Is the Millennium Happening Right Now? | Michael Rowntree

0:52 Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this program, we're talking about the millennium. It's gonna be an exciting program you guys stay tuned. Guys, I'm here with Michael Roundtree, author of the book The World Made Right. That book is now available in the link in the description, or you can subscribe to the newsletter and we're gonna give away a couple copies of The World Made Right to those who have subscribed over there.

1:14 We've done tons of episodes here. Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, Who's the Harlot. We go through all kinds of content, but now we're tackling one of the big baddies of the subject of Revelation, Millennialism. And it and it feels like it's uh I say on millennialism, the millennium in general. I'm maybe I've spoiled the the news up into this point.

1:34 But if you read Michael's book, you're not gonna know his position on the millennium until the very end of the book. It's like not even the core tenets of what he's trying to communicate in the book. I think the messaging of the be the book for people even who disagree with his position on the millennium are gonna learn and glean a whole lot out of the book because that's not the focus of that text.

1:56 Uh, but I put those words into Michael's mouth. Maybe you can correct me there, Mr. Round Tree. Are you excited today to talk about the millennium and how do you cover it in your book?

2:06 Yeah, well, even to just uh make a note about what you said about like the approach to the book. Now, a scholar would notice it earlier because there are like small hints before I get to Revelation 20, which is the millennium chapter officially, but uh it's it's not the purpose of the book. And you know, one of one of my endorsements, Dr.

2:26 Clint Arnold of Talbot Seminary, he says, you know, hey, whether you're premillennial or a millennial, uh, you can get a lot out of this book. Because what a like the philosophy of the book was I I wanted each view to unfold naturally as you progress through the text, and I wanted to preserve the primary purpose of this writing and John's visionary sequences as they're recorded, because one of the primary purposes is to shepherd God's people until the end of the age.

2:57 It's uh Revelation, it begins as a letter and it has seven letters embedded within the letter, and it concludes with a with a letter-like like conclusion. And so Revelation is a letter, and letters are inherently pastoral, they're meant to shepherd us and uh sometimes to challenge us and provoke us, and other times to comfort and encourage us.

3:18 And we see all of that in Revelation, and so the last thing I wanted to do was to get in some tussle theologically over the millennium at the beginning of the book, and uh and because that's not really, I don't think, the purpose of Revelation. I did end up taking a position on the millennium, of course, and uh, in fact, it's the only aspect of my book where I put in an excursus, which is basically like an extra chapter devoted to what the New Testament says about the millennium, particularly about what happens when Jesus returns.

3:52 And so, of course, Josh, we're gonna need to define millennium and why being a millennial kind of I guess a lot of people don't like that. So yeah, well, let's start at the top.

4:04 Let's define the different positions, if that's okay. We can go through because there's a lot of people who are talking. I don't want to get them lost in the sauce when we're like, okay, uh, maybe Roundtree's position is on millennialism. People who are watching, like, I don't even know what that means.

4:17 Let's walk through the positions of the millennium, historic pre-mill. I I know you in your notes you've just written premillennial, post-millennial, on millennial, but you know, you can kind of define some of those for us.

4:29 There are branches within uh within some of these. So yeah, so the the big ones are first of all, it comes from Revelation chapter 20, where the where Christ reigns for a thousand years. And so the question is, what is that? When is that? It's typically understood to be something of a golden age, although it's different how different schools of thought understand that.

4:56 And some will pull in parts of the Old Testament and say, oh, well, this is what the golden age is, or maybe certain statements in the gospels, okay, this is what the golden age is, and but it's a reference to this millennial reign of Christ. And so the the three schemes are premillennial, post-millennial, and amillennial.

5:16 Uh, and so for premillennial, uh, maybe for a moment we could well actually I'll just I'll just say this. So premillennialism means that Jesus comes back pre before the millennium, before the thousand-year reign of Christ. And so we're currently before the millennium right now, under this scheme, and then Jesus will return and he'll land on the earth and he will begin his thousand-year reign on the earth.

5:45 And some premillennialists understand that to be a physical or a literal 1,000 years, others just understand it to be symbolic of a long period of time. But either way, there's this long golden age in which Jesus lives on the earth and things are much, much better. It is a golden age. Relatively, there is not much death, there is not much sickness, there is not much sin, but those things do still exist.

6:09 And premillennialism also believes in, you know, there will be this mixture of some people who will have glorified resurrected bodies, others will not have glorified resurrected bodies. So you'll have some people who look like shining like the stars, so to speak, to quote uh Daniel 12 and uh Matthew chapter 13, and then you'll have others who just look like you and me, and uh, and then among those others, there will be some that are getting saved all throughout the millennium, and there will be others who are resisting that all throughout the millennium, and then the millennium ends in a giant war, and there is in that moment, you by most premillennial understandings, a lot of death, and but it's

6:51 short-lived, and God brings it into it, and then after that is the very end. So I know that sounds kind of complicated, so I try in my book to simplify it, and I describe it as basically overtime. Like if you think of a sports competition, whenever the the final buzzer goes, it it's like game over. But then if there's an overtime, it's kind of like, well, the game was over, but not really.

7:17 And that's how it is with premillennialism. When Jesus returns, it's like the game is over, it it's at least over for current expressions of our current age, but it's not really because there's still another thousand years to play, if you will. There's still an overtime. Okay, so that's premillennialism, is so there's like the the regular time frame followed by overtime, a thousand years after Jesus returns, which is much, much better, but not all the way better.

7:47 And then at the end of the thousand years, Christ makes all things new. That's premillennialism. Within premillennialism, there are two major schools of interpretation. One is dispensationalism, which we've talked about before, but they basically view the the thousand years as uh well, so pre-pre-millennial, there's historic premillennial and and dispensationalism, and those those are the two, but really their differences are mostly centered on what happens like in the at the very end of this age before the millennium.

8:23 So I don't know how much we need to really dive into that. The other prominent feature for all premillennialists is that is there is a temple. I I say all. I have read of one who doesn't believe there's a temple in the millennium, but that is very abnormal. They almost always believe that there is a temple and there are animal sacrifices and those kind of things still taking place in the millennium.

8:49 Jesus is reigning from Jerusalem, sacrifices are made, all the things. So that's premillennialism. Josh, I talked for a bit. Any questions on that before I jump into the two others?

8:58 Uh it would be also a point of premillennialism. I think you mentioned this maybe a little bit, but at the end of that thousand-year reign, Satan is released, tempts at least the those who are not glorified for one last falling away, and then at the end of that, God smokes all the bad guys, then the world's made right.

9:17 Is that that's a general synopsis?

9:19 That would be yes, because Revelation chapter 20 does talk about Satan being released, and so for the premillennialists, that happens at the end of the millennium, which is for them part of overtime. Okay. So now we'll talk about post-millennialism and all millennialism, and these are very similar but different on a couple of key points.

9:43 They're they're almost like siblings or cousins, uh, they're related to each other in this, that both of them see the millennium as being before Christ's return. So instead, like when Jesus returns, instead of it being a thousand-year overtime, when Jesus returns, it's game over. And then new creation begins.

10:04 And so uh the the new heavens and new earth begins. And so instead of like this intermediate stage where it's present age, intermediate thousand years after Christ returns, and then a new heavens and new earth, which is premillennialism, both postmillennialism and omillennialism believe that the thousand-year reign of Christ happens on this side of Christ's return, before Christ's return.

10:32 And so postmillennialism will tend to view it. There are a few branches of this, we can go deep, but uh, some of them will understand that the millennium expands all the way between the two advents, between Christ's first coming and Christ's second coming. In my reading, it's more common for post-millennialists to believe the millennium is still future, however, before Christ returns.

10:56 So you'll hear them talk about, for instance, like, hey, maybe in hundreds of years the world will take a turn and it'll become sort of this golden age and media and entertainment and technology and government and education and families and all the like everything is going to be really thoroughly Christianized.

11:16 And they'll look at verses like in Matthew 13 where the kingdom of God is like a little leaven that's put into a lump of dough and a woman stirs and stirs, and gradually it fills the whole lump of dough, so it is with the kingdom of God. And so they're they have a big emphasis on like, hey, the kingdom of God wins.

11:32 Like, it's not like basically we it it all sucks down here until Jesus comes back and he's like, oh man, you guys really suck. Well, I'll just fix it all. They say, no, we're gonna gradually Christianize the world. Post millist or I would say that Christian nationalists are often post-millennialists.

11:50 They're also in the charismatic side, Dominionists who believe in like overtaking the seven mountains, and there's a more charismatic flavor to it. They're post-millennialists. And there will be a strong emphasis on Christianizing institutions, not just government, but all across the board. So that's post-millennialism, and that's part of them building for this golden age.

12:13 But once again, they don't believe in an overtime. When Christ returns, game over for the present age, and it's all new heavens and new earth. With a millennialism, it's a bit of a misnomer. And it's a misnomer because just like the word atheist means they like the ah or the a means they don't believe in God.

12:33 It means without. It's a contradiction to theist, which means God to follow. In the same way, amillennialist would seem to communicate that we don't believe in a millennium, but we do. We just believe it's right now, it's currently happening. And so we would say the thousand thousand years is symbolic, which postmillennialists, all post-millennialists that I've ever read, believe it's symbolic for just a very long time.

12:58 Amillennialists believe that the thousand-year reign of Christ began at his first advent, and uh and then at his second advent, it's game over for the present age, and then new heavens and new earth. There's no future temple with sacrifices that forgive sins, uh nor sacrifices as memorials, as a pre mill pre-mill will typically say.

13:34 We don't believe after Jesus returns, people will continue getting saved gradually over the course of a very long period of time. We don't believe in any of that kind of stuff. We believe in Christ's present reign. Now the uh premillennialists will tend to believe, they will say, Well, yes, I do believe Christ presently reigns, but functionally it's just maybe less emphasized than it is for the amillennialists.

14:02 It feels a little less tangible to the premillennialists until Jesus is wearing sandals in Jerusalem. And so uh but to be fair, they would say Christ reigns. Now I I've heard people say, for instance, like if if Amillennialism is true and this is the golden age, then the millennium sucks. And uh and I think it's it's a fair point.

14:27 So, like, in what sense could this what we live in be a golden age? Well, what the Amil Amillennialist will emphasize is that first of all, when Jesus rose from the dead, Matthew 28, 18, he said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations.

14:46 And that's the emphasis of Christ's reign. Whereas before Christ reigned as the God man, before Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father and and you know, waits for his enemies to make it be made his footstool, before that, most of God's focus was on Israel. He loved the whole world, but the world struck out, struck out in the garden, struck out in the judgment of in the days of Noah.

15:14 Strike three was Babylon or the Tower of Babel. So you have three failures for God's focus on blessing the world. And so he says, okay, after Genesis 11, he goes to Genesis 12 and says, I'm gonna pick one man, Abraham, and make a great nation out of him, and through him I'm gonna bless all the nations of the earth.

15:35 And it'll also say through his seed. Paul makes clear, like, hey, he doesn't say seeds, he says seed, which is Christ. And so in Christ's coming, what whereas Israel was flooded with gospel light, so to speak, in the Old Testament, the nations were handed over to their false gods. What you see in the New Testament is suddenly when I am lifted up, Jesus says, I'll draw all men to myself.

16:00 The gospel would go global. It wouldn't be just Israel that gets flooded with gospel light. All nations would be uh would ri have the chance to hear the good news through the spirit baptized church. And so that's so we would say uh actually absolutely, that is a beautiful and wonderful expression of God's golden, golden age, like where the psalmists were singing about like, hey, God's gonna reign over all the nations.

16:24 Like it was impossible, almost. It must have been such a stretch of the imagination to imagine that Israel's God, Israel, this largely or at least often subjugated minor power in the Middle East, was going to have all the nations worshiping their God. And or Daniel 7, where the Son of Man appears before the ancient of days and the clouds of heaven, and all nations pledge their allegiance to him, give serve him, give him obedience.

16:52 That was almost impossible to imagine, and yet it's fulfilled in Jesus. What a golden age it is. The church is spreading throughout the entire earth. Now, is there still sickness and disease and all of those things? Yes. And that's why we say it's not a perfect age. That's why we're waiting for the time to come.

17:08 And and so, uh, and I would reject, like a lot of people say, well, a millennialism, they just believe in Christ's spiritual reign over the church. And and I I reject that. Like I reject that description. I think it mischaracterizes it's not just a spiritual reign. Revelation 1:5, Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.

17:26 Kings are physical. Jesus is physical, he rose with a physical body, he reigns over heaven and earth. Earth is physical. So what about that is merely spiritual? Nor does he merely reign over the church. He reigns, he's he's the cosmic lord of all. He's above every throne and dominion and power and ruler.

17:42 He has the name above all names, he's the king above all kings and the lord above all lords. And while Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, always reigned, he reigned as the fulfillment of the promises of God made to Abraham that uh that one of his seed, one of his descendants, and then ultimately one of David's descendants, would be the ruler over all on an eternal throne.

18:05 And that's exactly what happened. He fulfilled his promises. So he reigns as the God man for the first time, starting in the first advent. So that's why all millennialists will stress Christ's present reign, and that reign is consummated at his return, as it says in Psalm 110, he waits until all his enemies are made his footstool.

18:23 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. And so, uh, and so that will happen at Christ's return.

18:30 Okay, couple things I want to jump in on here. Yeah. One thing that you said that I want to clarify for the the person who might have misheard you, because you mentioned three failures. Very clear. Michael doesn't believe those are God's failures because God is sovereign, he's in control over everything.

18:46 There were the failures of humanity to bring God's kingdom. Jesus comes and brings that kingdom himself. So like Michael's not claiming that these guys have failed. Uh, if I want to do a 30,000-foot overview, pre-millennialism, God is going to come, then a thousand years is set up, bad guy's released, he cleans house, everything's perfect and good.

19:10 That's historic or premillennialism. Then post-millennialism is God comes down. What's causing him to come down in some sense is the Christianization of the world. Empire is becoming more and more Christian, it's very golden agey, boom, Jesus shows up. A-millennialism, which is going to say that hey, this idea of God's reign coming is coming and is here, but it's being seen through the church while he remains sovereign over everything, but when he comes down, no overtime clock.

19:40 That's what post mill and a mill have in common, is that there's no uh after action. It is currently in the millennium right now. I I I wonder if you would uh that's the kind of the quick and dirty summarization of all that you said. Uh, but but could you maybe give me some historicity behind this? Because I think that there a lot of people right now are gonna be in the pre-mill camp.

20:03 Uh I'm I'm gonna speak to this from personal experience. I have no data that supports this, but I would imagine most Westerners here in the States in particular are gonna be of the pre-mill. I'm sorry, not pre-mill persuasion. Yeah, pre-mill persuasion. They're gonna say, hey, this is the eschatology I learned.

20:19 It's certainly the one I learned. It's the one that I've seen most people talk about. Uh, with dispensationalism being very popular in the West, the pre-mill position has been what has been communicated the most. As far as I can tell, I don't have any stats to back that up. I just think it's the case.

20:34 Is it true that the premillennial position, the the post-mil, all-mill positions have actually been seen in some sense throughout church history? How did church fathers talk about them? Did they consider any of this heresy? Did they throw each other under the bus like we do today? Etc., etc.

20:50 Right. Well, you know, for one, nobody was using these labels and these systems to describe it. And so uh, so there is like that has to be acknowledged because we can look back in history and try to slap our label on it, but there there can be things that aren't fully consistent with any one label. But I do think it like so, first of all, to speak to our current age, premillennialism is all the has been all the rage for about since the 19th century.

21:21 Later uh about 1832 is if I recall, was uh was the year that uh Darby began to introduce a more like a system of dispensationalism, which was premillennialism. And again, quick and dirty, within premillennialism, historic pre-mill and dispensational, uh they both believe in a future like overtime, future reign of Christ.

21:49 Difference being dispensationalists believe in a pre-trib rapture and historic pre-mill does not. Um but uh we've already talked about that in a different episode. So, but like take even in the United States, like when the United States was in its ascendancy, and and man, we had like our economy and everything, and like taking like a greater role in the world stage, post-millennialism was actually the most common for a while.

22:15 And then if you go further back than that, in just church history, a millennialism was primary for over a thousand years, especially from the days of Augustine on, but also before that. And Irenaeus, no, sorry, not Irenaeus, Justin Martyr talks about like, hey, and he was second century, like, hey, in his day, it sounded like most people were pre mil, but there were also people who disagreed with him who seemed to be omil.

22:41 And he's like, you know, but we're all brothers. And I'm obviously paraphrasing a lot. Irenaeus, I just mentioned, was very big pre mil. Charles Hill, we mentioned this on one of our other pop podcasts. I'm just going to Of read like a quick summary here. I from my book, I write, while many of the earliest church fathers held views we would now label premillennial, the historical record is neither uniform nor simple.

23:02 Charles Hill of Reformed Theological Seminary builds a compelling case that early figures such as Ignatius, a disciple of John, Polycarp, the pastor of Smyrna, Smyrna, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hippolytus, wrote in ways consistent with A millennialism, and later there is no dispute. Augustine, Athanasius, Luther, and Calvin articulated unmistakably a millennial readings of Scripture.

23:24 My point is like we people who really love the Lord have thought differently on this. And so that's why I I'm really against people dunking on people on this issue. But you know, I've heard, and I don't think this is representative of pre premillennialists, but I've heard some premillennialists say things like those with the lowest IQ in heaven will be a millennialist.

23:50 And some have called her. Yeah, some what some have called it heresy. And and I commonly see people say things online, such as, you know, hey, we the only way for us to get ready for Christ's return is to make sure everyone in the church is a pre-mill. And I'm like, no, I don't think that's it. I think the best way to get ready for Christ's return is to repent of your sins.

24:09 That's the best way. That's the best way. So yeah. So yeah, I I would say it's not uniform. I I think that probably there were more pre-mills, or at least closer to pre-mill, in the early, early days. So uh I want to be honest here and admit that, but majority of church history has actually been all mill.

24:28 Okay, so if people have stuck with us up into this point, can you give us what all of these views have in common as it relates to the historic Christian faith? That, like, okay, we are disagreeing on when these events happen, but we are still agreeing that all the events happen. Again, just to show the camaraderie and the cohesiveness between the positions, even though there's much debate and distinction amongst when these events take place.

24:53 Yeah. I mean, we all believe Jesus is coming back in the future, and we all believe he is our blessed hope. And we we all place our faith in him, we all trust him to forgive us of our sins, to give us a brand new life. We all believe in the triune God. This is very much a secondary matter. So so that that's where uh I like how Gavin Ortland talks about theological triage, and we have to be able to know what's a first-tier issue.

25:35 Like, if y'all start disagreeing with me on the Trinity, or you know, like, well, uh, you know, I don't think I think the Holy Spirit's just a force and not the third person, like we're gonna have some real issues there. But if somebody says I'm premillennialist, or you know, I've had people in my church come up and be like, I'm a dispensationalist, is that okay?

25:53 I'm like, Yes, I love you, you know, like so. I think that needs to be our posture.

25:59 Fantastic. No, I I think that's right. Okay, so uh before we hit Revelation 20, walk me through the seven things the New Testament says have to happen before the return of Christ. Walk me through some of those. Okay.

26:12 All right, okay, so so seven, I have a chapter in my book. This is the excursus I mentioned earlier, called it's basically about what must what does the New Testament say will happen when Jesus returns? And part of the principle there is that the primary way in which we interpret scripture is through other scripture, and so we want to compare scripture with itself.

26:36 And and and part of that is when we come across a really unclear passage, then we we interpret it through the lens of clearer passages of scripture. And this was uh the this was uh a kind of teaching from Reformation days. This uh this comes from the Westminster Confession of Faith. It says the infallible rule of interpretation of scripture is the scripture of itself, and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture, it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.

27:08 So we interpret the clear passages or the unclear passages by the clear ones, not the other way around. In Revelation 20 is hugely debated, and as it turns out, throughout the rest of the New Testament, we have some really clear language describing what will happen when Jesus returns. And the case that I make is what happens when Jesus returns doesn't seem to correlate with an overtime of a thousand years.

27:37 What seems to be happening in the New Testament description of what happened of Christ's return, the events that surround it more align with it's game over, no overtime, and we go straight into the new creation. So I will what we'll do is we'll come across language like when and on that day and at that hour and at his coming, these events will occur.

27:59 And they actually seem to contradict, in my interpretation, a thousand-year overtime. So you asked for seven of them. I I'll start walking through some of them, Josh, and feel free to stop me, and I'm or I might do a couple and then pause and see what see if you have any thoughts. But one thing that happens when Jesus returns is everyone will be resurrected.

28:22 Now, this is different from in the premillennialist view. Premillennialists believe that only believers are resurrected at Christ's return, and the resurrection of unbelievers occurs at at the very end of the thousand-year overtime. And so, in between that, you have people who have unresurrected bodies interacting with people who have received their resurrection bodies, and those people without resurrection bodies are getting saved, usually it's believed in pretty large numbers.

28:53 A lot of them are getting saved. This raises interesting questions, Josh, about like what happens if you get if you enter into the millennium without a glorified, like resurrected body, and then you die, where do you go? You wouldn't go to heaven because Jesus is on earth. Do you go? Do you receive an immediate new resurrection body after you die?

29:15 Are there popcorn resurrections happening throughout the millennium? It's kind of a weird question. I mean, you can appeal to mystery, but it just starts to get weird. More importantly, it it's like the whole scripture seems to point to a mutual like resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous at the same time.

29:34 One of those places is I mean, the clearest in the Old Testament we would be Daniel 12, it's I think it's verse 2, which speaks of the righteous and the wicked uh resurrecting at the exact same time. And there are a number of other passages, but one is John 5, 28 to 29. It says, An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

30:02 And so it seems like at a singular hour, people will hear his voice, and when those people hear his voice, they will come out of their graves. What people? Both the righteous and the wicked, both those who have faith in Jesus and those who don't, and one will rise, it will be a resurrection of life, and the other it will be a resurrection of judgment.

30:25 It happens at the same time. And so uh I don't think hour means 60 minutes, but it it does seem in this context to mean the moment when Jesus' voice calls out, and and so everyone will be resurrected, that's one. And uh and honestly, it feels really awkward to me if just even the idea of having glorified people next to unglorified people.

30:54 There there are a lot of other questions that arise. But number two, everyone will be judged, everyone will be judged. We actually have evidence right right here in Revelation, and and notice the time word. It says, this is Revelation 11, 18. It says the time for the this is right when Jesus returns.

31:12 It's the blowing of the seventh trumpet, it's right at the end of the age. Jesus has come back, and and it says the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth. Okay, so notice the dead are judged at the same time that the righteous are rewarded, and and so there's judgment and reward occurring at the same time, and it's the moment of Christ's return, and it's right within the very same book, the book of Revelation.

31:41 Then we get to an epistle, which I think it's important to compare it with epistles because epistles tend to be clearer than apocalyptic literature. Uh 2 Thessalonians 1, 9 to 10, I'll read parts of these. It says, those so those who deny God, it says they will suffer. So when Jesus comes back, the the wicked, it says they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints.

32:07 Notice, the same day Jesus comes to be glorified among his saints, on that same day the wicked will suffer eternal destruction. And so the wicked judgment and believers' vindication converge at the exact same time. According to Paul in 2 Corinthians 1, 9 and 10. Now, I'm not saying that premillennialists don't have explanations for any of these, they do, but I will just tell you it sounds like explaining away rather than actually explaining it.

32:38 The other thing, and I don't know if I mentioned this at the top, Josh, I was actually pre-millennialist before I preached through Revelation. And I had studied it all, I had read the theology books, but I still say it was by default because I I think I was just affected by everybody else I knew was a pre-millennialist, and they always dunked hard on all millennialists.

32:56 So I just never opened up to the possibility. But when you start to read like what the scripture says, I mean, I just think we should be open. And I don't think we should let someone dunk so hard on a particular view that's fully within orthodoxy that we won't even investigate it. And so, number three, uh, the way I word it is I say the probo probation will end.

33:16 So um 2 Peter 3, 9 to 10, it says, not wishing that any should perish. So it's trying to explain why is Jesus delayed so long in coming back. He says, Well, Jesus doesn't want anyone to perish, but that all should reach repentance, and the and it says, But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. In other words, God is like Jesus is delaying the time of his return.

33:38 Why? So that all can reach repentance and that none should perish. But under premillennialism, they actually have a thousand years of second chances. If somebody's, you know, uh just a Jesus rips across the sky in glory, billions of people, billions of angels flying across, people down below who aren't saved are looking up and being like, I don't believe this is like somehow not getting saved through all that and surviving it.

34:06 And then they're entering in and they have a thousand years to change their mind. Guys, I I don't know. To me, it just doesn't like I know I believe in I believe that like apart from a work of grace, nobody's gonna come to know the Lord. Like, and I I get all that, I believe that it's hard for me to believe that somebody could watch all that happen and then exist with Jesus reigning on the earth physically for a thousand years and be like, I don't believe in him.

34:32 And people are walking around glowing. I'm like, I think people would believe it's just hard for me to believe that. But more to the point of 2 Peter 3, Peter is saying Jesus is delaying his return so that more people can get saved. But that doesn't agree with premillennialism because they can actually still get saved after he returns.

34:52 And so it doesn't seem to align to me. Josh, do you want to pause, ask anything, clarify anything?

34:58 I mean, that's been my largest discomfort with premillennialism. And I think it's it's probably fair to tell the audience that there are hard questions for the Omil folks too when it comes to some of the temple language. Why it's it's crazy because I I I taught through Zachariah, and that's actually what made me uh I say made me has has persuaded me more into the omillennial position.

35:23 I want to be fair and tell the audience that I haven't done enough of a deep dive. Because I I think when you adopt a position, you know, like this is the position I hold. You need to do like rigorous work. I think that it's okay to say I have a default position. Like my default position for the longest time was premillennialism, and said, This is the position I've learned, I've been discipled in, but I haven't studied enough of the other positions to know this is exactly where I land.

35:48 I mean, I might land in a post-mill camp. I mean, I don't think so, but you know, um working through it, I haven't done enough work to go, I know what I believe on this. But as I've worked through this, uh, the question about the temple has arisen to be like, okay, uh, is there gonna be sacrifices? Look at these passages that talk about sacrifices.

36:07 The all mil can, to your point, go, yep, I think that we have a theological reason not to believe this. And I think those are persuasive enough for me to go, I can I can accept that. Whereas the pre-mill position on some of these, like, yeah, people are gonna be walking around with glorified bodies. What happens?

36:23 Is there another resurrection of the dead that the Bible doesn't record? Because they die, like a you know, a young man dies at a hundred uh in this premillennial sort of position during the millennium. And and you go, okay, how how how what happens to that person? Is there another resurrection? Now, the idea of like offering salvation to people, you know, you you mentioned your discomfort with like glowing Christians and Jesus walking in the streets and people like, I don't believe.

36:52 I don't know, man. Like for me, I've read like I'm teaching through the Gospel of John, like he performs all of these signs and still people refuse to believe. I have I have as as crazy as it is to think of the depravity of man, to be willing to resist that, I I could see it potentially.

37:08 I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm not saying it's impossible for the exact reason because like you know, I'm a Calvinist, so I actually believe like I'm very big on the depravity of the human heart, and we need a touch of grace to like that repentance and faith themselves are gifts. That's my belief, doesn't have to be your belief, but that's my belief, and so I could make space for it theologically, but I still think it's a very reasonable question to say.

37:36 Like it's one thing that, like, hey, I wasn't present for it, but they're saying this guy Lazarus was sick and that he rose from the dead, or you know, maybe even you know, this woman says she had a long time flow of blood and she was healed. I mean, I don't know. Uh like seems but like it and and in some cases they they even knew there was the blind guy who was healed and they knew he was healed, but they still harden their hearts.

38:01 But even so, we're talking about like just when Jesus returns, he does rip across the sky, he does come in glory, and he does come with myriads upon myriads of angels, and the dead in Christ rise first. So people are coming out of their grave, flying into the sky, and then believers who are already in heaven get new bodies, and they're flying into the sky, and they all come down.

38:25 And Jesus, under premillennialism, builds a giant temple that's like more glorious than anything, anything we had seen before in terms of temple, rains from Jerusalem over all the nations, can call down drought upon non-performing nations anytime that he wants. Like, it's just hard for me to believe that in that I'm I'm with you.

38:50 I don't believe it.

38:51 It stretches into it stretches into like mythological level. Like, I'm with you. Like I'm I'm with you. I I I go, I I could at least have plausibility for that. I actually have less I have less like confidence that these passages of like a s a second or third resurrection emerging throughout history, and like what happens to these redeemed folks, like what's the point?

39:13 I like it and it seems like in the millennium, if you talk to people who are in the pre-millillennial position, a good chunk of them say, Yeah, it seems like almost everyone who lives during the millennium falls away when Satan is released. And it's like, well, then what was the point of the millennium?

39:26 Like, I I so it you know it depends on who you're talking to, and everyone's in a different camp. So so I don't want to like wrongly characterize someone.

39:34 Yeah, so I I'm so I just you actually bring up a good point because I want to jump to it's it's a little lower in our list for show notes, but you know, we talk about this golden age where there's a lot less death and a lot less sickness and a lot less this and that, but in Revelation 20, at the end of the millennium, there is a Gog Magog War, which for the premillennialists, they would say, Okay, Armageddon, this is the first really bad war, and and it is at the end of this age.

40:08 Although dispensationalists will say there's actually two really bad wars at the end of the age, one before the seven-year tribulation, one after, and then a third one, and this is the whole thing about premillennialism, there tends to be lots of different events that seem almost the same. And the on-millennialist tends to say, actually, they they they are the same.

40:26 But what I wanted to note, because you talked about mass, even on even for premillennialists, most believe based on Revelation 20, you go back and read, and this is what it sounds like. Most believe there is mass death that Satan is gathering the hordes of unbelievers like sands on the seashore, to turn against God's people.

40:49 And okay, so sounds like a lot of death, and then and yet you read this is my point, is like one of the things that happens when Jesus returns is that death is vanquished. So we read 1 Corinthians 15. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, the dead will be raised imperishable, then shall come the saying, death is swallowed up in victory.

41:10 And what I say in my book is I don't believe in death that keeps on living after Jesus swallows it up. In other words, when Jesus returns, death is swallowed up forever. But for the premillennialist, and that's actually what it says, it literally says that in 1 Corinthians 15. It says death will be swallowed up forever.

41:29 When will it happen? When Jesus returns. But if you're a premillennialist, you have to say, Yeah, but there will be another thousand years in which there will be some death, and at the very end of it, lots and lots of death, even though Jesus swallowed it up. I think that's that's not consistent. Now, what I have heard premillennialists say about that is like, well, death is swallowed up for believers, just not unbelievers.

41:53 I I think that's a uh that's a tough one to square with a universal language. I mean, especially if you go back to Isaiah 25, when it uh when Isaiah 25, gosh, if I had the right exact words. Okay, so Isaiah 25, it says the death will be swallowed up forever in the context that relates to quote all peoples, verse 7, all nations, all faces, and verse 8, all the earth.

42:20 So that kind of universal language just doesn't sound like it's applying only to Christians. So anyway, so that's that's another thing that Joshua gives me pause with premillennialism. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, and the Lord could prove me wrong, and that would be fine. I still get my blessed hope, but I I think it's a a a serious challenge to say that Jesus swallowed up death forever, except kind of not.

42:49 Yeah, I I think that th those are the things where it's like I I think if you were to create a list and have a pros and cons list of like, okay, interpreted interpretive dis difficulties, I mark the Amal, okay, temple. But like I have a really hard time going much further in that list. I go, that that's kind of that's kind of the sticking point.

43:10 And if I go, man, I can see this as a spiritual temple, I can see this throughout at least Zachariah's writings and even Ezekiel's writings, even though the temple is very specific, there are certain measurements that aren't being given, which would suggest maybe this is a more uh spiritual sort of temple that I go, okay, I could I could see room for that as well.

43:30 But but then when I go to the premillennial position and I go, man, there's a lot here with death, with resurrection, other resurrections, a lot with how are they going to you know contend with all of these resurrected bodies? I'm just I'm beginning to see some compounded pictures here that make it harder for me.

43:47 So when people ask me today, it's like, okay, I think my default position is more on ill now than not. Still have to be theologically honest with myself and do deep dives into those things. It's funny. We start talking about this stuff, and everyone, you know, we were talking about law gospel distinctions, and they're like, You guys are saying that because you're Calvinist.

44:03 It's like Roundtree wasn't on that program, and the only two guys who were on that program were not Calvinists. Uh, and it's funny because I'm over here going, hey, look, John, you know, Michael, unless God does the work, I don't think someone is gonna, you know, uh have faith in Jesus. Uh I'm I'm all on board on total depravity.

44:20 So uh let's uh let's keep pushing through this list, man. I know you've got how many we mentioned like three or four up into this point. You've got seven on this list. We we need to crank this up. We're gonna make we gotta make this a part two, because we're already at 45 minutes, but let's let's push through this list and uh well.

44:36 Yeah, cool. So I've I have a few more, and it really this one goes with death will be vanquished, and and it is that when Jesus returns, every tear will be wiped away. So if you go to Isaiah 25, 8, here's what it literally says He will swallow up death forever. This is verse 8, and the Lord will wipe away tear from all tears from all faces.

44:58 Now, cross-reference that with the Revelation 21:4, it says, He will wipe away tears from their eyes, and death shall be no more. That's almost like a direct. Quote from Isaiah 25:8 Neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore. But guess what? Revelation 21 4 doesn't apply to the millennium, it applies to the new heavens and the new earth.

45:16 And so and so I would say the connection here that like the end of death and the end of tears and the beginning of God's new world, this all goes together. But for the for the premillennialist, you will continue to cry after Jesus comes back in the millennium because people will still die and there will still be sickness.

45:39 It'll be a golden age, and your tears might be less, but they will be taking place over a thousand years or some very long period of time. And at the very end, there will be lots of death and therefore lots of tears. And so I think it makes a lot more sense to say, you know what? Isaiah 25.8 envisions a singular moment in which God swallows up death forever and all tears are wiped away.

46:00 Those go together because death brings tears. And then 21.4 makes the connection explicit and applies it to the new heavens and the new earth and definitely not to the millennium. I said, definitely. By my interpretation, I mean 21.4 is definitely not to millennium. So every tear will be wiped away when Jesus comes back.

46:18 And and the first part about swallow up death forever, that in 1 Corinthians 15 is directly quoted, is applying to when Jesus comes back. So you start to put it all together. Jesus comes back, tears are wiped away, death is swallowed up, God's new world. It all goes together, it all makes sense. There are a couple more, and these kind of go together.

46:37 And one is the elements will dissolve and creation will be renewed. So that's that's sorted together. I'll I'll tackle them. The elements will be will dissolve when Jesus returns. So Hebrews 12, 26, it says, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens. Second Peter 3:10, the heavens will pass away with a roar, and heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved.

46:59 So you see passages that speak of this cosmic shaking that takes place. And you see the same thing in Revelation, chapter 6, verse 14, the sky vanished like a scroll. Chapter 20, verse 11, earth and sky fled away. But here's what's interesting about that is so when Jesus comes back, like there's this judgment, you can think of it sort of like just as people die and are resurrected, the earth will go, the cosmos will go through its own sort of death and then resurrection.

47:25 That's how you is we'll get to the resurrection, the renewal part in a minute. But there but there is this judgment that that comes upon the earth at first. There's this great cosmic shaking. But if you're a premillennialist, you actually believe in two cosmic shakings. You believe in if you're a historic premier, you believe in two.

47:43 If you're a dispensationalist, you believe in three. But let's just go with the simpler one of you believe in two. You believe like Revelation chapter six, that's when Jesus comes back. Revelation 2011, that's the end of the millennium. So if you're a premillennialist, those are separated by a thousand years, and they're both a cosmic shaking.

48:01 I quote Sam Storms when I say this. Should the author of Hebrews have said, yet twice more I will shake the heavens and the earth? So Hebrews envisions one great cosmic shaking, and premillennialists envision two. I I don't understand how that can be. So I think that's a that's a problem. And so for me as a non-millennialist, I would say the shaking of Revelation 6 at the end, or when Christ returns, and the shaking of chapter 20 at the end of the millennium actually go together because Jesus returns at the end of the millennium, which is at the end of this age.

48:35 The elements are dissolved. But then the next one is creation will be renewed. This one, this one creates a big problem. This is Romans 8, a few smattered verses. The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. It will be set free from its bondage to corruption, and we await the redemption of our bodies.

48:54 So now I read that fast for the sake of time, but it's very it's crystal clear that in Romans chapter 8, the redemption of our bodies, so the resurrection, which occur uh aligns with Christ's Christ's return, our resurrection, and the renewal of creation, those all occur in tandem. It's not like but the way premillennialists will usually explain this, is they'll say things like, uh, let me look up a quote from my book and we can respond to it.

49:29 And this is from like one of my favorite scholars. I just really disagree with him on this. And and and what he's proposing here is not idiosyncratic. This is the normal position of premillennialists. Uh, he says, the point of the millennium is to begin the renewal of creation that will be completed once Christ has triumphed in circumstances similar to those under which Adam has conquered.

49:50 Adam sinned in Eden, but Jesus will overcome Satan at the end of the Edenic millennium. Whereas Adam was driven from the garden, the conquest of Christ opened the way for the edening of all creation and fulfillment of God's purposes. And my response to this, and again, I love I love Hamilton, but uh the text doesn't say, so like even to just summarize his view first, he says, like when Jesus comes back, creation begins its renewal, but it's really completed after the thousand years.

50:21 But that's not actually what the test text says. It says that creation will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 821. The freedom of I'm just gonna read the section my thought, Josh. The freedom of creation from sins cursed bursts forth in triumphant tandem with the glory of resurrection.

50:41 Just like we do not merely begin our resurrection, neither does creation's renewal merely receive a jump start. Paul teaches a different millennial view. Like a woman holding her baby after an arduous delivery, creation will cease groaning all at once at Christ's return. So we don't see a gradual renewal of creation.

51:01 And even if there was such a thing, this would create problems. Because remember, when Adam sinned in the garden, all creation was subjected to futility. Like all creation was cursed as a result of one sin in the garden. So if sin continues in the millennium, and people then that sin just subjects us back to futility all over again.

51:22 At least it it would seem that way, since that's how it happened the first time. In fact, it would seem all the more because it wouldn't just be one sin, it'd be lots of people sinning. In fact, you'd have unbelievers sinning all the time. And and besides that, I think it sounds a little I don't love describing it as though Jesus is sort of resubjected to a test, sort of like Adam was in the garden, and that he's gonna renew the creation and fulfill the test that Adam didn't pass.

51:51 I I struggle with that because I would say Jesus actually already passed the test where Adam failed, Jesus prefect prevailed with his perfect obedience, and he said, It is finished. And so it it risks sounding like that Jesus has more work to do. And I know Hamilton and others who are pre-millennialists would never ever word it that way.

52:13 I just think that's a I don't like the sound of that. So anyway, I think it's just big picture. It's really hard to say that creation will is only partially renewed at Christ's return. Go back and read Romans 8. That's not how it reads. It uses the analogy of a woman groaning in childbirth and says and says that in the same way, creation is groaning for Christ's return and the resurrection of her bodies.

52:38 Why? Because the earth itself will be redeemed at that time.

52:44 Well, man, as you were talking, I just I had more problems come to mind. Like I'm thinking of like procreation. Um because we have these glorified bodies. It seems as if the language of our glorified bodies are not for procreation, and yet unbelieving people that were ruling and reigning over during the millennium are still procreating, but they're existing in a world that like has got not the same sting of sin, you know?

53:13 Like some kind of renewed world of sin, but are they born with this sinful nature? I certainly think that they are. If their unredeemed family is born in Adam, like I'm just trying to think of all of the implications of it. It's like it opens this giant can of worms, and I think one of the things that Amil and Postmill have going for it really well is it's a night, it's a nice neat bow uh that says Jesus comes back the end.

53:40 Well, and they lived happily ever after.

53:42 It's not the end, but you know, like it's a it's a long ride into the sunset. That's real, dude. I think that's real because like if it really helps me fix my my hope upon the return of Jesus as my blessed hope. And functionally, if Jesus returns and there's still death in the world and sickness and maybe unsaved relatives and all of like maybe it's a lot better, but it just seems like it.

54:10 I I think it's it it seems to put off our blessed hope completely in terms of its completion for another thousand years. It's also extraordinarily, extraordinarily complex as a system, and I think that's why a lot of people and I'm gonna say this with just I'm gonna try to say this with humility. I don't want to dunk on premillennialists because like lots of people I really love are premillennialists and they're super smart and good biblical interpreters.

54:35 But I think that part of the reason people don't want to study the end times is premillennialism is exceedingly complicated, exceedingly complicated. Multiple resurrection stages, mixed mortal and immortal populations, repeated final battles, and an additional age before the consummation, multiple cosmic dissolutions.

54:58 I mean, people just are like, I don't know, just tell me what tell me what I'm supposed to believe here. I think extraordinary complex. And so, Josh, here's what I like to do. I know we're kind of coming up coming up on time. I made a little list of challenges for premillennialism, and I just want to read them really quick, and then you can just ask me if you have any questions or if we want to pause on any one of them.

55:18 Okay. Some we've kind of hit on, but I just want to make them explicit. So, challenge number one, premillennialism is extraordinarily complex. Challenge number two, what premillennialists describe as happening in the millennium is completely absent from the one chapter that directly mentions a thousand-year reign.

55:40 No explicitly earthly thrones, no rebuilt temple, no sacrifices, no land allotments, and a partially renewed creation. None of that is mentioned in Revelation chapter 20, and that is the chapter that describes a thousand-year reign of Jesus. Number three, Ezekiel's temporary temple imagery appears in the new creation instead.

56:01 Uh, so Revelation 21 to 22, I've counted eight allusions to Ezekiel's temple in in the new creation, the new heavens and the new earth. So John apparently sees the fulfillment of Ezekiel's temple there. And yet, if you're a premillennialist, you see Ezekiel's temple as actually being built in the millennium.

56:20 John explicitly doesn't describe it in Revelation 20, and he explicitly does allude to it over and over and over and over again, eight times, and probably more in Revelation 21 to 22. It's hard to explain. Number four, restored sacrifices cannot simply be labeled memorials. So, you know, if you ask a premillennialist, like, well, why are you why are people making sacrifices in temple in the millennium?

56:43 I mean, book of Hebrews, right? Like, Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice. Why would we need to do that? Well, they're memorial sacrifices. So, you know, we spill the blood of you know, goats and lambs, and and it reminds us of what Jesus did. And to which I would say, well, in Ezekiel 45, 15 to 17, they are actually not memorials, they are propitiatory, they're actually functioning to forgive sin.

57:10 So I think that is a real problem when you contrast it with Hebrews 7, Hebrews 9, Hebrews 10, and what it says about the finality of Christ's sacrifice. And also, why do we need to kill animals as a memorial when we already have communion that functions at least in part as a memorial? Strange to me. Next, a restored Levitical system reverses the movement toward fulfillment.

57:34 So Christ's permanent priesthood, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, not a Levitical priesthood. But after the order of Melchizedek, who doesn't belong to the Levitical priesthood, well, suddenly we're going back to Levitical priesthood again. So Jesus fulfilled the promise, and it seems like it reverses to become not a Melchizedekian priesthood.

57:55 Next, premillennialists believe in essentially two Gog Magog wars. It duplicates the same prophetic pattern. We'll talk about that more next week. I think this is a real big problem, Josh. When you read Revelation chapter 15 and into 16, verse 15, it talks about the seven, the angels with the seven bowls with which the wrath of God is finished.

58:19 And then after the seventh bowl is poured out, we read that it is done. And and then at the beginning of new creation, you read once again, it is done. And so we would expect there to be some kind of connect. Like I don't think God says it is done, oops, it's not. Actually, okay, now it is done. The it is done has to mean at the same time.

58:42 So it is done, the completion of the seven bowls of wrath, the wrath of God is finished, it is done, the old order of things, mourning, crying, tears, pain, death, it's all over. The first order of things have passed away, and now the new order is here, new heavens and new earth. So the bowls complete God's wrath according to Revelation 15 and 16.

59:05 But according to Revelation 20, God's wrath and judgment comes back after a thousand years. I think that's a tough one. And then I'll I'll stop here. There were more, but the thrones and the reigning souls fit better than earthly Jerusalem. So when you read Revelation 24 and you see people sitting on thrones, the premillennialist says, Well, they're earthly thrones, they're reigning over the earth.

59:30 They appear to be in heaven, they're called like souls. And and if you compare it with Revelation 6, we'll do that next week. And Daniel 7, 9 to 10, they actually appear to be deceased saints who went to heaven and reign with Christ. So uh anyway, those are I think a few problems. So, Josh, do you want to pause on any one of those?

59:50 No, I think this is actually a good place to wrap. Um, we're at 59 minutes. We'll pick up some of this next week, I think, just as a quick excursus to explain where we've been, because essentially what we've done is we've explained the pre-mill, post-mill, and on-mill perspectives. We have walked through, man, a couple of the serious things that are required before the millennium rain takes place, those seven.

1:00:13 Then we've talked about some of the difficulties that pre-mill perspective has. And then we've got the other line there of uh of what's going on in church history around this period of time. And then I think next week we'll probably try to pick up the more exegetical take on Revelation 20 and surrounding passages that help bolster and make sense of what's going on there in Revelation 20.

1:00:36 Does that sound good, Michael? Great. Okay. Yep. Cool. For those of you who are watching, I would encourage you make sure to go pick up uh Michael's book. It has been released at the releasing of this video. A link of it can be found in the description. Uh The World Made Right. Fantastic book. Encourage people to read it.

1:00:51 Uh, it's accessible for guys like me who haven't read all the theology that there is on the book of Revelation, but it is still theologically robust. So uh encourage people to go check that out. Michael, any kind of closing thoughts uh before we wrap this one up?

1:01:05 Yeah, I I mean again, even though I'd made a case for what I believe, I just also want to say, again, premillennials, post-millennials, you're my brothers in Jesus, and I'm not claiming to have omniscience on matters of eschatology. Uh, I defend my position just as you defend yours. And and really, even in my book, yes, I I'll get technical in a few places, but the main point actually remains pastoral.

1:01:33 And and I believe what John's trying to achieve in the in the millennium is uh in his communication of that and what the visions are designed for are to actually give us hope. And so whether you think the consummation of that hope is a thousand years later, or whether you think it's immediately upon Christ's return, uh, I just want to emphasize we have we do have the same blessed hope, and that's Jesus.

1:01:55 Amen. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. We're gonna see you next week from 4 to 5 p.m. Central Standard Time. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next time.