Unlocked Bonus Episode - Unknown Number: The High School Catfish w/Ade

0:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another bonus episode and also call MEFS. [SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Tain. [SPEAKER_01]: And my guest today is the lovely aid. [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, aid. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? [SPEAKER_00]: I am all right. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm great.

0:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Can't you tell? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So today we are discussing a documentary on Netflix called the Unknown Number [SPEAKER_01]: Um, aid. [SPEAKER_01]: What is your general summary thought about this documentary? [SPEAKER_00]: So, of course, this is batshit is the only, like, way to respond to the full documentary.

0:53 [SPEAKER_00]: But I did enjoy that I did not know the pig reveal in the middle. [SPEAKER_00]: I watched it. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I watched it again when I did know and that's even crazier. [SPEAKER_00]: What about you? [SPEAKER_01]: So I knew I saw it on the news, but I didn't know that this was the documentary But then when I said seeing it and people saying oh the big reveal the why we saying the big reveal like we're not going to spoil it But but the big reveal and I was like wait is that the one that was on the news the whole time so [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of spoiled it a little bit.

1:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think my jaw would have been on the floor, but because I did second guess myself. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew, but I was just like, surely, they're not gonna make this person just and if you regularly look like a noble person, so maybe I am mistaken, but it's still pretty shocking. [SPEAKER_00]: It's shocking, I think also the way they present it.

1:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lot of people, [SPEAKER_00]: are really mad at the fact that the perpetrator got to be in the documentary. [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually do want to hear from them. [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not mad at them. [SPEAKER_00]: Why would they be mad at that? [SPEAKER_00]: They're like it's platforming and abuser.

2:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my gosh, tell them you love me. [SPEAKER_00]: Which we also covered. [SPEAKER_00]: I think is a bonus. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: To me, I'm like regular actually. [SPEAKER_00]: I need people to have some faith in themselves. [SPEAKER_00]: I need you to be able to be presented with something and then to draw your own conclusions.

2:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to take what she is saying as truth or you can, you have the opportunity to do some critical thinking. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's okay for her to come and say whatever it is that she wants to say. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually, I would like to hear from anyone who is mad that she's on there because I would have thought it was a huge gap if she wasn't on, because that would be all that's on my mind, it's like why, I mean it doesn't make a difference because I don't feel like we know why, she did it, and like I said, I don't know why we're talking about this.

2:59 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have not watched the documentary, well, spoiler alert, it was the mother. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's who we're talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: And the summary of this documentary is that there was a girl and she was being cybers, stalked, bleed, and sent horrific text messages for almost two years and come to find out that it was her mother doing it the whole time.

3:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And eight, I think I have told you about my encounter with stalking. [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, [SPEAKER_01]: This kind of struck a nerve because I'm trying to imagine at least I was an adult. [SPEAKER_01]: This was a 14-year-old girl in Guy. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: So her mother, main targets for these text messages was her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend.

3:52 [SPEAKER_00]: They started when both children were 13 years old. [SPEAKER_00]: And the nature of the text messages is, I mean, vulgar seems like the wrong word. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they are very sexual messages. [SPEAKER_00]: So they say things like, [SPEAKER_00]: You're to the girl your boyfriend.

4:09 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't a paraphrasing. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to quote any of these Your boyfriend's never going to want you if you don't give him blow jobs, and I'm willing to give him blow jobs Like sort of that's like the vein of them. [SPEAKER_00]: You're ugly. [SPEAKER_00]: You're fit your anorexic Why would he want your flat ass like these are the types of messages?

4:27 [SPEAKER_00]: There are multiple messages where she tells her daughter to kill herself [SPEAKER_01]: It's nothing makes sense and I don't all make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you particularly think that this was well done? [SPEAKER_01]: the documentary? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

4:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We're in the same page of that. [SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like a lot more could have been done with this, but let's backtrack a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: The documentary does start with them putting a thing up there saying starts with all the text messages are real. [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is not fake.

5:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's based in Bill City, Michigan. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I've ever heard of that city. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, before it's a small town people there. [SPEAKER_00]: So why would you? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know you'd ever know. [SPEAKER_01]: And the dot is named as Lauren and it's a small town.

5:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Her high school is Bill city high school. [SPEAKER_01]: It is very small. [SPEAKER_01]: They have a whole group of friends other people that we're going to hear from Sophie Owen, who's the up-white ex-boyfriend, and Macy. [SPEAKER_01]: And they tell us, I think they're setting the stage for us and telling us that they have nothing better to do than talk about each other.

5:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Even the parents, that's all they do, and is basically toxic. [SPEAKER_01]: And everyone is addicted to their phones. [SPEAKER_01]: When the text message starts, it's around Halloween or something, and they were getting like 40-50 texts a day from an unknown number, and then they started getting texts about Owen, who is the boy that was 13.

5:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The text message stopped, but then 11 months after they started again, and then they could never figure out who he was, but they were just all these little clues [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they paid enough attention to that. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, see, there's the way the documentary presents it.

6:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was an article in the cut. [SPEAKER_00]: I had a hell of a time trying to find one that wasn't pay-walled, which is terrible, support journalism. [SPEAKER_00]: But I found it, and I read it. [SPEAKER_00]: And it definitely took them a while to figure it out. [SPEAKER_00]: They were like, the documentary makes it seem like they didn't figure it out until a certain point and they're like, no, we suspected about probably, I mean, not much earlier, but maybe a month or two before when they make it seem in the documentary.

6:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think there were some clues in there because I think the only one note I took, we wanted to text that was being sent. [SPEAKER_01]: Something that was said in a line was your sweet girl. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know any teenager that would say that. [SPEAKER_00]: There was people went back and forth in like, it has to be one of the kids or it has to be an adult.

7:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that because there was a lot of red herrings. [SPEAKER_00]: So at one point, you know, the perpetrator framed another child for this and she did a pretty good job of framing her. [SPEAKER_00]: Chloe, yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they did. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, [SPEAKER_01]: They would call the golden couple.

7:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Owen and Lauren, and I'm trying to figure was her mom, was her mom jet, what where do you lean? [SPEAKER_01]: Was her mom jealous of Lauren or was her mom infatuated with Owen? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, both. [SPEAKER_00]: She was infatuated with Owen. [SPEAKER_00]: I think in her mind, this is like pure conjecture.

7:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I think in her mind, she was like, oh, when I was 13, this is the type of boyfriend I wish I had. [SPEAKER_00]: And instead of being like a normal person and seeing that your daughter has this like nice looking boy who seems kind and [SPEAKER_00]: good um she's like oh I I want that um yeah I think that she was more obsessed with Owen and her daughter was kind of a like a collateral damage.

8:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I hell of a collateral damage because um I don't know why you put your daughter in this situation. [SPEAKER_01]: By the way I think like Lauren reminded me of Dakota fending I don't know he's he it. [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Just, that poor child, I mean, because that the end of it, it's like, well, Owen, if someone does something to you and they're not your mother, it makes a difference.

8:47 [SPEAKER_00]: To be both a victim of what happened and to have it come from your own mother, I think is worse than the situation that Owen is in is where he is a victim of a pedophile, if you ask me. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I just, it seemed like, I'm actually grateful that they solved this because it seemed like that we're not going to be able to do anything about this because in the beginning when there were questions in the kids and then doing so vans to see who was texting, while the messages were coming in, I'm like, this seems impossible.

9:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone is on their phone all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: You already said that. [SPEAKER_01]: How is that a solution to try and figure this out? [SPEAKER_01]: And then somewhere along the line, it was the discussion about access to the cell phone and the principle is like, well, we can't take their phones from them.

9:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I work a lot from my phone and you know, this can be used as an educational tool and I'm like, sorry, you're a 53 year old man. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not quite the same with the kids. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know why it took them so long, like when they were trying to access it, I thought it would be a simple cyber thing of exactly eventually what happened.

9:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Some cyber specialists coming in and just tracking IPs and tracking cell towers. [SPEAKER_01]: Why did it seem like it was an impossible thing to do and it wasn't first choice? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this town, just to give you a idea of the size of the town, K through 12 is in one building and there are about 50 students per grade.

10:21 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a big school, it's not a big town. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I'm assuming their police force does, is not full of resources. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't, there's a lot of questions about why did they take the phones away from the kids? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the cut article actually did a good job of being like, we do not, we do not have kids this age.

10:42 [SPEAKER_00]: We, it has been 20 years since we were in high school or longer, they don't use the phones the same way. [SPEAKER_00]: Like we think all, you're just like talking and texting and getting on social media that you probably shouldn't be on at that age. [SPEAKER_00]: Like they're like, you know, if you're in the band, the band uses an app are used to be in the color guard.

11:04 [SPEAKER_00]: So I used to march with the marching band. [SPEAKER_00]: We used to get little pieces of paper to tell us what our choreography was and where we're supposed to be on the field. [SPEAKER_00]: Now they do that on their phones. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a basic part of an extracurricular activity.

11:17 [SPEAKER_00]: The solution just can't be. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's take away the phones. [SPEAKER_00]: Change the numbers. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they didn't do that. [SPEAKER_00]: Their justification was, well, if we change the numbers, then the person won't be able. [SPEAKER_00]: If you change the numbers, and they still have the number, that's a clue.

11:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Who'd you give the number two? [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't knowing though because it was a scene where Owens Mom Jill was crying and asking about tracking, can they do anything and the cop just keep saying, well, can you get him a new phone? [SPEAKER_01]: Can you get him a new phone?

11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen how much phone is cost? [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't have to get him a new phone. [SPEAKER_00]: Change the diaper. [SPEAKER_00]: How much does it cost to change the diaper? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the car's anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed like a...

12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: lost cause, but I mean, the messages I had changing from being, um, trashy and suddenly saying, being about suicide, especially when Owen and Lauren eventually broke up, because what they thought was like, the whoever was one of them to break up and when they eventually did break up, it things just got worse.

12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it became about suicide and then kill yourself [SPEAKER_01]: which I think is 15 months too long. [SPEAKER_00]: But that was once again on the parents, why, why, who, why didn't you guys go to the police? [SPEAKER_00]: I, I'm trying, it wasn't that long ago either. [SPEAKER_00]: Like this happened after the pandemic.

12:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So like 2021? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was 2020 during the pandemic. [SPEAKER_01]: By the fall, I think the tech started. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's just very odd that I'm like do we not understand that if your child is being cyber stalked and the person is giving signs that they know things about your child what she's wearing what he's wearing what where like clearly they're not there's someone who is in your physical presence and you still don't think this is a crime [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially since there were minors.

13:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So in my case, just for a quick summary, I was just getting like at least 50, 60 calls and the worst I got like 100 is something back to back every day, had to turn off my phone and I eventually went to the cops but they said they couldn't do anything. [SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing they could do to.

13:30 [SPEAKER_01]: They were not breaking any law and stuff because I tried to file a police report. [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, well, they don't know, you know, what state they're in and what laws and all that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: But in their case, because they're minors, I'm thinking like they had a case that they could stand on.

13:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But mentally, I can't imagine what that does, because I know how I felt knowing that I didn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I had an idea who was, but I didn't know what they look like physically, and just wondering, and but they knew things about me. [SPEAKER_01]: And they would tell me things about me, say things about my physical features, [SPEAKER_01]: a phone, it was like, you know, copy my email address and at the time my Facebook profile and copy all the people.

14:11 [SPEAKER_01]: You just feel so vulnerable that I'm trying to imagine how they felt as young as they were every day. [SPEAKER_01]: Like how could she get up every day and want to go to school? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know it's Lauren and Owen, but I don't know why I'm fixated on Lauren. [SPEAKER_01]: I think probably because it was her mom.

14:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But Owen is just as much a victim in this. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a sense of feeling unsafe, I guess, all around every day for almost two years. [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that her mom is one who did it, her mom is one who saw her every day, saw how getting sad, saw her just not knowing what to do.

14:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand when I watch these documentaries and people are free. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the thing that I would never understand. [SPEAKER_01]: Why is this really not like institutionalized, I guess, at the very least? [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: So people were making fun of the principle because he has scribed a possible motive as a manchalism by proxy.

15:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And people were like, that's crazy. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, that doesn't make sense. [SPEAKER_00]: Look, the whole point of manchalism is you get to be the center of attention. [SPEAKER_00]: You get lots of medical professionals, [SPEAKER_00]: you know rubbing your back and saying how brave and strong you are to deal with this difficult child in their illness, it's a form of getting attention.

15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you keep your child in crisis for two years, lots of people will sympathize with you will, like in the cut article they talk about [SPEAKER_00]: liked, telling people about the messages, oh, we just got another one, Lauren, so I said, Lauren, show them the message, and even Lauren would be like, I don't really want to show them the message, because, yeah, you get a lot of attention, a lot of attention.

16:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there were multiple things going on here. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when they were interviewing the kids, at different points in time, I just got wondering, how are they able to do that without a parent present? [SPEAKER_01]: Is that even legal? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you mean the cops interviewing or the, yeah, I think they're sure.

16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: If when it was interviewing like the kids, like at some point in the interview, Chloe, they need to be Lauren and Macy, but I don't think I saw a parrot present. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, I didn't think about that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, is that legal? [SPEAKER_01]: That is, that is not legal.

16:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Not legal, not for anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I will say though what I appreciate, I do appreciate that we have body cam point of view for everything and every step because it's a completely different story when we can see what happened. [SPEAKER_01]: So when they go in and the match comes back and it's with Kendra.

16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: when they go confront her in the house. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, was it a party? [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was a shit ton of alcohol on the dining table. [SPEAKER_00]: That's what everybody noticed. [SPEAKER_00]: So, sorry, I keep on referring to the cut article, but it was good. [SPEAKER_01]: So long, Ades, that was me, guys.

17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I did, I tried. [SPEAKER_01]: I read some of it, but like I quit at some point. [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, I'm like, I love long-form journalism, but it's true. [SPEAKER_00]: I do. [SPEAKER_00]: I love long-form journalism, plus I read fast. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, but in the article, they kind of outlined a little bit more, because there was more going, there was more going on here than just these messages.

17:32 [SPEAKER_00]: There was also the financial difficulties that Kendra and her husband Sean were going through and the financial difficulties. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're quite extensive and one of the things because he said something about we moved four times which was actually before we found out that Kendra was the texture and I remember being like what is this moving four times to like get away from the stalker?

17:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Come to find out it's actually get another kind of double life she was living where she was responsible for paying bills, they would get evicted, they would get foreclosed on, she would make up lies about why they were moving, oh, we had to have our foundation repaired when really they had to move that out of that house because it was being foreclosed on the house that they ended up moving into where she the body cam is is not their house, I think it's his parent house because he's from there.

18:27 [SPEAKER_00]: um yeah but uh she look she look like she could have a drinking problem. [SPEAKER_01]: I just thought it was for the July and someday I get it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it was happening and to give more credence to the much housing by proxy or I don't know what it was. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, immediately she's been told about it like stop lying.

18:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We already know we know she's suddenly so concerned about her daughter. [SPEAKER_01]: She's now trying to hug, you know, Lauren and Jenna say like, how is she going to school? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this to be public like I want to keep this content. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, you did not think about that the whole time you were harassing her?

19:08 [SPEAKER_00]: That was one of the, that was actually the worst part of the documentary. [SPEAKER_00]: I got bored, it's not hugging her back. [SPEAKER_00]: It's also not pushing her away. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Shown is 15. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a hole. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, mark 14, 15. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what, I'm not judging Lauren for any reaction she may or may not have had.

19:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you're supposed to do, like this is your mother, your mother who has supported you and pretended like she is so, you know, not even pretending, probably actually is even as she's creating the hurt, she really, really wants you to feel better and provide comfort [SPEAKER_00]: that was she was just using her child like an emotional support blanket in that moment.

19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that's really to me that supports the whatever I think was the principal who said it that she just wanted her to need her. [SPEAKER_01]: And Sean comes by and do you believe I'm no, we're not going to believe anything that uh [SPEAKER_01]: Kendra says, because Kendra says that Sean knows more than he's admitting to, but he seemed also blindsided by the fact that she had not been working for a year.

20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: She was supposed to have two jobs, but she did not have either of them. [SPEAKER_01]: She was faking her work calls. [SPEAKER_01]: I read that far and look at her. [SPEAKER_01]: And he had no idea. [SPEAKER_01]: He thought that she just quit, but she was let go [SPEAKER_00]: The way that they show it on the show is not so there had been before they came and did the search warrant to get the phones it had been about a month of people kind of whispering we think it might be Kendra yeah like Chloe's dad though a mom who are they are both assholes victims in this case but still assholes wait what do you see that?

21:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Their child is why I don't want to speak ill of it minor child although I think she's 18 now [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't care for some of their commentary. [SPEAKER_00]: I do think their daughter was probably a bully. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have it on my notes. [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to ask like, how do you feel because even Owen was like, I mean, she wasn't a bully, but she really wasn't the nicest.

21:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was just his nice way of saying, like, okay, she was me, girl. [SPEAKER_00]: She was not nice. [SPEAKER_00]: The part where they tried to act like Lauren and Sean aren't victims, and they directly say they're going to act like victims. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and they think they're so funny and what I'm like, no, they are you really talking about a child this way?

21:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Forget Sean, you really are talking about Lauren this way? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so yes, the rumors had been swirling that Kendra was probably the one before they served the search warrant. [SPEAKER_00]: So neither Sean nor Lauren was probably like they were probably shocked to have it confirmed.

22:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But even the way the sheriff was talking, he was very indirect. [SPEAKER_00]: I, I felt like they spent way more time talking about her job and her lack of job than they did the message. [SPEAKER_01]: And, and this is probably my number one biggest gripe of this documentary. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they came hard enough like, okay, draw my thinking.

22:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is this? [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't just cover swipe $100 off the countertop. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, [SPEAKER_01]: Do we, do we understand the magnitude of what she did? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the producers program enough. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think her sentence was long enough.

22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think everyone is mad enough for her. [SPEAKER_01]: Like this would be a shame to be on TV smiling at us and telling us that everyone has made it in the state. [SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say enjoyed, but to me, we all watch her say that what she did is like getting, is like driving drunk, which also minimizes driving drunk because you know, you can kill people, um, Karen Hugo, anybody out of prison.

23:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but if someone says, oh, it's just like driving drunk and you have just seen those messages, you understand that you're not dealing with a reliable narrator or a person who has dealt with what they have done, you're dealing with a person who is still not taking accountability for what they have done.

23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I just can't believe that we were interviewing this woman normally [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the adjective is, and I get it, and I appreciate that directing style because it's for the shock value, but it's just even for her. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think she feels bad. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, about what she did.

23:56 [SPEAKER_00]: She still obsessed with her daughter. [SPEAKER_00]: Like the messages that she sent her when she was in prison were very disturbing to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very, I forgive you, girl. [SPEAKER_00]: Forgive you for what? [SPEAKER_00]: And then, okay, so this was another big issue that the documentary I've read in article.

24:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So they interviewed Lauren, the first time the interview her was when her mom was in prison and they were messaging back and forth. [SPEAKER_00]: Then a year and a half later, they interviewed Lauren again. [SPEAKER_00]: And the first time the interview her, she talks about re-establishing a relationship with her mom.

24:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The second time the interview, she talks about how well a lot of things have to happen before we can re-establish a relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: But then they go back to the year and a half ago when she said something different. [SPEAKER_00]: So they kind of didn't show that Lauren is clearly going [SPEAKER_00]: She, girls should take all the time that she needs, no rush from any of us, to figure out what exactly it is.

24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: She wants with her mom. [SPEAKER_00]: Like we wanna get to the natural conclusion is that you should never talk to that woman again. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: But she is at this point. [SPEAKER_00]: still a child. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she will eventually figure it out and she needs a space in the time to do so.

25:06 [SPEAKER_00]: But the documentary made it seem like, oh, I just, I just want a relationship with my mom. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, hmm, she said that, but she had some growth that they didn't really fully show. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, because that is what I, you know, when they find out everything with the body cam and Sean is like, go stay with your parents and she kept wanting to hook Lauren and saying, I can't leave her by herself, that moment, I think I wrote down, I don't care what happens.

25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Lauren is fucked for life. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's just absolutely not all trauma you can heal from. [SPEAKER_01]: You can learn to cope with it and move on with it. [SPEAKER_01]: But this is a lot to process. [SPEAKER_01]: And me, not knowing what you just said now, enlisting to her, say, you know, I still love my mom.

25:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I still want my mom. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a part of me is missing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, this woman has, is the word groomed in a way, [SPEAKER_01]: that she now feel that's why she was so confident because it was a part where they asked her how do you know what if she was going to hurt herself and Kendra is like this is going to sound weird but I know her we have conversations I know that she's not going to do that so I feel like she set herself up [SPEAKER_01]: for whatever it is that she's doing and she felt like she knew her daughter well enough?

26:27 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that she would have reveled in the attention if her daughter had killed herself. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh God. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this woman is really, really darkened to start. [SPEAKER_00]: Really, really darkened to start.

26:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This is where I worry for our justice system. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, why she not institution wise? [SPEAKER_00]: institutionalized or just charged a prop, I didn't even understand like I guess I don't really understand pedophilia laws because it's like, okay, well, there was no physical contact.

27:04 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no pictures or images and that's usually what people usually go to jail for when it comes to being a pedophile. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: And being sexually explicit, text messages to two minor children doesn't count, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's because, you know, when they set the laws, they're assuming everyone is normal and not going to do these things, but as these things arise, we need to make provisions for them.

27:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's my guess. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's been done before, is there anything in the law about sending lieu text messages to miners? [SPEAKER_00]: I think the fact that there are no pictures is like a real issue. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I am no legal scholar. [SPEAKER_00]: This is just me guessing.

27:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to be really clear about that, but that's my assumption is that even though we are looking at it, and we are like, this is very, very, very bad. [SPEAKER_00]: The law hasn't quite caught up, especially to the free speech parts of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but they need to amend it because there are things that didn't exist anymore.

28:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Like imagine if, I don't know, I'm just pulling something on my ass. [SPEAKER_01]: Someone opens an only fan's account that is very sexualized, sexual with a minor's information or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the day, there was nothing like only fan, so there's no provisions for it, but we have to make provisions as the world evolves.

28:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Images. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's right. [SPEAKER_00]: That's where the law, I think, is still stuck on images and physical contact. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I just, this is so shocking to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a person of few words, but this is a few words for me.

28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, at this point, I don't think there's anything Kendra could say that would make sense as to why she did what she did. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was really looking forward to seeing her point of view, but I was let down. [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing, she said, [SPEAKER_01]: was even close, like I said, she didn't seem remorseful.

28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: She was talking about how we have all broken the law and made mistakes and we're losing sight of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And some people will say she's the villain, but it's because we don't know the whole story. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, do I need to know your whole story to know why you would do this to your daughter?

29:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can come to my own conclusions without her. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the monthhouse and by proxy is a big one. [SPEAKER_00]: I think like there's so many different ways in which this craziness actually benefits her like you have your daughter leaning on you for emotional support at a time when usually teenage girls are getting the hell away from their mothers you have your crush on your daughter's boyfriend and a way to fantasize about him being yours.

29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: It's disgusting but I will say it. [SPEAKER_00]: She is a pedophile. [SPEAKER_00]: You have attention from the community. [SPEAKER_00]: Not only attention from the community, but sorry to go back to that cut article, but they talked about how Biel City is like very small town. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, and parents, both of them grew up in the small town.

30:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Sean, her husband grew up in this town. [SPEAKER_00]: She did not grow up there. [SPEAKER_00]: And so she wanted to ingratiate herself with people in town because she's technically an outsider. [SPEAKER_00]: And she gets to have an excuse now to keep on interacting with Owen's mom, even after the kids break up.

30:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I also found it very interesting that there was a whole thing about Owen was seeing a girl in pincloning. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and she managed to find the girl's mother's phone number to sense in harassing text messages that way. [SPEAKER_00]: Which once again is into gift to me about how it's kind of about her daughter, but really it's about Owen.

30:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about Owen. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I think in the article, they, they mentioned how Owen's mom was saying like even after they broke up, she kept inquiring. [SPEAKER_01]: about Owen's dating life, which is just weird. [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, that's not... [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, this poor child.

30:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the other lie that she kept her pepper tweeting is that she kept saying that she did not send those texts at Halloween, but I don't, I don't believe that. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she lied about it once so she just kept on lying about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You said all of them.

31:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like, uh, why would you pick up afterwards? [SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, you know, I just kind of did it to find the culprits that doesn't make any sense at all. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, do you think her dad is completely clean? [SPEAKER_00]: Um, clean about the text messages, yes.

31:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I really don't think she was lying about so many things. [SPEAKER_00]: The finances thing is very interesting to me. [SPEAKER_00]: I am very loosely acquainted with someone who whose husband was not paying the mortgage for a couple years and she had no idea. [SPEAKER_00]: She had no idea her house was in foreclosure.

32:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I believe that you could hide all, I don't, I'm single. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand how that married people do these things. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I don't understand how you could not know what's going on with your own finances because you've just kind of handed over to a spouse.

32:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I think what ends up happening is people know that there's not enough money, and instead of accepting that there's not enough money, [SPEAKER_00]: They handed to their spouse to figure out how to make like dollars out of dimes and then that way their hands off and then when it all goes to shit They're like, but I didn't know and I'm like, okay, but is your responsibility to know if your mortgage is getting paid?

32:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's your responsibility to know like what the balance of your bank account is before you go to the store. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like Sean if he didn't know that's his own fault. [SPEAKER_00]: He buried his head in the sand, but like she's not a reliable narrator, but Kendra was like, he kind of knew what was going on, but I'm like, I can't believe any of you say, I have to do the flip side of it though, which is that there is a thing called financial abuse where your spouse will not tell you about the finances and maybe that's what's going on with Kendra and Sean.

33:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But I want to throw that out there because that could be it too. [SPEAKER_00]: If especially because [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently for most of their marriage, she made more money. [SPEAKER_00]: He was a mechanic, and she was in IT, and she always just seemed to make more money. [SPEAKER_00]: So I definitely see a situation where she's like, well, you don't make the money anyway, so you don't get to decide how it's spent, so you just need to hand your paycheck over to me and I'll figure it out.

33:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how we end up with moving four times, because you're getting evicted and foreclosed on and you don't know anything about your finances. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I just wondered the dynamics of the family because as of right now, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren does not have contact with Kendra and Sean clearly has nothing to obviously has nothing to do with Kendra and she loves her dad and she loves her mom but of course is going to be complicated.

34:01 [SPEAKER_01]: If she does decide that she wants to move forward with her mom, how does that work? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I will say Chloe, I said Chloe, Chloe Owen and Lauren all graduated from high school this year and hopefully all three of them are headed Chloe is actually going to school.

34:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I think on an athletic scholarship of some kind. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, volleyball. [SPEAKER_00]: I just like. [SPEAKER_00]: I want this girl to go to college. [SPEAKER_00]: It's unfortunate that they'll know her story because there's an Netflix documentary. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Any hope she kind of had of getting away from it.

34:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This documentary probably killed. [SPEAKER_00]: And one day, I guess you can talk to your mom, but I really like my greatest wish for hers that by the time she's 25, she never speaks to her mother again. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I did think it was kind of sad that she and Owen just don't speak.

34:57 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not equipped. [SPEAKER_01]: They were not equipped to handle this much. [SPEAKER_01]: Anything like technically there's nothing for them to be mad about. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's also so much that happened that what is there to talk about anyways. [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, maybe I should start.

35:15 [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel, so I feel like part of the reason my own is upset with and not talking to Lauren is because I don't think she ever will like completely condemn her mother. [SPEAKER_00]: But I totally understand that. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, I feel like this is extreme. [SPEAKER_00]: My mother could commit murder.

35:35 [SPEAKER_00]: She's still good at you. [SPEAKER_00]: She's still your mother. [SPEAKER_00]: Any type of, and a teenager? [SPEAKER_00]: No, any type of break that's gonna happen is just gonna take some time, some reflection. [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully a whole lot of therapy was someone equipped to help you.

35:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think she was defending her mom, but I think that she couldn't condemn her in the way that Owen probably wanted, and that's why he can't talk to her. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's probably healthiest for both of them. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did have that question. [SPEAKER_01]: Is Lauren in therapy?

36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: No one talked about that. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Because if she's not, she should be. [SPEAKER_01]: It is a lot to unpack. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand why her father did not move her out of town. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why she's forced to stay in that school.

36:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was sweet in the article. [SPEAKER_00]: They talked about how she and Macy still eat lunch together every day. [SPEAKER_00]: They just don't talk about this. [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't say, oh no, she only finished her junior year or sophomore year online online. [SPEAKER_00]: She left school.

36:36 [SPEAKER_00]: But I just don't understand Sean should have taken her elsewhere. [SPEAKER_00]: She needed a fresh start that she did not need to be in that cesspool of a town. [SPEAKER_01]: I think you probably have like a small town mentality. [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is where I know this is where I found work.

36:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not gonna go somewhere else. [SPEAKER_01]: And here it's just gonna stay put. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I find that sometimes it's either, there's only two choices. [SPEAKER_01]: There's either you wanna get away from a small town or it's what you know and you don't wanna get away and you wanna stay where you're comfortable.

37:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, if there are another small town that's like an hour or two away. [SPEAKER_00]: so your daughter doesn't have to continue to go to school with the people that her mother victimized. [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows, maybe she wanted to stay because it was what was familiar. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's actually where I think kind adults and maybe some kids who were kind to her.

37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what I would like to have known. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if there's a way to let us know in the documentary is how people [SPEAKER_01]: receive or treat Lauren knowing that she wasn't part of it, but to your point, your guess about Owen, not her not condemning her mom, how do people feel about that and how does that translate into how they treat her?

37:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my opinion is that no one has, she was a, this is a part, like she is a victim. [SPEAKER_00]: She is a victim. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that we have a place to really judge victims or how they react to being a victim. [SPEAKER_00]: A double over victim. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

38:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the fine, oh, good. [SPEAKER_00]: I do, like, this is probably the thing that I see on, like, that bothers me the most. [SPEAKER_00]: Is people trying to act like Lauren knew or had something to do with it? [SPEAKER_00]: They're like the police are like, we checked. [SPEAKER_00]: It all came from Kendra's phone.

38:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, this poor, I just, even with this documentary, I just feel like this poor child just gets victimized over and over and over again. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think she knew. [SPEAKER_01]: I do think I had to keep reminding myself that, [SPEAKER_01]: she was 14 because I just couldn't understand why she didn't want nothing to do with her mother.

38:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That was my only thing, but she's young. [SPEAKER_01]: You know? [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I think the conclusion of this documentary is the Audacity of Kendra. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, it wasn't Kendra. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, but I think because of everything that happened, Lauren is planning to attend college to study criminology.

39:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe she can tell the police how they can better charge her mom for what she did. [SPEAKER_01]: One can only hope, but yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think ultimately, this is my issue with them turning out all these documentaries is that the subject matter is fascinating, the stories are fascinating, but [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think ultimately the production is always the best and there's always all these gaps that are left.

39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I do also appreciate the fact that it wasn't done in three episodes. [SPEAKER_01]: They decided they were just going to make it of one hour, thirty thing and let's just get it one and done in this. [SPEAKER_00]: It could have been an hour. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I literally had to stop and be like, when did they tell us that it was Kendra?

39:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Because for like 45 minutes. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just relaying the same thing, text messages, they did do any investigating, they didn't change anybody's number. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they did investigating, but they're like, Chloe did it. [SPEAKER_00]: That was the extent of their investigating.

40:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Look at what's this. [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't very riveted. [SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, it's like, there were some really, really bad text messages sent to kids. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it turned out to be one of the kids' mother. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not even worth an hour and a half. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

40:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a one hour date line episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, Kendra's excuse being like she was raped at 17 and she just got scared as Lauren was getting to those years and me and she was still 14, but it's like, you realized that you just perpetuated the fears that you allegedly were scared of by just getting her there quicker.

40:44 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't saying. [SPEAKER_00]: I just... Maybe this contradicts my whole like victim thing, but I do not doubt that what she is saying is true. [SPEAKER_00]: Being a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize others, and it's not an excuse either. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what do you remember what people would say?

41:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Heard people heard people or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that doesn't make them, that doesn't, doesn't negate the heart. [SPEAKER_01]: if she wanted to do something homeschooled girl tell her she can't go anywhere tell her she can't have a phone. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's safer than whatever this other thing was she got saying she was going through a lot.

41:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like again go through whatever you're going through your daughter did not have to be collateral damage on all of this so [SPEAKER_00]: And like while she was sending the text messages supposedly to break them up, she was simultaneously far too invested in their relationship. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, according to his mother, she would, she's like, she acted like the kids were gonna be together forever.

41:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And his mom had enough sense of mine to be like, you know, they're, you know, very young teenagers, like this is a cute little relationship, but you know, she was disturbed by Kendra's investment. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she was dating someone and I got scared that the same thing that happened her at 70.

42:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not really buying that. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not buying that. [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not making sense. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, she was also smiling. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just creepy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, I'm just bothered by the fact that this woman is free. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's my main concern.

42:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm glad that they had a good enough sense to make sure that she doesn't have contact with Lauren. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, any last words? [SPEAKER_01]: None. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: That was it, guys. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you enjoyed this. [SPEAKER_01]: If you can make any sense of Kendra, let me know.

42:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what your thoughts are because I have none. [SPEAKER_01]: This was just ridiculous and should never have even happened. [SPEAKER_01]: But thanks, eight for stopping by. [SPEAKER_01]: It's always a pleasure when you do. [SPEAKER_01]: No problem. [SPEAKER_00]: I started to think as we got started I'm like, Oh, I just get introduced as aid and like, Oh, everybody just knows who aid is.

43:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, What if you have new listeners who are like, I don't know who this girl is. [SPEAKER_01]: I think. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're just, you're just be a guest. [SPEAKER_01]: But what should try to say, guys, if I have any listeners that are listening, aid was my co-host for a long time.

43:22 [SPEAKER_01]: before she, oh, it's coming up on the year now. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, since you are left, but yeah, that's what 80 is. [SPEAKER_01]: She's my ex. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my ex. [SPEAKER_00]: All year of Tane doing a great job of doing this podcast solo and me having fun just dropping into a share thoughts.

43:41 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, yes, yes, it is. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, I appreciate it. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, guys. [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, stay tuned for other episodes. [UNKNOWN]: Bye.