Vanessa Van Edwards: The Conversation Habit That Makes Smart People Unlikable

0:00 How do you know you talk too much? So first thing is nonverbal cues. Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something. I call it the open fish. And that's a subtle cue that you talk too much. Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me? Yes. And there was a recent study when they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much.

0:18 Well, I have a do you talk too much test. So there's five questions here. And if you answer more than three times, you're probably an over talker. Yeah. Because my next question is like, which one's worse over talking or under talking? Well, I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists.

0:32 And I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want. And I'm a recovering awkward person. And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. And because we're having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness.

0:48 And I now more than ever am sending nine minute voice notes to my friends. But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation. But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. But there's a blueprint to good conversation. And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier.

1:04 For example, we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. And the best conversation starter was actually what was the highlight of your day. Because the moment we asked, how are you? What do you do? They ran out of things to talk about. But the worst question in the history of conversations is what's...

1:20 But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk. Also a secret door into charisma. But also there are five archetypes. And this is going to impact getting our promotion and finding your soulmate. We're going to go through one of them. But what are the ways to get out of the bad conversation about offending people?

1:35 Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression. But we don't really think about the end. But it's all really important. And I discovered this framework. So... Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.

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2:18 Vanessa Van Edwards. On page five of your new book, Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis and you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward and less satisfying. At some level, I feel that too. My question to you is, why did you choose to write this book based on everything you could have written about, everything we've talked about before?

2:40 Why is this book needed at this time? People who are investing in conversation skills right now are creating career insurance. We like to work with people who are great at conversation. We like to be with people who are great at conversation. We like to date people who are good at conversation. And in this age of tremendous technological change, The people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage.

3:06 So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our ability to connect. And I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human. I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. Is it possible to be great at conversation? And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there?

3:34 What advantage will I experience in my life? For everybody listening now, what advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now? Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want. Right, if you want a promotion, and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion.

3:50 If you want to meet your soulmate, you have to have deep, connected, meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other. If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you a longevity boost. I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation as extra, You know, we sort of put it second.

4:12 I know leaders focus on this a lot where they're focused so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element. And I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym. You know, we've focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health.

4:30 If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation, and conversation, I think, is a skill to learn. I don't think you're born with it or you're not. I think you can learn to be good at conversation, and it's the one skill that keeps on giving. Do people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation?

4:45 Like, are there symptoms when experiences when they're not good at conversation? Are they aware of that? Yes, there is symptoms of being a bad conversationalist. And by the way, I should back up. As you know, I'm a recovering awkward person. And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time.

5:03 And I realized it was because I was asking the wrong questions. And I was approaching conversation the wrong way. The wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress, not discover. If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative. And that is so deeply unfulfilling. That is when small talk becomes soul-crushing.

5:23 I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world. And I only know this because I wasn't one for a long time. They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident, more confident, more confident, They're more authentically assertive.

5:40 They get more energy from interactions, whether they're an introvert or extrovert, because their conversations are giving them energy, not taking energy. The symptom of bad conversation, and I hate to give someone a label of being a bad conversationalist, an exhausted conversationalist, is you dread it.

5:56 Dread is a really important emotion. If you open your calendar and you see only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong. Conversation boosts us, gives us energy. So you feel dread in social interactions. You feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation. So if you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off.

6:15 All you're worried about is what you're going to say next. It's actually just because you probably haven't learned the mechanics of conversation. There's a blueprint to good conversation. We're going to talk about it. Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood.

6:30 You leave feeling like I was the worst version of myself or I wasn't able to be my best self. I think really good conversationalists, people leave conversation with them thinking, wow, after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better. And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I want to impress somebody.

6:47 So how long have you spent doing the research that feeds into what we're going to talk about today and feeds into this new book? Okay. So accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for 20 years. Then 20 years ago, I realized that there are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions.

7:03 I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversationalists, they were following some kind of plan. Okay. Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began, and it started with an experiment. I call it my speed networking experiment. This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversations.

7:20 Here's what we did. I knew there was some secret the conversationalists had, and I was like, I'm going to find it. So we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. We brought them in these rooms, and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different.

7:36 Really good conversation. You've seen it. Do you ever like, you know. Of course. At a restaurant. Yeah, yeah. With my fiance. It's like, are they having a bad day? Yeah. So, you know, a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning. It, you know, has that high energy. You see a lot of vocal charisma.

7:50 The volume goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this. I'm a hum. How are we? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Very low energy, like apologetic facial expressions, like low volume. Then I assigned these networkers six conversation starters. Now, I picked these conversation starters.

8:09 I'm going to tell you what they are very carefully. Three of them I thought could do really well, and three of them I wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We gave them these six conversation starters, and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it. One being, that was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had.

8:28 To five being, that was the best conversation I ever had. I want to marry this person, or I want to connect with them on LinkedIn. Then we took all these ratings and we ranked them. And there were clear winners and clear losers. The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness were last choice.

8:43 Want to guess what last choice was? Last. In terms of an opener? In terms of just a question. A typical question you ask. How are you? Number five. That was the fifth worst. Very close to the bottom. Sixth was? Something about the weather. What do you do? What do you do? That was the worst. The worst.

9:02 Okay. Why? So these last two, how are you and what do you do? They're very socially scripted, right? The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot. So there's a lack. It is more of a performance. There's a lack of excitement in the conversation. And they ran out of things to talk about.

9:17 They're fact-based questions. And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got any kids? Married? The facts are dead ends, right? So it's very hard for someone to break out of that fact because they're stuck in that social script.

9:35 The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker. I was like, interesting that this one did best by lot. It was, what was the highlight of your day? Now, what this question does psychologically sounds casual. First of all, it's not too deep. A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep too quickly, right?

9:55 They're like, what is your greatest goal in life? And you're like, I don't know you, right? So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you. You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism. You're literally inviting their brain to think like what was good. And then they think, well, highlight of my day.

10:12 So one, we just broke autopilot. Thank you. And they're thinking for the first time. Their brain goes, ooh, we get to do something new. So they got to think of something new. And it was immediate. It wasn't like too big of a question. The second question was, have anything exciting you're working on?

10:29 This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do, right? If someone likes what they do, they're going to talk about it. But they're going to reframe it in something exciting. And if someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better. The third question, very, very simple, was, do you have any fun plans coming up?

10:46 These questions, the first three, are literally searching for good. You're inviting the other person to only think about good things and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life. Now the fourth question, the middle one, almost broke my data. And this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher.

11:06 This fourth question, people either loved it or they hated it. They either gave it a five. That was like the most connective thing I felt all week or a zero. And a zero wasn't even an option on my scale. It was the question. What's your story? Now, what's your story? Have you ever been asked that question, by the way?

11:27 Derivatives of that question. Okay. Yeah. So extroverts tend to default to that question because they want to go a little bit deeper. But actually, that is a level three question. It is way too advanced. For someone who's introverted or someone who has never framed their story that quickly, they're immediately put into cortisol.

11:44 They're immediately put into fight or flight. They're like, what's my story? How can I get that to you so quickly? So you're by accident putting them into conversational fear. Yeah. This is when I realize there's a hierarchy. We have to move through our conversations with different levels, right? This is why we have this.

12:03 So for anyone that can't see because you're listening on Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, we have a three-tier little stage in front of us. Tier one, tier two, tier three. What are these three tiers? Okay, so Dr. Dan McAdams found that conversation is actually not as fluid as we would like to think.

12:21 That actually, when we're trying to connect with someone else, we are trying to move through three distinct levels. Level one is called general traits. This is why in those first few minutes you're basically trying to Google fact check someone. Where are you from? What do you do? Married. Where do you live in LA?

12:37 Right. Like you're trying to ask all those questions because there's a sort of social hierarchy. Our brain processes social facts from least, least intimate to most intimate. So we cannot get to know someone on their deepest dreams and worries if we don't know the basic facts about them. So that is why we often fall into that trap of, yeah.

12:59 those fact-based questions. The key here is that really good level one question is taking those facts, but adding story, but adding emotion. So the best way to do level one better is you're swapping out those bad questions, right? How are you? What do you do with looking for a story? I truly believe a fact is a stop sign.

13:21 A story is a doorway. Give me an example of both. Okay, so one of them, we can place it on here, is what's your personal passion project, okay? Now, what's your personal passion project is actually a hunt for stories, right? And would you open with that? Is that what you're saying, or it doesn't really matter?

13:36 It can come in the first few minutes. Now, I probably wouldn't walk into a room and be like, what's your personal passion project, Stephen? Right, it's a little bit much. We have to do our basic first impression, and we can talk about first 10 words in a little bit. But as an opener question, it's better than how are you.

13:51 And I have to pause here and say, everything I'm going to share takes a little bit of conversational courage. It's really safe to ask, how are you? It's really safe to ask, what do you do? But if you want to be memorable, if you want to actually spark connection, those won't serve you. So it does take a little bit of courage to ask this, but the answers you're going to get are incredibly interesting.

14:11 You're going to get stories. You're going to get a hint at values. If you want to know if they're married or have kids, they probably will tell you by accident. So it's like a hunt for stories. Same with, right, I mentioned this one in the study, so working on anything exciting these days. This is, again, one of my favorite swap questions because you're hunting for something good.

14:29 When I think about conversation in level one, you're trying to gift someone a chemical cocktail a little bit. And I think in level one, these two questions are doing a lot of heavy lifting. They are now competing with your feed. I went to a PTA meeting recently. And those are torture, if you've ever been to one, for any parents watching.

14:50 What's a PTA meeting? Oh, a parent-teacher meeting. Okay. Right, so a bunch of other parents in the room. And I wanted to go meet other moms because I just moved across the country to try to meet more people. And I was, like, excited. I was like, okay, I'm going to meet more moms. Here we go. And I walk in the room and everyone's...

15:05 scrolling, everyone's on their feed. And I realized, wow, conversation now is not just about a way for me to make friends. It actually has to compete with that feed. I have to make my questions and my answers so dopamine worthy that they're actually going to beat that feed. Otherwise, they're going to go right back to their phone.

15:25 That is why these have to do more lifting. Because if I want to compete with the feed, I have to produce dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of motivation. I also have to create what I would call, forgive me for this word, but conversational confetti. This is like we got to lift a little bit more in our conversations because otherwise someone's going to go right back to scrolling.

15:46 Their brain is somewhere else. Either their brain is in their email list or their brain is on their feed. In this research, when I was studying amazing conversationalists, one of the one people I studied is Howard Stern. So however you feel about Howard Stern, he is a master conversationalist. I mean, he can carry on long, very interesting.

16:03 He gets people to say things that I could never imagine. So I analyzed thousands of transcripts of his interviews, and I found one pattern. He does a very good job of creating information gaps. So he'll say, what's the weirdest thing you've ever done? Or he'll say, the most surprising thing that happened to me yesterday, you want to hear what it was?

16:26 And your brain doesn't like not knowing. So when it hears the most surprising, the weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the most embarrassing, the brain creates this gap. Like it's this information gap where the brain is like, I have to know. What is the weirdest thing? So also what happens with these kinds of questions is we're creating these little information gaps.

16:43 And actually saying and using in conversation these phrases is... is a way that we can create more intrigue and interest. And I know that sounds like, what? But think about this. If something crazy happened to you yesterday and you walk into dinner and you're like, guys, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, everyone's like, phone's down.

17:03 Right? Now, I couldn't say something boring. I couldn't be like, I was stuck in traffic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you want to be funny. But I think that looking for opportunities to create that little bit of conversational confetti, they come up with questions like this. And this is the last one. Have any fun plans coming up?

17:19 Now, the reason why this one is important, and I agonized over this third question because there's three questions for each level, is have any fun plans coming up is a subtle way to bring up potential shared future. So psychologically speaking, we bond with someone when we feel like we could do something fun with them or they're doing something fun that I would also like to do.

17:42 I think that part of these questions is being known for asking better questions, like being known for searching or hunting for excitement. Because what will happen is with people who know you at work or your work friends or outside of work friends is they'll bring these things to you. They know that you're going to ask out personal passions.

17:59 So next time you get to say, hey, last time we were talking – You mentioned XYZ. How's that going? So they also become your callbacks. They make conversation easier later. Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they? In terms of both skill, but also like will. Do you know what I mean?

18:19 And energy and willing to do it. I think there'll be a lot of, one might say introverts listening right now, but just think, what's the fucking point? Like, you know, I don't like people anyway. And it's so much energy. And I've got to ask these questions and pretend to be interested. This is going to drain me.

18:32 Oh, my gosh. I agree. And two things can be true. It's very exhausting in the sense of you're trying, right? Like we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk. I find it exhausting to stand at an event or be schmoozing with people backstage and be talking about nothing.

18:53 Do you want to have very boring, predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting until you can get home to Netflix? That's one hard. That's not what I would choose. Or do we choose the heart of, I'm going to break a script, right? I'm going to try to do level one better.

19:09 I'm going to try to, you know, trigger a little bit of dopamine. I'm going to try to learn something that I didn't know before, which is going to maybe, just maybe, bring joy. If you get a really great answer, by the way, there's two sides of conversation, talking and asking. I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about.

19:28 And so I think connecting this level one stuff to the highest goals is like critical for the behavior to occur and for it to like net out in the incentive equation as being worthwhile. Yes. Because if you can tell me how asking, have any fun plans coming up is going to help me become a better CEO or founder or whoever I want to be, father, mom, daughter, whatever, then I'm in.

19:52 Yes. Okay, so let's talk about founders and CEOs specifically. There is a mistaken belief, and I work with a lot of companies, right, with a lot of founders. They believe that conversation is anti-productive. They worry that, oh, I don't know if I want my employees to talk a lot. You know, I can't waste time on small talk.

20:13 The research shows the opposite. And also, logically, if you think this through, connected people collaborate better. engaged employees work better together. We are more productive when we feel good. And in fact, the key word here is friction. When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves, you don't have psychological safety, they have a really hard time brainstorming, you have people who withhold information, you have more information silos.

20:47 Communication friction costs companies money. And so if you have a community of employees who have very easy level one, they don't need to get to level three. Like you don't need to get to level three with everyone in your company. You don't need to get to level three with your Uber driver. But if you have really easy small talk, easy banter where someone knows, oh, yeah, I know exactly what their personal passion project is.

21:06 I know who they are. I know what fun plans they have coming up. The first five minutes of your meeting becomes not only frictionless but actually pleasurable. People show up on time. People are more productive. People want to be there because they actually want to connect and collaborate with her. And this is remote or in person, right?

21:23 Because they know they have these very loose ties. And loose ties actually make us more productive. And so we are looking for frictionless communication. And that happens at level one. In fact, work conversations should be really ideal level ones. Is this in part also the fastest way to get to connection?

21:41 Yes. Because these CEOs or founders or, you know, busy people generally are very time poor. For sure. So they don't have, you know, 30 minutes to move their way to connection. But are you saying that? These are shortcuts. Okay. Right. So like what's it's way worse for a CEO to be like, shoot, I've been told I better be warmer.

21:56 I have a lot of like most of my students are brilliant, very talented, very smart, but a little awkward and want to get it done. Right. They're much more focused on the confidence and the warmth. So they try to do warmth because they feel like they should. And they're like, how are those kids? And then it's like a social script.

22:13 Good. Or how are you? Good, busy. Busy, but good. And they're like, it's not working. Ah, it was anti-productive. No, I'd rather you skip ahead. Make this level quick and good, right? So like the team intervention that I encourage every virtual or in-person team to do is once a week at the start of a meeting, start with tell me something good.

22:33 Very, very quickly. Everyone goes around very quickly and they share one win or something good. It can be small. It can be big. That can take less than three minutes, less than five minutes, depending on how big your team is. We do it on our Tuesday team calls at my team. What it does is you've just created a safe, very contained space for a good level one.

22:50 It's only good. So otherwise, people will accidentally complain, right? They'll be like, oh, the weather, oh, traffic, right? Right. But you're putting a frame around it that's good. You're time boxing it, right? Everyone goes around really quickly. But you're very quickly creating these team connections.

23:03 So creating time in your meetings, but also in your culture to ask slightly better questions. All of these level one things have one thing in common, which is they provoke a positive search and response. Yes. So that's really the crux of level one. It's just a question that's producing a positive response.

23:21 Sorry, it's not always positive. Right. I do believe in toxic positivity and toxic positivity can kill a conversational vibe very quickly. What we're actually looking for is emotion and story. Okay. Right. So I might say, and by the way, my introverts, I love my introverts. They always say, well, what if someone says they don't?

23:41 that you ask them, what's your personal passion project? And they say, I don't have one. Well, great. What an opportunity. If someone doesn't have a personal passion project or they're going through a hard time, they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better. So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive.

23:57 You're looking for any kind of real emotion. So then someone says, you know what? I've been really going through a hard time and, you know, I haven't had much energy to work on personal fashion these days. And then you have the choice. You can say, wow, is there anything I can do to help? Or you can say, do you want to talk about it?

24:14 So it's not always positive. It's looking for authentic emotions and ideally story. And this is another one of the other master conversationalists I study who is excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld. So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick. This is in level one of the book, which is he often meets people after his event, and they're so starstruck by him that they don't know what to say, and conversation is really awkward.

24:38 He has a little awkward to meet. He's developed a trick, and this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers-based question. So instead of, how are you? Where do you live? So how long have you two been together? Yeah. And then if it's 38 years, you say, oh, what's been the highlight of your 38 years?

24:57 If it's really short, oh, you're in the honeymoon phase. What's the best part? So it's a numbers question. And this works really well for introverts as well is because it's fact-based. So it's like an opener. And then usually from there, it's a jumping off point to a story. So it's not that level one should always be positive.

25:13 That's great if it can be. But practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small emotion or a small story. Okay, so the other day I was in Las Vegas and I was doing this sort of like step and repeat meet and greet thing after the event. And people come up and they're kind of ushering them through very quickly.

25:30 So I always want to... you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time, what would you recommend? And this might be applicable for networking generally, but what would you recommend? Okay. So I always, whenever after speaking about book signing, I say, what was your favorite part or what did you learn the most?

25:45 So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them. And that's actually level two, which we can, we can skip it. We're not going to skip too far ahead, but what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two. So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you, Wait, what's the difference between level one and level two?

26:00 Okay. Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped ahead. Okay. So we'll put a pin in this. One of the things I want to say about that question is I read this framework. I read about Dan McAdams' framework and I was doing this conversation research. And then I got invited to a party. One of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to.

26:18 And I get in and they tell me to take off my shoes. So I'm committed. Right? I can't leave. Yeah? And then they go, guess what? We have a rule for this party. I'm like, what? They're like, you cannot talk about what you do. Now, this was a party of, I think, very other successful people. And all of us are like, what?

26:38 Because I don't know about you, but I'm pretty defined by what I do. I talk about it. I love it. So I start to panic because I'm like, what do you even talk about if you don't talk about that? Because so many of our conversations veer into work. And so I had to, one, my brain was flipped off autopilot immediately.

26:54 And, And I had to get more creative with my questions. And I had to also think that I was like, I'm just going to discover things about them. I'm going to try to figure out what they do by not asking. And that was an aha moment of we should treat level one, these three bottom questions, as a treasure hunt.

27:11 That if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intention. And especially what I ended up asking was, what do you talk about when you don't talk about work? which was sort of this freedom. It gave us this freedom in conversation where I want to give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics.

27:34 It does not have to be what you do. It can be about anything that is engaging you or exciting you in that moment. That is level one. Level two. So we have general traits. We must start there. We cannot skip too quickly to level two. Level two is called personal concerns. Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply.

27:55 This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries. And I'm assuming you do level two once you've got past level one connection. Exactly. So this is us going deeper with the person. Exactly. Or leveling up as you wish. Right. As you wish. So the mistake traps people make is they skip level one.

28:13 They try to go too deep quickly and people feel like it's invasive. Right. Especially when you're like, whoa, slow down or can feel like an interrogation. So we must know those basics first as long as we do them better. We don't do them in autopilot way. Level two is when you start to understand what motivates someone.

28:26 The kind of mental trick that I use is you know you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning, like what goal is driving them all day. But you also know what keeps them up at night, what worries them. I encourage people as they're reading, like think of the five people you interact with most and place them on a level.

28:46 Like do you only know the basic facts about them? Are you all the way at level three, which we're going to get to? It's sometimes helpful you'll notice patterns. Like, I don't know about you, but I love level two. Like, I want to get through level one as quickly as possible. I want to get to your motivations.

29:00 I want to get to your secret side hustle. I want to get to your dreams and passions. I want to know what keeps you up at night. But I can sometimes jump too fast. Level two is about making someone feel heard and understood. And this is different than discovering treasure. And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building.

29:19 So dream building is everyone has like a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle, a secret passion. Can you be there and help them uncover it? That's the goal of level two. So give me an example of dream building. Okay. So before we started, I said to you, I have a new goal, right? Like I'm pitching a TV show.

29:39 That's like my secret side hustle. That's level two for me. It's something that I've been working on secretly and quietly. And if we were at lunch, I would have told you all about it. We would double clicked on it. So like that's an example of one. Another example to think about is what does someone daydream about?

29:53 Right. Like what is what is occupying their mind in a good way? The other way that I a framework that I give for folks is a pet or pest project. So what is someone's pet project like a pet at home? You kind of think about it. You dream about it. You hope about it. Like what is someone hoping to achieve or find or do?

30:11 And what is their pest project like a pest in the attic? It worries you. You wonder, like, how can I get rid of that pest? How can I eradicate it? And they want help with it, but they're too afraid to ask. Pest projects have a lot of shame. On level two, people have to feel safe enough to expose what they feel shame about.

30:32 But pet projects, the things they love, have a lot of pride. And so you're trying to figure out in conversation, could you let someone feel safe enough to share either one? And are there questions that evoke dream building? Yes. Okay, so what have you always wanted to learn is an interesting question because it triggers growth mindset.

30:50 right? So growth mindset is when someone believes they can change themselves, change who they are, change their trajectory, learn something new. So we like this question because you're asking, are you willing to grow with me? What have you always wanted to learn? The other easy one is, what is your biggest goal right now?

31:07 So what is your biggest goal right now is a great question. And you can also time anchor it. Anytime someone has a birthday, you can ask, what's your big goal this year? You're like leveling them up in a safe way because they're talking about their birthday. Around New Year's, January and December, I ask everyone I know, what's your biggest goal right now?

31:25 New quarter, new performance review. When we talk about goals, it activates a part of our brain that triggers dopamine. When we think about our future self, it activates a part of ourselves that wants to get motivated. And so level two is also giving someone motivation. That in conversation, they're actually discovering an aspect of themselves.

31:44 They're tapping into their own resource for motivation. Right? It gives them permission to dream a little bit. Yeah, and you're giving them the motivation that they already have, but you're bringing it into the conversation. I think recently we are so into intrapersonal, like a lot of what you see on social media right now is mindset and mantra and affirmation and productivity.

32:08 And I love all of those things. But... That means that people are actually using all that excitement alone when they're journaling or when they're meditating or when they're working on their to-do list. We have forgotten, I've noticed, to bring those goals into conversation. We're almost like embarrassed.

32:24 I don't know if you've noticed this, but it's almost like people are like embarrassed to talk about their secret side hustle or they're embarrassed to talk about their secret passion. If we give someone permission to bring in what they have been motivated about privately into conversation, you get to be an ally.

32:38 What if you're met with a dead end when you ask these kind of level two questions? Well, then you get to answer. Because some people haven't quite figured out what their biggest goal is. Absolutely. Especially also sometimes introverts in conversation. I've asked these questions to thousands of people and all different kinds of things happen when I do that.

32:55 Introverts also need more time to process. So you might ask them, you know, what are you learning right now? What's your biggest goal? And they might in the moment not know. They just need a little bit of time to process. And so two things can happen is if they don't have it yet, that's okay. You also have opportunity to share.

33:12 But what if I ask, I'm thinking because, you know, I know a lot of taxi drivers listen to this podcast because I get in taxis and we talk about it. Oh, yay! I love it. And taxi drivers, you know, they're conversationalists. They are. Often very good ones. But sometimes I guess a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the backseat doesn't want to talk.

33:29 And they might hit them with one of these, you know, level ones and then the level twos and they're just getting brick walls. Then I would respect that. Right. If someone doesn't want to talk to you. Do you just back out? Yeah. Okay. Because then they're going through their own thing. Right. Like if you have to have also courage to be disliked.

33:47 Mm hmm. Right? Like you can try your best in conversation. You can bring the best questions. But if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that? So I also think that asking some of these are like bids. It's like a bid to see like, can we do this?

34:04 You want to banter with me? Should we have level one? Should we even dip into level two? Great. If not, cool. They're not your person or it's not their day. So if they don't take the bait. It's okay. Okay. The taxidermist usually asks me, got anything exciting today? Are we going anywhere exciting? Great.

34:18 That's a great swap for level one. I should say, by the way, these questions are suggestions. If you can modify them to fit what you are doing, even better. Like, for example, you and I are in book signings or we are meeting people after speaking events. It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, hey, what did you learn?

34:38 Or did you learn anything new? Or what was your favorite part? Right? We're modifying that for us. A tax driver is going to modify it for, are we heading anywhere exciting? Do anything exciting today? So, like, these are not prescriptions, right? They are guidelines to try to... make the research applicable.

34:54 You know, I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies, and some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget. And Dan McAdams' research is so incredible, but when I first read it, I did not know how to use it. I was like, general traits, personal concerns, like level one, I wasn't sure.

35:11 So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions, but you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you. The goal in level one, treasure hunt. Yeah. put someone at ease, ask them about what they love, harvest story. The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire or a secret worry.

35:32 And level three, we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one more level three. Hold on. Level two question. On these questions, do you have to actually care about the answer? Do you have to authentically care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is?

35:48 Does it matter if you don't actually care? Yeah. There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet. So I would say, you don't care yet. What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet, but then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about?

36:08 I think we don't know always if we're going to care about someone because we've just met them. But maybe you will. You never know who's going to be your next best friend. You never know when you're going to hear an aha moment that's going to change your business. So many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question and someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice.

36:28 So is it okay to pretend to care? If you're asking the question, you care enough to try. Right? If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, I know I should. I know I should be a master confrontationalist. Like so many leaders who I work with, they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm.

36:50 I think that's intent enough. Right? We just got to find the ones that work for you. And you talked a second ago about these questions that lead to dead ends, which are like, what you do. What are the other examples you gave? Okay, I have a question that I hate a lot. I hate it a lot. I want it to leave our vocabulary.

37:08 It's the worst question in the history of conversation. It is, been busy. Okay. Yeah. Right. Like... Been busy. What do you do? When you're on the receiving end of those kinds of questions... Yes. How do I counter that? Because I'm going to get that everywhere I go forever. So how do I counter that? Okay.

37:24 So every time... First of all, boring questions make you boring. We know this. But boring questions asked of you are an opportunity. Yes. In fact, I think you can really surprise and delight someone by breaking the script on their boring question. You are going to be asked a lot of boring questions. Let's talk about two buckets here.

37:42 The first bucket is when you're asked, what do you do? And you're going to be asked a lot. You better have a great answer. I think having a great answer to what do you do is creating opportunities for yourself. What most people make the mistake of with what do you do, and I have an entire chapter about it in the book, is what?

38:00 When you're asked what do you do, they're looking for something, right? They're trying to understand who you are. Maybe they're even asking what are you worth. Maybe. So now the ball's in your court to break the script and to surprise them. You want to give an answer that explains exactly what you do but then gives them a little bit of a hook.

38:17 As in, like, creates that curiosity gap. A little bit of information gap, a little bit of curiosity. And we don't want to overcomplicate or be vague. So, for example, I was sitting in a coffee shop. I was researching this book, and I was eavesdropping on everyone's conversations, because that's the best way.

38:32 You know, if you listen to conversations in the wild, all the things you hear are great. And I was on my computer, and I heard – she said, so, what do you do? I think they were on, like, a date. And he goes, oh, I have a system for maximizing achievement in young learners. Right? And she was like, what?

38:49 And he goes, yeah, I work with fifth grade students and I have a system for how they can learn math and reading. And she goes, oh, you're a teacher. He goes, yeah, I'm a fifth grade teacher. And I was like, wow. The intention there was to be interesting. He didn't want to say I'm just a fifth grade teacher.

39:04 But he gave the brain... too many calories, like conversation calories. The brain wants the simplest, easiest road possible. We want to put people at ease. What doesn't put people at ease is acting like you're reading your resume. If your answer to what do you do sounds like you're reading your resume, you are turning people off.

39:23 It's either jargon-filled or it feels too formal or too complex. So that answer that he gave was vague. It was complex. Yeah. And it wasn't the social hierarchy. And it wasn't interesting. Also, it didn't give me a late, right? Like the social hierarchy of facts, I have to know what you do before I can know your how.

39:42 So what should he have said? Okay, what he should have said is not the how, but the what. I love why, but I think that that needs to come second. So what he should have said is, I'm a fifth grade teacher and I've been working for the last 10 years. I developed this really unique system that speeds up reading.

39:59 Now we're talking because my brain went, got it, check, fifth grade teacher, got it. Then I got to hear the how. Wow, 10 years. That answered another question that we always have. How long have you been doing that? Right? You're trying to skip ahead. And then it added this hook of I figured out how to get students to read faster.

40:14 So when you think of what to do, I have a little formula if you're willing to play around with it. And again, a formula, always take it loosely, make it fit. I do blank. For who, by how. That is doing some, it's like a gift to the other person. You're giving them a very clear label of what you do so they can put you in a box.

40:34 And I hate being put in a box, but unfortunately our brains need it, especially if it's very easy to understand. By who, because people always want to, can you help me? Can you help my friend? Is it for my sister? And then if it fits your how. A lot of people listening now are more multi-hyphenated than ever before.

40:50 Love a multi-hyphenated. They do a this, a that, a violin, a creator, a LinkedIn thing, a speech, a dance, an improv. Yeah. So how do those people answer when they're multi-hyphenated? Oh, I love it. Okay, so two things. A multi-hyphenated, we understand complexity as humans. We get it. So you can say, you know, I daylight as a fifth grade teacher, but I moonlight as a cinematographer.

41:10 You can literally say your hyphen. If you're in a career pivot, we have a lot of students who come to us who are mid-pivot. We love a hero story. So you can say, you know, I've been working in marketing for the last 20 years, but I'm thinking about going back to school for psychology. Right? Right? Like we think that people can't handle it, but conversation can handle a lot and it doesn't take a long time.

41:30 Now, I do want to make a note here, the mechanics of conversation. So there's two aspects of conversation. There's the art, right? Like weaving in excitement and harvesting story. And I love that. But there's also the mechanics. So let's talk about that first. So the candor corpus is a huge research study on mechanics of conversation.

41:50 So how long do you think a typical turn should take in conversation? Like how long should our turns take? 15 seconds. Wonderful. 15 to 30 seconds. Okay. So in average conversation, we like 15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay, but we start to turn to a monologue. By this, you mean how long we speak for each?

42:09 Each, yes. Before I let you speak? Yes, before we start to feel like, well, I'm talking too much. It's not my turn. Okay. So 15 to 30. And by the way, if you want to go listen to previous Zoom conversations, it can be helpful to know if you're an overtalker or an undertalker. Under 15 seconds, you might be actually creating conversational scarcity, like not asking enough, not talking enough.

42:26 Which one's worse, do you find? Well, I'm an overtalker, so I'm going to say undertalking. I'm an overtalker, so I'm going to say it's worse to me. I'm going to say it's worse to me. Wait, by the way, can I take a hit at podcasts for just a second? Sure. So the other reason I wrote this book is I think the art of conversation is being systematically stripped away piece by piece.

42:49 And it's well-intentioned. This is not a natural conversation, right? Like, I'm in an interview. I would never normally take this long on turns if we were having dinner. You're reading notes. I have notes. But more and more of our... off time is listening to podcast conversations, but those are not real conversations.

43:06 Those are interviews. So one is we are hearing conversations that are not real. They are a bit performative, right? And they're not following the mechanics of conversation. That is affecting our conversational muscle in our brain. Second is we're having more and more asynchronous conversations. I now more than ever am sending nine-minute voice notes to my friends.

43:28 Right? They send them back to me. Well, a voice note is not a conversation. A voice note is a monologue. And when you're giving a voice note, I don't get the, oh, it's my turn. Me too. How dare you? I don't like that. I don't agree. Like, there's no back and forth. In fact, it's the most selfish form of conversation.

43:47 And this is from someone who sends a lot of voice notes because I don't need to hear your opinion. I get to go as long as I want. I don't have to worry about whatever you're doing. And I'm usually multitasking. Right. I'm listening to my best friend's voice note while I'm cleaning or cooking or exercising.

44:02 So that has skewed it because we get into real conversation and it feels hard because our muscle has been atrophying with this asynchronous. And then we are also conversing less. You know, only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day to day basis. Only 3 in 10 Americans socialize on a daily basis, meaning they're having more time alone and they are conversing less.

44:25 And that is because we're able to do so much work asynchronously. We also spend so much time on our self-care, our longevity, our workouts, that we're just doing less with other people. And one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And I think that is because we are having less conversation.

44:41 And if we're having it, it's happening asynchronously. Or, and this is the last hardest point, is we are now talking to technology more than talking to each other. And I don't just mean through technology. Yes, we've been talking through technology for a long time, but only recently are we talking to technology.

45:01 And when I talk to my technology, it sounds different than when I talk to you. Like I was sitting next to my husband and he was working and he was like talking to his AI and he was like, do better. That's terrible work. Do better. And then I asked him a question. He turned to me and I was like, you better not tell me to do better.

45:17 You know, and that is because, you know, we're talking technology in a way that we would never talk to other humans. But our brain doesn't always know the difference. And so I think this muscle is atrophying. And on this point of like knowing whether you are a good conversationalist talker, there was a recent study of over a thousand Americans and they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much.

45:40 These chatty co-workers spend an average of 90 minutes of their workday just talking. And 71% of respondents said talkative co-workers prevented them from getting their work done. Yes. How does one know if they are the person that talks too much? First is let's do an intervention on this is go back if you have recorded Zoom calls and just time yourself.

45:58 There is a kind of appropriate, right, 15 to 45 seconds, 45 seconds is the most. Second, nonverbal cues. Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something. That is a subtle cue that someone wants to turn, but they are going to wait. So if someone is opening their mouth, I call it the open fish, okay?

46:19 It means they want to turn. Like, you did it to me earlier, and I totally stopped. Yeah, you did, yeah. Yeah, because I was like, oh, he wants to say something. Yeah. No, so I actually do give people cues that I want to say something sometimes. And some of them see them, and some of them just do not.

46:32 And I was, like, fully distraught. You're on this more sensitive end of the scale where you're almost watching what I'm doing. And it's, and, you know, having done, what, 700 of these interviews now, it's really fascinating to me that some people, I have to, like, remain completely utterly still because they are surveilling me for cues that they're doing a good job.

46:48 Yeah. And so if I move or like look away, they immediately change. Whereas other people don't even know I'm here, which is actually what I prefer. Because then I can like grace these notes and look in the books and I can like go to the toilet and come back and, you know, it's just easier. And this is why this is not natural conversation.

47:05 But I think people like you are better at conversation because you see conversation not as a megaphone in which you're shouting through. You see it as continual feedback. Yeah. And that's why I have to sometimes be on edge with people like you because I know that you're taking cues from me. Yeah. Right.

47:18 And also, like, I'm looking for your eyebrow raises. Yeah. Right. Like, one is Neil deGrasse Tyson says that every book is every eyebrow raising thing he's ever said. Because he'll go on airplanes and he'll just talk to people and when they go, oh, he writes it down. And so I'm doing the same thing for you as I'm looking at your eyebrows very closely.

47:35 Don't ever get Botox. Yeah. It'll be so hard to read you. And so if you raise your eyebrows, I want to double click on it, right? Because you're the tastemaker, right? I know I'm saying things that interest me, but it might not interest you. So if you say something, if you raise your eyebrows, I'm going to go deeper or give you an example or tell you a story.

47:53 And this is like, this is why this is not a normal conversation and conversation doesn't go like this. Those moments go viral, right? Like when you go, oh, okay. Yeah. So like the replayed parts. Like the umpiver thing. Right. And unfortunately, we're all here because we're trying to reach people, right?

48:09 And so if you are going, ah, ooh, ah, and you raise your eyebrows, then I'm going to double click. So if no one is doing that to you, if you're in a conversation back and forth and there are no eyebrow raises and there's no ooh, ah, wow, and they are either looking away or having that open mouth. And by the way, that's also how I can interrupt someone.

48:24 If I want to interrupt someone politely, I'll go, ah. It used to be that working for yourself was a massive, massive risk, but that world has completely changed. If you've got a business idea that you can't stop thinking about, I think you owe it to yourself to at least try and make it happen. And that is where our show sponsor, Shopify, comes in.

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50:36 I was thinking about someone that I might consider to be in the over-talking category. Yeah. And when they talk, I don't think they have any concept that there's anybody else in the room. Yeah. I think they might as well have their eyes completely closed. That's kind of, I was just thinking about it the other day when I was with this person.

50:53 And they might as well be sat there like this. And they're just, and they're going to finish when they feel like they've run out of things. Okay, this is, there are two types of conversational people. There's entertainers and appreciators. One of the biggest questions I get is, how do I talk to VIPs?

51:08 How do I talk to my boss? And this is exactly this. And I don't know if they're a VIP or not. It actually doesn't matter. They are an entertainer. The way I discovered this framework is I was in the green room for a speaking event, and a very famous person came in. I can tell you who it was later. Very, very famous.

51:24 Who was it? We're going to cut this. No, keep it in. I think he's Bernie Mavis. Massively famous. Okay, okay. He comes in, and we have a little bit of downtime before he has to go up. And I watched person after person try. You know when you watch someone try? And this is the same thing when someone's approaching their boss or a VIP.

51:45 And they all tried the same way, either a compliment or a question. Oh, I love your stuff so much. I've been watching you since I was a kid. Oh my gosh, you changed my life, right? Compliment or question. Oh, what's the best thing you've ever done? I won't get too specific. What was your, do you have any advice for me as a young person?

52:02 Right, it was either compliment or question. And he was just not having it. Hmm, yeah, nice to meet you. Yeah. Right? Like quick selfie. Just not engage. And I was like, wow. That's what I would have advised back then. Either go with a compliment or a question. No. Then one person came up. It was actually one of the AV guys.

52:20 He was going to mic him. And he said, can I tell you the funniest story? Can I tell you the funniest story? And he was like, and you could literally see him, was like, yeah. And this guy begins to tell him hilarious stories about the first time he watched one of his movies, hilarious stories about him and his siblings playing sports.

52:38 And, you know, he's laughing. The guy is laughing. And then he starts asking some questions. And I realized he wants to be entertained. He doesn't want to entertain him. So what I realized was... There are certain people who want to entertain. They speak longer, so they're more at risk of talking too much.

52:56 They want you to laugh at their jokes. They want to share their stories. Their love language in conversation, what gives them energy is other people giving them adoration or listening to their stories, listening to their ideas. They love giving advice. They talk more in conversation. The other type of person, and I think this is you, and actually this is me, even though it doesn't look that way on podcasts, we are appreciators.

53:17 I talk all day long for my work. The last thing I do when I want to go to dinner is talk. In fact, when people ask me deep questions, I sometimes I'm like, can we go back to level one and can you just tell me everything? Appreciators talk less. They love to laugh at other people's stories. They love to hear interesting, weird, surprising, embarrassing things.

53:39 they are much more hesitant to open up about themselves. Like as long as we've been talking, we are not personally on level three, right? Like we are able to hide that because we keep it back. It is critical when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to know which one you're talking to. Entertainers want questions.

53:56 But appreciators want people to tell them stories, right? They don't want a lot of questions. So your friend is an entertainer. So you get to make the choice of, are you going to go into their superpower and let them just entertain you and keep going and keep talking as much as they want? Or do you want the ball?

54:11 What if the thing they're saying is... Because when you hear entertainer, I interpret that as you're coming up to someone and sharing something that is fun and interesting and whatever. But there's some people that roll up and they say they talk about themselves. And that's what they want to talk about.

54:28 They want to, you know, could be a self-esteem issue. They want to convince you that they are whatever. Conversational narcissist. Okay, is that a thing? Yeah. So these are people in conversation, and this is when the levels still hold. In fact, sometimes the conversational narcissist will take themselves.

54:43 They'll walk themselves right up all three levels. They'll answer for themselves in level one. They'll tell you all about their goals, and they'll tell you the most deepest things that you did not want to know. And that's when you get verbal vomit. Like someone just like they won't stop talking and they're just telling you things you didn't even want to know.

54:57 You have a choice. You can either try to teach them that that's not the way they should be in conversation and you can literally say, is it my turn yet? Do you want to hear about mine? Do you want to hear about my goal? Right. Like if this is the person you're going to invest in and you care for and you like, you have to you have to stand up for what you want to share.

55:17 In your experience, where does that conversational narcissism come from? Insecurity. Yeah. Right. This person's insecure. I don't even know them. They're insecure. And also, my bet is they're trying to impress you. My bet is they're trying to find something to raise your eyebrows. But they don't realize that the more they talk, the more you're like, can I go home?

55:36 Do you think they know that they're a conversational narcissist? Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me? Or do they not have that level of... Because the person that I was referring to, they know they talk too much because they say it and they've had the feedback multiple... And they literally will say, I talk too much, but then they can't seem to stop because it's so deeply ingrained in them from their childhood.

55:56 Mm-hmm. So I'm wondering if they, you know, they're listening now and they go, okay, that's me. Because my next question is like, how do they fix it? Curiosity. That's an easier question. I actually don't think there's a hard and fast rule. Some conversational narcissists are aware of it and hate themselves for it.

56:11 Like they literally know they're doing it and they're like, why? Stop talking. Like they literally know what's happening and they're like, why? Why am I doing this? But they can't stop because they're so scared of the awkward silence. And by the way, we asked a couple thousand people, what is your greatest conversational fear?

56:26 I thought it was going to be rejection or judgment. No, it was awkward silences. or not knowing what to say. Very mechanical. And I thought, wow, 4,000 people, their biggest conversational fear is not being rejected. That was one of the options on the multiple choice. It's running out of things to say.

56:45 So the reason they're talking too much is because they are terrified of that moment where they're sitting with Stephen Bartlett and there's a silence. And then you're like, bye, bye. I like the silence. I mean, as a podcast, you have to come to terms with the fact that the guests might stop talking at any moment and you might not have anything else to say.

57:03 That's why I don't have a podcast. That's why I don't have a podcast. So, and then the way that they fix it is curiosity, right? I do believe in like assertive curiosity, like... Not just the follow up, like, tell me more, but like the what, the how, the why, the when. I think that those like what, how, why, when, that assertive curiosity of like, let's actually dig into this dream.

57:24 Like, let's really talk about it. Wait, I'm confused. So if we had a conversational narcissist here. Yeah. Are you telling me how they would recover from that? They would recover from it by being aggressively or assertively curious about you. Yeah. Okay, but they know, they know. I feel like they know that.

57:40 I feel like they know they talk too much. Okay, then I'm going to say something you're not going to like it. Maybe you're not giving them enough to be curious about. What I would ask next time is, are you curious about me? Or do you not feel the curiosity? Because saying, do you want to know my answer or is it my turn yet?

57:57 Is a way of being like, is there curiosity there? I think that's really important. Like I think in relational patterns, like there are really conversational patterns that we can have. So we're talking a lot about new-ish people. But how about the people you've known for a long time? My goal, my deepest wish for this podcast is that you will go have a conversation, a cornerstone conversation with someone and ask all nine questions.

58:20 Now, if you're in a conversational rut, and this can happen in friendships, it can happen with people who are used to being the over-talker in their relationship, it can happen in marriages or marriages where you only talk about logistics, this is going to break the rut because the whole point of this is turn-taking.

58:41 So I would be just so curious if you go to dinner with this person and you're like, hey, My friend Vanessa came on the pod and she gave us nine questions. Do you want to do them together? I'll go first. Could she do it? It's a she, right? He. He. Could he do it? Right? Could he do it? And so that... This is how you can break that rut to see if there's actual curiosity there.

59:04 Because I have, I always assume the best in people. I'm hoping this person is very well-intentioned, just has deep insecurity. It is the case, in my opinion. If you were to give a framework, it can sometimes break you out of a conversational rut with someone. I remember I think it was you that said to me that the key to great conversations or interactions was being interested, not interesting.

59:26 Yeah, after Dale Carnegie. Yes, I wish I had created with it. So Dale Carnegie is sort of the person who allowed me to think about being less selfish. I think that if you go into a conversation thinking all about yourself, how can I be impressive? How can I be smart and funny? And how can I get them to like me?

59:44 That's okay. But it's quite selfish. And it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. When I started thinking, how can I go into conversation putting this person at ease? How can I make them feel like they can impress me? How can I be interested to make them interesting? And hopefully that has a rebound effect of making me interesting.

1:00:04 That is a very selfless conversational generosity. One small goal for the book was to create more conversational generosity. That if you're in conversation and someone is over-talking, you can be generous enough to either say, hey, can I have a turn? Or to let them entertain you because they're entertainers, or to ask even more questions.

1:00:25 And you said to me last time that there was a study that found the most liked people were those that were interested in others in conversation. The most popular kids were the kids who had the longest list of people they liked. Yeah. Meaning, if you want to be likable, you have to go around assertively and aggressively liking as many people as possible.

1:00:47 Because if you go into conversations thinking, how could I like you? How could I like you? How could I like you more? It's less about you. And you're asking questions that are setting them up to be likable. I wonder, and I wish I could take a crack at this conversational narcissist that you know, but...

1:01:00 If I were to ask more questions of them, like really set them up to entertain me, to get deep, to actually let them go to level two and maybe even level three if they want to, would they calm down? Would their insecurity feel, I'm understood, I'm chosen, I'm loved? I think, and this is just, you're an intimidating person, right?

1:01:22 Like I, thank goodness, have confidence. But if I was dinner with you, I think I would feel a little bit nervous too. Maybe not anymore. But when I first met you for sure two years ago, my guess is that this person doesn't feel liked, doesn't feel understood by you, and doesn't feel chosen by you. And the quieter you become, when you're just trying to respect them, the quieter you become, the more they don't feel those three things as they keep talking.

1:01:45 So I would try to ask better, deeper questions, like lean into it and see if that can get them calm enough to be like, oh, he chose me. He loves me. What's interesting is I observe with people like that that they step more into the conversational narcissism with certain people. Yes, yes. Yes. So with certain individuals.

1:02:08 So for example, in this case, if I was a beautiful woman, this individual would be full blown, like word vomit, like it would fully come out. Oh. You know? Yeah. Or just women generally, even if it's a platonic relationship, becomes even more like intent on... Wants to be understood, chosen, and loved by that beautiful woman.

1:02:34 Yeah. Right? Like, such a deep desire. And so I wonder if you could disengage it with actually answering those three questions for them, like putting them at ease. I also think it's important to talk about an aspect of bad conversation is making the driver of the conversation feel like they're a bad driver.

1:02:54 Right? This person is driving conversation, right? Like, they know they're an overtalker and they're driving. And all the passengers are like, fuck. And what does a bad driver do? They get even more tense. They get even worse at it. And so the flip side of that is how can you make them feel like a better driver?

1:03:08 And one way that we accidentally – the opposite of dream building is dream killing. So dream killing is when we shut down a dream. We make someone feel not liked. We make them feel not understood. I think that very smart people have an accidental effect where they dream kill with – Logic. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1:03:26 You know, I call it my lovely smart leader is I say you're fact checking, not gut checking. If you're fact checking all the time, if you're, you know, trying to accuracy kill, but they're not there yet, you're actually creating a conversational scarcity that's going to make them feel like, oh, I have to prove myself.

1:03:44 I have to dig in. Now I'm going to talk more because I want to convince you. And so I think the opposite of dream building is dream killing. And very smart people tend to dream kill by accident, and it shuts down connection completely. Like not only will you not get to level two, you'll bounce down to level one, or you won't have a relationship with that person.

1:04:00 I was just thinking about in my previous company, we interviewed somebody, and they were extremely, extremely intelligent. And it was really obvious to me how intelligent they were. Like unbelievable. Their credentials, unbelievable. And then they went through the interview process, and the interview feedback from the people that met them was like neutral or negative.

1:04:17 I remember thinking, do you know what it is? This person is so obsessed with the pursuit of truth that they put being liked or being pleased or whatever to the side. They just care if what you're saying is true or not. That's it. And that in some respects might hold them back. It's also like why I think that this person is amazing.

1:04:35 But getting through like an interview process or those sort of social dynamics would be really tough, right? And this takes us back to why conversation is essential. Very smart people think all about their ideas, their knowledge, the facts. But you can be the smartest person in the room. But if people don't feel connected to you, they don't believe you're smarts.

1:04:54 That comes directly from the research. Competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. So you could be incredibly smart, but if you cannot manage the mechanics of connective conversation, people feel suspicious. It literally triggers a part of their brain that goes, I don't know about this person.

1:05:13 And so the reason why level one is so critical, but we can't skip it, is what we're doing is we're trying to create ease. That's another way of saying warmth, right? We're trying to make it so someone feels like they can be understood with us. And then if they're understood, they're chosen. And if they're chosen, they're loved, right?

1:05:25 Like it's a three. And this actually brings me to the third. I'm so bad at this. Let's see. I would love that. So I struggled with this, what are we on, sixth question. Because, by the way, I started this research with over 100 questions. And I was touching them. I mean, I was making everyone try every different kind.

1:05:44 I was using my students. They were trying them. I was teaching. Also, I wanted to make sure they worked at work. They worked at home and they worked with kids. You can do a lot of these and you have to alter them slightly, but I want to make sure they work across the board. And the sixth question is actually a signature question.

1:05:59 So this is taking a step back and thinking, what do you love to talk about? What do you love to talk about in conversation? What do you love to talk about in conversation? When you're talking. What do I love to talk about? Yeah, not hear about necessarily, but talk about. Oh, gosh. We're going to reverse engineer it.

1:06:17 This sixth question is about reverse engineering your love. I like to talk about psychology of people and stuff. Okay, okay. So great. Okay, so you would want to reverse engineer questions about how and why. If you love psychology and behavior, you're going to want to ask someone, why did you make that choice?

1:06:33 You know, what made you choose that path? You're going to want to ask more behavioral questions. Even in an interviewing perspective, let's talk about this for a second. So I believe in behavioral interviewing. I believe in interview questions that actually... Let you know about someone's behavior, not just their opinions.

1:06:47 So, for example, interviewers will make the mistake of asking, what's your greatest weakness? It's not a good question because they're going to answer with a prepared answer. It's not going to be real. It's not going to tell you much. I would rather you ask, what would your last manager say is your greatest weakness?

1:07:06 That's a very different question. First of all, it's not going to be as practiced. Maybe after now it will be. But you're asking the person to step outside themselves. From a behavior perspective, when we step outside of ourselves and think about someone else's opinion, we see different things, even about ourselves.

1:07:21 And likely, they're going to call your previous manager. Right? So they can confirm that in a phone call. And you could even say, you know, when I call your previous manager, what would your previous manager say is your greatest weakness? Right. you're going to get a juicy answer, right? And then you can go verify it.

1:07:35 Another behavioral technique, which is why I like behavior so much, is not just asking, tell me about a recent time that you managed a project, right? We always ask for examples in an interview. That's okay, but not great because they're going to pick the best one. What you're better off saying is, tell me about the most recent time you managed a project.

1:07:56 It should be in the last three months, two months, not a year or two ago. So asking for recency, asking for other people's opinions. The reason why I say this is because that would be crafting a type of answer that you want. Trying to craft information about a previous experience that is real and not rehearsed.

1:08:13 So for you, you'd be wanting to ask more behavior questions when you're at dinner, when you're here, obviously, because that's what you love. Many success people have... Signature questions. Like I know Amy Poehler at the end of her podcast, she always asks, what are you laughing about? What's making you laugh recently?

1:08:29 That's her signature question. Example I use in the book is Ginny Urich has a challenge a thousand hours outside, which is spending a thousand hours with her kids outside, playing more outside off of screens. And she asks everyone in her podcast, what was your favorite outdoor memory? Because she loves talking about outdoors and childhood nostalgia.

1:08:48 So the sixth question is inviting, what do you love to talk about? How can we engineer that in your conversations by looking for opportunities to bring it up? At this stage, I would turn to somebody when I feel like I've got that depth with them and I'd say, what do you love to talk about? And they might say, you know, I really love talking about sports.

1:09:06 And then are you saying that opens a door and gives me a clue as to how to connect with them? So future conversations with them should orientate towards sports or psychology, whatever their answer was. No, it would be, you can ask, what do you love to talk about? It would be, you, Stephen, love to talk about behavior.

1:09:22 So you are going to ask more behavioral questions of them. So you get to create your sixth question. Right. So like right now, because I'm talking about conversation, my signature question is, what's your favorite conversation starter? Okay. Right. When I was researching cues, it was, who's the most charismatic person you know?

1:09:40 When I was researching captivate, it was, what's your favorite body language cue? Right. Or do you ever think about body language? So it can change based on your interest, but you're creating it for yourself. Okay. So this one's a bespoke one. You get to write this one yourself. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

1:09:54 Got you. So I'm interested in psychology. So this one would be psychology related topics for me. Right. Or like what drives you. I actually think that some of the level three questions might interest you, but I'm curious. Okay. Let's see. All right. Level three. Are you ready? Wait, before we do level three.

1:10:07 Yes. Just want to close off on this. Do you talk too much test? Okay. So I have a, do you talk too much test in the book? It's right here. So you're going to ask yourself. I leave a conversation realizing I don't know much about the other person. Okay. That's a secret curiosity question. So there's five questions here.

1:10:26 And if you answer often more than three times, you're probably an overtalker. That's it. And all of them secretly, Stephen, are saying, are you curious enough? Okay. Right? Because we know that curiosity is the antidote. So I put this right at the end of level one, because you really can't go to level two if you're talking too much.

1:10:42 Okay. You're not curious enough. You're not going to learn their dream. So question one. So if I say yes to three of these, then I'm probably an overtalker. Correct. So first one is I leave a conversation realizing I didn't know much about the other person. Mm-hmm. I'd say rarely. After I finish speaking, people nod politely but don't always respond.

1:11:02 Sometimes. Oh. I love telling long, detailed stories, especially when people are too polite to interrupt. Do you ever tell a long, detailed story? Only when I'm on stage and someone has paid me to. That doesn't count. Okay. Doesn't count. Sometimes, I'd say. I've been told gently or not so gently that I talk a lot.

1:11:19 Okay. Rarely. I've never been told that. Number five, while I'm mid-story, I notice people glance around the room. Sometimes. So you pass. Okay. Now, I could have told you that also, but yeah, you pass. Okay. So it's really important because it might be creating conversational friction, right, especially at work.

1:11:38 And the best muscle you can do is asking more, talking less. And a challenge, a very specific challenge... please do a yap challenge. Do you know what a yap challenge is? Ooh, a yap challenge. A yap challenge is you open up your phone camera and you teach something or share an opinion about something without notes.

1:11:57 And you hit record. If you go naturally 15 or 30 seconds, you're probably good. If you're hitting 45 seconds, that's the max. If you're up to a minute or two minutes, you probably talk too much. Hmm. About yourself or just about yourself, but like that, that your typical answering length is longer than conversationally appropriate to a question about you.

1:12:17 A yap challenge could be share your opinion about veganism. Damn. I didn't think I could get that done in 15 seconds. What's your answer? No, not to veganism. Just generally like if it's an idea, everything in my head is a story first. So it's like, you know what though? Introverts can Introverts absolutely can.

1:12:35 And they'll often go too short. Okay. Like, for example, I'll give you a yap challenge that I was just thinking about the other day. And we're going to do it on social media. We'll do it together. Yap challenge. Someone recently asked my friend out by asking for her Instagram handle, not her number. Agree or disagree.

1:12:52 It depends. On? Her vibe. What energy was she giving and what was the context? Was that after a two-hour date? Was that... Just meeting her on the street. Rolled up on the street? I think it's actually... I agree then. Because it's less invasive. It's like, I will earn your number. Oh, wow. Give me the chance to earn your number.

1:13:13 Okay, you just convinced me. That's interesting. So, by the way, I think that was, what, 12 seconds? Okay, yeah, maybe. Right? So, like, you're keeping it tight. Yeah. I disagree, but that is an interesting nuance. I'm not going to give you my Instagram because my Instagram is performative. Everyone's Instagram is performative.

1:13:29 If you are looking at my Instagram, it's like saying, I don't want to get to know you through conversation. I'm going to look through everything and know everything about you before I decide if I want to take you out. And you take the joy out of discovery. If I'm with you and I'm like, do you have any pets?

1:13:44 And you're like, yeah, I have a dog. Then I can say, oh, how'd you get the dog? What's the dog's name? How'd you choose that name? Versus, oh, look, she has a dog named Stewie. But, you know, your number is reserved for people in your like personal, professional life. So what you're saying, if you roll up on the street, is you're saying, let me in to your personal and professional environment, stranger.

1:14:05 Whereas the public environment, which is Instagram, is, I think, a much more socially appropriate place to invite oneself into. Okay, let's fight about this. Okay. If you do that, your conversation is going to be more awkward on your first date. Because? Because you feel like you've already learned about the person.

1:14:21 So maybe you're discovering more of their public persona, but you've seen their kind of friends, where they hang out, what they do on the weekends. Do they hike or not? Do they have any pets? Oh, look, there they are at Thanksgiving. They have lots of siblings. This is, I think, why we're having awkward first date conversations, why first dates have gotten even worse, is because you're on the first date.

1:14:39 You've already discovered all level one stuff that you think you know. So now, even though you have your very first conversation, you kind of have to go to level two. It's so much harder and it's unnatural. It's unnatural to know all this information that wasn't transmitted human to human, that was done in a performative way.

1:14:57 And then you have to get in person and... It's harder to come up with conversation starters because you already know a lot. I also think what I would say is if someone were to, I'm not single, I haven't been single a long time, but if someone would say, can I have your Instagram? I would say, you know, I have one for just friends and family, but maybe you can get there one day.

1:15:14 You would say that? Yeah, I would. If I could, I would never. Because I want you to chat me, right? Like, I don't want to show you my Instagram. You're going to see everything. And like, I'd rather like, like, let's banter. Like, let's chat. Are you funny? Are you going to ask me good questions? Are you going to be a confrontational narcissist?

1:15:31 And then ask me after dinner if it's going well over text or over the phone. So you think less context results in better conversations? So just having their WhatsApp or their iMessage is gonna result in more interesting conversations than me knowing that you like hiking and puppies, and me being able to be like, have you got a Labradoodle too?

1:15:48 Oh my God, my Labradoodle is just giving birth to a couple of triplets. Yes. and less performative context. Like our social feeds are not 100% real. So it's not like you were listening to me talk about something. It's a curated highlight reel of my life. So you feel like you know me. Like people who follow me on Instagram, like they might feel like they know me, but my life is quite different than my Instagram in the sense of I show a very small piece of what I do.

1:16:14 Same right with you, right? And so I know I'm not single, but if I was I would have no casual level one banter with them that is critical, socially critical for me to understand their basics. And so when we skip level one, we do damage to our potential connection later. We create more awkwardness and more friction for ourselves.

1:16:38 So my challenge for single people is stop asking for handles and ask for numbers. Are people going to get mad at me? Well, a lot of them are meeting via dating apps now. For sure. And I think that's okay. A dating app is much more limited than an endless feed. It's like, I don't know how many photos are on dating apps these days, but that's like the most performative.

1:16:57 It's like, look at me at the gym. Look at this car that I bought. But it's not forever. Like, you can't go back to someone's Instagram since they were in high school. Right? Like, you know it's six images or ten images. You have these pre-subscribed questions. Like, I'm actually okay with that. I love dating apps.

1:17:10 I think that actually they can really connect people very quickly. But you don't know everything about you. You don't feel like you know everything about me. I feel like people on dating apps hate dating apps. Of course. Of course. But how else are we going to meet people if we have our AirPods in all the time?

1:17:24 You're not going to meet people if you're at the gym. We talked about this last time. If you have your AirPods in at the gym and someone wants to hit on you, you're not going to hear it. So we have to use dating apps. I think they're the only way that we'll be able to connect. So I'm actually, I'm pro dating app.

1:17:36 Of course, I would love for people to approach in person, but I'm not pro not talking first. And I think if someone asks for your handle, you're fair to say, it's just for my friends and family. Let's try to get there. Okay, I concede. No, I think it makes sense. It doesn't make sense. Okay, we did it.

1:17:52 It's hard to repeat. Okay, so this is a wonderful level, but it's reserved for your most important people. I think a mistake that people make is they are afraid of going too deep too quickly, and they're afraid of going deep in conversation because it feels scary to be vulnerable. And are they right?

1:18:11 They are right. Okay. If we go too deep too quickly, especially at work, and I wrote this book with work in mind, people are going to think you're weird. Right. If we share too much too quickly, it's going to be weird. And there is such a thing as vulnerability regret. Vulnerability regret is you shared something too vulnerable and it wasn't a safe space or it wasn't received well.

1:18:32 And the heartache that you get from that is soul crushing. And if you share something to do or you ask something to do too quickly, you're like, why did I do it? It's painful. Does that happen to you or no, you don't share. No, I've walked away from situations and thought, actually, maybe that wasn't the appropriate situation to share that.

1:18:47 But I've also been in situations, I immediately thought of a meeting I had two weeks ago where I was interviewing someone. And the first 25 minutes of the interview, they shared some really, really personal things about their very early childhood that I... I almost had to adjust myself to, you know, I thought I was going into an interview to like meet them and ask them about work stuff.

1:19:12 But I almost felt myself pivoting away being like, oh my gosh, I have to be more of a counselor or something. Yeah. And so I think that we actually have to gate level three. Right. I think we actually have to gate. And it's been a little confusing culturally because I think that we are loving vulnerability and that's really good.

1:19:26 And vulnerability and authenticity, there's a very fine line there. Like being authentic is great, but being too vulnerable too quickly is very awkward and sometimes not safe. So I really share, when we talk about level three, I want you to reserve it for your most important people. Okay. So level three is called your self-narrative.

1:19:45 Your self-narrative is the story you tell yourself about yourself. It is how you make sense of your journey and purpose in life. And the story you tell yourself about yourself is self-creating. Meaning, if you have a narrative of hardship and being unlucky, you are probably going to see more hardship and create more bad luck for yourself.

1:20:07 And they've proven that this, there's actually two types of self-narratives. There's a contamination narrative and a redemption narrative. People with a redemption narrative, they have a frame around the facts of their life of no matter what they do, no matter what comes their way, they're going to overcome.

1:20:26 With hard work and grit and resilience, they can overcome anything. And what's interesting about this in our research is this narrative, it holds across their life. Yes, they're facts of their life, but their work, their love, their parenting, they repeat that same redemption narrative in everything they do.

1:20:45 The other kind of narrative is a contamination narrative. People with a contamination narrative... They feel that all the hardship and all the challenge and all the struggle has happened to them and they can't make it through. They can't overcome. That no matter how hard they've worked their grit, their strength, their resilience, they're a victim of circumstance.

1:21:04 They typically feel very unlucky and very out of control. And when you have that kind of narrative, it's less about the facts of your life and more about the frames of your life, how you're seeing those facts, how you're seeing those facts. When you have a contamination narrative or you're in a relationship with someone with a contamination narrative, the only way that I think we can change that, because our narratives are changeable, these are not fixed personality traits, is via conversation.

1:21:28 So my secret hope with Level 3 conversation is when you're in a safe relationship, when you can truly share who you are, when you feel understood— you can maybe rewrite your narrative. You can maybe flip from a contamination narrative the frame of how you've seen your facts into redemption. And that is my secret goal here.

1:21:48 So how do we do that? Okay. The first thing is beginning to uncover what your narrative is and what someone else's narrative is. So the first thing we have to understand is how our brain works. Our brains are storytellers. That's why we love story. In level one, it was kind of a warm-up. Like when we're telling a story about our passions and our side hustles, we're also telling a story about ourselves all the time.

1:22:08 And so we've told a story about ourselves. And there are what I call narrative hints. In conversation, people will leak the kind of narrative that they have. So they might say, oh, everyone always zigs and I zag. Gosh, everything bad always happens to me. Oh, of course, of course, yet another thing. If people have superlatives, always, never, they tend to be more of a contamination person.

1:22:35 People who are in that contamination narrative space, they tend to see things as very black and white. They tend to see things as permanent versus redemption people tend to leak positive hints and they feel very lucky. They say, oh, good things always happen to me or there's always a silver lining. Oh, yeah, you know, just my luck.

1:22:50 I got it. Right? They're saying things about how it's happening. They're leaking their narratives. Right? Who ends up being more successful, happy, and healthy? Absolutely people with redemptive narratives. They have found that people with redemption narratives, they live longer, they have better immune systems, they have better connections, they feel happier.

1:23:07 And that is because they feel they can handle whatever is thrown at them. They have a great internal locus of control. They feel that no matter what comes at them, they can handle it. And the good news is this is learnable, right? If we begin to talk about our narratives with our children, with our partners, we can begin to teach them actually you have growth here.

1:23:23 You have agency over your narrative. This internal locus of control thing is something that I learned about when I was probably 16 or 17 in psychology class. Yeah. And what does it mean and what does the study say about the importance of it? So an internal locus of control means that you feel that you're in control.

1:23:40 You have agency over your decisions, over what happens to you, that things can happen to you in your life, but you can decide how you interact with them. You can decide how you behave. People with an external locus of control get their worth from outside sources. They feel validated when someone else tells them they look good.

1:23:58 They feel good when someone else tells them they're doing good. They're looking for external ways to feel better. They look more like, for example, vanity metrics, their likes or their follows, how many friends they have, how often they're invited. Are they getting compliments? The analogy I was thinking of then is it's almost like you either think you're a bird or you think you're on a roller coaster.

1:24:18 Tell me more. You know, a roller coaster has a fixed track. Uh-huh. Really irrespective of what you do. It's going to go up, down, left, right. Boopy. Spin. And you're just holding on and going with it. Whereas a bird feels like it has the agency to go anywhere. No rail. No rail, yeah. And some people, I think, do think that they're on a roller coaster.

1:24:37 Yeah. On a track. I mean, look, I don't want to get too deep, but if we were in a normal conversation, I would ask you about fate. Yeah. You know, I think there's questions that can begin to uncover someone's level three. Do you believe in luck? Do you believe you're lucky? Do you believe in fate? I think if you believe in fate, you're more likely to believe that you're on a roller coaster, that you're on a ride that is predetermined, and now it's up, and then it's going to go down, and they're going to have a loop.

1:25:03 So I wonder, I don't know, if someone has a high belief in faith or predetermined fate, if they would feel an external locus of control, and maybe that wouldn't be as good for their mental health. I wonder. I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection.

1:25:25 And after sitting here for two, three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO. We've taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO. We have put the question... here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it.

1:25:45 So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the Diary of a CEO conversation cards. And it is incredible what happens. These are great if you're in a romantic relationship. and you want to connect your partner more.

1:26:00 These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say, they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world, in the analog environment, connecting human to human. It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do.

1:26:19 Go to thediary.com and you can get these conversation cards right now. So going back to this idea of these contaminators. So we're listening for narrative hints and we can ask questions like, are you lucky? By the way, if you ask this question, it's a sneaker because it sounds so casual when you ask, are you lucky?

1:26:40 But their answer really matters. Either there's three answers for are you lucky? One, oh, yes. Yes, I feel lucky. When I asked you this last time, you said yes. Yeah, I think I can't look at, I feel like I have so much privilege in my life that I feel like I am lucky. Yes, yes. I feel the same. I'm so grateful that I get to have this super unique career.

1:27:01 So I feel lucky, you feel lucky. So yes, if someone says yes right away, that tells you a lot about them. That means they probably have a high amount of gratitude. They probably have a high amount of control or agency. And they also have confidence. The quickness, the speed of their answer matters here.

1:27:20 what? No, I don't think I'm lucky. Now, this is a really important thing to know about them. And I don't think you should try to change it, right? Like I think that that's a version of toxic positivity telling someone, oh, but you're so lucky. You know, think of all the things that you should be grateful for.

1:27:37 Usually that actually makes someone dig in. It makes them feel very misunderstood. You're the best thing you can do if someone says they don't feel lucky is to understand it. Why? What are the forces? When did that happen? Did you ever feel lucky before? Sometimes people can flip from lucky to unlucky with a very bad circumstance.

1:27:54 And it is crucial that you understand that before you judge it. So curiosity gets engaged. If someone says they're unlucky, I think that's an opportunity to really reach out and meet someone where they're at. Because in that moment, they might. Are you going to disagree with me? No, no, no. I was just thinking about how wonderful of a question that is for when you first meet someone in an interview or a first date.

1:28:15 I was like, maybe I should ask people in an interview, do you think you're lucky? You should. Because what is that revealing? If they say yes, it's revealing… Multitudes, right? Their gratitude, their perspective on life, their internal locus of control. They're an optimist. Often, not always, but often.

1:28:30 Sometimes it can be realists. Okay. Right? Like, I am objectively lucky because I have all these things that can be realists too. But man, you're going to learn a lot. The whole point of level three is predicting behavior. If you know their luck, you're going to be able to predict behavior. A lot of how they are in a relationship, how they are as a friend, how they are going to be at work.

1:28:48 Right? Fate, I think, is an interesting one to ask someone. And then there's other questions that seem silly but actually have tremendous meaning. And level three is all about meaning. Okay, so the third answer for Lucky Thank You is that person who is afraid to answer. And I have asked this question of thousands of people.

1:29:08 And you get this bucket of, um, well... Kind of. Now, this is very interesting because this tells you they're probably not that introspective. So it's one of two things. They actually don't know. They literally have not ever thought about it. And they will say to you, I've never thought about it. And they're literally sitting in front of you, reanalyzing their entire life, trying to answer this question for you.

1:29:31 They've never considered it. So that's also helpful. That's helpful. If you're in a relationship and someone's not that introspective, that's good to know. Not good or bad, just good to know, especially if you value that. Like, introspection is one of my core values. So, you know, it might not bode well for me.

1:29:46 Or second, they don't feel safe with you yet. It can be a hint that you went too fast. If someone says, I kind of, or I'm not sure, you might have jumped to level three too quickly and they are not ready to share or they are embarrassed about something. They have shame or they have something in their past that they feel is very unlucky, but they don't feel ready to share it.

1:30:09 Have they done studies on this particular question? I think only we have. Only you have. Richard Wiseman has done a lot of research on luck specifically. And there's like a luck test you can give someone. We did this in our lab. So it's an official luck test to see how lucky you think you are. It's like a 10-question diagnostic.

1:30:29 And it asks all these different variations of that question. So it is academically studied. But I don't think what's studied, at least not yet, is luck. how your answer is going to dictate your life. Like, I would love to know, and maybe future research in our lab is, if you consider yourself very lucky, do you make more money?

1:30:43 Do you make less money? Is there any income? Are you older? Are you younger? Are you a child of privilege or not? So I think it's coming. I mean, I think that's where this excitement kind of comes from. At least it gets me excited as a behavior researcher. I was just looking at that study by Dr. Richard Wiseman.

1:31:05 He discovered that people who answer, yes, I am lucky, actually generate their own good fortune by acting in very specific ways. They have lower anxiety. They have higher extroversion. They tend to talk to lots of people and make lots of friendships and relationships. High openness to experience. Relentless optimism.

1:31:23 That's very, very interesting. I have considered, I've really considered this doing a luck workshop, where all I do in the workshop is help you harvest your own feelings of luck. It is so healing. It is so... fulfilling to feel lucky, to wake up in the day and feel lucky, it's better than gratitude, right?

1:31:43 Gratitude is sort of shaming in its own way. I'm like kind of anti-gratitude. But feeling like you're really, really lucky is so empowering. And so I've thought about creating Luck Labs, like a little luck workshop where you can come and we're going to convince you that you're lucky because it's that good of an investment in your feelings of happiness.

1:31:59 I would like to ask the audience. I'm just super interested. I would like to ask all the people listening now, do you guys feel lucky? And I would like honest answers in the comments section. And I know you just heard us say that lucky people are going to have better lives. Just be completely honest.

1:32:16 Just for pure research purposes. And do you know what? I know people that don't feel lucky are going to be honest. Because... They're going to be honest. They're going to be honest. And they're going to tell you exactly why. Yeah. And they're going to get really mad at us because they're going to say that something really bad happened to them.

1:32:26 And how dare we tell them that luck is good. That's what's going to happen because I've heard them do it. Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me? No, get mad at him. No, it's fine. You can get mad at me. It's fine. I have no shell. But this is why I'm asking because I want to, I want to, I'm coming from one perspective, from one experience that I've had in my life.

1:32:41 And I feel like I am grateful and I've been very privileged. So I would like to understand why other people do not feel lucky in their lives. And... You know, I guess it would also be surprising to hear that some people have been through objectively horrific things, but some of them might still feel lucky.

1:32:55 So that would be interesting as well. So I'll be reading the comments. And that is also fact versus frame. Okay. So the way that we begin to rewrite our story, and I believe so much in self-authorship, right? Yes, there's a story you tell yourself about yourself, but you also are the author of your own life, right?

1:33:12 You're the author of your own narrative. The way that we begin to take up the pen, like become the author of our own life, is we ask ourselves questions about, why do I have that idea? What is the evidence for that idea? The facts might be there, but our frame of them is different. So, for example, let's take a breakup.

1:33:28 And I can almost always find out someone's contamination or redemption narrative if I ask them about a breakup. People with contamination narratives will almost always say, the breakup nearly destroyed me. I don't trust men anymore. I don't trust women anymore. You know, it just took from me. I feel like a shell of myself.

1:33:46 And it stays that way. Everyone has a period of a bad breakup time, but they never get through that, that they feel like that breakup fundamentally changed them for the worse. Whereas someone with a positive redemption narrative, even if it was a horrific breakup, they'll say, I will never do that again.

1:34:04 That made me stronger. It was horrible. It was one of the worst times of my life. But I know now who not to choose and I know who to choose. It made me feel stronger. It's that anti-fragile piece. Would you give someone a second date if on the first date they turned to you and when you asked them the question, are you a lucky person?

1:34:20 They went, absolutely not. I probably wouldn't. You're going to be so mad. You are so cooked. They are going to get you. Get out, guys. You are so cooked. I'm not single. You are so cooked. It's hard. It was a trap. That's what it was. You're so mean. You're like, let's throw us into the fire. Oh, don't worry.

1:34:42 I got a wine bottle coming. I was thinking. I was thinking. No, would you? Gosh, I'm asking you now. If someone, if I was on the first date and I said, are you a lucky person? And they said to me, absolutely not. Okay, I'd be curious. Sure, of course. And I want to hear what they meant. I wouldn't leave.

1:35:03 I wouldn't leave the date. But if they were then just like extremely pessimistic, I would probably arrive at this assumption that this is probably not going to be a match because that's not my inclination. And it doesn't, it takes too much energy out of me. And that is also because I think this is a beautiful bridge to the next concept.

1:35:21 Once you begin to uncover these narrative hints, okay, you're talking about luck, you're talking about redemption or contamination narrative, I believe, and this is more art than science, that there are five archetypes of these stories. So I have harvested hundreds, I wouldn't say thousands, hundreds of narratives.

1:35:36 It's actually quite hard to ask someone, what is your self-narrative? It's a very hard question, but there are questions that we can begin to talk about that do harvest it. I notice patterns. They're the same narratives over and over again, and there are about five of them. I think that we share an archetype.

1:35:52 I think we do. Now maybe I'm flattering myself. So the first archetype is the ambitious hero, and I think this is us, but you'll tell me. So the ambitious hero has had challenges and obstacles, but they feel that their grit and resilience they've been able to overcome. They struggle because they are never satisfied.

1:36:10 And what is an archetype? Sorry, I got excited. Yes. So this is not like a personality type. It's not like Meyer Briggs or Enneagram. Those are quite like stable. This is a fluid archetype of how you're seeing your story in this moment. For example, I might ask you, if you had to write a memoir, what would the title of your memoir be?

1:36:31 And this is going to impact how I have conversations with people. This is going to impact how you have conversations with people, how you behave interpersonally, so how you act at work. Like an ambitious hero is going to act very, very differently at work than a contented pragmatist. And is it going to impact who I'm attracted to platonically and romantically?

1:36:47 Absolutely. It dictates your relationship patterns. Okay. Right. Your conversational patterns, how you converse, how you bond, how you connect. And more importantly, since I'm so interested in work conversations, how you work, how you view effectiveness, how you view efficiency. My founders, right, ambitious hero founders are going to have the same struggles over and over again.

1:37:03 They're going to be very different than the contended pragmatist founder. So the ambitious hero, what's their sort of internal monologue? Their internal monologue is, I got this. I can do this. Hustle, hustle more. More, bigger, more, bigger, bigger, more. I can do that better. I can do that bigger, right?

1:37:18 It's like we, I get, you know, shiny object syndrome is like one of the nicer ways to talk about ambitious heroes. You know, shiny object syndrome? No. It's like a founder who won't stop trying new initiatives and keeps throwing new ideas on the table when they haven't finished their first one. Yeah.

1:37:31 Yeah. Okay. Do you have that? Yeah. Well, yes, but I have put systems in place to make sure that it doesn't sink the company. As Jeff Bezos said, Jeff Bezos said, I've got enough ideas to sink the company. And he has to learn to release them at a cadence that the company can tolerate. So that's what I've learned.

1:37:50 And that's beautiful because that's self-knowledge. And everything that we're talking about is self-knowledge, right? If you're able to talk this through, you have self-knowledge to go to your team. When I come to you with a new idea next week, say no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't let me do that. It's too much, right?

1:38:03 So behaviorally, if you are the ambitious hero, you know you dream big, you can burn out because you dream so big. I tend to – like work almost regulates me. Like when I'm working, I'm like, I'm being so productive. We are helping people. Help more people. Help all the people. Right? Like it's too much.

1:38:22 And so we can burn out from a productivity perspective. We have shiny objects. And in conversation and relationships, people sometimes don't always understand our drive. Like we're so driven. We get accused of hustle culture a lot. We can burn other people out by trying to bring them with us on how fast we want to work, how long we want to work.

1:38:39 You know, those are not necessarily bad things, but they're traits. They're behavioral traits. Okay. And by the way, so this is number one, the ambitious hero. One way that you can kind of suss these out is asking the question, what character are you most like? What book, movie, or TV character are you most like?

1:38:57 Not look like, life choices, personality, core values. And I said pursuit of happiness, which is, yeah. Yeah. Which is? Ambitious hero. Yeah, but why did you choose that character? Because he... The reason why I chose the character was because when I was 18, 19 years old, and I was literally shoplifting food to feed myself, I watched that movie randomly.

1:39:18 And I was in bed that day, and it really made me feel like... Like the journey I was on, you know, when he was in the, he was in the like disabled toilet with his kid. The toilet scene. Yeah. And I remember like my life in shades felt a little bit like that at the moment. Just, you know, kind of doing things to feed myself that would, you know, and keep the lights on and swerving these landlords because my rent was five months late and all the kind of games I played to try and just survive.

1:39:43 And then he went on to be successful. So it was, it gave me a lot of hope. So, and he's also black. Yeah. So it was really important in that interaction that I didn't assume about that character. I asked you why, and then you told me a story about what you saw and when you saw it. A really critical part of this exercise is that you ask someone about the character and then you say why, what traits, because the traits that they say next are going to tell you every single thing about that person.

1:40:11 For example, if I ask someone, you know, what person are you most like? And they say, Mother Teresa. I say, oh, you know, why? You know, I might not agree with them. Maybe I don't see that. But whatever they say next is going to tell me a lot about how they view themselves, whether it's true or not. And this is the hardest part about Level 3, and it's the most inconvenient part of Level 3.

1:40:31 You probably won't agree. Okay. There's a lot of times where people in my life have told me self-narratives, and I'm like, What's yours? What character are you most like and why? Okay, so I relate most with Claire Dunphy from Modern Family. Especially in her entrepreneurial years, most people would be surprised to actually identify first as a mother, not an entrepreneur.

1:40:53 Most of my day is with my kids. I'm a little awkward. I'm very neurotic. And so I resonate most with her. And that ambitious working mom is sort of what I'm constantly struggling with. Constantly. Yeah. Especially as an ambitious hero because I want to do both perfectly and I cannot. So by the way, if you're having trouble with this question, this is the one way that I think AI can help.

1:41:21 I have my own relationship with AI, but AI can be a great brainstorm partner. It can be a great conversational practice partner. It can be a great role-playing partner. And this is actually one way that I like it. So if you're not sure, if you're like, Vanessa, I don't know. I don't know what character I am.

1:41:35 Go to AI and ask this. What book, movie, or TV character is most like me in the way that I treat you, especially if you have a relationship with your AI? I am fill in the blank. So for me, it was mom, entrepreneur, neurotic. My personality is, how do you describe a personality? My core values are? What character is most similar to me?

1:42:03 And it will pull a bunch of characters that are those traits. So this is the one way that it can help you sometimes brainstorm. Okay. The ambitious hero. Right? We started with that. Yeah. Architect number one. The second one is called the content. I called it the contented pragmatist. Again, these are a little more art than science.

1:42:21 The contented pragmatist is somebody who likes it as it is. They're quite content, very happy with where things are. They don't really need to change it if it's not broken. They are not very ambitious because they're very grounded in where they are. They love habit and ritual and tradition. In conversation, relationally, they struggle when people push them to try harder or do more.

1:42:48 Because they're like, I'm good. Life is good. Why would we change things? I have two very specific people in my life who are very annoyed by me as the ambitious hero because I have a new goal every month. And I'm constantly like, they're like, I love smoothies or they make great granola. And I'm like, you should bottle it up and sell it at farmer's markets.

1:43:08 And they're like, but why? And I'm like, but why not? Right. So relationally, they're often seen as unambitious, but actually they're just quite content. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Do you know someone like that? I do. I was just thinking also about just business generally and how when you're hiring teams or even in relationships, you can get a contented pragmatist holding back an ambitious hero.

1:43:28 And I've often had friends come to me and say, like, I've got this big startup idea that I want to launch, but my girlfriend and my husband is... Yeah. Telling me to be realistic. And they tend to be a little bit more fear-based. It's not that they're negative, but they are so contented that they're very, very hyper-practical.

1:43:45 I also think on a team, it is important to know what role will be best served by this. ambitious roles, growth roles, rainmaker roles, leaders who are in an industry of change. Some like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of finance conferences and I work with a lot of folks in banking. Sometimes the ambitious heroes can really be crushed in those roles because there isn't a lot of fast-moving growth in those companies.

1:44:12 A contended pragmatist can do really well in a very stable traditional industry with a lot of regulation because they are very happy to live in that regulation. You might want someone might. I say might because it really depends on your company, but in a corporate culture, you know, you might want a contended pragmatist running your books.

1:44:29 They're quite conservative. They're not going to make a big leap here, right? And they're also, they're like, let's keep it as it is. Let's know what we're doing. Don't break, don't change if it's not broken, right? So you have to think about your roles. In a hiring manager, it depends on what your company is like.

1:44:45 And in terms of conversation tips, are there different tips for different archetypes? An ambitious hero, they are going to get so much dopamine talking about goals, talking about new, talking about progress. They are juiced by progress and they want to hear about progress too. So not only are they wanting to like, you know, I, when someone asks me, how are you?

1:45:08 It takes everything in me to not share my metrics. Like, I know that's not socially acceptable. So I have to be like, I'm doing great. The business is exploding. And then I just stop, right? Because it would be weird if I was like, we have 305% growth on Instagram, you know, like, right? Because we love ambition.

1:45:23 I also love ambition in others. Oh my God. When I hear about my friend's side hustle that's growing, that's all my text. All my check-in text, I'm just thinking about you, is how's the biz? How's the traffic? How are the book sales? How are the movie sales? I want to hear about growth. A contended pragmatist, they want to talk about ritual.

1:45:40 They want to talk about what works. They want to savor life's pleasures. They're very good at savoring. And by the way, this can be a wonderful relationship sometimes. Because sometimes the contended pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero— it. Enjoy it. You've worked so hard, like just taking the view for a moment.

1:45:58 And so they love gratitude. They love habit, ritual routine. They love to be honored for what works. They're the ones who will make a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner and they want to have that three hour dinner and savor it and not talk about next year and not talk about goals and just savor this moment and talk about what they did last year and the year before that.

1:46:17 A little bit different. Okay. Okay, this is, I think, the most important one to talk about, actually. I think it's the least understood of all the archetypes, which is the selfless helper. Okay, this is such a clear narrative. I almost always can predict it within the first few minutes of conversation.

1:46:36 And that is because selfless helpers, their entire story is about giving. Their entire reason for being is being of service. They almost always pick careers that are of service. They almost always pick careers, teachers, coaches, trainers, nurses, doctors. And that is because they are so ingrained that to have worth is to help.

1:46:59 And oftentimes where they can sometimes get into trouble is they don't feel worthy if they are not helping. And so they help so much that there's nothing left. They have compassion burnout or compassion fatigue because they are giving and giving and giving and giving. They cannot say no. In a relationship, they are beautiful to be in a relationship with because they are givers, right?

1:47:23 They are nurturers. They are giving. A lot of parents can flip into self-helpers once they become a parent. I've seen this happen with both moms and dads. The moment they have a baby, they flip into self-help because all of a sudden their purpose is theirs to take care of this little person. The problem is that they have a really hard time saying no.

1:47:44 That people pleases. Yeah. They struggle with boundaries. They say yes to too much. And they put themselves last. Can be both good and bad in a relationship. And so if you're in a relationship with them, sometimes half of it is just letting them stand up to protect themselves. To not give too much. And I mentioned this very briefly earlier, but I've had many friends who are selfless helpers and they attract takers.

1:48:08 They attract high-conflict people. You know what I mean by high-conflict? Oh, okay. Yeah. A high-conflict person is Bill Eddy's work. He estimates that 10% of the population is a high-conflict person. A high-conflict person is someone who... Thrives with drama. They create difficulty in their relationships.

1:48:32 They almost like to have difficult conversations. They thrive with that kind of drama. They see an absolute. So they often speak in like black or white. They see no nuance. They weaponize emotions. These days, they often sometimes use psychology to their advantage by taking advantage of people. And the worst high conflict people, and this is where I've noticed it in my work when I was listening and reading Bill Eddy's work, I was like, they actually are enablers.

1:49:03 They can get other people to do their dirty work for them. So they can sometimes put a seed in a selfless helper's ear and the selfless helper will go, oh, how dare they? And they'll go fight for you. And so sometimes selfless helpers, they're roped into things that are not necessarily what they should be doing because they are standing up for the person they care about.

1:49:22 And so if you're dealing with a selfless helper in terms of conversation. Yes. Sometimes they even think talking about themselves is taking advantage. Okay. So you might sometimes in conversation, like you're asking them a question. They're like, oh, no, no. Enough about me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, let's talk about you.

1:49:36 Yeah. Oh, I want to help you. How can I help you? It's so funny. Like my friends who are selfless helpers, I cannot get them to tell me what I can help them with because all they want to do is check in on me. I'm like, no, no, I really do want to hear about you. So sometimes they won't take the ball because they're worried it's selfish.

1:49:51 And so sometimes getting them to open up can be hard because they feel like their needs are not important, but their needs are very important. Like they're such beautiful people. So I think in conversation, the greatest gift we can give a selfless helper is letting them know that you're understood. I value you.

1:50:05 And getting to know you is not taking from me. It's giving to me. I have to tell my friends, it makes me feel good to help you. It makes me feel good to hear about what's going on for you. You're actually giving to me by telling me about yourself, not taking from me. So we have to gift to them. I think we have to be extremely conversationally generous with them.

1:50:25 Do you know anyone? Yes, I do. Oh, lovely. Yeah. And it all tracks with everything you said. And corporate, all these apply to work. These are great if you have, not always, but often managers can do great things as selfless helpers because they're so attuned to others that they are very good at bringing out performance.

1:50:46 Not always, but I've seen really, really amazing managers who they know the ROI, they know metrics, like they're following their KPIs, but they're so good at finding how does this person need to be helped? How could this person be their best selves? Oh, that person has a great expert power. They're so good at that that they bring up performance in everyone.

1:51:04 But they might avoid that difficult conversation. These people tend to be a little bit conflict avoidant. They can be conflict avoidant, but they're very good at framing everything as we're in this together. So yes, they can be conflict avoidant, but the really good managers who are excellent conversationalists, they are able to frame bad news and hard feedback as, I want to help you.

1:51:28 The reason I'm giving you this feedback is because I so want you to succeed. And the person on the receiving end goes, I trust you. I know that. Okay. So yes, if they're not excellent conversationalists, it's true. They can be avoidant. But if they learn how to be assertive, and by the way, learning, you know, you can be assertive, then they're tremendous in conversation because people trust them.

1:51:48 Because they come from a good place. Okay. The creative disruptor. So the creative disruptor, this is my most challenging archetype. So I'm really going to try to talk about this archetype in a positive way. Creative disruptors do not like rules. Their entire ethos is... breaking things. They want to disrupt.

1:52:10 They want to go anti-norm. They want to be countercultural. They're the ones who are like, I don't need a blueprint. And they, them and me in conversation is not always the best. They're probably the ones in the comments who are like, well, this doesn't apply to me because of all these reasons. Because they want to push.

1:52:29 They want to challenge. And this is wonderful because they often are the really creative thinkers, right? Right. They often are the ones who are thinking outside the box the most. They're often the ones who are willing to challenge the way something has always been done. The problem is, is sometimes that can rub people the wrong way.

1:52:46 And sometimes these folks can thrive over conflict in the way of it's just it's fun for them. Like it's fun to negotiate. It's fun to push. Litigators, my litigators who are watching, I find that my litigators tend to fall into this into this category. or very disruptive entrepreneurs. I know there's ones on this show.

1:53:04 I've listened to the interviews with them, and I go, oh, that's a creative disruptor. It's someone who they're not only building something, but they're not quite an ambitious hero because they want to break things. They want to build it and break it. They want to reinvent the entire system, and they're doing it.

1:53:18 Edward Snowden is one of the examples I give in the book of, he wanted to change something, and also he wanted to stick it to the man. He wanted to break the system that he was in. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Do you struggle with this? Do you like this? In interviews, they're very interesting. They're really good in interviews.

1:53:35 I actually interviewed someone the other day that was like that. So interesting. Because they have a contrarian view by nature. Everything they say is like deeply contrarian. But I think having people like that that are challenging around, their like default is challenge is quite useful. Yes. It helps me be sort of refine my own points of view.

1:53:53 And they live as dream killers. Yeah. They live as dream killers. It can be amazing, but it can be exhausting. So in conversation, it's good to go in prepared to know, ah, I need this. I want to get stronger. I want to be anti-fragile. They'll break for you to make you stronger. Or like, I'm a delicate flower right now.

1:54:09 I cannot do the dream killing. I'm exhausted by it. It's a fine line between that and like pessimism. Not always, but sometimes they are pessimistic. Not always. We have a creative disruptor friend who I did an Instagram post about this. And I said, you know, I have a friend who always says, I hate everything.

1:54:28 I hate everything. I hate everything. And Instagram knew it was him and served him the video. And he texted me. He's like, is this me? And I was like, yes. Instagram knew it was him. Okay, the last one is one we've actually already touched on, which is the unlucky struggler. So this is someone with a contamination narrative.

1:54:45 And they feel that no matter what they've done, they are unlucky. They are struggling. They often feel stuck. They often feel misunderstood. They often feel overlooked. And the problem with Unlucky Strugglers, the character you want to think of is like George Costanza from Seinfeld. Right? Like, oh, everything is bad for me.

1:55:07 They can be hilarious, but they are tortured. They are tortured. And in conversation – It's really hard for ambitious heroes to not try to convince them they're not unlucky. Like my biggest challenge with my unlucky strugglers in my life is to not try to flip them into something that they're not or try to convince them that they're actually lucky.

1:55:29 They also in conversation can be very funny. They can make fun of themselves. They're so humble. They're low self-esteem. Some of the best comedians are unlucky strugglers. And so they're beautiful to be around. But sometimes you wish that they had more confidence in the confidence you see in them. They had it too.

1:55:50 If you're in a conversation with one of these people that you don't gel with, is there a... I mean, you talk about it a little bit in the book, but what are the ways to get out of a bad conversation without offending people? Oh, my goodness. It's called a graceful exit. So there's a behavior concept, the peak end effect, that we remember the first few minutes of a conversation and the last few minutes of conversation, which...

1:56:09 But we tend to focus a lot on the first impression. Peak end. Like, so when you're remembering something, you remember the peak of a conversation and the end of the conversation. Okay. Yeah. But we also, of course, the first impressions are incredibly important as well. We tend to over-index on the first impression.

1:56:22 So we think a lot about our first few minutes, our opening line, maybe the highlight, but we don't really think about the end. But actually, that's what we leave people with. So I have a formula. You know I love a formula. Yeah. This calms my anxiety when I'm in a conversation, it's time to go. Either we're not feeling it, like we're just not clicking, or we got to go.

1:56:41 First is a future cue. So it's future cue plus compliment or action. So a future cue is when you ask about or mention something coming in the future. The reason for this is it's a subtle way to shift the brain into not here, later. Okay, so let's role play. Yeah, let's do it. We're at a party. We're having some wine and things get a little bit awkward.

1:57:01 We ran out of things to say to each other. Do you have any fun plans coming up this weekend? Do you have any fun? It's good because there's this wine bar across town that I'm really into. So I'm probably just going to go there, I think, with some friends. Oh, my gosh. Well, I hope it's lovely. Make sure to try.

1:57:11 I love a Chardonnay. I don't know if you like white wine. Be sure to try it. Future Q. So I just asked you about a future and I'm going to wish you well on it, which already gets us into future mode. And then I'm going to end on a compliment or an action. It was so lovely talking to you. I hope you have a great time with that wine bar.

1:57:28 I'm going to go get some more coffee. Have you got any fun plans coming up? I have so many fun plans coming up. My daughter's just started school, and so we're having a celebratory Labor Day weekend this weekend. What would you love to talk about? I'm going to share that soon. That's a signature question.

1:57:41 What have you always wanted to learn? See, what if they just go straight back in, though? Because that's happened to me before where I've tried to... Okay, this is where the action and the compliment, that second piece. So the future cue is we mentioned future, and you're right. They might keep going with it.

1:57:53 The action and compliment is really important. So wrapping up the conversation sounds like it's been so wonderful talking to you. And I'm using an exit voice. Do you hear the exit voice? And our tone really matters here. So it's been so wonderful talking to you. I hope that that goes great this weekend.

1:58:08 Or be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn. I was so happy we were able to trade numbers. So you're mentioning the action that's going to come later. And it's using that closing voice. And then the action. I'm going to go grab more coffee. I'm going to go say hi to the host. I'm going to run to the ladies' room.

1:58:22 I'm going to head home. then they cannot. You've ended it then. And you also can use nonverbal cues here. So the moment I take a step back, the moment I angle my body towards the door, our brain subtly sees, ah, they are literally trying to physically disengage. So usually I pair those with those subtle nonverbal cues of a slow backup and an angle towards the door.

1:58:42 And remember, you can be assertive with this. The worst kind of last impression is a lingering awkwardness. There is nothing worse than a... Well, this has been good. It's been good for you. It's been good for me. Well, so, those are the worst. So be assertive with this. If you want to end it, if you're feeling it's the end, do it.

1:59:04 It's been so great talking to you. I'm going to grab some more coffee. Good luck at the wine bar this weekend. Have so much fun. Right? Like, be assertive with it or else it will linger and that is just kryptonite for charisma. On this point of being assertive. Oh, yes. I was talking to some friends the other day about people that have aura and riz.

1:59:21 Oh, yeah. Who has aura and riz? Who does? I don't know. I don't really know what the words mean. I kind of know what aura means, but I don't really know what riz means. So I'm curious, like, how you define those terms. And, like, how does one cultivate aura and riz? Okay. I think aura and riz, and the only reason this is front of mind is my daughter asked me.

1:59:40 She heard one of my YouTube videos, and she said, what is charisma? She asked me that. And I was like, ooh, like she's eight. I said, charisma or riz or aura is someone that you really want to be around. It's when they walk into a room, you want to go over and talk to them. You want to sit near them.

1:59:57 You want to listen to them. You want to work with them. You want to play with them. And I said, do you know anyone like that? And she goes, oh, yes. And she named, so interesting, she named two kids in her class that I had already identified as very charismatic. Like I knew, in my mind, I knew who the charismatic kids were in her class.

2:00:15 I had popped them, right? I saw them. They're the kids you really wanted to be around. They have this aura about them. And she named those exact two kids. So I think that that definition works. It's someone that we are drawn to verbally, physically. I think also some of it can be physical and there's something hormonal there as well.

2:00:33 But it's someone we're drawn to. Okay, so based on the 20 years of research you've done, if you were trying to teach me to have aura and riz, what are like the basics? Be really easy to talk to. Okay. Right, so the point of level one is to put someone at ease. We like to be around people who are, one, clearly signaling.

2:00:56 We don't like people who are mute with their body language. We don't like people who under signal. We like people who clearly like us, right? So we have to be very allowed with our liking. So saying things like, it's always so fun talking to you. Or, oh, you always have the best stories. Oh, you always make me laugh.

2:01:13 I love when you're put on my team. So clearly signaling like and verbally. I think there's something called signal amplification bias, which is this bias that we have that we think we're being really obvious with our cues, but we are not in fact being obvious. We think that people know that we like them.

2:01:29 Of course they know that we like them. But actually people underestimate liking, right? The liking gap. So we like people who are very clearly broadcasting likes. And I have a funny story, if I may. So this hit very close, embarrassingly, to home. Because of my job, I don't know if this happens to you, my friends often ask me to suss out their partners, like potential partners.

2:01:51 So like a friend will be like, hey, I met a new guy. Can you go out dinner with us and tell me what you think? Does that hit you all? Absolutely not. Oh, my. You're like, nobody asks me. So I get this a lot. And by the way, I'm just a regular person. So I'm always like, are you sure you really want to know what I'm – yes.

2:02:10 So I go on a lot of like second or third little ghosty coffee dates to suss out the guy or gal. I bet you love that. It makes me feel needed. It makes me feel needed. Okay. I also love eavesdropping on like the date conversation. So she said, I really want you to meet this guy. Let's call him Schmobbert.

2:02:28 Okay? Okay. Okay? And so we go on this dinner. We have like a Mediterranean platter. And, you know, he was okay. You know, I was like, okay. He's nice. But I wasn't like, green flag, green flag, you know. It's kind of like, meh. So the next day, I get the call. She's like, hey, what did you think? And I'm about to say, it's only okay when she goes, you know what?

2:02:52 He just loved you. oh, what? She said, oh, you know, he thought you were so funny and he already bought your Audible book and he just loved talking to you. The most – I started to like him more. Like it was so embarrassing because as she was telling me all these things about how he liked me, I was like, you know, that schmaubert, he is a great guy.

2:03:17 He's clever. He's so smart. He liked my – he liked my jokes, really? She's like, yeah, he just – you know, he just really had a good time with you. And I felt like I liked him more in that moment. And I was horrified by my own response. And I realized – We so want to be liked that when someone clearly signals liking, it makes us like them more, right?

2:03:37 So we can be charismatic. One is we send clear signals of liking. But also two, and we talked about this a little bit last time, is fundamentally 82% of our impressions of people are based on warmth and competence. So people who are first and is first signaling, I'm open, I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective, make us feel like I'm in good hands.

2:04:04 In this way, every human being we first meet, we're trying to answer two questions. Can I trust you and can I rely on you? So the second thing that charismatic people are doing is they're signaling, you can trust me. And you can rely on me. I'm going to get it done. I'm going to only speak when I know something.

2:04:19 I'm going to be assertive. I'm going to carry us through this conversation. I think that sort of this came after cues in a good way because cues is very much about picking your signals. But conversation is about being a bit assertive about the plan. Right? Like, if you read this book, you are going to feel in control in conversation.

2:04:36 You're going to feel like you're approaching a conversation and you know what you want to do if you have intention. We like that. Charismatic people are like... They carry us, right? Like they're like, we got this. We're going to do level. I'm going to ask about this. I'm going to do dream killing. And if I like you, if I like you, we're going to talk about your character.

2:04:53 And so I think that that plan is a secret door into charisma. Is there anything else that, you know, people accidentally do that holds them back from being someone of high aura? Yes, they try to be impressive. Now I know we talked about this before, but here's what happens when you go into the conversation, trying to sound smart, trying to impress people with your accolades and your background, is you actually end up creating distance.

2:05:22 I have a story where this felt very, very real. So I was living in Austin, Texas. I moved since then, but I was in Austin, Texas. And I was invited to a VIP party. She lives down at the beach in LA. I do. So if anyone wants to do lunch or dinner or breakfast with Vanessa, I'll share her number in the comments section.

2:05:38 It'll be pinned. Yeah. Exactly. So I was in Austin and I was invited to this VIP party and I was like, oh man, why am I being invited? So imposter syndrome. So we get there and I'm like, oh, I know that person's YouTube channel. I know that person. The people I immediately recognized. And I'm like, whoa.

2:05:59 And then of course, within the first five minutes, the leader of this group says, we're going to get in a circle and we're going to get in a circle and we're going to get in a And we are going to introduce ourselves. And this is like... So we get in a circle, and the first person basically is like, I'm a billionaire, and I invented the internet, or something like that.

2:06:18 And the second person is like... I would love to know what they actually said. That's what you heard. That's what I heard. I was like, great. I invented the internet. Like, it was so impressive, it hurt, you know? And I was like, okay, okay. It was the first person, is that right? The second person is like...

2:06:34 I cured cancer, right? Like amazing. And it was just like person after person. It was like getting more and more impressive. And like it's slowly coming to me. And I was like, everyone was trying to be impressive, right? Like they were saying things that were meant to shock and wow and awe you. It gets to me and I was like, My name is Vanessa, and I'm a recovering awkward person, and I help smart, awkward people with my books and my YouTube channel.

2:07:03 And everyone laughed and took a deep breath. Now, I have other accolades that I could have shared, but I was like, it's nothing in comparison. And also, I just wanted to be a little vulnerable, so I said, and I don't know why I was invited to this party. And everyone laughed, right? There's like a little bit of vulnerability.

2:07:20 every single person after me said, I'm a recovering awkward person. So they also were able to feel awkward. So it changed the nature of the rest of the invites, the rest of the introductions. And then afterwards, the circle breaks up for networking. And most people came over to me, not the billionaire, not the cure of cancer, not the saving the earth climate change guru, but wanted to talk to me about awkwardness and about my YouTube channel and about they're smart, but they feel uncomfortable.

2:07:48 And I realized, like, I was just the easiest person to talk to in that circle. You have aura, Vanessa. You have Riz. I was the easiest person to talk to in that circle. And so I think that if we can... Do you have aura, Vanessa? You parlayed that one out there. Maybe when my makeup is done. Do you have aura?

2:08:06 When my makeup is done, maybe. Maybe when my makeup is done. You're deflecting. Yeah, I mean, I don't – maybe – I don't know. Do I? You do have a work, yeah. So I think that I just share that because we don't have to put so much pressure on ourselves to be impressive. In fact, the really impressive people – I don't know.

2:08:26 I haven't met that many billionaires. But the ones I've met, like most of them are quite humble. And they're quite – They downplay how successful they are because they've already made it. And so I think if we all just put less pressure on ourselves to just connect, that would be easier. It does really track.

2:08:40 I was thinking about the people in my life that have aura. And they're not the people that are the most successful, the most accomplished. They are the ones that you would most like to spend time with. Yeah, they're easy. For whatever reason, yeah. Yeah, they're easy. And by the way, it's back and forth.

2:08:53 Like you can be introverted or extroverted. People, I think, think that master conversationals are extroverted. Actually, that's not usually the case. Sometimes extroverts fall into their own traps with conversational narcissism. Ambiverts, introverts do really well. But one of the other sort of definitions of aura is the person who, I don't know, they just seem to take up more space.

2:09:12 They seem to speak slower and be, you kind of like see them walk across a room. What is that? And like, how are they cultivating that, like that kind of aura? I think there's, this is my guess. I have also thought about this. Because when someone walks into a room and you're just like. Michelle Obama was like that.

2:09:29 Oh, I've never met her. I've never met her. But like I can only imagine. Right. Or becoming. Tony Robbins as well. He had Sirius. For sure. I think it's winner energy. Yeah. I think when certain people walk into a room and they have claimed their space, I think it's internal and external. I think physically, and this has been studied, they are physically taking up more space, whether they're short or tall, in that winners, they have more space between their ears and their shoulders.

2:09:57 They take up more space between their torso and their arms. They literally claim more space physically, right? So if I were to, like, do the entire interview, and I've seen people do interviews in your chair where they're taking up as little space as possible, you aren't as drawn to this. Right. And so I think that physical, there's a physical taking up and they're micro movements.

2:10:15 Like it's not walking in like with my arms up. It's micro. Right. It's like a slight down the shoulder. It's a slight up of the head. And when I do that, it affects everything about me. Like it affects my vocal tone. One thing that I think about a lot is maximum resonance point. Maximum resonance point is a part of your voice that is the lowest end of your natural range that signifies pride, that signifies calm.

2:10:41 So, for example, when I'm afraid or a little bit nervous, like I'll tend to go a little bit higher in my vocal voice. range. And if I were to do the entire presentation in this tone of voice or I was talking to this, it would be horrible, right? You would not want to listen to it. And that's because I'm tightening my vocal cords.

2:10:54 And when someone's very anxious, they tighten their shoulders, they tighten their neck, they tighten their chin. It's more of a loser feeling, right? And you're also speaking a little bit faster then. Oh, interesting. I didn't even notice it, but yes, I think I was, yeah, brushing, brushing, yeah. And I had less breath.

2:11:09 Like, I'm actually out of breath after doing that. So when we don't have breath, speaking too quickly, my vocal cords are tense. You can hear it, and they're taking up less even vocal space, right? Winners use this maximum resonance point. So we can actually try it if you want to. So at the very top of your – you're going to take in a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath.

2:11:27 So it sounds like this. Hello. Okay, I'm a little bit sick, hence why my voice might sound a bit different today, so I'm a little bit deeper than normal, but... Hello? Horrible. Yeah, that was embarrassing. Horrible. Yeah. Right, but I hear, I listen in on Zoom calls, and I hear people, that's their very first word.

2:11:47 Like they literally hold their breath and they say, good morning. Hello. Hello, everyone. Hi. Ooh. You are actually giving away your vocal competence because I'm so far away from my maximum resonance point. My maximum resonance point is when I speak on the out breath. So my vocal cords are relaxed. So now listen to the difference.

2:12:04 So here's the hi. Hello. Versus hello. Both me, but you're going to treat me totally differently. So now take a deep breath and say hello on the out breath. Hello. Right. Now, that sounds more like you because you usually use your maximum resonance point. Yeah. Right? You're very good at that. And I've noticed that in work culture, people who use their maximum resonance point, they are listened to more.

2:12:27 They are easy to talk to because we want to listen to them. They take up more aura more riz because we're like, ah. Yeah. Because we can hear their confidence. We can hear their relaxation. And so vocal cues are such an important aspect of charisma. You know, all of these questions are beautiful. But how you say your words is just as important as what you say.

2:12:48 If I were to ask, so, like, what's your personal passion project, I guess? I couldn't even do it. This stuff is so terrible. You know, like my lack of vocal care, you immediately hear and it tunes you out, right? So if I don't have good intention here, it does leak out. That's why earlier when you asked me, like, does intention matter?

2:13:12 I said, if you have intention to care and try, it's going to matter. But if you're not trying, people will hear it. And a lot of that is voice. And I think that very charismatic people, they're imbuing their voice with that winning, calm confidence. And we want to catch it. What about the rest of me?

2:13:29 So we've talked about some of the specific conversational questions at the three stages. We've talked about vocal tone. Is there any other part of being a great conversationalist? And I'm thinking now about, I guess we talked about hands and taking up space. But even eye contact, I think about this a lot.

2:13:43 It takes a lot of time. dare I say, confidence, for me to look you in the eyes like this, Vanessa, and ask you a question. That is because when we are making eye contact, chemically, we're producing oxytocin, which is great for connection. But also, you are not able to process as much. The reason why eye contact is quite complicated, and I think sometimes the clips on social media, I don't like clips very much because it takes off the nuance.

2:14:09 Eye contact, yes, universally, it's good when we have oxytocin. But also, I cannot do complex thinking when I'm doing this with you. Right? Like when I'm trying to remember something, I immediately look away. If you were to ask me a complex math problem, I look away. And so in conversation, we actually do not want 100% eye contact.

2:14:26 We don't even want 70% eye contact. 60-70% eye contact is more ideal in Western cultures. But if someone is deep thinking or they are social processing, you actually do want less eye contact because they're trying to access their memories. If I'm doing this, I'm purely focused on the connection. But we're in an interview.