S1E9 - BONUS Q&R: The Secret Struggles of Fathers, Isolation, Secrecy, Confession, Authority with Love, and Balancing Work with Family

0:02 [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to live intentionally as a father.

0:21 [SPEAKER_06]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's going to help you break down fatherhood into eight columns. [SPEAKER_04]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home.

0:39 [SPEAKER_06]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers. [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast. [SPEAKER_04]: This is our response to all of your questions for season one, Justin Whimmel early. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, brick mosa.

0:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Hello. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm so excited to respond. [SPEAKER_04]: You guys sent in so many questions. [SPEAKER_04]: Did people send questions? [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and we've got to do what we said. [SPEAKER_04]: We do answer them. [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to respond. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm now this episode coming out.

1:08 [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it still has to be said. [SPEAKER_04]: If you still have questions, you can still send them to hello. [SPEAKER_04]: An intentional fatherhood. [SPEAKER_04]: uh... dot org that'd be great and also to let everybody know again rating subscribing sharing it helps a ton so uh... we are so excited to respond to so many questions we got a lot of questions i know it makes me so happy you need to know people took you seriously i'll say us it's week well you said it more than i did but but i love it [SPEAKER_06]: They sent voice members.

1:35 [SPEAKER_06]: It's so fun hearing people so fun. [SPEAKER_04]: And so here's what's going to have it. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just going to give you. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to set the stage. [SPEAKER_04]: We're just going to get right into it. [SPEAKER_04]: You guys sent so many good questions thoughtful questions.

1:43 [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to actually listen into your voice. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you'll hear it on air in real time and then we're just going to respond. [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll sit here. [SPEAKER_04]: We'll all hear the question even you listener. [SPEAKER_04]: You'll hear the person where they're from all that stuff and then we're going to respond with some of you sending questions didn't realize you're going to make it to the air your voices about to be played live here.

2:02 [SPEAKER_04]: you're finding it, which is exciting. [SPEAKER_04]: So here we go. [SPEAKER_04]: Ready for the first one? [SPEAKER_04]: Let's dive in. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, here is our first one. [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go. [SPEAKER_02]: Hey guys, my name's Zach from the Terry California, just listen to your first podcast episode on Price and Isolation and just wanted you guys to know that it was extremely comforting and encouraging.

2:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you and yeah, just a little bit about kind of the season of life I'm in. [SPEAKER_02]: work full-time, my wife is staying home with the kids. [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a three-year-old and a one-year-old, and they're just, they're needs of our state. [SPEAKER_02]: Intense, and we're, you know, in the thick of that.

2:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So really, in the season, I'm feeling very lonely, in the sense that some of my close friends are [SPEAKER_02]: to someone who I spent a lot of time with and then my friends who are parents and in our community I just don't feel like we really are, we are in a rhythm where we spend much time with anyone in particular so it's hard friends but we are in the state of like never feeling really known and it's really hard to find like the energy in the time to coordinate.

3:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Rhythms with friends to get that depth and to get that consistency feels like there's always something that, you know, it's causing us to feel like we're not able to lean in as much as we want. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but your podcast was really helpful reminder to pursue that and to do it, you know, with, with, creates in mind and with humility in mind, prayer in mind that [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel, you know, still I kind of know exactly what we'll change in the near future, but I was encouraged that I'm not alone as a dad feeling lonely, isolated, and also, you know, succumbing to vices that so easily kind of exacerbated that lonelyness and only be to more isolation.

4:17 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, appreciate you guys and just wanted to let you know I'm really grateful for [SPEAKER_04]: Mm. [SPEAKER_04]: Zach, thank you. [SPEAKER_06]: Zach from California. [SPEAKER_06]: That's so good. [SPEAKER_06]: That's very appreciate your honesty. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and vulnerability there.

4:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to just say, you know, maybe the question kind of coming out of that is, how do we maybe make space? [SPEAKER_04]: I know there wasn't as directive a question and Zach, that's no shade. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying pulling out maybe some for others listening. [SPEAKER_04]: How do we create some of that community when we're in stages that do not lend themselves naturally to the kinds of friendships and relationships we need?

4:52 [SPEAKER_06]: I have thoughts on that, but before I give any, I really do think it's helpful to rename and re-agreue what SAC said, it's unsurprising and actually total normal, totally normal that so many of us look up in the early years of raising children and say, I'm really lonely. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

5:12 [SPEAKER_06]: Because it is isolating, it is difficult. [SPEAKER_06]: And so before it's a problem, it's normal, but I think it's important. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: One of the books I've mentioned that helped me so much was role-hizer's domestic monastery. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, love that book. [SPEAKER_06]: And he tells a wonderful little story in this book about a monk retreating to the desert to pray.

5:36 [SPEAKER_06]: And then after years praying in the desert, emerging only to find that his mother was still more loving and less selfish than him. [SPEAKER_06]: And a lot of it, the book is about how [SPEAKER_06]: Parenting is like going into the desert to be tried to do spiritual battle. [SPEAKER_06]: And it is a long spiritual tradition of going into solitude and being alone and actually pulling away in order to find God in your need for him.

6:03 [SPEAKER_06]: And so just before we talk about it as a problem, I actually just want to name this can be a helpful point in your life. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't want to stay here, okay, but it's a helpful point in your life to realize you're at the young early stage of parenting where it's isolating and it's difficult and you're alone.

6:23 [SPEAKER_06]: Don't try to get rid of that too quickly, lean into real, to realize that God is doing something in your life, then he is preparing you in a unique way through this difficulty and he's working. [SPEAKER_06]: So it's not totally wrong. [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I do want to say, you can't stay there.

6:39 [SPEAKER_06]: You can't stay in isolation because unless you're called to go into the desert and be a monk and very few are you very few are you are called to community. [SPEAKER_06]: You are called to a communal life. [SPEAKER_06]: So Jesus never calls us to himself alone and your fatherhood, as we said, needs you to be in community.

6:57 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: So while I would say be patient with that stage, it's not unusual to feel isolated. [SPEAKER_06]: I would also say you must relentlessly. [SPEAKER_06]: try to find people who can enter that stage. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: There are two ways that I know how to do it.

7:16 [SPEAKER_06]: One relentlessly invite your single friends and even if they're not in families, even if they're not in the same stage. [SPEAKER_06]: Yep. [SPEAKER_06]: And why don't you dinner? [SPEAKER_06]: And they're not going to understand. [SPEAKER_06]: That's okay. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't understand people either.

7:28 [SPEAKER_06]: You're going to be like, they don't really get who we are. [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need to be gotten on the first hangout. [SPEAKER_06]: Just keep inviting them in. [SPEAKER_06]: It's good for them, too. [SPEAKER_06]: And second, find some sort of accountability, discipleship relationships, small group, Bible study, men's group, whatever it is.

7:46 [SPEAKER_06]: Some authentic group of conversation where you can go away from marriage, away from family, and be just with guys talking about their honest problems in their life. [SPEAKER_06]: You've got to do this. [SPEAKER_06]: You've got to be talking and be vulnerable. [SPEAKER_04]: My only addition and it's not, I mean, it's a blessing slash addition is you have to be the one to initiate that.

8:06 [SPEAKER_04]: So if your friend moved out of town initiate when the next hang is initiate weekly calls. [SPEAKER_04]: My one of my most kindred spirits and my best buddy, Ben, he lives three hours from me. [SPEAKER_04]: And we've lived many states apart before. [SPEAKER_04]: We stay connected like literally last week.

8:23 [SPEAKER_04]: I had a day off and I was like, bro, do you want to go hang out at like a lake for a day like you want to meet in the middle and Elizabeth like if you just want to go to his house and like spend like stay the night you could do that. [SPEAKER_04]: I was like mom's letting me do a sleep over in a day like bro.

8:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like [SPEAKER_04]: No way. [SPEAKER_04]: I can't believe this. [SPEAKER_04]: I slept on his couch like it was he has four kids like you know, I went away. [SPEAKER_04]: Like I truly like I had to pursue it. [SPEAKER_04]: I had to talk to my wife and and I did that for me.

8:51 [SPEAKER_04]: I did that for my community and for those of people that I've connected with now. [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's daily relationships. [SPEAKER_04]: There's weekly monthly, but I think you have to just [SPEAKER_04]: understand Zach one thing I hear you saying is you're in the transition of what life used to be when you had all the time and all the freedom and all the ability and you had a lot of access to relationships that were pretty easy.

9:11 [SPEAKER_04]: You're now in a new stage and just like Justin said naming. [SPEAKER_04]: Just let me name that for you as well. [SPEAKER_04]: That's very normal. [SPEAKER_04]: You're just not used to that yet. [SPEAKER_04]: And you're right that you like you said Justin you cannot stay there. [SPEAKER_04]: I also think that it's getting used to a new normal and building new muscles and new habits and rhythms and it feels really jarring first.

9:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it really does and you said it perfectly there is a stage of parenting that is so lonely and boring. [SPEAKER_04]: It's frustrating. [SPEAKER_04]: And your kids are interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: I want to be how strange. [SPEAKER_04]: But I like the soul sucking. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I'd be like boring is the right word.

9:42 [SPEAKER_04]: There's been many and nights where I'm like, I haven't seen the sun go down in ages because I've been putting kids to bed, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I've missed so many senses. [SPEAKER_04]: Right? [SPEAKER_04]: Like, we can get bitter about that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: And then you can also realize like life is long.

9:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I'll see more sunset. [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, so just practically, I think what you said is great, and Zach, thank you for. [SPEAKER_04]: Kitek, one thing I'm before we go to the next question. [SPEAKER_04]: Do it do it do it do it. [SPEAKER_06]: I really like that Elizabeth was like, go see him.

10:07 [SPEAKER_06]: You know, go let's send you out of the house. [SPEAKER_06]: So just quick encouragement for spouses here. [SPEAKER_06]: do do this for your spouse so your spouse is also struggling with this feeling of all I am and is in the house only hanging out with you guys and we rightly and to it we need we need God and the community I've got so I just say daily weekly and seasonally spouses help help your spouse be someone who is daily seeking Jesus.

10:38 [SPEAKER_06]: it weekly seeking out a friendship and seasonally seeking out a get away with other friends and that might be annually that might be semi-annually but if you're daily seeking out time with Jesus and weekly you're seeking out a conversation with others and then seasonally you're seeking out a getaway and you're sending your wife to do those things or encouraging her to be in the word or vice versa you're encouraging your husband to do that that is going to be the antidote to that season in life and you'll make it through [SPEAKER_06]: very helpful.

11:09 [SPEAKER_04]: Next question. [SPEAKER_04]: What next question? [SPEAKER_04]: Right. [SPEAKER_04]: Here we go. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Brooke and Justin. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Eric from Lincoln, Nebraska. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a pastor and I meet with a lot of guys, particularly in the recovery world about pornography and and so I get a lot of confessions in my office and one thing I noticed in the church is it doesn't [SPEAKER_01]: model confession, or that confession is a normal part of our church life.

11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I see as incredibly valuable Because guys walk out of an office feeling Uplifting and like they've been believing lies this whole time. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't actually have that much power over them [SPEAKER_01]: How would you model confession for people? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you start very practically in a relationship with another guy saying I want to do this?

12:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to do this with you both ways like that we confess our junk. [SPEAKER_06]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_06]: Eric. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, Eric. [SPEAKER_06]: Such a good question. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I have so many things. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure you just, you want it? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you start.

12:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I just was thinking, yes, I think it's James five. [SPEAKER_04]: confess your sins to one another that you would be healed. [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's so interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: We have forgiveness and when we confess to Jesus, we have forgiveness. [SPEAKER_04]: When we confess to others, we have healing.

12:41 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a very important deed. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that when I go to Jesus, I get forgiveness. [SPEAKER_04]: for sure, forgiveness of sin. [SPEAKER_04]: But he guides us to say confess to others and what's the word towards healing? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So I mean, Eric, what you're telling us is like the Bible's real.

12:58 [SPEAKER_04]: And that when people follow it, there's a lightness and a hope and a joy. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh, like yes, you couldn't agree more. [SPEAKER_04]: But the question which I really appreciate is how do we [SPEAKER_04]: begin to model that with our friends. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to just say something really brief and then Justin, go off on something brilliant, please.

13:17 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's the very simple thing is having a conversation. [SPEAKER_04]: I would start with somebody that you're already close to. [SPEAKER_04]: I think if you have a new buddy, me, like, hey, do you want to like tell each other all the darkest secrets? [SPEAKER_04]: I think it could come off weird.

13:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I think starting with a relationship and a friendship that you have and then taking into the next level, I'm thinking to my friend [SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to remember the time. [SPEAKER_04]: I think we had just talked about it. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, dude, it'd be so helpful. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, can I just like tell you, like, set up a monthly, almost, like, confessional time, where we just listen to one another?

13:51 [SPEAKER_04]: And I can't remember where I read it, but it's such a helpful visual. [SPEAKER_04]: And when we confess to our friends, when we confess to those that love us and are not into shame us, into make us feel bad for a fault, and really just there to listen empathetically kindly with Jesus. [SPEAKER_04]: It's, I think it's Richard Foster who says this.

14:15 [SPEAKER_04]: That person almost becomes Jesus to us. [SPEAKER_04]: Now I want to be really careful with how I say this because this confused people. [SPEAKER_04]: The idea is like, we can say on behalf of Jesus and myself, we forgive you, I forgive you. [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's perfectly put. [SPEAKER_04]: And I remember, oh, I do remember, I was, I went over to my buddy's house.

14:37 [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't have kids yet and we were at his apartment. [SPEAKER_04]: And I remember sharing something, some stuff with him that I just been on my heart that I hadn't shared. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I can't even remember what all the details of what it was. [SPEAKER_04]: But it was a safe place and he listened and he was empathetic and he was kind and not judgmental, not shaming and then he prayed for me.

15:01 [SPEAKER_04]: And it was so magical and healing. [SPEAKER_04]: So I think as far as how it started, it was like, I had some stuff on my chest. [SPEAKER_04]: And he was probably the only person that I was at that moment as a friend as a man that I could share it with. [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where it started for us.

15:16 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think maybe that's part of the start. [SPEAKER_04]: But what are your thoughts? [SPEAKER_06]: I feel compelled to remind everybody why it's so important before I talk about the practicals. [SPEAKER_06]: Confession is so deeply biblical. [SPEAKER_06]: So you can think about high liturgical churches, Catholic, England, Orthodox churches that practice rights of confession, rituals, confession.

15:42 [SPEAKER_06]: If you're not a part of those religious traditions, you should still be practicing confession. [SPEAKER_06]: Whether it's to a friend or to a pastor, because so many biblical things are happening one, think about a vision, you know, do not live in darkness, your children are the light that deeds of darkness thrive in the dark.

16:01 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: When you confess, you are doing something incredible and saying, I'm not going to live alone. [SPEAKER_06]: People are going to see into my life. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: You're also [SPEAKER_06]: bonding. [SPEAKER_06]: It is incredibly helpful to know actually what other people are struggling with, not theoretically.

16:19 [SPEAKER_06]: So so many of us say, you know, you know, marriage has been tough recently. [SPEAKER_06]: But when you say someone through a dish last night or you say, and I started texting a co-worker. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, we talked about this, right? [SPEAKER_06]: In the season one. [SPEAKER_06]: What you are being honest about your actual sin and guess what you thought of the sign of weakness Other people think it's a sign of courageous honesty that we can actually be truthful with each other and suddenly Your bonded together is centers who need [SPEAKER_04]: the grace of a Savior.

16:49 [SPEAKER_06]: And you're not focused on other people's performance. [SPEAKER_06]: And one of the people doing, you're actually realizing, oh, we need, we need grace. [SPEAKER_06]: And that is the beautiful thing you just mentioned it. [SPEAKER_06]: We do, we are Christ to each other in a real and profound, not full, [SPEAKER_06]: You're loved, even though you're still in sin right now, let me reinstate you to forgiveness to say those words every other Bonhoeffer is one of my favorite quotes to the words of Christ or Trueer in the mouth of my brother.

17:20 [SPEAKER_06]: I love that when we say the scriptures back to our friends, it's only, we can read it all day, but when they say it to us, you are forgiven. [SPEAKER_06]: you know, go in peace. [SPEAKER_06]: There's a real priesthood of believers role there where we are reinstating people in the love of Christ.

17:37 [SPEAKER_06]: So so many biblical things happening. [SPEAKER_06]: So if you're listening to this and you're keeping secrets, you must, you must, you must go confess and it's going to be so good for you. [SPEAKER_06]: Here are the three ways I recommend doing it. [SPEAKER_04]: First, try [SPEAKER_06]: a small confession with somebody you think you can trust because a lot of people, you have something major and it might not be wise or prudent just to go telling the world about it.

18:04 [SPEAKER_06]: To try a small thing with someone you can trust and see how they hold that, you know, and I don't mean like test and interview them. [SPEAKER_06]: But I do think it's important to be careful with these deep dark broken places in our life. [SPEAKER_06]: So start a little small but then [SPEAKER_06]: If they hold it well, start being really honest and then get into a rhythm and this is the second thing.

18:27 [SPEAKER_06]: Friends and I have had great rhythms before where we just call each other once a week. [SPEAKER_06]: Very short call. [SPEAKER_06]: I share about this and made for people where we say, why do we call? [SPEAKER_06]: Because it's good for us to know what's going on. [SPEAKER_06]: I think to other slides, what's been burning you this week and we quickly say our burdens.

18:42 [SPEAKER_06]: It's like a 60-second or less confession. [SPEAKER_06]: And then the other person doesn't think of advice. [SPEAKER_06]: They don't do anything. [SPEAKER_06]: They just listen and they say Christ loves you, Christ is forgiven you. [SPEAKER_06]: And then they share what they've been burned with.

18:54 [SPEAKER_06]: And this has been like a two to three minute call. [SPEAKER_06]: That's like a little weekly practice of confession with another believer. [SPEAKER_06]: And let me be clear, there is a time to say brother, you've got to get help with that. [SPEAKER_06]: I'll go ahead. [SPEAKER_06]: You've got to get help with that pornography problem.

19:07 [SPEAKER_06]: You've got there's a real time for it calling each other out of sin. [SPEAKER_06]: But confession is just hearing. [SPEAKER_06]: And so in the whole of your Christian life, you're going to be rebuking people. [SPEAKER_06]: You need to stop. [SPEAKER_06]: You must stop. [SPEAKER_06]: Just note that's that's not what's happening just in confession and confession and confession you're just hearing them out And you're telling them what Christ tells us and that is that you can be fully known and fully loved at the same time you are forgiven We can deal in another question of how to review can call them out, but for the confession just getting that practice There's a right and wrong way to do that for sure.

19:41 [SPEAKER_06]: And the third way is, you know, maybe your church offers this if your pastor doesn't [SPEAKER_06]: Go assay I need to confess some stuff somebody could could you listen to me? [SPEAKER_06]: Sure that he would be so happy that you asked. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and if he doesn't you should leave that church Yeah, it was like I can't no, I'm not gonna be that.

20:01 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but in my past years if you're listening past years if you're listening Offer this oh, you know, so people they you know, they can call you and you can in the you'll hear them out [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and that's going to be tricky because depending upon your role as a pastor obviously you're not going to be given out your your number per se to everybody who might want to have that space, but I think there's a small collective group of people that that's good very good practice and God bless Eric and Nebraska for here and other people's [SPEAKER_06]: burdens and confessions.

20:31 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: What other question we got was it? [SPEAKER_04]: Was that where he was from? [SPEAKER_04]: I I'm a good good detail. [SPEAKER_04]: You took a note. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have my penobi wrote it. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so next one all this I think is gonna be fun [SPEAKER_03]: Hey bro, hey Justin, my name is Leandro, and I'm speaking from Sydney of Australia.

20:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah! [SPEAKER_03]: My question is in relation to authority and how to exercise that we are children in a godly way, even when things are very sour and challenging with our kids. [SPEAKER_03]: So for context, I have two girls. [SPEAKER_03]: The older has just turned five and the younger is two.

21:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's a very busy season in our household and lately I'm finding myself in a very challenging relationship with my five-year-old. [SPEAKER_03]: But she's going through a stage where she talks back, she ignores instructions, she attempts to hate me and my wife when things do not go her way.

21:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's very easy for me just to kind of lose my temper and is napping her when those things happen for you. [SPEAKER_03]: And as she grows up, these moments are annoyingly becoming more and more often. [SPEAKER_03]: So if you're really bad after having snapped at her, because I know that not how God would discipline me as his son, but I'm also conscious that her behavior is also not acceptable.

21:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So how would then I would impose authority with my children in a way that is still caring and still loving, but at the same time in a way that the child will understand and respond in obedience. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks guys. [SPEAKER_03]: Leandro from Australia, we made it to Sydney. [SPEAKER_06]: That's amazing.

22:02 [SPEAKER_06]: Also, there's so much I want to know about that accent. [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there's more than just Australia going on there. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different question, but it's sent it in as a form of a statement, like give us this information. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we're going to hear more, Leandro.

22:16 [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I really like this question. [SPEAKER_06]: Do you mind if I go first? [SPEAKER_04]: Please do. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so I love it too. [SPEAKER_06]: I get asked a form of this so often and I'm asking a form of this so often in my own parenting and that is how do I parent out of authority with love?

22:33 [SPEAKER_06]: Because so often when we realize something's going on that we need to stop or someone's misbehaving and it's increasing and it's getting worse, the authority comes from anger from control, from stress and not from love. [SPEAKER_06]: And we intuit that we want to be gentle, we want to love, we want to be patient with our children, but certainly that can't mean letting this happen, right?

23:00 [SPEAKER_06]: And no, of course it doesn't. [SPEAKER_06]: So I really think it's a great question of parenting. [SPEAKER_06]: How do we be loving authority? [SPEAKER_06]: Not just a [SPEAKER_06]: think that you cannot do this, you cannot start this without prayer and the spirit being a real part of your parenting.

23:23 [SPEAKER_06]: And it sounds so, no, it doesn't. [SPEAKER_04]: It's so beautiful. [SPEAKER_04]: But it's so good. [SPEAKER_04]: We don't do it. [SPEAKER_04]: So, talk about it. [SPEAKER_06]: for so much of my parenting life, it didn't seem possible to pray in moments of discipline, but I can see two really clear interactions with my kids, the times when I pray, and the times when I don't.

23:44 [SPEAKER_06]: There are times when I discipline without prayer and there are times when I don't and then they are remarkably different. [SPEAKER_06]: So when I interrupt, when I pause to pray before I go into a moment of discipline, we've talked about this in season one, it is just categorically different because I am pausing on purpose to say Lord, if I go into this situation alone, I'm going to be after control, [SPEAKER_06]: Like a kind of domination, like let me, let me get in charge here.

24:17 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And that's not what they need. [SPEAKER_06]: They need, they need loving authority. [SPEAKER_06]: So praying is really, really important. [SPEAKER_06]: And that just looks like asking for help, usually on the way. [SPEAKER_06]: I usually just say Lord help. [SPEAKER_06]: Lord help.

24:30 [SPEAKER_04]: Help me pause prayers, you call. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, call and pause prayers. [SPEAKER_06]: And I say, Lord help, help me be more like you than me in this moment. [SPEAKER_06]: And then a second thing that has really helped me is just being as embodied as possible. [SPEAKER_06]: What does that mean?

24:43 [SPEAKER_06]: Which means? [SPEAKER_06]: a two-year-old doesn't understand a lot of the words you're saying so you can say things like I've told you this over and over a five-year-old doesn't understand a lot of the words you're saying as six-year-old is like as it turns out there's a long process of development and brain development and I think me and many others want to explain to our kids all the things that we've told them before and so I tell you this all the time and we and I was doing this this weekend with my six-year-old saying I tell [SPEAKER_06]: And part of the story, we do need to repeat and words are amazingly powerful and we need to parent the frontal lobe, but we also need to parent the lower brain.

25:25 [SPEAKER_06]: And when you're talking tantrums, when you're talking hitting, when you're talking the kinds of things that landers struggling with, you really do need to get embodied. [SPEAKER_06]: And that also might need, mean you need to get help. [SPEAKER_06]: The whole brain to child was a super helpful book for me to read.

25:39 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: There are problems in the line of thinking, but there's also a lot of really good things about thinking what's happening in your child right now, whether it's as simple as are they just tired hungry sick yes that might mean that now's not the right time to discipline now's the time to remove them and get them some food or nap, but I think about hugs I think about sitting next to each other I think about a lot of bodily touching is gentlest possible as you are maybe still restraining a child from hitting or misbehaving food.

26:10 [SPEAKER_06]: And I can't, I can't prescribe it's actually what to do here, but I just want to encourage Leandro and other people to be praying before and during your moments of discipline and also to get embodied because otherwise, at least as like me, I'm probably just going to yell and repeat and get angry and shame, but getting embodied helps you communicate that you love even while you're saying maybe physically.

26:33 [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to move you to a different room because you're not working here and you can be authoritative while being gentle. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, but you've got to be [SPEAKER_04]: I love that two things coming to mind. [SPEAKER_04]: The first, you know, Leandro, you said a phrase that is telling because I struggle with the same thing.

26:49 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's her behavior is not acceptable. [SPEAKER_04]: And I would say, [SPEAKER_04]: I totally agree, and I also would encourage you to question where does that come from for you. [SPEAKER_04]: And the reason I say that is because a lot of the times, our kids, what we would deem disrespect, what we would deem chaotic tantrum could also, and it is also a part of their development.

27:16 [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I'm saying this because I have, I have neurotypical and neurodeversion kids. [SPEAKER_04]: So I have had to go through whole classes. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, last time you were, we recorded this season. [SPEAKER_04]: I was in the throws of an eight week crash course on anxiety and different stuff for remember that I had to get a glass of that.

27:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's just a classic thing because anyway, we've had to learn so much about this. [SPEAKER_04]: So when you say the behavior like it's not acceptable, I would say, I know what you mean by that. [SPEAKER_04]: I would also say, take a second to say, OK. [SPEAKER_04]: is this behavior unacceptable because my wife and I say it's unacceptable or is it unacceptable because this is the culture I'm from?

27:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Is it actually unacceptable or is it that it makes you uncomfortable? [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm saying identify this, not to give permission in any way to your kids being crazy and disrespectful. [SPEAKER_04]: But a lot of those things sometimes are just the pre-wrote things that are [SPEAKER_04]: That's a terrible like evaluate it.

28:21 [SPEAKER_04]: So I've had it with my parenting go like, huh, I remember the first time I saw one of my daughters who's very passionate throwing a massive temper tantrum and what it brought up in me, I was like angry in the same deal, Leandro, man, I hear you. [SPEAKER_04]: I was angry, I was frustrated and I wanted to just squash the behavior I want to be like stop.

28:42 [SPEAKER_04]: No, quit it. [SPEAKER_04]: And the spirit was so gentle in that moment to reveal something that she was bringing out something in me. [SPEAKER_04]: Now, she was having a temper tantrum because she was three. [SPEAKER_04]: She didn't get something she wanted and she was very vocal about that.

28:57 [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, very common for three year olds. [SPEAKER_04]: Five year olds. [SPEAKER_04]: I want to be clear. [SPEAKER_04]: Even for five year olds. [SPEAKER_04]: Even for six year olds. [SPEAKER_04]: So it was a very normal response. [SPEAKER_04]: And our job is to say essentially not this way, but this way, right?

29:10 [SPEAKER_04]: That's one of the ways I'm going to talk about that in a second, but I'll never forget the time that the spirit revealed to me. [SPEAKER_04]: What I was so sad about and mad about when I was watching her throw a tantrum, tantrum, was that I was never safe enough to do the same thing. [SPEAKER_04]: That what was going on is, I wasn't allowed to throw tantrums.

29:29 [SPEAKER_04]: I was squashed so quickly in any way necessary to get me to stop. [SPEAKER_04]: that she felt safe enough to have this big emotion and not be scared for her well-being, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I'm saying all this to just say, every story's nuanced, every kid's nuance, every family's nuance.

29:49 [SPEAKER_04]: So I would say, start with evaluating. [SPEAKER_04]: Where's that from? [SPEAKER_04]: Is that from you and your wife? [SPEAKER_04]: No, you might just say, like, this is just unacceptable behavior. [SPEAKER_04]: We don't hit humans, right? [SPEAKER_04]: That's good enough, right? [SPEAKER_04]: But just as a backstory, the thing I just want to highlight is kindness and firmness.

30:04 [SPEAKER_04]: Roman talks about this, let the simultaneous kindness and strict judgment of God guide you. [SPEAKER_04]: The idea being that the way God disciplines us is with kindness and firmness. [SPEAKER_04]: He is very firm, but he does it in the most kind, loving way. [SPEAKER_04]: So as is just a maybe a script to give you the endro.

30:21 [SPEAKER_04]: If this were my daughter, and I don't do this right by the way, a lot of the time. [SPEAKER_04]: I try, I have the script, I don't give you the script. [SPEAKER_04]: The script would be something like this. [SPEAKER_04]: If she's hitting you, [SPEAKER_04]: very calmly, you know, especially if there's a physical, if she's just hitting, I would literally just hold her hands, calmly, there's a physicality piece.

30:38 [SPEAKER_04]: And this is when I'm in my right state of mind, everything's calm. [SPEAKER_04]: When we can be kind, you have a moment of pause prayer. [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, sweetheart, see you're angry, see you're mad, but we don't hit people. [SPEAKER_04]: That's not what we do in this home, so please stop hitting me.

30:50 [SPEAKER_04]: And if you don't stop, there's going to be a consequence. [SPEAKER_04]: Let her hands go. [SPEAKER_04]: She keeps hitting you. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay sweetheart. [SPEAKER_04]: I've said this. [SPEAKER_04]: I've told you this. [SPEAKER_04]: I want you to know, I do care for you very much. [SPEAKER_04]: I love you, but I've told you that if you do hit me again, I'm going to, you know, XYZ.

31:04 [SPEAKER_04]: And then you simply need to, if she does it again, you need to just follow through. [SPEAKER_04]: You need to follow through on the thing that you said. [SPEAKER_04]: But without anger, without elevating, without judgment, there's a kindness, like, you can say whatever you need to your kids and you can do it in a kind way.

31:18 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, with my son, this is massively important. [SPEAKER_04]: When he's 16 now and he's drives and he has a job and he has a girlfriend. [SPEAKER_04]: He's like very close. [SPEAKER_04]: He's, we're having a lot of man conversations. [SPEAKER_04]: That's awesome. [SPEAKER_04]: It's really fun.

31:30 [SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it's fun. [SPEAKER_04]: He drove me to the airport for this trip. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, son, can you drive me? [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, can I use your car? [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, yeah, I'm going to drive. [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he picked me up from the airport in Oregon when I came to this restaurant with you.

31:40 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So it's interesting because with him, if I am, uh, if I am firm and not kind, he's just like stonewalls, just face blanked, tunes me out. [SPEAKER_04]: But the moment I can say the hard thing in a kind way, like, hey, son, I see that that's really a bummer, but man, you know, we don't talk to your mom that way.

32:00 [SPEAKER_04]: She's asked you to do this talk. [SPEAKER_04]: You just do it without complaining. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, it gets through, yeah, you're right down. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, almost every time. [SPEAKER_04]: It's just so, again, I want to highlight like it's so hard to respond to these questions and in, you know, actuality, because they're also nuanced.

32:19 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think practically what you had just stated about being embodied pause prayers, I think kindness and firmness. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think again, the one evaluation about like knowing where does that come from. [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's just important because a lot of the times we superimpose ideals or take them from a past or from an unthought through place.

32:38 [SPEAKER_04]: I can't tell you how many things are my parenting. [SPEAKER_04]: I've had to rethink because upon parenting or doing them, I've been like, [SPEAKER_04]: Do I even care about that? [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if I do. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's discovering like is that a conviction of the spirit?

32:52 [SPEAKER_04]: Or is that just a hand handed down generational type thing anyway? [SPEAKER_06]: I have one counter example because I think this is so nuanced. [SPEAKER_06]: It's helpful to give lots of viewpoints [SPEAKER_06]: And you can disagree. [SPEAKER_06]: If, please, no, I don't. [SPEAKER_06]: I don't.

33:04 [SPEAKER_06]: I just know that both of the examples we gave are kind of in the realm of start, loving and kind and move towards authority, which I think is often good because what happens when we're stressed out or we see a tantrum is often we just want the Andrew shared. [SPEAKER_06]: We just start squashes yelling or we get angry and so I also think I just want to say [SPEAKER_06]: I talk about pause prayers and getting in body and really support what you said about figure out what's actually going on because there might be something else going on, but I've support all that so much because I'm so prone to snapping, okay?

33:42 [SPEAKER_06]: And so I think it's important to interrupt that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But let's put that aside for a second. [SPEAKER_06]: There's also the other side of my parenting, which actually happens a lot, and I think is good and healthy, which is beginning with firm authority, and then moving towards gentleness and love.

33:59 [SPEAKER_06]: And particularly for the young boys that I have, and I think this is probably true for a lot of young boys. [SPEAKER_06]: So you gotta be the student of your child, a boy or girl, you figure out what situation they're in, but I'll, [SPEAKER_06]: be probably to what is the experience of a lot of parents with young boys.

34:19 [SPEAKER_06]: And that is they need firm authority young. [SPEAKER_06]: My dad used the analogy and I love it. [SPEAKER_06]: You got to set the hook to catch a fish. [SPEAKER_06]: And then you got to let out the drag so they don't break the line, which means up front you're very firm. [SPEAKER_06]: And then you start to let out the drag to remind them that, you know, they are actually an autonomous human being with free will.

34:41 [SPEAKER_06]: This is over the age as in stages, right? [SPEAKER_06]: But it's also helpful in a moment. [SPEAKER_06]: So if my son is hitting me or yelling at me or doing a temporary, temporary transform, [SPEAKER_06]: I am probably not going to start in a kind voice. [SPEAKER_06]: I am probably going to say something like son.

34:56 [SPEAKER_06]: No, you stop that right now. [SPEAKER_06]: Give me your eyes. [SPEAKER_06]: Look at me. [SPEAKER_06]: That's enough. [SPEAKER_06]: You know better than that. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, those kinds of words and things. [SPEAKER_06]: And part of that is because if I'm like, hey, buddy, you know, he doesn't hear me.

35:09 [SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't hear me. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: And if he's hitting somebody else or hitting me, my hands are going to be on him very quick, you know, saying we're moving you to a different room, you're going to stop that, but I just getting their attention with authority letting them know that they are not in charge.

35:26 [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_06]: There's an authority called a parent here that in I am in charge, actually, tone and embodiment helps that, but then, and here's the important part, because I think so many angry dads leave this out, yes, then it's just, you know, leave them there, you know, time out out of here, you're done, get out of the store, go waiting the car, you're throwing a time.

35:47 [SPEAKER_06]: No, if I can't very quickly move from that authority to laughing with my child, tickling my child, reinstating my child, praying with my child, being gentle with my child, like so I'm immediately thinking, okay, not repair. [SPEAKER_06]: Repair. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, and hopefully I didn't do anything wrong.

36:05 [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes I have sometimes I was too rough to mean We were maybe restore you're not repairing as much as you're restoring relations restoring is good But sometimes I do need to repair both. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean yes, I knew once if you've overstepped you need to Replace weekend. [SPEAKER_06]: I came down too hard on my 11 year old and I could see that you crushed he was crying Yeah, and I was like that was too hard.

36:23 [SPEAKER_06]: He didn't understand my instruction [SPEAKER_06]: I thought he was deliberately disobeying my structure and when I realized it was my mistake not his. [SPEAKER_06]: I had to say sorry for my disappointment. [SPEAKER_06]: So sometimes I'm repairing but like always we're restoring and that is then being gentle then being embodied and touching being kind and reconciling because that's Christ's movement towards us.

36:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: It is. [SPEAKER_04]: And I couldn't agree more just great, great new ones, great example. [SPEAKER_04]: And last thing on this and the answer to thank you for your question is, we could do a season on this question. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're really good. [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean true, true.

37:02 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's not a place of strength for either of us. [SPEAKER_04]: So I do want to say, meaning like, we are practicing, but it is not come natural. [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I mean. [SPEAKER_04]: I fail. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I fail. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: We are still, you know, one step forward, two steps back.

37:16 [SPEAKER_04]: I want to say though, for the emerging world of neurodiverse kids, it's a different set of rules. [SPEAKER_04]: So what you said, just to double down on that, double click on it, you specifically have to study your kids. [SPEAKER_06]: I can't not agree more. [SPEAKER_06]: Be a student of your child.

37:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because if I had the same tactics with my sweet birdie as I do with my son or my daughter Scarlett, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my goodness, it would crush her soul. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Could deal. [SPEAKER_04]: She has to have a whole different set of goals. [SPEAKER_04]: I can barely, and her responses are bigger and different.

37:54 [SPEAKER_04]: And I only need to say a little for it to go so far. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it is of hyper importance that you understand your child. [SPEAKER_04]: And therefore, I would just say for those listening who have, [SPEAKER_04]: maybe neurotypical and neurodiverse kids. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a different set of rules which makes it more complex.

38:10 [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're like, this is incredible. [SPEAKER_04]: This doesn't feel fair. [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to the club. [SPEAKER_04]: I understand more than you know. [SPEAKER_04]: And we have a behavioral therapist. [SPEAKER_04]: Elizabeth and I do this for a living. [SPEAKER_04]: And we ourselves have a behavioral therapist that we pay for that is not cheap, by the way.

38:25 [SPEAKER_04]: We don't go on vacations. [SPEAKER_04]: We pay for therapy. [SPEAKER_04]: God bless you. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and she comes to our house, you know, in the up until now, like once a week and now it's like every other week. [SPEAKER_04]: To teach us how to discipline practically the neurodiversity in our home.

38:41 [SPEAKER_06]: That's really helpful though. [SPEAKER_04]: And, and it's amazing to me, and she's not a believer. [SPEAKER_04]: And she's doing it from a completely like a place of psychology and understanding the brain and how kids work. [SPEAKER_04]: We apply our own spirituality to it. [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean, maybe for some of that's what you have to do.

38:57 [SPEAKER_04]: You have to learn, like we didn't have these tools. [SPEAKER_04]: We're like, we don't know what it was supposed to do. [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, that would be my response. [SPEAKER_04]: That's our response to that one. [SPEAKER_04]: Leandro from a Sydney. [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Leandro.

39:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_04]: What's our next one? [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, dude. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm, let's see here. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see what this one is. [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, boys, how you doing? [SPEAKER_07]: John Doe here from county for mana in Northern Ireland. [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, sure.

39:20 [SPEAKER_07]: Just a quick voice note to give your intentional fatherhood podcast, quick written review and leave you guys with a quick question. [SPEAKER_07]: I think you're teeth into as well. [SPEAKER_07]: Firstly, in terms of a review, I'm sorry to say it's going to have to be a one star written guy for no other reason really than Justin said that the one star reviews are at his favorite.

39:37 [SPEAKER_07]: So, for [SPEAKER_07]: to be fair the the man who didn't really kill me as I've been listening to this podcast out in menorca and spin on a family holiday. [SPEAKER_07]: I've been doing some 10k runs and it's been a bit of a heat we have to be honest so it was out. [SPEAKER_07]: Listen to that one on boardly discipline in which you say it about just keep going and just keep pick it up pick it up.

39:54 [SPEAKER_07]: So I did naturally did pick it up and pushed harder and to be honest I nearly had a cardiac arrest. [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, by the end, but so, sorry, one start review from me. [SPEAKER_07]: But no one serious note, I can't thank you boys enough for what you've got tonight into the public sphere.

40:05 [SPEAKER_07]: And then the conversations you're having around intentional fatherhood, so important in this cultural moment that we're living in, and I've been truly blessed by listening. [SPEAKER_07]: And in terms of a question, in our church, we've recently been thinking about the legacy that we as Christian fathers have been left with.

40:20 [SPEAKER_07]: by our own father figures and in turn what we want to pass on to our own children. [SPEAKER_07]: So the question I have for you two boys is what would be the top three legacies that you would both like to pass on to your children and how do you see that pan and out in your everyday parenthood?

40:37 [SPEAKER_07]: So I'll let you think about that one. [SPEAKER_07]: But no thanks again boys, a big love here from Northern Ireland, keep up the good work, bless your brothers and if you ever fancy a wee trip out here to the Emeraldive, just get in touch would love to have you. [SPEAKER_07]: Alright, go bless.

40:49 [SPEAKER_04]: We do want to we trip to the Emerald Islands. [SPEAKER_04]: I do fancy a weed trip. [SPEAKER_04]: Where was it? [SPEAKER_04]: The Emerald Isles. [SPEAKER_04]: He's in Ireland. [SPEAKER_04]: John toe. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_04]: You need to I don't know what your career is but get in radio.

41:03 [SPEAKER_06]: That's an amazing voice. [SPEAKER_04]: What an amazing voice. [SPEAKER_06]: We're real quick for the Americans. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: That pack it up was pick it up. [SPEAKER_06]: Not pick it up pick it up pick it up pick it up pick it up pick it up pick it up. [SPEAKER_04]: uh, John to the thank you for your question.

41:21 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad you did. [SPEAKER_04]: I hope you didn't get heat stroke. [SPEAKER_04]: And if you did, uh, we apologize. [SPEAKER_04]: And please. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Justin was. [SPEAKER_04]: He likes one star reviews on his books. [SPEAKER_04]: Not on his podcast. [SPEAKER_04]: That's what we'll say.

41:31 [SPEAKER_04]: And I like this. [SPEAKER_04]: I like this. [SPEAKER_04]: This is good. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, actually, you know, so John to I want to be really honest with you. [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, season two is around the corner. [SPEAKER_04]: We're so excited. [SPEAKER_04]: And honestly, what I'll say is, I think the best way to respond to your question is to simply be honest that we have a lot of content coming for that.

41:56 [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that it will hopefully just wet everyone's appetite to just, you know, kind of wait for season two. [SPEAKER_04]: And I want to respond to it so bad, but I can't without basically already giving away some of the stuff that we're praying through and thinking through. [SPEAKER_06]: So it is mean, but kind of fun.

42:12 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: We're literally saying incredible question. [SPEAKER_06]: We are going, no, maybe you know, maybe we're dignifying this. [SPEAKER_06]: John, your question is so good. [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to do a whole season on. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we're doing a whole episode of these two on that.

42:25 [SPEAKER_04]: So you actually hit the nail in the head, the top three. [SPEAKER_04]: We will address that in season two. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that, oh, man, I just, well, we do fancy. [SPEAKER_04]: We trip. [SPEAKER_04]: I fancy, yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: All right. [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to talk about legacy legacy in season two.

42:39 [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's do, let's see how we trip. [SPEAKER_06]: Give us another question. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're going to do, let's, we're going to do one more for today. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try to find what I'm thinking is, if we can do a quick one. [SPEAKER_04]: Who knows if that's even real.

42:53 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's try this one. [SPEAKER_06]: You see Brooke has heard your questions. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, not all of them. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm hearing them for the first time. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, some of these you haven't heard. [SPEAKER_04]: No, some of these I haven't. [SPEAKER_04]: There was too many to it.

43:01 [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't been able to listen. [SPEAKER_06]: What a great problem. [SPEAKER_04]: I know where it's a great problem, but I mean, it's kind of fun together. [SPEAKER_04]: You have truly not heard me. [SPEAKER_04]: I heard John toes because someone our team sent it and I was like, this is incredible.

43:12 [SPEAKER_04]: I love every second of this. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's pick one, here we go, here it goes. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, this is David from Orlando, Florida, and I did a curious in your framework. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't put vocational work intention with current family time. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like most of them in that I know the resource that they are lacking the most is time.

43:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Some curious for someone, especially like you Justin, who has a professional practice, you're writing, speaking, doing this podcast now, every [SPEAKER_00]: act of advancing your vocation. [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, it seems to be directly in competition, in a zero-sum game of time with your family.

43:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm curious, how do you process living into your calling, being all that you can be in the world for sake of others, for the good, and glory of God, with just being home a little bit more often, for a few more dinners, for coaching [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, doing that work of just being present with your kids versus available for what God has called you to do.

44:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to hear you wrestle with that and get some guidance to all of us dads who are just working off 168 hours a week. [SPEAKER_04]: Wow. [SPEAKER_04]: There's a great question, David, Orlando, Florida. [SPEAKER_04]: That's, I mean, that's a, there's a lot to that question, obviously, but I think there's some practical stuff.

44:40 [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to have to wrestle in real time with that. [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, so David love it, the answer is really going to have to be listener dependent okay so I want to first talk to the person who knows they are working too much and say. [SPEAKER_06]: you are going to be less happy and your family is going to be in great dire need.

45:12 [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't stop, you've got to figure out how to put boundaries around your vocation. [SPEAKER_06]: And I can say that very clearly because this was me. [SPEAKER_06]: This has been my struggle. [SPEAKER_06]: to let work overflow the banks of its river to the violent damage and destruction of what it was supposed to give life to, okay?

45:33 [SPEAKER_06]: So if a river is working properly, it's giving life to the village on its banks and the crops and everything, but when the river overflows its banks, that good thing comes a very dangerous thing, and vocation is very, very similar. [SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have boundaries for it, [SPEAKER_06]: Then it will be very dangerous to you and I've talked a lot about my boundaries in season one But to just summarize them like in the frame of the day.

45:57 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm gonna be looking at scripture before I look at emails It's a very important first boundary. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to be time-bounding my work I'm gonna get the boys out to school by 8 a.m [SPEAKER_06]: Before I start work on a normal day and there are abnormal ones there are seasons that are a little bit different because life is not so tidy all the time, but on a normal day you're normal.

46:30 [SPEAKER_06]: is those are incredibly important banks. [SPEAKER_06]: I'm generally not going to be picking up my phone and be spending an hour off of it at least with it actually off and then generally I'm not going to be huh, I wonder what my work emails are right now at nine o'clock. [SPEAKER_06]: No, I'm going to say that can wait until next 8 a.m.

46:46 [SPEAKER_06]: So there's just specific times that I'm going to be home and present in my family and we talked about this but there's a lot there's a lot a lot a lot you can still do. [SPEAKER_06]: in the hours of nine to five or eight to six or something like that. [SPEAKER_06]: So you've just got to figure out how to put boundaries on it.

47:02 [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't mean that abstractly. [SPEAKER_06]: So let me just say to you, you have to actually do something. [SPEAKER_06]: You have to ask for help from a friend, your wife or you have to talk to your manager. [SPEAKER_06]: You, you have to actually put the time boundaries on it. [SPEAKER_06]: Otherwise, just theoretically thinking about boundaries is just not going to cut accountability.

47:19 [SPEAKER_06]: You need habit change. [SPEAKER_06]: You need accountability in your habits. [SPEAKER_06]: But I want to speak to the opposite [SPEAKER_06]: I know probably more friends now who are struggling with guilt over not being home more. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, instead of, yes, like a sense of dignity and worth and righteousness about the great work that they are doing.

47:42 [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, and so if you know that you work too much, take everything, I just said, okay. [SPEAKER_06]: But let me also say, the [SPEAKER_06]: more is asked of a husband and father right now, then then I've ever seen in our previous generation. [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. [SPEAKER_06]: So yes, I don't know.

47:59 [SPEAKER_06]: So we're, we're talking about it. [SPEAKER_06]: We're still us thrive at work. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: We're supposed to also know how to make the kids lunches and change the diapers and put them to bed and help with sleep training and be awake during the night. [SPEAKER_06]: And and a man we should like they are children.

48:14 [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: But if you think that you can do all of these things [SPEAKER_06]: all of the way, you're going to quickly realize that you're a fragmented limited human being. [SPEAKER_06]: And by the way, a lot of the specialist coming because now both spouses often feel like they ought to work or maybe both spouses feel like they have to work because of economic pressures.

48:32 [SPEAKER_06]: And so you look a lot of that is asked of you. [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't want to do a lot of cultural analysis about this. [SPEAKER_06]: This is good and why is this? [SPEAKER_06]: I just want to name that a ton [SPEAKER_06]: is asked of young fathers right now. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And you've got to be honest about your limitations.

48:48 [SPEAKER_06]: If you're the primary breadwinner, then it is good for you to go focus on that and work really hard at it for about eight hours a day, maybe at least to maybe eight nine or 10, probably no more than 10. [SPEAKER_06]: After that, you get diminishing returns on your productivity and your [SPEAKER_06]: you should feel really good about that like you shouldn't feel bad that you are away from your house you know eight or nine hours a day that's your job yes also that's really good for you also it's really great to provide for your family to be working hard it's really great for your kids to be seeing you working my kids know that I work they know that I work hard they know that I work a lot and I think that's a gift to them mm-hmm

49:28 [SPEAKER_06]: now that I've gotten my boundaries in place. [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. [SPEAKER_06]: So, and for the wives, you know, listening, probably some of the wives listening are thinking their husbands are working too much. [SPEAKER_06]: And you might be right, might be the first kind of described, or it might be that this is what it feels like to try to support the family at this stage that there's never enough time.

49:47 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: But look, nobody is made without limits. [SPEAKER_06]: You can't do it all. [SPEAKER_06]: You can't have it all. [SPEAKER_06]: You're going to have to make compromises. [SPEAKER_06]: And somebody's going to have to stay at home a little more or do do this or that a little more.

49:56 [SPEAKER_06]: So don't always feel guilty. [SPEAKER_04]: That's so. [SPEAKER_06]: You need to be out there working and working hard. [SPEAKER_04]: And I want to maybe just new ones that last year because I'm all hard on that one. [SPEAKER_04]: And you did to go hard, you're I think that no new ones, I'm not even talking about what you said.

50:11 [SPEAKER_04]: I agree with what you said. [SPEAKER_04]: I think there's so much asked of young fathers. [SPEAKER_04]: It's good to name that. [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't want at the same time let the sisters listening or the wives listening think like we're saying, ladies, do more so we can that's not we're saying we're saying that what what I think is maybe another [SPEAKER_04]: You know, when you go to the optometrist, you had lends after lends, so things can clear.

50:31 [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to add another letter. [SPEAKER_04]: That's good. [SPEAKER_04]: I like that a lot. [SPEAKER_04]: So the next layer of glass is to also say, this comes into, I mean, it's a simple question with a complex response. [SPEAKER_04]: It comes into your dynamic, like you said, where's your boundaries?

50:44 [SPEAKER_04]: Each person's different, each family's different, each need of each family is different. [SPEAKER_04]: If I didn't have some of the challenges of my own home, I would be able to work a lot more than I do, but because my wife's health, my kids health, I do, I I look at her, I look at my kids, I look at the situation and we have to talk about a lot of it and so it looks like [SPEAKER_04]: for this season right now.

51:08 [SPEAKER_04]: I am going to work from like eight to three or four and making them bonkers like it's every hour is stacked with something. [SPEAKER_04]: I do not have a free moment even to go to lunch. [SPEAKER_04]: Like I'd rather like steal from work, steal from home and me being able to come home at four for this season has been really helpful for Elizabeth for the second half of the day.

51:30 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's this season. [SPEAKER_04]: That's not all of our life, there's been many other seasons when she knows I'm going to be gone for 12 hours today. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm gone for a week at a time when a trip. [SPEAKER_04]: So my work is a little different, but we talk about all of it.

51:42 [SPEAKER_04]: What do you need this week? [SPEAKER_04]: I've got. [SPEAKER_04]: I can steal from work this week. [SPEAKER_04]: Is this a helpful time for that? [SPEAKER_04]: That'd be great. [SPEAKER_04]: Or you know what, actually, it's okay to work a little bit more. [SPEAKER_04]: So I check in with her, but if it comes to like, [SPEAKER_04]: She also knows, and I think this is where it's sisters, you can help your husband's a lot in this, is I'm going to give you as much as I can of my time, but I need you to understand there's going to be times when I just have to go heart and can we agree on this, do we agree on that now she also works with me, she works part time, but she works and so that means I have to be more open to the fact that we lead a ministry together.

52:19 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So there's times when I need to say, I'm taking three days off of my normal work to be with the kids. [SPEAKER_04]: So you can get away to write for stuff that you need to do. [SPEAKER_06]: That's unique. [SPEAKER_04]: So that's a unique deal for us. [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

52:30 [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're if you're a wife listening in your soul responsibility is the home and you're able to stay at home and that's a gift. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then I think you'll probably be home more because there's some, you know, there's trade-offs there. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I think the main thing I'm trying to say is figure out your family, your wife, [SPEAKER_04]: If you wife that are listening are being completely influenced by culture, social media, and maybe this idea that everything has to be 50-50, that is not wise.

52:57 [SPEAKER_04]: I think that if you just go off that assumption without looking at what's actually on the table, you're going to end up in being in bitter and one direction or the other. [SPEAKER_06]: That's a recipe for being in dignity. [SPEAKER_04]: From both sides. [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'm trying to say.

53:08 [SPEAKER_04]: Either side being resentful to the other. [SPEAKER_04]: I agree. [SPEAKER_04]: I think there was a generation where dudes did too little and then there's been a generation You know the pendulum always swings. [SPEAKER_04]: I think father's the main goal is to look at your wife and your kids and think How can I will their good?

53:24 [SPEAKER_04]: How can I will my wife's good? [SPEAKER_04]: Well that looks like she needs some help with this with my kids. [SPEAKER_04]: It looks like [SPEAKER_04]: I want to be consistent in their life these way. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I think that being a way is not actually bad I think you I could not agree more that your don't swing this pendulum so far to the other direction You being able to work hard and show your kids what it means to work hard has dividends for their entire future in their life So I I'd say I could not agree with you more that don't feel bad about working hard But feel bad about being a work of hollyk when your work becomes your life and your identity That's the problem

53:57 [SPEAKER_06]: And you can't know that without being in constant deep conversation with your wife. [SPEAKER_06]: So I feel compelled, because Lauren's going to listen to this. [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we have gone in and out of stages where I've worked too much. [SPEAKER_06]: And we've had a lot of fights about the right amount.

54:14 [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, so I know me speak from, oh, this is easy for us. [SPEAKER_06]: We figured out, we constantly trying to work on this. [SPEAKER_06]: And I think, you know, our struggle has been, we fight about this a lot, but I think what has been good about our marriages that we constantly talk about it.

54:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And I love how you said, Brooke, you need to be asking yourself, how can I serve my family? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_06]: And I would put another lens on that. [SPEAKER_06]: How can I sacrifice for my family? [SPEAKER_06]: So some I struggling with workaholism and your wife's going to know if you are.

54:43 [SPEAKER_06]: You need to be sacrificing your family by putting that idle on the altar and burning it, you know, put limits on it. [SPEAKER_06]: But somebody who really needs to get out there and grind more because you're not producing income your family needs or you're not setting the example your family should have or they're seeing a dad who, yeah, he's home a lot, but he's constantly and his phoneers constantly watching sports or he's not really helping out a house because he's playing video games upstairs.

55:07 [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, God forbid, like, [SPEAKER_06]: You can't be doing that, you know, you need to sacrifice your family, work hard, be present. [SPEAKER_06]: You won't know what any of these sacrifices are unless you're in constant deep communication with your spouse trying to figure it out. [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't agree more.

55:20 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you also need to it might be helpful. [SPEAKER_04]: We'll end here in just a second. [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's also as a spouse, wife and as a husband, naming what your family was, wife to you, was your family, the example where [SPEAKER_04]: if that's what you're used to, you're going to have one sort of paradigm.

55:42 [SPEAKER_04]: If you husband or listening and that was your paradigm and your wife isn't your mom and that isn't your dynamic and you're all up in arms like name the thing like you have a different set of expectations that were handed to you that need to be unread down and re-understood based upon who your wife is for your family is and that and that will lead to also I just want to say in [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm maybe another.

56:06 [SPEAKER_04]: You're almost. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm almost for it. [SPEAKER_04]: You're all right. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just, I'm so excited to get older. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, truly, it's in, in ministry type settings being older is just better. [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's just a better thing in some ways. [SPEAKER_04]: But I would say, it's also like I am in real time looking at my life and learning how to manage.

56:24 [SPEAKER_04]: So, so learning how to manage success. [SPEAKER_04]: That sounds like a weird phrase, but manage busyness. [SPEAKER_04]: Some people would say that being busy is success or it equates success. [SPEAKER_04]: I think we have to learn to manage what we have on our plate so I'm literally looking at my life now and saying I have a new set of things that are required of me right now Yeah, I have to travel a lot more have to think differently.

56:46 [SPEAKER_04]: I speak place like I'm always thinking of these other things that I'm doing and I have to be ready for it Therefore my life now with my family and my job has to be rethought so I'm in real time going. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, what are my yeses? [SPEAKER_04]: What are my what are the habits now that I need for the life that I actually have?

57:02 [SPEAKER_04]: in my work. [SPEAKER_04]: That's really good. [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm doing that real time like literally doing a whole industry for instance. [SPEAKER_04]: And like hey travel season's about to come up. [SPEAKER_04]: We just had this conversation Elizabeth and I two weeks ago. [SPEAKER_04]: Travel season's coming up fall.

57:13 [SPEAKER_04]: It gets super busy. [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: What are the rhythms I need when I leave before I leave and then re-entry? [SPEAKER_04]: What do you need upon leaving and re-entry? [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. [SPEAKER_04]: You know, anyway, so I think it's just, it changes all the time, the open to it, work hard, be kind in the process, wife if you're listening, your husband wants to do good, he doesn't always know how to, he wants to, you know, and and you know, husband listening, be gracious.

57:39 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot to be home with the kids all the time if that's the dynamic, my goodness, it's bless you mom, we love you mom, thank you for the wisdom that you give and that's not a passing like pat on the back like it is. [SPEAKER_04]: When I watch how much motherhood takes, man, I just can't even, I'm overwhelmed by it.

57:55 [SPEAKER_04]: And that's why, you know, Elizabeth, you know, she started intentional motherhood with her mom and speaking to this very problems, just like you are, you and I are speaking to fatherhood. [SPEAKER_04]: She's speaking to that. [SPEAKER_04]: So if your mom's listening, check that out. [SPEAKER_04]: That's a great resource, but.

58:10 [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, these are great questions. [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to do more. [SPEAKER_06]: Let's do more. [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, you want to do another episode of questions? [SPEAKER_04]: Let's do another episode of another episode. [SPEAKER_04]: But guys, thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: If you have more, send them in, but we love you all.

58:22 [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for these wonderful questions.