Elle Griffin on researching the ideal society, from utopian books to real-world examples

While dystopian fiction dominates our screens and bookshelves, Elle Griffin is busy researching how things might actually go right. She wanted to write a utopian novel and realized she needed a better understanding of what an ideal society could look like.
In our conversation, we discuss how her favorite utopian literature influenced her views on a well-designed society. But we also explore practical ideas on how we could improve our systems:
• Tax autonomy: Why giving states and cities the power to collect their own taxes would allow them to fund the specific services their citizens actually want.
• A la carte federations: A model where cities and states choose to join specific agreements, like a "fishing EU" or a "healthcare EU," instead of being forced into one large, centralized government that manages every aspect of life.
• The Mondragon model: What we can learn from a massive network of worker-owned cooperatives in Spain that provides its own unemployment insurance and university.
• Who should control AI: Why giving voting authority to the employees who write the code (rather than investors or nonprofit boards) might be the best way to prevent unethical shortcuts.
• Singapore’s land model: How the government acts as a landlord to fund public services, allowing for lower income taxes while still providing universal social support.
• Fixing the Internet: How to use personal data and AI to make us wiser, rather than letting algorithms push us toward fast fashion and political radicalization.

Chapters:
• Cold open (00:00:00)
• Introducing Elle Griffin (00:01:27)
• How writing a novel turned into a research project (00:02:27)
• Elle’s current work: From print pamphlets to "We Should Own the Economy" (00:04:21)
• The setup of Elle’s upcoming utopian novel (00:05:06)
• From gothic literature to utopian literature (00:06:30)
• Three classic utopian novels and their recurring lessons (00:15:42)
• Building a "future Asia" through mythology and technology (00:22:02)
• What if US States had the same autonomy as EU countries? (00:23:49)
• "A la carte" federalism: moving toward a modular government (00:28:11)
• The Mondragon model: a blueprint for worker-owned economies (00:32:54)
• Why the smallest government is the best government (00:36:18)
• The global monoculture and the rise of micro-cultures (00:44:29)
• Who should control AI? The case for employee-led governance (00:53:02)
• Fixing the Internet and using AI to make us wise, not just efficient (01:01:06)
• Why Victor Hugo’s "Les Misérables" is the ultimate masterpiece (01:06:14)
• An existential hope vision for the future (01:08:09)

On the Existential Hope Podcast hosts Allison Duettmann (foresight.org/our-team/allison-duettmann-presi…) and Beatrice Erkers (existentialhope.com/team/beatrice-erkers) from the Foresight Institute (foresight.org) invite scientists, founders, and philosophers for in-depth conversations on positive, high-tech futures.

Full transcript, listed resources, and more: existentialhope.com/podcasts

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