Why ADHD Brains Excel at Starting Businesses (And Collapse at Scaling Them)

0:00 I didn't always keep focused, that's the thing. And I was okay with it when I did it. Body doubling was is one of the best strategies that did and still does work for me. And I, you know, in college, grad school, I was always a student who's like, let's get together and write a paper, let's study together, even like let's just do work together.

0:16 Like I wouldn't say I'm extroverted. Sometimes I still need my space, like I'm somewhere in between, but I always did my work with people. I, if I'm not around other adults and I'm home, I have a hard time doing work. I need to be around other adults, either co-workers, friends.

0:29 Hello everybody, and welcome to today's episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. Today I am super excited to be joined by Dr. Jessica McCarthy, the founder and clinical director of Elements Psychological Services. Jessica is a licensed clinical psychologist, a clinical neuropsychologist, and a certified school psychologist who works with both children and adults.

0:53 Her work includes neuropsychological and psychoeducement with particular expertise in ADHD and learning disorders, as well as evidence-based psychotherapy using approaches included in ACT and CBT. Through Elements, Jessica leads a team providing psychological assessment and therapy to children, adults, and families.

1:17 So we're going to be diving specifically into this for adults today. What neuropsychology can teach us about ADHD, how understanding the brain behavior relationship can translate into practical strategies, which we love here. We talk about research all the time. And what adults and business owners can learn about working more effectively with their own cognitive strengths and challenges.

1:37 So welcome, Jessica. It's so great to have you here. Thank you so, so much for having me. Super excited to be here. Yeah, awesome. Before we get into it, as you guys know, speaking of research, we know from the research that people who struggle with ADHD symptoms are more likely to start businesses. It's a great environment, person fit for us, but we struggle with the scaling, you know, building these consistent systems.

2:03 We know from the research that we tend to make less than our neurotypical peers. And our goal here at Unconventional Organization is to break that stereotype. So we have so many resources for you. If you are looking to scale your business or even to start your business, we help with that too. So click the link down below and we'll provide you with teaching, personal support, or operational support, whatever you need.

2:26 Go down there. Okay. Jessica, it's great to have you here today. Thank you so much for having me. Let's dive in. So I want to know, first of all, because you are one of those wonderful people who has ADHD and helps the ADHD community, which I love.

2:41 The irony. The irony, trust me. Sometimes I'm just like, what am I doing? Like who why am I even? But you know, it it works. There's there's the research piece to it, like you're saying, and the the humanity piece to it too, which I think, you know, when done properly can bring a really, really cool, um, different perspective and ways to think about things into the into the therapy space.

3:02 Yeah, 100%. And and you know, it's I I say this. My husband also has ADHD and we run this business together. And every time something ADHD happens, I'm like, well, this is why we have this job, and this is a new piece of research. Exactly new to think about. Exactly. So from you, when did you find out you had ADHD?

3:20 What was that journey like for you?

3:22 Oh gosh. So, you know, I was diagnosed with anxiety since, I don't know, probably the womb, but it wasn't until my after my freshman year in college, and I was like, I was that girl in high school. I was in AP classes, I was student council president, field hockey captain, like, and I made it work, but like I could tell by junior and senior year, it was whatever strategies I had were starting to slip a little bit.

3:46 It wasn't until I almost failed out my freshman year that I realized it wasn't just the anxiety because what was happening was that I didn't know how to study. I was in the gifted and talented. I mean, everyone's probably nodding their heads. I was in gifted and talented, I was like the smart kid. I never had to learn how to study.

4:05 I always just kind of figured it out and like made it work enough, or was just like, I'm not good at it. But after a 1.67, I was like, all right, like I gotta, I gotta figure this out. But it, I figured out, I got lucky. I got figured out, I figured out strategies that worked. I managed my anxiety a little bit better.

4:21 But then when I started grad school, it was kind of the same thing. And I was in therapy when I was in school for my doctorate. And the therapist said to me, She's like, Is it possible that you have ADHD? And I remember this like yesterday. I was like, ew, no, like, ugh, no, I'm not like the kid who was disruptive and the class clown.

4:40 And then I thought about it some more and I'm like, she might be on to something. But I still really didn't do anything about it until I had reading more of the research and and kind of had my own, like, okay, Jess, like this is what's going on. It's it's not these other things. I asked my primary, um, who actually was my childhood best friend, and she's like, This is news to you.

5:03 I'm like, yeah, it is. Like, thanks for the heads up. And then I started medication probably three or four years ago at this point. And it's, you know, it's trial and trial and error in terms of which meds work, which meds are available, which meds are covered by insurance. But, you know, but here we are.

5:18 Here we are. Yeah, 100%. It's such a journey. And I'm glad to hear you say that. You know, I got diagnosed later in life because I was starting my PhD and I just went to my university and said, What's happening? Please just, you know, do any. And then so they were like, you need to get tested for ADHD.

5:36 I actually had a hard time. I realized that writing reports, like my neuropsych reports and assessment reports, because there's so many pieces to them, it felt incredibly overwhelming just to start. And that's what that was kind of the smoking gun that was like, all right, Jessica, like this, this, yeah, you need to start addressing this.

5:56 Yeah, 100%. I found out that I didn't finish sentences. They were like, oh, look at that. You don't even use start. And then yeah, really.

6:03 I do that when I'm talking, because my brain is already like light years ahead, and the words are not, the words don't catch up. And now I just laugh about it, but it was it was embarrassing back then because it looks like I'm stumbling over my words.

6:16 Because you're in this environment. I mean, you went on to get, you became a licensed clinical psychologist, which I studied uh pre-clinical, so I understand a little bit of that process. A clinical neuropsychologist, I studied neuroscience into post-grad, again, understand, and a certified school psychologist.

6:33 I have no nothing to say there. But I am interested in like, that's a lot of study. How did you keep focused doing all of that?

6:40 Well, so I didn't always keep focused. That's the thing. And I was okay with it when I didn't, right? I just kind of lead into that. And then the fear kicked in on the procrastination side. But body doubling was is one of the best strategies that did and still does work for me. And I've, you know, in college, grad school, I was always a student who's like, let's get together and write a paper, let's study together, even like let's just do work together.

7:07 Like I wouldn't say I'm extroverted because sometimes I still need my space, like I'm somewhere in between, but I always did my work with people. And it's interesting. Like the days I might work from home or I'm divorced now. I've been divorced for almost six years. I, if I'm not around other adults and I'm home, I have a hard time doing work.

7:24 I need to be around other adults, either coworkers, friends. I don't body double with my kids like that. I wish that would be nice, but you know, also maybe a little inappropriate. Like, you do your thing, guys. Let me help you and let me be a mom and I'll focus on myself. And I, you know, people told me I couldn't.

7:41 So that was the other thing. Someone told me I couldn't. And I'm like, all right, well, now I have to prove you wrong with a vengeance, and then I'm gonna start a business on it. So, you know, go pound salt. Along the way, I figured out strategies. I learned how to break down writing my papers. Like literally one day I would be like, open up a Word document and write title here, name here, date of paper.

8:02 You don't have your header and footer, header here, footer here, abstract page, reference page. And before I knew it, I'm like, oh, I have six pages done, even though I didn't have content. But it it was such a like the minutiae I realized I have to break things down so much. Visual planners, all the things that we talk about with our ADHD clients now, like I just kind of figured out because trying to keep it in my head was too much of a cost.

8:24 I am horrible with a day-to-day planner. And if I don't see it, it doesn't exist. So it and I got I got I got lucky, to be honest, outside of having like professional help from an ADHD lens. That's when I realized I wanted to help people to have a similar journey to mine that that might not be so lucky with figuring it out.

8:44 Yeah, it sounds like you had that persistence part of ADHD we sometimes see in the qualitative research down. And yeah, that working memory will get you. You gotta gotta break it down.

8:54 It's still one of my struggles to this day, but I just I work with it. And like you said, I I have a business. So in some ways it's easier to navigate some of them, but sometimes it's harder because who's over me? Who's like keeping me on the straight and narrow? Um, I always joke, my practice manager, that's her, that is her job.

9:12 And I just listen to her at this point because she will she will kick my butt around if if necessary. But it's it's it's a good mix. I'm I'm lucky to have good people that I work with, a team that's here on both the clinical side and the admin side.

9:25 Yeah, good people are super important. Do you before we close out the study part, if you could go back now, what is the advice that therapist Jessica would give to student Jessica?

9:36 I think the first thing would be like she needs a hug. Like she needs a big hug and she needs to know that like it's gonna be okay. Even if I didn't go in this direction, when you spend so much time trying to do something that other people can do in less time, when you're feeling the pressure that like your worth is in your performance, I would tell her that that's not the case.

10:02 And just because you do it differently than others doesn't make it wrong. I mean, I was at the point, and I was doing this even when I had my younger babies and I was studying for my licensing exam. I would go to bed at like 7:30 or 8 o'clock when they did. I would get up at 3 a.m. to do work. I'm one of those where I work a little differently.

10:21 I don't like to stay up, although sometimes I it's tough when I have a hard time falling asleep. But if I could get up at three or four o'clock every morning and do work, I would. And some days I would. I would work for like five hours in the morning before my kids got up or I had to go to work. Emails, writing, anything would be done then.

10:37 And then I wouldn't look at my computer again until the next day. And I felt weird for that because no one else was doing it. So I would tell her, it's okay. It's okay that your brain is wired differently. It's okay that you might need different strategies and you're going to be okay, even in those moments where you feel like no one understands you and and and it's not and it's not going to work out.

11:01 Yeah, no, I love that. I think it's super important because you know, there's always a there's always a student listening to this who gets something from that. So that's awesome. If you are the business owner who is growing, your operations and delivery are growing, and you're starting to feel pretty overwhelmed, like you're not getting enough time, you're struggling with consistency, and you'd really like somebody else to get it all out of your head and project manage it for you.

11:26 That's what we do. We are fractional operators for your business designed for ADHD symptoms. We take it out of your head, we set it all up for you, and you just kind of watch. It's pretty, pretty fun. Click the links down below, and if you're interested, you can book a call with me. So now let's talk about starting a business.

11:45 So you start a business, that is what we talk about so much here. We talk about the research behind it, the strategies behind it, we go deep. We did an episode yesterday on the importance of transparency and leadership as well as trust to support your working memory. So, you know, that's kind of what we talk about.

12:02 I want to know from you, what were the push and pull factors that led you to start a business?

12:08 Like it was never like a goal of mine. Like I would have been very, very, maybe I would have been, I don't know. I was, I had what I thought I wanted. I was working like 15, 20 hours at another group practice. I had two young kids, you know, in full disclosure now, I was not happy in my marriage. I was not happy in my life.

12:25 And it was right before COVID hit. I remember leaving the office and sitting in my car and being like, something in my life has to give. And then COVID happened a month later. So I'm really sorry for that. But it was, it was actually COVID that was the catalyst for for me being like, I need to start a business because I knew I was getting divorced and I needed to be able to make more money.

12:46 So I was very passionately hyper focused, like truly on survival. And having to be able to support my my children at the time were five and three. So it, you know, I can't sit here and be like, I did it because of how my brain was wired. Like it truly, it truly was survival. And for a year, that first year and a half, you know, like between moving, finalizing the divorce, getting my kids settled, you know, growing the business, I was, I mean, the, the, the hyper focus never turned off.

13:19 And like, honestly, there's probably a little bit of trauma mixed in there too. But I also had a friend of mine who was starting a business at the same time. So I was able to body double with her. I've met colleagues along the way that like we all help each other because it's it could be lonely owning a business.

13:33 And whereas an area that might have been a weakness of mine was a strength for someone else and vice versa. So like, let's do this together. And it, you know, once kind of the the hyper focus and and like the the adrenaline of the trauma kind of wore off, that's when I kind of started to struggle. Well, not kind of, pretty big time because my super, the super juices were gone.

13:55 Now I'm like, oh, okay, I have to do this with a like normally functioning brain. And then once, once the bottom kind of fell out there and I realized I can't handle my email, I can't handle the callbacks because my kids need to be more. I'm seeing clients, I need to hire, I need to hire an admin. I just did it, which I know like might not always be the best advice, but having been in therapy for the anxiety piece for a really, really long time, you know, I've kind of internalized the message.

14:23 You can feel one way and still do something else. So I've gotten very good at not necessarily letting my emotions dictate how I make moves. The the ADHD piece comes into play when I have a hard time starting a task, make, you know, like I said, right checking the email, doing an admin thing, whatnot.

14:43 Um, and it's something I can't necessarily outsource out to someone else on my team. I still struggle with that. And I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it as long as like the bills are getting paid and the business is going in the direction. It doesn't, you know, I've had to let go of some of the perfectionism of I'm gonna be the perfect boss, I'm gonna do this, I my team can't see vulnerability.

15:03 They they see it all too because I want them to know how hard I'm working for them. And also, this is something I might need help with because it's just not my strong suit. Can anyone pitch in and help? And it's and it's it's worked out a very unconventional way of starting. But I know I'm not the only person out there who's faced a major life challenge in one way or the other and says, I need to pivot because this old life wasn't working anyway.

15:28 So let's just burn it all to the ground and start over in a way that works well with my brain and for what I need in my life. And look, unconventional is what we do here.

15:37 So you're in good company. I'm in the right place. Yeah, you're in the right place. I'm curious that if we dive in a little bit to the struggles of running a business with an ADHD brain. You said you hired people and I hear of that all the time. But what were the things that really felt like nope to you when it came to business?

15:59 You mean in terms of like what I outsourced or like the nope, I can't outsource, I have to do it. Was it sourcing?

16:04 Um Yeah, I'm guessing like, you know, the first the usual suspects like taxes and you know, I still do, I do well, yes.

16:12 Well, I do that, but I mean, I have a great accountant and a great attorney who also happen to be very good friends of mine from high school. So I they I and I still worry about money. Like I I am I don't have the best relationship with money because sometimes it's like I overspend growing the business.

16:28 I underspend here. How am I keeping on track of stuff? So, like getting the right people to manage not just the financial, but like the legal aspect. Hey, read this contract for me, please. I like I'm not reading a 20-page contract for a lease or for this or for that. Like, to me, that's money well spent because then I'm not, I'd rather pay that ADHD tax up front instead of having to pay to fix something down the road.

16:49 Callbacks were a big problem because what would have been like like, you know, especially when people are like, oh, I got Dr. McCarthy on the phone, then they want to talk and then I feel bad, and then we're getting into it, and I've lost track of time, and then they may or may not book. So it's not that it wasn't a waste of time, but I had to teach myself from a business standpoint, you need to have a little bit more structure around how you're protecting your time and how you're investing in time.

17:14 Not even using it, but just I see it as an investment. No, I still, like I said, I handle the financials for the most part, I handle the legal stuff, but it's it's the callbacks, it's managing my schedule. That is probably the biggest monster because, like I said previously, I'm divorced and I do have majority custody.

17:30 My schedule with my kids is not the same every week. So, and I travel back and forth between two different locations. Three if I also count like a day I work from home. So, where am I which days with my kids' schedule, which literally has eight different schedules merged onto it? I finally have had to fully embrace a digital calendar, which I hate, but there's just too it it reached the point where it was too much.

17:53 But yeah, anything like in my email, any paperwork, any contract, any callback, any anything that honestly, if it felt, I've learned to trust myself. If this feels like this is taking too much time, it gets it gets outsourced. Or some things just don't get done. I go through spurts, especially if we're managing social media.

18:13 I have a page for the practice and I have my own page. There are days, weeks, months where like I'm on fire. There are times where I'm like, this is too much. I have had people help with social media in the past, but sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, in terms of translating what I want up here, out there.

18:29 But I don't stress that. Okay, that part doesn't get done. But other than that, if if I can hire announcers, I have someone with my Google SEO, I have someone help with my website. Although that took two years to finish because I had to do the copy. I did hire two people to do it, but it, and not even like it was good at wasn't good enough, like on being a perfectionist.

18:48 It needed to have the voice that I wanted for the practice and for the message. So that was a I had to do that, but that still took almost two years. I'm a very patient web developer. But yeah, if it's not something I'm not good at or I'm not interested in getting good at, it's off my plate.

19:02 And I think that's really important, like ruthless focus on your 20% that's gonna give you your 80% return and your non-negotiables is really how you grow because there's a ton of things that's on that are on the would-be nice column. The would-be nice column will stretch into next year if you let it.

19:21 And a lot of people that we talk to will spend a lot of time organizing the back end of their second drawer and they're not actually getting the thing done that they need to get done.

19:31 Yeah. I have I have been there, although think I'm I think I'm now at the point where like the to-do list, it's there's a lot on it, and a lot of it's time sensitive. My drawers, my drawers are a hot mess, and I'm okay with that because it's not it's not the priority. Honestly, it's a sign of a good business.

19:46 If you're well, if that's the case, then my apartment would also reflect of that because that's that reaches like hot mess status when I now have a almost 12-year-old and a nine-year-old, and we all have kind of varying degrees of what our brain strengths are, and not one child is good with putting away clothes, another child has a brain very similar to mine, and it's a disaster.

20:05 And it's a fine line between like I want to teach my kids right the right skills and and and systems, but I also want to normalize, like, hey, if you're not the kid who's great at putting your clothes away, like that's okay, but like what's the bare minimum? So you don't tell me I can't find my soccer jersey or my field hockey thing.

20:21 Like, I'm not hearing that. We got that's the bare minimum. We gotta be able to find stuff regardless of where it is.

20:26 Yeah, 100%. 100%. So before we dive into, you know, systems, I'm curious for you, uh, just because this is something we work with the clients who are in in the same field as you. So what is the what is the electronic health record system you use? What is the calendar? Is it all in one place? Do you know this information?

20:46 You know what's interesting?

20:48 I miss paper charting because for me, I got to do it in session. I could write, I could maintain eye contact. There's not distracting of the click, click, click. Um, I am more behind on paperwork now with an EHR than not. But the flip side of it is that I don't even like the calendar on my EHR, but it serves its purpose and it merges with external calendars, which is helpful because I keep all of my kids and sports and girls, whatever activities, life on my Google calendar and my EHR merges over in a HIPAA compliant way.

21:24 So I at least know when appointments are and like when I can do stuff and not. And I I the parts I do like about my AEHR are good for my patients. Like we pay for like the premium package, so it sends our patients email and text message or voice note message. Like there's an automated voice message that one patient still gets reminders when they schedule their appointment, if there's still paperwork to do, 48 hours before the appointment, 24 hours, 10 or 15 minutes.

21:56 Um, so there are multiple touch points. Like that's probably my favorite feature. Of of how we're managing information. But the documentation, I think, for my brain anyway, make what has been spun as it's efficient and click, click, click, click, click. No, that doesn't work, but it's a beast that we have to deal with.

22:16 I'm curious if you're on therapy notes or on something else. I know a lot of people, like Kara mentioned she was on therapy notes, but it is it is interesting the difference because what we're experiencing now in the digital age is that the working memory that we talked about before, the time blindness, it's a lot harder to remember something.

22:36 When you have a stack of papers sitting on your desk, you have a full external cue all the time. This is how much work I have to do. You have both a time cue and a, you know, a working memory reminder in one stack of papers. And when that stack of papers becomes digital, I just click away the reminder.

22:57 And I, as a matter of fact, I make it exist not fairly frequently. I use simple practice. There's pros and there's pros and cons. A friend of mine actually maybe use like a like a kind of a report writing software, and he's building out. If he listens to this, and I might have to send this to him to remind him, he's building out an EHR component to it that I have given him like very specific feedback on because I also run a little bit of a different practice.

23:23 I run a therapy therapy piece and the neuropsych piece, and the charting needs around that are very, very different. So there's no one system out there that can do it best, to be honest. Like someone sent me a like a code for like a free couple of months. And my friend who was starting a practice in St.

23:42 Like, there was no fancy decision making around how I landed here. But now that I'm all in and I'm like, oh, if I ever have to switch, it's gonna be a colossal pain. But you know who's gonna do it? My practice manager. So, and and whomever, and if I end up moving it, if I my friend builds out his system, I'm like, I'm not doing a thing, guys.

23:59 Have fun. This is what y'all are getting paid for. Let me know if this gets to DEF COM 10. And even then, am I am I really the one you need to know? Unless it's impacting flow or like, you know, there's a major, major issue. But other than that, I'm not the one.

24:12 Yeah, no, totally. I I really appreciate that. Yeah, one of our clients works in, like I said, a similar space to you, and we are deep in the intake space right now. And it is so interesting working with the practice manager about that flow. So I'm curious about your practice manager. We've talked a little bit about systems and how they work for ADHD.

24:32 How, how did you find her? What was it? What is it about her that is amazing? Because so often I say to clients, like, the person you hire doesn't should not be like you.

24:42 And I'm guessing this is No, no, she doesn't have ADHD. She is neurotypical. I would I she would be chuckling. Well, she knows her name almost comes up on every podcast that I do. So she actually used to work in healthcare prior to coming with me. She worked at Memorial Sun Kettering in New York City.

25:02 So she had experience with navigating patients. She had experience navigating an EHR, not mine, but like she understood healthcare. So that really, really helped. And she really, most importantly, was like was willing to ride the waves with me. That I mean, I literally, she started and I had to have eye surgery like two weeks afterwards.

25:27 And I was like, well, I I can't see. So I guess you're like you're running things. And I had had the practice for a few, you know, three years at that point. So I was like pretty confident with what I had done. I had had a virtual assistant prior to that, but like I needed someone in front of me. I needed, I need to see you.

25:44 I need to not feel you, that would be weird. Weird in an HR violation, but like I need to be in the same space with you at least exactly at least a couple days a week just to be able to get you quicker. Then let me get you on the phone. But like I I take, I pride, I treat my staff how I would want to be treated as an employee.

26:04 And my practice manager had she has a one-year-old now. Like, so when she was out on leave and I actually had one of my college externs fill in for her, I'm like, well, I guess we're gonna see if the systems and and the workflow that we put into place translates. And it did. So I'm like good news is that the ship can run.

26:22 Um, it doesn't run like it does with with Jackie. She knows that, and she knows like what she brings to the practice. It's like we when she's out, it's like, I'm like, oh no, like please. But she just she is she is patient and she is kind and she is and she is good to me. She is good to our, you know, the the people that we service.

26:42 And she's willing, most importantly, she is willing to push back on me if I'm behind, like I'm behind on a report and she's on me for it. And she wasn't, she wasn't like that in the beginning. She was a little nervous. She's like, you can be intense and intimidating. I said, I'm aware, but like we're gonna have to get past that.

27:01 And once I told her, I'm like, I this is what I need you to do, then she's good. She'll she'll tell me if you're like, she's like, nope, I think you're steering into rough waters, or she'll give me the green light. She's willing to try stuff, but she's she she really has like my best interest as a human in her and for that of the practice.

27:18 And I, and that's kind of the culture around here is that we're people first, we're all parents. That if we can't come to work and focus one way or the other, whether it's because we're having Jackie handle stuff or kids are good, then nothing gets done, nothing gets done well. So yeah, yeah.

27:35 No, I really, really, I really like that. You know, we've recently started specializing in hiring Jackies because it's don't you dare try to take her on a I will get on an airplane to New Zealand.

27:48 I've done the flight, I'll bring her back.

27:51 She she knows. No, no, no, not headhunting. No, no, no, absolutely not. But but it we have, we've had to start doing it ourselves for some clients because it's so difficult. And people will be like, Don't you worry, I have a friend of a friend's cousin, they're gonna sort it out. And I'm like, I have to be like, no, no, no, no, no.

28:11 We have to do test first hiring, we have to do a whole thing because you are gonna hire somebody that you want to hang out with and have a chat, and then no one's gonna get any work done. It's so it's funny you say that.

28:22 My first hire was her name's Dr. Jessica Bajoli. She and I worked at Columbia at the New York State Psychiatric Institute together almost 20 years ago. I was a research manager, I was doing my master's, and she was, I'm not sure how newly licensed she was. She was licensed for a few years. We worked in the anxiety disorders clinic, and she always used to joke, she's like, You work for me, even though I didn't.

28:45 But she was older than me. I looked up to her. She was licensed, she was what I wanted to be. We we had a beautiful friendship, and she didn't live that far away from me after you know, we became big, big boys and girls and had families. And she had a private practice in Manhattan, and then she had one in New Jersey.

29:01 And I said to her, I'm like, maybe you can come work for me someday, big dog. And then she actually did. And it's worked out. I mean, that we've had some bumps because it's sometimes hard when you hire friends, but she's been with me for a few years now. And when we were hiring Jackie, it was between actually, someone fell through because they ghosted us, so which was a good thing.

29:20 And then that Jackie applied, and it was between Jackie and a younger candidate who was getting ready to go to grad school. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you were me like 10 years ago. Like, I'm gonna hire you and teach you the ropes. And Jessica was like, to me, Jessica, she's like, don't hire the person who's gonna leave in a couple of years.

29:36 The writing's on the wall. Like, yes, she would be great at at all the things, but but look at what Jackie has and what she already has experience in. So like I was distracted by like the bright, shiny thing of like, this is me, I'm gonna teach you everything, even though it would have been at detriment to my business because the writing was on the wall that she was gonna be leaving.

29:56 No, so sometimes it's it's I have had to get better, even if it feels icky, of really trying to get out of my own way and hear what someone is saying. And even if I don't do anything with it, like I wasn't happy when Jessica made that suggestion to me at first. Cause I'm like, I'm gonna do what I want to do.

30:12 And then I'm like, you know what? Sometimes that doesn't work out. Like, what let's get curious about like what option is here and like the the the obvious strengths of it, and it and it worked out. So I've I've really gotten good at listening to people because quite frankly, sometimes listening to myself has led me down tricky places.

30:32 So, but that's also taught me forgiveness and it has taught me on like what where are the things that I need to start trusting myself on and learn a little bit more about myself and what drives my decision making so I can make better decisions.

30:45 Yeah, it's it's so interesting that difference. I mean, I think we have that sense of, you know, often the person that we want to hire, there's that dopamine behind it. You're like, this is a really dopamine field hire. And the person we need to hire, the person that we're gonna be like, I can't imagine living without this person in two years from now, is not the dopamine field hire because it's kind of like that that person that you're like, oh, you're stable and you're gonna be consistent and this is gonna be great, and you're gonna ask me the questions I don't want to hear, and that's what I need.

31:16 Yeah, and I was still like that.

31:17 The practice was still young. Like we had we were hiring our first in-person person. So, like, I was still, I mean, I still am. I'm until the day I close this practice, I'm gonna say I'm coming at this with a beginner's mind and always learning because every year I feel like I learn more. But just Dr.

31:32 Bajoli, Jessica, had had a practice for a decade already. She knew. And she said, like, listen, she was like, listen to me. I guess that we've known each other for a while. And as much as I wanted to be like, err, I'm like, you know what? She's not wrong. She's not wrong. And I'm gonna give her a chance to prove her wrong because she makes good points that I can't argue.

31:52 And if I really sit back and think about what I'm doing, I love to teach, I love to mentor. I don't necessarily need to do that in this way in my practice with the person that I literally need to be the backbone of the practice. That's not where the learning is gonna go. I need someone I can just take it and run, especially with the speed that we run, that that we run and things run here.

32:12 Yeah, yeah. No, 100%. And then, and then on the other side, and you mentioned this before, so I want to, you know, just pull on that thread. You mentioned that you tried to hire people in marketing, but the messaging, it just didn't sound like you. And I hear that all the time because sometimes we'll get to the stage where we want that consistent growth and we'll be like, right, it's time to hire somebody who comes up with really unique ideas and has a direction.

32:36 And it's like, hey, that's you. You have ADHD. That's literally in the textbook as a strength of yours. Maybe we need to hire the person who's gonna make sure the posts go out consistently on Wednesdays at five. You know, that kind of energy as well.

32:51 That is that is what I would love. But then that also means that I would need to accurately follow my marketing and social media plan and give them like the content or approve it. Like that I'm still in there in a point where I would need to be removed from it. And um, that I'm not entirely willing to give up yet.

33:13 But I think it's also that I haven't found someone, and I have trialed a couple people, in fairness, that I can take that and trust with the messaging or trust with the editing. Like I don't want to see, you know, a silly edit. I mean, there's some forgiveness around that, but like when it happens multiple times, that that's a pattern.

33:29 That's different than a one-off. For we're six and a half years old. I feel like I'm still learning the identity of the practice as we're growing and trying to think and be strategic about the directions I want to grow in and how can we service the communities around us and not just strengthen, you know, similar to like we think about from like a neuropsych assessment, not just be aware of our strengths and like the areas we we need to grow, but how are you doing both simultaneously in a way that feels clinically fulfilling and minimizes burnout with your staff?

34:01 And from a business standpoint, is what the people in our community need and and and can access too. So that's I'm not ready to get rid of that yet.

34:12 One of these days, the consistent growth. You've nailed getting your time back, and now we're working on consistent growth. But that's that is such a journey. It is, it is definitely amazing. Well, I have a question for you then, you know, like as you go through this, you've also worked specifically with people who have ADHD.

34:31 So I want to give some love to that before we before we have to head off today. And I want to ask you, like, what do you think? If you could, if you could tell, not your clients, but like if you could tell people that you've worked with who have ADHD the thought that you're thinking, you know, as you're writing it down, and you just wish you could just say it.

34:49 Like, what is that thing that you'd want to say to people?

34:53 I usually do that yeah, holding back is not my strong suit in practice. No, it's it's not, it's not. I mean it's literally in my bio. Like that's that's not, I won't solve a problem for you. I'm adamant about that. Um, thing I want to convey is like you might be successful on paper, but what is the cost?

35:11 What have you had to lose or give up or sacrifice to get there? Because look, especially owning a business, and even if you're not a business owner, you just have a very intense job, there's sacrifice. But is that sacrifice what we would consider in the normal realm? Or are you sacrificing in in ways, in your energy, your time, how you're processing that that are above and beyond what would be considered, I don't even want to be considered normal, but it's it's not working for you because someone's normal can be different from someone else's.

35:41 But when the cost is too high because the systems are not efficient, or if honestly, if it's something you don't even want to be doing, the passion's not there. You know, there really needs to be alignment with are you curious of this? Are you are you passionate about this? Um, can you can you stay engaged with this for time?

36:01 Is there flexibility in how you can and how you can do things? And what is the what is the the the cost of of how you're doing things and is it making it to the point? I always say, is the juice worth the squeeze? Another way of saying it.

36:16 Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I think that's so important. Well, I just have a few questions that I like to ask everybody. So, what would you consider to be your biggest professional achievement?

36:28 I think, especially as a single mom with ADHD, I think it is this. I think it was taking, you know, growing a practice at a really hard time in my life while my brain was learning about itself and having to rebuild and, you know, work on healing myself and raise two little girls at the same time. Because not only do I have a, you know, this amazing thing that we as a team are growing here, like I've been able to tell my girls that if something doesn't work out in life or it doesn't work out the way you think, then you can change, you can shift.

37:05 And sometimes there's gonna be a lot of discomfort in that shift because the brain does not like change. The brain likes when we when we keep the same thing up. Well, most brains, I should say. That's a that's a broad statement, but um it's it's it's the pivot, right? And sometimes we need to pivot because life gets really, really funky.

37:22 Sometimes we maybe need to get curious about a pivot if there's nothing bad happening, there's no divorce or whatever, but like this is not, it's not, it's not working because it's not fulfilling. That's that's so important, is being able to sit with the discomfort that comes with the thought of pivoting.

37:40 Why are we pivoting? Is this impulsivity or is this a real necessary change? Can we slow down and create a little bit of space around that decision making? And think about what the barriers are that might come up for you. And let's take a look historically about how did you do in school? How did you do not even grade-wise or performance, but how did you get how did you get stuff done in school, in work?

38:04 How did you manage your time? How did you organize information? I always ask people, what did your locker look like? What's your backpack look like? That's gonna tell me more than like a lot of stuff. Um, but that that it's okay to pivot and like let's get curious about that discomfort. Um, and if I didn't, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have the life, which is still a work in progress, it will be every day that I that I do now.

38:27 Yeah, no, I love that. And on the other side, what would you consider to be your greatest professional failure or embarrassment? And how did you deal with that?

38:35 So working memory strikes again. So when I got divorced, I McCarthy is my maiden name. I went back to my maiden name. And speaking of EHRs, um, it took a minute after the divorce was finalized. I had to change everything with the licensing board and whatnot. And I couldn't update my EHR until that was done.

38:51 And I'm like, Sid, I should have just put a note on my like bulletin board, but I couldn't because my patients didn't know I was getting divorced. I was still trying to figure, figure that out. Although a couple people did notice because I wasn't wearing my wedding ring, and one of them was a realtor and he saw my house was for sale, and I was just kind of blowing it off.

39:11 And juggling too many tasks, and the only thing I thought of was update the EHR, update the EHR. I never thought about the consequences of it because I had too much in my mind. I finally got the paperwork from the state, updated my last name in the EHR, and a system that I put into place backfired because my system automatically sends out the Superbills once a month without me even thinking about it.

39:35 That that update happened two days after I updated my name and still had like was still just getting ready to have conversations with patients, some of whom I started getting calls at 9:30 at night on the work line. Who is Dr. McCarthy? Why is my Superbill say Dr. McCarthy? Because it went out to the entire practice.

39:55 I was like, one hand, I was relieved. I'm like, well, I guess I don't have to figure out how I have to do this because it was a genuine mistake, but it, you know, it I had some damage control to do. And like everyone, nobody was like that upset, but there were concerns like, are you gonna move away? Are you leaving?

40:12 Are you, you know, what's gonna happen with this? And I'm like, well, you know, I had I had to get a little honest that I actually built this because I knew this was coming. So it there were, there were, you know, some consults I had to do like with colleagues, peers about like appropriate self-disclosure around it, because like I kind of blew it up for myself.

40:30 But it actually did lead, once we got past the scariness, it led to some very fruitful conversations and really a way to model that like I can make a mistake too. And and how, and how do we, how do we troubleshoot? Like it's not, it's not the problems in life that are the problems, what we do with it.

40:47 So there was a lot of acceptance and be like, well, yeah, I am. And for the person that I have been lying to, I said I wasn't ready to yet. And that that's my information to share. Like, I understand your curiosity, but like, too bad. So yeah, yeah. That was awesome. That moment I was like, oh no, oh no, please tell me this.

41:05 That I but I knew I I knew what had happened. The system, the system, the system failed, the system failed. Because I had been sending out the super bills automatically, but that's like Jessica, just trust the system, reduce the working memory, and then I I forgot that part.

41:21 Oops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The working memory, yeah, it's a whole thing. And then my other question is, you know, if you had a quote, something that you say to yourself, you might say to other people that you wanted to share, what would that be?

41:35 Took me a minute to think about this because I'm not like a huge like rely on a quote person, at least not consciously, but what's always come back to me over the last few years is run my own race. Uh, when I see other businesses that I either, you know, there's they're either competition or just like I see other businesses doing something that either I, oh, I wish I thought about that, or even worse, I wanted to do that, but I didn't get a chance to do it yet, either because I dropped that ball, I didn't outsource it, or it just is something that I need to, I don't have the capacity to take on right now because I am running a business and I am a single mom with ADHD.

42:16 So that my journey is going to look different from someone else's. I mean, all of our journeys are gonna look different. That's what I have to remind myself too. But especially being down one adult in the home, it absolutely impacts how how much flexibility I have. And I outsource a lot of that too. And I have wonderful friends and family that do help.

42:36 But at the end of the day, it is still I am outnumbered on any given day. So I have to remind myself, take a deep breath. This is not you versus everyone else, and this is not even you versus you. This is your journey, your pace. It's going to look different at different times, and that is okay.

42:52 I love that. I love that one. Amazing. Well, so wonderful to have you, Jessica. Thank you so much. Tell everybody where they can find you.

43:02 So the name of our practice is Elements Psychological Services. We are located in New Jersey in the United States, and we have a practice in northern New Jersey in Montvale, which is in Bergen County, and we have a second location in Chatham, which is like north central New Jersey in Morris County. We are on Instagram at elements underscore psych.

43:22 And my Instagram is dr.jessica.mccarthy, but I think you can just type my name in and it'll and it'll come up. And that's where that's where we live digitally.

43:32 Amazing, amazing. So please go and check her out, guys. This is a wonderful, wonderful. I know there's gonna be a lot of information there that you're really gonna enjoy.

43:41 And if you are a business, we just did our website up. So come to our website. It was two years in the making, so come check it out.

43:46 Please check it out for the web designer. Awesome. Yeah, and if you are a business owner and you want that consistent growth that we've been talking about, then you can go ahead, click the link down below. We've got a lot of different resources for you. Some are free, some are paid. Whatever you need, we've got you.

44:03 So um check it out below. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. If you liked it, leave us a five star review. It helps other people learn more about us. And thank you so much to our wonderful team for making us sound good, look good, couldn't do it without you.