The Joy of Not Being Dead (with Ryan Holiday on The Daily Stoic)

0:15 Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, I hope the summer is treating you well and that you're taking some time off to rest and recover. I've been on a bit of a vaca myself, but the team and I will soon be back at work preparing the next season of this show. We'll be sending you back to school Happiness Lab style as I review some of the must read psychology books of the year. So stay tuned for lots of well being wisdom coming your way this September. But I won't be abandoning you until then. Over the next few weeks, I'll be sharing some episodes from other podcasts, and the common thread is that I appear as a guest in all of them. First on the list, The Daily Stoic, Brian Holiday's hit show is all about what the ancient

0:59 Stoic philosophers can teach us about living better today. I was invited on the show to talk about death, but don't let that topic scare you, because, as you'll hear, my conversation with was actually kind of fun. If you like what you hear, you should check out The Daily Stowing wherever you get your podcasts.

1:18 Hey, it's Ryan Welcome. To another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I was swimming in Barton Springs yesterday and I'm swimming I kind of see this movement. It's like a weird thing with Barton Springs where you know there's like huge fish in there, and you know there's turtles. You don't see them as much, not as much as like Balmore or whatever. But I see this sort of soft shelled turtle just start to head up to the surface and then just like takes off like a rocket, just and it it almost hits me. It was dodging turtles, surfacing turtles from the depths of Barton Springs, and I just I was like, ah, man, life is absurd and life is good even just like the light in the pool was amazing where you could actually see everything because

2:02 it's brighter in the mornings. I don't know, it's just a great day. And so I'm excited to tell you about today's episode. Actually this goes back a couple months now. My research assistant Billy Oppenheimer, who you've heard me talk about before. Many of you get his Sunday newsletter, which I highly recommend. You can find that at Billy Oppenheimer dot com. He is working on a book, which I'm very excited about. I'm sure he'll be on the podcast when that eventually comes out, though he has not sent me a copy of it. And I'm saying this here on the episode to jostle him a little bit so he'll finish it up and get it into the publisher.

2:39 No.

2:39 But anyways, Billy sent me a clip. He's like, hey, did you see this? And it was a clip of the Human Lab podcast where this woman, doctor Lori Santos, is talking about Memento mori. And I was like, oh wow, that's so cool, and let me actually play the clip, professt.

2:55 It's useful to remember, like, you know, this is limited, right, this is temporary. I should enjoy this now while it's happening. The most extreme version of this, of course, is with our own lives, right, contemplating our mortality. There's this idea of to Maury, which is a common phrase, actually have my ring has Memento mori on it, which is morbid. Right, I'm going to die, I'm not going to be here.

3:16 But when you recognize that, you know the old school folks thought, and I think it's true, Like you realize, like I can't take any of this stuff for granted. I have to pay attention now. This is not, you know, the kind of thing that's going to last forever.

3:29 And then so we reached out and we found out that doctor Santos would be in Austin for south By Southwest and she came to the studio. I was like, Hey, what are you in town for south By? This is when she shows up and she's like, oh, yeah, I'm here at south By to interview Michelle Obama. And I was like, what that. Okay, that's a pretty good reason to come to town. Not what I would have expected to bring someone to Central Texas, but here we are, and it does make sense. Doctor Santos is an expert on happiness. Her Yale course, The Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students how the science of psychology can make you happier and live a more fulfilling life. They've told me the most popular class in Yale history, and Yale has

4:16 a pretty decent history. I mean, it is three hundred years old. So to have the most popular class at one of the most prestigious universities in the world is a pretty incredible accomplishment. And you know it makes me think like I was introduced to the Stoics while I was in a class in college called Aristotle and the Meaning of Life. So you know, I just love that this stuff is so popular, and I love that she is bringing the Stoics into her courses. She is, as you will see in this episode, very well versed in the Stoics. We share a lot of ideas and strategies that we both try to apply in our personal life.

4:54 And yeah, I just I really like this interview. It was really exciting. Her work is, of course, incredibly popular. You've seen it all over the world. She has an online version of the class called The Science of well Being on Cours Sera, which has had more than four million students go through it. Her podcast, The Happiness Lab, where she interviews people like Michelle Obama, is one of the most popular podcasts anywhere they are a podcasts. So it's all very impressive. You can check out her work at doctor Lorisantos dot com. You can follow her on Instagram.

5:23 I will link to that. You can follow her on Twitter. She has a YouTube channel and a TikTok channel. I will link to all of this. Anyways, I was just thinking this is a good life. Man Dodge and Turtles in Barton Springs. Dropped my kid off from school, went swimming, then I picked him up with went on a field trip.

5:37 I just I get to do this. This is what my life is. It's always perfect. There was traffic, there's this, you know, but like, by and large, this is what the good life is. Stressful couple weeks for me, but I don't know, more good than bad. And that's I think basically what we're going to talk about in today's episode, which I'm excited to bring to you. Now.

6:00 This is my favorite thing in the live studio podcast is like, tell me your table story.

6:03 Well, okrarect, this is Joan Didon's table. Oh my god, that's a really good name.

6:09 All right. You in.

6:11 People are like it's kind of a weird table, but it's like I bought it this auction and these are these this was like a dining room table Joan Didion's house. Yeah, and that cool.

6:19 That's super cool.

6:20 Yeah. Normally I'm not like a coaster person. I'm like no stress. I'm like no, no, yeah. And then sometimes I'll go like, oh, you can just put that down there, and then they'll think it's like a suggestion get it table. I think at some point I'll probably because it's I mean at the table had history before, but now all these people have sat at it. Yeah yeah yeah, Like I thought it was a charity thing and so I was like, oh, but maybe I could just we donate it like ten years from now all these other people have sat at the table and then all.

6:53 I mean, Joan would be happy you bring all.

6:55 Maybe she seemed pretty judgmental.

6:58 Maybe that's true. She'd probably just like anything.

7:00 So and like everything. She's like this tiny lady, you know, so like sometimes like like we have like an athlete coming in soon, and I'm like, I don't know, we might have to get a different chairs. This is me ye small person. Well thank you for coming.

7:18 Yeah, thanks so much. I've been a fan for a while. So really I was when I got this and I was like, yeah, yeah.

7:23 Well I thought you might have your memento Mori ring off.

7:26 I took it off to travel because I'm scared I'm going to lose it, so, which is dumb. I also have another second arrow, so it's an arrow. So that's my Buddhist one, my mentor more I want and a Buddhist one.

7:35 Well, tell me the story on both. Well, ye, memento more, remember you will die? Why is that something you want to wear on your person?

7:41 Because it's nice to remember that you're going to die, right, I mean no, seriously, I mean I think it like causes you to live better. And there's research showing this too, right, that fast forwarding to your death, this idea of death awareness, noticing that things might go away soon, you wind up like enjoying things more. Whether it's like a local thing like they do this with like college seniors who are about to graduate and just notice, hey, you're going to graduate really soon. They spend their time differently when you remind them. Really, but I think for bigger things for life too. This is like, I mean, this is what the Stoics were on top of, like before anybody did these social science studies about this stuff.

8:12 But yeah, isn't it interesting how much social science studies confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy that they were just making up two thousand years ago.

8:23 And even still, Like I have a colleague, Hetty Kober, who studies meditation and a lot of kind of you know, ancient practice from Buddhist and I was like, you need to go do stoicism. So she's doing a negative visualization. Oh, studies now to try to see if that also can Like she just studies like craving and these kinds of things.

8:38 Can it reduce craving? Can it can make me feel better? And so on? But I'm like, still new insights from them are coming in.

8:43 And so do you just kind of fiddle with the ring and idea?

8:46 Yeah. And the reason I don't take it to podcasts is I with whack it, you know out, Yeah, you notice it every once in a while and then you this is another one I got. She just came from Arthur Brooks, so I know you had in your show.

8:57 I think he was wearing a very similar Yeah.

8:59 So his work with the Dalai Lama. He hangs out with these monks.

9:02 Who did you go on that trip?

9:04 I did not. I had a wedding and I was like, can you move the wedding? But I met one of my who's there and because of the work, they gave me this and so it's, you know, blessed by a Dalai Lama, and it's meant to remind you that you're on the path to being a body sofa, And it is true that I'll be like like literally today driving over here, trying to get out of the main part of Austin City, and I looked at it. It was about to road rage and I was like, no, I want a path to being a body safah control over this.

9:27 And so yeah, so the reminders help.

9:29 Yeah, yeah, I don't know if people agree. People find momentum more a morbid, people find it disconcerting, depressing. There's a reason that people don't do it. They don't want to think about it.

9:42 Oh, it's disturbing. I mean, I think it's partly the disturbingness that makes it so powerful. Yes, right, It makes me a little want to like vomit in my mouth every time I think about it, But it also makes me want to put my phone away and notice the things around me and have a conversation with someone. So yeah, I think it works because it's really discombobulating and you.

10:01 Can get desensitized to it itself a little bit. And what I think is interesting which has never been desensitized for me, is the one that marks it talks about in meditations, which is cribbing from epictitis. He says, as you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself, they will not make it till the morning. Yes, so there's something about momental money for yourself. You just be like, yeah, of course I'm gonna die. I always knew this, hopefully.

10:22 But it's when if you have to meditate on losing someone or something so precious to you, you never become desensitized to that. It is always a very powerful, sobering, humbling and a little bit terrifying thought to run through your mind. And there's something about the human mind that doesn't want to consider it precisely because of all those things.

10:42 Yes, yes, yes, But what's amazing about the human mind is that you can just instantly switch your reference point with a little bit of imagination, right, And I think this was one of the stoic insights, like if you actually have a bad thing happened to you that changes your reference point, Like I actually lose my phone, like while in this trip, Oh my god, this is a pain in the ba I gotta get I never realized how much I appreciated my phone. But I get a new phone. It's like a phone, it's so useful. I can look at the map and so on. Yes, But what's amazing is we don't actually have to go through the actual terrible thing. We can just simulate it very briefly.

11:12 And this is I think Marcus Early is insight right, Like every morning you should wake up and think, I might you know, get shunned, I might lose my job, I might lose my legs, won't work and stuff. And I think that that's amazing that we have the power to do that. Then we don't actually have to face the real consequences, but we can psychologically reset our reference point.

11:29 It's such a good hack.

11:30 Well, what's interesting is we use our imagination in a way that's not helpful all the time totally. So we imagine a bunch of extremely unlikely, you know, fake things. We're ruminating on stuff that nobody's thinking about, and we're torturing ourselves with our imagination instead of using our imagination to prepare for things. Like oftentimes, if you act like that, if you just kind of have this vague imagining of a terrible thing, you feel unpleasant. But if you can get specifically, then you what would I do. Here's what my plan. Actually it has the exact opposite effect, So it's you sort of decide how you're going to use your imagination.

12:06 And this is a critique that I sometimes get from my students, So I shiok talk about these negative visualization psychology studies and my happiness class, and I'll always give you a whose days after class. And it's like, but wait, isn't rumination terrible? Isn't that like the worst symptom of you know, depressive episodes? And I'm like, Marcus Aurelius didn't say, like do that fourteen hours a day. He said like first ten minutes right before the world all you know, like do that quickly and then recognize that that's not true, appreciate and move on. And I think that's where we get stuck, right, is that we have to know the dosage of some of these practices, and that can get a little tricky, including memento may right, a terrible health

12:40 anxious paranoia that you're going to die is not awesome.

12:43 Right, Hypochondria is not the supposed to be the result.

12:47 Correct. I think the Stoics were good about giving us that sort of dosage, but in practice, that's that's where the rubber.

12:53 Meus software SINA is like the right amount, yes, right, like no the ability to discern this is also it's interesting that the line between like where is sort of temperance, where's wisdom? But they're the same, that they're related. It's like, what is the golden mean of this exercise, this truth, this idea? Because when you hear Seneca, on the one hand, say, you know, we suffer more in imagination than in reality, and then he also says he suffers before it is necessary, suffers more than is necessary. He says, like the unexpected blowlands heaviest. And then he's also saying like, don't torture yourself with every possible thing that could happen. People feel like that's a contradiction, and I think oftentimes that is

13:34 a critique of the Stoics, that they contradict each other when they're actually saying is not too much over here and not too little over here, get the right amount. Even on something like hey, am I prepared for things to not go my way? Is very different than ruminating on how they're never going to go your.

13:50 Way exactly exactly. And I think, you know, if this is I love the Stoics, but I also like bringing in these other kinds of traditions to you, right like if you look to Aristotle, this was something that Aristotle was really worried about, the kind of right amount. Like virtue isn't one thing or the other. It's not kind of bravery or cowardice. It's this lovely sweet spot in the middle. And so yeah, so I think the right amount is something that we should be thinking about a lot.

14:11 Well, that's the problem with the word temperance is that temperance in America, not even in English, but the temperance movement became the abstinence movement exactly. I mean none not What is the right amount? What is a moderate, safe, reasonable amount? And that's a hard look, there's something there.

14:34 It's not at all. Some things you should definitely not do. There's probably not a moderate amount of heroin that you should be doing, yeah, but or a fentanyl or something. But there are other things that if you can do them in moderation, it's solely fine. And I think ruminating is probably one of those things, because there's a fine line between ruminating and being ignorant.

14:54 Yeah, And I think you know, one of the things I think the Stoics would say is that you're the main principle of like finding agency over your own mind, finding agency over your own emotions, finding agency of your own actions. Like they almost want you to be probably in that hard sweet spot of sorting it out for yourself.

15:09 That's a kind of virtue that the Stokes want you to cultivate.

15:11 Yeah, you want to be prepared for things to go wrong, but also not a cynical miserable, you know, because I don't believe in manifestation, but I do believe like, if you have a fundamentally negative worldview, the world will be negative to you. I don't think you're changing reality, but if you only look for the worst, you're going to find a lot of bad stuff.

15:34 Okay, but this is a spot where my students also get it confused, and I think it is really confusing psychologically, right, because on the one hand, we know thinking about the worst helps you a little bit, and all the ways we were just talking about. We also know that optimism helps you a little bit, but it also has these interesting downsides. Right in the manifesting work, there's lots of work why folks like Gabrielle oting in that if you fantasize about a positive future, a lot you take less action towards that positive future. Yeah, so she has these studies were like, you know, you fantasize about getting fit and going to the gym all the time. You think, oh my gosh, it's gonna be so great, I'm a

16:04 fit in my clothes and look right whatever. But then the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym. And this too comes from a weird feature of imagination, which is that if we've imagined a goal, we don't want that goal as much anymore. There's this lovely study with this guy Carrie mor Wedge who has people either imagining putting quarters into a vending machine over and over again, really slowly or slowly eating m and ms one by one, and then at the end of the study people come out and there's a big va of eminems. What does he find. He finds the people that imagine the quarters eat less eminems because they kind of feel like, if you imagine eating all the eminems, you're kind of satisfied by them. You don't

16:42 need them anymore. And this is what happens with certain kinds of positive fantasies. We imagine that we already went to the gym and got all the benefits it's like, Wow, don't need to put action into that.

16:50 I think it's kind of like you took like obviously the engines were saying, like, you should do things for the right reasons, not for necessarily the external rewards. But if part of what is motivating us is the reward and you have stolen it, like you've taken it on credit, you've fantasized it into existence, you have decreased some of your motive to do that thing. Like I've always I try not to talk about like a book that I'm working on. I'd prefer to spend all the energy doing it, yes, because I find that that depletes the motivation to do the hard, uncomfortable day to day and nous of the thing.

17:23 It's easier to live in the fantasy world than the messy making it world.

17:27 Right or or you can use your imagination to recognize, Okay, if that's my goal, what's it really going to take? Right? This is kind of like you know when you go to the baths, like, know what's going to happen at the baths? Right? If you have this goal, know what it takes to get there. And I think that was another really rich I associate that with epictitis. But correct me if I'm getting the wrong stoic here. Yeah, where it's kind of like, you know, if you want that goal you want to be like the fit person, imagine the plan to get there. And it turns out from the research that that's a thing that works really well.

17:54 If you imagine, okay, I want to get fit, say well, then I have to go to the gym every day to put my sneakers out. I really have to commit to this. That helps you know what the plan is because you kind of rehearsed it. It's not as bad or not sure as much of a pain in the butt. But also sometimes you do that and you're liketually there's no way I'm going to get my act together to do that. And then you can have a more appropriate goal, right, You can kind of use your imagination to figure out which goals are appropriate.

18:18 Well, I think of we were talking about testing the stoic ideas like in the laboratory. Person who did that most recently is Stockdale. Stockdale gets a graduate degree in ancient philosophy at Stanford. The Navy sends him and then he gets thrown into a real Stanford prison experiment.

18:35 To be fair, most psychologists don't go as hardy.

18:38 And there he's basically testing a lot of these ideas. He's also really well steeped in the sort of literature as well. By what I think is fascinating is they asked him after, you know, who had the hardest time, and he said it was the optimists, because there was this sense that they would get out by they were always falling for the hey by Christmas or you know, news stories would trickle back to them, or they'd hear things in letters, you know, and arms, justice is coming, and then when that wouldn't happen, they were crushed. And what's interesting in his memoirs he wrote after the fact, but you can even see it in some of the letters you wrote at the time. He kept saying, like, it's going to be at least another two years, it's

19:15 going to be at least like he was, as it turned out, underestimating how long it would take. But he was not at all convinced that this would happen quickly. And so there's something about optimism that can set you up to be crushed by a world you don't control.

19:31 Because again, what our mind is doing is it's setting up these reference points, and if we set up a reference point like by Christmas, everything is going to be great and it's going to be perfect, and we don't get there, you know, we feel terrible, even if objectively we probably could have made it. I mean, we're talking about terrible. Vietnamese prison is probably you know, bad extreme case.

19:47 But the idea is if you set your reference point too high, then even getting the second best possible thing feels kind of crappy. Here's another one of my favorite psych reference point studies. So researchers analyze people's smiles on the Olympic metal stand right, and that's who's happiest, right, So you look at the gold medal, is he's that person you know, best in the world, really happy? What's going on with the silver metallist. Turns out they're not showing expressions of happiness. They're showing expressions of things like grief, contempt, deep sadness. And that's because, like, you know, their reference point was like I almost got gold, So they're objectively second best in the world, but feeling really crappy about it.

20:23 That kind of makes sense. But the reason I love the studies they also analyze the smiles of the bronze.

20:28 Medallist, right, happy to be there.

20:30 They're so happy to be there. In fact, in some cases their smiles are bigger than the gold medalist because like, oh my god, my alternative, my negative visualization is like I almost didn't get up here at all. And that study has always been really powerful to be.

20:42 And I love that because I think there's a Seinfeld bit about that that predates the syce yes intuitive just as a as a student of human nature, and that's the best studies confirm kind of what's we obviously know, or it confirms like the opposite of what we think we know. But that one so he nails, that's exactly what it is.

21:02 Jerry Seinfeld was such a great psychologist and so many, so many deferent debats.

21:05 Yeah, yeah, I think for me, the momentum morey thing is it's not that you are going to die tomorrow, but that you could, Yes Couldness puts a level of uncertainty and then it forces you to make some decisions. I think that's kind of how I think about it.

21:23 That's right, And I think those decisions ultimately are ones that make us a lot happier. Right. The decisions are usually to be a little bit more present to not fall for the like you know, low value you know don't mean hit in the current parlance, even though it's not really don't mean hit, but like like does the kind of low value quick like I'm looking at my phone rather than hang out with a kid right before he goes to bed, right, And those changes matter a lot.

21:45 Those changes matter a lot for our moment to moment happiness. But I think those changes matter a lot for really appreciating the stuff we have in life, which again, you know, is this so lovingly pointed out, like is not guaranteed at any point?

21:55 Yeah, the like, hey should we extend the vacation one day? Or hey should I blow off work and go spend an extra bit of time for this word? Should I take this phone call? It's the it could be the last time that you get that thing correct, and so you should pa sees it while it's here. That is, I think just a real practical way of momentum more helps you make better day to day decisions.

22:16 It also changes our time horizon, right like as a psychologists often worry about these cases of myopia right where you're not saving enough, you're not eating helpy enough, you're not protecting your future self. I from a happiness standpoint, worry a lot about the opposite, which is hyperopia, which is like we're constantly saying I'm doing something for my future self, right, but we both get our future self wrong.

22:36 And sometimes like the future isn't guaranteed, so you know, take the reward, take that fun thing now, you know you know how many times, like do people not end up spending their Frequent Flyer miles and they expire or you know, buy this nice bottle of wine that you and your partner are gonna have one day and then you finally find it and it's like corked or something. Right, I feel like we're constantly in danger of quirking our lives. Yes, even in these local domains. I mean, I've heard you use the example of your you know, kids going to bed and that you know stoic mantra helping you notice and be present. What would you be doing if you weren't being present? We'll probably be checking an email for.

23:07 Such like future you is it's not important at all?

23:10 Exactly? Yes, And so fighting our hyperopia and making sure you know, we're prioritizing things in the present so that we get the right future benefit I think is important.

23:20 I've never met someone who's not saving for retirement, not taking care of themselves because they have philosophically worked themselves into that position. Yes, they're not doing that because they're just not responsible.

23:31 Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.

23:33 I do think there's the trouble with some philosophy and some people people like they try to like overthink it and for these edge cases that aren't real or would affect such a minority of the It's like it's like people don't want to work out because they don't want to be too fit. Yeah, yeah, you're you're not going to get there. Don't worry about it, you know. And it's like, you know, if everyone actually put in this ancient philosophical practice, social security would go bankrupt. And it's like, no, okay, first off, it's automatically taken out of everyone's account that it's not a choice, that's why. But like, no, the people that are not doing it are are doing it for other irresponsible reasons, for an extreme philosophical principle.

24:12 Yeah, and I do feel like hyperopia is one of the you know, people who are a little philosophically informed are thinking about how to live a good life. They're often the ones that are pretty good at like discounting, right, like you know, withholding. But then if you do that too much, you know, again, none of us know what our moment is, and the momental worry is just a reminder of like could be tonight, what I want to do different if it was well?

24:33 How many of these people that are obsessed with sort of radical life extension have a life worth extending. Seneca talks about this story about this emperor, this criminal sort of begging to be spared, like don't put me to death, and he says, oh, you're really alive. That's what the emperor says to him. He's like, you have wasted your life.

24:50 You're a shitty person doing shitty things, and now you're begging to be spared to do what so you can go back to your life of crime. This is not a statement on the justice of the death penalty. The point is when I look at the life that these people are trying to extend, I'm like, what, you're living like a monk, but not in a philosophic yeah, you know.

25:10 Like getting you have random injections and you can't hang out with people because when you hang out with people, you're going to have drink or go out.

25:15 And have some food. You're gonna in the sun because you're worried about this, Like, what you're doing is stripping all the reasons for existence out of existence to then prolong the existence. So maybe in the future you'll someday be happy. You could be happy now.

25:28 And I think they're getting the evidence wrong. I think a lot of the evidence for that form of longevity comes from, like I don't know, supplement research, like what. But if you look psychologically at the kinds of things that extend longevity, it is happiness in the moment, your social connections, right, the good that you're doing in the world, the sense of purpose and value. Right, these are the things that extend life when you're faced with terminal illnesses and so on. And so it's like, I think they're doing it for the wrong reasons. They're going to get a long life that's not very valuable. But I also think they're missing out. If really what your goal was longevity, you might actually just want a happy life in the moment,

25:58 because that would work for you.

25:59 Have you ever talked to someone who's really old, like ninety two hundred or whatever. I've talked to many of them, and first if they don't talk about being old, they don't talk about wanting to live longer, and they're not even particularly pumped that they're still alive. To be perfectly honest, I don't mean like their life is depressing. But one of the striking things about someone you meet, anyone over a hundred, they are not clinging to life. They are not like I hope I make it to one hundred and twelve. I need two more years to get this stuff done. What they actually are is day to day.

26:29 And like I just met Richard Overton and Austin. He was one hundred and twelve, and I asked him if he takes it day by day and he said, at my age, you take it day by night. He's like, look, I just if I live through the evening, if I wake up tomorrow, that's like defying the odds once again. In fact, it can sometimes be painful. If you love these people. They're like, I'm ready to go, and you're like, don't say that, because you're not ready for them to go. Yes, but they've gotten to a place where life is no longer so precious to them, and that's probably part of it.

26:58 But it's just interesting to me that when you talk to the people who have it's like, I guess this is also true for wealth. When you talk to the people who have it, they're like, it's not that great. I'd trade it for X, Y or z. And then the people that are obsessed with life expectancy are often neglecting the present moment at the expense of some omied future.

27:19 Yes, yes, and ultimately like, when you get there, you might be happier than you think, no matter what you optimized, right. I think this is another stunning thing is that as people are will as people get older, but a specifically, as people get closer to death, they wind up being more positive rather than less. And one of the cute studies that looked at this, I mean just talk about a structural issue that we should talk about and fight about, but it looked at people on death row, right, where for older individuals, probably they're getting closer to that last moment, but we don't know what it's going to be. Unfortunately, with individuals on death row, we can measure it, and so researchers look at people's journals, their expressions and things

27:52 as they get closer, and rather than getting more negative, they actually get substantially more positive.

27:58 Because the anger, the frustration, the fear just dissipates. Because what's you're working at right? I think we don't actually know.

28:04 Why it is, but it seems like psychologically what happens is you wind up kind of happier if you look at kind of death row notes, because often people will write, you know, know, about their situation whatever, like way more strongly, like two to one, strongly positive words and other oriented words like kindness and their connection and the meaning they've gotten and so on, like it's not like me, And he.

28:25 Turns down the noise on the trivial shit. They're not like this guy stole this thing from my bunk, you know, like just the things you're holding on to when there's an eternity. There's a story Lincoln tells this guy in his town who hated this other guy. They hated each other, and he finds out he has some terminal illness, and so he reaches out and says, I want to make amends.

28:47 And so the guy comes in and sees them, and they make amends. And as the former enemy is leaving, he says, Hey, I just want you to know, if I survive this, the grudge is back. And there's something about the silliness of what we cling to that the ephemorality of life renders insignificant. And I imagine whether you're sitting on death row you just found out you have cancer, or you're ninety five, you're just like.

29:13 It doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, this is one of the benefits of awful situations like finding out you have a terminal illness or going through terrible trauma or cancer scare. Something is like you wind up more positive, more likely to kind of drop the bs. There's lots of evidence for what researchers call post traumatic growth, which is kind of just what it sounds like, right, You go through this traumatic experience and you're like, I feel more connected to my purpose, I feel more connected to other people.

29:38 I feel it's much easier to kind of do you know what the stoics said a lot about, which is like, just don't deal with the you know, just drop the boring stuff, right, And that seems to come naturally when you face something kind of existential in this rich way you have been listening to me chatting with Ryan Holliday on the Daily Stoic podcast. We'll get to more conversation after the break.

29:58 To me, the essence of wisdom is like knowing what matters and what doesn't matter, and mental more is obviously a shortcut to like the ultimate wisdom of like, hey, basically nothing matters. Accept this present moment and the people you love, but just yeah, the faster and better you can get it, being like I have no control over that, it doesn't matter. Like Seneca talks about paying the taxes of life gladly yes, we post as a daily stoke, like every April fifteen, and the irony of the people who get angry and think it's making a political point and there's you know, taxation is theft, and it's like no, he's saying that taxes are an unavoidable part of life, not just from the government, but like delays or a

30:39 tax on travel, Rainy days are a tax on you know, living in the tropics, right, Like they're just every rose has its thorn, That's what he's saying. And I think the element of what philosophy is supposed to get you to what wisdom and it's sort of these practices. Okay, this is just a fact. This is just a thing, and my opinion about it doesn't matter. Fighting about it doesn't matter. I just accept it and move on. And that's how you know you're making progress is the less hung up and resentful and bend out of shape you are about those things that just don't matter or are inalterable.

31:14 And I think if you understand a little bit about the psychology, you can realize that like, not only do you have some agency in that, but there's learning that goes on, right, there's growth. Right if you take this mindset of like I'm not gonna let the BS destroy me, then when the BS shows up, you're like, oh, hang on, this is my time to level up, Like this is some really good BS to like achieve. My comments on and that reading the Stoics has been kind of a game changer for me is to remember that when the tax shows up, you're like, oh, good thing. This is how I build up my like life tax resilience, and this is actually good. This is a chance for me to like show my metal or something. And I think

31:50 that kind of stance can be really powerful because it means you almost not only are you like, I'm just accepting of the bs. When it shows up, you're almost like, bring it. You know. I go to the airport and I'm like, is this going to be like when you go to the bath situation? Like let's you know, you know, yeah.

32:05 I remember when I moved to New York a friend who lived there a long time, He's like, look the secrets in you is you gotta you gotta understand that it costs what it costs. You come from somewhere else. You're like, this is insanely expensive, this is insanely dirty. You just have all these objections that this isn't how it should be. And he was basically saying like, look, if you're gonna go out for drinks in New York City, it's gonna cost a lot of money. You're gonna go out to breakfast, your apartment is gonna That's just what it is. And the more, the sooner you accept that.

32:31 And he wasn't making a financial point he was saying. He was saying like, don't don't add on top of this resentment and bafflement and and shock, don't you spend a ton of energy trying to think you can beat the system. It costs what it costs. And to me, that's like just a really basic philosophical like life is what it is. People are people. When you go to the baths, expect this thing. That's what it is. And that was true in ancient Rome, it was true in ancient Greece, it was true in this or that dynasty in China. It's just how it is. Like the sooner you go it costs what it costs, I'm just gonna pay, and I'm gonna pay it gladly, the happier you can be as a person.

33:09 And this, I think is where imagination can help us, because you can help yourself. Remember, ooh, this is a situation coming up where like it's a bath situation. My husband's philosopher also a big stoic stand like me, and he constantly is reminding me, like this is a bath situation. He lives in the Midwest, which means we're constantly flying through oahair Airport, and I think, like, you know, Epictitis wasn't talking about hairport, but it could have been when he was talking about the bath. And like literally when we when I'm about to book a flight and I'm like, here's our labor over here. My husband will be like, remember we go to the bath. Like when you go to O'Hair, flights get canceled. There is no read and

33:42 you just have to And I'm like, oh yeah, me through.

33:45 O hair a week and a half ago. And even though as I was looking at the flight on flight to where it's like average flights out of O'Hair are thirty two minutes delay, right, and I get there and I was flying from Dubai and so it's like all I wanted to do was get home. You know, it's like the last two and a half hour leg and get there board the plane mediate thirty two minute delay, and I'm surprised by it. I'm like, what you know?

34:12 And it's like, no, no, they told you on average this is gonna happen. It could actually be worse that it was almost certainly not going to be better. And here you are, you have the information, you know what O'Hara is like, and you know what o'haa is like right now, and then you're disappointed, caught off guard, and you are like frustrated as if something's being done to you, as if it's not being done to everyone, and they didn't warn you in advance.

34:36 Yes, yes, yes, but for me that advanced simulation when I'm like, I'm going to it. You know, we're here in Texas having this conversation. I'm in Austin. The relative to the Northeast, there's just a lot of traffic. There's a lot of like, you're just gonna not go very far and you're gonna sit in traffic. And I just have to Yes, when you're in Austin, you just you know, do it.

34:54 You go, Hey, at least it's not sell polo or something.

34:57 Right.

34:57 Yes, what the perspective goes is, hey, would you rather be canceled?

35:02 You know? And that and that moment of negativetion, like recognizing you have the agency to pick a different reference point is so. So a couple of years ago, broke my knee on the ice for the second time. So I broke my knee in ice first time, and then a few years later broke my knee again. And it was like right at the beginning of this very busy period of my life, and I was so bummed out about it, and I was like, this is a time for the stoics. And I picked up Bill Ravine in The Philosopher. I think You've had him on the show this book Stoic Challenge, and he was like, you know, this is Stoic Challenge, but the book is awesome because it goes through like you know, you broke your leg.

35:33 I was like, well that really bummer. But then he's like, but you could be you know, blind, like you could have had your leg chopped off. You could be locked in right where like you know, you literally can't communicate with anybody except blinking your eyes and drooling. And I was like, oh, that's knee is great. I can deal with me, It's like and so just having that power, like taking the agency to remember that you can find this reference point that makes you feel not that bad.

35:55 That for me has been a real game changer.

35:57 Well, Epiced, you just said, you know, we choose which handle we're going to grab, that every situation has two handles, and I actually I don't disagree with the Stokes too much, but I would say, actually, every situation has an infinite number of hands, and you get to choose which one you're going to go. So, hey, it's broke your knee instead of you know, an amputation. That's one. The other is what are the fucking chances that I broke my knee twice the same way. Isn't this hilarious? You know?

36:24 Did the Stoics talk about humor a lot? Because I feel like that's where my mind goes to you with some of these negative visualizations, but I don't see that as much. Well.

36:31 Seneca says that there's two schools of thoughts. He says, there's Democritus, who basically despaired and cried over the awfulness of life, and Heraclius, who laughed at it. And which which are you going to choose? So again, that's the handle, right, You're going to choose the depressing cynical handle. Are you going to, you know, choose the absurdity laughter handle? We know that one of the stokes, Chrysippus, dies of laughter.

36:54 He's actually on the Wikipedia page for unusual deaths. And the joke is he was sitting on his front porch and a donkey runs away from its owner and runs up and begins eating like figs out of his garden, and Chrysippus says, you should get that donkey some wine to wash down those figs, and then starts to laugh at his own joke, which, as I do not understand, like, I don't get the joke, what does it mean? And he laughs so hard that he dies beautiful, which I love because first off, we had this idea of the humorless stoics.

37:25 Yes, yes, and then in and.

37:26 Of itself is funny, what a ridiculous way to die?

37:30 Like probably if you could have told him that was how he's going to die, He's like, that's beautiful. It's a legacy, o one, and it's.

37:35 Kind of a memento more thing to like, you know, you look at like famous people who died on the toilet or you know, like just like you think life is so dignified and in your control and you're going to die with your boots on, and it's like, actually, no, you're gonna sneeze too hard and have a stroke. You know, like human body is so lame and stupid and you're not any bit above that.

37:56 Yeah, and when you ultimately look at that, it's kind of funny, right, It's kind of it's like connect you with everything, right, yeah.

38:02 Yes, you see like, oh, there's a deer, got an antler stuck in a tree they'll find or have you ever seen where it's like too like a deer with another deer's heads. Oh yes, ah, yes, you're just like that's so dumb. And then you're like human history is in full of dumber ways that we've killed each other or accidentally killed ourselves. You know, it's just like life is pathetic in that way.

38:24 Yeah. Recognizing that humor can be part of your agency, I think is really really, really powerful.

38:29 Do you feel like the Stokes didn't talk about happiness enough?

38:32 Well, I think, I mean, their whole point was getting to a happy life. I think they didn't define it that much because I think they were kind of like, what you want is like not to be bothered by the bs of life. Like I think they didn't state that out because they just thought it was so self aware.

38:44 Let's eliminate all the pointless causes of unhappiness.

38:47 Yes, yeah, yeah, And ultimately I think you know, they're channeling something I think is really important in the happiness science, which is like, even in extreme circumstances, like it doesn't define your happiness in the way that you think, right, and all the good stuff definitely doesn't define your happiness, like getting more money, getting more prestige, that stuff, it doesn't make you happier and I think the Stoics were onto that, but also for a different reason, just like at any point it could go away, right, And so if you're going for that and you tend not to have control over that stuff as much, right, So leading a life where you really don't want to be perturbed, just go for the stuff that you can control, and

39:20 you make it much easier on yourself.

39:21 Well, Cistero's question was like, can you be happy on the rack?

39:24 Yes?

39:25 And that seems like, you know, is that like a philosophical question like the trolley problem? And then it's like, well, this dude did get his head and hands chopped off, yes, by a vindictive you know enemy, so it wasn't so abstract like he did me. And can you be happy when you're grieving the loss of a child? Can you be happy when your your government has fallen? Can you be happy when you're in exile? I do think the Stoics specifically had a more robust and resilient happiness in mind.

39:56 They weren't talking about laughter and fun much as it's not smiling happiness, but it's something more profound.

40:04 Your diamondeir right, They're like stealing from these other ancient concepts. So it's really about kind of having a flourishing life. But I think the difference of a flourishing life for the Stoics is like, Okay, have the flourishing life and do all the good, valuable moral things, but also don't let the BS get you down. Yes, like don't experience the perturbations. If we could just get or just not get rid of the negative emotions but use them in ways to get you towards your values and regulate them as quickly as possible. Yeah, part is like you can, right, And so I think what the stoics are really focused on, or at least my root of the Stoics is focused on, is like regulating that negative emotion so that you feel

40:37 happy kind of in your life. Modern day psychologists tend to think about happiness as having these two parts, sort of being happy in your life, so ideally lots of positive emotion, the laughter and so on, but less negative emotion, not none, but less negative emotion. And then second, being happy with your life, which is kind of like you think your life is going well. It has valuepose having enough, having enough of you, eating some conditional future thing to go a certain way to become happy then, but you have it now, yeah, And I think the Stoics tapped into both of these. Often psychologists talk about these two parts as sort of the affective part of happiness, how your life feels, versus the cognitive part of happiness, how

41:12 you think your life is going right, And I think the Stoics wanted to kind of achieve both, Right, you regulate your negative emotions, you come with all these strategies to have control over them, but you also have control over your thoughts and how you think it's going right, And so even in a bad situation, you can think it's going well because you have a mechanism of appreciating it.

41:30 Yeah, it's it's tough though.

41:32 It's tough though.

41:33 How many how many powerful, successful, important people would we would we say we're happy?

41:41 Very few? Right, Yeah, But I think the Stoics would be like yep, because like they're going after all these things that they ultimately can't control, right, right. But I think also so that's another big principle of the happiness science, Like you can definitely become happier, you can't become infinitely happier.

41:57 Like most of the modal size of most of the effects in the field are about ten percent. Dan Harris is this idea of ten percent happier and it's really is really built on the evidence because you can go up about a point on a ten point happiness scale. But most of these interventions to do right so you can get happier, well, ultimately it takes some work. Yeah, and I think those stoics knew about you know. I mean some of the most painful passages in the stoics for me, or when they're just like laying out like yeah, you know, your your kid could go and you got to like just be like, yep, he didn't belong to me anyway. And you're like yeah, but like, yeah, you know, it didn't belong to me. So if I really want

42:29 to be happy, I just have to not I have to you know, the day after your spouse dies, you're like, yeah, I'm not perturbed because my goal is to live unperturbed. And you're like, oh man, that's rough. That takes a lot of work.

42:40 It's a lot to ask. It's a bit much to be. Like, you know, Mark s Realis his meditation is a little depressing. It's like, Okay, this guy was the most powerful person in the world, Yeah, he spent his whole reign at war. There was a flood, there was a famine, there was a coup attempt. Some historians think his wife was repeatedly unfaithful.

42:59 He buried more than half of his children, He lost his father as a young man. You know, just think of the conniving, awful, disingenuous people he would have had to deal with on a day to day basis. And by the way, what he really liked was books and he never had a time like it's a lot to be like, well, you know, he could have been more fun like that this guy got out of bed in the morning was a profound statement about his happiness and hopefulness and you know sort of character and resilience. Like I think it would have wrecked most people. Yeah, it's insane that he didn't kill himself, to be quite honest, Like, how did he not stagger under those bulls? And I would say he probably did. But there was some fundamental

43:44 love of life and the day to day that kept him going.

43:49 And I think that this, you know, this idea of a fundamental love of life in the day to day that keeps you going is so powerful, right, And the happiness space folks often talk about gratitude. I think can sometimes sound cheesy. I wish i'd better marketing. Yeah, I like to talk often about delights. Yes, which it was kind of just like things in the world that you like. Delight, Like it's just you know, sunny out cats here and is really cute. You know, the morning coffee has a little swirl in it and that's funny. It's like, oh, delight, just like some of the.

44:15 Best writing and meditations. He's out like a stock of grain bending under its own weight. He talks about the brow of a lion. My favorite delight one he talks about the way that you put a loaf of bread in the oven and when it comes out, it has this crack on the top and he's like, nobody knows why, and it wasn't on purpose, but it's sort of pretty and just like the poet's eye for the mundane extraordinariness of life.

44:41 Yeah, And I think you know what they're tapping into is is a positive motion that we know is super important for happiness. We don't talk about a lot, which is emotion of awe. Right, it's kind of something bigger than you. It's kind of like you don't really understand it, so it kind of makes you feel a little bit weird.

44:56 And I think the Stoic saw that level of awe in so many things, including the moral goodness of other people. Right, This guy, Dakar Keltner at UC Berkeley, does a lot of studies of awe, and he kind of goes through the different cat gorys where we experience awe. Like you think it's like, you know, like some spiritual moment or taking psychedelics or the Grand Canyon. And he's like, most of the ones that normal people report on a day to day are the moral goodness of other people. Yeah, just like somebody did something really amazing and good, or somebody achieved some really interesting thing, like and I think there's a.

45:27 Pair of sunglasses and they're at the Lost and Found.

45:30 Yeah, hear of them in or you know, you're walking and somebody drops their idea and you see someone else pick up the id for them, and you're like, that's just you.

45:36 See someone help a mom down a flight of stairs, like carry the stroller or whatever, you know, like strangers when yeah, oh holding the door open.

45:44 Yes, Yeah, they're just kind of helpers around. And I think that the Stoics were looking for those moments of moral goodness. They wanted to experience them themselves and be the kind of person that did that stuff. But they also were like open to noticing it. Plus the cracks on the bread, right, the little, tiny, little wonderful delights in the world.

46:01 You were saying, awe, It's like, how do you find awe in an awful world?

46:05 Right? Like not?

46:06 Hey, Look, if you retreat to a monastery and you live in the beautiful green hills of China, you know, open up the window and be like, wow, this is amazing. That's that's one thing. And it's like, I'm gonna go to the beach this weekend. It's going to be wonderful. The ocean is the ocean, But it's can you find the awe in the delayed flight on the way there? Yeah, this is the miracle of flights. Yes, And you know the rude person, Hey, that we're not like stabbing each other to death is actually pretty incredible. That the coordination of all of this, and you know that, can you find it in the in the not so awesome thing? Yeah, that's where the work is.

46:43 The anthropologist Sarah Herdi, who studies you know, primates and primate interactions. Has this essay about getting off a flight where everybody stands up and everybody's like pissy and kind of hungry, and she's like, if this was any other species, like she literally says, no one would leave with their testicles, Like testicles would just be all over this delta fla like on the chairs and killing each we'd be killing each other. And she's like, it is amazing that we have when it that we get to be in one of the few species that all that happens is somebody says a nasty thing to them, we.

47:11 Can tend to buy and large cooperate.

47:12 And yeah, you know, so even in like the o hair terribleness, you can find, you know, these moments off. But as we were just saying, it's hard, and it's hard in part because our mind is built with this negativity bias. We instantly go to the terrible things. It takes no work whatsoever to find like how mad I am about O'Hair? Are the flights delayed? Right? But it takes some work to notice the neutral stuff or the good stuff. But this is what I think that the kind of training and the practice is about, right, is that you build up the ability to do that better and better. I hope you've been enjoying my conversation with Ryan Holiday on the Daily Stoic podcast. We'll have even more after.

47:46 The break, don't you think That's the challenge of our time?

47:49 Though?

47:49 It is like, how do you find in so much awfulness? How do you not let miserable awful people which we see on the headlines or in the headlines. Yeah, I can pick up my phone right now and change my mood negatively if I wanted to. How do you not let that make you miserable? How do you not, like the Stokes talk about it, the best revenge is to not be like that? How do you find happiness in profoundly unhappy times?

48:15 That's the challenge, well, one of the insights I had, because I think sometimes also people think an additional challenge of that is people think it's not moral to find happiness in those times? Right? How can you be the person that's looking away when you know the economy is falling apart, the climate's falling apart, the world's falling apart.

48:31 Like you're a bad person if you're not like the idea of if you're not angry, you're not paying attention, right, But this winds up being an interesting empirical question for nerdy psychologists like me. Like that has a certain hypothesis, which is like, if you're not violently angry and very perturbed in the stoic words about this, you're not doing anything about it. And this guy constantin Kushlav at Georgetown has been studying this. He actually goes out and asks like, who are the people who are like showing up at a protest for example, for like say Black Lives Matter, climate justice or something, And he finds it's actually the people who are experiencing the least negative emotion. And you

49:03 kind of when you reflect on it, you get that you're like, oh, if I'm experiencing extreme negative emotion, like I'm not getting out of it, and under the douvet about like all the.

49:10 Typical statement of hope to go to the protest exactly.

49:13 You think that there's some agency that you can take to fix it. And that set of findings has helped me a little bit because sometimes I kind of fall under that like how dare I not be upset at this? How dare I not be angry or sad or whatever, and that research suggests like, actually, if you want the bandwidth to make a difference, you got a ghostoic and regulate some of your emotions so that you're noticing the bad things, yes, but you're not affected perturbed by them, right, And in theory, that's going to give you the psychological bandwidth to actually fix this stuff. So I've been helped by recognize like, oh, it's not just not a bad thing to not be pissed off at all this stuff or participate in it to the point that it affects

49:50 my emotions. It's actually the most effective thing I could do if what I want to do is act better.

49:55 What all comes down to efficacy, right, because if you are up against evil or powerful interests or intractable you know, complex issues, The idea that you're going to bring your best self while you're caught up in the passions as the stokes it'd say, it is preposterous. No, it's precisely here that you need to be the most calm, the most in command of yourself because they're not going to give you anything, right, they want you to be angry.

50:20 That's actually, I mean part of the media strategy, as they have disclosed. Is this idea of flooding the zone with shit, making everyone confused and overwhelmed, making them believe they're more powerful than they are, that the resistance is less powerful and the you know, the powers that be are more powerful, to make you think it's not possible, that it's only going to get worse, and then you don't do anything. That's the whole point is to make you irrational so you can't rationally solve for the actually somewhat solvable problems.

50:51 Yeah, and I think that, you know, what the research really shows is that we're just much better at solving these problems when we are not be set by our emotional voice, right, I mean, I think this is the thing you forget that, like you knows. There's other cute study by my former colleague Susan Nolan Huximo where she looks at this idea that we sometimes assume and that like if I ruminate about this problem, like gere really upset about it, if it's like really affecting me, then then I'll find a solution. Because I think we have this We're not like Massachiss of wanting to be so upset about stuff. I think we think that this is the right thing to do to get to a good solution.

51:21 But she has people either ruminate about a particular problem. These are college students, so it's not like someone's not hanging out with you. It's like these problems that aren't you know, the world peace and these big things we're worried about. But she either has people ruminate about it or just distract yourself, just do something else to distract yourself when you're thinking about this problem. And then she has people go through optimal solutions, and she finds up people who are ruminating, people who are thinking about it, getting so upset about it that she came up with the worst solutions than somebody who just distracted themselves. And we're like, I'm not gonna and so this is this is a sort of strategy I've taken with the current

51:49 news cycle, where there's it's one thing to be informed, but it's another to be like destroyed by this stuff. And I think that like what you actually need to do to get informed is not is not as much as we think. It's not being on social media every day, like you're gonna hear about what's going on in twenty to four to forty eight hours.

52:07 I don't need any more information to let me know that what they're doing is criminal, that it's cruel, that it's stupid, that it violates most of the laws of economics. Also, like I know this by now, right, and this is also the fundamental idea from the agents that characterist fate, Like when you like, even if some of the ideas were good, the people who are trying to execute them are bad people doing them for you know, motivated by bad reasons. So I'm a post right, So I don't need to follow this day to day. Like sometimes it can be helpful to look back historically, Like if in nineteen sixty four you sort of actually put some thought into what was happening in Vietnam and the bogus reasons we were there, you would go, yeah, we have no

52:53 business being here and everything we do there is wrong. You didn't need to then follow it day to day for the next seven or eight years to update your opinion. Your opinion was correct from the outset. Actually you need you could be organizing, you could be moving, you can there's you know, you could you could be running for office.

53:11 There's a bunch of things you could do. But reading the day to day news reports is only going to make you despair.

53:18 And that was when it was day to day.

53:19 Right.

53:20 The problem is we like, I mean, you know, yes to you if you only look at this stuff.

53:24 Like a daily newspaper, Oh my god, that would be incredible.

53:27 Yeah, I mean I often think about, like what would the stoics think about what we are? You know, just like the clickbaity headlines designed to like steal your emotions, they would be like, what what have you done?

53:39 Like about Mark Thrus He's the head of this empire, so all the news, all the important he's it's all his purview. He would look at your and my information diet and be like, how do you manage? And he was running an empire of fifty million people in which information was essential, right, And he'd be like, you're just getting minute to minute reports about like cabinet meetings. He'd be like, I mean they tell me, like I've been at the front for the last two years. They send me summaries and I read that like it's insane. How much information? And if you're not an intelligence operative or a hedge fund manager, chances are you are doing nothing with this information but torturing you you want to get

54:20 just enough and you want to have rooted it enough in psychology and history and you know, philosophy that you can know what's what, like you can know what's good, what's bad, what's cruel, what's immoral, et cetera. But you know, I don't think you need You don't need the minutes of these meetings. You're not in the cabinet.

54:39 Yeah, you know, yeah, And I think you need to notice how it's affecting you. This is why I always love you know, stealing all the ancients and pulling them together. I think this was something that you know, the Buddhists talked about a lot, right, is this idea of noticing every time I pick up my phone and go on Blue Sky, I leave with my you know, my chest clenched.

54:56 I'm like ready to scree. You know, my husband's been talking about like it's like, oh, that wasn't good. But I think sometimes these things happen, like our emotions change so unconsciously, and then we can unconsciously affect other people's real skill to be noticing what this stuff is doing to you. And so I think just notice, like, you know, did you get the information you wanted, or is it maybe after or worse? Yeah?

55:19 You exactly, Yeah, I do. I feel worse every time I do this? Why am I doing it over and over and over again expecting to feel differently? Yeah, and it's time just like you know, what are the I think sitting down and going hey, what parts of my information diet can I cut out? And again that you have a duty to be an informed, participating citizen. But where is the proof that this is informing you.

55:43 Or helping you participate?

55:44 Exactly? Yeah, exactly yeah.

55:46 Catherine Price, who's been on my podcast The Happiness Lab a Bunch, She has this lovely book called How to Break Up with Your Phone, where she kind of argues you don't need to break up with your phone, you need to take it, like to couples counseling for kind of situations like this with the news. She has this acronym she uses www whenever she tries to interact with her social media, which stands for what for, Why now?

56:04 And what else? Like what was this for? Was there a purpose to it? Was I trying to check some effect about what was happening in the news, or was I just like sucked in right? Why now? And this is like kind of mindfulness, like what drew you in? You already a little anxious and that made you scroll even more so you kind of you know, created your own doom.

56:20 Spiral, frustrated tired board.

56:23 Right, like all these things that if we were, you know, following the stoics, we'd just find some other way to notice and find somebody to do it. But the biggest one what else? Right, there's an opportunity cost whenever you're spending your limited time, you know, moving up to your eventual you know deaths, right, like doing this stuff and like what you know, what else could you be doing with that time that might fit with your higher ideals and your values better? And the acronym has kind of helped me because sometimes I'll you know, you probably do this.

56:47 So you just find yourself with your phone in your hand, your midstream you're like, wait, www, Like I was being avoidant because I was avoiding some other problem, and now I'm anxious about this other thing, and like I could put this down and take a walk, or I could put this down and go talk to my husband or something.

57:00 Yeah, my wife and I try to like when we see each other, you know, really getting sacked in the phone we go, you don't want to be doing that, and then as soon as you kind of the trance, you're like, oh yeah, but I'm like it was designed by the smartest people with the best technology for the same reason the casino doesn't have clocks or windows, and you just need someone to snap you out of the hypnosis a little bit and then you can make you can make a better new decision instead of just con the continuing the decision that you already made.

57:32 I mean, that's another thing I'm constantly thinking about what the stoics would think about. You know, we just talked about like the information overload that we're all experiencing, the kind of fire hose. How's the stoics would be fascinated by the trance? Right, There's so much stuff now that sucks us into a trance. And I think, you know, the Buddhist had a different take on that, which is like, you want to be president in the trance's batch. For that reason, I think the Stoics think you're the trance causes you to miss out and so many positive motions and often is indirectly sucking you into lots of negative emotions too.

57:59 Yes, yeah, anything that had power over you, they would have been very skeptical of So you're like, I can't not do this thing. They'd be like, well, yeah this is stuff.

58:09 Yeah, you gotta get away from that.

58:10 So you have the momentumry ring. And then what's the other bracelet?

58:13 So the other bracelet, which actually my producer Ryan is my co writer for my podcast The happeningest Lab gave me is it's an arrow with two arrow points that goes around as a bracelet. Sometimes it stabs me because it's very sharp, but that's throwing me. The parable the second arrow, which comes from the Buddhist So if you don't know it, Buddha is talking to his followers and he asked his followers, if you're walking down the street and someone shoots you with an arrow, is that bad?

58:34 And the followers are like, yeah, kind of seems like that sucks. Like so it says, okay, imagine you're walking on the streets, someone shoots you with the first arrow, but then they also, immediately after that shoot the second arrow too. Is the second arrow is that worse? And the followers are like, yeah, it sucks? Do I says much, just get shot by a second arrow? So Buddha says, first arrow is the circumstances of life. That's your car doesn't start, that's you break your knee, that's your hair up and your flight's delayed. You don't have any control over that. That's the world shooting with the arrow. But the second arrow is usually the one you shoot yourself with.

59:04 That's that I get really pissed off at the you know, the delayed flight. I'm angry and I'm busy. My husband when I break my knee or whatever it is, and he's like, you don't have any control over that first arrow. But the second arrow you are shooting yourself with. And in my case, in the worst moments, it's not just a second arrow, it's like a sixteenth and a second day arrow, because like you know, I've like, you know, somebody at work does something stupid. Hours later, I'm talking to a friend and I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe that person did that. And it's like the person's action is done. This is hours later, and so it's a Buddhist you know, parable in a buddhistradition. But I think if it's so much with the stoics, it's

59:38 like the one arrow, let that go because like you can't control it, you know, ignore it, deal with it. But the second arrow, it's on you. You definitely can control that one. And so for me that's been really helpful is like, is this the first arrow or is this the second arrow? Sometimes my producer Ryan, who gave me the thing, Well, if I'm complaining about something over text, he's based on Lenon's. We're often texting each other. He'll text me that archeria emoji archi opr and I'm like, okay, fair enough to shut up. Moving on.

1:00:06 Well, Epictheta said, you know, it's not things that upset us, it's our pag about things, and our opinion about things is the second era, right, it happened. It is bad it happened. I'm harmed by it happened because that person is an asshole and they purposely targeted me. That's the second arrow. Stuff, the story we tell ourselves about it, I'll never recover, et cetera.

1:00:28 And it's so amazing just how differently you feel when you change the story. My father in law passed away recently, and you know, everything was discombobulated, and I was like, you know, we weren't doing stuff and I found myself remembering that, like, hey, this is a possibility in people's lives. People die, and you know, was that like you know, a parking lot or something and somebody like pulled into my space and my instant reaction other than like that person's what whatever, like maybe a family member of theirs died.

1:00:52 It was just like in the possibility space for me, and that just like changed my reaction to everything. Like instead of being pissy, I had like compassion. I'm like, oh my gosh, cut in line, you know, do this thing, and that just feels so different. But it really was just like a slight change in the possibility space of which handle I was grabbing to interpret this event, and you just realize that's possible for you all the time.

1:01:14 Yeah, in a way, some of our grief is the second arrow. Not that we're sad that we lost them, this is.

1:01:20 The one I have to say. It's like, if I get it, I know the stokes are right, but like, wow, is this one hard? Like your kid dies, You're like, well, it wasn't really mine in the first place.

1:01:28 Moving on, because I feel like the grief of just loss is unavoidable and a fact, right, I don't think any of the Stokes were like, oh they were mortal when I met them. I don't think anyone's actually doing that, right, And I'm not sure it's healthy to do that. But the decision to say be haunted by the memory of this person is a loss on top of the loss.

1:01:52 So while they were alive, every time you thought of them it was positive, right, yeah, And when you saw them it was positive. And now they're gone, and you know, you think of the anniversary of their death, or you know, every once in a while, like I think about how many dead people are on my phone? Oh yeah, right, because I type in the letter C and then oh shit, I forgot. But the feeling of sadness, loss, bitterness, whatever, I could also feel joy and love and gratitude. And so there's this second and Seneca talks about this in one of his consolation essays where he's like, do you think your father would want you to break down in sadness every time you think of him? That would have been like if as he was leaving life, he was like,

1:02:38 by the way, your memory's going to haunt your daughter? Like he'd be like, no, So that's the worst thing all anyone would want is to be remembered fondly and be a positive, ongoing sort of energy in your life. And that is on total control of that, especially right as it happens. But as time goes by, I think you get to choose whether how you think about that memory and what that death means to you.

1:03:05 And I think the stoics were kind of hedging against a certain form of grief, which is like, I didn't do right by that person, I didn't spend time with them, right, Like in theory, they're hedging against the regret of what happened, so that you know, when a person you care about passes, you're like, I recognize they were mortal the whole time, and no, I'm not grieving, but I don't regret what I did when they were alive. I spent the time that I could have spent with them. I invested as much, like you know, I'm washing my hands of the regret part of it, and that that does feel like a different way to grieve.

1:03:36 I think they're certainly not holding onto the grudge. Yeah they're dead, Yeah, so I'm not sure they want you to be like I should have called more. You know, they have they have let that go. You probably can too.

1:03:49 Yeah, but if you do it in advance, then then everybody you know, then it's happy all the way through.

1:03:53 Yeah. But yeah, the second arrow of like, Okay, you lost them too soon and now you feel guilty all the time. Yeah, that like you did lose them too soon and you could have done better. But the decision to wake up today and feel like it's a shit about it. That's the second arrow or third arrow, fourth arrow, that's.

1:04:11 Right, and recognize the second arrows on you Like it's sort of you know, like two things right, Like this is in the second category. This is the thing that you can control and it might be hard and it might take some work, but you actually can change your opinion about it.

1:04:25 Yeah, Fate took them from you, but you are taking this out on yourself. Yes.

1:04:29 Yeah, it's very stoic w to from the second arrow.

1:04:34 No, it's so beautiful. How like I do know there's a couple stoic like archery lessons. I mean they had the same technology and they were alive at the same time.

1:04:42 Well, I was wondering, like it's just people getting shot with arrows all over the place, Buddhist ds, Like what was going on and like this ach at times for you.

1:04:48 I know, both the Stokes and the Buddhists use that like muddy water one, and so you're just like, even the metaphors are the same. Yeah, like they're just coming on the same essential truths. And it's very rare that you come across any of the philosophical schools and you're like, this is something totally different than any of the others.

1:05:06 And to go to the earlier point, this totally contradicts all the science about this subject.

1:05:12 Well as well. I was saying the Buddhists. There are the cases where I like the Buddhists better than the Stones. Here's the case where I like the Stoics better than a Buddhist, which is that the Buddhists were like really into the idea of suffering, not into it like you should get it, just like it is inevitable, it is there, it is centered, and I think the Stoics were like, yeah, there's the perturbations, but like it's number two, like it's these are conceptually, these are two distinct categories. So whereas the Buddhists were like, the central is suffering and then you got to do the stuff around it. The Stoics were like, I don't know, man, these are two categories and we could kind of think about them differently, and

1:05:41 so that's always given me a little bit more hope.

1:05:44 I also think, you know, living in Western civilization, there's something about the Stoics that that is not just familiar but sort of practical in the sense where it's like, somebody's got to run for office. Yeah, he's gotta, man, the sewers, you know, Like I think Buddhism is a more spiritual and sort of individualistic pursuit, and there's something about Stuf philosophy that is like, okay, but this will work for society, not a band of roving monks.

1:06:16 Yeah. I mean the stocks were like the og like advice column, self help, you know, like it was going to be like not in the posh like you know, like books and stuff like it was gonna be in whatever, the like tabloid magazine, TikTok video of the time was going to be minus the terial algorithmic stuff.

1:06:30 But yeah, I think the Buddhists and the Cynics are closer to each other in the sense where they're like, this is all bullshit, man, you know, And the stokes are like a little some of it is, but like.

1:06:42 Dude, you gotta get through your day, you know, yeah.

1:06:43 Yeah, exactly like you. You have a kid and they're hungry, so how are you going to feed them? You know, there's just like there's a sort of this is life, this is the human organism we were born into, and we have to figure out how to operate collectively in this city that we live in.

1:07:00 And there's like positive emotion on the other side of that, right, there's like these kind of opportunities for growth or humor and all these things we were talking about.

1:07:07 Well, this is awesome. You want to check out some books first?

1:07:09 Yeah, please, let's do it.

1:07:16 Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.