Alissa Pollack

Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My guest today is radio maven, Alyssa Pollack. Alyssa. Hi, Bob. What exactly is your title?

My title is president of media base and global music marketing.

Okay. This year, they changed your title. So how did your duties change?

So my duties didn't change drastically because I have been with MediaBase for about 32 years. But basically, it was an elevation from the standpoint of we're very excited about some of the things we want to do to expand the product. So it was just a new title, but a lot of the duties will be the same.

And the other half, the marketing part.

The global music marketing. I have a unique role at iHeart in that I actually span two divisions.

That's why I didn't come up with a title. It was so long, I didn't know I could remember it. Okay, continue.

So I am actually on two sides. So on one side, I have been with MediaBase for 32 years, and I have been overseeing all the sales with the record labels. I've been a big part of building that product since it was on floppy disk. And then on the iHeart side, I do all of our custom brand artist partnerships and music strategy. So what that means is when Verizon or Pepsi or a major brand comes to iHeart and wants to do something that involves an artist, my team is the team that works with them first. to put together the programs, identify the artists, negotiate the deals, and make sure it gets executed. And those would be outside of the tentpole events. So I do anything custom.

Just for you, we want to make everything clear. What would be a tentpole event?

A tentpole event would be iHeart Festival or Jingle Ball. So if an advertiser wants to do something integrated within those events... That's another team. But if it's outside of those events and it's then it's my team and we do everything that isn't associated with a big concert or a big I heart programming initiative.

OK, do you execute or do you beat the bushes for deals, too?

I do all of it. So I start with a very data-focused. So I'm sure at some point we'll get into a conversation about my history with data. But I have been part of all of the data systems, the music data systems of the industry my entire career. So I realized at a certain point that when brands are looking to partner with artists, it became very subjective. And so people would say, well, my cousin's neighbor's dog walker doesn't like this artist and therefore we're going to pass on this deal. And I would be like, oh, please don't pass on this. But as data became such a bigger thing in the industry and more available, I realized that if we can productize that and when we go to a brand and recommend an artist, if we can

provide them with the information that says, here's all the reasons why you should absolutely consider this artist and why they make sense for your audience and where the crossover is, It's a much better way of doing this, so it takes out the subjectivity. So that's what I've been doing for a long time. So I typically will take the data.

I will recommend them. The artists, I think, make sense based on across affinity with their fan bases and or their users and the demo they're trying to hit. And then once we decide on who the target is, I'll go out and then negotiate the deal from soup to nuts and then get the contracts done, negotiate the price, and then help execute the entire thing.

Okay. Let's– does somebody in the iHeart team come to you and say, Alyssa, we think we want to be in partnership, Pepsi, Verizon, or do you actually say, hmm, let me go out to Fortune 500 companies and see if I can make a deal?

So– traditionally, it's the first. All of our sales team, my function was set up as a support to the sales team. So typically, they're the ones having those conversations and bringing opportunities to me and my team. That being said, because I still work so closely with all the labels on their rollout strategies and their marketing across the board, a lot of times when I'm in a conversation with an artist, a label, the manager, whoever it is, I will hear that they're looking for opportunities. And in that case, I will try and be as proactive I can, whether that's me directly trying to reach out and put something together.

But more often, I might take that to our sales team, help them package it up and see if we could proactively find a sponsor that wants to partner.

OK, on the surface, these are two different verticals. Do they merge or you basically want half your brain is doing this and the other half is doing that?

Well, that was the interesting thing. They're technically two separate things, but because I married the data piece of it into the other piece, I find it to be perfectly synergistic. And I think it's actually what gives us an advantage when we're doing these deals because being able to provide such, you know, in-depth data and insights and expertise in recommending these artists to the brands, I think is actually a superpower of ours. Oh, sorry. I was going to say, one of the things I love to talk about that I think is also an advantage that we bring to the table is the emerging artists. Because not every brand has the seven or eight figure budget that they need to go out. Everyone wants to be with Sabrina Cartman

or with Taylor Swift, but that's just not a reality for most people's budgets. So because we're so data focused and because we have our finger on the pulse of who's next, a lot of times I can recommend to a brand, have trust. We know that this artist, by the time your media runs or by the time this campaign actually begins, this person, you won't even be able to afford them anymore. And we've had a lot of great success with that because we're able to get them in with the right artist at the right time. And then they can get to ride the wave of success with that artist, which has been a great benefit.

Okay. You say you've been in data for 30 years. Did you fall into it or did you study this?

I fell into it. I was an intern at Z100. And then I became part of the premier radio team. And MediaBase was under the premier radio team. I remember meeting Rich Meyer in the hallway. And he showed me this neat product called MediaBase on floppy disk, and we joked— Yeah, you.

Know, I know you're a woman. We don't get to its numbers, but what year are we in?

We're in 1994-ish. Okay. Actually, we're in about 1996 or 7 at this point. I started in 94.

But just because before he shows you MediaBase, what are your— I mean, I know what an intern would be, but once you're on the payroll, what are you doing?

So I actually was an intern that this is the funny thing. I went to school, had my master's in psychology and counseling. And I want to.

Go deeper into this. Let's go deeper. Wait, wait. You grew up where?

I grew up in what I call the Isle of Staten, but Staten Island, New York.

Okay. Well, since we're so deep, what did your parents do for a living?

My dad was a salesperson. My mom was a teacher. And what did he sell? He sold electronics.

Okay.

Very blue, very blue collar.

And how many kids in the family?

Two kids. I have an older brother, about two and a half years.

And what is his life?

He actually is, he's an entrepreneur. He runs restaurants and does bookkeeping and stuff. He actually has a law degree that, and then when he graduated, didn't want to be a lawyer anymore. So he's gone out and just like helps run businesses and stuff.

Okay. So where do you go to college?

So I go to college at NYU. I get my master's.

Just to be clear, you're living in Staten Island. You go to NYU, you live in Manhattan?

I actually drove in every day.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

Would you park?

You know, on the street or in the parking garage. And frankly, back then, I think about when I first started working at Premier, I would scrape change off the floor of the car and decide which bridge or tunnel I was going to take home based on which one I could actually afford to get home.

So, yeah. Okay, wait. So when you go to NYU's gigantic school and the status has risen dramatically over the years, if you are a non-resident, does that affect your experience?

A non-resident in Manhattan. No, no, I mean non-resident, not living in the dorm.

Not living in the dorm.

It probably did, but I didn't notice it back then. I had my nice little first boyfriend at home that I didn't want to leave. So in my mind, it was not a good choice in retrospect. But at the time, that was the choice. But I don't know that I missed out on anything.

So you graduate from college, then you get a master's.

I get a master's.

What was your undergraduate degree?

My undergraduate degree was psychology as well. And then I got a master's in counseling.

Okay. Where was that master's from? NYU. Okay. So are we essentially talking five or six years of school?

That was six.

Yeah.

So between undergrad and master's.

Since you went to graduate school, did you have a passion? Do you think this is really want to do?

No. Now that we're talking about it, I wanted to be a lawyer.

Okay.

And I missed the test of the school I wanted to get in by a couple of points and had to wait a full year until I could retake the test. So in that time, rather than wait the full year, I had one of my undergrad teachers who was like, I think you would be great in this program. And so I said, let me do this program. And then when I graduate, I'll reapply for law school or somewhere in the middle of this program, I'll reapply to law school.

I never ended up doing that. I graduated. I was interning at Z100 now.

Well, a little bit slower. Why did you decide not to go to law school? I don't know.

I mean, I guess I was enjoying the program, and then I became an intern at Z100. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You're studying to be counseling. That's a one- or two-year program.

That was a two-year program.

And- You wake up one day, say, hey, I want to work at C100?

Well, I was a big music lover.

Okay.

My grandfather and my father were massive, massive fans of music, more classical and things that aren't necessarily my taste. But my whole life was music and the whole house had, you know, vinyl records. So I was very much a music lover. And when I had to do an internship, you'll appreciate that I was an intern on a show called Love Phones.

So that's the Dr.

Judy and Chris Jagger. And that was a call and advice radio show. And I thought to myself, how much better could this be that I am partly at a radio station where there's lots of music, but I'm my job was to either counsel people who made it on air and needed more counseling or who never made it on air and needed some counseling.

OK, how'd you get the gig?

So it's funny that you ask that because I asked my husband if I should tell this part of the story. But I'm sitting in the waiting room of Z100 and they sat me there for hours and they weren't going to hire me because my hair was too big. Keep in mind, I'll show you some pictures. My hair back then in the 90s, you know, early 90s.

Did they literally say that your hair is too big?

The host said. Was concerned that she didn't want to hire me because my hair was too big. And the program director said, please look past the hair. And thankfully, she did. I was hired. And, you know, it was a wonderful experience working on the show.

You're going to school.

Yeah.

You need an internship. Were you aware of this internship or you say, what I'd really like to do is work on Z100? How did you?

No, I think I probably, you know, I was going to say Google, but no, I wouldn't have Googled it. I don't remember how I found it, but it must have been advertised somewhere.

Okay. So they were looking for a person.

They were looking for an intern.

Okay. And how long did that internship run?

I joke, I never left. I was there. They were like, when is your internship over? I was like, three years ago. So I ended up working on the show because I came very close with Dr. Judy and Jagger. And so I just voluntarily stayed on. This was back in the days when they didn't even pay you for internships. So I never wanted to leave. I loved it. And then when I graduated, that was right around the time that that show was becoming syndicated and was purchased by Randy Michaels.

From J-Corps, who knew at that time he was also buying Premier Radio Networks. So they said, hey, kid, you just graduated. Would you like to work for us for the summer? And I said, sure. And somewhere in that summer and the next school year, they offered me a job at Premier. I accepted and I've never now left.

OK, wait. This was between your two years of school?

Yeah, so in the two-year period.

So you did finish school.

I finished school. I got my master's.

But you never did anything.

Never did anything.

Okay, so you're in the call-in love show. Your job is to be the counselor. Having had that experience, A, is it a certain type of person who does that kind of show? B, to what degree does it affect them?

The callers or the?

Yeah, the people you're counseling.

It's really interesting because, again, it was different times, right? I will say it was very much for entertainment in a lot of ways because you obviously had Judy was the straight woman and Chris was the funny guy.

Right.

We would go to events and people would walk up to us and say, you have no idea how much you saved our life. I think what was magical about that show and what I think was fantastic is you had the gift of anonymity. So you can call up and talk to a total stranger about your problems and we don't really know who you are. But what was also awesome is all the other people listening that would be too embarrassed or wouldn't feel comfortable making that phone call got the benefit of hearing us. what the caller was saying. So I think there actually was a great benefit not only to the callers, but also the listeners.

And I think that's why the show was so popular.

So, In terms of counseling, did these people have any problems? What was your... We.

Didn't try and go too deep because I obviously wasn't really qualified if somebody was like suicidal or something really deep. A lot of it was me just, we had a whole massive book of like resources. So I would try and either find them local resources for something that made more sense for them. So we were there to just try and maybe get them to the right person that they needed the deeper interaction with, or it might've just been a... real light thing that, you know.

Okay. Randy Michaels, you talk like you're buds. Were you buds?

We were buds. I will say he was wonderful to me and was just very supportive of me.

Okay. But I'm interested in your personality. Okay. You're obviously upbeat and very verbal. Are you the type of person? Let's go to the talent side. I mean, the performer. None of those people make it by accident. Okay. Talent is at most 50%.

Right.

And a lot of them can see the target and they work it. Right. So were you working it? No, I don't.

Again, I don't think I was that smart back then. I just genuinely was very passionate. I was raised again. I was raised very, very blue collar. My father taught me the deepest work ethic. So I was the first one in, last one out. I volunteered to help everyone I could to learn what I could. You know, so I just genuinely was very passionate, very interested in growing, very interested in learning, very interested in connecting. And so it was all by accident. I wasn't purposely working anything, but it definitely worked out for me.

Yes. You graduate from the two-year program. Is that when you start getting paid?

Yeah. Then I was officially hired by Premier Radio. Okay.

Not everyone's going to remember. There's been so many changes in radio. Please describe Premier Radio.

So Premier Radio is the syndicated arm of what is now iHeart. Back then it was J-Core and then Clear Channel. What Premiere does is the syndicated shows like Ryan Seacrest, Mario Lopez, Bobby Bones. It's all of the big major shows. So my original job at Premiere was to sell those shows and those services, which included MediaBase, to all of the other radio stations, not just our own, but to every other radio group.

Okay, wait a little bit slower. You're working on this call-in love show. When he comes in, he owns your show or is in control of your show. How do you move into sales?

Yeah, we're skipping a little bit. So eventually the show was let go and there was no more show. And they came to me and said.

Wait, this is the nature of radio. A, did you see it coming? And B, what did everybody think when they got let go?

I didn't see it coming and it was very upsetting. And it was a massively popular show. And it had a great run. But at that point, it just had run its course, and they decided we're no longer going to syndicate this show. However, would you like a job selling? And I said, oh, my God, I'm not a salesperson.

I can't sell, but I did need a job. I did have to pay for that car to drive in and out, so I decided to give it a chance, and I became a salesperson. Okay.

They throw you in the deep end?

They throw me in the deep end.

Did they give you any instruction, or they say, call this person, sell this?

That's what they did. Okay. And it's funny because I started, I was selling the Big Bang concert series.

So you only sold one series?

No, this was my very first ever experience.

But didn't they give you like a list? We have X number of shows.

We did, but they eased me in.

Okay, just because we're this deep, how many shows, how many salespeople?

Probably about eight salespeople. And it was shows and products, right? So there had to be probably at least 40 shows and products because we had production libraries. You had media base. You had services that were off the air. But you also had, again, the Ryan Seacrests of the world and shows like that.

Okay. Were you on commission? I was.

So salary and commission.

Assuming you never sold anything, they would fire you anyway. But a lot of those salary and commission, you can't live on the salary.

It was not easy, which will eventually lead to my transition. I mean, if you want to keep going really deep on my personal story, there's a lot here.

Okay. So in any event, you start to sell. Tell us that experience.

I start to sell. And to our earlier conversation, my degree in psychology probably was the greatest asset I could have ever had because I found myself, I joke when I say this, I say it facetiously, counseling the people I'm calling. So I would have customers or radio station programmers that I'm talking to across the country. And I know this person's going through a divorce and this person's kid, you know, so it was, it was, I was having these great like conversations with people, but my psychology degree helped me a understand personalities and how to deal with them.

But also it helped me develop some really incredible true relationships because we would get into great conversations where I guess I was good at giving advice or I was good at like having those conversations with them because of what my actual training was. So I've always been. very much a good people person. So I realized very early on that the person that claimed they were the meanest person ever would be my biggest client. And, you know, there was one person, I remember reading in the database that if we reunited the Beatles and and resurrected Christ, I will still never work with you ever again because he had been mad at something that had happened prior.

So I said, oh, this looks interesting. So I called him up and I said, I'm not trying to sell you anything. I see the history here. You know, I'll just be your friend. He's like, whatever. So for like two or three years, I would just call him. We would have conversations. I wouldn't try and sell him anything.

I took it very seriously that he was probably never going to work with us again. And then one day I get an email that's like, Send me a contract for MediaBase. And I'm like, don't tease me. And it ended up that not only did he take one product from me, he ended up taking all the products and became one of our best clients. But that was because I put in the work of genuinely caring and not trying to sell him. It actually was the best sales tool I could have tried.

Okay, that particular person had their own unique history.

Exactly.

But it's kind of like Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, always be closing.

Always be closing.

So how do you close?

Again, I think, and a lot of times interns and young people talk, I advise them on this. I believe my approach was genuinely caring, genuinely listening, not having a, looking for a short-term win at the expense of, you know, not doing the right thing. So I just approach things like we were saying, as I tried to develop real relationships.

I tried to really care. I gave them a good deal, even if I made less commission. I just tried to be really fair and it worked.

Okay. But very specifically, I'm talking to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. At what point do you say, you know, everybody's got their own technique. We've all bought cars. It's like, okay, should we write this up? Or, you know, how would you get to that point?

We have a lot of jokes about this. One of my current bosses, Mr. Tom Pullman, who I love, he was one of my original clients. And I remember Craig Kitchen, who ran Premier Radio at the time, we were trying to get Tom to take a particular product. And I remember them saying, well, what did Tom say? And I was like, well, he said no. And they're like, well, what did you say? I said, great, I'll send you the contract. Like, there are times where I just was so relentless. But I guess... I figured out how to stay just on the line of relentless and persistent, but never over the line to the point where it was offensive.

But I was pretty relentless, and I didn't give up.

Okay, you're pretty endearing, very endearing. Did any of these, just in your history, did it ever go sideways? Do you ever get in an argument with somebody? Do you ever draw the line?

No. I've never really had to because, again, I am usually a diffuser. I'm not an escalator. So I don't recall ever really getting in a fight with anyone. If I felt like somebody was crossing a boundary or doing something, you know, I guess I would politely speak up and figure out my own way of saying that, but I'm very diplomatic. But, yeah, no, I don't remember ever really having a fight with anyone.

Okay, so how long are you selling?

I am selling... At least 15 years. I mean, I'm selling for a long time.

No, no, no. Before you get additional duties, you're starting off selling for Premier. How long before you get an additional duty or your job?

So I'm selling for Premier.

Right.

And one day I realized. So now I move into the city. Finally, I'm not driving in from Staten Island anymore.

What happened to the boyfriend?

We broke up.

I mean, you went to college. Did you break up with him right away or did he get a long run?

And we broke up somewhere mid-college.

Okay.

Yeah.

Just because what was his life? You were going to college. What was he doing?

He was a Staten Island. He was doing, like, I don't know, landscaping or something, you know.

Okay. So he's— You move into Manhattan.

Continue. Yeah, I move into Manhattan, and I realize I can't quite afford to eat. It's expensive there in Manhattan. I'm not sure I really did the proper math on that.

Where are you living?

I'm living in Midtown.

Okay.

I actually bought an apartment with the help of my parents and with the help of one good stock tip. And so I buy my first apartment, but I'm starving. So I say to my.

Boss— How old are you when you buy an apartment?

I was 30 at that point.

Okay.

Still impressive.

It's New York. Okay.

But again, I lived at home up until about then. So I go straight from my parents' house to an apartment.

Well, it's one thing to live in an apartment, you know, New York. The apartment's small as this room. Okay. But to actually own something is fantastic. Pretty great. Okay, continue.

It was pretty awesome, and I was very proud of myself, but then I had to actually pay for it.

Right.

And eat.

Right.

So I had this interesting role already where I was kind of, I don't know, I was like, I developed all these incredible relationships. So because it wasn't just iHeart or, you know, Clear Channel people at the time, I knew the head of Emmys. I knew the head of programming for Enercom. I knew CBS. So I had developed all these incredible radio relationships. And at the same time, because I was going out and doing all these events, I started developing all these record company relationships. So one of the girls.

How do you end up doing.

But I'm working at Z100. So at any given time, record labels are coming up with artists. And so I'm also interacting with record labels. So I developed accidentally this really interesting niche of I am straddling both radio and records and I have relationships on both sides. A lot of times people typically will have a lot of relationships on one side and a lot of relationships on the other side. So as I'm starving, one of the girls that I was working with who was handling some of the record label products said, decides she would rather be an actress and she leaves. So I said to my boss, please let me have that job because I know a lot of the record company people too. And they're like, no, but you're the number one salesperson at this point. And

we do not want to distract you. And I said, that's great, but I need a second job. So it's with you or someone else, please give me the chance. And if it doesn't work, we can readjust. So they're like, okay, fine. So I start every year or so, somebody leaves and I'm like, I'll take that. I'll take that too.

Wait, wait, wait. But you're still doing your old stuff?

I'm still doing my original job. So how does one person do all that work? Bob, this is a really good question. But at any given point, by one point, five people had left and I had somehow taken on their duties. I will say I'm obviously a multitasker. But I would figure out ways to kind of incorporate them so they made sense. They might not make sense to other people, but it made sense. I was able to do them simultaneously.

Does your boss realize what you're doing? Oh, yeah. I mean, do they compensate you? I used to have to pay five people. Now I have one.

I wouldn't say they compensate me for five, but I was definitely well taken care of. And so now, at a certain point, I am— doing a lot more with MediaBase. And the person that was running MediaBase decided he was leaving for another job. And they're like, we have to hire you a new boss. And I was like, OK.

So in the meantime, I have no boss. And they're out interviewing, you know, big, powerful guys to take over.

Just to be clear, if you start in the late 90s, what year are we in now?

Very early 2000s. And so, you know, at that time and for most of my career, media base and BDS were very much competitors. So I find myself in a situation where one of the major labels is going to not use media base anymore and they're just going to use BDS. And I'm in a panic. So I and I have no one else but me to do this.

So I go in and I'm trying to get a meeting with the guy who's responsible for the contract and I cannot get it. So I have one connection where I'm calling this guy and he's not really picking up the phone or not picking up all the time. And I'm like, I'm calling his assistant every 10 minutes going, you got to get me the meeting. And finally, like, oh, Lord, you have wore us down. We're going to get you this one meeting. So I prepare this gigantic deck. And I go into this guy, a very powerful guy at Capital at the time, and I present him. I give him my deck and he takes it and throws it across the room and says, neither God nor the devil can help you now. I'm not taking your product. And that's it. A normal person might have been like, oh,

this is a bummer and left. But I'm like, I can't. I can't fail. I can't leave. Again, very relentless. So I'm trying every angle I can. until I finally get into a whole thing. I'm like, listen, I will sell records out of the back of my car.

I will. I don't just go.

And finally, there's a moment where he goes, you know what, kid? Here's the deal. If you can get the different promotions people to agree that they'll each split what the fee is, I will let you have your deal. I appreciate your relentlessness. And so I called the promotions people at that time, every one of them, one by one. And the last one was one I actually kind of knew. And he's like, you know what, kid, fine, I'll give you your deal.

And I ended up getting the deal. And at that point, Rich Meyer, who was the inventor and overseeing MediaBase and Craig, who they're like, you know what, why hire a boss over her? She obviously got one of the hardest deals done that her boss would have technically been getting done. So we're going to give you the chance. and give you the role, and that was my first major promotion, taking over MediaBase and running that with Rich.

Okay. Can you remember how much money it was, like, for a deal like that?

Oh, it was a couple hundred thousand dollars.

For the year?

For the year, yeah.

Okay, let's go back. To my memory, BDS started before MediaBase. And BDS said, we have all this scientific stuff, and we're going to give you an accurate reading. Whereas MediaBase said, we have people, and they're going to tell us what's really going on.

So.

What was the difference then?

The difference was, and that ended up being our asset. So they made it a negative when it was absolutely an asset. So again, my first big sale with my now good friend Tom Pullman was being able to fax them a log of media base versus BDS. Because a lot of times the computer was detecting wrong things or it wasn't detecting things, whereas the human was. was able to go in and recognize what was wrong and or pick up things that were missed by the computer. So our edge was always the fact that we missed less songs because we would have human experts that to this day, I don't know how you find these people, but they could identify a song in their format with five seconds at any point during a song, not even necessarily the hook,

and they would know what that was. It was a very rigorous test that they had to go through to become One of those, you know.

How do they do it?

No, no, no.

Different question. Radio is broadcasting live. What is somebody recording a tape and then someone sits in a booth very fast?

So we were a mix of technology. We just had the additional layer of people. So where BDS was only the technology, we were the technology with the added value of the humans that would then fill in the hole. So there was one great moment where Mariah Carey would have missed a number one song had it been just a BDS world. But we detected... a bunch of spins that for some reason there was a technical error on their side. So when that happened, that was our first entree into Sony Music at the time. And we were able to get the first label deal because of that.

And then on the radio station side, I was able to send them the logs that we were compiling and say, compare this to your actual programming log and let me know what you see. Look at BDS, look at your log, look at me, call me back. And almost every time they'd be like, send me a contract. Because we were, at that point, much more accurate because of the people.

Okay, just because I'm going to buy, not really.

Okay.

Since it's computerized some level and then human beings, what are the human beings literally doing to make it accurate?

They're listening. So we were taping the audio.

That's my question.

We would tape the audio, the computer, which, by the way, very interesting fact that I don't know everyone knows, it was Shazam technology before Shazam was actually an app.

Right.

So we had a partnership with BMI, and we were using... Very early Shazam technology, and actually our training of that technology was what led to the final Shazam product that you now know today. But we had Shazam technology, so the computer would pick up a lot of the songs, and then you would have a human that would... look at the log and see where there were spaces or see where something was missed, then go back, listen to the audio and say, okay, got it. This is what song it is. Or know that it was a commercial that was playing a song underneath, which again could trick the computer, but we can hear that it was actually a commercial.

Okay. I'm a record company and I only want to buy one. Are they the same price?

They were actually more expensive at the time because we were second into the market. So we were a little cheaper. But as the years went, they became somewhat relatively priced.

From an outside observer, BDS is history. I mean, what are the statistics?

The difference was that they were part of SoundScan. So where they had an exclusive on the streaming and sale, it started as sales data, but then streaming data. So their edge was that they had the streaming and sales data. And our edge was that radio actually preferred our product. And from a relationship standpoint, we were able to really deeply embed ourselves in radio. So it became a fractured market because to some degree, the labels preferred BDS because the sales departments liked that they obviously needed the sales information.

But radio and the promotions department preferred MediaBase because it just was built and the reports and the way it was structured just was more appealing to radio and the promotion team. So for decades, it was a vicious battle and everybody had both. And one way that it was used was they would use MediaBase or BDS was used to reconcile the other. So they would compare notes. So if you were 10 spins away from a number one, you would be combing through Both systems trying to figure out if there was any kind of spin missed. But to your point, at a certain point, everybody was like, do we need two systems? And that was always, you know, there was always that scary.

Okay. At this point in time, what is the market share of MediaBase as opposed to BDS?

Equal, in a sense.

Still?

Yeah. Oh, now?

Yeah.

So now BDS ended up winding down their business.

Right.

And now we have 100% of the market share. Okay.

Because I stopped hearing about BDS. When did BDS wind down their business?

About 20, during the pandemic, like right going into the pandemic.

Okay. This is a sales product. That's why it exists. There's been so much consolidation. Has that affected opportunities in business for you?

Yeah. Thankfully not, because you still have enough people programming enough stations. It's an essential tool. So on the label side, I joke it's the stock ticker of the music industry because people are literally watching it by the minute to see what their spins are. And at radio, it is the most essential tool for, well, outside of whatever in-house data they have. But from a programming perspective, it's very important to programmers because they can use it to see what their competitor is playing. to use it to negotiate for shows or other things to show that they were the first to support an artist. There's a lot of uses for it, but it's an essential programming tool.

This is a left-field question, but I want to ask it. For a long time, USA Today has printed the media-based numbers, whereas this is a business, if you don't pay, we don't give you anything, okay? So what is the status of public media-based numbers at this point?

So right now, we're on every... Every industry trade outside of Billboard publishes the media-based charts, and now we actually do supply the data to Billboard. So our data is in Billboard. It's just that it's used for their separate charts. So media-based and Billboard have separate charts, separate panels. We are separate entities, but our data now powers the Hot 100 and the Billboard charts. Okay.

Okay.

So we don't have a print partner for the media base only charts?

But if I'm just a punter, okay, other than USA Today, where can I see media base?

Hits Magazine.

Just trades. Anywhere other than trades. No.

Okay.

Only in the system.

Right. But why not, if it's so easily accessed by USA Today, why not have it? Because I was on there earlier. You can get the top 40, okay? But why isn't it accessible to everybody? Because people are interested.

We had, so All Access always had some, and you know, we still have a ton of traffic to that site. We acquired the site. So to your point, there was a lot of just fans and consumers that want to see the numbers. There was very small radio stations and or label people that used it because it was good enough for whatever they needed to see. But there was never a print publication that made sense to partner with that.

Right. I was just thinking of website. Okay. So we live in a very fractured environment. There's a formula for the Hot 100. To what degree would they, let's just call 40 tracks, make it simple. To what degree did the 40 tracks they come up with align with the radio play? Because you have that media base. How different are they?

I wouldn't say they're dramatically different because radio plays is a huge factor in the Hot 100. And so I guess the difference would be you can get a number one on the media-based pop chart or alternative chart, but it's more difficult for everybody to get a number one or a top 10 on the Hot 100. if you aren't a massive streaming artist. So originally... I would say earlier on, you wouldn't see as many country artists. Now, I think you've had such a big transition with like the Morgan Wallens and the Luke Combs and people that have massive streaming numbers that now will get on and Noah Kahn's and people like that. But at the time, you would have Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey.

You would have it was it would be a lot of the big either pop and or multi format artists that had massive streaming numbers. That would be on the Billboard chart. But you could still have an artist get a number one. They just didn't have those streaming numbers.

Okay. I'll look at the Hot 100, and I'll look at the Spotify Top 50, and they don't tend to align.

Because streaming, it's a different formula, right?

Well, let me restate my question. Okay. You have media base. That's what's actually being played. Right. No ifs, ands, or buts. Let's use Spotify because you can see all the numbers. That's why people are actually listening to. Yep. And they've never been such separate worlds. Then all of a sudden we have a chart, the Hot 100, that's like, well, we have a chart. Well, it's a combination of all.

But maybe people aren't really, radio's not really playing and people are, it's like, it seems archaic to me.

Again, it's the fact that it's a chart that's representative of all. So I do understand your point, but I think in fairness, you're measuring success across all platforms and that's going to skew it because you're going to have massive artists that are going to be on the top of that Spotify chart, but not have a lot of airplay and not have a lot of YouTube. You're going to have On the radio charts, you're going to have people that might have a lot of airplay and don't have a lot of streaming. The Billboard Hot 100 is really looking at all of those factors across the board.

So you need to succeed in all of those to be on the top of that chart. And that's what I think the differentiation would be and why it doesn't totally match sometimes. OK.

It's well established that major stations' records take longer than ever to happen. We have this Ella Langley Billboard chart number one. Broke the record, OK? When it's going to 23 weeks, is it already on the downside at radio? Is it already history and it's just the late comers and the fans are streaming it?

No, it's still very valuable at radio and still very healthy. I mean, it's one of those unicorns that come once in decades or in a generation that it The streaming, the airplay, everything about it is just massive and sustaining. So it's just a unicorn of a song.

Okay, I'm looking at the country chart before I come in. Kenny Chesney was number one on the media base chart. And I looked, he's single, and I looked at the Spotify numbers that were positively anemic.

So I found... I feel like, in fairness to Kenny, heritage and legacy artists don't always get the same playlisting benefit that some of the newer artists do. So a lot of times you will see some of those legacy acts have and they're still very viable to us. So where Kenny is a massive radio artist and still very viable, he may not get the same playlisting reach or playlisting.

benefit that a Luke Combs might, who's a big streamer. So you will see that. That's not, you know.

Okay. How about whether it be developing or superstar acts, let's just assume for whatever reason, like Kenny, if radio is going to go on it, radio is on it right away. Let's use the Kenny Chesney example. Will we find there's a delay and ultimately streaming will pick it up or just certain acts don't stream?

Both, but certain acts just don't stream, right? It's really dependent on their audience and where they're used to consuming that artist's music. So you will definitely see a song that starts with not a lot of streaming, but with the radio play and with the other things that happen around it, touring, you will see it absolutely build because the on-demand and the search and share and all the other factors will definitely be affected by the radio airplay and by the touring. But some people just don't stream as much.

Okay. So going back before your time, MTV launches. It's its own entity. It now starts to happen. We start to have top 40 stations on FM, which didn't exist prior to that. Okay. Used to be... that radio was most influential, and then they started playing with MTV. MTV dictated the playlists, okay? We see acts, since it takes so long for an act to break, because this is someone who's not already, you know, been on the chart.

It feels that this may be out of your purview, that the radio stations are looking at the streaming numbers to see what they're playing. They....

Well, you're absolutely right in that streaming, sales, Shazam, ticket sales. I mean, there's a lot of data I think radio stations look at to try and get an indication of what has heat. That being said, do they only blindly follow the streaming numbers?

No.

And they will make their own decision. And I think that it's a case-by-case basis. I think the cool thing about radio is it's a little bit more of a blend of art and science because without question, everybody looks at the data. They look at streaming. They look at all of that to help them identify what has the most potential. But then you have like key programmers in our world. Like we have format heads, Mark Adams, Rod Phillips, you know, Lisa Worden, John Peake, like all the people that run the formats, Dylan Sprague and Doc Winder. They they also have curation specialty of knowing what works on the radio, what works for our listeners. So there's always a balance of we don't solely rely. We'll absolutely go

out on a Kenny Chesney song with anemic streaming because Kenny's a great artist and we might know that sonically our audience is going to love that song. But so it's a balance of the two.

Okay. In terms of today, prior to MTV, there was no other option on radio. And then, of course, MTV died. Radio and the internet comes along. It's totally splintered. Anybody can listen to any song at any time, essentially on YouTube. You don't have to pay anything other than your time. Talking about music radio, let me change the question to begin with. How much of the consumption... You may not know this, is over the air as opposed to listening online of the iHeart stations.

It's still a majority of the listening is on the terrestrial stations, and the percentage of streaming has continued to rise, but it's still predominantly on air for us.

Okay. Who is the audience today? Who is listening?

You'd be surprised that it's more than you think. Well, I hear from.

Radio people, that's what they tell me all day long. So now you can tell me.

Everybody's still listening. And that's the truth. And that's according to Nielsen, not according to me. you know, nine out of 10 Americans are exposed to radio. I think what the misconception is, is that radio is a brand, not a transmitter. So maybe people aren't listening to a clock radio on their desk and maybe, you know, they're, they're not listening to a boom box. They're listening in their car, but now they could be streaming it online. It's, They could be listening to it in PlayStation where we're integrated.

It could be on tablets. One of the biggest, you know, things for Alexa, one of the biggest commands is people ask to hear their favorite radio station on Alexa. So I think people kind of sometimes will say, I'm not listening to radio, but they actually are. They're just listening to it in a different place in a different way than traditional radio is assumed to be. And that's where some of the misconception is. But when you think about it, people, even young people, they're in the car with their friends, they're in the car with their family, they're in stores, they're, you know, in PlayStations, they're in different places. They're being exposed to radio and they're listening to it. One of the interesting things recently was we did a deal with

Netflix for some of our podcasts. The number one 40% of the downloads and consumption of that on Netflix is Charlemagne the God. So here he is having a big radio show. You put him on Netflix, the audience is following there.

I'm familiar with Charlemagne. I have enlisted on Netflix. Is the identical product? Yeah. Okay.

So the point is we have done a good job of evolving so that we're allowing people to consume our content where they want to as opposed to where we traditionally– Had them listen. You know, it doesn't have to just be a radio anymore, right? We've expanded all the places where you can get access to our content.

Media base does all the formats, even more than some people would think even exist. Yep. I come to you and I have a developing thrash metal act. And I come to you and I say... I'd like to get a brand. Let's just say for the sake of discussion, just really good thrash metal. Okay. Are you going to say, you know, it sounds great, but it's too niche. Forget the type of music that people, it's just not going to reach enough people that a brand is going to be interested. Is that a factor?

Not necessarily, because believe it or not, there's probably that is less often the kind I'm dealing with. But I think it's like dating. There's someone for everyone. There's still a product and there's still somebody that probably wants to reach that heavy metal audience. My biggest pet peeve right now is I feel like rock as a genre has not gotten the attention and the love that it should.

If you look around the world at the rock festivals where there's 100,000 people. You look at the Danny Wimmer festivals. The rock festivals and the rock audience is massive, and I don't feel the audience is And the acts get quite the same love and, you know, acknowledgement as they should considering how massive of an audience that is.

Okay. Let's stay here for a second. A great percentage of the acts are what we would call heritage acts. So, traditionally, rock is on hot whatever.

Well, you have active rock. Active rock.

That's what I meant to say. Spaced out. Who are the acts on active rock who have not already broken big? We're not talking Metallica, whatever. Who are. Underrepresented, they're just not exposed enough. They're seen as being in a ghetto because in order for rock to grow, you have to have acts that appeal to a larger audience.

So who might some of those acts be?

Well, I'm saying that, you know, even like the award shows, right, they don't always get, you know, we see the rock performances of the rock categories represented. You know, I think what's interesting about rock is that there is a much wider audience than anyone even expects to. So I think that even in your mind, rock is appealing to a very specific group. And I think with the Internet, with all the other places that people have discovered this music, radio, obviously, there's a younger generation that are discovering all these bands.

And some of these bands are having a massive resurgence, you know.

The deftones. I'm a rock fan. And, you know, I'm a fan of those acts. Because, you know, we could talk about. Let's use Choose in Texas. Okay. That's not far from a rock song. Just got a couple of affectations that turned it into country. So if we go to 70s rock, which gets a bad name except for Zeppelin. Okay, they have verses. They have chorus. They have bridge. They have lyrics you can understand. And I'll go on active rock.

That's not what they're selling. In addition, the acts have become caricatures of themselves. I want to see a hard rock act looks like nerds without tattoos. It's such an affect. Oh, you got the tattoos. You got the beard. You got whatever. It's like, you know, you're living in like in the past. You know, I'm not talking about Radio I Heart. I'm just talking about rock in general. It's too— I' ll give you— okay.

I remember when Led Zeppelin was considered at the edge. I'm talking 1969, but what I remember, okay? And then— and it was called heavy metal. Then Black Sabbath. That was one step beyond.

Right.

Now, the paragon is Metallica. People take Metallica, you know, stuff on the Black Album, there's certain stuff, you know, but generally speaking, and they're the biggest in that world, that music is not for everybody. Okay? Right. And then you have acts that are playing off of that, and then you say, you have a world, but the rest of the world does not care to listen to that. So, I think, In terms of rock, you know, if there was a Tom Petty today, be gigantic. Okay?

Yeah.

It's just I can't point to anybody like that. And so, therefore— I think.

You're starting to see more crossover, though, you know, than you have in the past. And— I think it is also, I agree, and rock is a broad term.

Right.

Because you have death metal, you have so many different versions of it. But there are bands that are... way more accessible, right? Like Foo Fighters obviously had crossover hits. A Nickelback can be on active rock as well as how they seem pop.

But those are 30-year-old acts.

Right. Again, Shinedown is on six formats right now, right?

I agree, but they've been around for a long time.

But there's a new audience discovering all these bands and engaging with them. So if we go back to the original question, which was really Brands, All I was trying to say is, I agree with what you're saying. Sometimes, I don't know that any format or any one artist is for everybody, right? But I do think there's a massive, massive population of rock fans out there that some brand...

would benefit from that because that was our original point in all this. Oh, okay, okay.

I agree with you.

Yeah, so what I was saying is there's someone for everyone. I was talking from the music.

In terms of brand thing, absolutely.

That's where I was going.

But I remember when Redneck Woman was a hit, And the woman who sang it grew up somewhere in the Midwest, Missouri or something like that. So, yeah, I grew up with a jukebox. Had ACDC, you shook me all night long. And you say, because for me, Chris Stapleton, that's rock. And he's like the most revered guy in country. And in addition, there are a lot of.

A lot of country sounds like rock.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly. It is rock. I remember going to see Keith Urban. God, time flies by. The end of the first decade of this- He's got three guitars and a bass on stage.

He's got more guitars than the rock acts. 100%.

And if you were there, you would go, I get it. It's like, so, you know, that.

Benson Boone is rock.

Excuse me?

Benson Boone could be rock. You know, Olivia Rodrigo has stuff that sounds rock. Like, that's the thing.

Olivia Rodrigo, that's... It's different. That is very pop.

It's pop, but some of those songs have the guitar and have the edge. And again, it's not hard metal, but.

I'm saying- And listen, you know, listening to Chris Stapleton, he fits right in on rock radio in the 70s. I mean, the guy, other than wearing a hat, it's like right there.

And that's the whole point of music today is that the genre walls have been coming down. So where we traditionally all lived in a world where- you were rock, you were country, you were pop, you were whatever, stay in your lane. I feel like the consumer doesn't necessarily consume that way, nor did they probably ever as much, but they have a lot of choices now. So people have broad musical tastes. So someone who loves country could also love pop, could also love alt. So those artists like a Morgan Wallen crossing over to pop, that might not have happened 20 years ago, but now those kinds of situations open up the pathway for other artists to then start crossing into newer genres that traditionally they wouldn't

have necessarily done in the past. And I think that's actually good.

Well, I agree with everything you said. The bug up I have up my ass is that media, I'm not talking media, but I'm talking about newspapers, TV, they have not caught up with the change Dating myself again, there was a bifurcation at the end of 60s into the 70s, FM, AM, completely different. Occasionally songs would crossover. MTV comes in and it's a monoculture. Media to this day thinks it's a monoculture, okay?

They'll promote Miley Cyrus. I remember she played the Grammys. They say, everybody in America. It wasn't part of, it was whatever song it was. Everybody. No, everybody doesn't. I'm not criticizing you for that. Right. But those are nowhere near as big as it once were. And all the tracks you're talking about, the rock acts, whatever, they have huge audiences. But, oh, we're breaking it down. It's... You know, it's a disconnect. Let's go back in the narrative. Now you take over media base. What does that look like?

So I was doing all of the record label deals. And in addition to that, I still... I think we're still at the point where I didn't give up some of those other jobs. So I was still doing all the deals with the radio stations as well. So I focused primarily more on media-based at this point than some of the other syndicated shows that I was doing. But it meant overseeing all the sales of that product as well as Rate the Music and some of the other music products we had. So I became very focused on the sales to record labels and radio stations of all the media-based products that were under that umbrella.

Okay. Today, how many different media-based products are there?

Well, you do have media-based. You have Rate the Music. We have Test All Media. And then we now represent Luminate to radio stations, even though that's not under our umbrella.

Okay, let's go back. There's regular media-based Rate the Music. What is that?

Well, Rate the Music and Test on media are now the same thing, but that was pre-testing of music.

Okay. Not everybody's going to be that sophisticated.

Yep.

How is it actually done?

So we have a database of music fans that listen to the music, and then there's a very comprehensive set of questions that and surveys that they answer about the song. It was a much bigger thing back in the day to pre-test before music came out. And then with the internet, it's been a little harder because people obviously were concerned about piracy or things leaking, but it's still a very viable business. Less so... you would probably not get a tale or a massive artist wanting to pre-test their songs just, again, for security purposes. But it's a fantastic tool for people if they want to find out whether a song is viable to cross to a different format, if a new artist has a hit potential. So there's a lot of it.

You could also use it for perceptual research. So there's a lot of different ways you could use the system. And it's basically asking an audience of music fans their opinion on music Okay.

I'm one of the raters. You send it to me and I do this at home and you pay, what, $ 1? Usually they pay something.

We don't even pay anything. Okay.

Yeah.

Again, these were all voluntary.

No, no. It's just a legal issue. It's not important. Okay. So what were the other products?

So, and Luminate now. So now it's really media-based Luminate and Tesla Media.

So in this time when you're given this title, which is approximately when Oh, boy.

So early 2000s.

Okay. From then to today, media based the product. How has that changed, if at all?

Well, obviously, it started as floppy disk. It went to 24-7. And now, you know, we've been working on it. So it's gone through advancements of the look of the product, the different reports you can pull. Obviously, we went from being on floppy disk to by the second, you know, it's real time. So it's evolved over the years. And what I'm excited about now is, like, we have a lot of great plans to continue to evolve the product. So.

To what degree can you tell us that or give us concepts?

I mean, I think broadening the type of information that we provide in the system or the reports that you can pull.

Just make that a little more concrete.

Being, I guess, creating new reports in ways that people are going to, both on the radio and record side, will be able to even zone in more on what they want to see. You know, if I'm a record person, there might be heat maps or different things that I'm going to want to see. So just, that's not a literal specific, but just making sure that the product is as comprehensive as.

It can be.

Okay.

You've been doing this a long time. I want to know how the customers have changed. Let's start with radio. How has the customer changed? barely at all.

I think I have the same customers for the most part because it's all the only thing that's changed is the ownership of those customers. So you still have all the same people using it. But if Enercom is now an Odyssey station where I originally had an Enercom deal, now it's just an Odyssey deal. So the landscape on either side, frankly, has not changed very much. It's the same.

You have The majors, I guess on the label side, you know, you have a lot more independent labels now that have popped up or, you know, one of the majors or somebody has gone away and then it pops up somewhere else as an independent company. So it's diversified a little bit, but the main three or four, you know, and the main radio groups all are pretty consistent.

Okay, let's leave radio side now and talk about the labels. Let's say... This is not a perfect example. Like Big Loud has Morgan Wall and other things. I don't want to use them specifically, whatever. Would a company of that size have their own media-based deal? Oh, of course.

Absolutely. That's why I'm saying everyone from the biggest labels to one person who has one artist in one format has media-based.

So if I'm one person and I have one artist, how do you charge me?

We have a sliding scale, so obviously you're not going to pay what Universal Music Group is paying.

Let's assume I'm sitting at home and I want to have a media-based account. What's the least I can pay to get in?

You know, a couple hundred.

A couple hundred a year.

A couple hundred a month.

That's what I thought. Okay, a couple hundred a month.

And I don't even want to say that as an exact— I understand. We're just putting a ballpark on it.

The product I buy, is it the same product that the people are paying $ 100K for? Yeah. Okay, so it's not like it's a limited product. Okay, there are three major label groups. Not only have they sliced the number of labels, they've sliced the number of people working there.

Okay?

So, since you were in business with them all day long, What is your perception of how the labels have evolved over this time?

I think, man, I think they've evolved in a lot of different ways. One, in how they market the artists. I think they've evolved in how they discover artists. They've evolved in how they market and build the brands of those artists. The data for them has definitely evolved and the systems that they look at have evolved. And I think that to some degree, they put their resources in different places. So I think, you know, they're very digital heavy in some cases. So I think they've just evolved with the way the industry has evolved, right?

Okay, from my perception... They're putting out fewer... This is reality. They're putting out fewer records in fewer genres, hoping for great success. You know, because of the opportunity cost, they don't want to just have singles and doubles. Therefore... What's it... Let's leave the media base side. Let's go brand side. Okay.

You're dealing with a major label. They might have a couple of labels underneath that. Are they're saying, these are three acts. We want these acts, you know, hit the Spotify top 50. How do we do that? Or do they sometimes say, well, we have this act. It doesn't really fit in. Does that even come up?

To me or to a brand? I....

Does that come up where they're talking to iHeart, whether it be you or whoever, saying, we would like a brand deal on this act?

Oh, yeah. I mean, again, we actually are working with a band right now, JYT. That's a new boy band. And from day one of their inception, before they even started, have an official hit. And they just got a massive brand deal with The Gap, which is an incredible example of doing something like that. But a lot of times we'll talk very early on with an act. And if we feel they have the potential, we're also excited to get behind them and help amplify that and help them find that brand partnership because that's just good for everybody.

So Well, Jay, you know, the boy band has unbelievable headroom if it breaks. Right. There are certain other acts without that amount of headroom. Okay. Are labels pitching those or they want to go with the moonshot acts? I think both.

I mean, if they're on a label and they're a priority, you'll see both. I mean, I think there's no way of saying there's one size fits all in terms of how much they care about you know, this artist over here versus, again, their massive A-list artist. But in a lot of cases, especially if it's a new and developing artist, I think they're very interested and very aggressive about wanting to find opportunities because I think the brand deals are now a massive part of how bands get marketing and get attention. I think that's become the great sweet spot of partnership here because you're taking, you know.

A band and their music. You're taking the reach and scale of an iHeart or a radio group that's able to really put something out to the masses. And then you've got the budget that a brand is bringing in to buy advertising and to buy amplification around that on our platform. So it really becomes a win-win-win for everybody.

So it's a great opportunity for emerging artists if they can get a brand deal because that's a great marketing look for them.

You're the national person, so you oversee everything. How many brand deals are going on at one time?

I do anywhere from 150 plus a year, believe it or not. But they can range.

Right.

It could be anything from playing Taco Bell's Christmas party to a 23-show seven-city tour for Verizon to an ambassadorship for a new mascara that's launching for L'Oreal. I mean, it runs the gamut of what the actual deal is, but I do a ton of them.

Okay. Let's say I'm a label.

Mm-hmm.

I come to you with an act. You're going to hook me up with a brand. In that, is it ever just radio or does it always encompass other things?

Well, it's not always the labels coming to us with the artist, right? So sometimes that's happening. More often in my case, it's the brand coming to us wanting to partner with with an artist. And then it's me going to the label or the manager or the agency.

Okay. Just so I know, you're obviously hooked up with iHeart. But there are other people in this business who do that. Right. Even independent people.

Yep.

What is the market share of iHeart in that world?

We have a big market share. We do a lot of deals. But the good news is the way we structure our deals, we're very collaborative with everyone else. So at any given time, I'm working with CAA. I'm working with WME. I'm working with one of the record labels. I'm working with the management team. We're not commissioning on that.

So we're actually friend. We're not competitor. So it For us, it's bringing really great opportunities to their artists. So people are very receptive to that and we have great relationships with a lot of the other people who do this kind of stuff.

Okay. So let's just say, hypothetically, you make a deal. How does iHeart get paid?

A lot of times those deals involve advertising and amplification. So for us, the upside is being able to do a really cool multi-platform deal that involves advertising and the brand, you know.

So let's assume you make a deal. You got to Company with money and an act that's going.

Yep.

What about airplay? Are they going to get any airplay as part of this deal?

No. Not because of the deal. Right, right, right.

That's what I mean. Okay. So let's say I'm going to make a deal, whatever, just to make it simple. And whatever the deal is, it's going to be radio focused. They're going to pay to get what?

So a lot of times a brand is coming in and they want, it might be we're doing a custom event. So they're going to be able to do a custom event with a few hundred people that are going to, you know, exclusively be able to attend. The artist is going to do social posts for them. You know, if it's a deeper integration, it could be a get ready with me video for a beauty product. It could be, I love this new, you know, energy drink.

What we're learning is this may or may not have anything to do with radio.

It, And what it has to do with radio is that we're a fantastic amplification for a program like this because radio sits uniquely in the middle. I've seen a lot of brand partnerships that happen. It's like if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it actually happen? So they'll do a direct deal with an artist, but they're relying only on the artist's socials or fan base. And in those cases, a lot of times it doesn't necessarily get as big of a luck.

Not always. Let's just kind of get the spectrum. theoretically, you could hook an act up for a private. Right. And that's it. So that's got... There's not any amplification there. No. Okay. Let's just assume it's a public event. Will the brand... Is part of the deal they're buying advertising? They're buying mentions?

What are they actually buying from you?

Usually advertising, digital. It could be podcasting. I mean, it really runs the gamut. So the win-win becomes if they do a deal with us and they amplify on our platforms. If I'm an artist, usually that's really good extra promotion for my song, my tour, my whatever it is that they want promotion for. versus just getting a paycheck and not getting the amplification on a platform that's really important to their career and also where a lot of their fan base lives. So it's just, it becomes a win-win-win for everybody, really.

Let's just assume it's an act and there's going to be advertising. What would that advertising sound like?

Depends on what it is.

I mean, would it, It could.

Be as simple as we're doing a contest for people to win their way into this exclusive show. It could be, hi, I'm Sabrina Carpenter and I love L'Oreal makeup and I wear it every day. And it's not always just radio. A lot of times it'll be radio, it'll be digital, it'll be video. The other thing about radio that people don't always give us credit for is we actually touch every possible media platform that there is. So yes, we have the terrestrial stations, but we have streaming on iHeart.

We do video content. We have podcasting. We now have TV partnerships. There's literally no media we don't touch.

Okay, just because you're there. TV partnerships and video, play those out so I know what they are.

John Frieda hair care stories. It might be an editorial series where we do a video series on an artist's hair journey. And they talk about, you know, it was so hard growing up with curly hair and I wanted straight hair. And, you know, and the John Frieda products are integrated within that and becomes a video series versus just a radio spot.

You have the videos. Where are those posted?

It could be YouTube. It could be on the iHeart sites. It could be on the brands.

Oh, no, it could.

It just depends. There's no one answer.

And when you're talking TV, you mean ads on TV?

It could be the iHeart Radio Music Festival that's on TV, and there could be a brand partnership that's integrated into that. So, you know, and Netflix, I was saying like we have the Netflix deal, right? So there's no medium we don't actually touch in some way or have you know, content on. So people think of us as radio only and terrestrial radio, but we're everywhere.

We've made a deal.

Yes.

You're Ms. Data. Yep. I pay my $ 1 million. The whole thing plays. 20 years ago, it was the Wild West. You want to sponsor a tour, we'd show you. And then everybody pulls back. They say, we don't know what we're getting for the money. So if I'm giving you the money, what data do you give me back that it worked?

We have, and I will say some of that is not totally my purview, but we have tons of data. We have a whole other department as it relates to that, that can absolutely show brand lift. brand affinity and how it was affected, social numbers, obviously, view counts. It really depends on what the activation was, but we can give them a great look at here's how many people consumed it on what platforms and how those people are talking about your product. And are they more familiar with your product now than they were before? So there's just a lot of research we could do that's both my data focused as well as like consumer data focused. focus that'll show what the benefit was.

Okay. Is it possible that we do the deal and the data does not show big impact, big lift?

I guess it's always possible that not everything's a home run, right? Okay.

My question is, because it's always possible.

Right.

But since you've been doing it so much... Are most people happy?

I think so because, again, that goes way back to why, you know, we created this unique department. So I obviously have the media-based job, but the global music marketing side, we basically function as an in-house music marketing agency.

Right.

So, you know, again, because we have the data and the relationships, I always, when I'm talking to a brand, I say we have a lot of data. We have the tangible data, which is what... Where are they performing best? Do they sell tickets? Do they have good social engagement? What's their airplay? What's their sales?

All that.

But then you have the intangible data, which is, are they good to work with? Do they really like this product? And are they going to really step up and be excited to be part of it? Are they about to have a scandal come out? Is their next song actually not going to be so great? And even though they're a big name, they may not be the best choice for you. because that single isn't going to be supported.

It might be, I know they're going to be our next on the verge and they're likely going to blow up. It might be that I know they're going to walk on stage with Taylor Swift in three weeks and nobody else knows that that's happening. So there's so much art and science and data and intangible data that I think we bring, like having that knowledge is something that most agencies and brands are never going to have that kind of access really.

Okay.

To do on their own.

And in terms of you, Yes. Let's just assume somebody made a deal with Pepsi.

Yep.

Brand doesn't matter. Who finds the act? Is that you? Uh-huh. Okay. How much of the time do they come to you and they say, this is the act we want? It happens.

It definitely happens. So a lot of... It happens both ways. So sometimes they'll come and be like... This is the literal person we want. Are we better off going through you? They might come and say, hey, we want one of these few people. What do you think? And we collaboratively work together on either going out to all of them or working down the list to the best choice. And sometimes they come and go, please tell us who we should be working with. So it can work any one of those ways.

Okay. Leaving out someone who is promoting, everyone's promoting 24-7, but they're not on current album cycle. Yep. Brand comes to you, I want X artist. Will you make contact with that X artist however you do it? How often do they say yes?

If the deal makes sense, all the time, you know?

Okay, so what are the factors? How much is it the money and how much of it is what you want me to do?

I would say it's both because to your point, if someone is not in cycle and there isn't really a direct and obvious benefit to their song their tour, you know, just something that's a current project for them, then it's more likely they're going to want a number that makes sense for them to do the deliverables. But you might have a heritage act that has a lot of money, but for whatever reason is excited about what the amplification will be, or it might be a resurgence for their older music, whatever it is, and then they might consider.

But I would say if they're not in cycle, it's a little bit more about the actual check and then If they are in cycle, it could still be about the check depending on what those deliverables are, but they might be more flexible because sometimes knowing that there's a half a million or a million dollars or even $ 5 million of media that's going to be part of this campaign in addition to the paycheck, that could be very valuable or even more valuable to somebody.

Okay, let's just go back to privates. There are people at agencies who book the privates. So if someone calls you, I have a convention, I want, you know, a major star. Do you do that or do you then call the agency?

I would, what I normally will do is call whoever I have the best relationship with. So again, I love the agencies. I work really closely. So a lot of times I'll be respectful. If it's their artist, I'll go to them. If it's someone I don't have as much of a relationship with the agent, but I'm really tight with the manager or the label, then I'll go whatever the path of least resistance is. But at the end of the day, it's the same benefit for the artist.

Okay, so- Certainly in the 60s, early 70s, acts wouldn't do commercials. At this point, there's still, Eagles won't do commercials, whatever. In your experience, forgetting the number and the deliverables, if at all, people say, I just don't do that stuff.

I would say less people are like that now. I think to your point, you know, it was like John Mellencamp, and there was a lot of artists that in a million years would never have considered doing something like that, but I think because this is more the norm of how marketing happens and I think it's just more of a norm in society and how things work. I think it has to be an organic fit. It has to feel good. I think it has to be something they really believe in and feel good. Like most people don't want to just take a check for anything. But I think if it's the right fit, something they organically really like and it makes sense and the asks are something that feel appropriate and organic to them, then they're way

more open to it now than I think they would have been.

Okay, let's start with an act that has a name but is not in cycle. Used to be this stuff hung in the atmosphere. Everybody knew everything. Now, everybody has a very narrow view. So you come to me with a brand. I'm the act. And the number, we can work out the number. But I'm saying here, you know, don't really, doesn't wholly feel right to do advertising. But if you can show me that this is going to impact my career, then I'm interested. Do you have data saying, okay, act from the 80s? You make this deal. We've done it with five other people. Their attendance or their streams or something has happened. A, does that happen? And B, do you have the data?

Yeah, I think, again, if it's, If it's a big enough campaign with enough media, it's going to likely benefit that artist. Because to your point, it might increase their streams. If they're on a tour, it might help with their ticket sales. It might just bring them back into the forefront in a way that they haven't been in a while if they're a legacy act and they're not in cycles. So, yes.

And usually the data will show an increase in, you know, whether it's their social followers, their streams, their, you know, there's different metrics you can look at, ticket sales.

But, yeah.

Again, nothing is ever guaranteed, but normally if done correctly.

Believe me, I know.

Normally if done correctly, you're going to see a lift. Everybody will.

You're saying unlike other people who do this, you sit in the center and you have all of these things. This is hypothetical. Let's say you're a heritage act and you have new music and you want to get it exposed. Let's just leave it at very difficult. Could I say to you, hook me up with a brand and we're going to get X number of impressions so people will be aware of it. Would that be reasonable thinking?

Yeah, it's smart thinking, I think, you know, because, again, I think brands are now, you know, a great potential source of marketing for music, right? Because if you have a Pepsi or, you know, an American Express, like any of these brands that do massive, massive marketing campaigns, It's a benefit to any artist, whether they're legacy, new, emerging, superstar.

I mean, it's definitely a way. The labels don't always have, depending on who the artist is, they may not have a $ 3 million marketing budget for everybody, right? Maybe they do for the biggest.

For almost nobody. Right.

So now if a great quality blue chip brand comes along and has a great checkbook and it's a quality product that they relate to and feel good about, I mean, it's a great thing for them to explore now.

I'm a brand. I want to be in business with you. How much do I, what's my spend minimum have to be?

I don't know that we have that. I think we take it on a case-by-case basis. It might be you're already a great client of ours and this deal might be.

Let's say I'm a newbie. and I say, I want to spend 25 grand, are you going to say, that's just not going to buy enough? I love you, but we can't do it.

Candidly, that's probably not likely something from the national side that would make sense. But honestly, I've helped the local teams. That might be a great buy in the local market. And if it's something that makes sense that we're able to put together, I don't know that we ever turn someone away if it's a good deal and a good brand and it's a good opportunity for an artist. So- obviously we all have limited resources and they would want us all to focus on the bigger deals, but I will usually judge whether or not how easy, how much resource has to go into something like this, right?

So tell me a couple of true stories.

Big ones or little ones?

Both.

Well, one of my favorites right now that I think could be one of the coolest ones I've worked on in my career is Lincoln came to us and wanted to do an exclusive podcast series. And simultaneously, I got a call that Nile Rodgers was interested in doing a podcast. And I was like, whoa. This is a gift that just fell from the sky because obviously Niall is, I consider him a gift to the world. He makes perfect sense for a luxury brand like Lincoln. And knowing that my biggest task is having to get great artists to want to have a conversation on this podcast, what better incentive than to be able to talk to Niall Rodgers?

So make a long story short, we just were able to put this deal together. It was a one series.

Oh, sorry.

A one season deal right now. But I probably have enough people, you know, excited or interested that I could probably have booked three seasons by now. We just launched We launched number one in music podcasts and number 28 overall in all Apple podcasts. So right there, I would say that's an incredibly successful deal that was great for Niall, great for Lincoln, great results. And I think it's also something that not everyone would have been able to bring that opportunity to Lincoln because they wouldn't have been getting that phone call from Niall's manager going, hey, Niall's kind of interested in this.

Okay. Right here. iHeart has a big podcast division. How did you know that Niall was interested?

His manager called me is what I'm saying.

Oh, so the manager didn't call the podcaster. He called you. Yes.

Well, because again, a lot of artists will call me or managers will call me if depending, you know, like I'll call all of us. Like there's obviously different people.

Okay.

They might call Tom Pullman. They might call, you know.

Okay. Since you touch so many people, but there's only 24 hours in a day. How often do you hear from a representative saying, got an opportunity for my act?

A lot, and I love it.

I mean, twice a day, twice a month?

I guess it varies. It could be once a week. It could be.

Okay, so let's say I call you. I know you. We have history. You know, I have this act, blah, blah, blah. Will you ever say, you know, you're off cycle. Maybe this isn't the right time.

I'll never say no. I'll always try, but I might not always succeed. So again, a lot of what I do is more coming from the brand side, asking for opportunities with artists versus us Going out because to your point, they have agencies and labels and people that are also working all the time to get them those deals. But all the time I will have people on the phone with me that will say, hey, and if you come across because I know I do it. So it's like if you come across any deals that make sense, we're interested. Sometimes, you know, it's just part of the conversation that I'll have with people as I'm talking to them about their music.

I'm still very, very much a part of breaking the new music or helping with their rollout plans and their marketing plans. In addition to just the brand stuff, it might just be music strategy, helping them figure out what markets to target.

Let's leave the brand aside. Tell me how that looks in terms of you helping break acts.

So I've always been a passionate person about new music. That has always been my thing. So I like to joke that I'm one of the people you come to at the very, very beginning, and I'm going to care just as much about you as if you're an A-lister. Because being a data person and for my whole career, seeing the early people you know, or the early day to raise its hand, that's a passion thing for me. So, you know, I have a shirt that says number one Belieber because I was the first person in, you know, or one of the first people to obviously be a Bieber fan. I remember telling Taylor Swift, hey, kid, you're going to be a star. You know, more of a recent one would be like Alex Warren. I was like, this guy's amazing. Benson Boone. Sabrina Carpenter was a pet

project for a decade.

Okay, those are a lot of good names. What point are you hearing those acts?

Before anyone's heard them. It could be before they've even hit the mainstream.

Okay, but is it usually because someone gets a hold of you and say, I got something special, it's going to hit? Oh, yeah.

Well, a lot of times it could be the label. It could be the manager. Sometimes it could be I came across it online.

Okay, so sometimes you do come across it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it could be all over, right? An iHeartRadio. It could be anywhere, right?

Okay, but I interrupted you. You come across something and you go.

I'm like, this is special. Right. I actually have someone who works for me just to give you context of what we also do is every single week we analyze at least about a half a million songs across all genres. And we're looking for a certain trajectory or a certain kind of pop in a data that tells us this is something special. So it doesn't have to be your top 10 streaming song for me and my department. To be interested in something, it could be 500 on the streaming.

Just to be clear, the.

Data you're looking at, is that solely media base?

No, it's media base. It's Luminate. It could be chart metric.

It could be- Okay, so you go all the data you get. We're all over the place.

Any of the data we could get our hands on, we like to look at it. And then every week- We speak with all the different brand managers for the different formats and we basically present to them, hey, here's a lot of the data we're seeing. And by their direction, we've created reports of things the way they like to see it, what makes sense for them to want to move on something. So there's a ton of data analysis that's going on. So I like to joke that I like DM'd Miles Smith on Instagram. on Instagram was like, hey, do you have a manager? Like, you're amazing. So like a lot of these artists, we see them very early on.

It could be, again, just discovering it on our own or it could be someone plays a song and I'm like, whoa. But obviously data is a big piece of how I discover things. And then usually, you know, a lot of times our programming team might already know of that person as well. But if not, we'll bring it to one of them and say, hey, we're seeing something really special here.

I think this is something we should pay attention to. Then we monitor that artist. We track it. We talk to their team. We figure out what their plans are. And then, again, if collectively, from a data perspective, it looks good or sonically it looks good or The programmers see something special too. We'll do our best to come up with strategic plans of how we can roll that person out. Sometimes a person isn't ready for a radio single, but there's still something special about them and you know it.

So we might put them on like one of our smaller shows opening up for a bigger act or we might do a brand deal with them. We might have them come play in the office together. for advertisers hoping that something happens out of that. So there's a lot of different things we have in our toolbox that we try and work with artists at every possible level they're at.

So Alex, for instance, is a great one that it was long before Ordinary. It was Burning Down. We met him. We were like, he's special. He's someone that we want to get behind. He's someone we want to champion. So we got behind him very early on Burning Down. We stuck with that song on the radio and We made it into a hit, and that was right when Ordinary came out. We incorporated him in our shows. We really embraced him as an artist. And next thing you know, Ordinary comes out, and the rest is history.

Just to stop for one second. This is to the benefit of the IHAR stations. There is no cost to the act.

Right.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

It's a way for you to help business.

It's a win for everybody.

No doubt.

Definitely no charge. No, this is about you find artists that you believe in and you champion them and you get behind them.

How often do you, but, you know, sometimes you might be, hey, this is great, and then you might hear from a brand. Yeah. So could you tell us any stories where a brand got into something young that helped amplify it?

So a great example was Jax when Victoria's Secret was just starting to pop. So I knew it was popping. I knew it was going to go. I knew this song was going to be something. We had a brand come in that was a perfect fit for her. And I knew that I was, I had set up some things for her that she was going to, you know, react to her song for the first time on the radio.

We knew there was things that we were going to be able to do that. And I knew it was going to be minutes she was going to explode. So we partnered her with this brand. And sure enough, you know, the song took off. She exploded. It became a big thing. And the brand was thrilled because They wouldn't have even been able to afford her literally like two months later.

So that's a great opportunity when we're able to identify those songs and those artists right before they have that massive break. So the brand has a chance to get in and then again, ride that wave with the artists. Because the fans and the audience loves when they see a brand get in early. Because It's very easy to partner with Beyonce when she's Beyonce or partner with Taylor Swift.

But when you partner with a brand, I think Luke Bryan, I want to say it was Budweiser, is a great example where they got in really early. They supported him very early. And then as he became a megastar. They organically rode that wave of success with him, but his fan base knows that was a genuine organic partnership and that they, that brand supported their favorite artist really early on, which also creates an affinity from the consumer for that brand because it's their favorite artist.

In the last 30 years, Many people are fans of brands even more than they're fans of acts. The classic would be Apple, but there are other ones. Do any of those brands ever come to you and you go, this is like the greatest thing. We just got to get the right act because this act, if you're aligned with this act, you're going to go. Does that happen?

I think, yeah, I think it always happens, right? There's no, there's no, there's almost no brand. I mean, Apple's kind of an interesting thing, but even Apple, right, chooses music to use in their campaigns. They still want to align with the right artist, whether they pay them the same paycheck versus they're able to offer them a massive marketing opportunity.

That's a different conversation because that goes back to the original thing. The paycheck might not be as important if they can deliver your song to 500 million people or something, right? So- There's a benefit in that kind of— but there's almost no brand that isn't going to necessarily get the benefit of being with the right artist with the right campaign. Those— when they work, they can be incredible.

Okay. Alex, Warren, some of these acts, they're very Hot 100 pop-oriented. Can you tell us of any stories that don't fit that vertical?

Of success with a brand?

Yes.

Or— Or just in general.

No, no, I mean it's success with the brand. Let's just use an example. Jason Isbell isn't going to make a deal, and he's not going to have something in the Spotify top 50, but he has a very dedicated fan base, et cetera. Can you tell me about an act like that? When it's all said and done, they're not going to show up at the top of the chart, but there is a benefit. Yeah.

One of them, honestly, and anyone who listens to this and knows me is going to be like, here she goes. But Shinedown was a great example. This is a band that has an incredibly rabid fan base, but might not be the obvious band that a brand is going to think they need to be in business with. They had hot sauce. We partnered with the chain Smokey Bones, which is a barbecue chain. And we did a partnership with their hot sauce and Smokey Bones. The return, because again, they have such a rabid fan base, the hot sauce sold out in two weeks instead of four months. The entries for the contest exceeded anything that I'd ever seen, so much so that they gave me a $ 50, 000 donation to charity as an appreciation because they couldn't believe the results.

This is the band.

No, this is the brand. Smokey Bones added in a charity donation as part of this whole thing because they were so encouraged by the astronomical results.

Just so I know, Smokey Bones, Shinedown's got a hot sauce. Any cash involved or pure promotion?

It was a small amount of cash, but, you know, they— Okay. So— It was more about it was a good fit?

No, I get it. Good opportunity for both. What did the nuts and bolts look? How long campaign and what did Smokey Bones actually do?

So Smokey Bones incorporated the hot sauce into their restaurants. We created like a special menu that, you know, included the hot sauce. People were able to try it. They were they were selling that in the store. They did a contest where you got to fly and meet the band. We did a check presentation of the charity at one of their shows. We did social video. So they came to a Smokey Bones location and did a fun social video where they, you know, had the hot sauce on the wings. And so it was video. It was social.

It was contesting. It was product integration.

Okay. Smokey Bones. Do you have any idea how many Smokey Bones there are?

At the time, I want to say there was about 30.

Okay. So there are 30.

It was an East Coast chain. Okay. Yeah.

Any radio, TV, traditional advertising, print, any of that?

Radio advertising there was, obviously.

That's my question.

Oh, yeah.

So there was radio advertising.

Right, because the contest was part of the radio advertising.

How long did the campaign run?

It was a couple of months.

Couple of months. The campaign ends. Do they take the stuff off the menu?

Well, yeah, that was the deal.

No, no.

Yeah.

Okay. So... Where do you go from there if you're shinedown?

You know, you keep selling out arenas. I mean, it's not all brand deals. Most brand deals are at the longest a year unless they become a real multi-year full-blown ambassador deal. But a typical campaign is anywhere from... three months to six months on the long end a year. So that's not an atypical partnership at all.

Okay. Was the appeal, because the money was de minimis, was the appeal the promotion of the act or the promotion of the hot sauce to shine down?

Both. Probably more for them, probably, I'm going to say both, but the appeal, they had a new album, they're on a tour. I mean, it was a good win-win because they aligned very well with the tour market. So there was... giveaways in in the tour markets and stuff like.

That okay how did it come together.

That was that that one was one that was more proactive in you know seeing if somebody wanted a partner with the hot sauce so we reached out to a couple of um barbecue chains and they were like yeah and it was a great fit and you know it was it was a perfect audience fit and the markets aligned where they were playing and where they were popular with where they had stores. So it was just one of those that came together. But I guess the reason I use that as an example is you don't have to be the biggest name. Sometimes when you have a great following, you can actually get a bigger benefit from a smaller name with a more rabid following than a bigger name that their fan base, maybe they have more followers,

but that doesn't mean the fan base is going out To drive to a barbecue place to pick up the hot sauce.

Okay. When you go, since you were working on the Shinedown end, were you the person who hooked them up with Dem Bones? Smokey Bones? Yeah.

It was my team. I had a salesperson that's my partner.

I'm just interested. I'm Smokey Bones. There's a number. To me- You want me to print new menus and put all this stuff? That's, you know, were they like gung-ho? Yeah.

And like I said, this particular one exceeded expectations. That's why I think it was a good one. And I like using it as an example because you asked earlier, I mean, you know, I love Gavin DeGraw. He hasn't had a current radio single, but we've done some great partnerships with him, you know, where he'll do privates or do some kind of brand integration. So you don't always have to be in cycle. You don't always have to be the biggest name. You don't even have to be the most obvious format. I would say we've done things where there were bands I wasn't even really familiar with at first when we originally did the partnership, but they came and were interested and we found those bands and we put it together. So it can run the gamut.

You know, you have the obvious big names that everybody wants to be in business with, but the reality is almost nobody has the paycheck for those big names. So it really is great when you can find those people that are a real organic fit. They're affordable, but they actually are going to bring a bigger benefit than you expect because they still might have a really rabid fan base.

And that's what, that's really the most important part of this whole thing is, is can, are their fans going to engage and participate in this? Or are they just going to, do you just have a lot of fans, but they're not going to be active in this anyway? You want to find the ones where whatever their KPI is, is what's going to happen.

So- KPI for the audience at large.

Their delivery, like their goals, right? So if you're trying to sell tickets to a custom tour, you're going to want someone who's good at selling tickets. If it's about, you know, social engagement and virality, you're going to want someone with a big, you know, social following and great engagement.

If you're looking for PR, you might want that big name, right? So depending on what you're actually trying to accomplish at the end, We try and figure out who is the right person, how do they perform in that particular area, and are going to deliver the results that the brand wants.

Now, you told me, usually it starts with the brand side. Do you ever have an entity who has an act saying, I'm looking for a brand deal, and in reality, you tell yourself, no matter how much money you have, this act just isn't going to go.

Yeah, I guess to some degree. It's not, again, because I guess you would never say never. But certainly to your point, there are going to be times where it's just a much harder sell and you just, it's unlikely, right?

So you would actually tell them that?

I think so. I mean, I'm never here to waste anyone's time. I mean, I would probably talk it through with them and... you know, see if I thought there was anything that made sense. And even if it wasn't me, I might say, hey, you might want to think about doing blank. But yeah, I'm pretty honest. I mean, you don't want to waste anyone's time.

So we have Shinedown. We have Nile Rodgers. At this present moment, how many of those are in the back of your brain? We're saying, well, you know, I got those. There's an opportunity if I can... I'm not looking for a brand tomorrow, but like, you know, something comes across the transom. Always.

I have about eight of them right now in my email that I'm trying to figure out from beer brands to, you know, supermarkets. I mean, it runs the gamut.

Okay, that's that. How about the other side? Shine down now, Rogers. How many are you seeing? I'm sitting on people. They're good. and I'm waiting for the right fit. Do you have those people in your mind too?

I have people that like, I would joke like Charlie Puth and John Legend, I would almost bring them like a deal a year because they were just fantastic, right? I think Alex is fantastic because him and Cover are just marketing geniuses. They're really good, right? So you do, Brandy has been a huge partner of mine for a long time. We used to have a joke that Andy Grammer was always one of My favorites, and again, it depends on what the brand is and what they're trying to accomplish. When I identify people that are great to work with for brands, that, you know, we see great results when they partner with brands, those are the ones that obviously I'm always trying to look for something for them or they'll be on the top of the list

of people I'm going to recommend because I believe in them and I know they're going to deliver and I know everyone's going to be happy.

At the end. Let's say I'm a media-based customer. I'm paying. Am I getting any hand holding anything in addition to the numbers?

If you need it, yeah. I mean, at any given time, it might be someone's trying to figure out if their artist has achieved a particular goal, or they might want to, it might be a radio station that's looking for a very specific report on their competitor that for whatever reason we just don't have as a an ordinary report in the system. It might be more of a custom nature.

So we would absolutely.

If I'm a customer that would not be out of line for me to call you. I need a little help, whatever. Okay. You're based in New York. You're in LA. Why in LA?

Right now?

Yeah.

I have, I'm also the president of the board for city hope. So I came out here for our board meeting. And while I was out here, I said, let me do your podcast and see you. And I did. I mean, obviously, L.A. outside of New York is the second place that I obviously can do a lot of business. So when I came in for the board meeting, I just built meetings around it.

Generally speaking, how much traveling do you do? A lot. What what'll get you?

I was just in London with my podcast taping with Niall and an artist and. And I'm trying to think of where I came... Oh, then I was at iHeart Festival before that. Because I have dual roles... For media base, I work with every broadcasting company, every label, you know, so I could be going to a convention under the media base umbrella where I'm interacting with everybody.

What kind of convention?

Like CRS, Country Radio Seminar, or, you know, NAB. So sometimes I take the iHeart hat off. I'm neutral. I'm media-based. I'm making sure that I'm, you know, connecting with Odyssey and Cumulus and everybody else that's a customer. And so a generic, you know, convention might be great because I have a ton of, you know, clients that are at that.

And then I might put the iHeart hat back on and I go to iHeart Festival or a brand deal or, you know, something else that's an execution for, you know, a show we're doing with an artist or something. So because I'm on both sides, there's a lot of different things that I end up traveling for.

And if there's 52 weeks in a year, how often are you traveling?

Oh, I don't know. I mean, I guess it varies. There'll be quieter times. I'm going to say 20 or 30, enough to hit 1K. Okay.

That's important. Let's assume it's five o'clock in the evening and I call you up and I say, hey, it's a Tuesday night. I got a hot act playing at a club downtown. What are you going to say? You know, I love you. Been there, done that, or I'll be there. Tell me the time.

It's a great question that you ask because I talked to my husband about this. Early on in my career, I was at every single show for every artist till one in the morning. I've got a little more selective in what I want to go to, but I will never say no to somebody that I want to support and someone I care about. So sometimes it's not even about the act for me. It's about being loyal or being supportive to somebody that I feel I should. If they're a good friend or it's important to them that I be that.

Wait, wait, wait. We all operate that. If you're my friend, I'm going. Exactly. No problem. Exactly. But I'm trying to say, because it's a nature of hype and promotion.

I try and do as many as I can. No, no, no.

What I'm trying to say is, first, you're thrilled that we've been calling. Oh, yeah, of course I'll come. Right. Then do you get to the point where, oh, I'm out a lot. And for you to get me out on something, if you're not my friend, you're not calling, unless you're something really special, I'm sorry. Right.

It really then in that case, it's going to come down to because I'm still a music lover.

Right.

So if I love the music or I love the artist or I believe in it for whatever reason, then I'm still going to go out. Right.

But that's, you know.

If I don't know the person and I don't know the artist, I might not necessarily show up.

You mentioned the Jingle Ball. You've been involved 30 years. Yes.

I've been to every single New York Jingle Ball that has ever happened. I've not missed one.

I anticipated that. And I don't want to make it specifically about the Jingle Ball, but that's an annual event. Yep. Do you ever say, well, you know, December 12th, I'll be there. Or are you always, wow, Jingle Ball's coming up. I can't wait.

I always want to be there. It's amazing that it is still a day that I will not miss and enjoy being there.

What's the number one thing you've experienced at the Jingle Ball?

Well, I guess the number one thing would be when I was actually an intern and I was on stage at Jingle Ball as the intern of the show.

That's pretty good. Okay, number two.

I experienced riding in the van with Run Republic from Manhattan to... Jingle Ball. And it was, oh, I'm sorry, from New Jersey to Jingle Ball. And it was the first time they ever played Madison Square Garden. So that was an amazing moment for Ryan. And I love that I got to experience that. For me, I love that I've been able to see artists play Madison Square Garden for the first time ever. Or it's, again, because I am so passionate about the early development and watching the journey and hopefully when I can being part of the journey.

When you get to see that person that, you know, eight months ago or even a year ago that you met that nobody even knew existed and now you see them playing on stage at Jingle Ball, that never gets old for me. I love it.

Okay. Let's assume you're around talent. There are certain rules. You're going to know the man. You're going to know somebody who's the handler. And let's just assume for whatever, they have a high profile, but you don't personally know them. Are you going to wait for the moment or are you going to go up and introduce yourself?

In most cases, I'll introduce myself. If I think there's going to be a moment that their handler is going to make happen, then obviously I'll wait for the moment. But if I really love the person and I don't know how else I'm getting the moment, I'll go for it.

And to what degree are the people receptive?

Most are receptive, especially, again, let's put it in the context of it's an iHeart event and I'm an iHeart executive.

Right, right.

I was just going to say, so you lead with that. So I lead with that. And so I don't know that I've ever encountered a rude experience.

Well, you find, you know, you find people who are just like deer in the headlights.

In a lot of cases, yeah. In a lot of cases, I have... probably met that because, again, I'm very involved with the programming team and with the labels on, you know, in all the different roles that I typically hold. So I usually am in the very early meetings and we meet the artists early. So it's very rare that I'm a total stranger to somebody. That being said, if it's a really mass, if it's Paul McCartney playing I Heart Festival and I've never met Paul and I'm like fainting because Paul McCartney standing over there, that might be a case where he doesn't know who I am. But I would probably shoot my shot if I saw the opportunity, or I wouldn't bother him if I felt like. I also want to be careful that I'm not annoying someone

at one of our events, and that makes their experience less pleasant. So I try and balance what makes sense to do versus I'll hate myself if I don't take this moment.

Okay, you're showing up at Jingle Balls as a part of the team, but generally speaking, you show up at a show. Are you working? Are you making sure, okay, I'm servicing this person because I know they're paying. I know that person, they're not paying. I'll go chat them up.

I'm not working from that perspective as much as I'm working in the sense of making sure people feel good, making sure they feel appreciated that they're there. You know, if there's a problem that they have that for whatever reason, you know, I'm there when they need help with something. So I'm working in the sense of making sure everyone's happy, but I'm not working, working. Like to your point, I'm not trying to sell. I'm not trying to worry about the client aspect. It's more about I've been around for so long and I've worked so closely with these people.

There's a blur between even friend and client at this point. My mom used to ask me when I was going away, are you going for business or pleasure? And I would say both because how do you even say you're only working and you're not enjoying yourself at Jingle Ball or iHeart Festival, some of the most extraordinary music experiences that we get to attend, right? So to me, I don't even look at it at work.

So what time do you wake up?

Probably about 7, give or take.

And what time do you turn off the phone, so to speak?

Never. If I'm awake.

No, no. Okay.

If I'm awake, I'm answering.

Okay. But let's just, I don't know, everybody's life is different, but email is such.

Like I don't refuse to answer past a certain time. If I'm conscious, I'm looking at the phone and if I can answer and I see it, I'm answering.

How about phone ever ring in the middle of the night? really.

Maybe a couple of times in my life there's been emergencies, but not really.

What time?

Weekends, nights. I mean, with media base, it rings a lot on the weekend. My husband jokes that I could be up at three o'clock in the morning making sure someone got their number one or, you know, because a lightning bolt hit a station somewhere in the Midwest and it disrupted the audio. And we don't know if that's going to cost someone a number one. And You know, so there are times like that that there are emergencies.

So I would say because of the nature of the chart and the fact that it ends on a Saturday night and then there's things that happen on Sunday, I definitely do a lot on Saturdays and Sundays when needed and late at night if necessary, but not always.

Okay. So what time, assuming you don't have to go out to an event, What time does work stop on a weekday? Never.

Not really.

Okay.

Again, some nights are better than others, right? I guess, you know.

Okay. But for me— You're working— I' m not judging because we're all doing the same thing.

Exactly. This isn't a job. It's a lifestyle, right? Right.

Exactly. So— It's 24-7. What does your husband do for a living?

He does live event production, so.

He's— So did you meet him at an event?

I did not. I met him on Match.com, believe it or not.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How long ago was this?

This is 14 years.

14 years ago was.

I saw a handsome man on Match.

I want to go a little— Okay. So you decide you're looking for somebody. Was Match the first service you used? No.

Okay, so I had gone through a breakup, and I was crying over it.

Just to be clear, how long had that relationship gone on?

A couple of months.

Oh, okay.

And I'm older at this point.

Right.

Kind of had a crush on this guy. I spent months crying, and we were just laughing about this the other day because, like, artists would come in and play songs, and I would be like, oh, I love that song. And they'd be like, if we have to hear about your stupid breakup one more time. It was really becoming a thing, so... And spontaneously one night I'm speaking to the brother of the guy that broke up with me and he mentioned Match.com and I said, you know, everybody's kind of sick of this breakup. I'm going to have to move on. I'm just going to give this a whirl.

I'm going to look on Match.com. And I don't know how seriously I was taking it, but my husband pops up, and he's playing a guitar in the photo. And I think to myself, well, I work in radio. Is he a musician? I don't know. Maybe he's going to like I see he likes music. This could be good. So I send one sentence. Hey, it looks like you like music.

So do I. I don't post pictures, but if you want one, I'll send it. He was about to delete the because there was no picture and he was about to delete it. But he's like, well, you didn't like write. Hey, baby, XOXO. There was nothing weird about it. So he was like, why no picture? We got into a very funny conversation about online dating and the tortures of it. And we spoke for about a week. We met up. We were engaged six months, married by 11. 14 years later, he is the greatest gift ever.

Okay. Event production at what level?

He's done stuff for iHeart. He's done stuff for Pepsi.

He's a stage manager?

He's an audio video. Mostly he's like a sound guy. But he's a little bit more of a project manager, a producer at this point because he'll hire out different teams. But he ran events at the Harvard Club in New York for a long time. So he's done a lot of corporate. He's done music.

Where is he in the age group?

He's two years older than me. We're age appropriate.

And so because he's in this world, he's comfortable with your lifestyle.

Yes. I joke he's Canadian, very laid back, the easiest person, and a blessing because he supports me in everything I do and allows me to 100% be myself. I take him a lot on travel when he's able to as independent contractor. I don't like to be without him, but... I could go off. You know, he never— he' s just super supportive, and I appreciate that about him because he just lets me be me, and I'm a lot.

Okay. I know a lot of Canadians go to Canada at least once a year. What do I know about Canadians? They're very verbal. Is your husband very verbal?

Verbal in what sense?

He's— Well, you're very verbal. And usually, the reason I ask, too very verbal doesn't work. So I say he must be more of a listener.

Okay, so I'm an ambivert. Okay, so right now you think I'm an extrovert.

Wait, wait, wait. You're a what?

I'm an ambivert.

I don't know what that means. I'm an introvert.

Extrovert all in one person.

Okay. Just explain what that is and how you are.

Meaning I could be deathly shy and like so uncomfortable with public speaking, with being in certain rooms. And then I could be the most outgoing, friendly, talkative, loud person at the same time.

Okay. Where does, where is the switch? Assuming you're in the introvert mode, is it Like for me, I'll have a lot of anxiety. And then once I get there, it could be great. Same. Okay. So it's the same.

It could be both. Again, I haven't slept for days panicking about whether or not I would be able to have a good conversation or if I would choke because I get like something like this would typically.

Make me nervous.

But we're having the greatest time, right? So you wouldn't know that about me.

Based on the degree I know you, the fact that you would even think that. I mean, you know, again, I'm not saying you didn't think it, but you of all people should not be worried about that.

But, you know, he is a little bit more reserved. He doesn't talk just to talk, but he's a great conversationalist. And he's someone who's genuinely interested and interesting. We travel and we will be in a cab and he can talk to anyone about art and politics. And I'm like, how does he know all these things? So I respect that about him. a great balance to me in that a lot of times the light is on me and it's about, I heard Melissa and I'm, you know, he's in the shadow. And then other times he's stepping up and he, I call him a human support animal. And he's the one that, making sure the conversation's going well and, you know, he's a perfect companion. So we're a good balance to each other because he'll talk when he needs to.

He doesn't talk just to talk. And I'm the loud one and I'm very, you know, but we balance each other.

I consciously didn't want children because I didn't want to get diverted from the path. What was your view on children?

I wanted them, but they... But not so much that I was going to do it if it wasn't the right situation. And then I just got married later in life and it just didn't happen for me.

Okay. Yeah. So you've achieved a ton. Is there a next step in the ladder?

Sure. You know, I didn't think there was a next step, and the fact that I just got the president title was a dream come true. So for me, that was the next step. I don't know that there's really CEO or COO, and I'm not really sure that's something I'm going for. I'm very happy with where I am, and I love what I do, so I don't know that there's.

A next step. Let's say a headhunter came, and they say, you know, headhunter's looking to fill a role. And they say, you know, I have a company, Fortune 500 company. I'm going to pay you more. I'm going to pay you like 50 to 75 percent more. But it's not music. Is that a that means it's a nonstarter or let me hear your pitch?

I would probably hear the pitch and then politely decline again. So if we want to go back to my history, I was. you know, still scraping change off the floor of my car. And I was offered an incredible job that was way, way more money and definitely way more prestige. And this is very, very early on in my career.

But I loved the premiere. I loved my bosses. I loved what I was doing. So we were much smaller. When I started, it was 12 people in the New York office. Now you know how big of a company we are. And my boss at the time, Craig, was like, so when are you leaving? And I said, well, I'm not. And he's like, well, what do you mean? Like, we'll never be able to pay you that or pay you that anytime soon. I said, it's OK. I just love it here so much that I'm not going to go.

And at that moment. I think it was such a shock to him that I wasn't taking the job, but it was such a statement to him that I think from there on forward, I ended up making that much times a lot more than I ever thought. And it was all because I think the loyalty and the fact that early on, I made the decision. I try and tell this to interns and people too. At the end of the day, money is great, but there's so many other factors that have to go into your happiness and your fulfillment. And so- I never in my career made the decision on money. I made it on gut and heart and loyalty and other factors. And I don't know if that was smart or not, but thankfully it worked out for me.

Was that other job a radio job?

It was a little outside. It was like with one of the trades, but it was like to take over. It was still in the industry, but it wasn't quite.

So you're going to do this till you die?

I don't know until I die, but certainly I'll keep doing it as long as it makes sense to do it.

I love it.

I feel so blessed that I'm 32 years in and I wake up every day and I'm still, and I'm not saying this in hopes that Bob Pittman's listening to this or Tom Pullman. I mean this so genuinely. I love what I do. I love the people I do it with. I think the people are a big thing. Like I have, friends, employees, people I work with that are family to me. So because I've been it's very rare to be in one place your entire career. So I just feel very blessed that every day is a different thing. There's always our company's always evolving. There's new initiatives.

So I'm never bored. I'm always doing something different and I still love everyone I work with and everything I do. So for me, I don't I've gotten offers over the years. But when I sat back and thought about it, I was like, I don't I don't know where else I would be happier than I am now.

OK, you talk that you felt rock was underrepresented. Can you tell us about any trends that you see coming forward?

What's old is new. There's a lot of things happening right now with AI. It's starting to actually turn the trend. I think radio is actually becoming more important again and more sought out because people are at a point where they don't know what to trust anymore. They don't know what's real. They don't know what they're reading if it's true.

So because we're that trusted source and we're that, you know, you can't, create a relationship with an algorithm, but you can create a relationship with a person. And I think a lot of the listeners look at Elvis Duran as their friend. They look at Bobby Bones. They look at Ryan Seacrest. They look at a lot of our local personalities as their friend. So I'm seeing a tide of people turning away from, like we're seeing the younger generation doing a little bit less on social media and being a little more hesitant about AI. And they want to come to a place where they can actually trust the source, trust that a human is giving them the information. So That's one trend I think is interesting. Cassette tapes are

having a little bit of a— and CDs.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

CDs are having a little bit more of a resurgence.

The cassette thing, okay. A, it was a flawed medium from the get-go.

I get it.

Okay. Secondly, somebody sent me a cassette, and it was inside. It was actually a Prince recording. You have nowhere to play it, right? a very, I had state of the art. Oh, I love it. You know, 35 years old. And I said, oh, I'm fired. And then it broke. But then I said, this is a crazy thing. I was out of town.

I came back and you get all the mail and I'm hearing this sound. I don't really know what the hell's going on. I can't figure it out. Finally, I tracked it down. It's in the box. So I opened up the box, and it was a Walkman with an unreleased tape that had a speaker, not every Walkman. It just cracked me up. I couldn't figure out what the thing was. Now, I am a hoarder, okay?

Me too.

And then I said, you know, this is it. I'm going to toss it, okay? It was then six months. I got this other thing, and I said, well, I guess I shouldn't have tossed it, but. Who's got a cassette player?

Not a lot of people. But to your point, people are going out and buying. CDs are probably a little bit more than cassette, to be honest. And vinyl is hot.

But my point is there's commerce there.

Yeah.

But I believe a lot of that is souvenirs as opposed to a listening device. I think it's a.

Souvenir, but it's also a listening experience. I think, again, the younger generation is discovering the joy of opening up and reading the liner notes and the sound of that, you know, the little crackle of a vinyl. Like it is a different sound and it's a different experience. And so I think, you know, we're seeing a trend even in songs where it's like 10 year intervals. So what's trends that were hot in 2016 are kind of coming back now.

Give me an example.

Hairstyles, clothes, songs, bands, like Some of the music from 2016 is like just having a big resurgence. So it's just like every 10 years, things that like trends kind of start recycling again. So you'll see a lot of the trends online of people like sharing. Here's my 2016 and here's my 2026. So it's just like what's old is new is kind of coming back. Global music is a big thing now. I think music is becoming more of a global thing and not just a territory thing.

So we're seeing a trend in that. Country is still big and exploding. Afrobeats is a growing genre. Just trying to think if there's anything else. I think also rock to some degree is having a resurgence. Not that it ever went away, but I think a lot of those legacy heritage bands.

Are— And one of the things, I think all the rock acts talk such shit about the streamers that the audience doesn't embrace it, which of course to me, that's how you get paid, you know?

But they sell a lot of merch and they sell vinyl still.

You don't have to convince me. And that's, as I say, there's certain basics. And if they went back to the basics, I could, you know, sometimes you put this stuff on and you go, wow, this sounds like so foreign. It sounds so good. It's like it would be a breath of fresh air. Okay. You are so upbeat, effusive, articulate.

You ever get depressed?

You're very nice. Sure, but not a lot. Um, I lost both my parents. I don't have either of them. But I always say, thank you, Sandy. My mother just was one of those people that there was no drama. You know, I could have the deepest cunt. She's like, oh, please, it's nothing like she. She was so, and in my older age, I so appreciate, I didn't understand it when I was younger, but as I got older, I appreciated that I really don't sweat the small stuff. So if I, like anyone else, I'm going to have a bad day, I might be upset or depressed or stressed or whatever, but I try and put a cap on it and I don't let it consume me. So for whatever reason, she gave me an incredible... My husband's like, I don't

really drink either. I'm not a big drinker. He's like, I've never seen anyone who can deal with that much stress and then just go to sleep at night and deal with everything and never have any.

I was going to ask that because I can't. Yeah.

And he's fascinated by it. But for some reason, thank you, Sandy Pollack, she gave me some kind of ability to deal with stress and stuff and and and have a perspective on the world that is positive and not let the small things kind of okay.

Let's assume it's 7 30 at night for some reason phone's not getting a lot of incoming are you going to sit there and say oh you know i'll sit i'll watch tv i'll read a book are you going to say Got to get some action. Let me call somebody. Let me do something.

I can relax a little bit.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's more that I'm available to you if you need me. But if nothing's incoming.

Let me ask it a different way. This is probably never going to happen, but I'm setting it up. You come to the end of the week, you have nothing booked Saturday and Sunday.

I'm happy.

You know, it's so rare. I understand you're happy. Right. But okay, it's Saturday, put it around the house. You're going to be happy, but are you going to wake up Sunday and go, I'm ready to go back at it.

Yeah, I like to your point, I'm definitely somewhat of a workaholic. So I do. I used to say to my mom, I work hard, I play hard, I rest hard. So, you know, there are times where I need the break and I'm happy to literally be in my pajamas Saturday and Sunday. But there's only so much downtime I can take before I get the itch and I need to get back in the action.

So what do you spend your money on?

Food, travel. Probably food and travel.

So where have you been that's interesting?

I've been to... I think we're up to 55 unique countries. 55?

55. Okay. That's a good number of countries. Have you consistently gone to different countries or only in the last like 10 or 15 years?

The last 14 since I got married. Do you want to hear the sad story, the real story? So... I got married. I get married super quick. Within five months of.

I'm just interested. When you got married, were your parents still alive? Yes.

So that's where we're going with this. So we get married. I come home for my honeymoon and my father has been diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. He's gone within five months of the wedding. So coming up on the first season of holidays, I do not want to be anywhere in my normal state. So I started... taking us to Paris for Thanksgiving. I would want to be literally on the other end of the world for any holiday because that was my medicine at the time of just not wanting to notice he wasn't there. So it started this giant chain of us going to travel for the first couple of years because that was really my healing process of dealing with the loss of my dad. But then it became... it became a thing for us. And

then we just realized we love traveling. And then we, so we spent up until the pandemic, like every holiday I would be in some other country and I would usually try and do different, like sometimes Paris, London, some of the obvious ones that had to do business, whatever. Those were repeat, but I would try very much to see a new country as often as I could. And I love it.

Okay. There's Europe. Scandinavia.

South Africa is one of the best ever.

My question is, where have you been a little bit more beaten off the beaten path? So South Africa.

South Africa. I wouldn't say Croatia is off the beaten path. I'm trying to think off the beaten path. Canary Islands. We just went to the Azores. You know, to your point, the country might not be off the beaten path, but I don't. I'm not like a normal person who will get on a tour bus and go look at churches and be with the crowd. I will have us helicopter into a winery in New Zealand. I will ride elephants.

I will walk with lions. I am putting together these crazy experiences. I will take us to some small town in the middle of you know, whatever country, because there's like a cool restaurant or something there. So I've been to a lot of, I don't know that I can single out, but a lot of small towns in Italy, you know, I've just, I really- Well.

55 countries, a lot of countries.

Yeah. So you've been to more than Europe. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I've been to, I'm six continents, so I have to do Antarctica. Haven't done Antarctica yet. So that's, we got to get that one in.

Okay. Okay. So Antarctica is on your list.

Yeah, got it. Just because I need to finish the seven continents at this point.

What else is on your list?

Um, I, I need to now do a little bit of like Poland. Um, I regret that I had a chance at Russia and didn't do it. So, and I also very much regret, um, we had a trip booked to Israel and my husband had back surgery and we ended up not being able to go. And that was right before October 7th. And so obviously I have not tried to go back, but I regret not ever getting to see that. Um, trying to think what else.

Okay. Some of these more, you've been to South America. Yeah. Where?

Buenos Aires, Brazil, Uruguay.

And all of them, none of them were, you know, you worked for it, but it wasn't work. You say, I want to go there. Actually, you know, I've been to Rio. I've been to a few places. but Colombia.

Blew my mind because everybody.

I was with had a family member killed. Oh, no. It was really wild. But, okay, Asia, you've been to China.

China, Japan.

All that stuff. Yeah, Hong Kong.

Not Vietnam, so that's another one. I have to do Vietnam, Laos, like that kind of area right there.

Wow, sounds great. Okay, I'll let you off. Let you go back to work.

Maybe five hours isn't long enough for us to talk.

No, no, no, but... This has been great.

Thank you so much for having me.

No, no, I mean, I knew you would be good and you delivered.

Well, thank you.

Because, you know, first of all, you never know what... Some people get mic fright. Very rare, but it happens. You know, people can talk all the time and they put them in front of a mic, they can't. And then other people, no, you say, well... You know, if you're interviewing a heritage musician, you go deep into every album, et cetera. Other people said, well, you know, how many points are there? So I was a little anxious, too.

I said, I know she's a good talker. I was very anxious. But what if it doesn't go? What am I going to tell you as well?

I think our little... Our conversation at, you know, the studio... Right, Henson or whatever they're calling it. Henson Studios. I knew we had a good rapport. But still, I have stage fright and mic fright. I look like I'm easy at this. I was. So nervous, though. I'm glad it worked out for both of us.

Unjustifiably, you were really great.

Well, thank you. It's been awesome.

Till next time, this is Bob Lefsetz.

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