Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Drama Trio Review (Ep. 168)

0:00 Hello and welcome back to the Tea and Soju podcast drama Trio Edition, where three friends chat Asian dramas and let you into that chatter. I'm your host, Liliana. I'm Jess and I'm Caitlin. And in today's episode, we will be reviewing the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. But before we get into the episode, some housekeeping.

0:23 If you like the podcast, please like, share and subscribe on the platform you listen on. That really helps the podcast reach other listeners. For more content, check out Patreon where you can find behind the scenes, first impressions, Zoom meetups, and more. Finally, if you'd like to chat to me or find a community, check out Discord, Instagram, and other socials.

0:44 The link is in the episode notes. So guys, it's been a little while since we've sat down to record. How have you been? I mean, we've just literally, literally chatted through, but how have you been? What have you been watching? What have you been doing, you know? Well, I've been very well and it's been an absolute blast to sit here for about an hour and already talk with you guys.

1:06 But I have been watching lately, Perfect Match, which is that C drama that I think came out last year or the year before. It's got a stats cast. Yeah, I think it's 2025. Perfect Match I think. I'm on episode 1314 around there and there's 32 episodes. 32 Is it less? I thought that there were 24 episodes because of the way, yeah, the way that this was going.

1:38 I was like, oh, there's probably 24 episodes. When I saw 32, I was like, Oh no, what the hell are they gonna do? So I'm at a point where I'm getting a little bit bored of the show. It I have news for you, it's 36 episode. O30 even worse than I thought. I'm a little bored and it's episode 13 ish around there. Have you gotten through the first couple's storyline? Yes, I have.

2:08 Yeah. See, to me that was the best story. And I will say my biggest problem with this drama was that it was not well distributed throughout the couples. So the first couple get a huge amount of the story, probably because they have the biggest names to kind of, you know. Yeah. Back them up. But then the rest of it is very uneven. Like some of the couples get like 3 episodes for their storyline and then some get like 5. I don't know.

2:45 I and also the the the next couple of romances just really weren't for me. Like yeah, I think the first couples the best. Something about it that's just so vanilla, and not that there's a inherently anything wrong with that, it's just not. The first couple was kind of angsty. Yeah, they're good.

3:06 Like I like the first couple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really like the first couple. Me too, and that's why the rest of it just seems so boring and flat. And Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm struggling with it a little bit. There's once. I hit that wall. I'm having decided to go back to it, and I don't know if that means I should drop it or I should just stick with it and finish it. But yeah, that's where I'm at with that. I do want to go back because I found out that they I finished the show, but they did a variety show together where they kind of went, you know, on I don't know, a little holiday, the cast together.

3:47 So I want to, like, watch that because I usually really enjoy the little variety shows that they do together. Big names. I it was, it was. And The thing is, the first couple is Liu Xiao and Wang Xing Yi Yu. And like the two of them together, They're they're good. They're good. They're good. Yeah.

4:09 Yeah. Unfortunately, it's not necessarily the rest of them just aren't as good. What about you, Caitlin? I've just been binging Corners, which I'm going to finish next week. I have like 15 episodes left the and I like it a lot. I knew I would. So it's like there's, there's kind of like a of course she likes it.

4:39 Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. Yeah, yeah, I but I like it. I like it for various reasons. One, the main couple I lot I thought they have or I think they have great chemistry. But also I like the fact there's like also other couples that are definitely second couples, but they have these sweet moments that like they're not as defined as the main couple, at least where I am at. Like one of them hasn't even started dating yet and they don't even know that they like each other yet. But it's very clear they're going to be the second couple. And then you have like the maid and the guard where they're kind of just there and it's very clear the guard likes her and she also likes him, but they

5:23 haven't really said anything. So but what I also love about the show is it is very much using its platform to talk about like the issues that women go through in this historical setting. So you already had, you obviously have like the main female lead dealing with being a coroner, having to pretend to be a man whenever she like meets people first and then dealing with some of these cases they get like one that we just got was like abuse, abusive husband type situation and what that his wife had to go through.

6:06 So I like that they have used their stories to tell some of the plight that the female people had to go through. I always like when dramas do that, but now I also have to have to start and binge Parallel World in like a month because I'm doing a solo review episode of that at the end of March. So you you're doing this to yourself.

6:32 You're I'm doing the. Deadline and everything. Yes, yes, I'm doing that to myself. And I also have like my niece's birthday at the end of the month, so I have to do it before. Of course, I picked the weekend to put this episode out. I it's the weekend of my niece's birthday party. So like I have to finish it and record it before I feel like leave for this birthday party. So that's the one with Bayou and Nini. The the adventure drama.

7:00 Yeah. So yeah, I did it to myself, but I have to binge that drama in the next month. That's. 38 episodes as. Well, I know, I know, I know. Yeah. So you can. Do it. Yeah, I know. Well, I'm binging Corners Diary. That's also 38 episodes. I've watched 16 episodes this week. There you go then, there you go. And I have been watching so I finished up How Dare You, which I really, really liked.

7:30 I am about to finish unveiled Jade Wind, which is finishing up tomorrow. Like so we're recording on a Saturday, finishes up Sunday, so finishes up tomorrow, which I'm I'm really enjoying it. I know it's not going to be a lot of people's cup of tea. And exactly because of the drama, Caitlin has just mentioned it because a lot of people keep comparing it to Coroner's Diary and keep putting, like, pitting the dramas against each other.

8:00 And I think because of that, a lot of people aren't enjoying it as much as they could. For me, like, I really like it because not only do we have the fact that the female lead is kind of like the brown, She's the stoic one. She's the one, like, fighting. She's the one, you know, doing all of this. And the male lead is kind of like the damsel in distress. They've reversed their roles completely, completely, and I find that very, very satisfying to watch. I.

8:35 Love the fact so bad. I love the. Fact. I know I. Love it. I think you will. I think you will like it as well. And I think, like, every single case is backed like to a woman's point of view. Like every single case is a struggle that a woman had to go through in those times. But it's told from the point of view of a woman who is sitting in a position of power because she's a county Princess.

9:04 So I find that, like, very, very interesting. So yeah, I love it. Seem like the male lead is Wang Shinghui. And he does beautiful yearning because this man is yearning for her like throughout the whole show. So. So yeah, I that those are the two that I'm like just sitting and watching. I'm about to finish them, but then we've got a good few ones coming up in March which I'm really, really excited for. So hopefully, I think March might be a. Really.

9:43 Good C drama months. If the rumours are true, it's going to be a really, really, really good C drama month because we've got Love Beyond the Grave possibly coming out, which is one with Dilraba and Chen Fiyu, which is like a Shiancha. She's playing this goddess of sorts. She looks stunning. So yeah, she ends up killing all of her husbands because she steals their senses and what? I'm very, very excited for that one. But also there's a Tianshu way and zangling her drama. So very excited about.

10:21 Oh, I did see the poster for that one and I was like yes. Yes, it's the one where everybody went crazy for because he was on a horse with like these very, very long feathers. So that's the drama. It used to be called Zuyu, but they've called it something else with the word jade in it eyes. That's the trend. I guess, yes, Jade seems to be the trend, but that is also supposed to come out in in March. So I'm very, very excited for for that one pursuit of Jade. That's what it's called.

11:00 Pursuit of Jade, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we shall see. We shall see, right. Should we talk about this drama? How did this not this drama, this movie? I'm so like not used to talking about movies. Now I'm going to be like falling in a drama constantly. How did this episode come about? Well, it came about because I kept saying that I haven't really watched a lot of movies. I don't even remember how this movie came up in the grand. It was a.

11:33 Conversation, yeah. You hadn't you hadn't seen a lot of movies. You said Asian movies. And we, it's very difficult for us to come here having watched 60 something episodes of a, of a drama and then talk about it. That's a lot of time for us. And so movies are much easier for us to cover and watch. It's just a couple of hours of our time. And so we said, OK, well, let's pick a movie to review and come together for it.

12:04 And Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came up because we, me and Caitlin have already seen it and we loved it. And then Kate Liliana just hadn't seen it yet. And this movie is iconic. Yeah, well, also Liliana said she wanted to see some more of the classic stuff. Or like, well, we can do that in movies, too.

12:23 Why don't we watch these? And yeah, you picked this one. Yeah. So I'm very excited. Do you know, to talk about it? I literally like, we're sitting to record. And I literally just finished it, you know, about an hour ago. So hopefully it'll be fresh. Fresh in my mind. Yeah. So the MDL description reads. Set in the Qing Dynasty during the 43rd year 1779 of the reign of the Qinlong Emperor, martial arts master Li MU Bai is about to retire and enter a life of meditation. Though he quietly longs to avenge the death of his master who was killed by Jade Fox, he gives his sword a fabled 400 year old weapon known as Green Destiny to his friend, fellow martial arts wizard and secret love. You sure Liane so that she may

13:16 deliver it to Sir too. Upon arrival in pecking you happens upon Jen a vivacious will fault politician's daughter. That night, a mysterious mask to a thief swipes Green Destiny Me with you in hot pursuit, resulting in the first of several martial arts action set pieces. During the film, Lee arrives in Beijing and eventually discovers that Jen is not only the masked teeth, but is also in cahoots with the evil Jade.

13:47 In spite of this, Lee sees great talent in Jen as a fighter and offers to school her in the finer points of martial arts and selflessness, an offer that Jen promptly rebukes. So that's like the MDL description. I feel like that tells you everything you kind of need to yes, this movie, it's a fairly straightforward, you know, movie. There has been quite a few adaptations of this. So there is Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon Sword and Destiny, which is the Chinese sequel from I Have Seen it. Have you seen it?

14:27 It's poop have. You guys, it is. It's horrible. It's horrible. Don't watch it. Don't do it Savage. It's from 2016. This one I have. I have not watched it. There is a Taiwanese adaptation from well, it's probably not because like the Taiwanese is from 1959. So it's earlier than, you know, this one and the Tiger in hunting, which is a Hong Kong adaptation from 1963. And then we have Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, the 2001 Taiwanese adaptation as well.

15:06 So there's like been a few spin offs and you know, so it was released on May 16th of 2000. This movie 26 years old. It is 26 years. Old. It is one hour 59 and it is an international Co production between Taiwan, Hong Kong, China and the United States. While directed by Taiwanese director Ang Lee and featuring a Chinese cast, it was supported by American companies like Sony Pictures Classics, making it a collaborative, multicultural effort rather than solely Chinese or America, Which I found very interesting because you don't really see that happening nowadays. Like I feel like that's not something you would see happening nowadays.

16:01 So something that I found very, very interesting is although this is well known to be a global hit, especially in the West, it received a very lukewarm response in China itself. And it's like for a couple of reasons, one of them being that there's they, like a lot of people said there was a cultural disconnect.

16:24 The film was viewed as a westernized version of Wushia cinema, catering more to foreign tastes than to traditional Chinese audiences. And the other one is I. I got this all like off of Google and stuff. But they said the other reason was perceived mediocrity. Many viewers found the pacing slow and the action while artistic and not as thrilling as typical Hong Kong action films.

16:52 Now I have, I have not watched many of the like the old style Hong Kong bushes, mainly because they're simply not available. But from what I've heard they were really, really good. They're just not really available for people to watch nowadays, you know, that are subbed and whatnot and then they've all. They also said this is a normal thing to put out there is that Hong Kong actors like Chao Yoon and Michelle Yeoh struggled with Mandarin, which felt unnatural to Native mainland speakers. Now, for foreign audiences, that's probably not going to be problematic in the slightest 'cause we probably aren't going to be able to pick up whether you know they're speaking well or not.

17:45 Yeah. So let's pause there for a second because I feel like that's very important to the success of the film in the West is that, you know, you've talked at length about dubbing and Chinese dramas especially. And like you said, all of the four main actors spoke Mandarin but with different accents. And the Western audience is not going to pick up on those accents Even what rewatching it for like the 5th or 6th time myself, I cannot distinguish the accent the accents on these actors.

18:15 Choi Young Fat had a canto accent, Michelle Yo had a Malaysian slash English accent, Zhang Zhiyi had a Beijing accent and then Chang Chen had a Taiwanese accent. And because of the difficulty some Chinese speaking markets had, the voices had trouble, trouble with the voices. Some Marcus actually had a dubbed version into standard Mandarin. And you know that I think considering the prevalence of dubbing in these Mandarin markets, that's not going to work for everybody.

18:49 It was a mark against the film. Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I will say to talk about director Ang Lee, who is so important to this film, to the vision of it. He's quoted as saying this film is a dream of China that probably never existed, which I thought was so poetic and beautiful of a thing to say.

19:10 And he's probably right on many different fronts for the West. That's almost like this is this is an idealized version of the wusia genre and the the fighting is very poetic. It's the most dance like and I'm sure in previous iterations of the wusha genre in the Hong Kong cinema, it's not. So dance like I will say the Hong Kong cinema was definitely more like in the dirt, dirty, like grab whatever you can find fighting style. So yeah, definitely this is drastically different from what you would see in the Hong Kong cinema at the time. So would you say, like I said, I haven't watched it, so I can't comment.

19:59 So would you say those are kind of like valid points? Yeah, yeah. I would say yeah, I would definitely say it was valid, yeah. Yeah. And they also said one of the things that really affected the box office in China was the fact that there was a 3 1/2 month delay due to production disputes, which allowed a lot of pirated copies to flood the market. And that like, really destroyed the box office potential that it had in China, which, you know, let's face it, 2000 pirate copies were everywhere, like.

20:41 Absolutely. I think that heard it for sure is that people were able to get their little grubby hands on a pirated copy and not pay to see it in theaters or wait for that cinematic experience, which I think this movie definitely benefits from seeing it on the big screen and seeing all of this action done in the largest format that it was created for.

21:02 I could tell you right now, if you're a filmmaker, there's no filmmaker that's making a movie of this caliber to be seen on an iPhone, to be seen on a small screen, right? This is something that's meant to be seen on a large format. Ang Lee is kind of a favorite in the West. He's done very different films from each other.

21:25 If you look at these films altogether, you'd never think they were directed by the same guy. Brokeback Mountain, Life of Pi, Sense and Sensibility with Kate Winslet. He basically discovered Kate Winslet. It's a pre Titanic Kate Winslet, the Hulk from 2003 with Eric Bana. And then there's Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

21:44 You would never think that this director has had a hand in all of these movies, let alone has really championed all of these different types of movies from period pieces to Lucia to very highly CGI movies like Life of Pi and Hulk, Brokeback Mountain. This like amazing gay love story that is so iconic and was also beloved by critics. This is a very interesting director to look at his career and I think that this is a beautiful film. But again, it what I would love to hear your thoughts, Liliana, on this movie and you know, kind of this ideal that it presents. OK.

22:30 Yeah. So let me finish the direction stuff and then I'll tell you guys what I thought about it. So the last thing they'll say is despite this, the film was still recognized as a high quality production, though it was ultimately seen as more of a global product rather than A1 local hit, which is a fair, you know, fair.

22:52 What's the word fair? Critique. Critique. Yes, that's the word I was looking for. So like Jess just mentioned, this was directed by Angley and he's directed a sentence Disability from 1995, Brokeback Mountain from 2005, and then Life of Pi from 2012. Screenwriters, we have Wank Hewling. Now this is a female screenwriter. She is Taiwanese and she's done things such as The Myth from 2005 and The Crossing from 2014.

23:25 We have James Seamus who is American and he's done things such as she's the 1 from 1996 and Hulk from 2003. And then we also have Sai Ku Zhong who is a Taiwanese and he's done Calamity of Snakes from 1982 and 1000. Good Nights which is ATV show from 2019. So 3 screenwriters in this. You mentioned the adaptations for this movie and how there were some earlier adaptations of this content. So the film is the an adaptation of the fourth novel in a pentology or five novel cycle known in China as the Crane Iron Pentology written by noted Busia novelist Du Yuang. The novels are Crane Frightens, Kunlun, Precious Sword, Golden Hairpin Swords, Force, Pearls Shine, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Iron Knight Silver

24:23 Base. Much of the story is not not about Lee Mubai or you you should Leanne. They are in fact secondary characters who only become important in the in. Later in the series, when a comic book adaptation of the 4th book, 4th book in the pentalogy was slated, illustrator Dan Seto rewatched the film to get inspiration for how to depict the fight scene.

24:43 So it's been an inspiration for later adaptations. And the fight choreographer for this movie is the same fight choreographer for The Matrix and all of those. Films, which is? Why, you know, the Matrix is so iconic in so many ways, but the action sequences in the Matrix are a high bar to clear. And they just brought in that same guy and he's a legend. He's amazing, which is probably not a reason why Chinese the Chinese market was all about it because the matrix was obviously not a RIP off but it heavily inspired by Lucia. So As for cost, we have Zhang Tsui who plays Jen. I just found it so odd that like it's just Jen. Apparently in Chinese Lowe's name, so the her lover in the movie, his name is Little Tiger

25:47 and then her name which is just Jen for us in the West is Gorgeous Dragon in Chinese. OK, OK, that makes sense. We also have Michelle, Yo and a Troy, in fact. So that's like your main cast, all you know. First martial arts movie in his entire career was this movie Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and they had to give him CGI renderings of him as a bald man for him to sign up and decide to shave his head because it was such a big deal.

26:18 It it takes look, not every man can pull off the the Ching dynasty catch, let's put it that way. Absolutely not every man can pull it off. And I'm honestly a little bit surprised that it does make it because like Qing dynasties, like the styling of it doesn't normally appeal to a lot of people because it is like that half shaved hedge. So it does take a certain type of actor to kind of go in and you know.

26:54 Yep. It do it do that. So what did I think about this this movie? I liked it. I liked it. I will say it does actually hold up for a movie that is 26 years old. It doesn't look as bad as I thought and prepared myself for. I thought that it looked pretty good. No, honestly, because like when you think about old hurts. From someone who, like, appreciates so many different eras of film.

27:28 You thought the year 2000 was going to sink the battleship? And I'm like. I didn't think, I didn't think it was going to sink the battleship. But look, we're in 2026. Everything that is on screen or a lot of the stuff. Only 26 years old. In my mind it's only 26 years old and you're like, Oh my God, it's 26 years old. And that it's hard for me to to sit here and not have a reaction.

27:55 But please continue. Don't watch I don't really watch a lot of like older movies. I don't really watch a lot of like old TV shows. It's just not something I gravitate towards. So I honestly thought this was going to be lower quality than it was, like in terms of what it looked like because you just expect it, like you don't expect the CGI or whatever they use or the effects or anything like that. You expect it to be of its time.

28:28 But actually it's kind of like the same thing that happened when we when I watched Scarlet Hart, I thought, you know, it was going to be not great. And then actually I watched it and I thought the quality still held up. So I really liked that aspect of it. The story itself is so simple. It's like it's, there's really not a lot to this movie when you really scratch the surface.

28:56 I mean, it's a sword that gets stolen and they're trying to get the sword back. And I know there's a lot more to it, but you know, on the surface that's what it is. Now, the fight scenes, there was a lot of like grunting and a lot of like, you know, I don't know how to explain it. A lot of noises, which I've heard is common for like, you know, that style of fight scenes, they were beautifully choreographed. Though you like Jess said, they do feel more like the characters are dancing with each other rather than fighting with each other, which is a very different style to what we watch today in Wushia.

29:40 I would say. I don't think like there's there was barely any blood. There was no, I was like, what? Scratch across an arm? And that was it. And that is definitely not what we watch in Chinese dramas nowadays. I think it's very, very different in that aspect, but like I said, I enjoyed watching the choreography of it because it did feel more like a dance rather than, you know, a fight scene in what we come to expect of a fight scene nowadays. But I liked it.

30:19 I liked the movie overall. Is it like my favorite thing out there? I don't think so. Mainly I think it's because story wise, I don't think the story is as compelling to me because I don't feel like there's a lot of story there. But I liked the movie overall. Jess is like dying. Caitlin, why don't you go Caitlin? I'm kind of like, I mean, I'm kind of like just I'm very biased with this movie because I've seen it over 10 times, at least 10 times.

30:53 I mean, I own the soundtrack. I love the OST of this. I've I've been listening it for 20 something years. I have the album. I love it. So I I'm probably very biased against this movie. I will agree, Liliana, the story is very simple, but I think that's kind of why I liked it because it's very easy to follow. It's a low bar introduction into this type of story. And then you obviously see some of the greats like Michelle Yao and like a lot of the cast is just like very, very famous, important to the history of Wusha like movies. And Hong Kong cinema.

31:41 Yeah, and Hong Kong cinema too, like they're yeah. So I'm probably like very biased, but I I loved it. But I also have not seen this movie in multiple years. This was the first time I've seen it in a couple years. So it was great for me. It was very nostalgic to re watch this movie because I hadn't seen it in a while.

32:03 But I also like completely forgot that until I watched this movie that Michelle Yell and Zongzi Yi did Memoirs of a Geisha together correct? And I'm like Oh my God how did I not remember that they did this movie before Memoirs of a Geisha? Oh. Yes. So yeah. And so I, I thoroughly enjoyed rewatching this.

32:25 I also forgot that Chong Chen was the male the second male lead in this. I never forgot for a second, but yes. Yeah, who? Is like we have this deep diet for loving destiny, is that right? Yeah, yeah, Loving Destiny. And I said it in that episode, I'd say again, he is one of my favorite actors due to this movie.

32:49 And then Love and Destiny, and then he has another Taiwanese movie that I love all the time. But anyway, I'm extremely biased against this movie and I love everything about it, especially the music. I think my biggest favorite thing about this is the soundtrack. I'm very partial to the soundtrack of this of this movie. I guess it's my turn.

33:12 So I have had this movie in my life since maybe my college days. I did not grow up watching this movie, but I did find it early 20s and I really liked it at first, but it was a little bit confounding to me. I did not at first think that it was a simple movie at all. I thought it had a lot of moving parts to it and it was a little bit difficult to wrap my head around it.

33:36 And the more that I watch it, the more that I love it. I think this movie is still just as potent as the year that it came out in 2000, and I obviously think it's a lot simpler now. And I think maybe the problem with thinking that it's really simple is because we're so used to watching really large scale seed dramas that have a lot of episodes, a lot of meat on the bone.

34:03 And this is not that at all. This is very, very condensed and it is a small part of a larger, huge epic. And to kind of take a magnifying glass of this one thing might feel oversimplistic, I think. And it is very beautiful. And that's the Ang Lee of it. It is not the case that Lucias look so good and are so romantic and make China look like this destination. And so it romanticizes everything about China. And maybe the Chinese like saw through that and they were like, this is not the true like warriors way. Basically, the fact that there's so much romance in it and so much talking about class and talking about a woman's place in this society and what things are, what your outlook is, how you how much you have to give up

35:06 of yourself and how much freedom is lost. That I think is not the typical Lucia themes that are explored in these types of stories. That is the angly of it. That is the Western side coming out of this movie. And I thought it was very interesting that you love the score so much, Caitlin, because this movie was highly decorated.

35:31 10 Oscar nominations. It won four of them. The score is the one one of the things that won the Oscar for best original score. Dun Tan is the composer for this score. He was given two weeks to write this score before they recorded with a full orchestra in Shanghai. And so a lot of his interviews are like, I, I really, this is not a lot of time to have written this score. He won best original score over Gladiator. That's Hans Zimmer's score.

36:04 He won over Chocolate, which is a Rachel Portman score, and he won over The Patriot, which is a John Williams score. These are big heavy hitters in the world of movie music. And he won. His score won. This movie is beautiful, like we've said, and it won best cinematography at the Oscars. It won over Gladiator.

36:26 It won over O Brother, Where Art Thou, and it won over The Patriot. All beautiful, stunning films. And I don't think we've mentioned the art direction, but it won best art direction, set direction, Sorry, set decoration over Gladiator and How the Grinch Stole Christmas, which I find fascinating. Then it won over How the Grinch Stole Christmas, which if you look at the art direction and set decoration in that movie like that is a feat in and of itself to make a Doctor Seuss book look like that on screen.

36:56 And of course it won best foreign language film. It missed out on the nominations for. Not missed out on the nominations. It just didn't win in those categories for like best director, best best picture. But I thought that the four that it won for were very interesting. And I totally agree for best cinematography and best original score. That is a feat.

37:17 Those categories were very stacked, I would say. We also think is like, I think one of the reasons why I like the music so much is because it's memorable. Like the opening cello in that like I can literally be walking down a like a mall hallway and I hear that and be like, this is definitely crouching tiger hidden dragon like that opening score, like cello score. I think the other thing is one of my one of the most iconic cello players of all time.

37:43 It's yo-yo Ma is in this score. yo-yo Ma, which is I I grew up playing cello. I like played cello for like 2015 years. What I didn't know your mom is like 1 scene. Let's just. Drop that. I swear to God, every time the drama trio record together, Caitlin will drop like this little something about herself. And I'm like, how did we not know this about you? What?

38:08 Yes, I started playing cello and piano when I was in the third grade and I played up until high school. So wow. Yeah. But the fact that yo-yo Ma is like his cello playing throughout this score is very noticeable. And like, they, they. And I think that that's what intrigued me about it was because you don't usually have like a solo cello prominent in a score at all.

38:42 So to have him featured throughout the soundtrack and have a cello be the focal point of a lot of the more memorable parts of the score was has always been why it's one of my favorite scores of a movie ever. Because I do have that cello playing background and also just you can hear the cello. Very much. You have that appreciation, you have that extra, you know, ear for it in the special features I watched the making of because of course I did, and I have having this usual. Features at some point, yes.

39:18 Perks of having the DVD of this movie, but the quote that I remember hearing is that Yo-yo Ma is sawing away on a $3,000,000 cello, which of course is going to make this score even better than it is on paper. I really adore this movie and there's so much that sticks out of my mind. It's very it's just a feast for the eyes to me, like the tiptoeing on the the surface of the water and some of those fight scenes.

39:49 It's not as visceral as other Usya fight scenes and it's because they didn't really go with the Shaolin Kung Fu style which is. Not this dance type of martial arts at all. They didn't go with that style for this choreography. I think that Sangzi and Michelle Yeoh have dance backgrounds and this was very early in Sangzi's career. Super early.

40:21 I'm talking like her second role ever and she freaking this. This launched her career. It really did. It launched her from obscurity. People have never really seen her face before and she nailed this role. She had such soulful eyes in this and she really brought so much to the role, to her character, to the dance like choreography that they gave. Everyone was doing their own stunts for the large majority of this movie.

40:56 Every all of these face actors basically are doing their own stunts and action scenes. You see their faces in a lot of these shots and that's special. That's really special in these films, special in this like Lucia tradition to have that also carry over into this movie. And I thought it was great.

41:21 Every everyone brought their a game and they were rewarded by this kind of living on and being so important. This is the only Lucia film that has ever been nominated for Oscars. Like, ever. So. Yeah, it doesn't. Like, it doesn't shock me because like you said, it is, you know, very beautiful to look at.

41:42 Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a fusion. You can tell it's not just one thing and just not, you know, it's not just a Western production, It's not just an Asian production. Like, it's definitely a fusion of cultures, I would say. But yeah, using like a Chinese background and like Westernizing it a bit.

42:05 And I like I said, I liked it. I thought it was very, very beautiful to look at. That was probably my favorite thing about the whole show was the direction of it and the beauty of it. And I think the fight scenes almost to me, it almost like reminded me more of like Shansha fight scenes rather than straight up or Shia fight scenes because they're like softer and, you know, more flowy.

42:37 And like I said, any blood, which was shocking to me that nobody was like coughing up blood left, right and center, which is a very typical thing in Wushia and you know, dramas in in general. They're just taking blades to the forehead and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically, basically. So one last thing, one.

43:03 Last thing. Go for. It the budget of this movie which shocked me. It cost $15 million to make in 1999, which adjusted for inflation, it was about $30 million to make. If this was made today, that is a budget of nothing. Yeah, that's so cheap. That's a budget of nothing. So cheap. Really cheap to make.

43:27 That's so cheap, right? Let's rate this and then we can talk about some spoilers. Oh, I will say one last thing that just popped into my head that isn't a spoiler. I was not expect. Well, I should have been expecting it because I feel like that's the Western influence. I was not expecting to see like naked people and whatnot in this movie. That was not going to come with me. And then it happened and I was like, oh, expecting this. So yeah, that was and also the first time that I quit to play on this, it was a dubbed version. And I was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Give me like my where's my, you know, original sound option on. So luckily I was able to like switch it, you know, very quick because honestly, for the like,

44:24 I had to Google it. I had to, I had to Google it and ask Google, is this originally in Mandarin or is it dubbed? Like what do I need to? Because I thought, oh, maybe that's just how the movie is. But no, luckily, like I was able to change it because I was like, this doesn't match what they're saying. So I don't think this is supposed to be in English. So hopefully you know.

44:49 So for ratings, one teacup, it was something I watched. It wasn't good, but something made me finish and that's A1 to a 5.5 MDL 2 teacups the OK ones Dramas I don't really recommend but they were an OK background watch. 6 to A7 on MDL 3 teacups the enjoyable ones. Good dramas. They're enjoyable and I would recommend to people who enjoy this genre. And that's a 7.5 to an 8 on MDL 4 teacups the loved ones. These are dramas that I really loved. There might be a couple of problems with it, but overall a really enjoyable drama that I would recommend to a wider audience.

45:24 And 8.5 to a 9.5 on MDL, TDL and then five teacups. the Rose Glass no faults dramas. This rating is reserved for those dramas that you love so much that you are willing to ignore any problems they may have. And that's your 10 on MDL. So for me, I would say this is like a high 3 teacup. I wouldn't really put it at A4 teacup because I don't think I loved it.

45:48 I really enjoyed it, but I don't think I loved it. So I think I'm going to go with a three teacup. What about you, Jess? Oh it's 5 fine for me. Maybe the first time I watched it it was a like a high 3 and I really gravitated toward the cinematography aspect and wasn't really sold on the plot of it. But I think this is amazing.

46:14 It's grown in my estimations as the years have gone on and it's a 5 teacup for me. I. I I really wonder if I had watched this years and years ago. The Thor, I had watched anything from China. Like it's a redundant question because it didn't happen, but I do. It does make me wonder like how I would feel about it and how I would view Ditch if I had watched it, you know, years and years ago, before I had watched anything from China or from Asia in general. I'll tell you what, I I went zip lining once in Alaska when I was a teenager.

46:54 And you know how there's all these videos of people ziplining and they're doing really cool things and they look like they're running in slow motion and they're doing all of these cool little clever things, you know, but just for the camera, I tried to do that when I was ziplining and I look like I'm dying. I thought that was one of the most difficult things ever was to try and do one of those cutesy things. And this was before I really, things were going viral and that gave me a deeper appreciation of what these people are doing on these cables.

47:27 And doing all of this wire work is not easy. It is quite difficult to do. And when I was watching the special features, I, I was surprised at this. They were like, so there's basically five guys that are basically pulling you up and down on these cables. And it's a strange dance that you have to do with these guys that are, you know, watching what you're doing and know what the choreo is. But like, it's all of these things taken together in tandem that make this special.

47:58 And I was like, OK, on top of the fact that they're tied up and on these cables, all of their weight is like suspended and they have to do these elaborate moves. Then there's five guys that are just like watching to see when they need to pull you up and down. I was like that's I'm sweating already thinking of that sort of thing and to get one clean take let alone multiple like.

48:22 Just. Astounds me. Anyway, all that to say, I think I have a deeper appreciation for what they're doing now than when I first watched it, because I guess you kind of assume that it's a little easier. They make it look easy. Right, They do, they do, but it's definitely not I mean, there's there's a reason.

48:39 There's a reason why by Lou has gone yeah, I'm not going to be doing any more dramas with heavy fight scene loads because it's like it takes my body far too long to recuperate now that I'm like in my 30s rather than my 20s. So there's the reason why these actors get to a certain point and they're like, it's not as easy to do these scenes as it was because I mean, like you said, you're on wires.

49:05 You have to be. Also, if you're in period costumes, those costumes are freaking heavy. Like you're in period costume, you're not in the easiest of cloaks to manoeuvre around, so you know it. Well, you also have these actors too. These actors too like they are well known when it comes to the action scenes in Hong Kong cinema.

49:31 Before the wires and before any safety regulations were in place. Like I mean Michelle Yell has talked countless times how she was like on the top of a bus and like almost fell off multiple times. And like the scene they use in the movie was her literally trying not to fall off and it actually wasn't in the script.

49:52 Like and same with the the male lead. He also is very well known for his action scenes in the 80s and 90s Hong Kong films. So it has to be interesting for them to do this type of movie in the 2000s compared to what they were doing in the 80s and 90s, you know? Yeah, and. Maybe that's a factor in why the Chinese audience didn't vibe with it, is that maybe it looks a little safe to them. Yeah, maybe a little too clean.

50:25 Yeah, yeah. Looks a little safe. What about you, Caitlin? What do you I? Also give it a five. I'm very five. I thought it. Might be. I thought it might be. Yeah, it's a five. Were there flaws? Probably. I didn't notice them. That's like, that's what your five teacups are anyways. They're the ones that like, yeah, is there problem? Yes.

50:52 Do I care? No. I. Have to say, the fact that this film is filmed on location in so much of it and the desert in these valleys in these gorgeous mountainous regions of China really makes me appreciate it more because we're living in an era where nothing is filmed on location, where it's really rare to get these actual actors are in this actual location.

51:16 And, you know, we had to stop filming because it was constantly raining in the desert. Like that sort of stuff. Really makes me think they put in the work, they put in the effort to make it look real. But nothing, none of this is blue screen, right? You know, none of this is green screen. None of this is faked for us. The only thing that they use CGI for was to remove the wires. I think that's special.

51:36 That's really rare in today's day and age. You know, that's part of why maybe the Dune series is so, so well loved is because they're putting in the work, they're putting in the effort, they're really in the desert and and doing all of this crazy stuff so. I like Shogun for example or. Shogun, same thing where you're like, well, they use CGI in certain areas to make it look better, but like, they're there, you know?

52:02 Yeah, these places are tangible. They're real. There's something cool about seeing all the desert dust and sand on these people and seeing them sweat from exertion. And action movies just don't look like that or feel like that anymore. Yeah. I think also this movie, at least I know for me, because when I first watched this movie, what, how old was I?

52:24 I was in high school. I was, I was definitely in high school. I think maybe even 8th grade, I knew about China like I knew about Asia. I had learned about Asia, whatever. But I think one of the things I remember when I first watched this movie, or at least the first couple times, I didn't realize, like I knew how big China was.

52:45 Obviously, I didn't realize that there was like all these different landscapes in China. Like I didn't know there was a desert in China at all. I assume they like went to Egypt or something and filmed it there. And then I realized, no, they were literally in China, in a desert that's in China. So I think that's the other thing that was interesting. I think this introduced a lot of people who had never been to China, had never really seen a Chinese movie, anything like that.

53:18 This movie was kind of like an introduction to what China cinema and China could offer when it comes to entertainment. Because this was one of my first introductions to that world because I had not started watching Asian dramas or listening to K Pop at the time that I watched this movie. Yeah, I think that's a, you know, and also people were always going to press play on a movie rather than a show.

53:49 So like you said, because it was so widely available, it must have been, you know, it was easy access because you could go to the movies and watch it. And that's that in of itself because a lot of movies and I'll just go straight onto streaming platforms anyways. So I feel like that in of itself is quite, you know. Well, I think the other thing.

54:13 Is the fact that it was nominated for Oscars and won some of the Oscars, like a lot of people probably had never seen this and they're like OK, this thing just won four Oscars. It has to be good because I think even at the time, I know they do this now, but I think they even do this back then where it's like if the movie is nominated, they re release it into theaters so people can go and watch it if they want to in theaters. And I think that's what they did with this one too. But I think it caused the fact that this was nominated and even 1.

54:48 I think this caused a lot more people to go and watch it too to. Go watch it Yeah, yeah, right. Let's I mean, it's a 26 year old movie guys, but. My favorite thing lately was someone was like, no spoilers for Wuthering Heights. I'm like, that movie's That book is over 100 years old. It's so. Old. What are you talking about?

55:09 No spoilers, Yeah. I'll give a spoiler wedding anyways, we are going to talk about the spoilers from now on. So if you haven't watched the movie and you don't want to be spoiled, then go watch it. But again, it is a 26 year old movie. I, I hadn't watched it, so I can't, you know, so, so on the other side of spoilers, where do you guys want to start with the spoiler talk where, where you're gravitating towards? We can start at the beginning, I guess, because Lee Mubai shows up to Michelle Yo, and already there's sexual tension, already there's something, there's something unsaid between these two and he's talking about he was up in the mountains meditating and he's going to give his sword away. That's the whole reason why he's

56:00 come down from the mountain and he's seeing her. He's like, please deliver this sword to our mutual ally, this friend that we've had friendly in the martial art to the martial arts world. He's hanging up his martial arts warrior ways and he quit training to say he's basically in the middle of his meditation, hit a wall of despair instead of blissful enlightenment. Something is holding him back and I love all of this. That's unsaid here.

56:27 They kind of have to spell it out a little later in a scene with their patron friend like this Lord Tear or something like I can't remember. I think they called him yes. So sorta is like part of my intrusion, but like, why aren't you guys together? And that is purely for the Western audience because if I was watching this in a sea drama, you would not need that character saying why aren't you guys together? You guys are wasting your time not being together. You would just inherently pick up what they're putting down because, you know, there's so much crackling energy between them.

57:04 And the way that Michelle Yo is looking at toe young fat, you're like, Oh my God, like, what the hell is wrong with these two? What's going on? And you find that it's basically the sense of propriety that's dictating their relationship. She's basically a widow. She was the fiance to his best friend, another martial artist who died tragically early and they never got married. It doesn't matter, she's still considered a widow and you cannot marry your best friend's girl. Basically this widow and that has plagued their relationship for all the time that they have known each other and they've grown to to love each other.

57:45 And it's just too damn bad because you can't be together. They don't have the freedom to be together. And I love that. I love that angst in this. Movie, I did appreciate that about the movie itself because I like, I like a little bit of angst. So I, I, I loved what I was picking up, what they were giving, so to speak, and you could you could feel it through the screen like that chemistry was really good with each other.

58:11 Even if you really think about it, they really didn't have a lot of screen time together. They really didn't. So for them to give you that connection pretty much straight away from scene one, I thought that was noteworthy as well. Yeah, and the lore behind this 400 year old sword, the Green Destiny, and how they're constantly like, it is such a beautiful, well made, gorgeous sword.

58:39 But you know, it doesn't look so nice when it's covered in blood. They're constantly hyping up this sword and how it's mystical, magical. Something about it is, you know, enticing, but also so, so dangerous. And I love that. I love when they hype something up. You know, Michelle gets introduced or Michelle Yo gets introduced to Jen, the character played by Zhang Zee, and she's engaged.

59:06 She's a young maiden from a wealthy aristocratic household. It is the governor's daughter. And I love when you see this character 'cause there's like a clash of Titans almost immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, you have this older, more experienced martial artist who is obviously not wearing any of the finery, any of the beautiful silk brocades that the character Jen is wearing.

59:35 She's all done up in the Qing Dynasty finery. And the the Jen character is so fascinated by Michelle's character. Yeah, she's completely enamored by the martial arts world. And she asked if Michelle Yo is married. And Michelle Yo's like, coyly says, well, what do you think? Do you think I'm married?

59:56 And she says you couldn't roam around free if you were. Yeah, and that just hits. That just hits because it is so true and it gives you a picture of like women in that time and age. And I think this isn't like specific to China. It's like worldwide general, yes, yes. So I think that's a really, really smart thing to do because it would resonate with or like women in general, whether you're in the West and Asia, whatever Europe, you would be able to understand whether they were coming from that in that time and day.

1:00:35 You were part of your husband. So if your husband didn't allow you to, you know, do something, then you couldn't do it. And The thing is also is that you were seen almost as like property at that time. And it's very, very telling that one of the very first questions she does ask her is, are you married? Like it's a very telling question that they choose to she's.

1:01:02 Looking for her status she's looking for, you know, trying to gauge that for. Me quickly go back to what Jess said about the sword too. I think the also the thing that's interesting when they're like hyping up the sword, knowing that the man who's been holding the sword for 20-30, forty years. Like I think the also when they hype up the sword, they also are kind of hyping him up because there's like these legends about the sword.

1:01:31 Obviously the legends probably extend to the person who's been using it for 40 something years. So that also kind of gives like a legendary mysteriousness behind his character because they don't really say like what happened with this sword. They just say like, Oh my God, this is a famous sword. And thus the guy who's been using it for so long is also pretty famous. Well, they even have a line later on where they kind of say the sword is only as special as the person wielding it because. The sword inherently doesn't do anything. Can make a.

1:02:11 It is just a sword at the end of the day. It might be very well built and very well, you know, made, but at the end of the day, it's the person wielding it and that person's skill that kind of directs the sword. So I think that, you know, wherever, whenever they were talking about the sword itself, I feel like they were more like you were saying, bigging up, you know, lean by rather than the sword itself. Right.

1:02:39 Yeah, yeah. Going back to those two, Michelle and Zhangzi, they they're shackled in different ways, which I found really fascinating on this watch, was that, you know, Zhangzi's character, Jen is about to be shackled in marriage and propriety. She's obviously already shackled in this sense of propriety.

1:03:01 And Michelle Yeoh's character is shackled by the martial arts code of ethics, right? They are bound by this code of ethics. She even mentions a few of the strictures of this code as she's explaining a little bit about the martial arts world to Jen and showing her the sword. She says like, you know, righteousness, benevolence, courage, integrity, honor over personal gain or authority.

1:03:25 She's gay. And she's touching on all of these little aspects that make their world a little more lawful, right? You know, if everyone abides by these rules and it's it, it might be fun, but we're all respectful of each other. And what Jen does is she flouts all of these, all of these themes and codes that they abide by. She's flying in the face of all of that, right? She's disrespectful to everybody. She does not honor their code of, of ethics. She's running around with the sword, being arrogant and stealing it.

1:04:03 She's she's a thief. She's a criminal. So it's very interesting to see how this plays out and how they're fundamentally at odds with each other. And Jen does not want to learn the right way. I kind of didn't like her character very much. I think she's an unlikable character. And I get, I get where she's coming from because I think I, I didn't like her character, but I also found her very intriguing and interesting because what you see is she's so restricted in her life that she lives, you know, normally without the mask where she's, you know, this daughter of an important person.

1:04:47 And she's, you know, going to have to get married against her will because she doesn't want, because then you later do find out that she's already found the person that she does love and she wants to be with. And you know, I feel like she has to show so much restraint in her daily life and she has to be follow so many rules already as a woman in that day and time that when she does pick up the sword and she does Don that mask or whatever, then she doesn't want to be shackled by any rules. And she just does want to do whatever the heck she wants to do.

1:05:28 And if that may be stealing the sword and keeping it and then, you know, flaunting her skills, so be it. So, yeah. So although I find her character unlikable, I also find her interesting, which is a very MM hmm, you know, strange place to be at. But it does say something about a character when you don't necessarily like her or him or you.

1:05:54 Can't take your eyes off of them. They're so alluring and their choices are so wrong. Jen is a rebellious teenager. Right. You know, at the end of the day, and she even says on the first she stole this sword twice, by the way, which I thought she only stole it once in my memory, but she stole it twice.

1:06:11 The sword when she stealed it the first time, she says that was just for fun. You know, it's a forbidden area. She can't really take this sword or on this sword legally or you know, properly. There's only the only Ave. that she can really possess this sword is to steal it and. She's put her represent. She she puts a boundary.

1:06:37 Yeah, she sees a boundary and says that's not for me. Which is characteristically it like a a teenager. A teenager. She's a teenager, yeah. And she finds so much freedom in the sword. The the sword represents freedom. It represents, you know, an unfettered lifestyle, something that's violent and enticing, which she's already been introduced to because she is already super talented with martial arts. And she steals it.

1:07:06 You know, she wants it for herself. She, she thinks that she's entitled to it, which comes from, I think, her upbringing of being in a fine household. She's in touch, feels entitled. Yeah. She doesn't earn it. Yeah, she doesn't need to earn it. I think that's what she thinks. She doesn't need to earn it because it already belongs to her. So yeah, she's a very interesting character, like I said.

1:07:30 And then we've but. She has no idea of consequences either, which is very. Dangerous. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah, She's just like, I'm just going to do whatever the heck, you know, I want to. And I think actually then when later on there is consequences to her actions, she can't take it. She's like, she can't take it because she goes and jumps off a Cliff at the end, doesn't she?

1:07:55 Like she goes and jumps off a Cliff, which I was like, well, this is I yeah. I was not expecting her character to go in that direction. Yeah. I think the first couple times that I watched it, it didn't clock that she just committed suicide. Yeah, yeah, mostly because they shroud. They shroud the action of jumping from the mountain in this fantastical positive legend of like, if you jump from the mountain, your wish is going to come true. Faith, your faith will make your wish come true or whatever. And at first I was like, OK, so she, this is martial arts world, people can fly.

1:08:39 So she just flew down the mountain and lived an unfettered independent lifestyle without this man in her life, without her family telling her what to do and whatever. And that's one interpretation of it. But I think watching it now as an adult and watching watch this movie several time like she people on committed suicide.

1:08:56 She killed herself. Killed herself. The thing is The thing is by sea drama watcher person coming out is being like there was no body then no body, no death. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Which is also valid interpretation of basically the first iteration of my understanding, which was her wish came true or she, she just wanted to leave everything behind and she felt guilty and all the stuff and she had her wish come true and she's alive because there's no body.

1:09:30 We don't know for sure. I think I'm a little more pessimistic now on the end. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She definitely killed herself. Like, I, I wasn't expecting that direction for the movie. I thought, I honestly thought, well, I didn't think her and Michelle Leo's character were going to become buddies, that's for sure.

1:09:51 Because like this, the consequences of her actions was that Lemo by ended up dead. So, you know, there is that, but I also thought that maybe she would have taken the road that because this has happened, she kind of owes something to be to these people and that she was going to go on a righteous path.

1:10:17 But I feel like the path she did take aligns more with her character because she'd never had any consequences. It's almost like she couldn't deal with it and and she couldn't deal with the world that was being thrown at her, so to speak. Yeah, I think the way that Sang Si plays it, especially when she meets with the the guy again, her lover Chang Chang Chen's character, and she I think they have sex one more time up on the mountains.

1:10:47 And then in the morning, she's already out of bed and like looking off into the fog of the mountain and obviously like contemplating suicide. But I'm like the way she plays it and the, the emotions or lack of emotions that play on her face. I'm like, she's already decided not to live with him or be with him for the rest of their lives and make, you know, forge a different path, one that is very romantic. But I, I don't think she chose that for herself. I think she really was changed after Lee Mobai's death and the fact that Michelle Yo's character does not choose revenge.

1:11:29 You know she held the green Destiny up to her neck and still chose not to kill her, which was completely within her rights. To do so. To do so and take that revenge on her because she really did so much wrong in this movie. Michelle Yeo tells her, whatever path you choose, be true to yourself. And unfortunately, I don't think she really figured it out. I think she thought, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve to live.

1:11:59 Yeah, I agree. I agree. But I still like I said what you get for the first time, I just didn't think it was going to go that way. And I think also it's because a lot of the dramas nowadays, they do choose to go a little bit lighter when it comes to endings and what, Or they just kill everybody off.

1:12:21 There's no like middle ground either. This or that. Yeah, yeah, there's no real ground, but yeah, I was not expecting her character to go there. I did want to see a bit more of like Michelle Yeoh's character because she like the last, the very last time we see her is like she says that quote. She kind of gives her space and then she just goes off.

1:12:45 So we don't really know what happens to her character. And I found her character, although she had less screen time than Zhangzi's character, I actually found hers more interesting because, you know, she had, I don't know, maybe she had like the Angstia story. I don't know. I don't know. But I or maybe it was better acted. She was the more compelling actress, but I was gravitated towards her and her story a bit more than I did Zanxi's story. So I wish we had seen a bit more of, you know, where she was going to go.

1:13:32 Michelle Yeoh is stunning in this movie, by the way, she. Really is. Yes, she really is. She really, really is. And The thing is, she has aged like fine wine, let me put it that way, because she looks just as beautiful today as she did back then. Like you can still see it's Michelle Yeoh, but it's like she's barely aged a day, I feel like, or she's aged very gracefully, I feel like. Right.

1:13:58 So, So yeah, I loved seeing because I haven't really seen Michelle Yeoh. Do you know, fight scenes like this or you know, so this was kind of like my introduction to her. I. Gotcha. OK, it was. Very, very special I. Do I do and she's so good I mean her the fight scenes between her and Zhang Zhi I mean that makes the movie. It's so good, it's so iconic.

1:14:27 It does. And it is super visceral, like both of them. Like she's pulling chunks of concrete and stone out of the wall to like throw at her. They're scaling buildings and running across rooftops and choosing different weapons to fight with. I love every second of them fighting. And then the, I can't remember which fight, if it was the first one or the second one where Zanzi keeps trying to fly away and she keeps pulling her down with her foot.

1:14:59 And then there's a lot of foot play happening, and Corio there. Incredible. Incredible. Yeah. You don't even want to blink or you miss something. I think my first, my two favorite fight scenes were the 1:00 where they're like both climbing up the wall and they're like going up and down the wall and fighting and what I think that's their very first.

1:15:20 I think it's the first one where Dungy's dressed as a Linda, basically. Yes, yes, yes. So I loved that back and forth and it's very clear. I mean, she's not fooling anyone who she is with that get up, right? Surely we all know who the the thief is from the get up. Well, they knew. That the thief entered the governor's house and so is somehow related to the governor and they just didn't know to what extent the governor knew or was involved.

1:15:49 And they, you know, that's very political and they didn't want to stir up shit. But yeah, they clocked her ass real fast, which she's a teenager. She. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going out after dark. Unaccompanied. I mean, there's a lot of things that are very enticing to a teenager in this movie, not just fighting all the adults for a legendary sword. They keep mentioning the Jung Who. At some point I don't think it was for the legendary sword though.

1:16:18 At some point it was just like it was ego. Yeah, to get strong, be strong on them. Or just like hey I can defeat this master dude who has never like lost. Right. Yeah, Yeah, it's totally bragging right? Almost bragging right? Yeah, but yeah. Bragging it because because like she learned more about like they, they had the, the manuscripts that, you know, Jade Fox was kind of learning as well and Jen had discovered more to it and kind of had unlocked it. And she never shared that information with Jade Fox. She's a selfish little bitch.

1:17:02 But yeah, Jade Fox is an interesting character as well because she's very clearly illiterate. Yeah. And she has this philosophy of kill or be killed. And she makes mention of seducing the dead master. You know, Cho Yun Fat's master was killed by her and he refused to train her. But she said, oh, he's he'll sleep with me, but he won't teach me martial arts, which is very damning of the master and misogynistic in a in a sense. And she steals this wooden scroll and doesn't know how to decipher it.

1:17:44 Yeah, right in its. Own way, like she is also a thief, just like she's passed on to her protege. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the same way, she can't decipher the sword. Yeah, nine. Yeah, she. Caught it's really she has like she has limits, whereas her protege doesn't and I think her protege at because she's like considered as a genius in terms of martial arts in general. I think she also started at a higher level than Jade Fox at the at the start anyway, which I found kind of interesting to like the fact like the the when you put them two together and like what they are going to be doing. J Fox wanted to learn from the master was refused. And then you have Jen, who the the new master of the sword was like, no, I want to train you

1:18:46 like I want to like, I realize you are rebellious and you don't like, you want to go against the grain, but I'm still willing to teach. You. Yeah, he sees her potential, Yeah, which is also very. It's a sticking point for Michelle Yo's character. You Michelle's like look, this is none of our business to intervene in Jen's life, to intervene in basically this highborn's life. We are martial artists.

1:19:14 This has nothing to do with us. We just want the support back. And Li Li MO by is like she has great talent and I'm sure that the wood on sex would accept her and make an exception. Basically make a grand exception and teach her these the sex martial arts ways. And I feel like they're, they're definitely playing into that like young versus old and women against women because the patriarchy doesn't allow them to kind of see eye to eye. Even though Michelle Leo's character knows martial arts, she is not a true disciple of this sect and it's something that she never got right.

1:19:59 I'm sure she would have loved to have been inducted and had a master and all of this stuff and said she was in. She was in a romantic way related to them because she was going to marry a warrior. So it's like, oh man, it's a subversion of what she always wanted. And it's just handed to Jen, who did this foul thing.

1:20:20 She was a criminal and stole the sword, and she's still going to get everything that Michelle Yeoh ever wanted. It's tough. Without any of the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that's also like, that's more like at the end, Michelle Leo decides to not kill her, whether that's for revenge, but also, as you just said, like this girl was going to be able to do the things that she had always wanted to do.

1:20:47 And that was even more incentive for Michelle Leo's character to take the route of killing this girl due to revenge, due to jealousy, all that stuff, and she still chose to go the other way and turn a blind eye. It's true. I think it's true power, like Michelle Yeoh's character really inhabits that true power that is worthy of the sword, worthy of this martial arts technique or whatever they do at the sect, and she still denied like the inner workings of that and being. Able to be a leader that was kind of AI think that was also a kind of a tribute to Cho Young Fat's character too, because he was like, yes, this girl has done horrible things and I'm still willing to take her as a disciple because she's so talented.

1:21:39 And I think Michelle yells like, as a matter of talented. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm still not going to do anything. Like I'm going for lack of a better term, like ignore it. But I'm I'm just not going to do anything with it even though I have every reason I could. Like I I'm justified if I wanted to go that route.

1:22:04 So they keep mentioning this Junghu world and I'm like, does that just mean the martial arts world? Like what does that mean? So I looked it up Chunghu and I hope I'm not totally butchering the pronunciation of that, but it literally translates to rivers and lakes. Refers to a semi mythical parallel society existing outside conventional authority commonly depicted in Chinese Busia fiction. It represents a world of honor, martial arts, wandering heroes, gangsters and outlaws defined by its own moral code rather than state law.

1:22:34 And in the Busia context, it just means like martial arts world inhabited by fighters, sword scholars and masters who follow a strict, often personal code of honor. So I thought that was interesting that they could they, the Chinese audience would know what this is. But us like reading subtitles like what is that?

1:22:51 Is that just like the way of the warrior? And in a sense, simplified way, it is. Yeah, yeah. I think it's kind of like it's almost what worship itself in compasses. It's like, you know, this very righteous path of a warrior, you know, with the specific set of rules that they kind of follow and they go round in the impetualistic world and kind of, you know, fight their own battles and right wrongs and whatnot. So.

1:23:20 So. So. Yeah. What did you guys think of the Chen Chen romance? It was OK. I think it's it. Was like stagger to the heart. The thing is, this has always got this is always going to be my complaint whenever I watch any movie is that there is not enough of it for me to fully be invested. Right? Yeah.

1:23:50 And that's not just of this movie, that's in general, I don't I like This is why I think I always gravitate and will always gravitate towards dramas because I like a really steady like progression of relationship, whereas a movie can never do that because a movie only has two hours to tell you see I. Fundamentally disagree with you, but I like this love story and I think when I was younger and watching this movie, I really like picked up on this aspect aspect of the story and this sort of love that could never be and was, you know, not allowed in their society.

1:24:33 And this bandit with a heart of gold who is not like choosing to rape her in his mountain cave. And all of their interactions, which were really poignant, I think. I think it's. Very agreeing to her. I think it's very fitting for her character because that is the one that is the person her family would not agree to.

1:24:56 That is the person that society wouldn't agree to. So of course that is the person she chose like she chooses, because again, it's another rebellion, it's another against the grain decision that she. Very true, very true that it's a part of her rebellion to choose this bad boy from the desert who's hijacking and stealing all of these valuables with his little mountain gang. I don't know how you can be immune to like Tang Chen in this movie.

1:25:32 He's so hot and the whole singing, so she knows where he is. And he brought up gallons upon gallons of water for her to take a bath in this desert with no water. That really spoke to me, that spoke to me deeply. And he has this the most romantic lines. I think they're looking at stars stargazing at night. And he says the story about how he saw meteor shower and stuff. And she says, oh, you're still a boy looking for shooting stars. And he says, I'm a man.

1:26:08 And I found the bright, the brightest star of all, meaning her and amazing, amazing set of lines. She's totally into it. And he's the one who tells her about the legend of anyone who dares jump from the mountain. God will grant his wish. Long ago, young man's parents were I'll. So he jumped, He didn't die, he wasn't even hurt. He floated away, far away, never to return. He knew his wish had come true if you believe it will happen. So he tells her about this jumping from the mountain thing, which if you are a pessimistic person, then you're not going to believe that her wish came true or his wish came true because she even asked him like, what do you wish for? And I think he says to be in the

1:26:48 desert again, to be with you in the desert or something. And then she just so it's not even her wish that that she has or wants to make come true. I think the last thing I had in my notes was something about the the tea house sash restaurant fight. Yeah, one of my favorites. So good. Super good but I picked up more on how she shows up to this tea house because she comes in and she is so rude. There is no respect to the other fighters in the in the community.

1:27:21 She over orders at the restaurant. She says, I want this, that and the other. And she's very, you know, she's indulgent. And at the beginning, you know, that Michelle Yeo is like, look, we're out there struggling. There's no place for us to stay. You know, we're starving out there. Just committed to the warriors way.

1:27:40 And she's over here ordering like 50 things off the menu. It's not what a struggling warrior would do, right? Right. And she keeps showing attitude. I mean, she is a problem. She's a menace. She really is. She really is. Mm hmm, that ungratefulness. Because later she could, she meets with Michelle again just before their second fight, and she is accusing Michelle Yo's character of foul play, giving her bad manipulative advice. And Michelle Yo's like, look, I'm just trying to keep this thing quiet.

1:28:15 You don't understand the favor that I'm doing you by not making this a bigger issue than it is. And all of this attitude, discontent, ungratefulness that she's showing toward her culminate in the second fight where she says we're not sisters. We're we're, you know, we're not friends, which I love that. I love that Michelle Yeoh's character really calls her out on her bullshit.

1:28:37 Yeah. Anything else you want to share? No. I don't think I've got anything else to. I think also the a fight scene that also stood out to me with I think Liliana already kind of touched on was the top of the bamboo fight. Come on. Because one, I remember this like again, as I said, this is one of the first introductions to like Chinese cinema that I've ever had.

1:29:04 So I've never really I always remember that fight because that was really kind of my first look at like that type of fighting, like on top of bamboo and the bamboo bending and like using the bamboo as basically a third weapon or third fighter in in the how whoever is fighting. So that that scene always kind of stands out. Also, it's during the day.

1:29:30 So like a lot of these fight scenes are darker in the night or like in darkly, like more dark rooms, like lit rooms. But this one is the complete opposite. It's like out in the open in this green lush. Beautiful bamboo forest, yeah. Yeah, so I like the contrast that it has, but also just like again with the dancing and the bending of the bamboo and. These slow motion shots in the middle of this fight scene and it's like ugly juxtaposing those two and making it about the characters versus the actual fight. Right.

1:30:11 And it also kind of shows like it, Yes, there's like you had Jen, who is this arrogant person the entire movie. And I think that fight in the bamboo is really the first time you see Charlie on Fox character kind of playing around like he he's like, OK, I'm good too. Let me show you in my element. And I think that I love that scene just because it was kind of him giving back into these elements he's.

1:30:42 Teaching. Yeah. He's teaching you a lesson. Yes. Yeah, definitely down. Definitely. Because there's a specific moment in that scene where they're both on one single bamboo, like, yeah, both on one single bamboo. And she keeps jumping. Yes. I don't know if it's just. Yeah. I don't know, but she keeps jumping up and down to try and he's just like steady as a tree on it. And she you can see her visibly get frustrated because it's like it's the first time she's like, she hasn't. Gotten her way.

1:31:15 Actually, yeah, she hasn't gotten her way and she's not walking away very easily. And I don't think she wouldn't have walked away from that fight unless somebody, everybody came in and took her away because he is visibly better than her. And I think that really annoys her. It enrages her a lot. Yeah, yeah, the fact.

1:31:35 Also is because she's been boasting the entire movie that she killed the guy who held the sword and now that the fact she's actually fighting him in his element and it's very clear she would never have been able to beat the guy that frustrates her, that frustrates her even more. Even though she has the sword, she doesn't have the.

1:31:56 Upper Hail. She has the sword. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that frustrates her. And yeah, she's so braggadocious. She thinks she's invincible with the sword, but all she is a stubborn, willful and rebellious, and she refuses to take Limu Baez, a master in this scene. Towards the end, he says she says she tries to challenge him, which is so freaking arrogant of her.

1:32:16 She says if you can take back the sword in less than three moves, I'll I'll be your I will kneel and and basically pledge that I'm your disciple. You'll be my master. He takes it back in one fucking move without even trying and she refuses to show him any respect. He says he tells her like kneel down and she like no and he says well fine then you don't need this sword and tosses it. So incredible scene.

1:32:48 Beautiful scene of, you know, the juxtaposition between these two and how he's just so steady and sure and him being so good at all of this stunt work and, and this really muted fight scene just makes her so upset. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then we get to the end where he dies. 00. The lines here still I I still cry at those lines. Oh my.

1:33:21 God, yes. He says for me. Like I liked, I liked the the desert romance thing, but I have a soft spot for their because it's so yeah, it's. So even though they on both. Sides on both sides. Like it's not like it's not like he's loved her forever and like because she was engaged to their friend he could never say anything. It is very clear they both loved each other. For a.

1:33:49 Very long time and they just have this ghost following them where they can't love come all like to what they really want. And so I've always loved their story. Yeah, he tells their. Story to me. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say their story to me was much more compelling. Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. Yeah, Yeah.

1:34:13 It just felt stronger as a. Story it did. It felt solid. And the other relationship between Jen and the bandit guy are it's very passionate, but it's also just young. It feels young if it feels of a moment. It's the difference. It's the difference between puppy love and a mature romance, I would say. Because like the, you know, the other two, they've been in love for a minute at that point.

1:34:42 Yeah, and, well, you could also kind of tell Solid love. Right. You could also tell that in a way Jen was using him. Like I never really like after repeat watches, I realized like she was never going to stay with the guy. Like you even knew that before the ending and repeat watches because you knew he she was like, OK, I'm rebelling. I'm using this guy, dragging him along, whatever. Whereas Michelle yells, romance is the complete opposite. Mind you, he had full like Chen Chen's character had full control over the situation, like she could not escape if she wanted to, which she did try and escape and she basically almost died and he had to bring her back to the mountain cave. He fed her.

1:35:29 He, you know, bathed her. He was, I don't want to say it's that awful like syndrome that like the captive falls in love with the captor because I don't think that's true, but she was playing her cards in that situation. Yeah, definitely. So that she could survive and get out of it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that death scene at the end always, always gets me.

1:35:54 God. Because she's telling him, Michelle Yale is telling him, you know, save your breath, you know, concentrate on meditating and dispelling this poison for as long as possible. And he chooses to not do that and tell her I have already wasted my whole life with my last breath. I wanted to tell you that I have always loved you and it was giving like I'm thus with a kiss I die. Like, you know what?

1:36:17 I'm. Saying Shakespearean of it. And he says, I had to pause the movie because I was like, damn, this is hitting so hard right now. And I've seen this movie before. He tells her. I would rather be a ghost drifting by your side as a condemned soul than enter heaven without you because your love. Because of your love, I will never be a lonely spirit.

1:36:39 And then he dies and you're like, oh. Yeah, exactly. What the hell? It's the more compelling story. I mean, that's a love. Story that's a love story. And the fact I think also what works with them is like, you knew that by the time he said that. Like, they're with their chemistry and the way that they look at each other.

1:37:04 And, like, throughout the movie, he didn't really need to say it because everybody, including them, knew. And that just kind of just hurt. Like, it was like another sword to the chest. It was like, of course he loved her because you could tell for the last two hours. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. I think that's a good spot to to leave it at. I feel like this is a movie review but it's longer than some drama reviews.

1:37:34 I mean, that's how I say like it's, it's might feel simple to people that are so deeply embedded in sea drama, land and, and especially Mooses and Sanchez and all of these large genres that cover so much ground and have so many characters and it feels very rich. This is a rich text. Like don't let it deceive you. It's two hours of very rich storytelling. So I I love that.

1:37:59 I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Right, I think that's a good spot to leave it. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. It's always a blast to have you guys around. And yeah, that is it. That is the episode. I hope you guys have enjoyed it, and we shall catch you in the next one. Bye. Bye.