439. How to chase your dreams, and when to slow down ft. Grace Beverley

0:05 Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spike and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our twenties.

0:35 There has been one special individual that we have wanted to have on the podcast for a long time, someone who has had such an interesting career, trajectory and life that I think contains so many lessons for others in their twenties. She's basically lived many lives during this decade, which is a testament to her work ethic, but also I think just our general ability to evolve time and time again. You may know her as the founder of Tala Shreddy the Productivity Method, or if you are an OG fan, for her workout guides and plans. She is also the host of the podcast Working Hard at Oxford Grad.

1:10 A genuinely all around cool person who we know and love. Grace Beverley, Welcome to the Psychology of Your twenties. Thank you so much. We'll see you're so good at reading. You must have loved when they came to you in class and they were like, can you read this sentence? Pee? You did not start at once? Well, I practice no idea.

1:27 That's amazing reading compression. I'm going to put that up reading brandan one hand. Wid We were saying, like before we started that, when I read out the interest, you're like sitting right next week. Is it like singing somebody singing you happy birthday?

1:40 Yeah, but then also saying like ten nice things about you afterwards.

1:43 Yeah, yeah, it is a lot. Okay, briefly introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you are as a person, and then we're going to do some icebreakers. Perfect, So I'm grace. What am I going to say about myself? So?

1:58 I am an entrepreneur. I guess is probably like the most all encompassing way of referring to what I do. But it's, as you say, has evolved over the past decade or so. So I started my first business when I was in my first term or semester, I don't know what you would call it at university, and I have since started three more businesses, and I do a lot of investing and advisory work as well on other businesses that are kind of not in a similar space, but essentially, like my expertise is around consumer businesses and and kind of how they can appeal to their customers and grow over time and all of that, so I do a.

2:38 Lot of that work.

2:39 I also have a podcast, I do socials, I guess, just generally showing what I am doing in my day to day and my day to day job. I would consider the work within the businesses because that is what I do day to day. Sorry, by the way, if I'm very gurgly and acid refluxy, I'm.

2:56 Afraid there's literally nothing we can do about. There is something inside that There is a giant baby. It's like encroaching upon my esophagus. And yeah, I just a baby. Doesn't like it about Camascon that's in my bag. I can't even tell you really, Yea, when you guys hear a break and you know what we're doing. I love that way of describing you because you're a very busy woman.

3:25 And before we get into what makes you busy, we're gonna do a quick eyesbreaker. We ask these kind of questions of all of our guests. Are you ready, I'm so ready. Okay, Three to one favorite fast food order?

3:38 Okay, as you can tell, I'm really gonna.

3:45 Question. Fuck.

3:46 It's hard because I was veggie until quite recently, and like that's not very well, you know, catered for and in fast food. So now, like everything, every time I do try fast food, it's like a whole new world. So I don't know if it's my go to you know. Sorry, I'm really bad at being concise.

4:08 This one I think will be easier. Please love last thing you ordered online?

4:15 Oh so I'm renovating at the moment, and I have been. Honestly, Etsy's market value has gone.

4:21 Up by about a trillion this week based on me a lot of stock tip. Yeah sorry, this is a stock tip value. Grace is on the shop exactly.

4:31 Grace is on the shops. Get investing, not financial advice. But I yeah, I've been. I've been all over the trinkets. It's basically because we're so close now, I feel like I can actually start to buy the little things. I mostly want to save the little things for when you're in and you're like, oh, I could use something for that corner. But the things I've been going for a generally like art, little like bookends, vintagey things I'm finding little.

4:58 I got a label, a vintage label for like the laundry room door cute, which I liked. So you had just a hell of a lot of little trinkets.

5:06 Yeah, And are you so excitedly every time a package comes or you at this stage where like you don't know what it's going to be.

5:11 Well, I've ordered them to the house and I'm not currently in the house. So it's Christmas next Wednesday? Can okay? Last sunset you saw?

5:22 Oh sunset?

5:24 I went on a little girl's trip a few weeks ago, my girl's trip baby moon, we shall call it.

5:30 It's not actually it was for everyone, but that's how I was taking, I mean, last girl's trip before popping out a baby.

5:38 And we saw some beautiful sunsets there and it was just so lovely. It was kind of we were in this gorgeous village where you just walk down and you just sit at a restaurant. You order some calamari, you get everyone gets an approsperits apart from me. You just have a nice little chat and like a game of cards while the sun is setting, and that is just.

6:02 That was God's plan for us all along. Were you in Greece? Yes, Oh delightful. Yeah. What would your friend say? Is your most annoying habit? Oh? Where do I start? Uh?

6:16 Very bad at going with the flow? Me and the flow m hmm. Not good friends. Which is great because it does mean for every trip or whatever, like you know, they're like, oh, trip made out of the group chat. If I'm in the group chat. If you think this isn't making out of the group chat, you are very much mistaken, first of all. Second of all, the unfortunately will be run as a military operation. So yeah, depends how much you like that. Like great because you can, I guess put your feet up. But you never know what's going to happen when you open your what's up?

6:49 There might be twenty poles, there might be a spreadsheet, There might be a little tick box you have to fill in. There might be a Google doc. It's too much.

6:59 Yeah. Wait, when you and your husband go on trips, do you plan them? No? See this, I know, I love it all I know guys, sorry to post, but I one of my favorite things about my relationship is that in the big wide world.

7:15 I am like, you know, I'm feisty. I'm running around doing all my independent things. When I'm at home, I am baby. When I am in that relationship, I am I baby. Yeah, I baby, no do things? Baby, feet up, baby tommy tickles baby, baby, get fed, free time, baby.

7:37 Baby, get fed well.

7:39 Baby, don't know what airport going from, what terminal, what time plane? And that as someone who is like so aggressively type A and organizes every single other thing in their life like that is I never thought I could have that from relationship because I did kind of come to terms with the fact that I was like, this is just who I am. I can't expect anyone else to have such high standards of organization because obviously you're taking it too far.

8:04 But lo and behold, here he came. But here he came. There he was flying around the corner. And now I get to be baby. Yeah the best. Okay, two more texting or voice notes. I'm big on voice notes. I just think there has to be a regular cadence of them, and I think that I don't know, I think they need to solve, like to serve a purpose.

8:30 So, for example, if you're going quickly back and forth in the workday. Is it helpful to have a voice note? No, like, because I'm in a meeting.

8:39 You've made it very hard for me to go to listen to the meaning exactly and that I can't do that. Okay.

8:43 And a book you think everybody should read, which, okay, we were just going through some of some of the best books. I'm having a really good reading year, and I think it's only going to go from strength to strength if I'm able to read in a maternity leave, which my kindles a good old one handhold. So I'm, you know, hoping. I just read Broken Country, which, oh my god, was so good. I honestly so. I was on my actual babymon as you can tell, I had to have model the friend's baby moon and husband one's the solo one happening. Well, yeah, this is it. It's right here. It was my trip to this American and yeah, honestly, I just did not move all day. I was completely transfixed.

9:31 It was so well written. I have quite a strict over four rule on Goodreads. Not because I'm a snob, although you could argue, but because there are so many books out there that if I'm busy, the chances of me, like if I can just heighten the chance of me enjoying the book by it being above a four, because I think what I used to fall into the trap of a lot is that these really over hyped books, they still won't be an over a four if they are badly written. Like I am so sorry to everyone, but like I really am not a Colleen Hoover fan, and most of them are not over a four on good Reads and they're in lies the lesson, and I, yeah, so I generally just go for above a four and I have my whole want to read list, and then

10:19 I can just filter it by the average rating.

10:23 This is a mathematical affair. Yeah, I don't know why I've taken your.

10:28 Your quick fire questions so aggressively try to expand them into the entire podcast, But yeah, sorry for taking it so far.

10:36 That's all right, you know what, I feel like we're warmed up now though we know a bit more about each other. We kind of already did, but you know, the audience does. Let's talk about what you're here to talk about, which is business in life and work. When did you first start putting yourself out there online? Because that's kind of the beginning of this whole story, isn't it.

10:58 Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think like one of the maybe one of the misconceptions people get about my story is because it all started so long ago online, I think the assumption is that like the following was built first and then it was like, oh, let's throw businesses on top, which totally fair. Some of them were because I obviously didn't start a fought businesses at once.

11:16 That would be absolutely saying. And I am a little but like not that far, not that fast. And I started my first business in my first year at university. Well, actually I sold my first products online within kind of six months of starting my socials, and they had just been started as like an anonymous account where I was just posting about like my fitness journey. So I was interested in staying disciplined and going to the gym, and that was not something that I had within my wheelhouse.

11:46 It just wasn't something that I was capable of doing. And so I started the account as an I guess like an accountability thing while I was in my last year of sixth form. I don't know what you were just like the ast year of like, yeah, it's high school, but not if you like it's the two years after if you left at sixteen, so like the eighteen one, and I, yeah, I just started up the account. As I said, it was anonymous, I didn't show my face.

12:10 All of that started, and then started selling products on there a few months later. And then by the time I actually went to start what I consider now like my first business, I it was about a year later, and I guess I just had like a year experimenting with the because the first products I sold were digital ebugs and or just ebogs, and essentially I guess i'd kind of played around with that that year, being like, oh, okay, well if I put it twenty percent off or like a flash sale, then more people come in, or I put it like a bundle deal, then people buy, you know, people are more likely to buy two than one, or like you know, you do a limited thing whatever. So I kind of like come to terms with how some

12:54 of these things work. And so then by the time I started the business like a year later, I kind of realized that that was a viable option. And by that point I'd gone from having like one or two thousand followers to having.

13:10 I think around one hundred thousand. Yeah, and so that's when I started that. Okay, this brings me to some follow up questions. Did you show your face first or did somebody realize it was you? Oh?

13:24 They realized it was it, Like which is so I kind of showed my face out of like.

13:28 Well here I am. There we go games up and who was it? Do you remember? Oh?

13:34 There was a lot of chat school. And I think also because I was so I'd only joined that school a year before, so I wasn't It was a school obviously like with high school, like people had been there since they were like eleven. I had not, and so I was already kind of like new girly and then just yeah, word got around and I remember coming back to school after because it was like after the Easter holidays and I'd been like, you know, doing my posting and all of this, and then I just remember coming back in and being like, I hear whispers.

14:10 It's a gossip girl, the gossip girl real life, And it was very like what the fuck?

14:15 Because I think that now, even at the time, people not everyone had personal Instagrams, Like it wasn't really like we were on Facebook, Like people didn't have personal well a few people did, but it wasn't like like you'd be posting the toast you just buttered, like it wouldn't be like a filter. Yeah, like it's been unlikely to even be a selfie like car and pull yourself together, whereas there was me like don't want.

14:39 To them NYM today, here's the salon you know. Yeah, so it just wasn't wasn't that well regarded. I would say that sucks, But you made I feel like you've got the opportunity to basically have like a playground to understand business on your own.

14:55 One hundred percent at very low risk as well. I always I think that there's like a lot of narrative on mine around like take the leap, quit your job, do this, And it's like I was very fortunate to be in the position where I never needed to do that because a I started with digital products which have basically zero sum cost, like you don't really need to pay a lot to get into them. You just need to do the work on it. And like I paid fifty quid to a friend who is a graphic design student to like make them look nice before Canvra before Canva pre pre Canvra in the World PC And essentially that was yeah, because I was like, it's an EE book, it needs to look nice. But other than that, like there's no marginal cost. So if two people bought it,

15:34 it's cost me the same to produce as like one. So like every extra thing you sell is just cash. And so yeah, it was like I never needed. And then also I went on to university. Like I've never been full time. There was never a moment where I had to be like full time in the business before they'd actually you know, I then had three years of university to really like work it out.

15:56 Yeah that's crazy. And you went and studied music, yeah, which I think a lot of people may not know maybe, And what was was it? I was like I was doing some digging on the Wikipedia. I was like, this is sualism today. I hope you did the nice donation link to Wikipedia. Yeah. I always do. I always. They're always like we're begging you. Yeah, she will like like donate true cents. I'm like, oh, be rute not to I always do it. But what do you think about studying music and like the arts helped you with business? Oh, I don't know if that much. I think that the main Okay, main things I think I really learned from the like music background.

16:41 Worth saying as well, that my degree was specific. It was all lessa based, so it wasn't actually like performance.

16:46 I imagine you having to sing like for your own nerves. Okay, and that's a name, but no it was. It was so it was like the areas I specialized in were like politics and philosophy of music, so music so like during censorship eras or whatever. I anyway, so I think that the two main things that it taught.

17:14 Me were one, it was a very because of the university I went to, it was a very high workload course. So essentially it was I had like ten thousand words a week for three years, and then none of that counted. Well, it counted in that if you didn't do it, you were getting kicked out, but it didn't count towards your grade until the last month. Yeah, and you were consistently examined, but not for but for like your place rather than not even exactly. And so then it's all like culminates in this big horror. And then the other thing I think that music and that musical background I guess really taught me was like I think you face so much rejection doing music and the arts generally, there will always

18:01 be people who are far better than you, like always, and you have to work so hard and put in so many extra hours and it's not very well. It definitely wasn't where I was like considered like cool or prestigious or reputable or like whatever it might be. And you did that at the same time, and I had to spend so many hours outside of school and university like doing the extra and then you were just constantly shut down, shut down, like the entire time. So it teaches you to have a very good relationship with rejection because literally just constantly like I don't remember, like this is norm due to be a soul story, but like as in like I don't remember a single time when like, well there are probably like two three times total where

18:40 I went for something and actually got it and it was, you know, the thing I'd really worked for most of the rest of the time, Like you do a fuck load and my lad sweat, Yeah, well, thank.

18:49 You very much. Exactly.

18:52 I'm really good at those like essentially where you do a fuckload of work and then you don't get anything for it, and in fact you're kind of shut down and they're like, you know, the rest of your life, they're not going to be like, oh, you're really bad at this, but like you're kind of being consistently told like other people are better than you. And I think because I did that from so early, Like I worked like a theedral from when I was eight, which essentially was like like twenty or so hours on top of schoolwork every week of music, and then like from that point onwards, it's like it's actually just like a I think the main thing it taught me is just like a crash course in being happy with rejection or just

19:30 like being okay and being able to work really really hard and then get just be shut down over and over and.

19:36 Yeah, which is huge in business and huge in entertainment one.

19:39 Hundred percent, and just like I think, a very good life skill, like you have a we see all of that, you know, TikTok stuff for example on like rejection exposure therapy, and I I think actually I saw it a lot, like I wait, you come across people who maybe haven't had as much rejection, and therefore the rejection they do have really really shut them down. It's totally natural reaction but actually if you're consistently like even now, there have been so many things that I mean, you know, obviously it wouldn't be public, but like so many things that I've interviewed for or tried out for, like whatever it might be that I would really want, and it's like if it just comes through and it's a rejection, it's.

20:20 Like cool, yeah, yeah, next, yeah, exactly. I've been doing this recently where I've been like emailing, emailing guess that I really want and they are ridiculous. Guess ridiculous. Otherwise the answer is no, yeah, let's go exactly, you don't take And I will say the other week, I was like smobiles assistant said no, and she actually emailed me back, and I was like that's a win. Yeah, it was like an email back was a win. And I genuinely was like throughout all this rejection, like the fact that I've gotten through in somebody's evening. Maybe my favorite is when they come back with something that like it's actually unnecessary color on top of the rejection, it's like, oh, yeah, we really don't like this type of thing. We don't.

21:01 They're like, oh, okay, but we're not prioritizing this kind of exposure and not well, actually, we just don't like you at all. She's actually got really not certain baths, but like she actually really terrible experience. Yeah exactly, and yeah, but it was really nic They sent me this lovely man. I was like, that is the biggest win. A direct no was the biggest win. And I was like the hundred set of my character.

21:23 And I think that, like for anyone who maybe knows that that is an area that they haven't got enough exposure to, like purposefully putting yourself in that track, I think is one of the best things you can do because until you're used to rejection, you're going to continuously, continuously be scared of it and also probably have an underlying fear of even going for things where you think you might be rejected. Whereas like we know that like the surface area of luck thing, for example, is all around like putting yourself in positions where you could get lucky, like not that way but what you've got, but like essentially where like we've said it, like you miss one hundred percent of the shots you don't take, So if

22:03 you're not putting yourself in those environments, you don't know whether Yeah, they wanted these someone with these ten qualifications and you only have three. But actually they decided you were better at these other things. And like, you never would have known if you hadn't put yourself there. And if you're scared of rejection, that's going to be very hard.

22:17 Yeah, it's a huge thing to learn speaking of something that wasn't a rejection maybe, but I think was a great success. When did you get the idea for Tala and where did the name come from? Oh?

22:33 Yeah, I can tell you. It was a very boring Sorry, sorry, I'll try.

22:36 It was roll it out, let's go.

22:38 So yeah, I started Tyler in my final year at university. Actually before that, like the month before that month I told you about where everything counts towards your degree.

22:48 So that was really smart. Wag did you do that well?

22:50 Because I was meant to exactly I love it except breaking. No, it was meant to essentially launch a good while before then. It just kept getting pushed for a number of tif reasons like manufacturing delays, a number of these different things, and then I was just like, we just have to get it out because I'm paying people and we just we need to launch basically, and it just happened to fall at the worst possible time. But rewinding back, I got the idea for the business about a year before.

23:14 I guess like I was very much like within the space, like I was wearing a lot of active where I was, I was a student and I went to the gym, so like, obviously I was wearing active most of the time, and I had really strong opinions on like how things fit and how things felt. And I felt like a lot of I felt like a lot of designs within the industry were either like super revealing, which actually I don't find that flattering on me. We do, you know, gorgeous, like strappy bras and like all of that, and they look amazing, but I think that, like I, it felt like it either needed to be teeny tiny or it needed to be kind of frumpy, and I wasn't. I was like, actually, that's not where I like to kind of sit in terms of the designs I go for.

23:57 But also one of the main things was that I'd moved away from fast fashion consumption in my day to day life, so I just wasn't. I wasn't, Like, I don't know, I used to terrible, but I used to like have contracts with like PLT and a number of different fast fashion houses and all of that. Like with my with fast fashion houses was really like blowing them up in the Alvy Mate like direction.

24:18 But yeah, and they ran exactly but I had essentially had contracts with them, and that was a big part of my job.

24:28 And I literally stopped that overnight, Like I canceled all my contracts. I lost like seventy five percent of my income because I was just like, this is not something I want to stand by. I really don't like it. I feel shit every time I post about it. Yeah, and then I kind of moved away from it in my day to day like actual consumption, and I just realized that active where was like a glaringly big gap in that way because you don't because you think of it as like a necessity for the thing you're doing, you kind of look less at it, being like a cherry on top, and therefore you're like, oh, I'm not really thinking about the material or who's made it or any of that. And so I had kind of realized that I'd moved away from that in my day to

25:07 day but not necessarily my active wear. And then the biggest solutions that I was finding from my day to day, which were things like rental and pre owned and like amazing ethical brands.

25:16 All of this were either not really.

25:19 Available in active wear for reasons like pre owned and rental people aren't as keen on for active Well, yeah they do exist, but like, yeah, you know stuff probably well you probably had like that's the thing, Like there are solutions for it, but it's probably not going to reach a mass market change level.

25:35 No.

25:35 And then also with the ethical brands, there were some brands that had done some really amazing things, but again they were like they were probably about fifty percent more price wise, and so I wanted to look into creating an option that was granted, like not about being small and artisanal. It was kind of can we do better at scale? So like, can we have some baseline assumptions in terms of like what we are and aren't going to do in terms of fabrics, in terms of factories, in terms of dyeing processes, in terms of sampling, in terms of packaging, in terms of all of these different things, because I think people think of you know, those types of things in terms of just materials, whereas it's actually

26:16 so much more behind the scenes, like zero percent to landfill pledges, not restocking during sales and therefore just you know, trying to sell loads and loads of stuff at sale prece like all of that, and so we kind of I wanted to create an active where brand that ticked those boxes and also was like you wouldn't see a difference in terms of like fit. Yeah, and it wasn't fifty percent more expensive. So it took a long time because that's quite hard. And I think that you know, there are a lot of our ideals around what you would want from lots of brands you shop from. I think realistically a lot of the time they haven't been done for a reason because it's like not maintainable. But we yeah, I kind of got to starting that about

26:57 a year before it ended up launching, and then launched that, as I said, in May of twenty nineteen, and now now seven years later, crazy and she's thriving.

27:11 She is driving. I was there the other day. Oh yeah, when you're in Australia. I sent you a message. Oh yeah, yeah, it was like checking up on your first baby. Well thenk you they was either us talk members are really nice, everyone's love. Yeah, she was I'm going to give her a shout out. She had read hair. That's what I remember.

27:25 Was it at the Carnaby Street store or the Westfield one, the one in Carnoby Street. She was delight there you go.

27:30 Everyone's amazing. Yeah, I think so again. I mean, like it obviously separate, but like we with the store expansion, for example, it was like, how do we create an in person environment that reflects are online and kind of like who we are in HQ and all of that like really feels in that way. Rather than just being like, yeah, we'll just hire these people in as quickly as possible.

27:53 It was like, no, it's like we're like a you know, we're.

27:55 Like a Girl's Girl brand. We're like her. We know how we want you to feel in the clothes, we know how we want you to feel in the shop, so like we've got to represent that in the physical space. The other thing I liked about the Tower store and then one move on to a whole podcast on this, I really liked that, like you guys had all the sizes out mm hmm. I was like, oh, thank god. Yeah, because I'm a big conscious decision Oh great, I was like, this is amazing. Because I hate when you go to a store it's like, so do you have what's the biggest size you have? Yeah? Can you get it for me?

28:27 And it's like it just kind of always sucks. Yeah, they I don't know. It's not a good feeling.

28:31 Yeah, of course, And like you know, there've been lots of I would say, like learning cubs because again it's like you're you go from running like what's an online store where everything is in one warehouse, it is getting shipped out from one place, and so everything's in one place to even like everything new you launch, needing it to get to one store, but you also need like the exact right size ratio you don't know who's going to come in that day, and like knowing that you need like you can estimate it, but like how many of those pieces do you actually need in the store across how many sizes, different colors, like all of this like it's you know, I'm sure we won't have got it right for everyone, but it's a it's been a

29:07 massive like learning curve, and I'm very proud of like the reviews and kind of love we get from how people feel.

29:15 Let's take it down. Let's take a turn for the worst. Yeah, it's no more compliments, no more good stuff you're doing for the environment, women's stuff. Confidence. What's been the biggest like oh fuck moment of running a business? Oh, there have been so many. They are every day, they are relentless. No, I think, I mean, I actually do think that, like that is one of the most defining parts of having a business, is like you are constantly just like on the floor.

29:42 She just like why like more and more of this, Like my propensity to deal with stress now I think is so high actually for the bad reason of the fact that like shit is thrown at me every single day, like big, big stuff, you know. And I think that's just part of having a business. And then you adding more businesses, it's kind of like just increases the cadence of these types of things coming up. There are many different ones, Like there have been big o fuck ones, Like in like twenty twenty twenty twenty one, tla Very nearly went bye bye, and that was like a good year long battle like to and within that, like I can't remember how long it would have been, but it would have been like around two months of like working

30:29 out whether we're going to make payroll every single week and being like.

30:32 Right, that would be the most stressful part I can oh, yeah, like it's okay if I go bankrupt. Yeah.

30:37 Well I had times when I was literally like I would pay salaries out of like my Monzo account, like as in like you know, I had like one payroll that we weren't going to make and I was like fuck And I sold my car the next day to like someone I found online, which was literally like a what was it? It was like a they'd come to your house and they'd just buy a car a few and it was like I don't even know if this is but it was like, as so long as I just want to make account before they leave, I was like, sounds.

31:02 Sounds like my solution for the week.

31:04 So yeah, there have been like big like big, terrible like prolonged, very life ruining at the time kind of things to go through, and then there were the small ones every day like there's you know, the other day we had our like we did like a hotel tala. It was kind of like it.

31:27 I saw it was so beautiful, thank you. It was gorgeous, thank you.

31:30 It was essentially like a campaign that we did, like what Tala would be like as a hotel and then hosted some people there. And you know, even on the first day of that, like we sent two of our team members early to set everything up with like all of the stock and the decorations and like the cute little touches and everything, and five out of ten suitcases got lost and ended up like floating around Europe. And like the whole reason you send people early is that they can like set things up.

31:58 It's just a little bit of chale.

32:00 Yeah, yeah, so you know, that type of stuff happens all the time. Same with I went out to New York Fashion Week. We were doing a New York Fashion Week activation and I was there for forty eight hours before I had to go somewhere else and I literally landed and my one suitcase that I had with me was lost and they were like, we can get it back to you in forty eight hours, and I was like, perfect, We've got our New York Fashion Week thing tomorrow, so it should be sooner.

32:26 Yeah, have we considered teleporting? Yeah? Did they pay for that?

32:32 They don't think I ended up getting any compensation.

32:34 Oh, this is my this is a random hill I die. But Airline compensation. I found a business on it though. Oh yeah, I will always get a compensation from airlines. Really, Oh I.

32:43 See, I'm good at a stunny worded email around something like that.

32:45 Oh no, I have beef with probably every airline. I'm not going to go into them, but one, and they spannsored the podcast and I love that's the only reason. Oh my god. Really yeah, literally, I had anything Actually i'll tell this story but I won't name names, but an airline who I had like the most despicable experience with with my dad randomly was like, we really wanted to one to the podcast and I was like no, and my team was like, was like, you really should do.

33:11 I was like, I would never, I would never sell my soul because I yeah anyways. Yeah.

33:18 Also, then when I flew to my next place, they literally I was like, don't fly out to New York. Keep it in London. I'll just get it when I'm back in London because I only need it for the next forty hours. And then literally as I flew off to the next place, it flew from London to New York.

33:31 I was like, Okay, I know, and it's so hard because it's like I also will say, I'm like every single person who works for an airline, I'm like, I love you. Oh yeah, I'm like you guys do that probably a very hard job of like the only time people want to talk to you is when they're really mad. So it's always being but it's stuff like that where it's like the coordination, where it's like their policies and it's like this policy just fuck need to We'll move on from airline politics. That was my favorite favorite publical question. Yeah, we can go on for ages. That's to be out part two episodes. Come back for the part two. You have such a natural talent for business. Have you ever been like, I'm done with that and what do you

34:14 think you do instead? Oh?

34:16 So, I'd say there have definitely been times where I've considered walking away, not recently and not since I've kind of got my life balance a little bit more on track and therefore like moved away from burnout, and you know, there are still little bits and times where I'm like, for fuck's sake, but I do genuinely, absolutely love what I do, and I feel very privileged to be able to do what I do. And also I've built my career.

34:39 I've like kind of reverse engineered my career towards exactly what I want it to be. Like I kind of fell into being an influencer at the one point and then was like, this is I do not like again massive privilege. But it's like I do not like the day to day of this. I do not like needing to be liked in order for my career to be work like doing well. I do not like into my personal life for my career to be doing well all of these things. And so literally built myself an office job in the businesses and like, so I do think that I've like my job is made for me, like it's very tailored to me, which I feel very lucky for for about because.

35:20 There is luck involved. There'd be luck baby be lucky baby lucky. Yes, sometimes yes, But I think that the you know, it absolutely takes it.

35:31 It's tall, and I think that there have you know, there have honestly been so many times where I'm like what why have I like, why why did I need to make it so hard for myself? Just because like there's not really a reason to take it this far? Like why four businesses? Why not one business? You know, why like, why do you need to do this? But I think realistically, as I've said, it's all built for me, and it's all been built around me, Like I've built it that way, and I feel very fortunate too, Like I think one of the biggest privileges in life is being able to do work that you love and that you genuinely love, because like everyone needs to work, or most people need to work to be able to actually

36:14 enjoy it and feel like you are day to day able to use your brain and kind of engage in the way you want to and be able to make money from it.

36:25 Like I feel like that's very very lucky. Such a good reminder as well.

36:30 Yeah, and so yes and no, you probably find me some days where I'm like, yeah, absolutely, I need.

36:36 To get out of it to the choir I got, Yeah exactly. I like something that you mentioned before, which is, you know, you've you've spent your entire adult life online at this point, how do you keep parts of you just for you? You've obviously made a conscious decision about that in many ways.

36:55 Yeah, So, as I kind of alluded to, then I made a DECI is at one point to basically decide. I was like I'm not going to be an influencer, which you could absolutely still put me in that box.

37:04 Now I probably wouldn't there, to be honest, thank you. I don't know.

37:09 I think that like the as a tangent, like the negative correlate. The negative kind of connotations of influencer is very much directly correlated to the fact that it is one of the only industries where women out perform, oh yeah, and make more money than.

37:26 Men and is a bad term. But if it's not what your job title is, yeah, no, no, of course.

37:32 But I think that, like I try and get comfortable with the fact that, like, technically it is what I'm doing in you know, certain areas, and like, probably the only reason we have these negative connotations around it is because women outperform in that area and therefore naturally it's easy.

37:47 Yeah, it must be so easy, and it must be.

37:49 Vapid, and it must be all of these different things. Any Way, I.

37:54 Kind of decided that.

37:56 That wasn't for me in that I didn't enjoy the day to day, as I said, so I built myself, you know, I deleted all my videos off YouTube overnight and kind of that was where my main earnings were and I stopped really posting properly online for like two three years and concentrate on building businesses. I was like, I want to build these into like what can actually sustain me, and the team is a job, so double down on that. And I think that, you know, that has enabled me to be in the fortunate position where I don't need to share anything that I don't want to share in order to make income.

38:35 And so I feel like I'm in a nice position now where I can share what i'd like to share and what I find would be helpful to share and feel happy doing so. And I feel much more happy doing so knowing that there is not no obligation, and so I think that actually has I don't know, probably in a weird way recently, like some people over the past few years have been like, oh, I think you're sharing more, and I was like, yeah, no, I probably am, because I don't feel like backed against a wall in a way of like, oh God, I've got to give you this vulnerability so that you actually like me, like it's an exchange, and I don't want that, like I don't want to need to give you all of the five bad things that are happening in my life for

39:15 you to give me basic human respect, and so I think that I'm, I guess, in a happy place around that now it's organic. With that in mind, there has been things that you have shared online that are very, very personal and it's obviously come from an organic place for you to share it, including a mischaracter you had last year. Did you think about not sharing that? Yeah?

39:39 Absolutely, And I didn't share it for a good while after it happened, in not a good while, like a few months, wow. And I think that I was driven by a few reasons for sharing it. I think that like one part of it was like, definitely, and I wouldn't stand by this is a good reason sharing, but I definitely like it was meant to be a really intense work month and I still worked a lot. But I think that like I just hadn't been myself and hadn't like done things to the best of my ability that month, and so I kind of felt like I was like, oh, by the way, guys, this is why I've been so shit. But that wasn't the main reason for sharing. The main reason was more the fact that I found it so insane, how there was so much

40:26 taboo around it. And how it was automatically like you're pregnant, yay, oh you miscarried, all, let's not talk about that like that is the blame is on the woman, the kind of I don't know, the onus for everything was on the woman. The taboo is on them. They mostly can't tell their workplace because there's still loads of associations around it, and they don't know if they're actually going to get the support and if that's just going to make them feel even shitter, and you know, whether it's something that they even want to say, because then their employer knows they're trying for a baby, like all of these different things.

40:59 And I kind of just wanted to talk about it because it was actually so fucking hard to go through that I just was like, I can't believe that this in any way is made to be like made out to be not necessarily like my fault, but kind of like we shouldn't talk about it because it might embarrass other people or it might make people feel awkward. And I even had that from like some people quite close to me, when I was like, never even like saying the word or acknowledging the thing or even like asking how I was like it was very you know, and I just thought, God, that's crazy, Like people for years and years decades haven't said anything about it ever because it's just a taboo subject. And I just thought, I

41:46 don't like taboo subjects that are taboo and create shame for the woman when there's no reason for it.

41:54 And it's like this final frontier of grief almost that we are yet to really have any good language for speaking about, Like we don't have great language for talking about grief in other areas or mental health in other areas or anything. But for this one, it does feel like, really, you don't see anybody talk about it. Yeah, and that must have been really scary for you to step into and be like, if I don't see anybody talking about it, how are people going to react? Yeah?

42:20 No, absolutely, And I think that I do believe that when you have a platform, you do actually have some sort of responsibility to, well, you have more propensity to make the world a place that the place that you would want it to be, so you have a sort of responsibility to Okay, well, no, you don't need to share things that you don't want to share.

42:40 Like that.

42:41 I don't think is owed to the general public. But I do think that if you can do something to make the world a place that's more reflective of the place that you'd want it to be, than like why not. And so yeah, it was a decision at the time because I wanted to. I wanted it to be something where you can say that without like I felt like I couldn't even say it without like ruining someone else's day.

43:06 And I was just like, I get that, But at the same time, like, if I need to disclose this to you for some reason, I need to not go into overdrive of like, oh, I'm so sorry, but it's also fine. It's fine, you know, like you don't get you know, it's okay, and it's like it's really difficult.

43:21 And every time you swallow it, it's like, I'm so worried about burdening this person one time, and it's like and I burden myself every day, Yeah, every single day. Were you worried about a particular kind of reaction? Was the one that scared you the most that people might have I think.

43:33 Quite because it was so fresh in terms of like emotions, and I think, you know, it will be for a long time. I think I'm always worried about like the Internet having like fuel with which to you know, throw it you when is desired. So like, for example, I did a post a few weeks later that was like talking about the risk of reform coming into power in the UK and the different impacts that would have on essentially society in like various different ways, and one of someone commented on that being like you should be concentrating more on keeping your babies alive than.

44:14 Talking about this. I'm just laughing about. Obviously it's a lot of horror comment, but it's also so outrageous that I was like, like I literally saw it while having backfast with my husband, and I literally like choked, Like I was like, oh my god, you're not going to believe this. And I was just like that, to be fair as you can tell, like that type of thing doesn't really affect me, because you've got to be so fucked up for that to actually look it anywhere out of your keyboard, like for you to be brain email brain, like unless that's a violent, intrusive thought that you literally cannot keep under control. Like the fact that you've now put that onto paper and like got that out is just I have to feel so sorry for you because

44:54 you must be so miserable. And I know people say that it's like they must be miserable, they must be miserable.

44:58 It's like I don't believe that all online commentary must be from people who are miserable. But it's literally like wow, like wow, you must be so hurt inside about like I don't know who didn't listen.

45:09 To you when, but like wow, I almost see that as like soo like sociopathy. Oh yeah, I genuinely want this person. I want to put them in a little cage and I'm just like, what's wrong with you? Yeah? Literally to have a look around like that's that's a good I actually very few things like me speechless. Oh that was. I was like, what was your husband's reaction?

45:31 Because yours was like, oh my god?

45:32 Was he just like he was quite angry about it, and he was like how I think. I mean he'd obviously gone through it as well. I think he'd you know, seen me going through that, and then was like fucking hell, like that is terrible. But I thought it was so bad that I actually found it hilarious, like as in like I send it to some of my friends and I.

45:51 Was like, oh my god, and my.

45:53 Friends are sending me paragraphs back like this person is like probably, and I was like, guys, I'm laughing, like I'm literally laughing because you go that it's a horseshoe, like come like so derayed. That is just back to money. Actually, like you you have more problems than I have. If you are sending the anonymous account. Probably yeah, probably like Psalms thirteen in the literally love that neighbor. Sorry not to laugh at the end of what was a heavy conversation.

46:23 Sorry innes sing song voice.

46:27 Shit again the thing you're going to be thinking about. I know I'm going to go home and be like, dang it. Sorry not to not to make you feel but I just think that comments crazy. And you're expecting again now, and I get so many questions about becoming a mother in your twenties. I haven't had that experience yet, and I don't actually get to talk to many people who had. So what is surprising you most about that whole chapter in your life, from finding out you were pregnant for the first time to now carrying your second child.

47:01 I think what's been surprising me most generally is like, how outrageous and varied and intense. All the different symptoms of pregnancy are that are our one hundred percent kept under wraps for a reason. And I would have one hundred percent still decided that I wanted a baby and that I wanted to be pregnant, But at the same time, like the fine print is not clear, and I think we like again, it's like our sex education for women is so terrible.

47:28 Sorry, I'm not crying. It's reflex the role. I want more sex. Like this sex education for women and actually probably more for girls is like so so terrible and so fixated on like don't have sex, don't get pregnant. Like okay, well what about when we're talking about like if you choose to get pregnant or you find yourself in a situation where you are pregnant, Like what's actually happening?

47:55 What are all the different symptoms? Like there are some fucked symptoms that are absolutely kept from you. Like what the I think it's the average woman ends up with three point one decayed teeth after pregnancy because the baby just takes all the nutrients from all your calcium, like everything from you. There's like all sorts like your absoplit in half sometimes they'll have to be surgically put back together.

48:17 But like all of the I honestly think I'm antipr for pregnancy, and I don't mean to be that way because I do think that like, if you would like to be pregnant, then hopefully you're able to get pregnant. I also do just think that it is presented to women as a a necessity, be a kind of well, this is just the way it is. And mark my words, if the symptoms were on the other gendered foot, there would be better research, there would be better medication, there would be better management, all of these different things. There would probably be paid pregnancy leave, like all of these different things. I just think it's not being made clear.

48:57 And I think that anyone who wants to have a child would still decide to do so. It's just that there is not a lot of well spread educational information. So I'd say say that's the biggest shocking case. It's not clear. By my general demeanor. It's like people will climb the mountain, but they should know what's on the mountains well exactly, they still to do it, like I still would have done it, but at the same time, like you don't need to be lying to me about like all the things I'm going to go through, and of course that is to somewhat our responsibility to find out, but at the same time, like it's a major medical event that's essentially considered twelve. Yeah, you're a girlypop so yeah, sorry,

49:37 teeth anymore, Well the baby took them. Yeah, obviously. My boyfriend went to the movies the other day and he came back and he was like white faced. He was like, do you know that women proove themselves when they give birth? And I was like, yeah, he goes seventy five percent of them do yeah, And I was like yeah, I know.

49:58 And he was like, they need to tell what people about that, and I was like, that's why. That's the lost of the problem. I was going to say. I know. He went on a whole Google page and I was like, and this is why that's important as well, because often the burden is on you experiencing it as a mother, women around you, hearing those feeling scared, never like men just knowing the woman's experience. Well slightly tied to that, I read an article I watched a tick shop.

50:23 Right the other day, very very interesting and it was essentially about the research gap between men and women when it comes to parenting and why it creates default parenthood and why it creates therefore, like essentially the uneven society in which we operate, where women are expected to take on a significant amount of unpaid labor in comparison to men, particularly when it comes to things like parenting, but also housework and all of this. And it was essentially just saying, how like women, because pregnancy is happening to them, will take on the burden of education around birth, around pregnancy, around parenting, around like baby's health, all of these different things, and then they take on that burden and that naturally

51:03 isn't replicated in the men because pregnancy isn't happening to them, Like ideally they would see it as such if their partner is pregnant, but it's actually not naturally the case, even i'd expect in some progressive relationships. And therefore there is this research gap, which means that when by the time you have the baby, the woman spends a lot of time educating the man and maybe correcting on certain things like oh, you meant to support the head, or you meant to do this, or like whatever it might be, which results in the default parent becoming the mum despite the fact that you both had a baby at the same time, and this obviously naturally then goes around in circles in terms of who does more parenting, childcare, like

51:41 all of these different things. And I think that's so interesting again because it's like pregnancy is seen as a women's issue and it's not advertised thoroughly at all regardless, So.

51:53 What are we gonna do about it? What's so, what are we gonna do about work? Grace is gonna make some tiktoks? That's what are we gonna do about it? It's gonna make everyone hear about it. I can't remember what that meme was, but it was like being the opposite of someone who suffers in silence, like you will be forced or like you know, quiet interests or all of that, like you will be forced to her about what I'm interested in and what I'm reading about. Yeah, I'm afraid I want men to make those tiktoks as well.

52:15 I feel like, yes, I just think that would be just so valuable to you. Here's what I'm learning. I know I want to like them. I like to repost them. Yeah, she's fighting the good fact. Yeah, exactly. I have two more questions for you about motherhood, and then one more question. That's three, three more questions. I know, thank you. Another thing on my on my resume. You're having a girl.

52:42 What are you most excited to do with her? I don't know. I think like my biggest, like one of my biggest life aims. And I think this maybe surprises people because I think we do group particularly women into boxes. You're like, you're a career woman, or you're like a mumsy woman, or you're like this.

53:02 But like my biggest like aim in life is to have a close knit, loving family, Like that is just like my driving force, and I feel very excited about the opportunity of building that with my husband and building it to be exactly what we have hoped. And I have no doubt that it's going to be very you know, there are going to be many things that don't go to plan. But at the same time, like I just can't wait, Like I can't wait to for my life to get a bit smaller for a while, Like I really I think I've concentrated for a very long time on not making my life as big as possible, because that's not been the driving force, but like reaching everything I want to reach in life and like kind of really working so hard to get there, and of course

53:53 I'll continue to do so. Like I feel very strongly about being very open about the fact that I will be going back to work looking full time.

54:01 And I think that it's insane that anyone who would know me or see what I've done be surprised at the fact that I will have child's care or the fact that I will you know, be working, or any of these things. But I just think that, like I really can't wait for the concentration just to be a bit little bit simpler, and like I just know, like all I care about generally is as much as you know I care about work and all of this, Like that's kind of one side. The main things I care about are like relationships and the people around me, and I just can't wait to build our little, oh little family.

54:40 I actually saw this quote from Steve Crah I think You'll love, which is he was talking about how when he had a kid, he was like everything in my professional life got easier because speaking of failure is like I didn't care if they didn't like me or if I failed because I had I had all this well plain too. Oh my god, I'm so excited for you.

54:59 I want to feel the episode with this question, which is, what is one piece of advice you have for people in their twenties that we haven't spoken about today? So much? There's so much I want to say. Can I split them up? You can do as many as you want. I feel like you are for an hour. So were you going to start that two now? Okay?

55:21 Career wise, yeah, I think that there's a lot of focus right now on getting as far as you can in your twenties and being as big as you can in whatever sense that might be. So, for example, if it is impressive in your industry to be freelanced rather than to be within a company, there's such a rush to get there. There's such a rush to like get those accolades or establish those things that make you be taken more seriously. I honestly could not recommend enough, and I wish I'd done more of this. Learning as much as you can on employers' money, like upskilling, trying new jobs, work in different types of teams, talking to as many people as possible about their jobs, like your career is much longer than it's made out to be on TikTok.

56:10 And that's not me kind of patronizing and saying like you, but like that is a lot of the media we're consuming and we're seeing, you know, success looks like this at thirty. Your career is going to be a hell of a lot longer than thirty. And if you want to enjoy it and to have longevity and all of that, the more you can do to truly learn as much as possible and to put yourself in Like what about imagining an amazing life at forty fifty sixty That might not be about working all the time, But how are you going to get there? Is it going to be jumping ship at twenty three when actually you don't know enough to do that. No, I believe so strongly that we're it's very glamorized online to sell a certain dream

56:51 around a certain type of career, and actually the best careers are built over time, based on accumulating expertise and contacts, a network overall, and skills and passions, and so focus on that rather than like a big shiny title or a big move to freelance rather than employed or whatever it might be for your industry. I think that's very important career side, and I think that's often missed. Then on the other side general life, I just think, like, don't let anyone make you feel like you're behind again.

57:27 We have such a focus on like thirty hunder thirty, you know your life ending, then like all of this, I'm so fucking excited to turn thirty, Like there's so much I'm looking forward to that I just got like, I think this twenties is like a hot pot of kind of just being thrown in there and being like a chieve it's much as possible and like.

57:44 Find out who you are and like make some friends in that fallen out and get marine and have.

57:49 A ami and like all of these different things, and it's just like again, life is long, hopefully, and like you're just at the beginning of it. Like, don't let other people's need to rush make you rush. Because I think as well that we have like this warped perception of time. And if you're aiming to do xyzz by thirty, then okay, you get to thirty and then what like what happens? Then don't give yourself that like Olympic gold medal syndrome where you're working towards all these things, or you're like just staying in a relationship because you don't want to be single at thirty, and then you get to thirty. Okay, now what you're pushing for another year and another year and another year and another year. You're

58:28 only at thirty four, so like as in like start thinking long term and start thinking about like what you actually enjoy and what you want your life to look like rather than what you want other people to perceive it as.

58:41 Oh I love that advice. Thank you, especially as somebody whose career is dead at thirty. Psychology of your twenty Oh my god, what you to do? I know, I really screwed the proach on that one. Thank you so much for such a wonderful, wonderful advice and such wonderful Canada. You're genuinely just a delightful person to talk to. Thank you so much. That's very kind. How are you? Thanks girl?

59:01 I honestly think that, like when people have a certain I'm going to give you one more compliment. Are there ready? Yeah? Yeah? Then you can then get out. Yeah. I really do think that, Like you see somebody online and you're like, oh, they seem really nice, and there's always I don't have this feeling, but like there's always the thing of like I wonder if they're like that in real life, And it's like you are somebody I can say for people listening, you're a fan of Grace, like one hundred percent like that, if not better in person that you just have such a You just exude such a brilliance. So I appreciate you coming on the psychology of your twenties. Thank you for having you and the baby, me and the baby,

59:33 the first baby on the podcast. What do you have to say for yourself? Just acid refo. I'm going to leave everything in the description Where to listen to working hard, Where to buy a piece of Taler's workout gear. I honestly swear by it. Your cinch single it tops, Oh ye, so amazing. I have like three colors brown, black, blue, if you want to by my wardrobe will and uh yeah, everything else that we can find you at. As always, guys, thank you for listening. If you've made it this far, leave a little baby emoji in the Spotify comments down below to wish Grase congratulations and good luck on her on entering impending birth, and I know I didn't want to be like impending birth. And otherwise. You can also

1:00:19 watch episodes like this on Netflix. You can follow us on Instagram substack. It's all going to be down there, But until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very very soon.