OpenClaw Enterprise: Making AI Agents Safe for the Enterprise

0:07Aaron Good morning, good evening, wherever you are, and welcome back to the Enterprise AI Show. This is your host, Aaron, and on today's roundtable, Brian and Brandon look at the psychology behind tech's most confident leaders and why some of them keep making bold claims long after the evidence has turned against them.

0:28Aaron Starting with the new Elizabeth Holmes documentary, they ask whether the kind of unshakable conviction is something founders are born with or something that funding rounds and glowing headlines slowly build. They also take on the venture capital playbook for picking winners and share a simple framework that can help any organization spot the moment inspiration turns into fiction.

0:56Aaron And that is coming up right after this quick break.

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1:38Brian Connect with Nord Security to learn more about NordLayer AI Scout. Visit nordlayer.com/ai-scout/enterpriseai and get started today And we're back. Brandon, good to be with you again, man. It's it's been a little while since we spoke. How you been?

2:00Brandon Fantastic. Ready to maybe talk about a little something, s- something different this week, Brian

2:04Brian Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna go, this is gonna, it's gonna be in the technology realm, but it's a little different. So w- where this got started was couple weeks ago you were on this show. I was supposed to be on your show. Your show famously has a a recommendation at the end, one of my favorite parts.

2:17Brian And I recommended the the movie about I always call it The Blood Lady the Elizabeth Holmes story. There's a new documentary out about Elizabeth Holmes. I think it's called I Can See

2:26Brandon can see everything co- that, it came out on October 16th, so probably in theaters now. I don't know when it would come to streaming, but sometime soon I'm sure

2:35Brian That's right. So what we wanted-- what we got to talking about was just, first and foremost, go take a look at the trailer. If you wanna stop the podcast right now and go watch the trailer for two minutes and then come back and be like, "Oh, okay, I see why these guys are so fascinated by it." She is… I don't wanna say she comes across as a psychopath because she doesn't-- I don't think she actually kills anybody.

2:54Brian I'm not aware that she killed anybody. I'm pretty sure she didn't kill anybody. But, in the same vein as other psychopaths in movies, you watch her and you're like, "Okay, there's something wrong." And the, the context of why we wanted to talk about this was the-- her level of confidence in stuff that, that the rest of the world sort of now sees as complete lies is just fascinating.

3:14Brian And where we jumped off of this is we said it would be a really interesting study by somebody, some psychology department at some u-university with a bunch of PhDs, to look at a number of people that are incredibly well-known, it could be Elon Musk, it could be, Sam Altman, it could be, startup founders or whatever, that, that exhibit unbelievable levels of confidence that the rest of the world sort of looks at and goes, "That is just nothing but a fire hose of lies," or at least myth truths.

3:44Brian And wondering, do they realize it, that they're lies, or are they just, have they just had to mentally convince themselves so much that what they're telling will eventually be true? You just have to get through failure after failure. So that was the starting point we had for this. Brandon give, g- you know, run through your sort of premise of why this was interesting to you.

4:04Brandon I always just come back to it's like, is it a psychological profile? Is it something people are born with? Or is it something that people come to over time? And I think Elizabeth Holmes is a good example. We now look back on most everything she was saying, and it was, it's pretty easily, easy to see, and obviously, she's been convicted of crimes here, that it was all basically lies, right?

4:26Brandon But the conviction, especially if you watch the documentary. I haven't seen this one yet. Hopefully I'll see it soon. But the ones that… I think there was one on Hulu, and there've been a couple of those, and a lot of the interviews with her, especially when it's her, and it's like she is looking you dead in the eye, right?

4:41Brandon And telling you something is 100… that we now know to be 100% false. But I always think it's interesting because even for I'm just gonna quote, quote unquote quote, unquote, call it a normal person the act of lying usually requires some mental process. It's hard to lie for a long period of time. I think even if you wanna do it, even if you believe you're justified, it can be hard.

5:03Brandon Like in, the classic example is everybody knows somebody that just can't keep a secret. They just cannot do it. It's like the act of keeping a simple like the birthday party secret. They just you can just look at them the right way and they just, they crack. They're like, "I have to tell you, the birthday party's tomorrow at nine o'clock," or whatever, right?

5:17Brandon And it's like that's… And so you kinda take that kind of person and you put it against Elizabeth Holmes. The other one I think of was a little bit like SBF, right? Where, he, had this incredible success going, right? But for the most part was just kinda lying his way through it, right? It was I'm doing this, I'm doing this." And behind the scenes, I guess in retrospect, he was making some good investments, but he was just lying about where the money, like what money he was using, right?

5:41Brandon So it's like, you, it's like you can't be right in one area. One right doesn't, if you will. And so I guess the question is always… And I feel like if you're listening to this podcast, and the reason I guess I am interested in it is I feel like we see this at levels of tech all the time, right? There's and maybe in your life you've been close enough, all of us listening you probably know somebody who's gotten very successful in tech.

6:03Brandon Like you've… Just somebody in your, I don't know, neighborhood, right? And the question I always think about is like Over time, do these people just start to is it just the act of being successful that, if you will, starts to feed an ego that makes you almost start to believe everything you say, even in the face of obvious evidence?

6:24Brandon I know Elon Musk is a very polarizing figure, but like he's clearly-- I think I feel okay saying this, that it's not too, like crazy, like I think it's clear that he said some stuff that's not true, right? I think it's clear that we can look at that. I don't think that's we're breaking any news, even if you're an Elon Musk fan.

6:40Brandon And it's just like, how do people get to this point, right? And and then of course, is it actually the case that it does happen more in technology than, say, like in education or in healthcare or in whatever other industries that we happen to think think about. So I don't know. So what do you think? Is it like a nature?

6:56Brandon Is it a nurture problem? What's going on here?

6:59Brian Yeah I think it would be fascinating 'cause I, I think if I think about the sort of I don't-- It's not even the hierarchy, just like the evolution of it. And I think you and I talk about this is this something that's inherently in certain people, but maybe it's not in certain people, right? So it's the sort of it's nature.

7:15Brian Or is it something that because you're exposed to certain things, you're exposed to being around certain scenarios, is it nurture? Had-- Did it-- did you build this skill? And I think about it, like I, I watched the one, like one of the first Elizabeth Holmes movies. I forget which one it was, but it was the famous one.

7:31Brian And it does start off with hey, this was a very smart person. She got accepted into Stanford, and people can have their opinions about hey, is book smart, different than, than sort of street smart. But she was an intelligent person. She got past some number of other intelligent people around Stanford who were like, "Hey, that, that idea that you're kicking around, like it's interesting enough." She got it past a number of very intelligent people who worked in, that worked in the military and worked in other aspects of healthcare, who again, you know, on the intelligence spectrum, are considered relatively smart people.

8:01Brian So there was a part of this that was like, oh, that is a distinct problem that the world has today, or it's a distinct challenge that the world has today. And if you're willing to take on that challenge good for you. And if you somehow see a path through stuff, like good for you. And we've always rewarded people who, see the world a little bit differently, are able to quote unquote, "see around the corners." So there was a part of her story where you're like, okay, this is somebody who, is willing to see the, a big picture of things, is willing to try a new way of solving stuff.

8:33Brian And then you immediately-- they kinda contrasted that with, people who had worked in this segment of the world, and they were like, "Yeah, I know she spoke very eloquently about it and very confidently about it, but, like the math doesn't math or the science of this… like you're defying th- the laws of gravity, or you're just, defying the basics of physics."

8:51Brian And they were like, "This was crazy," and the fact that people, let this continue to go on. I think what's really interesting to me, and I've been around a bunch of startups. I know Aaron's been around a bunch of startups. You've, talked to different people. I think from the like, could you learn this perspective?

9:05Brian I think there's, I think there's stages of this, and I've seen this with different startup people. So there's the stage where you go, "Hey I see a problem somewhere in life, and I think I could build a better mousetrap." And that's a lot of the, "Hey, I quit my job. I'm gonna go try and build this thing."

9:19Brian And, that's the stuff where it's like you're super passionate about it. You know that the old way of doing things, could work, but it's not the way you have some vision for it. And then at some point you go and you ask somebody for money. And I think there's that first stage, which is oh, somebody else believes in the thing that I see.

9:36Brian Or, and they may not see it completely But somehow they believe in that, and that gives you a level of "Okay, I'm not wrong." Like I, y- I think that's the sort of the first stage is like somebody actually gives you a set of funding money to go try and make the idea bigger, but they believe in you, so they're your first champion.

9:52Brian And then I think the second level of "I'm indestructible," or, "I'm smarter than everybody else," or whatever it is the, that first big article that's written about you that "Hey, so and so is gonna change the world." And I think once that, at least from what I've seen from a number of start, founders is like once those two first couple stages happen to you, or maybe it's that second round of funding, there's something about that becomes like, I have to defend this worldview that I've created to the end, because otherwise it's not just that I failed to create this thing or we didn't solve the problem or we lost the game.

10:26Brian It's like my, my persona of the world, my, my view of the world, my existence of the world doesn't exist anymore, and that lying or that again, lying is, has a certain kind… That having to manipulate the world that your view is right becomes, becomes your DNA. It becomes the same thing that like we think of as truth.

10:47Brian And I think once you've lived to that point, and then now obviously if you get to a Elon Musk level where you've done it at multiple times I don't think they at that point know how to break that cycle. Because… And I think people don't understand this, is like if that, that perception breaks, it's not that you're wrong, it's like you don't exist because you exist as the person who created this gap, this glue between some problem space that didn't exist before.

11:13Brian And I think that leads you to… I don't know I more I think about it like I, I believe in the idea that like you, you acquire this skill. It's not maybe built into you. But, I might be wrong. Again, this is where it'd be great to see psychiatrists or a psychologist, look at little four-year-old kids that lie in, in elementary school versus the person who does it as a startup founder, 'cause it's the sa- it's

11:31Brandon start in life? Yeah,

11:33Brian yeah, where does…

11:34Brandon like the kid that's hustling for the free s- the extra snacks at, on the preschool is actually gonna be

11:40Brian everybody, yeah, 'cause everybody knows the little kid who's like he's not hustling somebody out of billions of dollars. But that, that kid is a liar. He's like a serial

11:46Brandon got a lot of Halloween candy. What's the story there?

11:49Brian That's right. That's

11:50Brandon But I do know what you're saying there. I wanna even take it maybe a little further. I, I would almost call… There must be somebody that's already written this, but let's call it the contrarian effect. It's like there may be nothing more powerful in society to be a contrarian and then to be proven correct, right?

12:04Brandon 'Cause I think that is where these things start, right? If y- and of course given the, the population of the world there's just gonna be a certain amount of people that will have crazy beliefs that are just never right. They're just… they're not contrarians, they're just wrong, right? And there's going to be some people that do hit on it.

12:21Brandon They're like, "Yeah I see the world in a slightly different way, and the time of the world is such that this belief, I'm gonna prove it's right, and everyone's gon- u-ultimately gonna look at me." Because I think there's… It's almost part of the hero's narrative. I think we all wanna be that person and be like, "I saw the thing. I saw this.

12:39Brandon No one believed in me." It's like sports that we like to talk about, right? "No one believed in us 'cause we were the team that no one believed in us," even though most of the time the people do believe in the team, right? But but they believe it. They believe that they have-- that no one believed in them, and they went out and they did something that no one could've done, and then from that starts to draw the confidence.

12:57Brandon And I think when you are, and anyone that's ever s- I don't even think you have to be a tech founder. I think if anyone has ever just tried to start a club in a high school. Just the simplest stuff. It's like at the beginning, there literally is nothing but you, right? And it is a powerful thing. Even if you're just creating something really small, right?

13:14Brandon Like w-writing a school play. You're like, "I wanna write a school play that's gonna be a production." And it's like at the beginning, no one really… They're like, "I don't know. Can you really do that?" But eventually you do it, and if you do that, it does provide you a level of confidence that I think is very powerful.

13:30Brandon Maybe it's, maybe that's almost like their narcotic going forward. It's like you start to believe that. And then I think what also happens is, in our world especially, venture capitalists, right? If you really distill it down, they really have no idea which ideas are gonna succeed. Because if they did, they would just fund those ideas, and they would all have 85% hit rates.

13:51Brandon But we all know their hit rate is 10% or 20%, right? So they have to then justify we can't just say that these people are, just happen to be the people that we gave capital to and we just randomly… They kinda randomly won some type of I don't know, lottery. They got that job. And of course, when they allocate the capital, it's like another lottery, and some of them are gonna be, like, super successful.

14:11Brandon No one likes that. If you say that out loud at venture capitalists, they'd be pissed. They'd be like no." They're…

14:16Brian just basically, yeah, if you're just saying, "Hey, you're no different than a gambler," they'd be

14:19Brandon And but I think what they then do is convince themselves to say I-- Like they would… Something along the lines of "Listen, I can go find the great contrarians. I know how to identify those people. And even if those people, maybe their first idea is not so good, maybe their first idea is, is a little crazy one, but like I know that this person is the type of person that will be the contrarian that will succeed, and I'm gonna go recruit them."

14:42Brandon So what does that lead to? It leads to a group of people finding these group of contrarians and telling them like, "You're special, Brian. You've got the idea." "I lo- listen, all I do is interview people and I've chosen you and I'm gonna give you the $50 million valuation and you're that person." And so like that must feed the ego of the found-- so you can kinda see it like all of this happening all the time.

15:04Brandon It almost becomes institutionalized, right? Inside. And that's why… And then maybe that starts to what lead to the crazy behavior

15:11Brian A-a-and this is where, and again you and I are talking about this. They're very-- we very well could have solved this entire show by being like, "Hey, let's do a couple Google searches to see if there's, any, any really well-known research on this," but we didn't. But yeah, it would be… I think there'd be interesting research on the, the, the person who is the cen- the center of this story, right?

15:29Brian The, the Elizabeth Holmes in this example. 'Cause it's like, not only are there lots of examples of these sorts of people, but as a society, we can't totally decide whether we love this sort of person or we hate this sort of person because we do make movies about them. We make movies about the Elizabeth Holmes and show her rise and downfall, and at the same time we make movies like "The Big Short" about, the folks who, in, in, in this context are the, the, the financial crash versions of the Ed Zitron, who are like, "I think I saw a flaw in the system, and I bet against it, and, I was the contrarian, and I could have lost huge, but I did win," and we're gonna center it around those people being,

16:03Brian smarter than everybody else, right? So it's as a society, we haven't figured out do we pick them as winners or losers or whatever we do with it? So I think that would be a fascinating study. But I-- Yeah, you're right. I think the other fascinating study would be on the VC side of things, what i- what does their profiling thing look like?

16:20Brian Because, like you said, if you're just simply picking technology and your win rate is, one in 10, okay. That's no different than basically… it's better than playing the lottery, but it's not much better than just gambling blackjack or anything else. But it's like, have you guys figured out some way of evaluating these people?

16:38Brian Because maybe there is a correlation, for example, between the, the true contrarians and being like, was there something earlier in your life, some hardship, some crisis that made you so determined to be like, "I'm gonna stick it to the man. I have a, I have a chip on my shoulder," right? We talk about this sort of chip on my shoulder, and sometimes you just, you want that person on your team because you're like, "That person doesn't give up."

17:00Brian And yeah, I think that would be an-another sort of interesting… 'Cause you do hear sometimes VCs be like, "Yes," especially if you're an early-stage investor, you're really betting on the founder more than anything, so much more than the idea because you're like, "I need to know if they have the fortitude to get through all of the, David and Goliath, odds that they're playing against."

17:19Brian But yeah, I think that would be it would be a fascinating thing to keep digging into.

17:23Brandon A couple things. Like one I have a book I've… I apologize to Software Defined Talk listeners 'cause I s- I had to stop recommending this book 'cause people got tired of me t-talking about it. But like there is a book called The Halo Effect that you can go read that I think is the only business book anyone needs to read.

17:35Brandon And I'll just give you the short example is it's just correlation versus causation. And it just basically distills down, it's like most of these successes require a lot of luck around timing, right? And that book systematically goes through and says And it picks out a lot of companies you would know about, like everyone Cis- one, one being close to you.

17:53Brandon Cisco in the '90s was like the greatest company ever, and then kinda goes through and systematically explains like then what happened?" And he does this through a bunch of these different books. So you can read it and it, I think it outlines it perfectly, right? And then but and I've… And this book's been around for I don't know, 20-plus years, maybe longer.

18:08Brandon But no one ever really wants to… I like to whip this, I just like to have this book to mention it when people start telling me about like the next latest book that has wr- written, like whatever, the Jensen Huang biography or whatever. And I'll be like have you read this other one?" So I think it's a good way just to answer it.

18:21Brandon But for the most part, no one really likes, no one ever wants to like really dive into that. They're like, "You don't get it." "Did you not read Shoe Dog by Phil Knight? And did you not know that he…" And I, the number of these, I've read a lot of these other books. I don't know why. It's just a waste of time, you can too.

18:36Brandon And it's just one of these things that like, I don't know. No, like the information is there. I've even like in a popular nonfiction sense, been exposed to it. But for the most part, people want to ignore it. They will not accept it. They will just keep telling you that you're wrong. And so I don't even really mention it as much anymore.

18:51Brandon So th- that's one thought about why does it kinda continue to perpetuate? And then I guess we kinda just get into I don't know, it's maybe it's just human nature is we just like those stories more than we like, the, the boring clinical explanation that, is, was just lucky, right? And I think it does kinda come back to, And again, like I think what you were saying before is true, and there probably is.

19:15Brandon Like I have seen venture capitalists talk about they do like to invest in people that have like For lack of a better phrase, have had some type of childhood trauma, right? Because they feel like it drives a certain level of persistence that someone that came up through let's just say a fairly normal childhood doesn't have.

19:33Brandon And like examples would be like, Jeff Bezos was like… He was adopted, right? So that's like certain, I think he went on to have-- I think his upbringing was good, but that's obviously going to affect you, right? I don't think, in some way, right? So they w- they will often, like Steve Jobs, like kinda, kinda the same thing.

19:48Brandon There's like though they will kind-- And again, like we should be real careful here, right? Like they'll kinda pick out these archetypes and be like, "You need…" "These are the kinds of people that succeed." I would always like to say listen, I think what you're really trying to select for is just someone that will have persistence in the face of challenges," right?

20:07Brandon And I certainly hope, and I know you're a, as fathers, as parents, like I would think we all would hope that we can instill some of these values in our children without having to subject them to significant childhood trauma. And I think that would be the answer to these people. And of course the, the answer I always like to give back to the venture capitalists is like, 'cause like I don't know how many times I've heard this story.

20:27Brandon They'll be like, "The founder, this was like the last dollar he or she had, and if this didn't work, they had… That was it. They had nothing." It's like no, most of the people came from like a good family, and they would've had somewhere to go. It's like one of these things. Like Travis Kalanick I think famously lived in his parents' basement for seven years while he struggled, right?

20:46Brandon And it's y- so like people forget that part of the story. It's like they were in a pretty good position. If you truly were, this was your last dollar and you couldn't eat, like it would be crazy to spend your last dollar doing something high risk. You should go buy food, right? So again I think we should just always think about it.

21:01Brandon Like you're looking for people that have persistence, but like you can go overboard with this archetype of which I think venture capitalists do. But of course they would tell me I'm all wrong.

21:08Brian And I think the other thing that you, you highlight and where I think we've we started with this thing of what sometimes causes these, these charismatic leaders to be, not only charismatic, but also to be like tremendous liars, or at least, the, the world perceives them as, as liars, and maybe they don't perceive it themselves.

21:24Brian I do think there is a, a certain thing in society where people are, they're looking for somebody to tell them, wh- where to go in the future, what to do. And, people like to say I, I like to control my own life," and all these sort of things. But you look at, whether you look at like mass religions or you look at just, other things in life, like there, there are…

21:41Brian Most people are like, "I would like for you to tell me the direction to go in. I can figure out the nuances, what to eat, what to wear." But where should we go? Is somebody gonna create a scenario that, that makes me feel safe? Hits on all the, five hierarchies of Maslow's hierarchy sort of things. And I, and I think there are people that recognize that like there is a need for that and they can, they can play on the emotions, which is like you, you didn't ask for somebody to lie to you, but you asked for somebody to y- give you a direction that, that you feel like is gonna make you safe.

22:09Brian And then they realize oh, I also… That gives me a lot of leeway to create the reality that I wanna create around that thing. And I think, because tech works in such a big scale in terms of what we can do and the marginal cost of the next thing that you bring out can be pretty cheap, I think it does lend itself maybe more so than other industries to have that person that crosses the line between being like, yes, you're just trying to set a vision for something, and that vision you sent, you set is, completely full of shit for lack of a better, whether it's a lie or it's, completely, manipulating or whatever it might be, plus, there's a lot of, there's a lot of money in this industry and money in any industry

22:43Brian creates opportunity for con men and charades and all sorts of stuff like that.

22:49Brandon Yeah. I think, as we kinda wrap up here, I always, I kinda come back to this is for a forthcoming business book I will never write. But I've always said you really have three types of people at every company, right? And you can put yourself, and I would encourage everyone, you can probably put yourself in one of these categories going forward.

23:04Brandon You have the operator, right? It's usually the CEO or s- the leader, founder of the company. You have a group of pragmatists, and you have a group of believers. Those are the three types of people in every company. And it's to your point, like we may all, and I'm probably on this call or on this podcast today we've said portrayed the operators a little bit more evil than we should.

23:22Brandon It's like, but ultimately we absolutely need someone to stand up and be like, "I wanna go solve this problem. I believe we can solve this problem." And they are motivating. If you don't have that in a company, you don't have anything. If you just have a bunch of people that are around like, "I think it's mostly luck.

23:38Brandon I don't think it really matters what we're gonna do," like you just have… Like nothing actually happens. So it's like we need that person, right? But that person is then gonna have to surround themselves with two other type of peoples. One, the people that absolutely believe in every word that person is saying, right?

23:54Brandon Because those are the people that are gonna show up every day and do exactly what they want done and not question one thing, right? And that's just typically we've all,

24:04Brian be, and they have to be the buffer when people go like, "This doesn't make sense," and you go, "You just have to believe us. We don't know the answers, but we're going the right

24:10Brandon right? And you've absolutely gotta have that kind of people, right? And then you have got to have that group of people with a group of pragmatists who are like, "Okay, I'm looking at what the operator's saying. I think he or she maybe has a good idea. At the same time, I'm not gonna take everything they say at face value.

24:26Brandon I'm going to critically think about whatever they want." They're like, "We're going to Mars." You can be like, "I understand that's a great goal, but I have many questions. Like, how are we gonna live? H- how are we gonna grow food?" You've got to have people in the organization asking these questions so that the believers can start working on some of these problems.

24:43Brandon I know you believe we're going to Mars, but we gotta solve this problem, or pick any big thing. 'Cause if you don't have those people, you just have a bunch of people basically convincing themselves that everything's gonna work out when it won't. So you've gotta have some of these pragmatists. And I always find in myself, it's like probably for everyone listening to this show, many of us, you've probably been all three.

25:02Brandon You've been at different companies and d- you've been everything in every place. And so that's why I always think when you're-- when I'm sitting in these companies or I'm working on anything, it's which person am I, and what role am I playing, and what we-- what blind spots do I personally have? And I think, for most of us, like I think even if you operate a small business you can at least reflect on yourself and be like, "Am I inspiring people or am I outright lying?"

25:24Brandon And I think this is maybe like this is where the topic kind of ends is like there's clearly people on the operator side that just go too far, right? They think they're inspiring, but they're really absolutely lying, and those are the places where I think as a pragmatist you should be like, "It's time to leave," right?

25:40Brandon And as a believer, this is your moment to maybe rethink that. Never be like too carried away. So I don't know. That's how I think of it. I don't know if we answered any of these questions. We probably just made it more confusing, but I do think it's a fascinating topic

25:52Brian No, I do too. I do too. And I think your point of, this isn't always just the leaders, the sort of it, it, the top person is the one who has to, create these stories and whether they're 100% true or partially true. I think you're right. There's people at every level of an organization who are like I've been asked to do this thing." And, may- maybe it is a task that is just cut and dry, it's black and white, you're either gonna do it or you're not, or there's… But there are plenty of things in between.

26:16Brian And and yeah it's, it is interesting, like you said, to think about that you probably have been in every one of those roles at some point, and maybe even in the same job you had to be the, the manipulator versus the, the pragmatist or whatever. But yeah, no, it's, it's-- I think it's fascinating stuff.

26:30Brian I think it's, I don't know if it's more prevalent in our industry. I think we live in this industry, so we feel like it's fairly prevalent. But yeah, love to

26:37Brandon we should invite the audience to either send us recommendations, like what should we be reading? Or maybe more importantly who's someone that should come on the show and ex- and that's done all the research and explain it all to us? If you have that person what is it, show@theenterpriseaishow. Yeah, email us and we'll we read all the emails, and then maybe we can get them

26:56Brian one of us. Exactly. And they might come on the show and be like, "You two fools, you two idiots don't have any

27:01Brandon Even better. I, you know what? Fantastic. We're contrarians that were wrong. Fantastic. I like it

27:06Brian That's right. All right. Good stuff, man. I appreciate the the, the topic idea. I think we we touched on it a little bit. I think we're, yeah, we're both fascinated by it. So folks, if you've got feedback, we'd love to hear it. And with that, we're gonna wrap it up, and we'll talk to you next week. Thanks for listening.

27:21Brian Check us out at theenterpriseaishow.com for past shows, newsletters, and all things enterprise AI