How Construction Pros Can Fight Code Copyright to Unlock Innovation and Access with Scott Reynolds

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: On this week's show, what a building codes and the changes in SEO mean the construction, a special news episode with Scott Reynolds from UpCode. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we're back. [SPEAKER_01]: We threw this one together quickly. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott's on kind of the start of a vacation Nathan's in the middle of a vacation and and I'm on a staycation.

0:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm back at home, which for me is a vacation from the road. [SPEAKER_01]: So for those those roadwares, this is a vacation from the road for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, where are you joining in from today, man? [SPEAKER_01]: I call you from from home. [SPEAKER_01]: So just north of San Francisco and mill valley.

0:46 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, mill valley. [SPEAKER_01]: You are back home. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. [SPEAKER_01]: You were [SPEAKER_01]: You were traveling before, but you're back home now. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, got in nine two a.m. [SPEAKER_00]: the last night, just a little bit of a delay from our flight back from New Jersey.

0:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody knows delays these days. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know, that's like the norm now. [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan, where are you coming to? [SPEAKER_01]: It's from this morning, man. [SPEAKER_01]: I am up at ten thousand feet in Breckenridge, Colorado. [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, just uh, sucking all my airs, uh, much like hand, and uh, trying to, yeah, participate so.

1:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Happy to be here. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm glad to get both of you together to sit down. [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be a really interesting news episode, but before we get into it, follow us on the socials. [SPEAKER_01]: Check us out on YouTube.com for slash at the content crew to learn more and to get the shorts.

1:29 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, thanks guys, you're out there. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm seeing the signups. [SPEAKER_01]: Go, go, go. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to sit down. [SPEAKER_01]: We're calling this a news episode because I was sitting down with the team from up code. [SPEAKER_01]: So you guys know truth and transparency here on the show.

1:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And we got into two discussions. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, wait, why are we having these discussions here? [SPEAKER_01]: We should bring this to the masses. [SPEAKER_01]: Get Scott back on. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to know about the history of up codes and who they are and what they are, go back and listen to the episode.

1:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But for those who are driving now and are like really Jeff, you want me to go back and listen. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have time. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, get us up to date like the quick who is up codes. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the thing we've been dealing with and we'll get into why we're back together?

2:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure, sure thing. [SPEAKER_00]: So from a very high level, at up codes, we bring together a lot of the building codes, plumbing codes, fire codes, put that together into one platform and just make it easily searchable and accessible that anyone in the industry or out of the industry can see.

2:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So as it turns out, it's been a little bit of a contentious topic. [SPEAKER_00]: Can can different organizations, the SDOs, that convened the committees, can they copyright the code? [SPEAKER_00]: So we've always had the stance that the public needs free access and open access to actually understand their legal requirements.

2:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But over the last twenty plus years now, there's been a legal fight. [SPEAKER_00]: Can people cooperate the laws? [SPEAKER_00]: Can they can the own and [SPEAKER_00]: like think about how people access and basically put a bottleneck in front of those code. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of like the high level overview.

2:59 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been litigating it for nearly ten years now. [SPEAKER_00]: Other organizations and public interest groups have also been litigating it a little longer than we have. [SPEAKER_00]: And over time, the courts have always started to side of saying, no, you can't copyright the law. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, as we fight that out in the court, and the legal system, a lot of the SDOs have started to kind of try a new tactic.

3:24 [SPEAKER_00]: They've tried to go around the American legal system, go to Congress, introduce a bill, saying, oh, an access and copyright after things have become the law. [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of context that push in Congress. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it started nearly four years ago. [SPEAKER_00]: It failed the first Congress.

3:43 [SPEAKER_00]: They tried to fail the second Congress and now they've just reintroduced it into the third Congress. [SPEAKER_01]: which is why we sat down to get together. [SPEAKER_01]: STO is the standards development organizations, just so people who know our little acronyms out there. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not some new BIM, VDC and STO.

4:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a standards development organizations. [SPEAKER_01]: And to go a little deeper, like these standards development organizations do spend a lot of money and a lot of time in developing these things along the way. [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of their side of like, you know, this is what they've developed.

4:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's their IP, et cetera. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where things get interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Bigel make a quick point there. [SPEAKER_00]: So the codes are actually written by volunteers. [SPEAKER_00]: These are industry professionals, architects, engineers, people from construction or government officials.

4:35 [SPEAKER_00]: They come together, they draft proposals, they actually write the content of the codes. [SPEAKER_00]: The SDOs convene the committees that actually write the codes. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is a very important distinction. [SPEAKER_00]: These codes are written by volunteers. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's both.

4:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a difference between organizations. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we know a lot of them smacked in and other trade organizations in FPI and there, you know, being one that's mentioned a lot, the fire protection. [SPEAKER_02]: But they are both member organizations as that, that right standards as opposed to, I know, when I just Googled this pro-co-dact, the first thing that pops up is the ICC, the National Code Council, [SPEAKER_02]: that really like the primary job is code themselves, right?

5:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So I would put them at a different category, then say a trade organization that produces standards that then become code or maybe I'm missing, it's apples in order to Scott, but like because to me that there is some nuance there for our group of like the differences between the soul, like in it for just the codes versus trade orgs that produce it on behalf of their member orgs and then at some point, you know, they may get adopted by by law.

5:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I think cutting across them all, it's all these committees and volunteers coming together whether it's a trade organization or just public volunteers writing the code. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a common through line through all the different organizations. [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say, like, would you look at something like ICC?

5:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's something like fifteen or twenty percent of the revenue comes from publication sales. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of people think of them as kind of producing the code and the revenue comes from selling the code. [SPEAKER_00]: But it turns out the lion's share of the revenue actually comes from all this surrounding services.

6:15 [SPEAKER_00]: They offer like accreditation and training building product certification. [SPEAKER_00]: So our testing, I should say. [SPEAKER_00]: So the lion's share of that revenue actually comes from the surrounding pieces around the actual code. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that just, you know, cherries or changes for the organization.

6:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Just to use, I see as an example, it's actually a quite a diverse set of revenue streams. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I made my question, I could say again, I'm just going to put on the trade contractor hat and kind of, you know, a lot of what they produces is for their folks and I don't know how much control they have over whether or not something gets chosen to be public or not.

6:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess, yeah, if I'm, you know, I'm going to empathize with them for one second here, I think my question would be like, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as it was anything because I think it needs to be public domain and Jeff, we're having this debate offline. [SPEAKER_02]: I've like, once something becomes law, it becomes public, but it's almost like if I'm a private company and I go public, I IPO, like it's still like company, but I have a way less control over it.

7:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, I'm trying to draw the parallel in this situation of like, what is the right, a appropriate amount of, it should be freely accessible to all, and you should be able to do and manipulate and use it as such. [SPEAKER_02]: But they did create it, so there should be, you know, something for it.

7:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, just playing devil's advocate. [SPEAKER_02]: But there's probably an argument of both sides. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a great question. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for us, it really comes down to what is the law and what's not the law. [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of kind of standards or guides that do not carry the force of law.

7:55 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you could [SPEAKER_00]: get criminal or civil fines and charges for something the government imposes on you as an individual. [SPEAKER_00]: You could be an architect, an engineer, no G.C. [SPEAKER_00]: or you could be a homeowner or a developer. [SPEAKER_00]: But if the government at the federal level at the state level is saying you we mandate this, you must follow this or it's illegal if you don't.

8:19 [SPEAKER_00]: In some cases, like unfortunately, in some of the really bad fires, like that was criminal. [SPEAKER_00]: People were charged criminally for these things. [SPEAKER_00]: And if there's text that the government imposed on you, like it's just our belief that a citizen should be able to read that.

8:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we shouldn't have, or we shouldn't grant monopolies to people for the text that were legally bound by. [SPEAKER_00]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: to go back like not everything is, you know, carries legal weight. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things out there that don't, you know, CSI specifications is to come to mind like that, that is not as far as I know, but the most of that's not adopted into law, that's something you opt into.

8:57 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, you know, we're writing our specs, we're doing product research. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to follow CSI, but got guidelines, or they're, [SPEAKER_00]: organization and categories. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's like an interesting example, you know, Sony that's not the law, something that is the law, it's you have to have a fire sprinkler in here, or you can't build that building, or you, or then Spectrum won't give you, give you side off.

9:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, that's the kind of clear distinction. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I like the distinction because it's it's what what's law and criminal needs to be accessible because there's also this layer of who can access it and you kind of set it in there like it can be a homeowner all the way up to giant organizations that have the [SPEAKER_01]: people power to process and consume and stay on top of this.

9:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that the law is supposed to be fair and accessible to all. [SPEAKER_01]: if we're intended to follow it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the difference. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not saying that you're taking away that lion's share. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just saying we're making this digitally accessible to more people.

10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's quite far more small contractors and small home builders and et cetera. [SPEAKER_01]: And they need access to it. [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't currently have as ease. [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes it a little unbalanced. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what, I got the better analogy now for it is it's about the trademark law.

10:26 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Kleenex has probably the bad example because they actually are able to unlock a lot of the trademark. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like once you get to that point where it's so genericized, yeah, it becomes public domain, you lose it. [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I'm with you.

10:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you that at the end of the day, it should be open. [SPEAKER_02]: And it is public domain because it's law and that they can choose like CSI to say, no, we're going to stay in the contract spectrum and not go into the legal domain. [SPEAKER_02]: But once you're allowing yourself an illegal domain, you're putting it up to making it public.

10:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I agree with your argument. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think if you could be on the receiving end of a fine or a jail sentence, you should probably be able to understand what the requirement was upstream. [SPEAKER_00]: Like you should probably understand what you're bound by. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a really interesting example is the accessibility board at the federal level.

11:16 [SPEAKER_00]: So they think about wheelchair accessibility and buildings. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they did do a lot of [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of different focuses one of being the ADA standards, but they specifically say they're like, our intention is to make a safer world and more accessible built environment.

11:30 [SPEAKER_00]: We want you to spread the code spread the code as much as possible. [SPEAKER_00]: In the beginning of the publication where you typically see the copyright claims that they say no no, our objective is just to make make buildings more accessible. [SPEAKER_00]: The more people that know the rules, talk the rules, build tools and top of this, the better buildings we're going to have at the end of the day.

11:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's ultimate goal. [SPEAKER_00]: We want to save for environment. [SPEAKER_00]: These codes do have really important thing, fire codes, building codes, lecture because they're incredibly important for safety and the quality of our buildings. [SPEAKER_00]: But for that exact reason, we all need to be able to understand what they are, apply them and think about tools.

12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Jeff, just to go off, saying he said, like, years talk about the importance of free access. [SPEAKER_00]: I very much agree, free access is critical, but free access, we consider like the foundation. [SPEAKER_00]: That's just the base. [SPEAKER_00]: Ideally, people can get in there and read the text, but even better is if we have tools built on top of that.

12:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Automated tools that can get in there and just make it a lot easier for people to understand of requirements. [SPEAKER_00]: We do a lot of that work, but there could be a lot more done for different areas of the code. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's a lot of places where this is going on. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not in the, you know, this specific domain alone.

12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's in a lot of other areas to try to speed up and understand and make sense of data that exists in the public, in the public world. [SPEAKER_01]: The difference here is that somebody's trying to kind of control the ability to build those tools and to do those things for everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people do need to understand that like, [SPEAKER_01]: The codes themselves are built in such a way to create that safety, to create that better environment, better built world.

13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So if there's so much harder to get to, it's going to prevent us from building at the level that we should because we don't have access to it. [SPEAKER_01]: And also, let's just be honest, like the SDOs are going through [SPEAKER_01]: an evolution and a disruption in some respects, like it's supposed to be an evolution, a disruption in my mind here, the Procodes Act is them trying to prevent a disruption.

13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you fight something to the end, you will be disrupted. [SPEAKER_01]: You have the opportunity, and this is going on in construction as well, how many people still fight technology in construction and building [SPEAKER_01]: new different ways and evolving. [SPEAKER_01]: The SDOs have to evolve to continue to maintain their businesses.

13:58 [SPEAKER_01]: They have to continue to maintain, but they've got to get ahead of and evolve with this process in order to stay relevant. [SPEAKER_01]: This is just, this is how life goes, right? [SPEAKER_01]: These were, you know, pieces of paper and books, like you said originally, and now we got the internet thing and now they're on the internet.

14:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Now we have AI, now we have APIs, like, [SPEAKER_02]: This is an evolution. [SPEAKER_02]: The Forbes article said it. [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, Scott, I want to get your point on what the Forbes article said about, I think more or less my interpretation was that having that sort of paywall is going to bottleneck innovation.

14:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to curtail opportunities to do things because it's going to restrict that. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's essentially the core of the argument, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, I just want to go back really quickly to something Jeff said about the evolution and potential destruction.

14:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I think from our perspective, there actually has been little disruption. [SPEAKER_00]: So you look at ICC. [SPEAKER_00]: They've been fighting this battle in the courts for twenty years now. [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been losing for twenty years. [SPEAKER_00]: They lose every single time.

15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And against others against against us. [SPEAKER_00]: But despite that, the revenue grows every year, year on year. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you look at the graph, it's up until the right. [SPEAKER_00]: So ten years ago, they were making right around fifty million in revenue. [SPEAKER_00]: Today, they make over a hundred million.

15:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Their CEO gets paid ten times in national average of a not-profit CEO. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they do like to talk about the difficulty of, you know, in the future, if the copyright's lost, well, so guess what, that the car's already made that ruling in. [SPEAKER_00]: You're literally making more money than you ever have, and the graph is up into the bright.

15:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I'm not sure how much disruption there is here, because all, like, you look at it at a pay, same thing, graph up and up into the right, making more money than they ever have. [SPEAKER_00]: These are all their tax filing, so you can, you can go through the nine, nine decent.

15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: see all the revenue breakdown. [SPEAKER_00]: So just to kind of point that out, you know, I don't think it's like history has shown that it's not as disruptive as they like to claim. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I mean is it's not. [SPEAKER_01]: It really isn't. [SPEAKER_01]: But they're fighting and as though it will be and you know, they're kind of they're fighting over this little piece instead of understanding that since they're up into the right, there's gotta be ways if they took all that money that they spent trying to prevent it.

16:19 [SPEAKER_01]: and invest it in how to make it better, accessibility wise, but then maximize the continued profit on it. [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're up into the right would be even more. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. [SPEAKER_00]: And you're talking about advancements in AI and and always different areas if the focus went into innovation.

16:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's let everyone have free access to to the underlying content to what is the law they should access that with all these things you could build on top of it and and eight that's why you're [SPEAKER_00]: You're mentioning like the potential bottleneck on innovation. [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much potential here.

16:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are we fighting about just public access to these adopted laws? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's a real shame. [SPEAKER_00]: I could go out for a while, but I think there has been a huge amount of stifling of innovation in the space. [SPEAKER_02]: When I love your point about just go look up their tax filings is like, yeah, the truth shall set you free, right?

17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you can say one thing, but the end of the day, your tax filings are going to say another. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and that's an interesting thing here too, Nathan, because to go to one of your earlier analogies, when you're a private company, your books are your books. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can cook them however you want.

17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, there's some legal things you've got to be careful of. [SPEAKER_01]: What not, filing taxes, all that kind of thing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But nobody can really subpoena your tax records for a private organization. [SPEAKER_01]: Once you go public, and you are now beholden to [SPEAKER_01]: The street to Wall Street and to investors, you have to have tax filings.

17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have quarterly earnings. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to do these things and produce a level of transparency to the information so that the people investing in you and working with you. [SPEAKER_01]: have clear access. [SPEAKER_01]: So when you go from private to public things change and and I think you see that we we discussed CSI being private and the fact that you know happily you can access it by paying for it and playing along or you can decide I don't want to play along right like you don't have to.

18:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the difference in the scale at which we really want to get out there and understand how it's impacting and what it can do. [SPEAKER_02]: And just to double down quickly on that, because we talk so much about contracts, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And I think your points got that the law is a different level above the contract.

18:40 [SPEAKER_02]: The contract controls specs like CSI and other IFC and ISO and other standards. [SPEAKER_02]: But that's different from the law, which is really what you're talking about, where the designer and the builder and the inspector all have to follow the same code. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's apples and oranges when you try and compare the two.

18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes some of these SEOs will say, it's not our fault that became the law. [SPEAKER_00]: That's not our fault. [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is millions of dollars were spent lobbying the government to actually adopt these things into law. [SPEAKER_00]: So they write them with the intent to become law.

19:15 [SPEAKER_00]: They spend lots of money. [SPEAKER_00]: They have people on staff that lobby the government. [SPEAKER_00]: They hire a lobbyist in DC. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a huge amount of focus to get these adopted into law. [SPEAKER_00]: So not only do we draw that clear distinction, it's also, it's a very intentional play on their part.

19:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you do bake the conscious choice and it becomes adopted like that, that is in our mind very different than like you're saying, like, like, specs. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you don't have to follow the CSI categories. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to choose certain building products. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to write it in certain ways.

19:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It's your progative and the government doesn't force it on you. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's our big distinction. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's what we wanted to talk about that. [SPEAKER_01]: We wanted to talk about their evolution. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was it was interesting because when I sat down like I said, I sat down with the Upcoats team and that's where this episode came from.

20:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was very interesting because we we started talking about this, but then I started talking about industries that were being disrupted and changed and [SPEAKER_01]: and how it was going to impact construction. [SPEAKER_01]: And we dove into what summer calling the death of SEO. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a floating around topic that you hear kind of off-handedly in Slack channels and other places amongst the construction technologies and the people in construction tech about [SPEAKER_01]: how that world is changing right now.

20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was really interesting for your team when we started talking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: We were, I'll be open and honest. [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about advertising and being on the show and doing a couple of other things together. [SPEAKER_01]: And your new head of marketing Christie, right?

20:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Head of marketing, correct? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I said, you know, we might not be your, you know, place for putting information. [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, ah, I think you're wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: I think the type of content that you're building here is more valuable than it ever was before.

21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And we started diving into this, this idea that, you know, and I'll just talk about the article because we're going to, you know, we're going to put these out there for everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about earlier Forbes and the Procodes and an article they wrote.

21:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I will definitely, we will be sharing that out. [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll also be sharing out Scott's post as sort of how [SPEAKER_01]: Upcodes and others felt about it. [SPEAKER_01]: So don't worry, we're going to do this like a true news episode, but this one came from Tactical and it's how HubSpot's SEO got crushed.

21:42 [SPEAKER_01]: lessons from an eighty percent loss in organic traffic. [SPEAKER_01]: So some of you may have heard this whole AI things out there and people like Google and others are changing and adapting and moving and it's having downstream effects on what classic marketing and classic distribution of information and driving [SPEAKER_01]: traffic to your organization has changed significantly.

22:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'll give we'll have another article about did hubs about really lose eighty percent of blog traffic here's what actually happened and what it means for marketers. [SPEAKER_01]: So there was a kind of reaction to that. [SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to lay this out there that everybody's like Jeff, how does this have anything to do with construction?

22:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it does. [SPEAKER_01]: It has a huge impact. [SPEAKER_01]: on construction and I just wanted to put it out there and Scott, if you can talk a little bit about how you see this and this change impacting some of the daily lives of people who are driving down the road right now listening to us.

22:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, go back to the topic of things changing, the rate of change currently in technology is faster than it's ever been. [SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, because it's all, it's all software. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we have hardware, we have our phones in our pocket, we have our computers, and now it's just adopting these new tools, which in this case is AI and it's changing dramatically.

23:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the HubSpot example was, I think it's some regard, it's terrifying, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like an ADF centrop, their entire go-to-market, the way they kind of got their business out there, just in the course of months, just completely fall through. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, maybe they say it's not ADF per cent, but it's just one example of many, there's stack overflows, I think, saw a fifty plus percent drop, almost like a step function, just overnight drop when ChatGPT was bursting onto the scene.

23:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So it is, it is, it sounds really, really mindful. [SPEAKER_00]: And what we have seen it is that I think a lot of engagement where you meet your community is just changing. [SPEAKER_00]: Like the channels change, it might not be traditional SEO. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to Google clicking on the ten blue links.

23:51 [SPEAKER_00]: people find their information in much more organic ways. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't argue much better. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I used the chatGFT, I used a Gemini. [SPEAKER_00]: The sources of the content I consume or the information I find is completely different than it was eighteen months ago.

24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for the better, I think I'm more successful in getting into different information and getting their faster. [SPEAKER_00]: But to bring this whole circle, Jeff, through what you're saying is like, I think businesses, firms, departments, everyone needs kind of adapts to make sure they're getting in front of where users are gonna consume that information in the future.

24:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And those channels are changing completely. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was what, you know, HubSpot's, you know, answer was we removed thirty thousand top, what they call top of funnel articles, which, so for people who understand, you know, you're a software company, you're a building product, manufacturing company, [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to put out blogs to drive people to your site.

24:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You're a construction software company. [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to put out blogs to drive SEO traffic to you so that then they can get into the funnel and you can access this people and try to sell them product. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what happened in the change if I understand it correctly and based on a lot of the technology in the background is the algorithms were originally just consuming those keywords.

25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And driving traffic. [SPEAKER_01]: So the more the better. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's top of funnel. [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, guys, when you get to a site, you go into the funnel. [SPEAKER_01]: Your top of funnel. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if we want you or not. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to take you through a process to see if we could value you in your target and we can go after you.

25:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what's happening. [SPEAKER_01]: It's happening in all areas. [SPEAKER_01]: So, but what they did is [SPEAKER_01]: They stopped and it not only stopped ranking, things that didn't connect to your core company and core offerings, they actually started penalizing. [SPEAKER_01]: for content that was not specific to what you were out there talking about and what your what services you provide or what products you provide and that's why HubSpot had a number of articles out there that were you know focused more around real estate licenses and how to flush your DNS and you know [SPEAKER_01]: cool things about cool quotes that people have out there and they went in and they had to call them and they had to get rid of them in such a way to then keep more core traffic and core content.

26:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I understanding that correctly? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and maybe, I mean, I've seen it, maybe some listeners have too, but even on YouTube, like you'll see YouTube channels that have been well established for like years. [SPEAKER_00]: That could be like ten years. [SPEAKER_00]: How are you just split apart?

26:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they can't have a to broad range of interest and things topics they they talk about. [SPEAKER_00]: So they're splitting channels into three, four, five different channels. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the smaller audiences, but more focused. [SPEAKER_00]: And it is interesting, because that's one, I don't know if it's good or bad, but it is forced upstream by YouTube, and by Google, like these are conscious decisions that they're making.

27:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Not sure if that's better or worse, but that is the change. [SPEAKER_00]: People are having to adapt, but adapt faster than they ever have before. [SPEAKER_02]: I read both the hopes fought, especially the response. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you read the whole response, I'll think anywhere through there, do they actually refute the stats themselves?

27:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just more just, no, here's this understanding of the larger landscape of how the industry is changing. [SPEAKER_02]: So we're not the only one. [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like, maybe it's not as bad as eight percent, but it's probably more than fifty percent. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they didn't want to share what that number was, but yeah, to your point, yeah, it's bad across the board.

27:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a sign that [SPEAKER_02]: One tweak to the system can create these ripple impacts, like a Chad GPD. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, how else is this going to show itself in other areas, I think is our broader question, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly because I think some of these software companies tend to iterate very, very quickly.

27:53 [SPEAKER_00]: They can move really quickly and they tend to be the canary in the cold mind because it is quickly as I can go positive. [SPEAKER_00]: It can go negative as well. [SPEAKER_00]: So they have to iterate they have to move fast, but they're great examples to look at on the horizon to see what's coming.

28:07 [SPEAKER_00]: So if that's happening to HubSpot today, [SPEAKER_00]: How does that affect construction tomorrow? [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think these case studies are really, really critical for us to digest and understand how does it impact our business? [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're a manufacturer, if you're an architect, an engineer, a GC, like how do you think about reaching your customer risk or your community and studying these examples?

28:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we have kind of had an interesting kind of product development there, happy to jump into that in a moment, but yeah, curious to get [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I feel the same way and it's kind of cool because I get to, you know, say for once, like, this is why these different mediums are so important and why sort of, and I'll, and I'll quote a Jonathan Marsh, you know, becoming anti-fragile as an organization, you can't just have one thing.

28:54 [SPEAKER_01]: because that one thing can come toppling now, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a diversity of meeting your customers where they are and what I think is cool about it is in reality, at least that canary is saying, hey, if you've been just putting out junk and filling it full of SEO, thanks to AI, right?

29:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Like part of this got worse in the beginning because [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody in their brother can write an article right now on being an expert in whatever they want by throwing it through chat GPT, doing a deep dive, changing a few things and make it sound cool. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's irrelevant, right?

29:32 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not important. [SPEAKER_01]: It created more noise. [SPEAKER_01]: And so in some of those Slack channels that I was talking about, you're like, please, God, stop posting these things and stop sending me these emails and stop doing that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is a cool [SPEAKER_01]: Canary out there of like, hey, this whole thing's about to swing the other way.

29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So get your ducks in order and, you know, Scott, I want to know what you guys are doing, but for for other organizations, it's like, oh, we have to think about these mediums. [SPEAKER_01]: We have to think about podcasts. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, look, let's be honest, like, we just had a crazy election and it was highly impacted.

30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: by their one size ability to leverage podcasts and alternative sources of information. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going into the battle of it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying it had a huge impact. [SPEAKER_01]: We know it did. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, a canary in the coal mine. [SPEAKER_01]: It's teaching us that we must make our content specific.

30:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Have diverse areas. [SPEAKER_01]: Some people still read. [SPEAKER_01]: Some people don't know all they do is consume snippets and consume YouTube and podcasts and so there's lots of different places for people to go and and I hope this actually re-values very highly specific. [SPEAKER_01]: valuable content based on what the services and offerings or software that you are providing.

30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that is going to drive the noise and just like upcodes wanting to get you to the codes faster and understanding them, maybe you can get to the solutions that you need faster. [SPEAKER_01]: by understanding that you're new, you have to understand your audience now. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my take on it, Nathan.

31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if I missed anything and there sparks anything. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, going back to Scott, all your points that feel like thing I would add is, I mean, contact is the first, if they're not feeling it already, they're going to be the first ones to feel it in their audience. [SPEAKER_02]: Again, yourself and others, Scott.

31:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And so if I'm a Blue Medium and if I'm a Trimbo, if I'm anyone, that's absolutely seeing the top funnel generalization of content craze. [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, so that wake up call to diversify your content to go deep on things and create all those different mediums, which is [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you say it's easier said than done, but shoot any more with AI and chatGPK and order and transcriptions and other things like it's crazy how quickly you can create multimedia content with very little kind of human capital input.

32:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But it takes a lot of preparation, a lot of forethought, a lot of this systems level thinking to do. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just, yeah, we've got a long way to go as construction, but thankfully there's a lot of canaries in that coal mine that go in us all the mistakes to hopefully not make a long way.

32:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just a double click on the diversity topic and going to different channels. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a related topic is meeting the user where they are. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think more than ever different kinds of content are getting jammed into the same channels. [SPEAKER_00]: So to give an example, when I go to YouTube, I might be looking at AI analysis videos, things that are coming up or maybe it's like a tech analysis, but contact crew shorts will come up on YouTube.

32:47 [SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in the same channel, I'm in YouTube, but I'm getting so many different pieces of content. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's about making sure you are where the user is, where they're going to be consuming that content or making a decision point. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great example of like, contact meeting you when I'm researching AI topics or getting deep dive analysis videos.

33:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, bringing it back to construction like one of the things we think about is exactly that bringing different kinds of content together into one place. [SPEAKER_00]: So like, you know, where we started this episode is where we started the company, which is building codes and regulations.

33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But we've expanded a lot since and we've gone into assemblies, like you all assemblies or GA assemblies, we've gone into building products and trying to close that loop into an intent experience. [SPEAKER_00]: So you're in one place, one platform, [SPEAKER_00]: You can see your requirements, LA, about the code.

33:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you need to be fires sprinkler or maybe this wall needs to be too hour rated. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's the assembly for that wall? [SPEAKER_00]: What assembly? [SPEAKER_00]: What are my options? [SPEAKER_00]: I can do for that. [SPEAKER_00]: What's I'm honing down on an assembly?

33:57 [SPEAKER_00]: What are the building products I can use? [SPEAKER_00]: Starting to think about the building products and then maybe what do you think about specification? [SPEAKER_00]: How do you tie this all together? [SPEAKER_00]: So I think exactly that getting [SPEAKER_00]: your information exactly where the user is, and it's a win-win.

34:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So you meet the user, the user gets all the information they need that maybe they didn't, things that proactively go look for, but now they can be a little bit more passive and let that information come to that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a philosophy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because I was saying this all last year and I'll always continue to say it.

34:29 [SPEAKER_01]: It's why I want all of the platforms to begin to flow information back and forth kind of like the the code thing right because I think [SPEAKER_01]: connecting them to value and creating more value by connection, we'll actually drive them up into the right. [SPEAKER_01]: What I mean by that is every user is I think soon, going to have a particular platform or area or space that they are in.

34:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it should be right user, right place, right time. [SPEAKER_01]: In the right product for them, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Not every product can be for everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: And so surfacing those other pieces of information. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm trying to figure out, you know, this two hour rated wall, I'm going to make sure that it, you know, fits the, the law and the legal requirements.

35:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm then I need to know what my options are, cost, ability, make sure it's up to spec, etc. [SPEAKER_01]: Other things I want to be in one place doing that and you're providing that option. [SPEAKER_01]: When I want somebody in the field who's working on something, I want them in their platform and I want them to be able to know [SPEAKER_01]: from up codes like the reason this was spec this way and the reason this was chosen is because it follows this particular code that we have to to have in this and that doesn't need to be over there it needs to be over here so in that because that users consuming information they're driving use of your platform and [SPEAKER_01]: They're driving used to the platform that they're in.

35:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Each one of these platforms needs to understand how they can impact the other and drive actually drive up usage. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I think what you said right user at the right time at the right places is exactly it. [SPEAKER_00]: Like ten years ago is so fragmented. [SPEAKER_00]: It was one size fits all for every use case for every user for every project.

36:19 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, I mean, more so today, but especially in the future, it's all about full customization for that user. [SPEAKER_00]: What do they need in that moment? [SPEAKER_00]: Don't show them things that are irrelevant. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't create a lot of blood and a lot of clutter. [SPEAKER_00]: Just show exactly like be a little bit proactive for things in front of them.

36:36 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't know they're going to do next, but be as helpful as possible. [SPEAKER_00]: I make it completely tailored to that experience. [SPEAKER_00]: And Jeff, I agree, I think. [SPEAKER_00]: people will will will not be jumping around different point solutions in its different places, but rather staying in their workflow, staying in that ideally in that software, ideally there's integrations.

36:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, maybe you're in rev it or you're in pro core or you're in blue beam, but if you're in that workflow, [SPEAKER_00]: hold in all this other information, pull in all this other content, connect the dots, or, you know, or maybe you're in upcodes, and you're doing code research, but pulling in different information from the other pieces like your Revit model, so you don't have to jump over to Revit.

37:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to jump over to Blubianvind and vice versa. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's this, I mean, we, I think we talked about this all the time, but I think it's more a part that I've ever as a close. [SPEAKER_02]: But I love how you started it because you didn't start with any of the software as you started with describing the problem, right?

37:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Like everything you describe were things that have existed for a long time before technology and will continue to exist after. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's how do we understand technology to impact on these things like codes and specs and, you know, how they impact inspections and permits and different things like that.

37:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I think you're you're spot on of if you're not starting with the problem first, none of these solutions really matter. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you nail that there and Nathan, because the other thing is, and I say this to startups all the time, and to anyone in software that's trying to do this, if you want to be everything to everybody, then you're nothing to nobody.

38:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that now goes to your content as well, and content strategies. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're trying to just put out everything for everybody, you're going to be nothing for nobody anymore, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's got to draw back to what you do, which is awesome for the end user too, right?

38:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're now meeting them and being forced to meet them, [SPEAKER_01]: with much more valuable, much more specific content. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm thinking of names and people in my head here that are gonna just absolutely love this as it happens. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're also gonna have to be able to, you know, it used to be like, you know, put it all out there and just, ah, crap, we'll figure it out as we go.

38:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's going to be much more like, hey, this is my specific area. [SPEAKER_01]: These are my specific people. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is how I drive a ton of value. [SPEAKER_01]: And okay, now I need to know the other things, the other places, the other pieces they need. [SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, it's the great use of AI Scott that it's probabilistic, right?

38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not deterministic. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you didn't say, I'm going to give them their next step. [SPEAKER_01]: You said through the AI, I'm going to offer them things that they might want as a next step. [SPEAKER_01]: because the probability of what the AI is telling me is these are probably things you want.

39:16 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be choosing, yeah, I do yet. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a huge opportunity because you're not just consuming from your platform. [SPEAKER_01]: You've got other indicators that are driving it and are going to get us to, you know, when you actually like to get, you know, into something, have an idea [SPEAKER_01]: and not realize a product's available for that.

39:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And hey, did you know that this exists? [SPEAKER_01]: No, I didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: Great. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and just to go off the way you said, putting it all out there, that was a historical playbook. [SPEAKER_00]: But when you do that, you're just putting the onus on the user to figure out what's relevant to them.

39:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And in a way, it's just, it's very lazy. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, hey, here's all the options, good luck, and you can, you can figure it out. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you think about a newspaper, like, you know, back in the day, it's, I mean, yeah, it's a pretty newspaper, everyone gets the same exact newspaper.

40:09 [SPEAKER_00]: They have to figure out what are they interested in flip to the right sections and maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but more and more that experience is completely tailored to that user. [SPEAKER_00]: What are your interests? [SPEAKER_00]: What's the feed going to be ideally putting in things they want, but then also injecting things, maybe they didn't know they wanted, but might be interested and show they could dismiss it, but maybe they like it and it serves to get more and more of it.

40:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, here's a quick tangent. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so how do you dispel fake news or fake codes or fake all the fakeness out there through this process, too, right, of making it open? [SPEAKER_02]: But then some sort of validation that it is open that is a law and it's not just something somebody else made up, right?

40:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Like a hopefully something good comes out of this where there is a clear distinction that you can go off. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll just say, yeah, it is certified versus not certified. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's a great use case because matching a user in a project to things that are relevant for them is certifications when it's coming from from organizations or or governments.

41:07 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great way because you know it's official. [SPEAKER_00]: You know it's right and you know it's relevant to the user. [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe they're working in Miami date. [SPEAKER_00]: We're actually just talking about the disaster. [SPEAKER_00]: They're working in Miami to aid and and it needs to be approved by Miami date.

41:19 [SPEAKER_00]: So they're right away. [SPEAKER_00]: We can start to parse down all the all these building products and all these choices and assemblies and [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, the code is easy to parse down because they're location. [SPEAKER_00]: But all of a sudden, you start from this huge set and you can start to bring it down.

41:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And that that validation point can be certifications. [SPEAKER_00]: It can be these stamps of approval approvals that you get or EPDs or performance requirements. [SPEAKER_00]: So let there's so many ways we can very, very intelligently go from literally hundreds of thousands of building products down to maybe like four.

41:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Like here's four. [SPEAKER_00]: And you could they all work for you. [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a high level overview of the form and you can make your choice for that for, but I think cutting it down from a huge number to a very, very small number is the hard and kind of tease work. [SPEAKER_02]: And the way describing such a disruptive idea to that person that's making that decision, because it's so intuitive, like to me, I'm like that is so intuitive.

42:13 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's so foreign to the way that someone would traditionally make those decisions. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, like their initial reactions, whoa, whoa, I don't feel comfortable doing that, but yet it's so is intuitively the right answer. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know, do you face pushback forever or is it just everyone's like totally on board with it?

42:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest pushback is just making sure all the all options are considered. [SPEAKER_00]: Because you don't want to make a decision where you have maybe half of your options are represented. [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get some item within that half. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we understood that from day one.

42:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's always about communicating. [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to try and get you the biggest selection set possible. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the top of funnel, which is Dorothy's really hard to do manually because, again, early hundreds of thousands of these things. [SPEAKER_00]: But how do we [SPEAKER_00]: from a technology perspective, get the biggest set at the top of the funnel and then narrow that down to the nearest, most streamlines, a possible decision for for the user.

43:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And when done correctly, they can understand those filters and the transparency of how you got there and if they need to go back in tweak, they realize my top of funnel was this big I got here because I did these things. [SPEAKER_01]: So let me, you know, it's just like it's like any sort and find, right?

43:24 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what you sort it and found and how [SPEAKER_01]: It's just doing it faster and based off other input, but you can unwrap it and go back and come down and go back. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the power of really well built software that really takes advantage of the current, you know, technology that exists right now and it's going to get considerably better and faster.

43:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like to tie all things back and I have my favorite quote from Rick Con is the number one KPI in construction is time to decision making. [SPEAKER_01]: That is the key because time is money. [SPEAKER_01]: We can print more money. [SPEAKER_01]: We know we can. [SPEAKER_01]: We can charge more money.

44:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We know we can. [SPEAKER_01]: The thing we cannot make is time. [SPEAKER_01]: and we have a limited amount of it, and we don't use it effectively, and it's far more valuable. [SPEAKER_01]: So the ability to use these tools to speed up, you know, to getting to a decision. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the golden thread between the beginning of our episode to now is speed to decision making, but taking into account all of the information required to make a really good decision.

44:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And the transparency and understanding where that came from. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and that's, that's what we do, you know, that's the change in SEO is coming around those kind of things, the access to the codes is changing and we need to think about those things. [SPEAKER_01]: So Nathan, what do you have?

44:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Final thoughts, because we got to wrap her up. [SPEAKER_02]: Last thing to add is just, yeah, measuring the waste of that indecision, because to your point, yes, that is the value, but if we don't measure the waste that's created from the indecision, we are not going to be able to make that argument next time around.

44:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, it starts by measuring the waste and then gets to that, I love that TDD time to decision. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think with the TTT, the way you can unlock that is technology. [SPEAKER_00]: And Jeff, you're saying this too, but it's, we need that layer on top that can give us a really sophisticated set of analysis that we can take across the line.

45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: We can make that a very educated decision taken across line. [SPEAKER_00]: But to go back to the beginning of that episode, if you walk down that foundational layer, you'll just never get that technology to make a decision in form decision. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's why we see billions of dollars in construction rework.

45:31 [SPEAKER_00]: We see delayed permits. [SPEAKER_00]: We see friction across a whole construction lifecycle is because that foundational layer has just been stagnating for literally decades. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for decades, and the people that are suffering the most from it are the people that want to use the infrastructure who need the housing, who need the things that we build in this world.

45:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So just to tie it all back to why we're here and why the built world is, in my opinion, the best business in the world to be in. [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you Scott for jumping on and taking a quick time out this week. [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan, thank you for taking time out of your break to join us.

46:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, tell people where they can learn more about you and catch up with you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: So the website's probably the best place. [SPEAKER_00]: If you Google Upcodes, if you're thinking about the advocacy, you could do Upcodes, Procodes Act, or free law, or anything like that, that'll get you to the site.

46:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And we love hearing from the community. [SPEAKER_00]: So if you want to reach out over email or the chat on the website, we love connecting with folks and just talking through projects, talking through how come they things more efficient? [SPEAKER_00]: So always love to connect with everybody.

46:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Scott Reynolds, I'm going to recommend everybody go hit you on LinkedIn too because you're a great follow on LinkedIn. [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot from you all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to say that Nathan, thanks for taking time out of your vacation to join me today to jump into this one.

46:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh man, glad I can make time. [SPEAKER_02]: Scott, thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: This was this was fun. [SPEAKER_02]: I went to time. [SPEAKER_00]: Likewise, yeah, thanks so much for carving out the time. [SPEAKER_01]: Great to talk.