? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm good. [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of life changes since then. [SPEAKER_00]: I was a flight attendant back then. [SPEAKER_00]: I am doing social media management now. [SPEAKER_00]: So big career change.

1:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I also live in Canada now. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going through a different process up here with my partner. [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of lots of changes there. [SPEAKER_00]: I still have me's good. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, we'll be walking around in the background. [SPEAKER_01]: And I have two points in the last five years, which is crazy because I've had them for so long.

1:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're good. [SPEAKER_01]: That's good, I mean, that is a lot of change, but how is it living in Canada? [SPEAKER_00]: Cold. [SPEAKER_00]: It's cold, but it's good. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, they respect women's bodies up here. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're the lucky one. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I need the government to make it official, but we have high hopes that we'll be here forever.

2:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, good luck to you on that and that whole process. [SPEAKER_01]: So I know you said it's been six years, but have you watched Maps at all since your season? [SPEAKER_00]: So Virginia and I Virginia was on my season. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: We did couple's couch.

2:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, Maxi, we're already together. [SPEAKER_00]: So that, I don't know what season that would have been. [SPEAKER_00]: So I watched that season because we were like filming that. [SPEAKER_00]: Other words, no, but I've heard the format it's very different now that it's on the list. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm a little intrigued by this upcoming season.

2:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it'll be a good season to watch because even the last season that was the first season on Peacock was done for lifetime and they just kind of condensed it. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is their first true Peacock season that I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how I feel about it, but we can talk about that later.

3:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But our little show is changing is what I could say. [SPEAKER_01]: So you're one of the people who I can actually say like I know exactly why you were cast. [SPEAKER_01]: to be on married our first sight. [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, it was also like during COVID season a little after that, like what was the casting process like for you and what made you sign up for the show?

3:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So this was so I just remember this like so vividly, I was in my parents house. [SPEAKER_00]: This was I mean peak COVID and I get a DM from some random person that was like, hey, we want you to be on reality TV and I was like, guys, say, want me to be famous. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, [SPEAKER_00]: I love them and you visit all, I'm like, okay, whatever, and I send it to the friends.

3:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And they looked up the casting director on Instagram, sorry, they looked up online, LinkedIn, and they were like, I think this is legit. [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, you know what, whatever, screw it, I'll have a conversation with the guy. [SPEAKER_00]: So I talked to him, and again, it was one of those things for it was like, [SPEAKER_00]: the the odds of being chosen for this are so astronomical and in a thing like Atlanta like the beautiful women to choose from and personalities and you know and it's COVID so there's kind of nothing else to do.

4:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like whatever people and I like kept having calls and they kept calling me back but you like would go four or five weeks without hearing anything. [SPEAKER_00]: So, a lot of the time, you're like, oh, last week I had a call with a casting director. [SPEAKER_00]: And then everyone's like, yeah, okay, whatever.

4:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And nothing ever happens. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I don't know kind of all of a sudden, it's like, okay, we want you to get married. [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, oh, you're I am, I guess. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just very like, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I believe in fate to an extent of like I do think things happen for a reason and my idea was like this is either my way to meet the love of my life or as it turned out.

5:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Not so much, but I learned a lot of very important life lessons along the way and some I think it was what was meant for me at that time. [SPEAKER_01]: From start to finish, how long would you say the whole process took before you were told that you are matched. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say I got the first message in like April, and then when I met up with I think it was poster cow for him to be like congrats you're getting married in two weeks.

5:23 [SPEAKER_00]: That was mid August. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was the majority of the summer, but it wasn't like too long. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because my next question that I always ask people because I argue with some other, you know, post podcasts about this is when did you stop dating? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh, summer 2020 was such a wild time because again, it was COVID and like it landed down.

5:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It was open and we were outside and like. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much of this was mentioned on the show, but like I had been in a three-year relationship that ended August of 2019. [SPEAKER_00]: So this was my first hot girl summer, you know, and I was, I mean, [SPEAKER_00]: having a ball.

6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I did reach a point. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say in July of that year where I was kind of like, I don't want to go on dates because I don't think it would be fair to form a connection with somebody if this is possibly going to happen. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I would hate to have to be like, oh, just kidding.

6:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I did it. [SPEAKER_00]: have an X that reached out the week before I was told that I was matched. [SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of was like you know what I'll give this a one last edge effort see if there's anything there if there's anything there I can still back out now. [SPEAKER_00]: and there was nothing there so I was like okay and he we like hung out we went and got dinner whatever and he messaged me like three days later and was like hey like I'd love to see you again and I was like oh actually I'm so sorry I am getting married in two weeks [SPEAKER_00]: So like I know a lot of people on my season caught a lot of flack for continuing to date.

7:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I, it's just something I didn't like own up to. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you perceived well, but most of us kept dating up until pretty close to the time. [SPEAKER_00]: As for me though, like especially after I was told, you are younger than two weeks done. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people kept saying, after that point, I didn't know.

7:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Even in the two weeks. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You can come and write. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, you have some of my questions because I was gonna say like, you know, what happened with the ex-boyfriend or how did you know there was like absolutely nothing any more with him?

8:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes you just know when stuff is. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and some relationships are better, [SPEAKER_00]: in certain aspects than others. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just very clear that I was like, okay, this is a person that like, we have fun. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't like, we enjoy each other's company for, you know, like, going out to their hanging out for a night, but it's not something like, he also had really, really hurt me.

8:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, follow winter 2019. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I don't know that I can get past that. [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't see like, you've done any growing in the last six months. [SPEAKER_00]: I am clearly on this trajectory. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're done in Dusted. [SPEAKER_00]: He made another appearance after the divorce, but it was a wrap.

8:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It was a wrap. [SPEAKER_00]: It was a wrap. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a wrap. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for assistancey. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you go through the matchmaking process. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's different because back in the day, everyone used to gather and like auditory. [SPEAKER_01]: What was it?

8:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Hotel like rooms, and we'll see that. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see that. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see that. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so all this was Zoom, your whole process was through Zoom and all of that one of your one of the things you said when they asked I guess I don't know what they asked so you if you remember you can tell me about your past dating history or what you would prefer and I quote you said I like guys with a little flavor a little ethnically ambiguous and I said I'm going I have to ask her what that means or was that splice or did you actually say that on what did you mean?

9:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was some of me saying that because I didn't realize that that was an appropriate and there were some of it that was spliced together because I do distinctly remember the masking, not what is your preference, but what is your pastating history? [SPEAKER_00]: Like to which I said, I think ethnically ambiguous in the sense that like I've dated Middle Eastern men, Hispanic men, Asian men, white men, black men, [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

9:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And most of them were mixed. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was, it's not like I can point to being like, oh, I date, you know, 5 foot 10, born here, blue, white men. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I, I didn't have a type physically. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Now again, granted, I'm sure there were some things I said back then because I just was uneducated on things you do and don't say.

10:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: So like like I said, I'm sure some of it was me being just like I thought I was being cheeky and funny and some of it was like definitely the way that they asked the question versus the context with the answer in that possibly something a little worse than it was. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I mean, because there were other, you know, mouse tends to repeat a bunch of things.

10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And later on, you were just like, I've dated all colors of the rainbow. [SPEAKER_01]: I've dated people. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I took it to, I understood that you meant all kinds of men, like, more particular about it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I was just curious because I just talked to Michelle and I know she had said a light skin black man.

10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, no man, ask me what kind of men have I dated and I just, they just kind of put that line because they ended up matching her with the guy like that. [SPEAKER_01]: So I was just curious. [SPEAKER_01]: That was the case or not. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, very distinctly remember that they asked, like, are you okay being paired with a black man or do you prefer a black man?

11:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think because it was summer 2020, and I had been very on social media at a protest. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was out, you know, for Black Lives Matter. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that they wanted that to be the season of a, we were the first Black-way couple mixed. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think there was a lot of questions kind of, [SPEAKER_00]: Corraling me into that answer.

11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, which again, I was like, I have a hand some of his hands on, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, attractive to attractive. [SPEAKER_00]: So to me, I don't care. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, personality is definitely much more of a factor than skin care, like whatever.

11:54 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was, they were trying to push me that way because that's what they wanted for the show in that political climate. [SPEAKER_00]: And I am having to, [SPEAKER_00]: I think be kind of the only one my season that was like open whatever don't matter to me, like everybody else had a bit more of a physical preference than I did.

12:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so at that point, well, I guess before you went down the aisle, did you have an inkling that you are going to be [SPEAKER_00]: the producers have a storyline and whether you realize it or not, I don't say manipulating in like a negative way, but they are creating the storyline. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I mean, I have enough pattern recognition to pick up when I'm like, oh, you're kind of asking the same questions over and over again.

12:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, [SPEAKER_00]: Like I thought it was coming. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like yeah, okay, whatever it doesn't matter to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah So the matchmaking process. [SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on that everyone argues about this? [SPEAKER_01]: It's the producers is the experts like as much as you can say what are your thoughts on the matchmaking process?

13:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how much of it is what you ask for? [SPEAKER_01]: How much of it is the story for the show and things like that? [SPEAKER_00]: You're in such luck. [SPEAKER_00]: I am out of my NDA as a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of

13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, again, they have, like, there's just certain personality types that end up on reality TV, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think when they're casting, they have a, like, kind of a basic idea in mind and they're looking for the bubbly blonde and they're looking for, you know, whatever it is and I fit that and then they, you know, find other people and they make your story makes sense as it goes.

14:09 [SPEAKER_00]: We, that season saw the experts twice. [SPEAKER_00]: I think truly, like, they were not there. [SPEAKER_00]: They had nothing to do with anything. [SPEAKER_00]: I think because it was COVID. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, they didn't assist in anything. [SPEAKER_00]: So my experience says they had nothing to do with it from the job, you know, like, yeah.

14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Because [SPEAKER_00]: we didn't see it. [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think they, I want to say they started out the show by being much more involved and then it may be turned into something beyond experts. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I always think of your season as the turning point in some ways because the Chris and page season and it just didn't seem real and we got a lot of new people.

15:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying we like I'm a founding father or something but. [SPEAKER_01]: But we got a lot of new eyes because everyone's so clips of class and everyone's like what is this and he just seemed like okay This is a water cooler moment and he just seemed like there's no way you saw this guy and you're like this is a great guy to be a groom and you put him on there So that's where I'm thinking was just like what were you thinking when we did this and it was just like get her out of there too, but yeah That was you know I think [SPEAKER_00]: Reality TV casts very vivacious women and very abuse of men, just as a pattern and you see it across.

15:40 [SPEAKER_00]: every reality TV dating show where it's like every franchise has somebody who has sued the show because they were paired with somebody who abused them in some capacity, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, some situations are worse than others or the men didn't represent themselves appropriately.

15:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I do think there's a point where it's like, [SPEAKER_00]: part negligence on casting and production and part, these kind of shows attract very specific personality types. [SPEAKER_00]: Not one person, those on reality TV that doesn't have an itch to be famous and to be viewed.

16:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think in men and women that just presents itself differently. [SPEAKER_00]: And I, again, I think they're casting for great TV at the expense of, [SPEAKER_00]: beautiful care is not equipment quite often. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and that's the that's the thing that's like the conflict of interests is like we love reality TV.

16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: We watch reality TV and they have to produce, you know, a reality TV and they have to produce a story lines. [SPEAKER_01]: But if we really think about it is that out what it who's expense or what expense is all this, you know, happening. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, good segue again because it's like they paired you who they said like you fall in love so easily you've been through the ringer and dating and they paired you with a man who's never said I love you and said he hadn't dated as much and they were like oh my concern but you know what the words were that they hoped that he can give you enough.

17:18 [SPEAKER_01]: to keep you in the game. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I'd clock me when I watch the real time, but what you need again, I'm like, why would someone want to just have enough and just want them to have the full spectrum of everything for that? [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: It was never about giving me enough.

17:39 [SPEAKER_00]: I am one of those people who will, you know, take on a homeless puppy and [SPEAKER_00]: I would never have been enough in a million years for him though. [SPEAKER_00]: So as much as they wanted it to be, oh, you know, is this enough for you? [SPEAKER_00]: It would have been, you know, like, obviously, no, I have a very different perspective and I have a different lived experience.

18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it definitely didn't work out how I think. [SPEAKER_00]: they were intending it to? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: I wanna give them credit. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, them being at the time, Pascal, Dr. Viviana, Dr. Pepper, they're always so hopeful.

18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I mean, you lived the experience as a viewer if they seem like they want it to work. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm hoping that they were good intentions there. [SPEAKER_00]: who was an awesome, you know, you always hope so. [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I have, it's hard for me not to be jaded, right?

18:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because like, not only my experience, but the experiences of my friends on my season, the experiences of my friends on other seasons, like it's tough for me to not look at it through the lens of my lived experience. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so which I, my jaded brain is like, well, yeah, of course, they want us to work out because it looks better for them and they keep their job for longer.

18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's not true. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's too harsh. [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true. [SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_01]: When you told your friends that, you know, you are going to be matched. [SPEAKER_01]: How did you pick the friends that we're going to be on camera with you?

19:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Like where their friends that were like, I love you, but now I'm not going to be on camera or where they really are close friends that we're on camera with you. [SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of, um, [SPEAKER_00]: Who's in town right now? [SPEAKER_00]: And because it was COVID, we had to be COVID tested every single week, like, awkward.

19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: So like, gosh, for the reveal, [SPEAKER_00]: I've I've really can remember you know it's so funny. [SPEAKER_01]: I think there were three people in my reveal and I don't Yes, there are many of you guys were in the restaurant and they were like how's the process going and you said yeah, I mean good extent.

19:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't talk to any of those people anymore But at the time it was like we were close and like [SPEAKER_00]: that I feel like wasn't quite as difficult. [SPEAKER_00]: The wedding was so hard to pick people because we were only looked 13 people each because of COVID and they had to be in town.

20:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I was told they had to be in town two weeks prior to the COVID testing as well as the day prior to get COVID tested and it was the end of August, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like my friends were traveling. [SPEAKER_00]: Like my best friends [SPEAKER_00]: And most of my family, my grandparents couldn't come.

20:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it was like my parents and kind of like, who's in town right now, who's in town here, like funny enough, one of my breadmades was a flight attendant with me at the time, and she like flew in two weeks ahead of time to get COVID tested for me. [SPEAKER_00]: blue out was in a wedding for somebody else the night before and then flew in at six a.m. to be in I wanted the next day which is like the most dedicated friend you know like yeah a dream but everybody else it truly was kind of like [SPEAKER_00]: Who can be here?

20:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Who's comfortable with it? [SPEAKER_00]: Who's good with the public testing? [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it work and everybody was so supportive of the so it was just let's figure out what we can do. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god filming was a bit of a nightmare during COVID again. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially in the testing, those are not fun at all.

21:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm supposed to do with them? [SPEAKER_00]: And all of the camera people and the sound people, like even we, all everybody had been masked any time that cameras weren't rolling for them. [SPEAKER_00]: They had been masked 100% of the time. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just such a different world.

21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like it's been six years ago. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not that long ago. [SPEAKER_01]: So okay, I'm going to play a little game with you because you guys all met the thing for the bachelor at or the best you could do to recover it and just tell me one word your first impressions when you met the girls when you saw Brianna oh gosh, I'm like I don't feel like I'm going to remember I want to say with three.

21:52 [SPEAKER_00]: She was so well dressed. [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to say they even asked me that after the first meeting and I was like, oh, she looks so chic. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think for bringing her really chic. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Virginia. [SPEAKER_01]: Virginia, bubbly, for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Crazy personality. [SPEAKER_00]: She's so off the wall even from the first time you meet her and she still has to stay, I love her. [SPEAKER_00]: But then Barry, outgoing bubbly, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, haily. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, very composed. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she felt a little more guarded than the rest of us, not in like a, not a bad way by any means, but I think, which is so funny because she is so wild and hilarious, but I think just a meeting she was a little out of her comfort zone and she was very together.

22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she read as reserved as a viewer and finally page. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, just like so sweet. [SPEAKER_00]: She was the sweetest amongst us all. [SPEAKER_00]: Like truly she was like I I really think they hit it out of the park with the five of us, but Paige was like kind of the heart and soul and then with everything that happened we just I think we were really like rallied around her so much but even from the jump was like she's just such a sweet heart.

22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just since we're here, like as an outspoken person, like doing filming, like say there were scenarios that maybe you didn't agree with, like maybe choices and videos, all the other girls made, because something that we're seeing in the newer seasons is like all the girls band together and everyone's just like speaking for the other and sometimes it colors, the individual experiences where it's just handled as like a group.

23:22 [SPEAKER_01]: effort situation. [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I can be specific and saying like in the Chris and Paige, where there's scenarios that you didn't agree with, how do you find balance between sharing your POV and just letting people have their own experience? [SPEAKER_00]: That's so I'm sure you remember when we were all in Vegas, there was like a whole showdown where it was like me and Virginia versus [SPEAKER_00]: generally speaking, I'm a fairly non-convrentational person, and especially then, and especially when I know that there are eyes on me, I feel for page, and I will absolutely have a conversation with page and all the girls about this.

24:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was required to have that conversation with him, Virginia, and I were, and that was so incredibly uncomfortable for me. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you can see, if I remember correctly, that I am like not speaking much, I pretty shut down in the confrontation. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I will absolutely go to bat for my friends, and I will absolutely tell you what's on my mind.

24:33 [SPEAKER_00]: to a point, but it's also your life. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're gonna make the choices you wanna make and not saying, that's not on my business. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, if I see that my friend is being grievously mistreated, I do want to stand up for her. [SPEAKER_00]: But Paige also did, and that in that moment, like she was uncomfortable with that conversation, I was uncomfortable, everybody in that scenario was uncomfortable.

24:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was just like the whole thing was really weird. [SPEAKER_00]: And then that sort of colored the way we all moved [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you say you were required, how much key share of what does that entail, what does required mean, or how were you? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was, Claire at Invergenia, you are going over there to have a conversation with Chris.

25:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think because when the cameras weren't rolling, we were all quite vocal about our opinions on the situation, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, [SPEAKER_00]: None of us agreed with what he was doing, how he was treating her, how he was, I'm hypothetically treating Mercedes. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there were just so many things that we were all talking about off-camera and so I think they were like, oh, well, if you have so much to say, off-camera, go say it now.

25:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, listen, I can gossip with the best of them. [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean that I want to look into a fight with anybody, but it was like, you will have this conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: we were told you got to go do it and so we went and we did and I like kind of sat there for the most part and it was just like well I have to sit here but I don't have to say anything and I'll do my best but yeah, it was cautious of the whole thing.

26:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean that kind of answers I got a listener question that was like how much did you know about what was happening with page and quiz and if you did know that any of you guys directly tell page to get out of the relationship [SPEAKER_00]: there's also just we knew so much more than you guys don't even have any idea on.

26:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You're okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So many other moving parts to that relationship from literally day one and that like aren't my business to share. [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there was just such a set of dynamic there and believe and I don't want to speak for page but she is religious and came into this very much [SPEAKER_00]: This is who I'm marrying, this is, I'm making this decision, excuse me, I've made a vow in front of God and this is my husband and kind of like he's not like, oh, how did this respect me, but like I made that, you know, it's like, I grew up religious, so I've seen this many times and so she knew and we knew and then the girls would get together [SPEAKER_00]: constantly and we were all talking about it and like again there's only so much you can tell people who like have made their mind up and want to do what they want to do and I can tell you until I'm blue and face that you deserve better and you should leave that man and he's

27:39 [SPEAKER_00]: not it for you, but all I'm going to do is isolate my friend and they made that decision. [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, we knew everything, maybe it may have taken a day for stuff to get through the grapevine, but like the producers talk, the camera people talk. [SPEAKER_00]: It was constantly chatter.

27:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_00]: The authenticity of a lot of the claims on his side. [SPEAKER_00]: What she really pregnant did she want to be on TV? [SPEAKER_00]: Did they want to be on TV together? [SPEAKER_00]: What was the motivation there? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know any of that because I didn't Conversate Chris.

28:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so [SPEAKER_00]: I knew that it's told, but there's a lot of stuff that I don't think any of us will ever know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'm glad she has a happy ending now because that was a nightmare for us to watch. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine living through it, you know. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, and it was hard from the sidelines, too, because like you get bonded with these people so quickly and you care for them so deeply in your all sort of trapped in this.

28:49 [SPEAKER_00]: shared hell with an experience because it's like it's just like a trauma bond really like there's so much happening and you really feel for people and and it wasn't just page right there was stuff going on with everybody like that was not on camera that we all were like doing our best but you also have to keep your own marriage flow and you've got to deal with being in your own stranger relationships it's like we help as much as we can we support as much as we [SPEAKER_00]: in the way that the person will accept support.

29:22 [SPEAKER_01]: you know. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the thing with reality TV that I've been struggling with lately, especially with Love Island fever, is we find out the things that the producers, oh they didn't show this and like Sean said, oh I talked to her and I every day, what? [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know.

29:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost like you're telling me what to think and I don't like, don't I don't want to know that you're telling me what to think. [SPEAKER_01]: So, oh okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So before you walk down the aisle, what were you most afraid of at that point? [SPEAKER_01]: Like when you're about to do it, [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think like I was such, that was like the most anxious I was in the entire process for the sake of like my hair, my hair was not how I wanted it.

29:56 [SPEAKER_00]: My makeup wasn't how I wanted it. [SPEAKER_00]: My dress had been like hemmed three inches too short and didn't bustle properly and there was just so many little things going on. [SPEAKER_00]: They picked us up like an hour and a half late that day, so they're like, kind of not yelling at us, but they're like really hustling us to get ready consistently.

30:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We're on a shorter time than like, listen, I have a schedule and I like to stick to it. [SPEAKER_00]: of filming things and then I'm just like in an absolute and just dizzy for the whole day and I think really it was just like I just need to get this done and get out there and then there was like we're blindfolding they got added on for me that was like okay now we've got another layer to this and like just sort of like [SPEAKER_00]: get it done and then we can worry about like I can't worry about the specifics of a person that I've never met before so let me leave him and assess the situation and then I can worry about the relationship but I just need them.

30:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Get there and get it on. [SPEAKER_00]: Great idea. [SPEAKER_01]: Who's ideal was the blindfold? [SPEAKER_01]: How was it presented to you? [SPEAKER_00]: That was my ex-husband's idea from what I was told and I want to say our producer came and was like [SPEAKER_00]: He has this idea and it was it was how to be quite this like romantic like you'll have this intimate hand holding moment and I was like okay [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

31:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And do I look like an asshole if I say no? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I view things differently now. [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like a pretty early. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's control what's going on. [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of. [SPEAKER_00]: By doing something small thing now, but at the time it was just kind of like, Okay, this is like kind of a weird thing, but it's supposed to be romantic and this person I'm supposed to be with for the rest of my life has requested this of me and like whatever it's not that big videos It's just do it [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can understand just going ahead with it.

32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's like it's not the worst thing, but also it's weird that you know it. [SPEAKER_01]: I can just roll with it. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: The blindfold comes off. [SPEAKER_01]: You see Ryan and his haircut for the first time and your first thought. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was going to see that in the straight face and your first thought.

32:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Your first thought was what? [SPEAKER_00]: of course. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know man. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I first thought was basically like, well he's not ugly, is no one I would have ever picked for myself. [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: But I went straight into [SPEAKER_00]: sort of like crisis management like he's, he's, he's cute if I say he's cute.

32:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's what styling can be. [SPEAKER_00]: updated. [SPEAKER_00]: And I would have never spoken to him in a bar. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's it was so tough for me to because I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, I told them I didn't have a type. [SPEAKER_00]: But this is not my type.

33:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, yeah, I, I know I didn't. [SPEAKER_00]: give any specifications. [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't say anything and again, he's not ugly. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have a thought he was a monster because that's not what was going through my head, but it was definitely a little like a handlebar mustache, I think.

33:30 [SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of how that, but I was like, okay, this is [SPEAKER_00]: not what I was expecting, and I also think that kind of in my head the way that they had been asking questions. [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of was expecting six four dreads. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the way that they were sort of, I don't know the question that we're being asked of me, I was expecting just very different.

33:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the first thought was definitely like, okay, [SPEAKER_01]: it's funny because I think he's attractive. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say I think he was the most attractive husband that season. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: He's there with Vince.

34:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Who's on that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he with Vince, who's off to you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but different different strokes. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that I thought I don't know that I thought I needed to have a man that season more more attractive. [SPEAKER_00]: So you're you're [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing was he didn't have to handle bar until reunion, but he did have to mustache there.

34:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So just that in the haircut, the haircut was a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, okay, maybe he's just quirky and just, you know, whatever, but okay, that's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: But for the cameras, I think you did say he's cute. [SPEAKER_01]: He's attractive. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm attracted to him.

34:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But not not not not not quite for you for it. [SPEAKER_00]: I would never [SPEAKER_00]: ever want to say something on camera on national television that would intentionally hurt somebody. [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you get divorced or not, it is not my character to make you feel bad about your appearance, just because you're not who I would have necessarily gone for, right?

35:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, I'm out here being like, oh my god, yeah, he's so cute because I would also hope that if he's not attracted to me, he would take my feelings into consideration and say the same thing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I would have said that on anybody. [SPEAKER_00]: I think like truly, I don't know that they could have put anybody in front of me where I would have then turned around on camera and been like, oh, God, no.

35:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: What did you do? [SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, it was like maybe, again, I wasn't on a track to do it, but I wasn't like super track of time. [SPEAKER_00]: I was just kind of like, okay, yeah, I'm like, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and with it, but I'm going to make it work with this.

35:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: We're all good. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a tough thing, I think we had Dr. Pepper on and I asked her, what is the protocol if you're not attracted to your spouse? [SPEAKER_01]: Because sometimes they're like, just be honest, just be honest, but to your point, you want to hurt their feelings, but then it's obvious that you're lying.

36:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So then you're lying to them. [SPEAKER_01]: So a national television, what is the protocol? [SPEAKER_00]: Very learned about the attracted to your spouse, lie to the death? [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a conversation you can have with the person you're paired with off camera. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to speak down on somebody when they're not there in a minute, themselves and when you haven't had that conversation.

36:28 [SPEAKER_00]: So, really, and we both talked about it and like, I want to say, I said to him, like, I don't think I would have picked you out in a bar, and like, and I don't mean that to be rude. [SPEAKER_00]: But I do want to say that very early on, that conversation was had where it was like, I was exactly what he asked for physically.

36:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I didn't ask for anything physical. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like I could have been like, oh, you aren't what I requested. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have anything. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I do if I've memory serves correctly. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say we had a basic conversation, but it was also again, he's not agree.

37:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing everything I can and I do think attraction grows right like just because you aren't I'm initially physically attracted to someone does not mean that their personality can't when you over especially where men are concerned I feel like so often women are drawn to very funny men very kind men or appearances don't matter.

37:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think when the men on reality TV aren't attracted to the women it seems to be much more difficult for them to overcome. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's done. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm never going to get out of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so then tell you that your honeymoon is going to be in Vegas.

37:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Will you please? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because you're all the best. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you talking about? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we get that it's COVID, but like, send us to Florida. [SPEAKER_00]: When you mean we want to make ends, and I'm here, and we're, I don't go to clubs like Vegas to me, which is so, you know, it's hilarious.

38:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: My partner of three and a half years, where did we meet Vegas? [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's true, because I mean, I follow you online, but for those who don't, you know, follow or not, chronically online, do you want to tell people how you met? [SPEAKER_00]: I'll try to keep it really, really short.

38:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Max and I. [SPEAKER_00]: We both were out there for a music festival. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, you could buy tickets this Saturday. [SPEAKER_00]: You could buy tickets this Sunday. [SPEAKER_00]: We both had tickets this Saturday. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm with Virginia and a couple of my other girlfriends.

38:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And we wake up Saturday. [SPEAKER_00]: We are ready to go and the festival cancels because of severe wind in Vegas. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So through a series of just comical events, I end up in a bowling alley at a DJ set that I did not want to be at. [SPEAKER_00]: And next to me is this guy, and I'm like, oh, he's cute.

38:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And he doesn't have a wedding ring on. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, we're kind of like vibing. [SPEAKER_00]: He's paying me no attention at all. [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm like, oh, okay, you know, whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: And something just like kind of overtook my body at the end of the set. [SPEAKER_00]: And I walked up to him, and I was like, are you single?

39:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, yes, and I like, give me your number. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I had like the contact screen pulled up. [SPEAKER_00]: Then we both ended up going we had both bought tickets for the next day and we went and I hung out with him and his friends all day because my friends didn't end up buying tickets and that was almost four years ago and now and we've been like just inseparable ever since so it was a crazy crazy story.

39:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You and your leaps of faith. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm going to overtook my body because like every one of my friends will tell you like post married at first sight up until we met and I mean I guess since then [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even a good wing woman. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to talk to men.

39:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be in a war talking to some guy. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to entertain him so that you can go home with I am not that person. [SPEAKER_00]: I am not hitting on strangers and bars. [SPEAKER_00]: So for me to have done this, I was like, I'm telling you something, injured into my body and pushed me to him.

40:07 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the craziest thing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I don't know that I necessarily believe in love at first sight, but it truly was like, [SPEAKER_00]: unreal. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's cute. [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think I was in Vegas because I remember because I was there for usher, I believe, and they canceled a whole, there was another concert happening, and then they canceled that day.

40:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So well, it worked out for you. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm sorry, you had to go to Vegas, which is funny, because season 13, they took them to Florida. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember Merler being very pissed about that. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's funny that you say take us to Florida. [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_00]: Cabo or like really nice resorts, and especially because gosh, that was the same same year that they started love as blind and so we're seeing that like Kinetic shows and they've got the pleasure to go and places and then like and we're going to make us okay, whatever like they get close.

40:59 [SPEAKER_00]: It's cold. [SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do? [SPEAKER_00]: Stick me on the beach. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what I asked because I was like, big is really okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, at what point did you realize how different you and Ryan were? [SPEAKER_01]: How early on or how much later did you realize you were different?

41:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel that's so hard to answer because to a degree like immediately. [SPEAKER_00]: But on the other side of that same coin, we really were. [SPEAKER_00]: White, good sort of friends from the jump. [SPEAKER_00]: Like we were like, we really could see why we were matched initially. [SPEAKER_00]: We could see it, but there was no physical chemistry.

41:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of on either side in the beginning. [SPEAKER_00]: And that definitely kinda took me off guard. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think also it was sort of easy to see [SPEAKER_00]: how each of us reacted to the situations around us, how different we handled conflict very early on, how different we handled other people very early on.

42:09 [SPEAKER_00]: We would, we would, [SPEAKER_00]: live through an experience and come out and have very different opinions on what had happened. [SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of stuff was pretty easy to identify quickly. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I realized that this was like incurable differences until six months in, probably, where I was like, oh, okay, I'm going to work.

42:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so when you say you guys realize why you were matched, what were the wise, what are some of the reasons that you thought you were matched? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I mean, it was very kind of like service level stuff like people who've loved movies and music, and we had a lot of the same sort of like lived experience in that we were both raised in the church, and a lot of like, [SPEAKER_00]: are obviously there were racial and cultural differences, but our family's kind of moved in very similar ways.

43:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we had a lot of similar background. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know, again, it's tough because it's so hard to remember the good things after you've experienced bad because it just changed at all. [SPEAKER_00]: But I definitely remember the first time we went to my parents house after Vegas.

43:27 [SPEAKER_00]: We were like, yeah, I mean, it's, we just get along so well. [SPEAKER_00]: We're waiting for the other shooter drop. [SPEAKER_00]: Like we clearly have so much in common. [SPEAKER_00]: And let me, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You can have things in common with people that don't live your life with.

43:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so at some point during the journey, I think when you guys moved into the apartment, he said something about you having to control the things that come out of your mouth. [SPEAKER_01]: How what led to that was that was that a surprise to you where they like little things that we're leading up to that comment being said on camera.

44:06 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know I don't necessarily remember that comment actually because that was how I was spoken to kind of from the jump. [SPEAKER_00]: what's the word I want to say? [SPEAKER_00]: He was very concerned about anybody else's opinions of him. [SPEAKER_00]: He was really, I think, afraid that I was going to say something that would paint him in a negative light.

44:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it part of the private, yes, but like, [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's nothing like we weren't talking about anything that he wouldn't have talked about with his friends. [SPEAKER_00]: It was more I think that it was on camera and he was so. [SPEAKER_00]: We were both very aware that we were going to be perceived by hundreds of thousands of people.

44:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for him, this was also kind of like like a business opportunity. [SPEAKER_00]: Like he didn't want to look bad career wise and God forbids somebody that he works with, [SPEAKER_00]: They thought I shouldn't have said and then he looks like I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: There was like I never really understood what was quite going through his head as far as like Why would you go on a reality TV show if you?

45:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, are that private? [SPEAKER_00]: And you are so afraid of having conversations or talking about anything like it was a war that that and we filmed of like truly I [SPEAKER_00]: I did not do well mentally. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure it shows by the end of the season, but like, for me, I signed up for this experience.

45:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I signed a contract and I am being told by producers. [SPEAKER_00]: You need to do more. [SPEAKER_00]: You need to tell us more. [SPEAKER_00]: You need to talk about more. [SPEAKER_00]: These are like, you are not living up to what you signed up for. [SPEAKER_00]: And I have him saying, don't you dare speak about this.

46:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I will not forgive you if you tell anybody about any of this. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and I felt like it was being stretched. [SPEAKER_01]: in a shoe very different directions from people. [SPEAKER_00]: And to me, I'm doing the best I can to live up to, I did sign up for this. [SPEAKER_00]: I did sign up to have these conversations on camera.

46:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I agreed to it, but at the same time, the camera's will go away and I do have to be with this person for the rest of my life, you know, it's what's in my head, so like, do I respect the commitment I made here or the commitment I made here because they are at odds. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was very difficult for me because I am opinionated.

46:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like to think that I'm rude by any means, but like, I do speak my mind. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I, if I'm asked a question, I'm going to answer it and [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say again, I haven't seen most of these episodes, so I don't quite know how it looks, but I know from my experience of living at the by the end.

46:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I just was like, no. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, because I didn't feel like I could be myself. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't feel like I had the space to say any really I was so afraid of like Him being set with me all time said it was like I just can't say anything at all. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that was I know you can't speak for him, but that was my question like you said you have to be a certain kind of person to sign up for reality TV and I just could not reconcile who we saw of him and him being on a reality TV and not wanting to show.

47:32 [SPEAKER_01]: anything which is funny because at the altar whenever he was speaking to you when he said I have a very big personality when you guys met and I was like okay yeah maybe different definitions but it's just I was never able to reconcile why he signed up for a TV show especially a reality TV like [SPEAKER_01]: It comes with a lot of things that you have to be prepared for.

47:53 [SPEAKER_01]: You never fully know what you're stepping into. [SPEAKER_01]: I can give that, but you have an idea that, you know, they want your blood. [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to give something or play the game or something, I guess. [SPEAKER_01]: I think we thought he was. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I don't want to, I don't want to speak for him necessarily again, but I think he thought he was smarter than the system.

48:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he thought he could gain the system and come out, looking perfect. [SPEAKER_00]: And this was going to launch him. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, him and his brother had been talking about starting the podcast and like. [SPEAKER_00]: his brother worked in entertainment spaces with Steve Harvey and so like he had been around sort of like that space and he had these like career aspirations and I think he really thought well these people are dumb they're reality TV producers I can I can say what I want to say and I'm gonna look like look and he doesn't it's no one understands that this is people who [SPEAKER_00]: they are cutthroat and they know the game a lot better than you do when you're, you know, fresh off the bus from the middle of nowhere and think that you're going to come out of this, you know, a Kardashian or whatever, like you don't know what you're doing the way that they know what they're doing.

49:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he thought he was smart enough to not have to do with [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, to your point, I think, quote, my thoughts exactly where I can see the light dying in your eyes as the season went on. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, as you gave your confessionals, it was just like, dead eyes, like, yeah, we're fine.

49:36 [SPEAKER_01]: We're great. [SPEAKER_01]: We're fine and we're stuff along. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like, so at that point, did you recognize that you were keeping the peace? [SPEAKER_01]: I knew you said it was like six months along, but [SPEAKER_01]: This is like what it's eight weeks and at this point where you just like this is too much or where you just thinking it's the cameras and when the cameras go away everything will be great so what nobody else sees is that our producer and I really did not get along her and I [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, you know, when you meet somebody and you're like, oh, you don't like me from the job and you just like, and you'll say it to people whenever and I'll just like, no, you're crazy, but it's like, no, I know this person doesn't like me.

50:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It was the minute her and I met, it was like, oh, I feel like I've signed up to be kind of made a fool of, because I can tell again by like the, [SPEAKER_00]: the questions being asked and how they're being asked and the comments being made. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, she doesn't like me.

50:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what was kind of weird too was I had been working with a different producer up until like a couple days before the wedding or like really, I guess up until match points. [SPEAKER_00]: And I loved her. [SPEAKER_00]: She was great. [SPEAKER_00]: And then for reasons that I have been told, but not directly [SPEAKER_00]: to work with a different couple because of, I think, something that he said in his interviews that made feel some way.

51:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So we swapped. [SPEAKER_00]: And... [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, we really butt heads and like it was hostile. [SPEAKER_00]: And so not only that, but I have this person that I'm having to censor myself for and she didn't like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But oddly, they go on a long very well. [SPEAKER_00]: It was all very odd where I was like, I'm the bad guy in both of these situations.

51:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the bad guy to him because of her. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the bad guy to her because of him, but you too get along. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how I got here, but it was, it got to a point where I was just like, I can't win with anybody. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not gonna describe it.

51:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And if I give honest thought out answers in my interviews and my confessionals and whatever, [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to come back to bite me in the butt. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'd rather deal with making the producers upset for eight weeks because, again, I've signed up for a lifelong commitment and maybe when the camera's going away, he's not going to be so mad at me all the time because that seems to be the big problem right now is the camera's a little.

52:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm hoping if I get myself through these eight weeks, then we can tackle anything else here. [SPEAKER_00]: But I have to get through these eight weeks, [SPEAKER_00]: And that meant I had to pick aside and for the most part, I picked his because I was like, I just don't know what else to do.

52:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a tough situation to be in because it's like you're the odd man out in the triangle over there. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so him never saying I love you was a big issue, but you did say on camera that you were in love with him. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know looking back probably you'll say you weren't in love with him, but at the time when did you realize that you were in love with him or what made you feel like you were in love with him?

53:03 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's so funny. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of that got taken severely out of context and a lot of that got really chopped and edited because he said I love you first. [SPEAKER_00]: Why? [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't say I never told him I loved him until he told me first. [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, let's rewind.

53:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So for us, the first time he said I love you was at the reunion, correct. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first time he said, what is that? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he said that on camera because he wanted to say that on camera. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was, we filmed that on Valentine's Day. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was mental with this big romantic gesture.

53:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I did not say that. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think even maybe until we got home that night, but definitely like not before he said that to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think, well, now I'm trying to remember where I saw it. [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like I saw you say I love him. [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I need someone to say I love you to me by decision day, like, I mean, love with him.

54:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So something like that to that point bit. [SPEAKER_00]: You know what's funny too? [SPEAKER_00]: In the background of us filming this, my best friend in a relationship with this guy, [SPEAKER_00]: started in January of 2020 and he didn't tell her he loved her until like after a year of them being together.

54:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Like they were almost moving in. [SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm talking about like there was definitely a scene where it was like us and then Eric and Virginia and I'm making the comment of like if someone doesn't tell me I love you by six months like I'm out. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about my best friend and her boyfriend.

54:38 [SPEAKER_00]: You would point of contention in their relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: And she's telling us this. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, so my best friend and Virginia also know each other too. [SPEAKER_00]: So like everything now. [SPEAKER_00]: And so like we're all having this conversation of like, [SPEAKER_00]: you guys have been together for eight months now and he hasn't said that and like that's kind of weird and like you spend every moment together like it was so blown out of context because like I'm sure I said it like in the generalization but like I'm not [SPEAKER_00]: I was in my hand about our relationship and technically I think he did say it within six months because that was Valentine's day and we got married at the end of August.

55:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So like he got right in under the water, but I want to say that like, and if I had said, oh, I need to hear that before the decision day. [SPEAKER_01]: there was nothing that was going to get me to say no one decision day so I'm sure I was just trying to like manifest it but I would walk away if he didn't say that okay so I'll get to decision day but let's talk about sex I'm not Ryan so you can talk about it hopefully what was that whole thing [SPEAKER_01]: about, as they say, consummating the marriage.

56:05 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was just, what was that like for you, all of it? [SPEAKER_01]: The security cam, the outbursts, when he came up to you and was like, lie about it, and all that, like it just seems like a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, between married people, let's even take out like if you think it's for an occasion, you're married.

56:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So what was the, what was the big deal? [SPEAKER_00]: He promises mom, he wouldn't. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, because it's you or because it's a show I think it was before meeting me it might have been wedding day it might have been week one I don't know I was told he promised his mother he would not have sex with me at all period through the whole process we were having sex by like halfway through.

56:55 [SPEAKER_00]: However, well, penitrative, we were doing everything else under the sign way before that. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was definitely like an imbalance on what was happening and who was doing what when. [SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: That's when I'm like kind of vending to the girls, which mind you, we're told that those cameras in those apartments, those like because I'm not like Mike that right like that whole thing was me just like on the camera we were told that those cameras were for security safety purposes like in case the apartment got broken into an equipment got robbed.

57:28 [SPEAKER_00]: safety in case the person that you're partnered with beats you or in the in the instance of like God what was was it Matt and Amber where like he was out all night yeah for a week straight and like they had to fill the gaps of like the conversations that they were having yeah we were told that it was like for that purpose we were pretty much assured that they weren't going to just be like listening and using that footage whenever they felt like it.

57:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So I felt much more open to be like, guys, it's been a week. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so annoyed with this. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just want to have a glass of prosecco with my friends and like say whatever needs to be said. [SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't trying to cross a boundary there. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know that they were going to use it because they never brought it up.

58:20 [SPEAKER_00]: They never asked me a single question about anything I said in that video clip. [SPEAKER_00]: And that was early. [SPEAKER_00]: They just aired it. [SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't even know to be like, hey, just so you know, this is probably the I mean, I had like a gut feeling it was going to be in there, but I was like, oh, I'm not saying anything.

58:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying anything. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, hey, I'm now married to this guy who wants me to touch him all the time and doesn't want to touch me and you guys are, well, not everybody, but at least three fours of the couple here, you guys are all having sex and like, [SPEAKER_00]: He is like, really concerned about this and like this is so weird situation and we're married and then it can get to your religious but like, this is the loophole, right?

59:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is where you're supposed to be able to move that way and so then I also like, in conversations, he and I are having, I am made to feel very dirty and there's a lot of questioning of my sexual past [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I want to say, I don't know that this is a direct opening.

59:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It was said something to me along the lines of like, Well, I knew I was going to get married one day. [SPEAKER_00]: So I haven't been with very many people because I was waiting to be respectful to you and you didn't give me the same courtesy. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, do I didn't know you existed?

59:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to apologize for something that like, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I didn't know you and I didn't know I was going to do this and like, whatever, and then we did start having sex about halfway through and then it was, why, why, why, why, why, why, why.

1:00:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was very uncomfortable with that and everybody else that was filming knew what was going on. [SPEAKER_00]: I. [SPEAKER_00]: like had a lot of the producers but everybody knew and it was just like this weird thing where it's like oh no we're not knowing it so it's fine so how did we flip the switch how did we go from everything but to actually having sex like was it a u thing was it a him thing was it [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, oh, we've hit this very arbitrary point in the process and you know what like I guess I can do this for you as if it was to me, which like, okay, I guess it was not because I also like I'm sorry, but if you tell me that you have a boundary.

1:01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I respect that. [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that I'm ranting to my friends about this and it maybe sounds like I'm pressuring him, but I'm not like, behind closed doors, I'm like, yeah, like, whatever you're comfortable with, like, that's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, do we have different viewpoints on this?

1:01:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but like, I'm not, I'm not going to force you in it anyway. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm pretty and I bring a lot to the table and like I don't feel like I should have to force anybody, especially somebody that I'm very to who you know, there was just so much new ones with the entire thing that I was like, am I an oh, like what what is there was just never a reason that really made sense to me other than the like I promised my mom I wouldn't which like [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

1:01:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Even then it's, if you did and didn't, anyways, um, so it didn't. [SPEAKER_00]: The mom's not for that. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So well, how did a producer's take it since they knew you were having sex and they obviously knew you were lying. [SPEAKER_01]: Did they where they didn't get you to say, oh, they didn't know you were lying.

1:02:16 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, they had their, they had their thoughts, but like some of them told me afterwards that they like genuinely didn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I thought you guys didn't have sex because by the reunion, yeah, the reunion Kevin is like, have you Consumated your marriage and we didn't like maybe maybe not maybe we have I was like, okay, maybe they just haven't had sex That was so cringy.

1:02:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So What is happening your marriage in a while? [SPEAKER_01]: It's off camera. [SPEAKER_00]: Please stop the games [SPEAKER_00]: I'm such an open book and like I know that they cast me because I'm so open and I'm so free to talk about things and I was just like whatever like just telling me what you're going to say I'm going to say I'm going to be done with it.

1:02:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so unfortunate. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you said that you knew you were going to say yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Your last dinner with Ryan, he made a comment and was like no matter what happens on decision day. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you guys have [SPEAKER_00]: What is it my favorite on the same page of like we are saying yes and they they try to force you to have conversations with people of like what if or I'm like or he might but we would we like refuse to play that game with them because we were like [SPEAKER_00]: We know, we know we're saying yes, so like I know you're just trying to do this to like make everything seem very like anxious, written, and then I don't know.

1:03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So we would ever comment was made that didn't make it seem like it was 100% yes was purely because we work like go to it and do it. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so despite all these things were the [SPEAKER_01]: Pros more than the cons because you also have the religious difference also with all of the things besides the light dying You eyes besides all of the things that we've been said the size of your sexual frustration You still weren't going to say yes with a pros more than the cons or was it a case of was it the special where someone said like You've just really and this is six years ago.

1:04:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying this is you now. [SPEAKER_01]: You just really want it to be married to him and you really want it to make you work [SPEAKER_00]: And is it like a, again, off camera, let's see if it gives it a, yeah, what was your mind set and saying yes, I, I really felt like, well, I made this decision and I made this commitment and like I'm the first divorce in my family, like I, I was raised quite religious, I clearly am not anymore, I wasn't even at the time of filming this, but I, it wasn't even like out of a religious sense of obligation, but it was just like, [SPEAKER_00]: I dragged my family into this process.

1:04:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I dragged my friends into this process. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, for me to have asked so much of the people in my life and have required so much support through this to then turn around and say, no, I'm walking away. [SPEAKER_00]: If I felt like a failure, and I didn't want to let down the people in my life who were doing so much to support me.

1:05:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanted to make my family proud and glad to hear. [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, I think a lot of women stay in bad marriages. [SPEAKER_00]: in order to keep the peace with their family and not feel like they failed and not see people disappointed in them, which like granted, my family was very supportive when it all came down to it and like could not have been better to me or about the situation.

1:05:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And this was me projecting on to other people, this was my fear, it wasn't because of the things they were saying, but at the same time, [SPEAKER_00]: I was coming to my mom with conversations and trying to explain to her and she's like, well, you just have to kind of keep trying, which my mom did not know the full picture.

1:06:04 [SPEAKER_00]: When she found out things that were going on that she didn't know about, she was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Got it that she gave me this advice to stay in this relationship because she was like, oh, I never would have told you that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I know next. [SPEAKER_00]: Why see you know, but again, I just I felt like I've made this command.

1:06:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to try the cameras are going to go away and like, There's there's nothing. [SPEAKER_00]: I could point to where I'm like, well, he didn't cheat on me. [SPEAKER_00]: And he didn't get a DUI in the middle of filming, like somebody else did. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, he didn't get somebody else pregnant, like somebody else.

1:06:39 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, there's just so many things. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe this is what's the best for me for the rest of my life. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this is the greatest relationship I can look forward to. [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I was in a very bad place mentally by the end of filming.

1:07:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I was I have never in my life been wanting to end my life and I was in that place. [SPEAKER_00]: really in the film. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, I was so pulled in so many directions and I you're working full-time in your filming and then you're going home and you have this partner who doesn't what he didn't like me.

1:07:25 [SPEAKER_00]: He never liked me. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's just be honest, he didn't want to be with me. [SPEAKER_00]: He also just didn't want to look like the bad guy on national TV, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm being told all of these things behind closed doors and I'm myself worth it's in the gutter.

1:07:39 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, just trying to put one foot in front of the other. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, okay, well, I'm here. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm clearly unlovable. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the best I can do with the rest of my life. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's so difficult to even explain how warped your mind is when you're young.

1:07:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you're being manipulated kind of in all fronts to do and say what people want you to do and say, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say yes because I was in survival mode. [SPEAKER_00]: Truly. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like it was an isolating experience.

1:08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anyone who knew, because you just said, Dick, your mom didn't know the full extent? [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anyone you could talk to that knew everything you were going through or you just went through that by yourself? [SPEAKER_00]: Um, my, my one prize made that was a flight attendant who flew in, um, but she lived in Texas.

1:08:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So she wasn't there Virginia knew quite a bit. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and there was definitely a day that I showed up to film. [SPEAKER_00]: The day where we like did that double date where I was talking about like, oh, if you don't actually will make. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, we filmed that scene like four times.

1:08:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I hit a point where I was like Virginia. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna drive my car into oncoming traffic. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't do it anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm max out. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what to do. [SPEAKER_00]: And she was very, so supportive. [SPEAKER_00]: And was like, she like walked up to the headproducer and was like, Claire is going home.

1:09:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's done, she doesn't feel good. [SPEAKER_00]: She's going home. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, you know, concept check-ins and even after we stopped filming, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there were times where I was like at her apartment and she's, you know, she's just checking in and she like I would make comments about like, you know, things in the future and she'd be like, Do you do you really think you're going to be with him for it when do you really think you're going to be able to be okay with this and I'd be like, no, I don't think so, but we'll figure it out and like, [SPEAKER_00]: I think that relationship would have been the end of my life quite frankly.

1:09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It was I was just in such a such a dark place. [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, she definitely was the like the main person who was kind of there day in and day out to sort of watch what was going on and like pull me on. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I know you mentioned the experts were not much help, but what are the provisions made for mental health?

1:10:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And for you guys, especially, again, everyone was confused with COVID. [SPEAKER_01]: That's an extra layer of everything else that's going, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, hypothetically, I think there was like, I know before we divorced, there was like therapy sessions that we went through, like a couple of therapy, and I think the individual people at the end of the show were offered like three free therapy sessions or something, [SPEAKER_00]: you had to ask and it wasn't something that was like super helpful, you know, like the experts weren't there and I hope with your mental health by any means.

1:10:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all that sucks. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just such a stressful thing to go through that you would hope. [SPEAKER_01]: that there's some kind of support out there for that. [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I guess, long story short, it was like, you knew something was off, but you couldn't pinpoint something horrible, so you're like, maybe it's me.

1:11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I just need to power through and, you know, it'll be better out there. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, bye, the reunion. [SPEAKER_01]: What were you thinking? [SPEAKER_01]: That whole reunion felt like a show. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I just felt like smile dear, smile. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm smiling and smiling.

1:11:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It did that was the whole vibe that it was giving. [SPEAKER_01]: So by that point, did you know the beginning of the end or were you still feeling like I can make this? [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, how long after was that after decision day? [SPEAKER_00]: So decision day was like, how am I going to say in the reunion was Valentine's Day?

1:11:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, like we filmed it over two days. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it was like 13th and 14th or 14th and 15th. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: In the end it was it was very like here's the thing about [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just call it Spade Manipulative Man is they're often incredibly smart and it wasn't like I was being told you have to do this.

1:12:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It was proven to me that if I said something that wasn't what he wanted me to say, I was going to deal with the consequences of his emotions later on right like it was in my best interest to [SPEAKER_00]: go with flow and keep my opinions to myself, otherwise I'm walking on eggshells for the next however long.

1:12:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I want to say it was in February of, sometimes within the like spring of that year, I actually try to leave and call it quits. [SPEAKER_00]: And I tried to walk away, [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, no, like, let's just, let's try, let's try. [SPEAKER_00]: And we went like a good three months after that without fighting at all, there were no issues.

1:12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was like, when he decided he was done, it was just done. [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, all of a sudden, we went three months without fighting and then he picked up like, we went to visit, we were like, we'll be in houses. [SPEAKER_00]: We went to go view houses and we came home one day and he was basically like, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really see a future with you, so you can pack yourself and leave.

1:13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like kind of just a crazy, like, but like, I knew things were wrong, but then I had this renewed hope because we like how to few months where things were totally fine. [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was like, all of a sudden he was picking fights and then within like a week of him picking a fight, it was like, yeah.

1:13:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go back to what you just said, where you said, you know, if you didn't do, not like you were told, but if you didn't do what you were expected to do, you might get the consequences of his actions, just for it to be very clear. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you mean like silent treatment. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, again, okay.

1:13:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't being it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, I mean, he would go. [SPEAKER_00]: Entire. [SPEAKER_00]: days, like a day without speaking to me at all, or would speak to me, but it would be very passive-aggressive, or, you know, when you can just tangibly feel the energy coming off another person, like, I know you're mad at me.

1:14:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Can we have a conversation about it? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm fine. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and like, just always upset, and I was always falling short, and it was like, [SPEAKER_00]: What I see now is that, like, if he was upset with me about something, he would not tell me necessarily, it's not like he would yell at me and be like, well, you did this thing that you weren't supposed to do.

1:14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no. [SPEAKER_00]: He'd be upset about that. [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden, he's picking a fight about something entirely different. [SPEAKER_00]: And you, you don't realize the correlation between those two things until you're, you know, far removed or like, why is it that [SPEAKER_00]: something happened.

1:14:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Your energy is really off. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I'm in trouble. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking you if everything's okay, you're saying it's fine. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the next day you're paying a $5 something entirely unrelated so that I can't come back and be like, oh, you're mad at me for this.

1:15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you weren't cute. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not mad at you for that. [SPEAKER_00]: The mind games were just like constant. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just very [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, gaslighting and manipulative and like constant, just walking on eggshells. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Like again, but he didn't yell and he didn't hit me and he, so it's hard to point to anything and be like, well, you know, he did this, like with sort of like, again, I don't, I don't want to say anything that's going to like [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I'm diagnosed with anything so you know whatever, but you know if you've been in any of those types of relationships you you understand sort of the the Yeah, I just wanted it, you know, just for you to give that clarification because now the internet and everybody just make their own run to their own conclusion and just you know with that case.

1:16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: Well, um, it seems like most of the drama was afterwards after you guys split because I think he did do an interview and I want to quote what he said Okay response to it. [SPEAKER_01]: It was like I think I found this online because actually was an E. You can't truly be open.

1:16:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It was his statement after you guys divorce. [SPEAKER_01]: You can't truly be open to Mary and other race and not want to marry their culture or at least at the minimum understand it. [SPEAKER_01]: The back experience and the back culture are not monolithic. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no one-size-fits-all shoe.

1:16:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's ever evolving and changing with time. [SPEAKER_01]: Any idea what he's referring to, whether it's incidents like, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I will, I could make a good quite a few statements on this. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I did a kickoff special for the season after us, something like that.

1:16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: For Boston, I believe. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: He, the day before that special went live, he dropped a whole thing on Instagram, [SPEAKER_00]: Um, which I believe was him kind of trying to get the jump on because he didn't know what I had said, right, in this special.

1:17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so it was like, let's just try to get ahead of the narrative. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and there were a lot of. [SPEAKER_00]: Half truth and outright lies in the whole thing, just quite frankly. [SPEAKER_00]: while I do not believe it is anybody's responsibility to educate me. [SPEAKER_00]: I do believe that if you have chosen to injure into a marriage with somebody, you should have conversations with them about things, to which I would be asking questions and be told like, it's not my responsibility to answer that for you.

1:18:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Which I do understand, but at the same time, [SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to, you're my husband. [SPEAKER_00]: And so how can I learn if you're unwilling to have conversations with me? [SPEAKER_00]: And there were also just so many things that were said that was like, I really was trying to do my best.

1:18:25 [SPEAKER_00]: There was stuff that was mentioned. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say about like being culturally insensitive because I didn't eat his mom's food. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a little bit of a way. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm allergic to pork. [SPEAKER_00]: If I go to your mom's house and she cooks pork and turkey and fish, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to eat the turkey.

1:18:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't even mean where it's like, yeah, yes, technically I did refuse food. [SPEAKER_00]: I carry an happy pen. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, like, is it a truth? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, is it a truth? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, maybe check my phone at your parents house. [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, but it's not like I was ever like sitting in spaces and ignoring you.

1:18:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_00]: Like there were so many little calls in there where it's like, [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I guess technically I might have made this comment, but you're removing all context from an entire year's worth of relationship here. [SPEAKER_00]: And like, did I have a lot to learn about interracial relationships and the black experience, of course?

1:19:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And I still do. [SPEAKER_00]: And I had a lot of conversations with my black friends and family members during this experience after this experience. [SPEAKER_00]: from what I understand, his experience is very different from the majority of people that I know in a way that it was hard for me to even take the things he was saying to me and then turn around and ask for guidance because my friends would be like, what is he talking about?

1:19:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want it's such a tough thing to talk about and at the time that that whole, [SPEAKER_00]: Statement was made. [SPEAKER_00]: I reached out to people who I trust in the space of married at first sight, who don't say anything about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't respond, don't talk about it, like, whatever.

1:20:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I never stood up for myself and I never got to sort of like give any context because I was invited not to. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want that to be like a soullacious, they had one right at the same time. [SPEAKER_00]: Six years later, people do still ask me about this and I'm like, I never got to defend myself.

1:20:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And... [SPEAKER_00]: I, and I don't know how to, like, in the whole, like, I, you, I do find that, like, there's a lot of context on the internet where people are very angry with people, for not knowing things that they don't know, and it's like, I don't, I don't know anything until I'm told, right?

1:20:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I can do as much research as I want, and I can have as many conversations as I can, but like, until you come to me and say, like, hey, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: this specific thing happened and that was not appropriate. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that. [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, me, guys.

1:21:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's part of the conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's it's a tough thing and without it being in specifics because I mean, I would speak for myself where it's just like there's certain things where I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: It's 2026. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, back then it was 20 one or whatever.

1:21:32 [SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of information out there for certain things and then there's different context because again, no context, but he is right where the black culture is not monolithic everyone has different things you add like family history and different things, you know, for that so it's not.

1:21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: something anyone can speak on. [SPEAKER_01]: So I hear what you're saying in that you don't know what you don't know, but he was your husband. [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't have the chance to date. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the learning period for you guys from what you're saying. [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels like he wasn't open at all, you know, to helping you with that.

1:22:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also like I'm being told, [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I'm not happy with you right now. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, why can you explain it? [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not Arizona's ability to explain it to you. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know what to do with that, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're telling me you're mad at me, but you can't pinpoint why, so how am I supposed to then turn around and learn something if I don't even know what I'm, how do you Google something you've not been told?

1:22:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And I always felt like I was kind of fighting an uphill battle in the like, [SPEAKER_00]: Again, he never liked me. [SPEAKER_00]: He was never going to like me. [SPEAKER_00]: I could have done all the research in the world. [SPEAKER_00]: I could have written a book. [SPEAKER_00]: And it would have been something else.

1:22:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I'm not to say that I didn't make mistakes. [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't say things that probably were wrong. [SPEAKER_00]: But it's so hard to know things you don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And when your inner relationship with somebody, you want that to be a safe space to have conversations and learn and grow.

1:23:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't given that and I do think it impacted quite frankly like I was more than anything shocked at the accusation or whatever at the statement made because race like wasn't even kind of a factor in why the relationship ended. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it wasn't discussed in the end of the relationship.

1:23:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_00]: Like religion was a big thing. [SPEAKER_00]: It always came back to religion. [SPEAKER_00]: Race was like definitely conversations we had, but it wasn't like a point of contention within the relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was like, and that came out, I was like, just kind of a slap in the face in the sense of like, why it, like, that's not the thing that I would have thought [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

1:24:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And I've thought about this so many times, you're the only interview I've ever gotten about married a first-site outside of the one-on-ass he and I did. [SPEAKER_00]: And I've thought so many times over the years, like, oh, if anybody ever asked me about this, I would have something very poignant to say, but when it comes down to it, it was just like, I really was trying my best.

1:24:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I really did not intend to be culturally and significantly in sensitive, sensitive, and sensitive. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: I learned a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hoping, let me, like you said, like if it's the food, you had an allergy and things like that, the problem was like, it was vague.

1:24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And when it's vague in that way, which is why like earlier, it was like, can you clarify what you said? [SPEAKER_01]: You just run with it, like, what is the thing that was done because comparison, saying something really terrible is not the same as, oh, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to hurt you or fork because I'm allergic, you know?

1:24:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you don't know, that's when it's like, okay, what is it that he's talking about or what not? [SPEAKER_01]: But I do want to ask though, because I know you've dated [SPEAKER_01]: It was a marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: Like was this different, you know, into, okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, of truly, I mean, like, yes, I've dated out of time.

1:25:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I raised before, but like, I don't know, race was like just kind of not really ever parts of those relationships. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, that sounds so stupid. [SPEAKER_00]: But like, I also have like family gatherings or like food. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like, oh, grandma came into town and [SPEAKER_00]: you know now we're celebrating a holiday that I've not celebrated with my family like I don't I don't know I [SPEAKER_00]: It was just never quite.

1:25:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And what's funny now, too, is like my partner is French gradient. [SPEAKER_00]: His family is all French. [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm learning so much about French culture. [SPEAKER_00]: And like you, you just learn by experience, but it is different when it's a marriage that you were dropped into where I didn't have time to prepare myself.

1:26:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And I also always kind of felt like I was being set up for failure in that like, if your family does something [SPEAKER_00]: I would hope that you would tell your partner that ahead of time as opposed to watching them fail a test they don't either take it and then getting mad at them for failing it.

1:26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You know. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, that was his feelings. [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say at the end of the day, in relationship, only the two people in the relationship know what happened. [SPEAKER_01]: You said you learned from it, you guys separated, and you're probably happier.

1:26:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You are happier, not, you know, being together. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: We'll go into like happy or things like I don't want anyone to think like you know downplaying it or not like you know Clara said this is the first time that she's talking about this you know it's been so many years before and it is [SPEAKER_01]: something that's sensitive, but it's a conversation that we had to have, just like she's saying, like it's important, race is always important, especially in our country right now.

1:27:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's again, back then, it was like the heat of the hype, sorry, of everything that was going on. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's unfortunate, I don't think I realized that the experts were not part of it, because that would be a time, especially in an interracial relationship and all of it that comes with that, it would have been nice.

1:27:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if I told you this too, we, they wanted us to have conversations about race on camera, and he would not allow it. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: And then now that's the reason but I don't really stop to talk about them when they're here. [SPEAKER_01]: It's about your story and your perspective and your, your, your better person for it.

1:27:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's put it that way. [SPEAKER_01]: So what was your favorite part [SPEAKER_00]: I think favorite part, just the friendship formed with the girls was just so lovely. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, pages getting married in the fall and we're all invited even all these years later. [SPEAKER_00]: And like we just grew to be so close so quickly, least ever part, everything else.

1:28:15 [SPEAKER_00]: So. [SPEAKER_00]: That's just a lot of pleasant experience for me. [SPEAKER_00]: It was, it was a lot of, I felt like I was kind of [SPEAKER_00]: I have said many times over the years that the person that I was before I went into married at first sight died. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just a whole new person.

1:28:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It changed my personality. [SPEAKER_00]: It changed how I approach relationships and friendships and family. [SPEAKER_00]: And for the better and for the worse, I mean, there was a lot that had to be worked through afterwards, but it was a transformative [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I hope the pros were more, you know, than the cons.

1:29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I still wait in that, okay, then when I show you it, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, do you keep in touch with anyone outside of your season? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you close to anyone outside of your season? [SPEAKER_00]: Beth and I shot quite a bit from Charlotte, I talked to you more than just about anybody else.

1:29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I work in social media management. [SPEAKER_00]: And so anytime I have a brand that wants to do partnerships, then I think would be for anybody in the math's family. [SPEAKER_00]: I've, I reach out, you know, sent Ashley and Anthony some [SPEAKER_00]: some goodies a couple weeks ago in Amber and you know I we may not chat off and everybody's kind of got their own lives right like so many of these people are married with kids and like yeah they're own world but yeah Beth is the one I definitely I love her she's just like such a raves I'm fine and she had a really tough goal of it with her partners as well but okay um biggest reality she'll take away I'm scared to ask would you do it again

1:30:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I would love to go on like traitors or the mole or like something that's a more of like a game show I would yeah a million years to do. [SPEAKER_00]: any sort of dating. [SPEAKER_00]: And I've had so many people come to me over the years and be like, I'm in the running for this show where that show and I'm always like, run, run.

1:30:26 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I would definitely not, though it has changed my entire experience of viewing reality TV. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can't watch it after living it in the same way. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of fun. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll like feel like I have like behind the scenes. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I always I always say like I did this with Alexis from the San Diego season and she just always said she's like if they told me what they wanted for me out of just giving it to them because now I know if they want me to be the villain, then I'll just play the villain, but put me in the nose.

1:30:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know what's happening. [SPEAKER_01]: So I can play my part. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the case. [SPEAKER_01]: I know you watch love island. [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of your other favorite reality shows? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh, Max and I are like addicted. [SPEAKER_00]: We do love Island, love is blinds.

1:31:15 [SPEAKER_00]: The ultimate, ultimate and queer love, which RIP canceled. [SPEAKER_00]: Traders, the mold was like always my favorite and then we did revamp seasons of that one. [SPEAKER_00]: So we did watch Survivor 50, though I don't normally do Survivor. [SPEAKER_00]: We've watched like everything on Netflix.

1:31:40 [SPEAKER_00]: We've watched every version of like strangers lying to each other for a million dollars. [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many of those. [SPEAKER_01]: We also, the pattern is competitive reality shows. [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to be competitive for the most part. [SPEAKER_00]: But we do do the loved ones.

1:31:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we all love his blinds. [SPEAKER_00]: Ask shows. [SPEAKER_00]: We do those as well. [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect match, temptation island. [SPEAKER_00]: Temptation. [SPEAKER_00]: All last season, temptation island was good. [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect match. [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't really get into.

1:32:07 [SPEAKER_00]: That's like the outlier, but for the most part, we won't give anything a shot. [SPEAKER_00]: If funny enough, Max friends are very into reality TV, like he has a couple people that he's worked with. [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's like, oh, so until work was talking about this show. [SPEAKER_00]: So now we've got to watch it.

1:32:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can go back and talk to him about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, try it out. [SPEAKER_01]: That's cool. [SPEAKER_01]: So any final words, anything you want to get up your chest, anything you want to say out there, if you think you were a miss on this dude, just tears your chance like anything.

1:32:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think, you know, I appreciate, I, I was edited quite well from from what I understand. [SPEAKER_00]: People were very kind to me throughout my experience of people watching and they [SPEAKER_00]: for those who maybe focused on where I fell short, I appreciate any grace that you extended and I am just glad to have experienced something that most people don't get to experience and learned how to be a better partner.

1:33:16 [SPEAKER_00]: for my current partner, you know, based on on the experiences that I had. [SPEAKER_00]: So it was a very tough experience, no excuses for anything that are done, just explanation of, I always feel like I'm trying my best to be the best version I can for everybody, and I hope that that came across.

1:33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything you want to promote, share where people can find you? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm most active on TikTok just at Claire Berkis. [SPEAKER_00]: I am on Instagram and threads. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess same season everywhere. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't post nearly as much on there, but TikTok I'm always chatting reality TV or [SPEAKER_00]: Just daily shenanigans, whatever, but I don't, I don't know.

1:34:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any like brands to quote. [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't done more than the realm of like influencer culture by any means. [SPEAKER_00]: So, mainly just if you want to listen to me, gab, check out TikTok, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you miss being a flight attendant? [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't, I miss the travel, but COVID really changed how people move through the world and people got kind of mean in a way that I was like, I'm not getting paid enough, like my friend got spit on by a grown man and I'm like, you just weren't paying me enough for that.

1:34:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And so. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good, I work from home. [SPEAKER_01]: I hang out, I have a good time. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, that's good. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, guys, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what you find, me, it's Taint Talks, and all your social media.

1:34:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Please give me a five star rating on Apple Podcast and Spotify. [SPEAKER_01]: If you have any questions for Clara, let me know and I'll ask her and if she answers it, I'll let you know what the answers are. [SPEAKER_01]: But stay subscribed so you don't miss out on any new episodes and until next time, guys.

1:35:16 [UNKNOWN]: One, two, one. [UNKNOWN]: Time. [UNKNOWN]: Cool.