Why People Buy: What Customers Really Want and Why Most Ads Miss It

0:00 But then you still have that constant question at the end of the day, which is did we make the right decision by providing this strategy?

0:08 At the end of the day, we're still guessing. And that guessing as a researcher is something that always has. In these 30 years of my career, being told we'll never be able to quantify qualitative information, it was always a piece of me of like, yeah, we will. We will somehow, someway.

0:30 What do you think about AI?

0:32 There's just a lot of noise right now, and there's a lot of confusion, and there's a lot of fear. So when generative AI came around, it was like, holy cow, this works. And we can now explain the why of the what in ways that were never possible before.

0:51 Stephanie, welcome to the Money Signal Podcast. So glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for joining us on this cloudy, gloomy day in New York City, where we get to talk about my favorite topic of all, which is data research and general consumer trends and the behind and the why, why consumers actually uh take the actions that they do.

1:15 I have this amazing bio, this amazing background of who you are. And, you know, it seems like you're a very much traditional market researcher, but implementing a very innovative approach into what comes out of the data and the research, implemented with, to me, what feels like a almost like a sprinkle of AI and packaged in a beautiful manner that uh brands and clients can actually really leverage and make the most out of consumer insights.

1:52 Um I'd love for you to introduce yourself in your best words and tell me if I actually got your um background the right way and if this is what really hotology is built on.

2:05 Yeah, the background was was fantastic. Uh I'll even start with the sprinkle of AI. I love the way that you mentioned that. And the way that we describe it is using generative AI as a function and not a facade. Obviously, there's lots of people out there right now who are running around with kind of a lip service to Gen AI or kind of slapping it on a very high level.

2:28 Um but really when it came on the scene, it was the final key that we needed to connect the why of consumer behavior to the what. Um and so, in terms of my bio, I think it really also ties into this moment because the only thing that wasn't in that is I actually started as an artist. I was an art major in undergrad and a college athlete.

2:51 And so I kind of used to being not understood, right? My artist friends were like, you sweat all day, like by choice, and my athlete friends were like, you draw all day. I don't understand. And so as I evolved through working in social services and really understanding the psychology of human behavior, and then at one point changed directions pretty dramatically and went to business school.

3:16 This tension between those two, right? Artist, athlete, um, psychology and kind of quantitative rigor really was a place where I felt comfortable. Um, and so, in these 30 years of my career, being told we'll never be able to quantify qualitative information, it was always a piece of me of like, yeah, we will, we will somehow, some way, and if we don't keep working towards it, then we'll never get there.

3:41 So when Generative AI came around and we sprinkled it on what we already had in motion, it was like, holy cow, this works. And we can now explain the why of the what in ways that were never possible before.

3:55 Wow, and it for our listeners, so hootology started in 2016. How did you decide to start the business and why?

4:06 Uh well I got fired. Uh and it was such a beautiful, I moved to New York uh to start a research and measurement division for an Olympic agency. And and I I was fired from that agency in such a beautiful way that I actually didn't realize I was fired until long after. And it was it was fun because all of the people I admire, right?

4:28 You hear Kara Swisher talking, and she's like, I've been fired 30 times from all every job I've ever had. And every person that I respect has all these great gotten been fired stories. And it was it was beautiful because I at nature I'm an I'm an INFJ if you're a Myers-Briggs uh fan, which is you know intuitive and feeling.

4:47 And so I think I needed to not realize I was being fired. And as I stepped out of that, and I had three more months on my New York City apartment rent, and um I was being recruited by another agency, and I just was like, I can't, I can't work for another agency, it's just not the right fit. And so um I started Houtology as a reluctant founder.

5:09 Like I feel like I ideally wanted to be a number two, right? The person who does all of the work and lets somebody else kind of be in the limelight. And I looked around and it had some many situations where I was like, I think, I think it has to be me. And so here we are 10 years later. And our mission and our shingle then was around modernizing the understanding of humans.

5:30 And it was really, and I say the understanding of humans and not market research, because there was a tension already creating then about market researchers, market researchers being so uptight that we were losing the connection to the people who are making the major decisions. And so, as times have evolved, is we've gotten less connected to being market researchers, even though we are, but more about strategists and understanding the people with multi-million dollar decisions on their shoulders and what they need to understand to put their reputation on the line to make that massive strategy decision, marketing decision, product innovation decision, and not getting so caught up in like the minutiae

6:13 that us as traditional researchers were taught is so important. It is. The information being right is table stakes. Um, but the why and why it matters for that person who's putting their themselves on the line is what we have to care most about and do care most about.

6:30 Isn't it interesting when it comes to traditional market research, at least from the experience that I've had in the last two decades that I've worked in literally social listening and market research, there's only two almost like care categories. There's always the qual and the quant. And then you have the surveys, the focus groups, then you have it's almost like this very nuanced, like, but but in a way, very black and white.

6:55 And then as a strategist, you have to then go to your clients who are multi-billion dollar companies and say, well, 500 people responded X, so maybe we should tweak the product in order to answer their their thoughts and their desires, but then you still have that constant question at the end of the day, which is, did we make the right decision by providing this the strategy?

7:20 What does Hootology do when it comes to strategizing hand-to-hand with your clients? So, if I understand correctly, you guys have a wide variety of services based on at least the website that I looked at. Um, how do you guys interact with the clients in order to make sure that the decisions they make are data-backed but also innovative, which you just mentioned with AI.

7:46 What does that process look like?

7:48 Well, first off, I love how deep your knowledge is in terms of understanding that that trade-off of that surveys or quantitative research and qualitative research that might be focus groups or or individual interviews. And really that that piece where you're like, I sort of felt it in your voice, where it's at the end of the day, we're still guessing, right?

8:09 And that guessing as a researcher is something that I always had discomfort with and wanted to keep trying to fix. So much so that I taught a graduate level global market research course at NYU for seven years, and in my seventh year, I quit because I could no longer look my students in the eyes and say that that survey research or that focus group research or interviews that you're doing is gonna serve you well in your decision-making careers from here on forward.

8:37 So we have completely reinvented the way to merge both of those two things in a completely modern experience. So where people do spend their times, no matter what generation uh they're in today, is on social, right? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's not for us to debate here today. Um, and in gaming, right?

8:58 So even Gen X boomers are 80% are still in some form of gaming, whether it be Wordle or or just interacting with our Uber app or our Lyft app, has all become gamified. So we wanted to modernize the experience so we could say it makes sense that people are spending their time doing this.

9:17 Yeah.

9:17 I'm not sure it makes sense if you're getting a survey uh data back that we accept that someone spent 15 to 30 minutes or 10 minutes or eight minutes taking a survey in 2026. I don't know the last time you took a survey or anybody you know took a survey, which makes us go, who who is taking that, right?

9:35 And then the limitation of both of those things, the bias on both sides. And so what as we started to question over the years how could this be better? It was what if we had a quantitative sample of people in this virtual, gamified, social media-like environment, uh, and then we were able to use their voice.

9:56 Um, so to have that focus group mentality where everything, whatever's on your mind, gets to come out. Uh, and then we use that to find what the answers are and the truth for those folks. Because that survey you're talking about, right? You might have 80% who chose one option, but that option may not even be in the top five if we actually listened to the people and how they wanted to express themselves.

10:18 Right.

10:18 So we built that, and that's hooks. Wow, and hooks is now, I think, patented, is that correct?

10:24 Yeah, it has a patent pending, which is an exciting uh and is an exciting time to apply and get that get that distinction.

10:31 Speaking about innovation, I mean, getting a patent on a on a product is is kind of a big deal. What uh what industries do you guys work in?

10:40 We're industry agnostics. So our first um our first projects that we were using to develop and build and test, um, one was with a Fortune 200 health insurance provider. We work for one of the top five global humanitarian organizations, we work for one of the top five banks. So the beauty uh is that we are listening to that consumer group, that human group.

11:03 I sometimes I hate to even say consumer research because it's we're really listening to humans and and trying to be sure that their voice shines through to be able to allow those decisions to be made. So, for example, that uh health insurance provider that I mentioned was looking to listen to six or seven different marginalized groups of groups of people.

11:23 Um, one was the Vietnamese American population, first generation, and to be able to understand what the barriers are to Western healthcare based on their heritage and the beauty of the elements that come that came from the country of their origin. And understanding those limitations allowed that company to be able to not just change their marketing efforts, but to actually change how the healthcare is delivered to be more respectful and inclusive and also be more preventative, which is what hopefully healthcare is always trying to do.

11:53 Wow, that's so cool. Uh also to hear as a researcher myself. Um, so you make a very much like a sharp distinction, if I even may use the word sharp, uh, between what consumers do and why they do it. Um, was there a specific moment or maybe like a client experience when you realized that that was maybe a gap?

12:16 If I if I can describe it as that?

12:18 Yeah, there for sure is a gap with with that survey data, which tells you what what happened or what people think, but not why. And so to kind of fast forward to this current moment in time with what's happening and in consumer intelligence and decision intelligence, uh, I was recently at a conference in Miami, the Possible Conference, which I'm sure you've either been to or heard about.

12:40 And there was a moment in the AI room, right? It was supposed to be demoing the most recent, uh, the most advanced uh AI technology. And US Bank got up and demoed uh conversational access to their data brain. And so, as I'm sure you know, uh data brains for for large entities, agencies, or corporations have every data point across all business units, right?

13:09 So that's actual purchases, that's clicks on advertising, um, that's that's every single touch point that could be in there that comes from across the the company. And that in my mind, the way described we the way that we describe that is the what what happened. And what was terrifying is that a agent had been created that created a persona of a small business uh owner, and that was able to talk to the data, and it was delivering back the rationale of that particular audience group, that consumer particular consumer group, completely off of tangible actual behavioral data.

13:54 Wow. And there is no why in that data, but it was giving back the why, right? What they saw, what they would respond to, what they would like, which is it's like in my mind, I'm so torn because I'm such a futurist when it comes to technology and I'm such a believer that everything is possible, right?

14:13 We're gonna get there eventually, whether it's during my lifetime or not. But in this moment, it's like, no, not this. Uh so our passion is about creating the data heart, which is the the completely accessible ongoing database for why people are making the decisions that they're making, so that it can have that descriptive element with actual humans and not a synthetic persona.

14:38 Wow. What do you think on that note? What do you think about AI? AI in the space and AI coming into market research and consumer research in general.

14:48 AI is controversial as a as an entire entity. So we um we all we all know that, and we all know that there's there's a lot of pros and a lot of cons. And specifically in our space, in that decision intelligence space and understanding consumers, when used correctly and in that function element, right, it it really is powerful and pretty magical.

15:13 Um so for us, it allows a brand to be able to fully understand their audience psychologically and be able to have what I call a double-sided ROI. So if we understand truly what a particular consumer group thinks and feels and wants and why, then we can save a heck of a lot of money by targeting the strategic dollars on the front end and not guessing.

15:39 Yeah.

15:40 And then being sure that that revenue on the back end is going to come through as well.

15:46 One of the things you also talk about is data heart as a layer that is missing currently from the research piece, and also it's a layer that's missing between the observable behavior, is what you mentioned, uh, and really the true understanding of consumers. What does that really look like in a real life example when it comes to the business decisions that your clients have to make with those missing layers and those gaps of data?

16:15unknown Yeah.

16:16 Um, back to your reference around qualitative, right? And understanding the why. So with Qual, it's that open-ended, a consumer can tell us anything that's on their mind, but historically it's been limited to being directional only because of the sample size. So we've solved that to be able to understand that why at scale, and that gives us uh that data heart.

16:40 And so when we use the term heart, we don't mean soft, right? We mean the explanation of the psychology of the loyalty that connects us all to our favorite brands and why we stay connected. So, what we're able to do is to be able to uncover that and have statistical assurance around that why and around that psychology.

17:05 So, an example of where that comes to play is we worked with um one of the top five global humanitarian organizations who was looking to come up with a strategy to help the 77 million Americans who work for small businesses, and small businesses being under $10 million a year in revenue. And their charge was to figure out how to create a plan for economic mobility and what the barriers were so that they could help small business owners be able to alleviate some of those barriers to improve access to intergenerational mobility and being able to help everybody kind of get to that next stage economically that they were trying to get to.

17:49 So to do that via a survey, right, we would be missing so much. We would be missing missing everything. Yeah, I mean, money is you know the world that you that you live in, financial and understanding that there's a huge psychology related to money, there's a huge element of fear related to money, there's a huge element of excitement and kind of glamorization of it, and none of that you're gonna be able to capture in the survey, right?

18:15 And so by being able to sit down with you know hundreds and thousands of people in this virtual, real-time, gamified, social media-like environment and say, tell us what's important to you, and being able to then use generative AI to find the themes, but then not assume that those themes are right, right?

18:34 But to be able to test the themes in real time so we can actually say this is truly what's on the hearts and minds of these 77 million people who work for a small business, and here's why. And now, as we start to build those data sets and now create conversational access to a giant data set that we call the data heart, that now is built on the why of that psychology, and now talk to it, helping companies be able to understand exactly what their target group needs and wants is something that we feel really great about.

19:08 And so it's like, sure, uh, are there a lot of things more important than than actual products and services? Of course, right? Love, connection, all of those things are wonderful. Yet, uh, think about the times that you get the perfect gift or the perfect thing that that brings joy to you. I know for me, it certainly is like, oh my gosh, life, life is a little bit, I feel more understood.

19:32 I feel more connected. I feel like there's a there's a group out there that's just for me. And that's what we're actually helping both on the profit side for companies, but also getting people access to what their voice being heard and getting things that they need and want, which is pretty exciting.

19:48 That's so interesting to hear. Now I have a question which feel free to say no to answering. Okay. Are you guys leveraging any social media data sets as well? And have you done social listening?

20:00 Yeah, I would I want to hear your take on this because I know that you've done a lot of this and had a really great success in terms of Wall Street and whatnot. My question has always been around social in terms of companies and large organizations and large agencies being able to really use that as a barometer for their consumer is concerning because we can't quantify it.

20:24 Right? We could use it as indicators for a lot of other things, but uh especially with the uh so many bots that are out there right now, right? We can't necessarily immediately know is this is this an actual human or not. And then what percentage of the audience does this represent? So uh a similar example that I think about, we worked with an NFL team recently, and they uh needed to understand that their entire DMA, not just their fan base, but their entire DMA to be able to go advocate to City Hall to be able to get some of the tax dollar allocations for renovations.

21:05 And there had been um a small group of people who showed up over decades to every single city council meeting and made themselves known that they were against this plan, right? That that the NFL team should get no dollars. And so what we were able to do is right size that this was a very, very, very, very, very small percentage of the entire city population who were so anti that they're gonna show up in City Hall.

21:33 But we couldn't be able to know if that was 1%, or was that were they representative of 50% of the population? And the the way that we were able to do it with the hooks platform was able to say, actually, it's more like 1%. Wow. That doesn't mean we don't worry about that. We need to address those are citizens' needs and those are important, but we're gonna strategically address it differently if we know it's one percent versus if we know it's 50%.

21:57 So if if a brand is just watching. Social, certainly paying attention, of course, is important for the obvious reasons, right? And the social team needs to be responsive and care about any any one of their customers. But being able to make massive strategic decisions that are gonna cost a lot of money, I think we need to understand more the why behind who's upset and how many of those that audience is upset.

22:24 And once we do, then we can make a different decision and actually right-size it, get at it, and then hopefully turn it and make it better.

22:33 I love that you're a true marketer. I mean, you mentioned sample size and DMA, I think is a word that only a marketer would know actually what it means, and it really correlates to more of that geographical location of the audience. And uh to answer your question and to add more to the context that you just added, I have to agree that social, when it comes to DMA level, we cannot provide the social listening and social understanding of the consumer audience, a specific zip code, just because of the way that social media is built for safety reasons.

23:05 Obviously, you can't access specific locations of users, and that is what makes it really impossible to understand at market level specifically, especially if we're talking zip code and DMA or state level, it's a bit more challenging. So that really the nuances are really missing. I love what you mentioned about obviously the power of market research when it comes to being able to actually influence governments.

23:32 I would say governments, because obviously international governments as well. And it sounds like a very cool project what you guys did with one of those NFL teams. Out of the when you think of the projects that you've done so far, um, global or US-based, regardless where they were, what is one of the highlights where you feel like you guys had such an impact that it really moved the needle?

23:55 And I ask that because as a marketer myself, I have such a hard time sometimes when I deliver a project to a client of mine understanding what happens. Like, does it actually go in the trash bin the minute I deliver it? Yeah. Or is it really moving the needle and making an impact in the world?

24:12 Our goal and everyone on our team is in it because we want to make an impact in the world, right? On an actual, at the end of the day, on actual humans. So the whole reason for rebuilding a new way to understand humans was to be sure more voices are being heard, right? In a way that I can stand up in front of a large brand and say, I feel good about this because I'm putting my name on it and my company's name on it, because it's not something that I believe is outdated for 2026, and it's collected in a way where everybody's voice is equal, right?

24:49 Um, so as it relates to the project that that was most special to me, it for sure is the one that I mentioned around the 77 million people who work for small businesses, and um the economic mobility strategy, because to make change at a large scale, it it takes something that uh it takes an entity that's able to reach that entire uh population or or have the resources and the name to be able to impact change on a big scale really matters.

25:19 And if you had to break down consumer loyalty and emotional drivers, where would you rank and rate fear of consumers currently, especially given the economic situation that we're in? There are wars out there, obviously the market we're on Main Street and Wall Street. What would you say is like one of those drivers for consumers and where they stand?

25:43 Yeah. What I would want um any any brand owner, company owner to think about their brand identity and their connection, that there's whole other ways to understand um how people create that loyalty. And I think sometimes I get nervous because a lot of creatives, and I'm a I'm an artist at heart, right?

26:06 Uh I understand that you know don't don't constrain me, right? I I want to be able to do and make whatever is the is the most cutting-edge thing. Um and a lot of a lot of those folks, including myself, live in London, New York, and LA. Uh, and a lot of the rest of the world does not live in those cities.

26:24 And um, there's a consumer loyalty, we're we're heavily based in psychology, and I I wish more brands considered the psychology of that loyalty piece because it we really make our decisions across two main planes, um, if we're more status quo um or if we're more growth. And uh almost everybody in this room, and certainly in this city, are gonna be mostly growth-oriented.

26:49 Um but 60% of the US is status quo, right? Um so much of advertising ends up being, you know, new better best, is sort of what is the message that's being sent out, but you're losing 60% of people who are who want what they've always had. The second layer is gonna be cognitive versus effective. Do you think your way into a decision, right?

27:10 Do you want to look at all the stats? Do you want to look at all the reviews? Do you want to understand like line by line what's happening? Or are you more emotional? Yeah. Right? Uh a lot of us in this city and other cities, in other cities where the creative is created, uh, are a little bit more emotional, right?

27:26 But that combination of being effective or more emotional and growth is only 11% of the US. So that means that if we're not understanding uh what that where that connection comes from, we're spending a lot of money on marketing and creative that's missing the audience that we're trying to understand.

27:47 And so I I just love brands to be able to know that they're there are really cool ways to understand that psychology so they can have that double-sided ROI and really put things out that doesn't limit uh the creative potential, but really connects in a meaningful way and makes people more open than they might be to trial something new.

28:06 And you just mentioned that you're an artist at heart, and also you're an artist when it comes to entrepreneurship, especially with hooks and what you've managed to build with hootology. Now, thinking about market research, thinking about in general marketing, and thinking about art and AI, where do you think we what do you think we're going to see in the future when it comes to how marketing agencies operate and how research and researchers like us respond to marketing strategies leveraging innovation and again leveraging respondents uh and consumers' feelings?

28:49 Do you think we're gonna see like a big change? I mean, I know you mentioned when it comes to AI implementation and uh the presentation you just saw, that a lot of the data points are much many more data points are now being used to understand consumers. What do you think the impact will be when it comes to how to connect with those consumers and where the marketing direction will head to?

29:12 Yeah. Um, well, Seda, I do actually have a crystal ball in my apartment. Um although I do not have the powers or know how to use it just yet. Um I I think if there's I I want to be able to sit here and look you in the eyes and say, this is confidently where we're gonna go. But I I think I I personally would be leery of anybody in this moment that was confident of that answer because so much is is completely uh in flux right now.

29:44 Yeah. And as it relates to marketing agencies and marketing, I I don't know what that's gonna look like in 10 years or in 50 years or 100 years, but I have a belief that the human is gonna remain very much uh in the loop and in the process, but it's obviously gonna look different, and I don't know what that is yet.

30:04 Um, on the decision intelligence side, um, the combining of uh the why uh with that what is obviously happening. It's happening in ways that I feel really great about, certainly with what we're doing and a couple others I think are doing phenomenal new work. Um and a lot of other folks that aren't using it in great ways, but I have comfort in uh I think the the ones who are getting it right kind of always end up succeeding in the end.

30:35 So there's just a lot of noise right now, and there's a lot of confusion, and there's a lot of fear, not just in in the the human base. I hate to say consumer-based, and I like to always remind the fact that like we're we're not talking about, we are talking about consumers, and it is your bottom line, yeah, and that matters.

30:49 But at the end of the day, we're understanding humans and we're creating things for humans, and we have to care about all of the stress that exists that you mentioned in the current in the world in this moment, and the fear of the people who have the jobs, right? It's like we have the fear of the folks who have are are are struggling with employment right now, but so much is changing.

31:11 Uh but I, as much of a curmudgeon as I can be, I I am optimistic about humanity, and I haven't I haven't lost that yet.

31:21 Well, thank you. I hope you never do. Obviously, the world needs more humanity in it. And I love that you also mentioned you um taught at a university here in New York City. I constantly try to connect with the younger generation, younger than than us, who are obviously going to be the future of market research and of marketing and partnering obviously with the big brands and strategizing directly with them.

31:50 And one of the things that you mentioned initially in our during our interview was that you just did not feel as confident in once again surveys and where they stand and how basically we understand consumers. And one of the big things that I took away as part of our conversation is that there's there are the gaps between obviously the surveys, which we know.

32:10 I mean, as a researcher myself, I cannot agree more with you. And then there's the emotional aspect of understanding the consumers and understanding their psychology. If you were to teach your own course at your own university and you had uh the younger audience right in front of you who aspires to be in market research, what would be those maybe pointers that you give them into what should they pay attention to in order to become a good researcher and not to see or miss any of the of the gaps that we've seen in our in our generation?

32:48 Yeah, there's there's two things. One that's related to I'll even say again, decision intelligence more so than market research. I I I think that as market researchers, we have almost taken ourselves out of the equation, and and there's a new wave of a much larger understanding of humanity that that fits more nicely under the umbrella of decision intelligence, right?

33:15 Getting the information to help the decision maker. But there's two two things. And one is is something that was first and foremost when I when I was teaching, uh, is I wanted my students to be comfortable being unsure. That was my number one goal. Uh, I had students uh from around the world, and I realized that the one consistency across all of our education systems is that we are taught not to speak unless we're sure.

33:42 And if if we are gonna break through and create anew, we have to become comfortable being unsure. And so I started to structure my class more and more around asking questions that I knew were unanswerable, so we could practice the muscle of going down a rabbit hole, questioning it along the way, and understanding we might hit, oh gosh, we can't do it that way.

34:07 Okay, no problem, no big deal. Uh let's try again, let's come back. What didn't work? Now, what but what did we learn? Let's start over. And that process is something that I realize I have had to adopt because I didn't come from a you know a free creative place and sort of how I grew up. And and so I know it's possible to shift to the that ability to believe if we just explore together, we're gonna get somewhere great.

34:35 And I saw time and time again how hard that was. So that would be the number one thing. The second thing, if I was teaching a decision intelligence course today, uh, would be I wouldn't even teach traditional research. Oh. I I would I would start from today. I would start from hey, here are the ways that include um modern technology, that include modern ways of um participating in providing your feedback, and I would then challenge uh the class to figure out a way of how to engage people in a way that doesn't have the opt-in bias of how current traditional research is being done.

35:21 Right. Right? Because right now, all we can say is um if if someone is doing a traditional survey, you know, 80% of people who chose to participate in surveys said this. And I am starting to question how reflective that is of the entire population. And so I would want my students to be part of the solution of how do we find a way to really hear everybody's voice?

35:47 And I think that that's our biggest obstacle uh against the synthetic data folks. But that's a conversation for a different day, I think.

35:55 There are so many conversations I want to cover with you. I think as one of the um maybe last few questions I have for you, I want to talk about value. I run into the constant question with my clients, oh, this is great. We're going to update the strategy for this consumer segment, because a lot of the times, I'm sure you guys probably do too, we analyze by consumer segment, um, especially when clients are selling a specific physical product.

36:26 How do brands currently approach the concept of value when it comes to understanding what value they bring into the consumer? And how does hootology specifically, how do you guys help brands with understanding the value that they provide to clients? Have you guys run into that question with some of your clients?

36:47 So the examples that you're giving, I feel like is an industry that might be more of a commodity, right? Where it's almost same-same price point might be the only difference, and you're, I hear you is defining value as just a monetary value. Um so the things that I would want to ask uh the brand about and kind of dig a little bit deeper around to add value would be around that piece around understanding the psychological connections of loyalty to brands.

37:18 Um, value and price point is only one, right? There are a lot of other much deeper needs that we all get in the decisions that we make to include our purchases. And so I would want to understand what that is and then how to provide that that not just the messaging value, but the actual authentic value of the brand in what it stands for, who it is, and that that those types of elements.

37:47 So I would want to expand the conversation before we started focusing on actual messaging to understand what that consumer base, where they fall on that psychological loyalty model and create around that core nugget. So, for example, the top two categories uh are categorize and consistency, right? That particular products consumer group may not fall into those categories, they might fall into something different.

38:13 Um, but across the US, those are the top two, and both of those are cognitive and status quo. Wow. It's 50% of the US, right? Wow. And so it uh but there's a slightly different message, right? One is around being functional, right? This is actually serves a function and is the best at serving the function, um, and the other is more around nostalgia and what it's what I've always had.

38:35 And that's a different message to be delivered, and that's just two of the 16 different classifications. And so that psychology really does uh really impact not just strategy but but messaging for a lot of brands.

38:48 That's uh great explanation. Thank you so much. If you had to define and tell us what the next 12 to 18 months look like for houtology, how would you describe them?

38:59 Yeah, it's it's a lot of growth. We have a really exciting team. Um, we have the moment in time where uh with everything being in flux and people understanding that they have to get it right, right? So whether it be strategy or marketing or product uh ideation, getting it right is pretty intense right now.

39:18 Uh and we have the ability to provide that assurance that that strategy is going to be right and gonna get the human on the other side what they actually want and fills them with joy for as much as a tangible thing or a service can fill us with joy. But it does. Not solely, but in addition to a full life and connection, things bring us joy.

39:41 And congrats on being uh owner of a business for 10 years. So you start in 2016 as 2026. I mean, I give you kudos as an entrepreneur, I know how hard it is. So congratulations to you and uh happy anniversary to the business. Thank you. November 16th. Oh, we'll put it on. Yeah. Um, Stephanie, it's been such a pleasure having you on.

40:03 Thank you so much for the amazing conversation. Appreciate it. To all of our viewers and listeners, make sure to follow the Money Signal Podcast from Main Street to Wall Street and check out our official website, moneysignal podcast.com. Stay tuned.