Will the Pope Be An Ally Against AI? w/ Paolo Benanti

0:00 Because basically, what the church has said on technology, on AI until now, is everything that is serving the human nature and the human beings, it's positive. Everything that is allowing people to flourish, it's really positive. So it's not we don't have a problem with AI. We could have a problem with some ends of some human using the AI.

0:42 Paolo is an author, academic, and priest. He teaches at the Pontifical Gregorian University and was an advisor to Pope Francis on artificial intelligence and technology ethics. Now, as you probably know, we have a new Pope. Pope Leo XIV was chosen to follow Pope Francis in May. And of course, there are a lot of significant things about that development.

1:03 But one of the things that stood out to me, and one of the things that is relevant here on a critical technology podcast, is how one of the first things that Pope Leo started talking about was AI, what it meant for people, what it meant for workers. And that really caught my attention for a few reasons.

1:19 First of all, just to hear him talking about that seemed significant. You know, the question of what he might do in response, whether the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church are going to take a position on artificial intelligence and wade more into this conversation is something that I think we should be looking for, aware of, keeping track of, because obviously the Roman Catholic Church has a lot of influence, a lot of followers.

1:43 And so that could really impact any conversation that we're having about this technology. Also, because by calling himself Pope Leo, the new modern Pope Leo was also kind of setting himself up to follow the previous one, who was a Pope who talked a lot about workers' rights during the Industrial Revolution and did a number of important actions within the church in response to that.

2:06 So it seemed quite clear that this Pope Leo, by choosing that name, because of course Leo is not the Pope's actual name, you know, it's the name that he chose to represent himself, that it seems quite clear that he sees artificial intelligence and the digital technologies rolling out right now as ones that could potentially impact workers in the way that the Industrial Revolution was, and he's concerned about the impacts that that might have.

2:29 You know, that's a suggestion that comes from that choice. But then the other piece of this is how the church was already saying things about artificial intelligence before this, even under the tenure of Pope Francis. Things that, you know, when you go and read them, sound a lot like the secular critiques that we hear quite commonly of these technologies, picking up not on the idea that artificial intelligence is about to become like a human or beyond it and a threat to us, but the real tangible harms that can come out of the rollout of these technologies into the world.

3:03 So, in the face of all those things, I really wanted to talk to somebody to learn a bit more about what is happening in the church in relation to artificial intelligence, how the church and the pope might understand the technology and how they might approach it. And Paolo was the perfect guest to do that, not just because he has served that advisory role that I mentioned earlier, but also because he has a long training in the ethics of these technologies, thinks a lot about it.

3:30 So I was really excited to have him on the show and to get his insights on what we should be seeing here and whether we can think of the Roman Catholic Church as an ally in this fight against these technologies. So I hope you enjoy this conversation because I certainly found it quite insightful. If you enjoy the conversation, make sure to leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice.

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4:25 Good morning, and thank you for having me. I'm uh really excited by that. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to speak with you. I think a lot of people noted how the new Pope Leo XIV was talking about artificial intelligence soon after he became the Pope. And I think for some people that might have been a bit of a surprise, right?

4:44 But actually the Vatican has been working on artificial intelligence, has been publishing about artificial intelligence for some time. And you have been one of the advisors on that. And so I want to talk to you about that. But first I want to learn a bit more about you and how you kind of came to this position.

4:59 You know, I was reading that you studied engineering before joining the Franciscan Order, and then you worked on a PhD in moral philosophy. Can you tell me a bit about your journey to where you are today?

5:10 Well, uh, the journey was, I think, a really unique one. I was born in 1973, and the real uh new thing was the computer at that time. If you see some some Cilius on some TV show in the 70s, was Dungeons and Dragons, was BMX, the little computer like the Spectrum was the first, and then we go to up to Amiga.

5:36 So all this stuff was part of my my childhood. When I grew up, I start with engineer just to understand how the work was. Well, then it was not enough for me, and my journey took another direction, and I joined the Franciscan Order, thinking probably that that was uh a time of my life that was simple gone.

5:57 But at one point, uh, when I was offered to make a PhD, after I studied philosophy, theology, and ethics, I decided to make a PhD that could work at the intersection of this huge technological, uh digital technological revolution that I saw when I grew up, and what does it mean for the human beings in the contemporary age?

6:21 And this is uh what how it goes. I went to Georgetown University in DC just to make part of dissertation, and at that point I took the intersection of three kinds of technology uh nanotechnology, brain implant, and AI. Well, it was 2008, and at that point, AI simple exploded, but now also brain implants are coming back pinging on us.

6:49 But that was my perspective. What does it mean to be human in a such environment, technological environment like the digital one is promising to us?

6:58 Yeah, and you know, the the kind of relevance of those conversations have only become more important in the years since you've been doing those studies, right? It's like we're all wondering today how we are going to deal with with all these technologies.

7:11 Yeah, today it's easier to say. Yeah, if if I can be quite frank with you, at that time when I say to my people in the church, you know, I would like to study the intersection about that, and that they look at me in a really strange way, like to say, hmm, what you are talking about? Now I will once it's okay and say, yes, it's a really important topic.

7:30 But you know, to build the first one in some way is not the easy option sometimes.

7:34 Definitely. And now they're even turning to you for advice rather than kind of raising their eyebrows when you say you want to study the ethics of technology, right? So, how did you then kind of make that pivot into, you know, doing these studies, you know, obviously you're you're doing your work and you've been teaching at the university.

7:50 How does it happen that you then become an advisor to the Vatican and and to Pope Francis on artificial intelligence then?

7:58 When we say Vatican, we have to say different body. One that we collectively call Odyssey is this idea that Vatican is also a state. And as a state, as different uh offices that take care of different directions of the everyday life. Uh, one, for example, is about health, another one is about education, another one is about social justice.

8:21 And so much more AI was pinging on the different uh parts of our everyday life, much more there is a needing of reflection. And this body, like a ministerium for a government, simple take professor to have a discussion to know how the frontier is and things like that. And here I am. So I was involved, I was part of the discussion, uh, and then we are we are going on.

8:48 That's fantastic, though, because a lot of people think of the church and they think of this like religious institution, but of course, it is also its own country as well for you know historical reasons. So when the Vatican, or you know, when various departments within the Holy See approach you to talk about artificial intelligence, what are the types of things that they are interested in kind of asking about and learning more about?

9:11 Well, uh, first of all, it's not just the Olyssea, because uh, if you look at the Anglican Church, for example, the Bishop of Oxford is also one of the members of the House of the Lord. And he was in charge of the law about AI for United Kingdom. So, you know, it's a way to be present of the church in everyday problem that uh ping on us also to have a reflection.

9:33 But this is old, old, old. Uh, Franciscan arise in the 13th century. And because we were in the square with people, all the problem that people have in the square was bring it to the church about the reflection. One of the most interesting things probably is about the use of the money during the Middle Age and the idea that merchant means this idea to have bank and things like that.

9:56 And Franciscan was in that moment with the reflection that produced that kind of changing. So I'm not the first in the order to leave this kind of pinging of history and church reflection. I'm not the only one. The problem is that theoretically someone sees the religious life like something that is in a bubble outside of the everyday life, and that makes it surprising.

10:21 But if you think that the majority of the living people on the planet are religious, it makes sense that religion in some way can feel the problem of the majority of people of that theater.

10:32 Of course. And you talked about how you are part of the Franciscan Order. You know, obviously that is a bigger kind of dedication to a religious life than a lot of people tend to make. Was it difficult to make that decision to kind of commit yourself so clearly to this way of living and seeing the world?

10:49 You know, joining a religious order is simple, is like to marry a woman. At one point you find something that says, oh, wow, if every day could be like this, it could be nice. And that's probably the best metaphorical images that I can find to describe what's happening in me. Simple, this idea to have a situation in which I can spend my life simple studying, deeping uh uh the knowledge, questioning myself and questioning the reality, was something that amazed me.

11:16 And so the idea that I can do day by day, it's what uh pushed me in this direction. What's happening now, so the idea that we are having such kind of conversation, it's a confirmation that this form of life, it's a form of dedicated life. That means that you can do something in one direction uh during your life, and probably it's was something that is still uh working for me like an engine for an everyday reflection on what's going on.

11:45 You talked about how obviously there are other governments who and other religions that are that are working with different governments, but you also, I read, advised the Italian government on artificial intelligence as well. Can you talk to me a bit about that and how you saw the difference in speaking to you know the Holy See versus kind of the government of Italy and maybe the questions they were asking about or interested in when it came to artificial intelligence?

12:09 You know, I'm also a citizen, like every one of us, you know? And there is this idea to be a civil servant, and this is really Franciscan. Because I'm also a university professor, the knowledge that I have as a university professor is something that is in some way needed to different bodies that would like to have a or contribute to a governance.

12:29 And this has happened with the Italian governments, it happened with the United Nations, it happened with UNESCO, and it happened also with the Council of Europe. So the different uh bodies that would like to include the civil society look at people that could bring a competence inside the debate. And it happened with the Italian government, it happened with the United Nations, and it happened with other bodies.

12:56 Well, my work with the Italian government is mainly focused uh in two areas. First, with other professors to develop a strategical view on AI for the government and the growth of the economics. But the other one, the commission that I'm the president now, is to study the impact of AI on journalism and on the news.

13:17 Because you know, every every democracy uh stands on a good idea that the citizens can make their own opinion on fact and then react on that. And so is it AI something that uh could uh make it better, worse, what else? This is part of the focus of the commission that uh I'm working now with the Italian government.

13:37 It's such an important issue as well, right? And I feel like when we think about these national governments, whether it's in Italy or in the UK or in Canada where I am, often I feel like the approach that they have taken to AI, especially in the past year, has been one of excited adoption and how do we get more investment in data centers and get more companies investing AI and in growing AI?

14:01 And obviously you come at it from a position of thinking about the ethics, of thinking about the morality and you know, the potential impacts. Is that something that the Italian government has been interested in hearing about, or have they been more focused on, you know, how do we adopt AI for productivity and efficiency and all these sorts of things?

14:19 No, well, like every government, there are different uh ministries and different directions. The real thing here is that AI, it's much more similar to a general purpose technology, then not a special one. It's much more similar to electricity, for example. And like electricity changed from medicine up to the television, we are facing the same things with AI.

14:41 And this is why the government has multiple tables on AI, multiple commissions. And knowing what's going on and what will be next for how much as possible is something that is fundamental to have some kind of politics and governance of the phenomenon. Especially in this moment now in which you know the globalization as we dreamed 10 years ago probably is falling down, and the cooperation, the international cooperation is challenged now by a lot of international tension.

15:11 It's a difficult time for a lot of issues and for a lot of cooperation, right? I wanted to go back to this kind of approach of the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Francis toward artificial intelligence because there were actually a number of statements made and kind of writings released about artificial intelligence during that time.

15:30 Can you talk to me a bit about how the Roman Catholic Church has been looking at artificial intelligence and has been understanding it?

15:38 First of all, we have to recognize that watching the technology and the impact of technology in society is not just something that belonged to this age. Uh, 150 years ago with the Industrial Revolution, Europe faced one of the most dramatically changes in society and in demography that was also linked to political fight and struggle, strike, communist party, and things like that.

16:05 So it's at least at that time that the church has started to develop this uh way to interact with the social phenomena that are changing the society. In one way, AI is another link of that kind of industrial revolution, because one of the use of AI is for the automation. And so it's in some way natural that this 150-year-long journey of the church on social impact of technology needs another link, and this link of the chain is with AI.

16:37 But AI is surprising us because it's not just a new form of automation in production. Probably what we are seeing now is also with LLM and the generative AI, a lot of impact on culture and what we feel, what we believe, what does it mean to know something, how we can give to people the competence to recognize if an AI is hallucinating and things like that.

16:58 And this is what's behind the interest of the church. And it's connected to social justice, it's connected to migration, it's connected to the human dignity and the nature of the work, and a lot of topics that already are in the reflection of the church, but then now are facing this new frontier of dialogue.

17:19 I went back and read some of these, you know, writings, some of the things that were released, and I was really struck just by how the Roman Catholic Church was reflecting on issues that you hear very commonly from other researchers, from other people who are working on these issues. For example, in January of 2024, when the Pope marked the World Day of Social Communications, he talked about the risks that AI posed to digital communication, you know, how it could leave us prey to market forces, and also talked about how algorithms can shape the types of things that we see online and of course how we understand reality, which probably comes up when you're thinking about journalism and news consumption

18:03 and things like that too, when you're working with the Italian government. Like these are issues that are present, right? But are things that the Roman Catholic Church is paying attention to as well.

18:11 From some way, it's not so different when we introduced lenses in the 15th century. With telescopy, we were able to see things that we were not able to see before. With microscopy, we discovered that reality is much less unique or one thing as we think. But we discovered also that with lenses, there are some bad effects that are the diffraction.

18:34 And diffraction is something that not only allows us to see how the reality is. Well, this time is not uh a matter of telescopy or microscopy, but these new statistical tools that are the algorithm are introducing probably a new tool that we can define the macroscopy that allows us to find scheme in reality among a huge amount of data.

18:57 So there is one big question, and the big question is science traditionally bring us technology, but not always technology brows tech new science. It will be AI, a technology that will bring more science, but we have to work in uh urgently in such a direction because we need more science for a lot of problems of the human of the human community around the world, from environment up to health and things like that.

19:24 And this is one question, and it's about epistemology, and what does it mean to know with AI? Then there is another thing that uh you know religions know very well, that the way in which you tell story produces also uh an understanding of the others' people. So, to tell you in an easy way, you can build a brother with a story, welcome to Franciscan, or you can build an enemy with a story.

19:52 And so having a machine that is so powerful in building really powerful stories could be the best tool to allow us to bridge together the differences and have a new future of prosperity, to understand us better and to avoid misunderstanding, or could be the most powerful tool for any kind of regime propaganda that simple would like to put people against people.

20:19 And the problem, once again, is not in the technology, but in the human side of technology. What are the ends of our use of technology? And if we talk about ends, that is something that is really near to religious discussion on uh on reality. And this is why there is this deep ego between what's going on and what the church feels that can help in finding things.

20:43 Because basically, what the church has said on technology, on AI until now is everything that is serving the human nature and the human beings, it's positive. Everything that is allow people to flourish, it's really positive. So it's not we don't have a problem with AI. We could have a problem with some ends of some human using the AI.

21:02 I think that's a really important way to frame it, right? Is always to focus on this human element and this human aspect of it, and really placing that at the center because I feel like that can be something that we really lack in the discourses that we hear from some of the tech sector and some of these leaders of these tech companies today, right?

21:21 And it's so damn old. 60,000 years ago, when we was in the cave, and one member of our species taking his hand a clapstick, was it a tool or a weapon? Well, so the the discussion is really old. And then there is something that is the distribution of a technology inside society that can change the nature of technology.

21:41 Simple thing what Noble did. Noble tried to stabilize the explosive to allow the miners to not die making their job. And then he found that it became the unit of measure for the bombing world. And so this multi stability of technological. Element is something that we have to be aware of. But this is not new.

22:08 If I can be a little bit uh a theologous now, isn't it what find we find in the Bible? Uh you know, when you have Cain and Abel, uh in which something becomes from a fruit of the land to survive, it becomes the source of a conflict, or try to think to the book of Isaiah, where the prophecy of the prophet Isaiah says that we can convert sword and lands to tool to cultivate the land.

22:36 So when church is trying to speak about these things, is this idea that there is nothing that comes out from the genius of the human beings that is not able to participate to what God, the Creator, thinks for us. This is the really core positive approach that the church has on technology. Because the human being is made by God, everything, the ratio, the rationality, rationality is a gift of God.

23:02 So everything that is according to rationality is not against the faith. Because we are this core understanding and comprehension, there is no technological tool that comes out from our mind, from our imagination, that is not in some way part of God's will on us. The problem is it is remain a tool or for other reason could become a weapon.

23:25 And so there is a really positive outlook on that. And then we know the human nature that not always is well aligned, but that we are back to our mission, that is another things.

23:37 I think that's such an interesting observation, though, right? Because it even aligns with a lot of kind of secular approaches to technology as well. And as I hear you talking about, you know, how technology kind of emerges from the mind, and the question is, is it a tool or is it a weapon or how is it being used?

23:55 It brings me back to something that was written in Antica Enova, this note that was published by the Vatican under Pope Francis in January of 2025, where near the end of that note, they talked about how technology can have really good applications in society, it can improve people's lives, but not every technology is inherently, you know, something that that is good for the world.

24:17 And we need to be able to properly assess those things, right? And of course, I'm I'm paraphrasing, I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but it was it was something along those lines, right?

24:26 You are totally right. And I think that we need to be really clear on this positive-based outlook on technology. Because, you know, it not always was so clear that the church has no problem with innovation and technology. And I think that is also a huge service to the gospel to be really clear on how we have to understand uh reasoning, reason and mind and technology and the ability of the human beings to be in some way someone that is cooperating with the will of God through the reason.

25:01 And this is urgent too, but this is for the church. For the public good is simple keeping alive this questioning in the public space. Is it a tool or a weapon that is one of the services that the church can do with other religions in this time? And I think that this idea of being inclusive and different is at the core base of the wrong call for AI ethics.

25:26 This initiative that was making in 2020 started by in uh in Rome. The name was Rome Call for AI ethics and not Vatican Call for AI ethics to make it plural. And beside the church, at that time there was Microsoft IBM, uh, the FIU organization was there. So we have these plural things. Then it happened that two days later we have the lockdown for the COVID.

25:49 So we stop a little bit for one hour and a half because the international relationship was really tough. But then we enlarge it and the Abrahmitic religion, Muslim and Jewish, sign it. So it's the first document in which the three Abrahitic religions signed together on a topic, and the topic was AI. And the core element is the same.

26:08 Let's make a tool for the common good. In the last summer at Hiroshima, 21 different religions of the world signed the document. Meanwhile, a lot of universities and other governments and other institutions and other tech companies signed the goal. The goal is not a proof of ethicality of a product, it's not a checklist for ethicality, it's not a mandatory list of things, but it's a cultural push.

26:36 The success of the goal will be the day in which there is no more needing for the goal. There is no need, means that such kind of ethical questions are spread in society and they are kept alive. But the Hiroshima signature was really important because at that point the majority of religion, that means the majority of human beings on the planet, say that we need to say no more to a weaponization of a technology like the one that happened with the bomb.

27:05 And religion has to take side, and the take side that they have to take is the side of the peace. And today it's really prophetic and it's really powerful. But we have to work for that. So it's a plural, inclusive, diverse, multi-stakeholder initiative. In this moment, the church does not feel the urgency to do something that is church branded, but to understand itself as a square in which different people with different perspectives can convene to talk about the challenge of today.

27:37 And I think that's a really useful role to play, right? I wanted to go back just for a moment to what you were talking about there of all of these religions, first the Abrahamic face, but then these global religions really coming together to have this agreement. How difficult is it to get all of these religious leaders, all of these representations of these different religions to come together on an issue?

27:59 And why was it that artificial intelligence and thinking about the role that these technologies play and wanting to stop weaponization, how did that become something that so many religions were able to come together to put out kind of a joint agreement on?

28:12 Well, first of all, with Abrahimidic was easy because we were before the Gaza fact. And it was a really quiet moment that made it happen and possible. For a broader approach to religions, if there is something that is everywhere, is a smartphone. On the smartphone, this AI and the effect of AI of the algorithm on kids is visible everywhere.

28:36 So the addictive nature of some kind of social platform is really visible for the power element of this kind of AI algorithm. And there is non-religious leaders that do not feel talking with people, how the parents are in struggle to keep the child in a safe zone facing these tools. And so looking at the next generation, looking at the idea that we need to offer our voice as a religious people, to simply say that the most fragile in society has to be taken into account and not exploited, it was the common ground where it was really easy to find a common place on AI.

29:14 And then let me tell with a joke: AI is too fast and too young to have time among religions to fight among us on what is. So that that helps too. But this is a joke. But just to tell you that, you know, it's new. It's for everyone, it's in everyone's life, and it's touching every religion on looking at what's going on with the youngest.

29:37 Yeah, no, uh, again, uh I think it makes complete sense for why that would be, right? Especially as we see, you know, more and more concerning reporting on the impacts of these technologies and questioning about what the response is going to be. And on that, I wanted to briefly go back to that note, Antica ANOVA, that was published.

29:55 As I was reading it, it really stood out to me one how it centered humanity and was also skeptical of some of the claims about artificial intelligence, what it was, how it worked. For example, there's this quote that reads AI, quote, lacks the richness of corporeality, relationality, and the openness of the human heart to truth and goodness.

30:18 Its capabilities, though seemingly limitless, are incomparable with the human ability to grasp reality. Then it goes into issues of how AI is deployed, in, you know, whether it's healthcare or education or even warfare, and expresses a concern about the type of technocratic world that we're seeing created where efficiency is put above humanity, right?

30:40 And so I wonder if you could just kind of broadly give us your thoughts on that note, what it communicated about the church's approach to AI, and if there was anything that really stood out to you from what was kind of contained in that and the argument that is made.

30:56 Until AI remains a tool, it has all the ability of a tool. And probably in someone that is uh this, let me use a religious word, temptation, to make of AI something that is more than a tool. But once again, the problem is in the human beings, not in the tool. So if you would like to make uh of a car your gut, you can, but it remains a car.

31:21 You can in some way adore your car. Someone is adoring or also his own cat. They was called a gypsy at that time. But you know, just to make a joke. It's okay. This is possible for the human beings to not be focused on the nature of things. But the real knowledge starts when you know what you have in front of you.

31:42 And you know, this is sorry, I'm the philosopher, so let me move a little bit on the philosophical side. If you have a square, the limit of the square, the fourth side, is the nature of the square. If you have a circle, the limit of the circle is the nature of the circle. What made of this portion of space that things and not something else?

32:05 So when we talk about the what is AI, we are talking about the limit of AI. So limit is not something that from outside is pinging on the nature of AI. So the limit of the engine of a car is not the speed limit that you put on the street, but the fact that if you don't put oil inside the car, it does not work.

32:28 And the same things happen with AI. So when we talk about limit of AI, we are not talking of the willing to simple constrain or deny what AI is able to, but the need that we have to understand the nature of the tools to allow it to serve us in the better way that we can imagine. So we don't want to stop AI, but we would like to know the limit.

32:52 And if the limit is that you need some kind of oil to make it work, let's work on that. And guardrail on the street is not because we don't want to make you free, but to avoid accidents, because the car has a huge limit that you have a frontal collision, you can be died. And this is here we have on the same situation.

33:12 But I know that today we are in a culture in which sometimes when we say limit, someone can say something that is, you know, making it uncomfortable. Like if the limit is someone else's will on you. That's not the case. In an age in which we develop a so powerful culture, we have to know where and how the technology is stable to use it in a trustable way for the human beings.

33:40 So if the technology is not stable and can hallucinate, no one would like to have a doctor that misunderstands your symptoms and gives you the wrong kind of cure.

33:48 I appreciate you moving into the philosophical realm to flesh that out for us because I do think it gives us a different perspective, right? And that is part of the reason why I wanted to have you on the show is to explore this issue through a bit of a different light than maybe one that we hear about really frequently, right?

34:04 And so I wanted to ask you, obviously, we've been talking about some of the things that have been published by the church. We've been talking about what we saw under Pope Francis, but obviously Pope Leo XIV became the Pope a few months ago, now in in early May. And one of the initial issues that he highlighted was artificial intelligence.

34:23 And, you know, again, talking about what it might mean for workers, what it might mean for the public, the broader humanity, these issues that we've been discussing, right? And one of the things that that really stood out to me was how people really paid attention to that, because it comes at a moment where so many people are talking about AI.

34:41 What have you taken of Pope Leo's talk about AI? And do you have an idea of what his approach to it is going to be? And do you see it still being in line with what we saw being published under Pope Francis?

34:54 Well, first of all, Pope Leo is a human being. So it would be a predictive algorithm to know what he would like to prefer or not. So let us be surprised from his reaction. Let me start to answer to you from a personal side and then from an interpretation of the words that he said. My personal side, as I told you before, you know, I was uh starting to deepen my connection between philosophy and theology and AI in 2008.

35:24 And if in 2008, when I say I'm studying AI, other people in the church look at me and how strange is this, guys? That in 2025 the poop say that he's the first element in the list. Isn't it amazing? Isn't it shocking? So, first element is wow, so short, so so deep changing. Second things, I think that uh the poop needs time to produce an answer that makes sense and is able to face the rapid changing of AI.

35:54 So we don't have to be in a rush on that. Uh, this is the tradition of the church. Slow, but I'll be thinking topic on some on some element. Element number two. When he said the day two of his after his election, the next day, to the cardinal, I took the name Leo XIV for a lot of reasons, but also because like Leon XIII faced the Industrial Revolution, we are facing something that with AI is really deeply changing over time.

36:27 Do this, the church has to offer the social doctrine of the church. Well, this is a really interesting point, you know, because we are not in the Galileo style to bless or dance. But social doctrine means easier, the genius is out of the bottle. Let's ask together how much is too much on how we could serve to the global good.

36:51 So it's a really standing position. So AI is something that we have to cope with. Let's put the church in a perspective to help humanity to understand what is the best use of this. And I find this this is already a program, you know, it's already a plan, it's already an agenda. But then he says something else.

37:12 Two, look at the human dignity and the impact on the late work. So one thing is the human dignity, and the human dignity is a really interesting and powerful element. There are a series of situations in which someone could be tempted to allow an algorithm to take a decision on human life, they treat the human life as a bounce of data and not like someone that deserves the maximum respect.

37:42 So this is another really strong point in the agenda. And then the third is work, and work is connected to social justice. Because AI is a multiplier and could be a multiplier of justice or a multiplier of uh inequality. So I think that Liu give us three powerful directions, then give him time to understand how to play it, in which way, in which table.

38:08 Don't forget that the church is present as a diplomatic presence everywhere. And so one diplomatic way will be a really important one. Then we have also the ability to talk to all the people, and this is important too, because you know, you have to bring out a culture of human dignity and AI. And then there is this idea of having also documents that could inspire some kind of public debate.

38:36 So the frontier of the action is really big. And I think that we need to give the Pope time to organize a systematic approach. But the three core elements that I simply lighted, I found them really clear, powerful, and strike, you know. So, yes, I think that we will have interesting time.

38:57 Yeah, so did I, right? When you talk about those three elements, I thought it was really interesting to see how he laid it out and provided me some hope for the role that the church and that the Pope might play in the discussions that that continue on these issues, right? And you talked about the diplomatic role that the Vatican and that the Pope can play.

39:17 Of course, we saw that with Pope Francis on climate change and the encyclical that he released on that and how he was trying to move conversations forward on taking action on climate change, not to mention the other issues that you know that he was particularly concerned about. And so it would be interesting then to see if the church under Pope Leo wants to do something like that with artificial intelligence and with the ways that we think about digital technology.

39:41 I think that there's a real opportunity there, right?

39:44 Yeah, yeah. I think it's it's a huge thing. Something that probably we are not really used in the contemporary culture is this dense way to express that Pop Leo has. Because I quote one sentence, in one sentence, there is so much. So in uh, you know, in a 150 character time, having so much content in one phrase need that probably we have not to look just at what Pop Leo says, but also uh to an action of a lot of people that can help us to in some way get inside the sense of what will Pope will say to us.

40:26 And that could be a challenge because you know we are in a tweet age. And if you is if it's not straight, clear and simple, it could not have so much impact. But when you have a complex reality, there are no simple solutions. Sometimes simple solution we call simple solution populism. So if we don't want to have such kind of answer, then the action and the words of the Pope need to be in some way explained, diluted in a more broader discourse.

40:58 And that could be the challenging sides, you know. I'm talking now as a member of the church for the future, because a Pope that is able to express so much in so few words probably need to be diluted and make it understandable to a lot of people. I don't know. He's also able to be really clear and strike when he was.

41:18 But in in that speech, be huge and intense in one sentence.

41:24 Definitely. And you know, there's the opportunity to do both, right? To to make it very clear and understandable for a wider public, and then to publish something that is much longer and much more detailed that goes into the specifics, right?

41:35 And to show that there is a reflection behind. It's not something that simple fall out from the sky, you know?

41:42 Exactly. I think through this conversation, you have also given us insight into the approaches that you have toward technology and the ethics of technology. But I also wanted to ask you obviously, you are also pulling from more theological inspirations when you're thinking about these issues, but also the contemporary discourses that happen around technology.

42:04 And so I wonder what type of things inspire your work and what are things that really stand out to you that are really important when we when you think about the ethics of how we approach these new technologies that we're dealing with?

42:16 Really thank you for this question because give me the opportunity to clarify my rights on when I say ethics of technology, what does it mean? Well, ethics of technology arise around the understanding that every time that you release a technology in society, it acts as a form of order and displacement of power.

42:34 So if I build a highway, where I put the entrance and the exit to the highway is allowing someone to get in and someone to get out, and it's denying to someone and to someone else. So ethics of technology is not about the nature of technology, but is about the social use of technology. So ethics of technology is simple, a perspective that would like to have all the different stakeholders to discuss about the social effect of a technological deployment in society.

43:03 Now we use the example of the highway, concrete and asphalt. What we are looking at now with the algorithm is not anymore concrete and asphalt, but a conditional structure of an algorithm, if this then that is powerful enough to allow someone else to do something and to deny to someone else. So this is where ethics of technology arises.

43:26 And I think that this is one of the most interesting and arguing debates that we should have, in which, and this is the beautiful side of my job, I have the absolute pleasure to bring in the question and to run away before giving any kind of answer. And this is really nice. It's what I love of my job.

43:43 You know, being an ethicist means, well, are we everyone equal in face of this algorithm? And then you run away. No, it's a joke, but just to say it's a nice way to say, because I I'm not uh pretending to have the answer. Because the answer is really complex and has to arise from a plurality approach, from the communion of different understanding, and also from a mediation between different possible positive goals.

44:13 This is the nature of ethics. You know, there was one of my professors that say you don't come out from an ethical choice with clean hands. At one point, you have to choose a compromise, and it's the maximum good that you can have. And this is a little tragic side of our life, human life. We are not God that can make everything.

44:33 We have to take choose. And this is also the knowledge of the limitation of the discipline. It's powerful, it's bringing you to the core question of your life, but it's a voice. Sometimes we need something that is much more solid, and we call it law. And sometimes it's enough to have this simple disquestion because the question can allow people to have a process, and you can have an impact, an indirect impact in the question that you leave to people.

45:00 So this is the limitation of the discipline. This is the amazing, for me that I choose it, nature of ethics and ethics of AI now is simple asking which kind of form of order and displacement of power we would like to have in our contemporary democracy to allow the democracy to remain in such a way.

45:21 Really well put, right? Like these are these are such important questions to be asking. And even if the answer isn't always present, it at least it gets us thinking, right? It gets a discussion going so we can actually consider whether we want certain technologies to be rolled out or how we want them to be rolled out and in what parts of society, what we are collectively okay with, rather than just leaving those decisions or those questions up to very powerful people who lead these tech companies, rather than having these broader conversations, whether it's in churches or religious institutions or in other parts of society that try to exert some power over technology and make sure that it serves

46:01 these human and social uses, right?

46:03 Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But this is a question that is old as the human beings and society, you know. When we invented the oil lamp, the question was the same. And this is the human nature. And that is something really human. And this is why we talk of ethics, that is a humanities, you know. But the object now is not anymore something like a club stick that ends at the end of your hands.

46:28 But when you deploy an algorithm in a giant cloud, the algorithm is not sleeping, is not stopping itself. And so the effect could be simple, multiplied, and be in some way globalized in a way that has an unprecedented time.

46:43 I have a few final questions for you before I let you go. The first is that one of the things that really seems to stand out in Silicon Valley and in these tech communities, especially in the past few years, is this seeming increasing focus on religion, but a religion that kind of fetishizes technology rather than looking to faith or anything like that, that is kind of seen in this effort to try to like create a god through AI, right?

47:09 The when they talk about AGI and superintelligence and this computer that is going to be all-knowing and can do anything. When you hear something like that, is that something considered like heresy? Like this notion of kind of praising the AI God? How do you relate to that as someone who worships a very different kind of God?

47:27 I think that the first threshold that's activating me is the engineer side. And because, you know, as an engineer, I know that a Turing machine can only solve Turing computable problems, and cautions is not a Turing computable problem. So it does not raise up to the fate level, you know? It's simple something that is technically not possible, and I feel really at easy with that.

47:50 Then if one day we develop a computer that is not a Turing machine, well, let's save another podcast and we talk on that, but for now, there is no way of that. So I feel at easy with these uh with these things. Nevertheless, every one of us, this is what the faith remember to me, believe in something.

48:11 If I ask you, do you think that the reality is made by atoms? Probably you say yes because you are really wise and tech guys. Did you see them? Actually, not. You believe in a trustable source. So belief is something in which we work because we cannot have a real first-person experience of everything.

48:35 So I spent a lot of time in my elementary school drawing and painting red mushroom with white dots. Then someone convinced me that it's better to not eat it. I never tried such a kind of mushroom, but I know that they can kill someone, poisoning someone. Well, welcome to the human beings. So we are human beings because we are the ability to have much more knowledge than our instinct and to transmit such kind of knowledge in generation by generation.

49:01 One of the forms of AI that we have today is a knowledge form that gives us answer on our question, but it gives answers in a really different way from the way that we found with, you know, the uh scientific revolution. From the scientific revolution, we found an architectural way to keep the knowledge together.

49:22 You enter in a library and the medicine scaffold has all the knowledge on the medicine. So if during the pandemic someone tells to you, you know, it's enough that if you eat a teaspoon of sugar and you will don't get COVID, you put this notion not in the scaffold of medicine, but in the scaffold, okay, don't let me say bad words, or something else, that does not deserve your attention.

49:45 Now, when you are interacting with uh an AI like an LLM, there is not any more architectural displacement of information, but there is an oracular displacement of information. Well, we miss the training to understand which kind of information deserves to be believed. And here is where we can have some kind of you know blurring in which kind of belief could be understood as a scientific and which one has to be classified as a religious one.

50:15 And I find that a lot of things you are talking about happen in this, you know, uh dusk side of the technology. But once again, it's not a problem of the technology, it's a problem of the human beings that has to be trained to cope and to coexist. Well, I would like to stress the this term, it's time to coexist with this new kind of machine.

50:36 I feel like as we have been talking, right, we've been talking through these important issues in relation to artificial intelligence and digital technology and how we relate to them in the contemporary world. And, you know, I feel like there might be some people who would hear a Pope start to opine on technology and might be not really sure how that relates to, you know, the types of discussions that we're having or might be uncomfortable with seeing kind of the church as an ally in thinking about the role that technology should play in modern society.

51:11 And I wonder what your message would be to people who might be skeptical of seeing the church as an ally or or listening to the types of things that the Pope would have to say on digital technology to maybe help them see the church as another player that is trying to do good with the technology that is present here.

51:30 I agree that it's not time to believe to answer, but it's a good time to ask together a lot of new questions. So until the church is someone that with you is questioning technology, I think that could be something that makes it easy to perceive the church as an alliance. So if I can express with one sentence, the difference is between question mark and exclamation mark.

51:56 Uh we have to, in some way, to be diffident with exclamation mark in this age, and we have to be allied with all the question mark that are around us, because they probably are looking for the truth like every one of us is. And so I think that this is the perspective of the church, to be allied with every man of goodwill that is looking to understand what is the best things that we can do with AI in this contemporary season.

52:20 Then I know people in the church that are biased. Probably there are also people outside the church that are biased. Well, we need time to go over the bias.

52:30 Definitely. You know, I I think I think this is a moment, especially when these tech companies are so powerful, to be looking for allies, you know, where we can find them. And if the church wants to be an ally, even for people who consider themselves more secular, I don't think that should be a relationship that they should be passing up on, right?

52:47 There is no such thing as the intention to bring someone to the mass. This is the point. But to be in the square and asking frankly and honestly, what does it mean? And until we are leaving this, that could be an open space.

52:59 I completely agree. And just to end our conversation, I wanted to come back to this focus on the human at the center of things, right? I feel like right now we have these powerful people who lead these tech companies, some of them who seem to want us to constantly engage with machines, to replace our friends with machines, to see us even become more machine-like when we talk about automation and things like that.

53:23 I was just wondering, you know, as a final reflection, what is the importance of making sure that, you know, we keep that focus on our collective humanity in the face of these pushes to have these technologies proliferate into even more areas of our life?

53:38 Well, I think that the important core point is to not understand uh in a conflictual way the relationship between uh ourselves and the machine. So uh this is the basical element point. If we I understand AI as a competitor of the human beings, I'm in the wrong position. Every time that AI could be an extender or an enhancer of my humanity, I don't think that that would be a problem at all.

54:06 And so if technology is like a mirror that does not allow me to see beyond the wall, beyond the glasses, but just to see myself, it will be a really individualistic life and not really something that my heart will be happy with. There was okay, this is a Jewish way to say it. You know what is the difference between a glass and a mirror?

54:31 A really thin part of silver. So uh sometimes I think that much more than believing it's a matter of economy and you know, making money that transformed the glasses in a mirror, in which you can see just yourself. But every time that we ask to ourselves human about human dignity, social justice, and some global issues like environmental ones, well, I think that we are removing such kind of you know, peel of silver from our glasses.

55:01 I think a good way to put it. And Paolo, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show to dig into all of these important issues with us, especially at a moment where obviously the church has already been engaging in these technology issues, as you're talking about for a very long time, but more specifically on AI and these kind of contemporary issues that we're seeing with it.

55:20 And with a Pope that seems to be clear that he sees this as an important issue that he wants to focus on in his papacy, I don't think that that is going to end anytime soon. And so it's important for us to be considering it. But I really appreciate you taking the time. I appreciate you giving us your perspective on all of this and on the ethics of technology.

55:38 Thank you so much.

55:38 I'm thanking you for all the show that you are going on because it's a really precious moment to, you know, make some question loud voice to share with other humans. Thank you very much for your service.

55:51 Paolo Benanti is an author, academic, and priest who teaches at the Pontifical Gregorian University. Tech Won't Save Us is made in partnership with the Nation magazine and is hosted by me, Paris Marks. Production is by Kyla Hewson. Tech Won's Save Us relies on the support of listeners like you to keep providing critical perspectives on the tech industry.

56:08 You can join hundreds of other supporters by going to patreon.com slash tech won't save us and making a pledge of your own. Thanks for listening, and make sure to come back next week.