Apple’s ‘Pro and Tell,’ Google’s Two New AI Models, OpenAI Eyes Google’s Custom Chips | Diet TBPN

0:01 How was your morning, Jordy?

0:02 It was great, but this morning is

0:04 all Mine about was even better because I got you.

0:07 I was getting a fantastic workout.

0:09 Oh, yeah?

0:10 You were at some computer event.

0:12 I was. I I went to the Apple event this morning. Pro and tell, very exciting. Speculation was all over the place. John Turnis shared a video of a...

0:24 An... A cutout, a spotlight of the Apple logo shining on a wall brightly. You can see this video teaser. What do you think he's teasing? Christian Reber times in. Apple Car. Obviously. They're just gonna drop the Apple Car on you midweek nowhere. On a Wednesday in a ten minute keynote. No. It was a touchscreen touchscreen MacBook Pro, and it was cool. It was... This was my first Apple event in person. Obviously, I've been watching keynotes since I was a young child. I remember watching, like, the Steve Jobs keynotes in college.

0:57 It was amazing. And seeing, like, those clips, we've watched a bunch of these on the show, and we've seen the evolution, the COVID era, the highly produced big keynotes. This is a smaller event. You know, they're they're they're doing a number of launches. They launched the iPad. But, man, John Turnis, the star power is incredible. I'm not joking. Like, he is so good on stage. He's incredible.

1:17 He's very nice to have a good one. What are you trying to try to hit the glass? No. I was hitting the the the chat button.

1:24 Oh, okay. I was like, well, I can't hear it. No. He's really, really good. So, I mean, the whole script was very tight.

1:31 Very quick recap on what they've launched so far. Like, fifteen seconds iPad mini, fifteen seconds on the MacBook Pro with the m six, and then straight into the touch screen. They play a little example video, which had a hilarious theme to it, which was if you give a mouse a cookie. They took the story of if you give a mouse a cookie and applied it. We we we should actually play the the full ad because Tim Cook shared it on X.

1:58 He said, we brought touch to the Mac. We brought touch to the Mac from the new iPad from the all new iPad mini

2:04 Kind of.

2:04 To the MacBook Pro. Let's play this.

2:06 Like a pro OLED. Yeah. A pro LED XDR. So it'll have more vivid colors. Brighter brightness, blacker blacks, razor sharp contrast.

2:25 Then you've got a totally portable reference monitor. So you'll need anti glare and reflection, burn and protection, and real time pixel correction. It'll look so real, you'll wanna reach out and touch it.

2:42 Boom. Mic drop. Touch it. You can swipe and drag and pinch. No.

2:48 They clearly listen to you. You were making fun. It's always just thinner, lighter, faster. Boom. You can't say that Apple

2:54 is touchable.

2:55 Touch screen. That's not thinner. That's not lighter. That's not faster. That's a different vector of new features.

3:01 Touchable Okay.

3:02 MacBook Pro yet. It is. No. I have no idea if this will be useful or I will want the touch screen version. I can't imagine a situation where I want that, and I would be very worried about fingerprints.

3:16 I'm already, like, constantly battling, smudges on my screen, and I don't really like using window Windex cleaner. I guess I should get the official Apple polishing cloth which is like...

3:27 Full employment for computer detailers which we've pitched

3:30 Yes.

3:31 A bunch of time No.

3:32 No. I agree.

3:32 As a great business Yeah. At least in San Francisco. You know, schedule different companies, go by the office, take the computer for ten minutes.

3:41 Actually haven't solved that properly. No.

3:43 Like, we should we should figure out... No. You tried to clean your computer and your hands were burned by like a We very toxic got something off of Amazon.... Really skimping on the

3:51 on the cleaning supplies, and I got chemical burns all the rants. No. We should, we should figure

3:57 out how My reaction to the launch is, like, why the heck not? You know? You should be able to touch the screen of your computer.

4:04 Yeah.

4:04 Why the heck not? Seems, you know, seems pretty cool. I don't I don't think I'll care one way or another when I when I upgrade my Mac next if it has a if it has a touchscreen or not. Yeah. I don't even know if

4:20 it's an option that you pick. The the actual bigger thing that's an update is the is the display, which if you've if you've watched an OLED TV, like, it is brighter. The blacks are darker. It's actually a nicer contrast ratio. And a lot of people have been upgrading to OLED TVs, and they're like, yeah, this is better.

4:39 And so bringing that to the MacBook Pro makes a lot of sense. It's been Yeah.

4:43 It's interesting because it... You know, the Mac... The the Pro line Yeah. You know, historically was for professionals. Still is.

4:51 But I don't think any of the, like, the most hardcore power users are like, yes.

4:55 Like

4:56 Touch me. Thank you for delivering the thing that I cared about. What did you learn about the hinge? Are we gonna be experiencing this?

5:02 Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I I think it is better.

5:05 Is that an error or a pro? Pro. Okay. Because mine's kinda similar. When I moved it around, it it it seemed not to do the springiness thing. You see how, like, when I do this, it, like, springs back and forth? It seemed not to do that. It

5:17 seems like they

5:17 improved the it seemed like they improved the...

5:19 Because if you have to hold it, reinforce it while you're touching it, it's gonna be a little rough.

5:23 Well, I think the default the default way you'll use the MacBook Pro touch screen will be like this. You put both hands, so you can scroll Instagram and TikTok right here.

5:31 And you're like dry... Like like you're driving.

5:34 Yeah. Like you're driving. Like a huge iPad. I don't know. But John Turner is very, very good on stage.

5:39 Whatever he's been doing practicing, it didn't... I think he has confidence monitor with maybe some script, but, like, it felt very memorized, like... And delivered perfectly. Like, they really take that seriously. The other interesting thing about the the actual keynote was that they didn't put the price up on the screen.

5:56 Typically, there's, like, a... Where you do all this, and it's a it's a phone, and it's a music player, it's a blah blah blah, and it has the best screen ever, and it's only $1.99 or or $9.99 or $2.09... $22,999. We're no longer in that era because of the memory crunch and the and the price of components going up. And so the price was not on screen.

6:19 You can actually see it on apple.com, something around $2,900 for the 14 inch. The 16 inch is gonna be $3,400 to start, which is on the pricier end.

6:33 But And the way you expect it was 60?

6:36 $6,000. 60.

6:40 Can get... They also have an own nothing and be happy option. You can lease it.

6:43 Yeah. You can lease it.

6:44 Thirty six months.

6:46 I mean, it's not that crazy. Yeah. I mean, a a lot of people are buying these for work. They're expensing them, and so there... There's a there's a way.

6:55 And then, I mean, at the price for performance, like, you're in the right realm. It's not that dramatic. We can talk more about the the strategy that's emerging with Mark Gurman. The interesting thing was that that that that initial, like, light shined on the wall. That was a teaser for the fact that the Apple logo now lights up on the back of the screen.

7:18 Yeah. I completely... I I hadn't really been thinking about the fact that that had gone away

7:23 Yeah.

7:23 Seemingly to save money. Yeah. Exactly. Now they're bringing it back.

7:27 And this And

7:28 it's crazy in hindsight because it's like, yeah, they probably saved a little bit of money Yep. But it's so... Such an iconic part of the Mac experience

7:35 Okay.

7:36 That was just gone.

7:36 You're pro. You're pro having

7:38 Pro bringing it back. Cool. Well, they brought it back. No utility.

7:41 So that might be the thing that gets you this I'm so want the touch screen. You don't care about the OLED, but the light up back is interesting to you. No. I mean, the the the applause from the audience at that moment was the biggest it was of of everything, even more than touch. Like, even more than anything else.

7:59 Like, that was what people were excited about.

8:02 Maybe maybe they're bringing it back because a lot of people are live streaming. Mhmm. Sometimes, you know, MacBooks are are

8:10 Oh, yeah. Can't

8:11 tell really getting any

8:13 I need to position it like this if I really wanna be nice to Apple comms. Here we go. Boom. Nailed it. No.

8:20 People are very excited about this. And, yes, my theory is that it probably costs, like, $2 per unit to do that. And back when they were selling MacBooks for a thousand dollars, that was, you know, a fifth of a percent of the total price and maybe, you know, half a percent of the total component cost or something. These these are very estimated numbers. But when the top line price goes up because of memory going up and because of chips going up in price, all of a sudden, like, the the technology that it costs to light up the Apple logo probably hasn't changed in price.

8:51 It's probably... Maybe even gotten cheaper. It might just be still $2. And so now they're like, well, most people are gonna be specking these at, $4. $2 relative to $4 is way less than $22 relative to a thousand dollars.

9:05 Feels like a guy that's like, yes, it's not necessary. Yes, it has no utility other than, like, sort of brand Yeah. And just sort of, like, enjoy... Like, enjoyment for the user. It looks nice.

9:16 Yeah. No. And that's

9:17 worth it.

9:17 It's still worth it. That's the premium Apple brand that they need to, like, stick with and stay with and stuff. So I thought that was that was a nice touch. What did Google launch?

9:27 Google has a couple new models. Sundar says excited to share Genie four. Today, our most realistic and interactive world model.

9:33 This is really cool.

9:33 Steer dynamic environments in real time, shaping events, camera angles, and actions. Generate native audio match the world from realistic background sounds to characters who can converse in real time. Simulate photorealistic scenes and real world physics, create more coherent multi step events through reasoning from Gemini, and they've started to roll it out as a research preview. Looks incredible. I think that the primary use case for world models for me personally so far is, you know, making me think that it's more likely that we're living in our own simulation.

10:07 Yeah. I don't know who's using these.

10:09 Well, right now it's mostly research previews, so researchers are using them. And the immediate the immediate thing is like, okay, it could be fun. It could just be something that you want to spend time in. So it's like a video game. It's a substitute for video games or even just a full video game that you wanna pay for or or subscribe to or upgrade your plan to be able to tinker in.

10:30 But the immediate case for content creators is set extensions, virtual backdrops. You could effectively composite yourself into this world, and your camera could be moving you around. You've seen those videos of people LARPing with Hicksfield. You've seen this? Where people would be like, look at look at me, and it's like them.

10:53 And it's like, this is my Lamborghini, and they've dynamically replaced the the Honda Civic with the Lamborghini. And then they're like, and I'm on my private jet, and it's actually just their back staircase or whatever. This allows you to do it in real time if it's this high quality because it can it can interpret where the camera position is and then dynamically generate the world. So even if you're... Even if I'm filming you and I have a virtual backdrop on you and I'm like, okay.

11:19 We're in... We're on the beach, and then we go outside, it can it can imagine what's outside and it says, okay. Now we're now we're on the boardwalk of the beach and it can continually recreate this. So there will be some interesting, like, real time applications as this Everyone rolls is probably familiar with the simulation hypothesis, proposes that what one experiences as the real world is actually a simulated reality, such as a computer simulation in which humans are constructs. Everyone's thinking we're in a simulation in a simulation now.

11:52 You had a different thesis, different hypothesis, the racing simulation hypothesis, which is that our world, what we know as Earth, what we know as the human experience, in fact, exists in a racing simulator run by a higher level organism that exists purely to propagate f one and the f one circuit and everything else that we do. Genie four isn't available yet because you've played with some of them before.

12:19 Yeah. I'd love the Genie three box. It was Yeah. Very

12:22 I I don't have access to Genie four yet. I think it's still on... You have to, like, apply to their, like, early access program.

12:27 Okay. I I'm I'm excited for that to to roll out and be able to play. Jordy, what what is the next Google?

12:33 They got another model. Multiple models this week. Sundar is back. He says, I did say we'd be releasing our models periodically, introducing Gemini four Carbon, their next Frontier model, which follows Argon's release just two weeks ago. Carbon shows the pace at which we're pushing the frontier, and it ranks number one on the recently updated v five of the artificial analysis intelligence index at 59.

12:56 And it also leads across cybersecurity evaluations scoring 88.2% on SCC bench pro for finding vulnerabilities and 54.8 on exploit gym. Yeah. So very excited to see the reaction here. Seems like a great launch. Elon says it's impressive. And, I think, again, they have to, at this point, have been learning from the sort of series of of, benchmark disappointments that they seemingly have had for

13:29 Yeah. Semi, mean, six shots. Right?

13:31 Yeah. Just about a about a a year straight where every single time it's amazing on benchmarks and then the the sort of lived experience that people have is less impressive.

13:41 Think Gemini three. I thought Gemini three had, like, a good flavor to it. Maybe it was a bit overly benchmaxed, but it felt like it wasn't too verbose. It felt like it sort of answered questions in, like, one page of text. And so I could, like, see it and see the answer and kind of parse it easy as opposed to getting, like, pages and pages and pages, but it was some LLMs do.

14:01 It could be a little bit much. I was confused by this because it feels like the the the hierarchy, like, with with, like, Luna, Terra, Sol, Astra, I kind of understand that, like, the moon is smaller than the Earth. The Earth is smaller than the sun. The sun is smaller than the celestial bodies. Same thing with Anthropic, where it's like a sonnet is shorter than an opus.

14:28 A mythos is bigger. I kind of understood that. This is interesting because they're going in maybe the opposite direction depending on how you rank them. So argon is the eighteenth atomic number, whereas carbon's number six. And so does that leave them open to do a a lithium, a high... A helium, a hydrogen model that's, like, bigger? Are they gonna go that direction? I like that they have a name You

14:54 think they're gonna do a helium model?

14:56 Yes. I I think the helium model could be the biggest model from DeepMind in years. It could change everything. It would be the... It would be, significantly bigger than their new carbon model.

15:21 Yeah. But it it does sort of beg the question. Yeah. Like, what is the what what is the taxonomy here? It's kinda cool that they left a lot of space between carbon and argon for sodium, magnesium.

15:35 Sodium. Sodium. Honestly

15:37 Neon, aluminum. I love salt. Silicon's in there. Phosphorus, sulfur.

15:41 I would

15:41 have liked if if if it's more...... Sulfur model.

15:43 I would have liked some more fear mongering. They could do plutonium Yeah. Fluorine.

15:46 Well, that's really deep. So in the... This is what I'm saying. In the deep mind taxonomy right now, plutonium would sound like a really scary model, but it would actually be much smaller than carbon because it goes from carbon's the biggest and best, then argon at eight... At the 18 atomic number is smaller.

16:04 And then you go way down to plutonium, and it's actually, like, the least effective, the least smart model in theory. I don't know.

16:12 They should do Gemini five nuke.

16:15 Nuke. Yeah. We... Oh, wait. Don't you have a button for that?

16:19 I thought we had a button for nuke.

16:20 No. I think we I think we removed.

16:21 I think it's too too too aggressive for the show. Oh, here we go. Tyler has the truth nuke. Gemini plutonium is coming in any minute now. No.

16:32 The truth nuke is good. Really slow still. The longest soundboard effect we have. But this this all feels like, okay. A year ago, people were talking about, like, the naming schemes at the labs don't make any sense. OpenAI was probably the worst offender with, like, four o, and then, like, you'd go to four five, which is a bigger model, but it was slower. And then there was, like, Omni versus Fastmo, and it was, like, too much. And everyone was like, I don't get it. And then and then it was, like, five four, five five, five six. And then eventually, OpenAI said, Okay.

17:08 We're going to use a human legible, not just purely numbers. We're going to go TERRA, LUNA, SOL, Astra. And that, I feel like, makes a lot more sense to people. It's just more intuitive. And so, I like that OpenAI has adopted that format. I like that Google has adopted that format. And I hope that the version numbers kind of melt away and you're just in the world of, like, okay, big model for this task, small model for that task, And and it's a little bit it's a little bit easier to just intuitively get a grasp of whatever model is capable of.

17:42 Anyways But... Amazing benchmarks. Good bet. Excited to see the reactions. Yeah.

17:46 And... And the ramp data. Yeah. In other news, OpenAI. OpenAI plans to buy Google's chips as part of its AI build so now we have TPUs.

17:57 Mhmm.

17:58 Last week, it was it was OpenAI models on GCP. Yeah. Feels like a a start of a new era?

18:06 Yeah. Sort of a new era. I don't know. I mean, yeah. I guess OpenAI was founded because they were like, Google's bad.

18:12 Right?

18:12 Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

18:13 Yeah. That's a good point. Now it's like, they're not that bad. But this is the same thing with, like, Anthropic and Elon. It's you know, very very diametrically opposed, you know, politically.

18:24 But... Yeah. And they

18:25 they got compute and we need compute. Yeah. So Yeah. Business above all. Business solves everything.

18:32 Let's give it up for business.

18:33 Let's give it up for business.

18:34 Business solves everything.

18:36 Dylan Patel says semi analysis clients had this already. Woah. Screenshot.

18:42 Little victory lap.

18:43 AI lab is largest leased. Cover more massive deals in the pipeline. AMD taking share question mark. OpenAI's quarter is one eight gigawatt multi phase commitment in Ohio with NVIDIA backstopping 4.25 gigawatts. It's the largest single leasing commitment we have ever seen.

18:57 Cool. In addition, we believe that OpenAI is discussing with NeoClouds for both GPU a, as a service and TPU as a service. We think there's a one gigawatt TPU commitment, and OpenAI is looking for sites. Yep. Anthropic leased 1.7 gigawatts this quarter, with notably 360 megawatts in Queensland, Australia.

19:17 Let's give it up for Compute Down Under. Signed on the September 16 with operations starting in the first quarter of twenty eight. The largest overseas leased by an AI lab this quarter. The 1.7 gigawatts includes one gigawatt backstop by Google, but also a large site where we aren't sure yet who will provide the credit support.

19:35 You think AI researchers are gonna be okay with doing inference in Australia? That's kind of controversial. Right? Because they're known for throwing another shrimp on the Barbie. That's rough.

19:45 You're gonna have to do a truth. It's like, no more throwing shrimp on the Barbie. Just fosters. Just enjoy your fosters.

19:51 Enjoy your fosters.

19:52 And and stick to infants and fosters. No more shrimp. Every lab is using every part of the animal. Like, it's the, you know, they're fully They're going whole hog. They're going whole hog.

20:03 They're using everything everything they possibly can. Every lab is using every chip and every data center and every hyperscaler and every neo cloud. They're using it all for all different things, and different chips will be better at different models and different part pieces of the inference stack, and like everything will be used. Very good for the... Like, if you've been in semis and and, you know, Neo Clouds and all this stuff, rising tide will lift all boats as everything becomes...

20:30 Like, was a moment where it was like, oh, if you made the wrong architectural decision, you would get smoked. That was the theory. And now it's like, oh, actually, these models, at least a piece of the models, can be used in niche areas for different things. And so even if even if one chip is better at something, faster, but less smarter smarter but slower, like like, there will be an optimal way to to get a model running on that. And with AI agents, it's pretty easy to port to different things.

20:58 I think we saw that from the AMD coverage we did with Lisa Su, where Anthropic Vibe coded their AMD implementation pretty quickly. So, good for anyone who has bet on oligopoly and silicon, rougher if you were like, this will not be a car like market, but still very, very early, still a lot of dependence on NVIDIA, obviously. So nothing too scary there, but just interesting that everything is getting used by everyone.

21:25 So Yeah.

21:26 That... That's kind of my update. Anyway, well, if you wanna get in the game, there's a 300 rack AI supercomputer powered by 9,600 NVIDIA 100 GPUs. It's on eBay. Can just buy it

21:38 on If

21:40 you were thinking about starting a Neo Cloud, getting in the token selling business, hit up your local banker, get a credit line for 60 mil, go on eBay, click it. Fair market value for this?

21:53 EBay up 16% over the last six months likely because people are realizing that this... It's a compute marketplace.

22:00 Apparently. Yeah. Fair market value for this would be closer to 50, maybe 55,000,000, but you could still

22:07 I love having this screenshot. It says in six carts.

22:11 In six carts? Like six people have added to cart. Two available. Wait. They have two available of these?

22:19 Wow. Yeah. Interesting. Pretty pretty solid depreciation too. This hardware originally sold, for, something like, what was what was this originally originally went for? Let me let me find it. 60,000,000. Now the original hardware was almost 300,000,000. So there is depreciation, but there's still some value there. Of course, there's...

22:45 The a 100 is a seven year old chip now, something like that. And so you're banging the table. You're you're you're hitting by? Are you bidding?

22:54 I got... I was getting excited.

22:55 Oh, you're just getting excited.

22:56 Okay. No. Very old chip, still worth a lot of money.

22:59 Yeah. Totally.

23:00 It's the price of one dinosaur.

23:01 Oh, yeah. Which one would you do? Jordy, which one are you going with?

23:05 Are you going Gus, the the T Rex? T Rex? Or are going these GPUs?

23:08 20... That's that's the 20... Think I'm still, to to my oldest dismay, I'm still going I'm going for the GPUs.

23:17 You're going for the GPUs?

23:18 Just because I think Malibu Inference Yeah. Would be Really good. Great name

23:22 Yep.

23:22 For a a Neo Cloud.

23:24 Yeah. And everyone's been making that claim. Oh, like, put the data centers in, like, luxury towns. And you're like, yeah, got one right here.

23:31 Yeah. Also, could Literally in my backyard.

23:33 Use up in the shape of a dinosaur

23:36 Yes.

23:36 So that you have a beautiful architecture in your foyer. You know, you of course need to add a lot of cooling because all of a sudden your entryway is the hot aisle. That'd be rough. But it would make a statement. People would come in, they know you mean business.

23:50 They know they know you do

23:52 That's right.

23:52 You do local compute. You're not paying API pricing, you know. You're saving dollars every...

23:57 Why on earth does Malaysia have so much compute, John? Can you take

24:03 a Nobody knows.

24:03 It's mystery. Nobody knows.

24:04 Nobody knows.

24:05 Nobody knows. It is a total mystery.

24:07 This was the first story we talked about on this show. The very first show. Wow. Very first show I opened up The Wall Street Journal, and and there was an article right on the cover about Malaysia being the new the new data center hub

24:21 because We gotta send you down there.

24:23 They are the Switzerland of AI. That was sort of the sort of the framing was that they can buy compute from The US and resell it in China. And so that was an incredible advantage. And they had a lot of power between the different locations there, and the the the government was sort of set up to allow a lot of compute build out. Pretty, pretty interesting.

24:46 They they have a lot. It's not that much compared to America. I mean, Malaysia is not the green bar here. They're not the red bar. The red bar is China.

24:55 I'm actually surprised that EU has more compute than Malaysia.

25:01 Okay. Yeah. Bad. Aren't you? No.

25:03 Because the EU is huge, and Malaysia is, like, a pretty small country.

25:06 I know. But... Yes. They they... Malaysia seems to be going so long.

25:10 Yeah. Also, Malaysia is interesting because it's sort of like the the AI industrial hub to Singapore. So Singapore is the global financial hub, the port city. So everything's coming in there. You get stuff delivered through Singapore, and then you set it up in Malaysia, just a hop, skip and a jump over like a small river or small, I don't know, small waterway to get to where you actually need to deliver the final product.

25:35 So interesting. But yes, I imagine that a lot of Chinese AI lab compute, if they're doing training, they're probably using like a Malaysian neo cloud that's racking NVIDIA chips, and they can because there aren't as many trade restrictions, I think. Something like that. Yeah. Anyway,

25:51 Instinct. Lucas. Oh, please. The grub... Grubber inator.

25:54 Lucas grubber.

25:55 Grubber inator.

25:56 Says Grubber inator. Instinct is currently raising at 30,000,000,000. A 100 500 to 2.5 to ten to thirty in sub one year. If you're still not inside the private market, this should be a good signal to pivot aggressively. Wealth creation is gonna be heavily skewed towards private investors over the coming decade.

26:16 Yeah. TBP. Yes. Yes.

26:20 There there is more risk and there is more reward, and so that's why venture capital firms diversify and Yeah. And LPs diversify across venture funds, but it is a...

26:30 Yeah. So people people are naturally crashing out over this. Not not even the take that's that's embedded in this post

26:38 Yeah.

26:38 But just just that trajectory. Yeah. It is insanely aggressive if it's true, but again, this business has been growing so rapidly. Yeah. And the interesting thing is like it's very hard to judge Instinct's growth relative to Muse simply because Instinct doesn't have an app.

26:54 So it'd be really fascinating to see like The App Store would they sit in the App Store rankings. Right? Yeah. Yeah. What is

27:01 what is Muse doing on App Store ratings right now? Because it was at the top of the App Store for a while.

27:07 Muse Right now, you have TikTok Pro.

27:09 Muse

27:09 Muse. Invented, of course.

27:11 Muse is being, like, promoted in the App Store. If you just go to the search button, Muse is right there. It's doing well. It has 380,000 ratings, almost all five stars, 4.9 average. So, it's number one in productivity, but not number one overall because TikTok Pro is

27:26 And Vinted, of course.

27:30 Yeah. Vinted. I was on Vinted.

27:32 I I was looking at some stuff. Picking up some

27:35 picking up some Rick Owens head to toe. It's coming. It's coming. Jordy said I couldn't be a lifestyle influencer, but I think if I pull up in the Rick Owens, the Supreme, the Bottega top hat, you're gonna be apologizing.

27:50 I didn't say I didn't say couldn't. I

27:52 just I just You literally said you literally said, you should lean into comedy. And I'm like... And and then and then my counterexample is just a bunch more comedy. Yeah. It's so unmarried.

28:01 A 100%. Anyway, you can now text your dot. Yeah. So there are a ton of these, AI agents that everyone sees.

28:07 Anyways. Anyways. So the other thing with Instinct is like so few people have real information around the business Yeah. That it's impossible to... Everyone can give a take Sure.

28:17 Right? Because the number has... The valuation has grown so quickly, so fast. Mhmm. But it's just really tough when you don't have the information, right? And so you're just... It's entirely... Investors are making a decision based on what they're seeing in the business. Everyone else is giving takes based on how they feel about the number going up really fast. Yeah.

28:36 And, yeah, it's hard it's hard to it's hard to see exactly, like, what... You can only imagine kind of the way that they're positioning the business, how they're... What Noah's vision is and all that kind of thing. Yeah.

28:48 It also highlights, like, when new capability comes online from a Frontier lab, it can be at the frontier of that new capability. But unless there is a commensurate marketing push, it's not guaranteed that it gets adoption because you only have so much screen real estate in the ChatGPT app, in the Cloud app. Anthropic has Duet now. I saw the announcement, but I haven't seen a lot of advertising around it. And so there's plenty of people that are like, oh, yeah.

29:19 I have Clog code in my terminal, but, like, I'm a Muse guy. Or, like, I use GrockBot in Slack, but then I use Codex for coding. And... Or I'm cursor over here and instinct in my personal life. There's so much effort that needs to go in, and so instinct is at least focused on, like, let's get this value prop in front of people.

29:37 And I think that's sort of, like, the value of, like, maybe it's oligopolistic, maybe it's a big market, maybe there is a winner take all. Like, all the investors are still, like, piecing that together, but they're just seeing, like, incredible growth. Everyone we've talked to has been, like, the charts are incredible. Like, every every month is just huge growth, even while being attacked by Mark Zuckerberg, being attacked by Dot and and Duet. Like, there's a whole bunch of other companies going after this.

29:59 I have to imagine Google is gonna do something soon. They've launched similar products in the past, and it's so in line with them. They already have your email. They have Google Maps that has all your reservations. They own... It's not Michelin. It's the Zagat. Is that it? You know that one?

30:15 Yeah. I don't know. Don't know.

30:16 But they bought they bought like a like a restaurant review

30:19 Yeah.

30:20 Like brand. And so they have a ton of advantages there.

30:23 Yeah. The crazy thing is compare instinct. Yeah. Instinct, if they're raising at 30,000,000,000 to where Cursor was when they were raising at 30, which like massive competition from the labs. Yep.

30:34 And some questions around how they would how... Yeah. How they would handle that that competition basically competing with their suppliers Yep. Right, in some ways. But I believe at the time, Cursor had like north of a billion dollars of revenue. Right?

30:47 They margins right?

30:48 Yeah. Their margins weren't great, but at least people were giving them like billions of dollars. Totally. Right?

30:52 And that's not happening.

30:53 And so with instinct, part of what's jarring is that you have the same level of competition, potentially even more. Right? Because it's like you have the major AI players. There's like have major AI players, then you also have saying

31:05 With with with Cursor, was like Cursor was the lead IDE, and then you had Windsurf coming from behind nipping at their heels. But you didn't really have a product that was a direct competitor from OpenAI or Anthropic or Google, really. In, like, the...

31:17 Yeah. It's Cloud Code and Codex.

31:19 But those were those were terminal agents. And and and they did disrupt.

31:22 I'm saying they're ultimately competing out over the same...

31:25 Totally. Totally. You know. But, like, in terms of, like, the actual product experience, like, you wanted to at least review some of the codes, still be in that hybrid Centaur model, it was really Cursor was far and away number one. And then Windsurf was kind of nipping at the heels.

31:39 But no, none of the big labs had direct competitor products. And then all of a sudden, it was like... But flipping it around, if you're looking at the Cursor example, you might say, Okay, yeah, they don't have the revenue, but they have the consumer adoption. And look at what happened with Cursor, Self felt crazy at 10 or 20 or whatever, but got the acquisition done. And you're looking at Amazon and Apple and saying, well, I see the money.

32:05 They... There's the money to buy this company at a valuation above where I'm investing at 30. And so it could happen if Apple or Amazon make a crazy move.

32:14 Yeah.

32:14 I don't know. Maybe Google too. But the price is getting high. Yeah. You want...

32:19 How would that work from an antitrust standpoint? Like, all these companies...

32:23 It should should 100% be allowed. It's the most competitive industry right now. It's like not a knife fight for the personal agents. Yeah. Like like, you're going up against the monopoly guy, Mark Zuckerberg.

32:33 Like, you're like, oh, wait. You're like Amazon. You're you're acquiring instinct to take a shot at OpenAI, Anthropic, and Meta. Like, go go to town with that, I would think. But Yeah. You just I can never predict antitrust. So, like, you might be right that, like, they might just say, no. You're big. You can't make a big acquisition. Yeah.

32:53 Period. Yeah. Like, it it it just... It it might be framed differently. But as a as a consumer, as an analyst of the industry, I see them as, like, this is the most competitive tech category we've had

33:05 in years.... Out an upstart doesn't actually change the competitive decade.

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33:14 We didn't... We haven't been doing a road to Halloween. No. We're not How would we? Big Halloween guys.

33:19 No. But we might. But I am I am I am kind of excited. You have

33:23 been taking your eye off the ball. Okay.

33:24 Yeah. I'm a... I am... I I think Friday's show might be fun.

33:28 Okay. I I

33:29 think we might have a good time.

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