S3E1 - The Lie of “Just a Job” + Why Your Work Matters More Than You Think

0:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast, where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope.

0:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is season three, and if it feels weird. [SPEAKER_01]: It's because I'm introducing it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Justin early. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here with Brooke Moser. [SPEAKER_01]: He always introduces, was it weird or was it good?

0:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to clap. [SPEAKER_00]: That was great. [SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to figure out where you're going. [SPEAKER_00]: I did okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You did okay. [SPEAKER_00]: You're just and you're ready. [SPEAKER_00]: You have, you have, what's the word? [SPEAKER_00]: You have graduated to be able to do the introduction.

0:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to highlight. [SPEAKER_00]: The only reason I've ever did the introduction is it was just one less thing to think about. [SPEAKER_01]: It's because you like to take charge. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually, I'm a second-born child. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually okay with not, but the other whoever in charge has to have the better idea, that's what I've learned.

1:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, as long as they're wow, the stronger one that I'm fine to submit. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm pumped about, I'm pumped about introducing some episodes on this season because this season is feeling very near and dear to my heart. [SPEAKER_01]: We're here on Richmond, Virginia. [SPEAKER_00]: But you can't, you're already skipping.

1:16 [SPEAKER_00]: You forgot to tell them what to do. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we're going to tell them to like and subscribe and a sound. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I got it. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get to [SPEAKER_01]: But look, let me set the stage. [SPEAKER_01]: We're back in Richmond, Virginia. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we are.

1:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I owe you another one, because you came back to RVA. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually coming to Ben next time. [SPEAKER_01]: We're recording season three. [SPEAKER_01]: We're back in the basement of my law firm. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_01]: But everybody should be looking on YouTube here, because [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a camo shirt.

1:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying I can't even see you. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where you are. [SPEAKER_01]: You're in a great New York hat. [SPEAKER_00]: No, not yet home. [SPEAKER_00]: Also, if anyone knows those guys, would you let me know? [SPEAKER_00]: They got great stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: Not just home.

1:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not trying to rep them. [SPEAKER_00]: I just love what they do. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's Monday morning in the basement of the law firm, but I'm not upstairs working in my button up. [SPEAKER_01]: We're downstairs because we're going to be recording a season on work. [SPEAKER_01]: In the occasion.

2:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so pumped about it. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to want to tune into this whole thing. [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to want to follow this whole arc. [SPEAKER_01]: In a minute, we're going to connect for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Why this is connected to all our other seasons. [SPEAKER_01]: But look, you can't follow the whole arc.

2:21 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not subscribed. [SPEAKER_01]: There you go, baby. [SPEAKER_01]: You need to like and subscribe. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, because look, this is gonna, it gets other people to hear the podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This stream, you wanna be listening to this podcast with other people. [SPEAKER_01]: Preach.

2:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It also is gonna get you in the all the episodes. [SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot to say about work. [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna give you a big like theology of work and why fatherhood and worker certain, twine all the things. [SPEAKER_01]: But we need you to like and subscribe to do that, right?

2:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I missing anything? [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to miss one other detail? [SPEAKER_00]: Just the website questions, do you want me to do that part? [SPEAKER_00]: So intentionalfatherhood.org. [SPEAKER_00]: We have a website check all that out. [SPEAKER_00]: You might want to do that because we have some exciting events happening and coming up and also just want to say if you have questions one of the best ways to submit a question is to send a woman at voice memo with your name where you're from.

3:08 [SPEAKER_00]: and just email it to hello at intentionalfatherhood.org, and that again just helps us stay connected. [SPEAKER_00]: I know these little business details seem to be frustrating or repetitive, but it's because they're that important. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I can't believe we're in season three.

3:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when we started this whole thing, I just would have not expected the response for what God's been doing our first fatherhood retreat, which we got to, when we were in San Diego together, a few weeks back or a month or so ago, just processing together all that. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it was just it still is just an honor for every single man and now just an army of women their wives.

3:45 [SPEAKER_00]: We just literally got back yet. [SPEAKER_00]: I got here yesterday and I came from the intentional motherhood retreat that we did for all your ladies in Nashville. [SPEAKER_00]: My wife and I was there in her mother and law or my mother and law her mom. [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, it was like, I was telling you just, and it was like, it was a similar thing that happened at the father who betrayed was different, of course, because it was geared towards mothers and motherhood.

4:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But the same spirit, the same transformation, I mean, whatever God's doing right now is just an honor to be a part of, and so. [SPEAKER_00]: Justin and I are here to serve you in that journey, but I think it's also really important to note like we're going to have a lot of fun because I like fun.

4:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you like fun to love it. [SPEAKER_00]: You love it. [SPEAKER_01]: But it does feel like the Lord is doing something kind of bigger than our plans in this. [SPEAKER_01]: We just started this barely over a year ago. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it didn't even launch until the father's day. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

4:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And we just did our first retreat. [SPEAKER_01]: Three months ago now and both season one and season two and the intention of other who retreat feel like whoa, the Lord is working beyond us. [SPEAKER_01]: The Lord is doing something really incredible. [SPEAKER_01]: Agreed.

5:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm feeling in the arc. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we should get in the arc because yes, we kind of planned out season one not really knowing where any of this would go. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but it now it feels like both of us have been like oh my gosh I see where the Lord is going here.

5:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so why not sketch out for us where we were in season one and two and then I'll sketch out where we're going in season three and beyond [SPEAKER_00]: I love it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just like you said, I think it's, I love the divine nature, it feels so wonderful to be able to be responding to what God's doing and joining him in that good work.

5:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Which again, we're going to talk about. [SPEAKER_00]: But we originally, as you already know, then this is on intentional fatherhood.org, you can go check it out. [SPEAKER_00]: We just talked about the eight different tension points and of course, there's far more. [SPEAKER_00]: And of course there again is more, but I do think it encapsulated in a huge way encapsulated encapsulated encapsulated Incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated incapsulated

6:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's get a different one. [SPEAKER_00]: No, um, it just was the totality of what we could kind of some to say, this is the tension points. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's eight there. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and we went through each of those as like an episode in a topic. [SPEAKER_00]: And then season two was really setting up a lot of like, well, where are you at in your story?

6:27 [SPEAKER_00]: How to name that? [SPEAKER_00]: How to understand what you're doing in your life, but also what is happening in the different ages and stages that you are currently in [SPEAKER_00]: and we covered those three things of getting your life together, what does that look like? [SPEAKER_00]: How do you do that?

6:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Giving your life away, which is where a many are at in that mid-life, where you've gathered a lot of your life, learned a skill or a craft got married, have kids, but now you're giving your life away, truly, we feel that. [SPEAKER_00]: And then lastly, giving your death away. [SPEAKER_00]: And so we covered all of that and kind of through those setting up of those eight episodes of [SPEAKER_00]: what stage and helping you identify hopefully, what stage you're in, just and where do we sense the spirit wanted to take us for the next bit here?

7:13 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to deep dive because if season one is a map, [SPEAKER_01]: in season two, sort of like a story. [SPEAKER_01]: You now have a geographic framing in season one. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't listened to it, you really should. [SPEAKER_01]: You should go on the website. [SPEAKER_01]: You should look at the map of the tension points because we talked about things like spiritual disciplines and physical disciplines, two tension points of fatherhood.

7:36 [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about out of hiding into covenant friendship to tension points of fatherhood. [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about your family past, your family future, like as in where you came from, and what you're doing to your family. [SPEAKER_01]: And we also talked about meaning and work, and all those eight things are just named, that's the sort of the map that we let on in season one.

7:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you just explain season two, the, you know, getting your life together, giving your life away, giving your death away this sort of time narrative of it. [SPEAKER_01]: So now listeners, you have a map of the tension points of fatherhood. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you feel like it's hard to do what you're doing, it's cousin.

8:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth living between all these tension points and if you feel like man I'm in a tough stage of life Yeah, like season two you're in this stage of giving it away and so you could think about Season one and season two trying to help you understand why it indeed feels so hard Yeah, to rise to the call of fatherhood.

8:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and we want to equip you [SPEAKER_01]: to really think about that, dive deep in that and figure out what to do. [SPEAKER_01]: So we now have like our next years planned out ahead of us because we're going to take the next eight seasons. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to dive deep into each one of those places with fatherhood and talk like in depth about what does it mean to play in your family future?

8:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to like understand your family paths? [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to come out of hiding send advices? [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to do covenant community for covenant friendship? [SPEAKER_01]: But in this season, we are going to go deep into what does it mean to work?

9:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe to new ones that one little piece, not just to work, but calling, location, the difference theology. [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully what we want to do, just to add that little cherry on top to what you said, [SPEAKER_00]: is simply that we want to actually this season, and hopefully as you listen through this season, it will give you a taste of what we mean.

9:24 [SPEAKER_00]: When we say deep dive, we mean we are going not only on the surface of like what these things are, but then even deeper of how can you, as a father, as a husband and all of our sisters listening, identify where this is at, how to actually [SPEAKER_00]: and how to live it out. [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you've struggled with like what's my calling and what's the difference in what's vocation and what like hopefully or hope by the end of this is to actually give you a comprehensive idea and then really truly practical tools to do something with it.

10:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And so [SPEAKER_00]: season three, I can't believe it and honored to do it. [SPEAKER_00]: And just also have to say, it has been absolutely wild. [SPEAKER_00]: The fatherhood retreat response. [SPEAKER_00]: And so as you've already heard, you know, we're going to be doing another one in Austin, Texas, which is incredible.

10:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And that way. [SPEAKER_00]: And that way. [SPEAKER_00]: And cannot wait. [SPEAKER_00]: And we have a far bigger venue than we did before. [SPEAKER_00]: So bring a friend, bring five. [SPEAKER_00]: But we just see like, God's doing something here and that's our prayer, especially in this season as well.

10:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it was, honestly, at the Fatherhood Retreat in February, that I at least started to think we should do our next season on work and vocation, because so many people's questions were, some version of how do you balance work and family life? [SPEAKER_01]: And it is such a central question of a fatherhood.

10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually don't like the question because I don't like the word balance because it imagines there on two opposite sides of the scales like inherently intention we talked about this we'll talk about it more. [SPEAKER_01]: But so many of things if you were to make a word map and turns out I did.

11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You're making a word map word map of the kinds of things that came up and the intentional fatherhood retreat. [SPEAKER_01]: So many of them center around work, like let me just read you, you know, I made a mind map work with the center. [SPEAKER_01]: There's there's family there's calling there's ambition.

11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: How do I how do I divide up my time. [SPEAKER_01]: Where is meaning purpose? [SPEAKER_01]: What about hobbies side projects? [SPEAKER_01]: providing for your family, making decisions and my call to work is as ministries as secular as a sacred, what I do with my ambition, I feel like I'm at the leave, I feel like I'm at the serve, all I could keep going.

11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It impacts your health, like you're mental health, your physical health. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, did, I did it, I think you go, but when I think about broke my life and when I think about the lives of the dads that I meet and talk to, whether or not you understand why you do what you do.

12:05 [SPEAKER_01]: is absolutely central. [SPEAKER_01]: So many people don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: They're calling. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know the purpose. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know their vocation. [SPEAKER_01]: But by the end of the season, they are. [SPEAKER_00]: This is completely surfaced and has nothing to do with work, but that's an incredibly good camo.

12:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I see a lot of different camo shoots. [SPEAKER_00]: Go ahead over to YouTube. [SPEAKER_01]: This is our second nod to hey, go watch on YouTube. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it wasn't on purpose, but where's it? [SPEAKER_00]: This is a good camo. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my wife bought this for me.

12:28 [SPEAKER_00]: has that extra touch, it's not just like generic camera, it's better. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's from Abercrombian Fit, which is kind of embarrassing because that was this shirtest. [SPEAKER_01]: Good job. [SPEAKER_00]: I am not Abercrombian, if it's just coming back hard. [SPEAKER_00]: They're coming back big time.

12:43 [SPEAKER_00]: It was super big when I was in school. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they thought they died. [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, and that listing that has, we're not here. [SPEAKER_00]: No, this is not it. [SPEAKER_00]: This is not it. [SPEAKER_00]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: Totally. [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: Literally in the last two years, I think half of my wardrobe became Abercrombian because their basics are so good.

12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, truly. [SPEAKER_00]: I'll literally show you all things throughout this week. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, can't believe we're talking about that. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, no, I can't, I absolutely can. [SPEAKER_00]: That's real life. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's get into this.

13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, just, and I would love to start with, and we kind of obviously, we've read through this, we've mapped this out, but obviously as we've talked, I think the best place to start is really the best place to start in any situation is scripture, foundation, theology. [SPEAKER_00]: There is a real theology to work, and I think it's very easy to, [SPEAKER_00]: not just some forget that or some overdo it.

13:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a tension of both. [SPEAKER_00]: We need to remember there's a theology of work, but we also need to remember that that doesn't put pressure on you to be something or in some place that you are not currently. [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to just also say as you're getting into this season, if you are feeling feelings of shame like, oh, I haven't figured it out or like this is a process.

13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's first say that. [SPEAKER_00]: Secondly, there's a lot of men that I talked to [SPEAKER_00]: who are still trying to figure out what they are fully made to do because they have not had good models. [SPEAKER_00]: No one has helped them, they haven't had the conversation, they haven't known even what conversations to have.

14:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just wanna say wherever you are at listening, if you're really successful in your career, I hope this is helpful. [SPEAKER_00]: But if you are also like seriously struggling and you're like, I'm just trying to make the ends meet, I'm working a lot of different jobs, or I'm literally out of work and I don't know what I'm to do.

14:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You are welcome here and we are going to do our best to make sure that whatever angle or place and stage you're coming in that this is going to be helpful. [SPEAKER_00]: But it all starts with the theology of understanding what we are actually made to do. [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, at why I'm so glad you're, I know Justin, I want you to take this part for sure and you're going to.

14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Why I'm so glad we're about to talk about this is because every time and you did such a good job something this. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we have such a misunderstanding. [SPEAKER_00]: What it means to have a theology of work, and so just give it to the people, give us a couple minutes on this.

15:04 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, our goal before you leave this episode is that you have a big theology of work. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which in my mind, what I'm talking about is that you need a big theology of creation. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: You need a big theology of the fall. [SPEAKER_01]: You need a big theology of redemption.

15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: You need a big theology of consummation that kingdom to come. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to intertwine this a little bit with my story because if you're listening to this is your first season you're tuning into you may or may not know. [SPEAKER_01]: I am a business lawyer. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we're at the in the basement of my law firm, a vote of legal right now.

15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But I used to be a missionary in China. [SPEAKER_01]: I write books as sort of a [SPEAKER_01]: In and out of places, other people might call sacred and secular ministry and non-ministry. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't love any of these terms, I don't explain why. [SPEAKER_01]: But a huge part of my story is realizing that work [SPEAKER_01]: is much more spiritual than I ever thought, ministries, not the only spiritual version of work, and that a big theology of work, particularly for a father, particularly for man, is really going to help you understand why God lays a claim on all of your life and why everything that you do can have meaning.

16:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So actually, before I dive into some Bible verses here, I might say some of my background is that I was really involved with campus crusade for Christ in college. [SPEAKER_01]: It was so important for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing that I'm about to say is meant to be demeaning towards crusade.

16:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: It was such an incredible shaping influence in my life. [SPEAKER_01]: It's what brought me to China as a missionary. [SPEAKER_01]: So I was a missionary in China for four plus years with with crew as they call up now. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But something that I heard along the way in campus crusade, I specifically remember a fall retreat where I'm listening to this speaker from Pennsylvania talk.

17:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You're talking about eternity and how we should do everything now for the sake of eternity because like what's going to last as what matters. [SPEAKER_01]: which I agree with by the way. [SPEAKER_01]: But then he said this thing. [SPEAKER_01]: He said, in the end, there are only three things that are eternal.

17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: God, the Word of God, and the souls of men. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, huh. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it was I was young. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like in college, maybe it's sophomore junior. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember. [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of just took it's like, yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: I guess yeah, God lasts forever.

17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The word of God lasts forever. [SPEAKER_01]: Souls of men that make sense and women I think, but yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway. [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm sorry sisters listening yeah that idea well that that's why this was funny a lot of ways because it was a very very part the farther I got from that statement the more I realized how wrong and actually kind of dangerous it was and again I mean they should be crusade I mean they're a part of this man but here's what's just problematic about that statement it impacted me and many others to think a couple things [SPEAKER_01]: one that the world is basically spiritual and not physical.

18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: God, the word of God, the souls of men, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: It also made us think that really probably in light of that [SPEAKER_01]: Like the only proper vocation you could really take in light of a statement like that is well, I should go save the souls of me.

18:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And women and so in the far and here's what I want to say really positively about crusade. [SPEAKER_01]: What was cool is that my years in China completely undid that kind of theology. [SPEAKER_01]: And I got a really big theology of work thanks to all the people that we're teaching the in China, just like they had a really strong theology.

19:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And so some of the things that we looked at, for example, that I'm going to read to you now, my mentor is my teachers in China. [SPEAKER_01]: And these were mostly American people, but they just had a great theology. [SPEAKER_01]: They were like pushing back against this concept. [SPEAKER_01]: And they were saying, no, no, no, hold on.

19:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Like open up [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we get Genesis 127. [SPEAKER_01]: So God created mankind in his own image in the image of God. [SPEAKER_01]: He created them, male and female created them. [SPEAKER_01]: He blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and increase the number fill the earth and subdue it.

19:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Rule over the fish and the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living thing and creature that moves on the ground. [SPEAKER_01]: This is [SPEAKER_01]: a pivotal moment in Scripture, because you open it and you find God working, creating the, by the way, material world. [SPEAKER_01]: Like material, the spiritual material world, not meant to be separated, not meant to be thought about distinctly.

20:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he invites mankind into that work. [SPEAKER_01]: And you get a more full picture of this in Genesis 2, because we read Genesis 2, 5. [SPEAKER_01]: This is rehashing the creation of Adam. [SPEAKER_01]: No shrub had yet appeared on the earth. [SPEAKER_01]: No plant had yet sprung up.

20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: For the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth. [SPEAKER_01]: And there was no one to work the ground, mess the word of Voda. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to note here, or is it Avodot? [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: My law firm is named after this word. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about this.

20:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I heard that Jewish people Hebrew scholars pronounce it Avodot. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know because I'm not one. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not Jewish. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not Jewish. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not Jewish. [SPEAKER_00]: For the sake of your business, it's Avoda. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to say Avoda.

20:42 [SPEAKER_01]: You see it again in Genesis 215, the Lord took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a derivative of the word Avoda. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you flipped to the very other end of the Bible. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, very other end of the Bible.

20:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You opened revelations, 21, and you see, I saw a new heaven and a new earth. [SPEAKER_01]: For the first heaven, the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. [SPEAKER_01]: I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband.

21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I could read this whole passage, it's amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: But this is where we get all things new, the whole, what I'm making all things new, I for a long time with many other people had what I would call a fall and redemption theology of work. [SPEAKER_01]: The only real things I understood about the world was that it was broken and that Jesus redeemed the souls of men and women.

21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Which if you think about those two things, [SPEAKER_01]: They're both really true, but probably the only proper vocations you'll get out of them is I need to fix something broken in the world like justice, you know, in ministries which is by the way, great, which is not the only thing, or evangelism and discipleship ministry because we're saving people.

22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: When you add in these incredible bookins of the rest of the Bible and you see no wait, God is the one who invented the whole world. [SPEAKER_01]: He's the God of work. [SPEAKER_01]: He loves [SPEAKER_01]: And wait, he's making it all new again, this idea that God, the word of God and the souls of men and women are the only thing to last is actually to not true, though the creation becomes new is made new again, the former passes away, the new is to come.

22:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of mystery here. [SPEAKER_01]: I would grant this. [SPEAKER_01]: of mystery here. [SPEAKER_01]: But we do know that there's a new city of God coming. [SPEAKER_01]: We do know that all things find their newness in the new heavens and the new earth. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you book in that, you get a much bigger picture of work.

22:44 [SPEAKER_01]: One where ministry is absolutely at the center and you have to think about how is work broken and how are we bringing people to God. [SPEAKER_01]: But also in a wider world of God does a lot of things. [SPEAKER_01]: He cares about a lot of things. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot for us to do.

23:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really big story and I would call that like a biblical theology of work and if we're going to if you're going to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it you need a big Biblical theology work. [SPEAKER_01]: Let me pause there because I talked for a minute and say did that make sense to you What are you like no not only made sense.

23:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean obviously I not only fully agree and believe that but [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I learned that, I mean, how free and maybe if this is the first time you're hearing that idea that ministry isn't the only valid work to do in the world, I hope it gives you what it gave me, which is just like this breath of like, wow, God created us all so different to do different things.

23:46 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, in my story or experience, there was so much, you grow up in the church. [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have a good theology or understanding of what work is, you naturally go, well, the only good work is the work that would be tied to a church almost directly or a nonprofit or mission-based work.

24:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can get to this place where we feel like nothing's meaningful or powerful or useful. [SPEAKER_00]: If it's not connected to that, but I believe, man, that it can be such a sneaky lie of the enemy that he feeds so many, and it's so many men that I talk to even now, that it's really just understanding this dynamic that you're highlighting that we're talking about right now to say, excuse me.

24:30 [SPEAKER_00]: to say that it is so absolutely freeing when you understand what you just said and what we're talking about here. [SPEAKER_00]: And so not only did it make sense, I hope it did for many what it did for me years ago. [SPEAKER_00]: Just understanding like you can do so many things in helping rebuild and be a part of the new heavens and the new earth right now.

24:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can do so many things that are not connected to a church. [SPEAKER_00]: that are so effective and I would argue in many ways in times even more impactful and affected. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the thing that I love the most is when I see Jesus followers who are really successful in business emerge those worlds through so many various things.

25:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: So, not only made sense, I love that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's, it's a super, super, super important thing for anyone listening to do as much as you can to, and if you did not understand, go back and listen again, what Justin just said, what we are talking about could be just one of the biggest freeing gifts for you to just excel in the work that you're already in and not quit and go to try to work in a church [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to point out, I think, what is hopefully going to be a really important dynamic of this season is that you're hearing from, you know, me talking right now just in yes I run a law firm.

25:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, but what you run you run the ministry. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's my background. [SPEAKER_01]: And so while I think a lot of our listeners probably need the help to understand why their work as a electrician. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just reading a question from an electrician who sent in on the, because I put out a call for questions on the work and I was like, I'm a full [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

26:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this guy, this guy is full of information. [SPEAKER_01]: People like you, you're an electrician. [SPEAKER_01]: You're in private equity. [SPEAKER_01]: You're in a accountant. [SPEAKER_01]: You're a lawyer like me. [SPEAKER_01]: You're a dentist. [SPEAKER_01]: You're a doctor. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them, you know, know probably like doctors and I'm like, well, I'm healing people.

26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They feel like there's some significance to it. [SPEAKER_01]: But people, you know, my electrician friends, or my contractor friends, my fellow lawyers or candidates, sometimes they get in this place. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, [SPEAKER_01]: Like does it have any like significant eternal purpose like I a lot of the season is going to be trying to remind you or teach you for the first time absolutely yes it does you need a theology for it, but none of it should be taken to say I don't know do some like fads swing against ministry where like okay the vibe now is like Christian should go do this kind of work like no yes I used to be ministry your info time ministry [SPEAKER_01]: Lord knows we need justice work, Lord knows we need poverty work, Lord knows we need missionaries, we need evangelism, we need discipleship.

27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to equally yoke these vocations. [SPEAKER_01]: And I hopefully will be, you know, given that we're in both of them, we'll be good at that. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think between, yes, I completely agree between the differences, there's a lot of unity between you and I obviously, but our work is different.

27:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And I [SPEAKER_00]: many times thought and prayed through the business path. [SPEAKER_00]: But truly in my life in situation, it's been very clear that this is the path that I'm supposed to take, but that is taking years to figure out. [SPEAKER_00]: And it is taken so many different trying different things doing different things and so it was never clear.

28:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But it leads to, I'll honest your little story, but it leads to, first Corinthians 717s, we're setting up this whole season as we're doing it with [SPEAKER_00]: Nevertheless, for Corinthians 717, love this. [SPEAKER_00]: Each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them.

28:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Just as God has called them, this is the rule. [SPEAKER_00]: I laid down in all the churches Paul's talking here. [SPEAKER_00]: So I love love this for so many reasons. [SPEAKER_00]: Each person should live as a believer in whatever situation you're in. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, [SPEAKER_00]: God has assigned, and I think we can get really that word King sometimes, maybe distracts something.

28:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I doing the right thing? [SPEAKER_00]: Am I doing what God assigned me to do? [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, I don't know what your story, but I'll tell you this. [SPEAKER_00]: On the way to discovering what you are truly made to do, supposed to do called to do, on that way in journey, which feels messy.

28:58 [SPEAKER_00]: In my experience, it all is important. [SPEAKER_00]: you have to be where you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Now I want to say that because that sounds almost too simple in self-helpy. [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be where you are. [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot be where you are not. [SPEAKER_00]: I know that sounds so silly but so many men can see or hope to be where they want to be.

29:17 [SPEAKER_00]: But you cannot be where you're not, you have to take certain steps, stages, growth, stage of life to get there, and it's really easy for us to get really stuck on the vision that we have and forget like it is so many steps if I'm looking at what I do now and stepping into intentional and leading an on profit in a ministry movement type thing, everything that I've done, to do what I would say now if you'll call to do has been absolutely essential.

29:45 [SPEAKER_00]: to preparing me for this. [SPEAKER_00]: And if I look back, although it didn't seem all that for this again, my story, if I look back and go, it did make sense at the time, but I look back now and go, this completely makes sense. [SPEAKER_00]: So I remember for my personality type being in full-time vocational church ministry, local church ministry where you are in the grind every single week, [SPEAKER_00]: was the best for my personality to grind out the rough edges to to show a certain level of of work and heart and people like they were all like when I look back I literally say to people that wait when this topic comes up it was the literal best training ground for what I know get to that one gosh.

30:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say the exact same thing about being a missionary with campus crusade. [SPEAKER_01]: Hit my first job out of college. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me, it was just so helpful for making me not just an adult, but it taught me how to fundraise, which is the idea that you need to be able to basically go up to strangers, communicate big vision and ask for their money.

30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think I know. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, yeah, you do this all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: I know this. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good skill and it's a learn skill. [SPEAKER_01]: It taught me productivity, how you're, you're a missionary in China. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you do? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you structure your day?

31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, you know, you can make so many excuses in ministry. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and by the way, you can make so many excuses in an office, like whether you're in mint and say it, say it. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I see. [SPEAKER_00]: I see. [SPEAKER_00]: I see. [SPEAKER_00]: I see. [SPEAKER_00]: I see.

31:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I see. [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is an important moment. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to come back to what campus is a topic. [SPEAKER_01]: This is an important moment. [SPEAKER_01]: Our listeners are gonna struggle, you all. [SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna struggle like we have to divide up the world the way the enemy wants to divide it up.

31:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like separating things that God intended to be whole. [SPEAKER_01]: We divide the world often in terms of vocation, in terms of jobs that make money, and jobs have to ask for money. [SPEAKER_01]: We call it one secular. [SPEAKER_01]: You're in the business world. [SPEAKER_01]: We call one sacred.

31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You're in the nonprofit world. [SPEAKER_01]: We call one ministry. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we call one, you know, regular vocations. [SPEAKER_01]: The dividing line and work is not whether you make money or ask for money. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just not. [SPEAKER_01]: There's are two kinds of God or Dane great work.

32:13 [SPEAKER_01]: They're both wonderful. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't divide it up on any sort of moral ground. [SPEAKER_01]: period. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like you can do ministry for your own good and it is devastating and damaging to so many people. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you can [SPEAKER_01]: run a tech company for the glory of God and it will be so helpful to so many people and you're going to say in both cases, what does that mean?

32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll get there. [SPEAKER_01]: We get there. [SPEAKER_01]: We got a lot of places. [SPEAKER_01]: We have lots of shares to see the likes. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get there. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what does it mean to use your work as mission? [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to glorify God in your work?

32:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just want to say the dividing line is not, do you make profit or are you a non-profit? [SPEAKER_01]: The dividing line is, are you working [SPEAKER_00]: Can I highlight, yeah, highlight, and then I am going to come back to question how you're informed me. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, just to, we'll click on that one little part is to say, there's no difference between what you do and I do in the sense of the way that money comes in for you is different than when the money comes in for me, what organizationally.

33:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's mostly an IRS. [SPEAKER_00]: It's an association. [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually letting that the IRS, it's defined our moral categories of where the IRS is not good at much. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, eh? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't let them do the policy for you. [SPEAKER_00]: There's no need to audit for a saying that.

33:37 [SPEAKER_00]: You know there's no need. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just kidding. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, I love you guys. [SPEAKER_00]: It's just doing great, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: Did you see by the way, oh my my map, there's just a note that says I hate taxes. [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see it, I started to get really out there on the like money and stewardship and then I just like I hate that Yes, I can realize we're right around Texas It's an IRS their lineage and go ahead, but just say that like okay, so the way that money comes in and is categorized by the IRS is not The definition and the deciding factor if your work matters or not [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just, for instance, I have a responsibility to lead the organization I lead with integrity and skill and kindness and proper management and ambition ambition.

34:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: With with that we have tried to take over the world for G. Yes, like. [SPEAKER_00]: We have the same, and to point, and because I know you, you have an organization, but it's actually a law firm that is doing good work in the world and you want to have integrity.

34:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: You want to be a great leader and manager. [SPEAKER_00]: You want to care for the people. [SPEAKER_00]: And it actually makes how you are leading this and how I am leading what I'm leading should not actually in any way because of our beliefs and heart should look no different if anything we should be challenging each other like just and are you being like kind of leader manager.

35:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, of an organization that people want to follow and that cares for people all of life can I just say this and then we'll I want to hear this story. [SPEAKER_00]: All of life can be summed up in my what when it comes to work as service. [SPEAKER_00]: we're made to serve. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you can take every role that you ever have been given to serve, especially the higher your role becomes, the more healthy, the more beautiful, the more good and God it will be.

35:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the moment I think that I'm leading this organization, it's my job job now to be served is the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: And you see this all over the place is when things take. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And people are serving or you think that's what's so. [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, just say like, [SPEAKER_00]: wherever you're at, do not let the IRS decide if it's godly or not.

35:49 [SPEAKER_00]: It's godly because of who you are. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's godly because of you if you're in that space. [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, Jesus, you're going to move through that person to do good work. [SPEAKER_00]: So as that comes and pertains back to training in the sense of your call, campus crusade, China, tell me more.

36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, being in the ministry world and I think Crusade was wonderful at this, it just taught me so many things. [SPEAKER_01]: Something had a fundraise, taught me how to structure my day, it taught me how to be accountable to, you know, a goal, it taught me how to budget. [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, we were poor, like we had very little, I mean, I'm not kidding, I guess.

36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, to be clear, we lived like kings in China because the American dollar went so far, but I mean, the amount of money we're making was just a year, you know, technically, I think either on or below the American poverty line. [SPEAKER_01]: So, but that's not to to our own horn. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, we lived just, you know, so frugally.

36:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It was more just like, we didn't have extra money. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we were very, we were very frugal. [SPEAKER_01]: So, taught me how to deal with money. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And incidentally, it taught me great theology, which was then the reason I felt called, and I tell this story in lots of places, I'm not going to, if you want to hear, you need to go back to season one and listen to episode seven on work.

37:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll hear my story of me getting, you're impressed that I remember that. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm impressed Yeah, is it your ego that remembered that though because you love that episode? [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, I loved how I did that episode. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to serve not be served.

37:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much. [SPEAKER_00]: That was really good to hear that. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't give Jack. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to hear my full story of how I felt called from being a missionary to being a lawyer, go back and listen to that episode. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to tell it at length here.

37:34 [SPEAKER_01]: But I really did have a point in China where I started to feel like, oh, the way that God has wired me to serve the world, glorify Him, and seek the redemption of all things in Jesus, is actually in the business and law and political social world, not in evangelism. [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt called to be like a quote unquote missionary to lawyering.

38:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And I say that, I really do still believe it. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have a call to it. [SPEAKER_01]: But that was the beginning of me, like ministry set me up for this, realizing, oh, I want to obviously continue ministry for the rest of my life. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an ambassador for Christ.

38:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm one of the in the priesthood of all believers like I'm a Christian. [SPEAKER_01]: I have the Holy Spirit wherever I go is ministry and so now I think well how does running a law firm do that and we'll talk about that. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of that is evangelism. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of that is sort of discipleship caring for your employees.

38:32 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of that is stewarding the world that God made. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of that because we'll get there on talking about calling and how your job relates and stuff, but I just want to note that was a huge movement for me and we need to set that foundation for all our listeners, a couple of resources if you want to read more on this and I'm going to start saying this a lot because I've come to really believe it.

38:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the habit of habits is reading. [SPEAKER_01]: Like everybody should you should be a reader. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care if it's audio books page books. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I don't care if you get them for the library or buy them. [SPEAKER_01]: I have You should be reading Reading is one of the things that helped me so much of this and I just recommend men to thoughts here empty rights surprised by hope [SPEAKER_01]: is a wonderful view of the resurrection and the new heavens and the new earth and why things now like mundane work, quote unquote matter to eternity.

39:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great book. [SPEAKER_01]: Another theologian that it really influenced me here. [SPEAKER_01]: It uses a little bit more upstream, but Father Capon. [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful theology writer. [SPEAKER_01]: He wrote a book called Romance of the Word that just helped me have a really strong theology of creation and understanding why it's kind of wild in the [SPEAKER_01]: in the spectrum of all worldviews, Christianity really stands alone in this idea that God loves the material world.

39:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It is flows out of his being. [SPEAKER_01]: He's a being of love. [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't need it. [SPEAKER_01]: He was just like, I want to make something awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: He's an artist. [SPEAKER_01]: He still loves it. [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to remake it into something new. [SPEAKER_01]: So Father Capon and T. Wright were both huge influences for me in this.

40:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say another I think maybe depending if where you're at on the N.T. [SPEAKER_00]: writes great. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't ever make it through it all of his stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the resurrection of the Son of God is a tome. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I've read many sections of it and many pieces of it.

40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, but surprise by hope is a layman's version of that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it's and it's quite good. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just noting that for if anyone's like handy right no way. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I'm highlighting that. [SPEAKER_00]: And then also, and I'm slow to ever promote this because A will never dishonestly promote something, especially if it's a family member, but jump mark my brother-in-law wrote Garden City.

40:51 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, I really don't want to promote jump mark, but I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: We love that guy. [SPEAKER_00]: I tell you what. [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, he doesn't need the promotion. [SPEAKER_00]: It's sincerely though. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people have been helped by that book because it's doing a lot.

41:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a different version, but similar overlap. [SPEAKER_00]: You'll see a lot of overlapping at least as far as some of the ideas of what we're talking about in the sense of God loving the material world and what that looks like. [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's just a, I'm noting that because I think Garden City's a great resource for that.

41:20 [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about resources. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's really important to say like he did write that book. [SPEAKER_00]: It was a long time ago when he wrote that book actually I think But I also think that it's a really great book. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to highlight Are you you have another book?

41:34 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I want to do so one more in here to it. [SPEAKER_01]: I have one down here next to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's [SPEAKER_01]: called the sacredness of secular work. [SPEAKER_01]: He's got a bunch of books. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll call out another one when we do our episode on time and productivity.

41:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But Jordan Reiner's contemporary writer got some great writing on sacredness of secular work. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're speaking at something with him. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you can have something with him. [SPEAKER_00]: Good. [SPEAKER_00]: Rainer? [SPEAKER_00]: I just zoomed with him the other day.

42:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It was great. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Jordan. [SPEAKER_00]: Nice flex. [SPEAKER_00]: You win. [SPEAKER_00]: The point you were going to make. [SPEAKER_00]: We're cousins. [SPEAKER_00]: I want to let you know we found out we were blood cousins. [SPEAKER_00]: Anything else you want to [SPEAKER_00]: Are we flexing right?

42:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so. [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Jordan. [SPEAKER_00]: I was actually, it's really thinking, is that the, I think it is the guy. [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't remember his name. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Frederick, buccner, or if we're gonna quivdle over the pronunciation of a bodha or avada.

42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been her. [SPEAKER_01]: I've been told that it's Frederick Beaker. [SPEAKER_01]: Beaker. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know that. [SPEAKER_01]: He's only one of my favorite writers. [SPEAKER_01]: I've read a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: So, Beaker or Beaker. [SPEAKER_01]: Have you read his fiction?

42:44 [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_00]: I have. [SPEAKER_00]: It's good. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have a question by vocational people and people that do, you know, two different kinds of things he has breadable fiction, I didn't know that he's in our Dane Presbyterian Minister, who wrote incredible works of fiction and incredible devotional works of nonfiction work, I think actually let's pause on that really quick, I want to share a quote, but.

43:08 [SPEAKER_00]: What I love about that, what I see is that beautiful blend of like living your life fully of and who gods made you to be and not trying to do what you had said when we were talking about really. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the sacred, the secular, there's so much beauty and all of it and it doesn't have to have a religious stamp, a nonprofit stamp, a church stamp, to be good and godly.

43:31 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, in many ways, it's used even more when it's not. [SPEAKER_00]: But Beekner, a beginner of depending, is the place, yeah, he's got a great quote on calling, I think doesn't it? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a great quote, someone was trying to call me, I don't know why that didn't, what that was weird.

43:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He says the place God calls you to is where your deepest gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just say when we're hungry, the place God calls you to is where your deep gladness, what you love to do and the world's deep hunger meet. [SPEAKER_00]: And I could not agree more with this.

44:08 [SPEAKER_00]: This is something that I think even recently, I've found in my own life and it's a huge gift of like things I actually love to do. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I get to do and I also it's a part of like what I made to do but it also is my vocation is what I do to actually live as well and that doesn't know I want to say I know that doesn't always happen but I also know that for so many years I prayed that it would and for so many years I worked towards it all the things I needed to do to understand that in my own life.

44:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also to actually then build skills to actually allow that to be the case. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's an important detail to note here that learning what you are made to do is a process. [SPEAKER_00]: But the discovery process of what you like to do and are made to do, it just takes time.

45:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a lot of folks that we compare ourselves to that maybe had an early career. [SPEAKER_00]: That, honestly though, on a really sincere note, so John Mark, my brother-in-law, he is probably one of the more skilled people. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you know him, you know, he's just a very smart guy, but he's also a very hard worker.

45:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He has this combination of gifts. [SPEAKER_00]: You're similar in this. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of ways. [SPEAKER_00]: I see both of you are, and your entitlements is the same. [SPEAKER_00]: I was kidding. [SPEAKER_00]: I was kidding. [SPEAKER_00]: I was kidding. [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I knew it was coming.

45:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You knew it was coming. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's just like the same level as here. [SPEAKER_00]: It's really weird. [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, listen, boys, we have fun here all day. [SPEAKER_00]: I respect the heck out of Justin. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm absolutely kidding, but with John Mark II, he is such a hard worker.

45:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I've had a front row seat to his life for the last, how many, but we've been, you know, brothers essentially for 25 years in your own sister, Samaria, sister, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the thing for me is that as I've watched [SPEAKER_00]: him and people get to experience different versions of him or his work, I think what was interesting as I've been growing in my own understanding and faith, he actually started really early in his vocation and his calling and his career.

46:17 [SPEAKER_00]: What I want to say that why I want to highlight that is because as I've evaluated it, [SPEAKER_00]: Some people get really clear on what they're made to do and called to do early on, even in their 20s or 30s and this can be really disruptive to those who are not. [SPEAKER_00]: I did not.

46:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I did not. [SPEAKER_00]: And it can make you feel like you're really behind. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: So want to say this if you're in your 30s or even 40s. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm behind. [SPEAKER_00]: Know you're not. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a process. [SPEAKER_00]: It takes time. [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say this.

46:46 [SPEAKER_00]: If there is a world where you could be behind, I think being a good father and a good mother and having a good home is the thing that will help your kids get on this road far earlier than you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me say this, because I've had a front row seat to my family, my story, and then my wife, and then John Markham, his story.

47:08 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest differences in my observation of why John Mark was able to start his career early and run in it was lots of factors that had to do with his choice, his hard work, all that. [SPEAKER_00]: It was also that when he entered adulthood, he didn't have to heal from years of a terrible childhood.

47:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: And when you have a healthier family. [SPEAKER_00]: that's a gift that you give his last baggage. [SPEAKER_00]: They're ready like his dad the whole time was Phil was so great it from early on. [SPEAKER_00]: John Mark, what do you think about doing? [SPEAKER_00]: Like when he was 10 11 12, he was talking with him then and we're trying to do that now with our kids.

47:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So what is it? [SPEAKER_00]: What do you love? [SPEAKER_00]: What are you passionate about? [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think you're made to do? [SPEAKER_00]: So by the time he was like able to get an education and pick a path [SPEAKER_00]: with hard work and passion and direction, he was ready to run, which by the time, you know, he was in his 20s and even early 30s, he was already beginning to grow in his, the thing he was made to do.

48:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying that whole story, that kind of like behind the curtain story, to just say, never compare yourself to somebody that's at a different time frame, because honestly, [SPEAKER_00]: their stories different what they have to heal from mine was like 10 years of healing of just understanding how to become a normal healthy human to get to understand this stuff.

48:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to give everyone that's listening a little bit of a breath to say, okay, good. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't compare your stories. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great match on Mark too. [SPEAKER_00]: I love it. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, dude. [SPEAKER_00]: He sees the gym. [SPEAKER_01]: Can I pull one thing out of that quote?

48:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I this is a concept. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that needs to get in this episode before we end it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Because we're about to go to an episode on calling and how to choose your vocational that. [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the beat in a quote, yes, you're calling us found when your greatest gladness meets the world's deep-ung world's deep-unger.

48:57 [SPEAKER_01]: His why, being as an incredible writer, but his why I really love this. [SPEAKER_01]: If you pay attention to what's going on in that quote, there is a move from inner to outer, which means there's a direction, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: is an outward impulse in an outward direction. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that needs to be set up for this whole season on work is that work is broken, messed up and dangerous when it's turned inward to primarily serve us.

49:30 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the dividing line we said earlier. [SPEAKER_01]: So for you, so much as it is to glorify God by serving the world, that's an outward impulse. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the dividing line, not for prophet or not prophet. [SPEAKER_01]: The dividing line is it is it is it is it is it in word are outward.

49:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and I want to set up an outward and and the idea of of Voda is actually pretty new and my it's only even the past five years of my life that I've started really study this word or look at it in the scripture But we talked about it in the intentional fatherhood retreat. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, again, it's the name of my law firm is become very dear to me And I think it helps here because [SPEAKER_01]: A Voda shows up for the first time in Genesis 2, just as the word for work, okay?

50:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But then it shows up in two many places in the Old Testament, but two really important verses that you already know, they're very famous and they're really going to help you make multi-dimensional your idea of work. [SPEAKER_01]: It shows up in Exodus 8-1. [SPEAKER_01]: Let my people go that they might come out to the wilderness and avoid a me, okay?

50:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And we usually think of that, we usually translate that word as worship, let my people go that and they might come and worship me. [SPEAKER_01]: But Moses is saying, and God is saying to him, let my people go do the work of worship. [SPEAKER_01]: When you're doing the work in the Genesis of Voda sense, this is pre-fall, right?

50:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sense where your work is worship. [SPEAKER_01]: Just imagine [SPEAKER_01]: So how many people think work is a product of the fall? [SPEAKER_01]: It's what you have to do to earn a living or it's like, you know, it's cursed, it's thorns and thussels. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, that's true, but pre fall got made work to satisfy you by glorifying him.

51:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is actually, [SPEAKER_01]: It's worship like Adam and even the garden didn't have Himinals and liturgies and incense to like put on a service worship to God. [SPEAKER_01]: They worked the garden and that was their worship. [SPEAKER_01]: So work as worship. [SPEAKER_01]: That's an outward impulse.

51:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And then that word of vote shows up again in Our favorite verse the foundation of verse of this podcast Joshua 24 15. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, um as for me and my house we will [SPEAKER_01]: And now, again, if you're at the father of a tree, if you weren't, you missed out. [SPEAKER_01]: So I would talk so much about it.

51:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We set up that first night of the dichotomy of that verse that Joshua was saying don't serve the gods of the canonites and the Amorites. [SPEAKER_01]: They do weird stuff to speak about stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: It gets wild. [SPEAKER_01]: The stuff they were actually doing. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to know, we'll talk about it at the next father of a tree with this pretty dark.

52:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Very sexual, but he was setting that up is like you're in slavery to these Gods. [SPEAKER_01]: You need to be in a Voda service Which actually did have the connotation of like servanthood like bondsman. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, so like you were you were in service at the garden Yes, you're in the service of worship.

52:20 [SPEAKER_01]: You're slave to righteousness all these terms of the Bible sort of like get unified together Josh was talking about it as as a Voda as the work of service. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that's a great way to send you off thinking about work in the first episode. [SPEAKER_01]: It is work outwardly as worship to God and service to other people.

52:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That isn't an out word impulse. [SPEAKER_01]: It is not to inflight your identity. [SPEAKER_01]: It is not to line your pockets primarily. [SPEAKER_01]: It is to make you of use to the world in worship to God and service to others. [SPEAKER_00]: that's very well said. [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to give you a practice and we want to respond to a question or so or to that you had piped in.

53:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But I have to say something that I forgot to tell you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is very funny. [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to like this. [SPEAKER_00]: Um, first is, uh, remember at the Fatherhood Retreat, there was a group of guys that tattooed themselves in a [SPEAKER_01]: So with that kind of big they bought the tattoo going on Amazon and like it was their first time tattooing each other.

53:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I respect those guys so much so this is such such a funny like full circle So that happened and then we're we're just at the motherhood retreat Similar things 600 ladies in a room. [SPEAKER_01]: They did not tattoo them. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, they did not touch themselves No, no, but only dudes [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but then we're in the green room and we're about we're just going over the night and what's about to happen.

53:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Joey Odom. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, there you are. [SPEAKER_00]: Buddy. [SPEAKER_00]: He was there and he was he was going to do an announcement and I saw this little we had a shared note that he had added to and I see this just bullet point this says, [SPEAKER_00]: Joey, what the heck is this?

54:03 [SPEAKER_00]: By guys' wives? [SPEAKER_00]: Where they're? [SPEAKER_00]: Let me finish the story broke. [SPEAKER_00]: And then so he gets up. [SPEAKER_00]: Is like just trust me, just trust me. [SPEAKER_00]: And all of these guys had gotten 2415 from Josh for 2415, uh, which by the way would like to get a tattoo on this trip, I'm just saying it.

54:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it. [SPEAKER_00]: I'll do it. [SPEAKER_00]: Is that real? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still a virgin when it comes to tattoos. [SPEAKER_01]: I have to plan out my first. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so you don't mean to do it. [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to get distracted with it. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, you don't mean yes.

54:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I just, yeah, let your SPS is biblical. [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, they get this tattoo and turns out, they sent all of their wives there at their mother's retreat and they all stood up and they were all there. [SPEAKER_00]: It was just the coolest, full circle. [SPEAKER_00]: And they ended up getting like a ring for their covenant friendship because they didn't want to get tattoos, but a ring, like this beautiful gold ring that had an engraved thing on it.

54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, this is what I was talking about the beginning of the episode where I feel like the Lord is doing stuff way beyond us. [SPEAKER_01]: If you were to like put on a conference that is so good that inspires guys to get covenant friendship tattoos and then send their wives to the next one and have covenant rings we'd be like [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know idea.

55:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't tell you what was also absolutely staggering to me. [SPEAKER_00]: Just absolutely mind-blowing is that there was such a contingent of like men that did that. [SPEAKER_00]: They they were impacted and they sent their wives and it was so just it was such a full circle situation.

55:22 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just had to say that because you were talking about the tattoo. [SPEAKER_00]: That was like yes. [SPEAKER_00]: That's great. [SPEAKER_00]: I love it. [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about let's two practices. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's quick practices. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, get why don't you set up?

55:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about writing the story of [SPEAKER_00]: your work. [SPEAKER_01]: You should write the story of your work. [SPEAKER_01]: We want this to be practical throughout the season. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, we're going to be like three foundational episodes on theology of work, next one's on calling.

55:44 [SPEAKER_01]: But then we're going to... [SPEAKER_01]: five plus episodes on practices. [SPEAKER_00]: It's too much to do out. [SPEAKER_01]: But we will get very practical, but we're going to stay practical the whole time. [SPEAKER_01]: So here's my practice for you here. [SPEAKER_01]: I think everybody should be able to tell the story of their work through a biblical theology lens.

56:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So as a lawyer, I would say, okay, what does my work have through with creation? [SPEAKER_01]: What does have to do with the fall? [SPEAKER_01]: What does have to do with redemption? [SPEAKER_01]: What do have to do with conservation? [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what's for those four things.

56:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So creation, fall, redemption, new heavens, and new earth, often called conservation. [SPEAKER_01]: Creation. [SPEAKER_01]: God is a God of order. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he made the world in an orderly fashion. [SPEAKER_01]: In one way that you can think about all lawyers is they're trying to bring order to an area of the world.

56:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The world's fallen. [SPEAKER_01]: It is broken. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the realities and the reasons that we need law, this is actually where most people think of law is writing the wrongs. [SPEAKER_01]: You need justice needs to be done. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can think about, I think about my vocation is make sure justice is not lost in the deal we're making.

56:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Or make sure justice is recovered in the deal we're making. [SPEAKER_01]: Redemption. [SPEAKER_01]: I think what we need the word made flesh to do this. [SPEAKER_01]: You need covenant. [SPEAKER_01]: You need promises. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody needs to sacrifice in order for somebody else to gain.

57:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always thinking about how the lens of Jesus. [SPEAKER_01]: Redemption is always the easiest one because Jesus changes everything about me, about my co-work, is about how I work. [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm always thinking about how does the lens of the gospel. [SPEAKER_01]: change the way I'm thinking about this problem, or how does it affect the story of law big time.

57:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, conservation, we're always [SPEAKER_01]: Law is always pointing us to a world to come. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you're always thinking and law about how am I making the right deal so that essentially people can live happily ever after? [SPEAKER_01]: Like we write with a hope, like I'm a contract lawyer, right?

57:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not litigating. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm helping people make deals. [SPEAKER_01]: And part of the idea is that if covenants are kept, there's a future for everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't make sense in a world without God. [SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't. [SPEAKER_01]: You mean utterly depressing.

57:54 [SPEAKER_01]: No one ever keeps their promises. [SPEAKER_01]: It never works. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no future for anybody. [SPEAKER_01]: You wouldn't want to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: But when you believe the Christian story. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm playing a little part of this. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying where we've been covering it to create a happily ever after.

58:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Because everybody abides by them. [SPEAKER_01]: The world flourishes. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a new heavens and new earth. [SPEAKER_01]: or at least an echo of it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just, I can think about my job. [SPEAKER_01]: I could do this for being a father for being a writer for other, like other parts of my vocation.

58:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But wherever you are, and particularly the farther you are in a quote unquote secular work, you know, you're an electrician. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're be light, the things are broken. [SPEAKER_01]: They need to be fixed. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how are you, how are you, the person that comes in, I'm all of the people who come in in snowstorms and fix our power lines, like Jesus, they come into crisis and they put the world back together.

58:43 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just saying, like, run your vocation through this narrative line. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not an easy thing to do. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really worthwhile thing to do. [SPEAKER_00]: I really love how you said that or not just said it, but those four will have those in the show notes if you're like, we're going to finally just go a little bit quick to remember the show notes.

59:01 [SPEAKER_00]: One other practice that's going to prep you for the next one, but also very important. [SPEAKER_00]: This is just very simple, but I also think again, just like what you had mentioned. [SPEAKER_00]: Taking even 10 minutes or an hour in the morning one day just like just just try to think through this It will just help you get clear is one and I know for me and for you So write down three things that give you life and three things that three needs you see in the world [SPEAKER_00]: So three things like along the, the, the, the, it's a bit, this is the beginner quote and that's again, what next, we're going to talk a lot more about calling.

59:33 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is almost like a a pre game to next week and when that content will be even more flesh down, but even in the meantime, if you can just identify right down three things that bring you life, don't judge them. [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have to be very complicated, just name them. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the three needs you see in the world.

59:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And then just look at the [SPEAKER_00]: because there's a lot. [SPEAKER_00]: So a question. [SPEAKER_00]: We had a bunch of questions which were fun to come in. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, send in your questions. [SPEAKER_01]: We love answering them. [SPEAKER_01]: This one came into Instagram on a post a couple of them did.

1:00:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's I'm going to pick. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do one. [SPEAKER_00]: I was just going to pick one. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is good. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like they're all good, let's do this how do I integrate my work in my faith and not compartmentalize the two actually we kind of responded to that a little bit I hope this episode responded to an answer to that because you there's no sense In which your faith shouldn't be present at work in evangelism and discipleship like your your coworker should know your believer but it's [SPEAKER_01]: You know, 99% of the time we've not more at work, you're just going to be living out your faith into the good of your work and if you think that is not your faith, then you're just missing the big theology work and you feel compartmentalized when you realize it's not you realize how my like I'm a good worker because I do it this way because I'm a Christian this is my worship this is my service.

1:01:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't agree more the one of the less because I was a quick one and basically the answer is this episode, another one that came in, how do I value my job when family slash church responsibilities feel more fulfilling and important. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just say this really quick, how do you value your job.

1:01:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's exactly one of version of what Justin just said, what we've been talking about this whole episode, but it's also remembering that as soon as you start to identify and recognize that that job actually is a basis of foundation that actually helps you love and serve the responsibilities.

1:01:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you might enjoy certain things differently. [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean there's not [SPEAKER_00]: value. [SPEAKER_00]: And let's be fair, there's so many things in this world, this side of heaven that you will not like doing. [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember talking to somebody, a leadership person, and we were talking about this idea.

1:01:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you like 80% of what you do, that's more than most. [SPEAKER_00]: That's bangering. [SPEAKER_00]: That's like great. [SPEAKER_00]: If there's 20% of your job that you don't like, that's very normal for everybody that there's going to be a percentage that you don't like. [SPEAKER_00]: Now if it's like reversed 80, 20, [SPEAKER_00]: It may be the grinds who are maybe the schedule may of course, but like there's just going to be things that might be more fulfilling like ministry or like your family and that's not bad, that's actually good.

1:02:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your job. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: There's not it all. [SPEAKER_00]: So season three we're here episode one. [SPEAKER_00]: We got a lot of more to talk about so much more next week. [SPEAKER_00]: That was a good start. [SPEAKER_00]: Those are good start, and write these questions down.

1:02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Process, they'll be in the show notes, and we will see you next week. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.