Why Performance Actually Matters

0:00 Okay, here's an idea. What if we just spend 15 minutes talking about Prime trying to get his video done And then we all say we have to leave. He says so much Got it. I'll just let me just send a quick tweet as a the worst part about Primes on AV issues on the stand-up is that we are wasting at Seymour Torey's time Seymour Torey is not impressed Yeah Anyway, sorry. All right everybody things are ready and we are ready to start the stand-up the most authentic podcast of the world Yes, today we have with us TJ resident genius We have to see moratorium risk expert and of course trash dev with whom we all love and say very nice things about But don't ask about his keycaps guys Do not we're not don't fucking caps today

0:59 Don't ask about the okey. Yeah, I do not ask what is on the okey That is rule the cardinal rule of the stand-up so with that said we are going to be talking about performance today And of course not only is Casey a risk expert. He has a meaty ochre performance man as at least that's right He says he says he's not a deep performance guy He just has some basic ability in it and he knows things that we don't know And so we want to hear some good stories from Casey about this and maybe we'll tell a couple stories ourselves about Some performance stuff that happened Let's start with the mediocre part actually can we start with the mediocre part?

1:42 That was part I most wanted to talk about I wanted it because you I remember you specifically always saying I'm not a performance guy I'm not a performance guy. That's why I called it mediocre, but if you didn't like that, you know No, I want to talk about that because that is exactly what I want to start with I just want to start with this with this depressing Fact or observation which is that if you rewind time like 20 years, right?

2:04 You just turn the clock back I'm much younger Yeah, I was 11 all right. I was 11. Okay, there you go I know right he was ziplining and dad camping with his own dad So true so true really brings me back it brings you back I I was the person who did not know anything about how CPUs worked or performance or anything right?

2:32 And that was pretty consistent like I generally was just like I'm you know I'm just writing you know code to do stuff and worrying about the how things are architected and stuff like that And what was weird is I'm sure like I've definitely gained a lot of knowledge over the 20 years So I'm not gonna pretend like I don't know a lot more than I did then But I definitely did but my attitude on stuff has really not changed I've always just been about I want this thing to run reasonably and then we're good but The perspective of everything that surrounded me Has constantly just been ratcheting downwards and downwards and downwards and downwards over the past two decades to the point where now My like I just want things to run reasonably well

3:17 That has not changed But everyone's now like reasonably well is this unattainable You must be an optimization god to even consider it level And that is so so weird right? I've watched I just watched it go And I'm still like I'm not handing code and stuff into sending language I'm not do I have the time. I don't even really look that hard at the performance of stuff that I'm working on I'm just vaguely Making sure that it doesn't dip below you know with a nice 60 FPS output like it should have right It's not that hard So it's been so weird to see the standards just drop through the floor and everyone acts like nothing happened So I just wanted to start there with that observation because I think people think I'm like this heart like like I was back there

4:05 Like hand code and assembly on the commoners 64 and like what's up with you losers right? It's like no I'm I'm just like everybody else. It's just I I don't know that so do you know what I'm saying is this? Is this like everybody else but you have a you you care Slightly because even now 60 FPS that's not considered a banger anymore. You got to be 144 at this point Exactly. I mean I'm I'm the guy who's like yeah 60 was probably fine right? You know like like I'm literally my standards are not like Oh my god if it's not 500 megahertz then you're not you know, right Hackathons over But that doesn't mean the content is join us on July 26 at 10 a.m. PST on prime stream to live React to the awards ceremony see what everybody built and we'll see you there

4:54 It's okay you worked at Netflix you have everything they want and I appreciate those performance goals Certainly like I what you know if I was doing an action game or something I would I would want that and even I like even being able to move a window around at 144 it feels great It does right but I'm not out there like going like oh my god I can't believe people didn't ship a 500 megahertz update for this you know Twitter or whatever But just it dropping down to like update times in several seconds is just fine That where did it come from you know what I'm saying? Hmm I can I can I propose at least one small thing Please I do think that there was if you remember the 90s, which I'm sure you do

5:37 There was an entire world where we went from not being on the internet's to being on the internet and everything took Many many seconds to do anything like everything was so big and so as Everything got kind of got faster. I think there was like at least among my generation the millennials There's my millennials at there was like a general acceptance that hey look at this It went from taking 10 seconds to taking like a second things are so fast now like look how amazing this is And so like a one-second loading time was like a miracle passed down to us I remember the days of going because I used to watch my mom And I used to be really into the stock market when I was in sixth grade and do all the stocks my mom

6:18 I really had a lot of friends too didn't you Yeah, I would do a private school. There was 12 of us in our grade. I was in the things Okay, I was in the things and I still remember like during that day Just watching her on Charles Schwab and it would take like 45 seconds of screen So when things were taken a second. I think I never kind of lost that magic And so perhaps like there's like a part of me that still lives in the fact that I used to try to download this 30 megabyte game called slayer Slayer.net Whereas like an RPG you'd go and like level up and 30 megabytes was Every five minutes one megabyte. So that's five times 30 that's you know, there's a lot That's a lot of time two and a half hours just to download 30 megabytes

6:57 So I live in this permanent world of I can't believe this works And so maybe that's I'm part of the problem is that I just like Just love it. You know, I just cannot believe we have all these nice things All right, TJ. Good side question Is the rumor true that you used a briefcase instead of a backpack in sixth grade?

7:17 No, my mom would never let me use a briefcase because that'd be bad for your spine So I was never so instead you one shoulder strap and bro never one shoulder strap either that'd be bad for your spine Nordic overload the books with it I always did a two shoulder strap I never needed to be cool Always was instead and I just simply had a couple back a books in there Okay, I was never that guy that ran with all the books Were you TJ strike me as a guy with all the books in the backpack kind of kid?

7:40 No, I didn't bring my books to school. I listened in class and then got a Oh, Harry all right, you've completely mischaracterized Wow, okay, so you didn't you didn't need that the books are books that you don't need those books Those are all relevant the only time I ever needed a book Spanish class Okay, because you have to remember my book because you have to read out loud We always read from book So when when crime said he was going to get a tortilla before where you like what sorry what is pronounced tortilla?

8:12 Okay Tortilla even I can read Well, I think primes Suggested is probably a good one like I mean I could totally see that if people are all still thinking that they're you know That their computer is running over like You know 9600 bod modem connecting to aol Then maybe some of these speeds would be explainable right like they would they would make a lot more sense But you know most people are on connections so fast right now especially like when you're talking about the high-end So like if you're talking about like even my setup here where I don't we don't have like fiber to the home or anything That we're like out in Comcast land But it's still like only a few milliseconds ping time and the bandwidth is like you know something like two gigabit

8:59 Like it's very fast Basically everything should be instant. There's there's no there's really it's all Just issues with either you know data center or what's running or the servers or how you wrote it or the client side or whatever There's very there's really not like you're not gated by the things that you would have been gated by in the 90s by any stretch of the imagination But if people are still thinking like somehow that's true That would explain why they think this is fine I guess because they're like wow you guys are doing really good running this on a 96 under bomb mode I'm like yeah, okay, that is pretty impressive for nice under bomb modem what I believe that there's like a part of me that

9:34 When something takes a moment to load I go Internet right because it's just like I spent a decade going internet And so it's like still built in me just to assume that anything that takes a second is internet And it's not it's not I worked at Netflix all so I know for a fact. It's not internet But nonetheless in my head. I'm like internet even though it's not Yep, okay. Yeah, remember the moment I got like a solid stage drive in the startup time of like my computer was just significantly faster and was it like from that moment. I was like okay things can be way faster than they are now And then that kind of like from them. I went on everything's just needed to be like really snappy But to like time's point I always thought you had to say to some endpoint that they're calling

10:15 But if it's like a app on my phone physically that takes like more than a second to open I'm like what kind of I kind of figure it's not a pain point It's by just maybe the hardware in my phone But like as you upgrade your phone right the phones get snappier and snappier I'm kind of the guy that upgrades his phone to be like five years. I don't really care too much But then like once you upgrade you're like man, I'm missing out So like my my threshold over like tolerance is like slowly Oh, no, I think I think the publics might be as well like I see a lot more people complaining about this sort of stuff now So I kind of feel like maybe the tide is turning because like I felt like 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I don't know how long

10:55 I've been saying this kind of stuff for a long time. I felt like it was just like uh this guy What is he just why you know is way too high standards? Whatever. I don't feel that much anymore It seems like people are kind of coming around to the fact that no really it is like it just sucks And like things should be a lot faster So I do feel like there's some kind of a attitude change But I'm not sure why that's happening either just like I'm not really sure why no one cared before I'm not sure why they seem to start caring now, but I'm glad they are right I'm glad they're putting that pressure on At least a little bit TJ you gotta talk to us. You look like you can grind shaking your head, but I don't hear any words

11:30 Well, the thing I really wanted to do is I was hoping everyone could go quick around in a circle And everyone can do their best dial-up sound impression There's probably a lot of viewers here who have never heard one And then I'd love to have the YouTube commenters type out what they think their best dial-up impression Beven in the comments. Yeah, I got a story real quick Okay, thank you, because that would make a dial-up sound No, we're coming back to that. We're circling back to that I'll make one, but when I was like younger and I was like, you know doing that uh dragon balls e-chat and AOL This would be like uh 10 p.m. at night, you know, it's school night. I don't even know how old I was

12:07 And I would literally take my huge like comforter From my bed. Yes, mother my computer. Yeah, just so you could not hear the sound and then just like pray Like by the time this like 22nd sound is done that my parents. I don't hear my parents walking Yeah Very good. Yes, that's perfect. We don't need to do any more No, we do You rushed that from your parents Well, I smothered the sounds that they can't hear me because it's like radiate Because you weren't supposed to be on the computer at that point. Yeah, it's 10 p.m. At night man I had to go to bed at school like at seven in the morning So this my parents were very nice and and never cared about this kind of misbehavior So what during I like almost the entire last two years of high school

13:03 I want to say my schedule was as follows for some reason I would go to school because you had to I'd come home and I'd go immediately to bed because I was exhausted I would sleep for about two or three hours I would wake up right And I would program until like three in the morning And then I went back to bed for just like a two or three hours So like I had to get up at like six something and I would go to school I just be like completely tired and super annoyed that I had to do that And then the cycle would just repeat this is like that's like the entire last two years of high school for me We're like we're like that now I was so checked out Yeah, yeah, do your dial-up sound now. It was much it would be much like trash like

14:04 I feel like yours was too beautiful yours is more like that was like some movies I got help ordered back in time Waiting for runescape to download on my computer right now to finally finish like updating in the browser And get the get cash correct The thing is I don't actually know like I didn't know as a kid right I used to and there's as a kid There's like no internet like they're just it's not a thing I mean it exists as arpanette and and all this sort of stuff and and whatever so it's there But like you don't have any knowledge of it you can't get on it So BBSs or things like that is all you could information around there's not much information So I don't know anything like all the programming stuff you kind of had to learn yourself

14:48 Or try to find books at like you know the borders bookstore or something like this right and We remember them and and so one of the things too is like modem sounds always used to get progressively more ridiculous Right, because you know there's 24-and-a-bod modems. There's nice 100-buy modes of 14-4 modems or whatever they were And I remember and the sound used to be just the first sound used to be it's like And that's it or something But as they kept adding new negotiation tiers this sounds got longer and longer and more complicated So eventually you're using this modem and it goes through like all these phases and that's where they're like Right and it's like multi-step it used to be shorter because they just it was just the one tone

15:33 But then they had to do the handshake and fair. Oh like art. Can you do 90s to remember? Can you do 14-4 like you know and it kept it keeps escalating right is that sound actually real Yeah, like it was like literally like the same What the hell do you even mean was that actually like he's I trash you're saying like is it basically like the sound at the end of the Washing machine when it makes a sound right or it says that it's done or is it like really I'm just like trying to understand like how they came up with this like the sound like it's sound Humans can't make to prove that it's not a human dialing into something. I assume yeah They didn't want it to be like someone answers the phone and then it starts like thinking it's an actual modem

16:11 I assume so it's just checking what you are It's like hey can you speak this can you speak this can you speak this and so they had different tones different You know like a dial tone and things like that to signal What you are dial tone is this These these are the numbers right like here's what the touch tone phone tones are right these are the click sounds for a rotary There's like machines listening everywhere right and you need they need to know who the machines are listening I had no freaking idea. I thought they're just like this would be kind of cool, man This is awesome sound that we can play out of the speakers From Cisco kind of do you with the sickest sounds of dial up Go Yeah, and then they're all sitting they're gonna like

17:08 No, comp you serve has this one that's like That was sick dude. That one was sick. We need something like that. Yeah, what do you guys can go back and give you some fresh They've got the Rick Rubin of like vibes of of of them. Yeah It needs a little more white noise sounds for me. Yeah. Yeah That's too funny. Did you listen on your car speakers though because it tastes sounds different You know what I'm saying you got to try different computers The acoustics in this room are not conducive to my dial tone. Yeah. I can't work like this You know I get this mentality if you're a kid if you're just an actual child Was a kid when it happened. I was here. We're the same age, but you're now You'd ever just like piece it together that they're talking all I cared about was going in my chat rooms and having a good time

18:03 Yeah Literally Me and all my neighbors We thought we had like girlfriends or something I They actually called my house and they're like we're like 10 or something and we said we were like 16 and they call in my mom It's like this person's on the phone and me and like all my buddies start freaking out It was so bad anyways what didn't wait no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no any way that doesn't end it in any way Trash, there's not an anyways Right In the dragon ball Z chat room afterwards You need to start a few steps back step one, okay, yeah, how I just start the whole story over Because I need to know what happened and then what your mom said They call you you're like hey, you know what I'm 16 let them call me

19:08 I don't even know what we're thinking actually giving my phone number On the internet for someone to call What's the worst good happen on this dragon balls thing? It was crazy. It was dude. I remember like after like after that moment I still I can actually like vividly remember this we hung up and you said I'm gonna use one password for the rest of them They hung up we had call waiting so we didn't get like knocked off when they called But they had to get offline the call so I could see like went offline Then we see that they sign back on they're like what happened?

19:38 I never just like let me just like block them We're just like I feel like it was a real person. You're saying of cool dude Yeah, this was the day in age of real people. This is how you read people Oh, I thought you were getting I think when you were saying you were getting catfish I thought you meant like early fake AI chat bots I mean, I'm sure that happened us but like this specific instance was like no This was way to there's no AI chat botters at this point. This was this was the old fashioned catfish And he was the catfish This is like down home We learned we learned a hard lesson that day fish and caught with a fish and pull catfish All right, wild times. All right. Wow. That's that's great. Hey, by the way

20:27 DJ Performance everyone Dragon balls and getting catfish in 1998 or whatever you just get back to performance You know because prime you and I both haven't done ourselves. Okay, we can not Okay, do you want to do you want me to tell do you want me to tell you the story that my mom told me in About third grade about what the internet will become Oh, or do you want me to tell you about my habits in high school? I'll give you one Both Yes, okay, habits in high school are very very simple I would do something similar to Casey I'd get home from school and I'd play video games Sony online entertainment which had infantry so they had this like 100 person game of capture the flag with guns and stuff like that

21:14 Played a lot of that very good at the game Got pretty high up on the old rankings Uh-huh, and then I'd stand up until about one in the morning Look at porn and then go to bed at whatever time afterwards and I'd do that every day and then during high school I'd sleep in three to four of my classes and I took two gym classes a lot Gym classes two gym classes every day. Okay Really into that was my high school that that literally was it Well, that I did nothing else in high school other than play video games and stay up until Two three in the morning and then sleep in class I also didn't get a good grade in high school. It's crazy It's hard. It's hard when you sleep in through everything. It's true

21:53 I'm gonna tell you that my mom's story. This is a great story So I I must have been third grade. I still remember this quite well She said okay, so because she has she's had like prophetic dreams like weird ones when I say prophetic dreams most people think okay, you're weird No, she's like like my dad. We were already thinking that but I don't really and he's like check these bank accounts Because someone stole money and yes loan behold someone stole money for my mom checking So like real bizarre level dreaming my mom's had And this one she's had she's like I had a dream where Effectively the world was covered in silver bands and you could visit anywhere you want Then you could see anything you want and eventually the whole world got covered in these silver bands

22:35 And you could go everywhere instantaneously. It started you know, it was like amazing And then someone came and everybody would rush towards this thing and that's how the world's going to end And I was just like that's the craziest thing ever this was like in third grade and then the internet came around I'm like, oh wow, that's a weird feeling and then Yeah, that's like a donkey. That's like a donkey But I'm like culture guys I feel like I did pretty good. Okay, cuz it starts off fast. It's like We gotta do Josh. We gotta zoom in on his face. He turned so red. I really do. I laid it out What are you talking about? I didn't do like a weak sound Yeah, so your mom priests for like basically pre-saged the fact that the whole world would would get on

23:32 One giant network. Yeah, she told me that I was like third grade I remember this vividly she had this dream 1950, but what about the world ending part because that part should we be worried? I don't know How did that go? What's this do we have any details about that? That already happened in 2012 the mind All right, yeah, okay then TJ. We're still missing a modem sound from you. Yeah, um, okay. I'll do Well, so I'll say something random about high school then too closest thing so I shared room with my brother So okay, yeah, melkie me and melkie when we were growing up after we immigrated and then So the thing for me was I couldn't keep him up at night because he needed to get his beauty rest So I would literally go take my book. I loved reading books. I didn't need schoolbooks for him to be clear

24:23 Yeah, he read wheel of time Yes, I was reading wheel of time And I would turn on my closet light and go sit inside of the closet hoping that that light wouldn't be enough To see the light underneath the door so that my parents wouldn't be like What's TJ doing? He's reading again. It's one a.m. Why is this happening? So there you go. That's that's um That's mine. Oh, yes, the parents you just stopped the child from reading. Yeah, something that literally no parent has a problem with today They do and it's when you stay up too late and then I'd like I wasn't gonna spend time studying right So I had to be awake for class time. So that was my that was the big thing There was I had to make sure I was actually awake during school hours

25:04 Um, I was I was a good student though in school believe it or not guys. So Wow, okay, and then not shocking Yeah, except for Spanish class Well, so my now wife then girlfriend at the time we were we're high school sweethearts She was very mad at me that I was gonna get an a-minus in Spanish She's like you could get an a if you wanted to and you better do it So I said, okay, then I started studying for Spanish Wait, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, both of you are kind of like academic overachievers or something Yeah, she she was a much better student than I was too. I mean, I got good grade, but she's a better student You know, they mean like she would take notes and like care about things and stuff like that

25:48 All right with like with like nice handwriting and everything. Oh, it's unbelievable. It looks like it's literally stamped I know how that okay. I see yeah, I see where you're going with that Yeah, and then she did like she did biochemistry and college and like Did very well at that and everything. Yes, so she's a very good student All right, so maybe she should be on the podcast. I mean, I'm not trying to kick you off to you. Yeah She could tell you some great. Yeah, she could tell you some funny stories about me in high school probably Yeah, yeah The noise most okay, yeah, here we go hit me with the noise you I'm just kidding. I turned on my robot filter All right, I'll do my real one. I'll do my real one

26:27 Um, all right, I gotta go gotta get the vocal cords on up You sounds like It sounds like scrillex or see that's what that tries you didn't know He literally said his inspiration for all of his music came from his dilemma I'm not gonna lie. I like it was believing you but I don't want to look like I was Look at everyone else's faces to see if they believe you Yeah, I don't believe it. That's dude. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, that's crazy I'm definitely not thinking that's real 50 K if 56 K dubstep is a pretty sweet like that's pretty sweet. Oh, yeah Like I could listen to 56 K right now. Yeah, that would be awesome My performance Well, we're talking about with performance. Yeah, can you get back? We haven't we haven't talked about anything related performance

27:27 But that's that's perfect. I mean, that's how the that's exactly how it should be Casey got his thing out where he said guys He's not even that series about performance. Why are all you lagging behind? That was the message that he wanted to put more about this Okay, so like the context Yeah, let's let's let's let's let's show down a little bit. So basically here's the thing The only the only real change I think that it would take is just a general attitude just shift the attitude a little bit to like Unlike actually caring and going you know this stuff should be Basically instant for the end user And you know, we can't turn you can't turn it around immediately like all every library every substrate every default platform people are shipping are all

28:19 Basically horrible performance. So you're not going to just show up overnight At least especially in the web world, but even in you know, even in games. There's a lot of rot now in some engines, right? But basically like you're not going to just show up and and fix it tomorrow But if everyone was like, you know, we should stop just accepting software practices because some like guy wrote a book And like it sounded good to us at the time and we should start actually going like Why has software gotten terrible over the past 20 years and way way way way slower right Why don't we actually figure out what is wrong with the way we're doing things that's producing this result because it doesn't have to be

29:01 Nobody has to write anything in assembly language to make these software packages fast They just have to remove the 20 layers of crap that they're inserting between what the CPU has to do and what you wrote That's it That's the only thing that has to have is you've stacked so many things interpreters on top of libraries on top of emulation times of packages and times of this and times of Docker containers and blah blah blah blah And this this just it just chokes a modern computer with crap with waste basically right It's as if you're eating like you know, you've got you need to get a little bit of iron in your diet And so you eat something with like one percent of your daily allowance of iron and 99% like the fattiest carbohydrate

29:49 Gunk that does nothing right and you're like that's your that's what you're feeding this poor CPU And there's nothing it can do right so really just change that I didn't go like let's like actually consider this important Let's try to start eliminating these layers and the layers that we do need that we're using because we want to reuse this Let's make them efficient. Let's figure out how to actually make them efficient because we can That's all it would really take over the next 10 years to turn it all around. Do you know what I'm saying?

30:15 Okay, hold on is is there at least some level of argument to be made that Our world has gotten significantly more complex than 20 years ago. No, no, there's literally zero argument at all Because way way way back then You actually had to think about things like what order these assembly language instructions would be going in or how you were going to make all of this work in only eight registers in order for it to not be horribly unperformed right And now Even the smallest Modicum of awareness about what you're feeding the CPU and you will run blazingly fast like a modern M4 chip or a Zen 5 CPU or something Will run almost any reasonable piece of code Instantly they are absolute beasts. It's unfathomable to me when I look at how performant they are. They're just incredible, right

31:13 But you just have to stop layering all this artificial crap in between them right like and these are it's not the world hasn't gotten more complicated We made it artificially complicated right we lost the ability to ship the idea of a stable operating system platform For example like what's a docker container? Why does it exist? Why is that layer even there?

31:35 It's there because we lost the ability to think and write reliable stable APIs for our substrate So now you have no choice but to bundle up all the crap you were using in exactly the crap state that it was and dump the whole thing onto the end user machine Right now that I don't want to pick on that specifically because it's like okay whatever like that's going on right But all of that stuff would not be necessary same thing with like interpreted languages or things like slow garbage collection right We don't need to have those things there are better ways and more efficient ways But what typically happens is these things I mean you take a look at something like JavaScript right The first thing that gets shipped it just propagates forever and no one is stopping and going wait a minute guys hold on

32:26 We need to do a revision step here. We need to make something that's fast by default that ships cleanly by default Let's do that work so that going forwards Everyone isn't building on a faulty foundation python don't get me started right python is 10 times I want to hear you get started about python and how the for loop it's even worse than JavaScript because it really does it can't it hardly can even be jit right it's it it's even worse for something like that like JavaScript at least Certain cases for JavaScript can be made pretty fast by something like a good jit engine If you wrote the JavaScript code like so that it can map cleanly like so that the jit can see what it's doing It can do a lot better python a lot of people are just shipping python and python doesn't really even have an answer for that right

33:10 And so if you write actual loops in python they're just dog slow There's nothing you can do about that right you have to actually do something like you could drop it to cython You could try to use a python Accelerator of some kind right but but by default if you literally just ship some pythons is it's a disaster right On and on and on and again I don't want to suggest that any of these specific things is the problem like there's nothing uniquely wrong with python or something It's the whole general idea that it just doesn't matter and just let everyone else deal with it and let CPU vendors have to keep you know Make everyone upgrade their phones and their computers all the time creating huge amounts of e-waste and just a really bad use of resources for humanity right power consumption everything else

33:54 Because we just didn't care you know what i'm saying and so So i don't think the world is any more complicated I think we made software artificially complicated and we're paying the price every day Forcing CPUs to run this horribly overburdened stuff to do a job that if the job had just been written like if you just Rewrote that job in just simple c You know it would have been 500 lines of code and it would have ran blazingly fast But instead it's like literally millions of lines of code when you consider all of the pieces that actually were involved right And it's just incredibly incredibly slow to get it to actually do anything right So you know Because i want to i want to try to pinpoint the problem because i don't think it's a lack of care

34:37 I just i do not buy that as the hypothesis for the reason why it's happening Um, okay, i'm i'm trying to like that's why i'm trying to come up that's why i'm asking these questions And so i guess the next question i'd have is a lot of corporate environments You there's a there's most certainly an expectation of moving at a certain speed There's a recommended path of like hey if you want to do If you want to do something you need to operate in this kind of way I think you know like even ad Netflix if i were to create like an internal UI that i knew that had to be used by a lot of people I'd probably just choose react because it's just like hey I know how to play the game. I know it's not i don't need like i don't need the right this in rust and htmx

35:18 Even though that would have been my choice back then it's just like i don't need to do that There's like this whole layering that i have to do first apparent You know um like team playing is the idea of pushing hard From management to deliver things does that help create these kind of things where i will just choose something off the shelf Regardless of how many things that it shows off the shelf Regardless of how many things that you know like that multiplying effect of off the shelf that has happened where it's just like i'm relying on someone else's house of cards Because i need the perception and the both the perception and the reality of shipping faster Yes and no so i guess what i say it depends who you are talking about right

35:58 So for people who just are trying to write a UI like i want to make a UI for this thing that i'm doing internal to Netflix or even external to the to end user No, it's not their fault and it's not even their problem really in my opinion You should have been able to use an off the shelf thing and make your UI and it should have run Blazingly fast and used basically no system resources right the problem is the layer below It's and you know to a certain extent there is a little bit of blame that shifts upwards because the pressure is not on Like nobody's pressuring people to say look we need these things to be better Like why aren't there more initiatives? Why isn't there more money being put into making these things

36:44 Very performant and very low system resource usage But really like most of the caring that i'm talking about is at this like standardization like let's say w3c I can tell you definitively from reading their notes that they don't care They simply do not care right they could have taken performance seriously. They don't Right I've seen time and time again when i've been looked at things and like why the heck was this this way and i look at their meat minutes nowhere to be found Is like actual expert performance analysis and this is w3c they could call some a hub Right they could call up a performance expert and say we'll pay you some consulting fees to come advise us on how to design this problem

37:24 Never right they just assume that they know best or that it's not a concern or whatever and they march along right And so we end up with a lot of things where i think Yeah, like that lower level is just a complete rot at this point And so It's not someone's fault now like like like a Someone who's a work-a-day engineer at a company is just trying to get things done They don't have they can't go rewrite react right? I mean they could try to lobby internal like if you're gonna be a hero You could lobby internally to create a project to make a know you own right But that could fail right suffer projects fail sometimes all that stuff So can can you do stuff to try and help yes you can But is it your fault that it's not is no

38:09 The fault is in the platform and we kind of know this as well Because if the fault was just individual people right Then it wouldn't be this uniformly terrible performance of software It would be very varied But we actually see as uniformly terrible performance basically And that's because everyone's building on top of layers that are very slow The actual way that they end up working in practice is very slow right So that's what i think is happening and the the care is Every what like when i say shifting that mentality Everyone needs to start caring But what that means is a little bit different Management and people who are just trying to get their jobs done doing you know stuff above the substrate

38:56 They need to care because they need to be complaining right Management needs to be worried that slow and complaining that slow the engineers need to be complaining that slow So that the the dry powder exists But then the people who actually need to operationalize that caring and and need to be funded to operate for that caring Are the people doing the substrate work Because these things have to get faster by default That's the only way that things will get fixed because it can't be Every time you want to ship a non-laggy UI You got to become some huge expert in react and rewrite parts of it or special cake like it can't be that It's got to be that i just use the normal UI library and it's fast

39:34 That's got to be the way it goes or or it's not going to get better right? The the thing that's been surprising to me like in the past about these conversations at companies is like Every Every like study or like internal thing that i've seen anywhere When the page loads faster you get more sales yes Like it lit like we know this it does seem like from i've never found one where it's like It doesn't correlate or negatively correlates the only time i've ever seen that ssh terminal dot shop We had to add a loading screen at the beginning to make people believe That it was a real store in ssh Like it is literally a time dot sleep at the beginning to show the logo because people thought we were making a joke store

40:19 Because they're like well you can't possibly load your state this fast right This is a problem people find i have a story about that well that's not really story A guy knew ship to game on PlayStation and the on he Optimize the online part so that if you went to go get levels from the online like place where users could post their Like user made levels it was just instant because it cashed things and he you know had it working properly And he didn't like present any latency that the servers would have to the user which is instant And everyone thought that it wasn't actually connecting Yeah, right because they've been so used to the slowness that now they don't believe that software can actually run

41:03 At the speed that we all know it can that's how pervasive the suck is right is that people now don't even Don't even believe that a web page could be instant or that a server think it's but All of it could be yeah So but so that's the thing that's a little bit surprising is like i've had this conversation internally before and i'm like It does seem like it's worth making this faster guys yeah, and then it's like Well, we don't like every time i've ever seen this Everyone says it increases user retention everything's better time to first paint like matters like a bunch of and then I don't know so i if that for me has always been a like kind of surprising disconnect I don't know trash like you experienced this at all or like

41:42 In terms of like performance and like internal politics and stuff like that Yeah, I mean there's like two crowds too because I've been on the internal tools side and then the consumer facing side Which are completely different in terms of performance like internal tools Whatever like it's not like the biggest deal like it doesn't have to be that fast But then consumer right take like amazon e-commerce whatever those have to be faster right but in my experience in terms of Performance it's never really been much on the UI like the JavaScript stuff It's always been like the server part right we've always had to Optimize our fetching patterns and you know the database queries and stuff like that

42:21 So it's like it's very rare at least in my experience like unless like you're like horribly just watching how you're writing your UI apps the bottleneck is always typically going to be like the server or like somewhere around there But yeah back to like what the primal saying though like being a performance being kind of Like bureaucratic in the sense because you know people just want to ship and stuff Like it's just kind of like the reality unfortunately, but um I will say like I did notice like in the past Five years or so like people are pushing each other more and more because I don't know if it's kind of like the echo chamber That we're in like on twitter I think there's more passionate people there first like maybe some other places

43:02 So there's always people like oh look at my benchmark. It's kind of to the point I actually kind of like everyone kind of stopped doing it because everyone was kind of like your benchmarks or BS But at some point there was a point where everyone's like yeah, we can actually be faster and like a good example would probably like node and bun Right just two new runtimes like like bonnose has pushed node like okay Maybe we should invest right, but they're like open source and like they don't they do this free effectively So there there are efforts of like Pushing the boundaries at the browser level. I don't know like I don't really pay attention to like the chrome team And this party team. I don't know what they're doing as far as like that granular

43:38 But I have seen the community that people do want it to be better Uh But you know these things take time I guess and I don't know I don't much to say on that one. Oh, it's okay. I got a couple things So we did this with this is pedal test and I know if there was some coding guy in here He had no exactly what I'm about to say was cell six cell six was infamous at Netflix This was early days. This is when we were putting trailers for the first time as like a video that would show when you'd land in the Television app for the first thing like the big billboard Just that one. Well, this wasn't me for this one. This was the initial very initial one and cell six was Okay, we think that the trailer is so important that we're actually going to prevent the user from even going inside the app

44:25 Until the trailer is done completely downloading which I think it added some amount of seconds of of time and there was no visible difference in any metric between doing it and not doing it And so one of the conclusions that was early brought on by management was that performance does not matter Like if you take some amount of seconds versus some amount of seconds The internal one like the ones that some of us kind of came up with was it doesn't really matter if you load in 11 seconds or 15 seconds It's already so far out that any of the learnings is already gone And also Netflix is a high Is what I would like to think of as a A Already baked into the cake loading time experience on a TV like a lot of people open up these programs and then just walk away

45:13 They'll take a second. They'll just let them load because they already know it's gonna be a long long time It didn't really matter if it took a while and then I'll tell one more fun story about Netflix So there's there was that Then the second big one was We did a test where we had to reduce the Effectively are using too much memory and we are fetching all this data for everything around the boxes Because we are doing like predictive play to lay and so it's like if you were gonna play some other show We wanted to be like ready to play so it's like starts up as fast as possible Took me two years to convince everybody to turn it off It was a lot of meetings like you meeting after meeting and finally I actually just did it

45:49 I just said okay forget it freedom and responsibility F and R baby And I went and just turned on a test allocated 10 million people and called it today And I just turned it off I just said no, we're not gonna do play predict and what ended up happening We actually showed a a slight green into revenue and the reason being is that we just used a bunch less resources things slightly quit crashing as much People out of faster experience and boom turns out more people actually enjoyed using the product when it wasn't lagging So I came up with a couple good conclusions. I think there is a huge difference between an out of app spinner and an in app spinner If you're using the app, I think the expectation should be no loading

46:25 But if you're waiting for the app, I think people have a much greater tolerance for something loading So being able to be like hey, there's a five-second startup time or a seven-second startup time I don't think you're actually gonna make a huge argument there if the difference is You know 500 milliseconds versus 10 seconds. I think you can make a great argument there But if it's inside the app and then you have to wait a few seconds I think people highly care and I got one more good one for you TJ Well, can I say one other thing too? Okay, there's got to be some difference too of when you have made like a conscious choice to like type netflix.com and do your browser versus like just Encountering something random or like you're doing something within the app right like that's even not just like the loading aspect like

47:05 I already took the conscious decision to go to netflix.com. I'm I've got 20 minutes. I'm gonna watch yourself It's gonna turn into 45. I'm already giving up. I've already spent an hour doing nothing So it's like that that time there's there's definitely a mentality there, but okay, this is probably our most interesting test We did which was When you press over there was like a 270 millisecond animation or whatever it is And someone's like we should like remove all this slowness so when you you can just like go faster And it turns out when we allowed people to go faster There was like a dip in watch metrics and people quit using Netflix as much and the big draw away This was like six years ago seven years ago eight years ago was that what ended up happening if you actually measured where people were at

47:46 They would get deeper into the lowlobo where the less recommended objects were And they would go so fast they'd skip over things They're more likely to watch and enjoy watching because they could move so fast And so there actually is like a performance tradeoff that does exist where you give someone too much speed And they go right by everything they could like because they're just like ba In in a shopping analysis they call this the decompression zone And this is why oftentimes like supermarkets or things like that We'll have some stuff right at the front that they don't really care if you buy or not And so you get you got to get a little bit deeper like in retail like or in clothing stores oftentimes

48:23 There's be some stuff on like a front thing that you have to kind of go around like a rock in the water And that's like just something that they expect you to look at later Like you're not going to see it on the way in right yeah Uh, I do think so here's one thing I will say about performance You pretty much universally and as much as everyone seems to want to deny it pretty much universally Performance dramatically improves the enjoyment that people have when they use something on a computer And to your point prime That may not be what you're trying to do if Netflix wants you to click on a movie and start playing it And they don't really want you to enjoy moving around the movie like If you're really having fun there's such a thing is making your app

49:07 Too awesome if the whole point of it is that you actually want them to link out to some other experience right So sure I could even see there being sometimes when someone could say legitimately they go like look Our app was too baller. We had to dial it back And if you said that to me, I'd be like okay cool right if if you're if you're arriving at that place Not because you're making an excuse But because you actually made something too awesome and went oh crap This is too awesome now everyone's doing this thing instead of the thing we actually wanted to do Totally totally valid point right It's the other part that sucks where they're like look I would like this map to scroll at 60 frames a second and zoom in at 60 frames a second

49:46 So I can see the frickin place where my car is going But instead it's like like like like like like like like like and I'm like guys You are aware that this phone runs like fortnight at 60 frames a second right fortnight Mm-hmm, and you're drawing three lines and a dot At frickin 10 What's going on right and that's a constant thing right where you're just like There's no excuse for this. It's the same problem fortnight is rendering a map just like you are But somehow Like you could not figure it out right and so it's weird when you see those kinds of things because I'm like I don't think anyone would use you know a maps app less if it was super buttery smooth And the other way that I know that is if people were sitting around going

50:36 You know, I just don't care how fast the maps update. I just don't care They'd never buy a new phone Like they wouldn't be buying a new phone with a faster processor Apple would just put the same processor in the phone as they put in last year and just upgrade the camera or something Because it's like if all you wanted was a better better photos They wouldn't spend money on making a new chip. They should do the old chips, right? Yeah But they know that when everyone gets a phone and it can scroll fast again Because now they are shipping a chip that can catch up with all the suck that developers added over the past three years Right That consumers are going to be happy with their experience again, right?

51:12 And so again, you just see this again like guys like you can see that it's like like the market is telling you that performance matters It's unambiguous because otherwise we'd just be shipping the same chips we shipped 10 years ago if it didn't matter Right, but it does matter and so it's really what you're basically doing is forcing people to spend all this extra money And again creating a tremendous amount of e-waste That's the worst part of it is these things are just going into giant landfills You can't really repurpose an old you know a some a-series chip you can't repurpose that It can't be like melted down and remade into a new a-series chip doesn't work that way, right?

51:47 And so you're literally just creating a giant dump of garbage Because because we didn't want to like figure out how to ship a faster substrate, right? And that's no good. That's bad Right. It's bad all around Yeah, don't worry KC as soon as we start putting AI on the phones we're gonna keep We're gonna keep on spending a lot of weeks Oh my god dude. Yeah, cuz TP now there's gonna be a huge part of chips instead of kidding for TPU stuff, right?

52:11 And that's gonna have this artificial right is not doing anything. Yeah You know they're gonna be asking AI questions that can be solved with the calculator app You know what I mean? It's you type in yep. What's five plus five? Burned out the forest Or a lamp we're not sure your calculator is going to round trip to a server because they won't like they'll we don't have the TPUs To give you a result in a reasonable amount of time for five plus seven, right?

52:37 So we add a round trip to the cloud. So that's going out there adding a ton of latency, right? You spike the power grid half of America's in a blackout so that you could add five plus three Which is something that we could do instantly in 1973, right? And that's the world that people are actually barreling towards for some strange unknown reason And like you know and people like me are just like so depressed all the time because we're like god This worked like everything could be instant like you're gonna get every high summary KC of your text messages When you could have just read the text message and not spend any TPU yeah power on it I will say there's like this mentality That I've seen where like within engineers where they kind of just

53:21 They want to build these experiences And then their attitude is like well hardware will catch up to where I can build this. So it will be shitty for now Yeah, yeah eventually will be good someday and then everyone yeah exactly So that's like something I've seen like I saw someone in chat. They're like shitty software is driving hardware innovation or something. I was like yeah The problem is the problem is we can write bad software faster That is the current problem actually we should talk about that prime. Sorry. I don't interest you I gotta jump it on this one because I have to I have to like because I've heard these kind of arguments and I always have to counter I remember so there's this thing called sig graph

53:57 I'm sure KC's at least familiar with sig graph There is this presentation where this guy had a thousand bouncy lawn chairs Fall down and they all had like wiggle physics and everything and this was in 2006 And he was able to do that on 2006 hardware with a thousand chairs at once all falling into a big group and popping around Any invented algorithms for it a whole new ways to calculate stuff. It was like an incredible presentation And so whenever I hear someone being like oh hardware is gonna catch up my only thought is that like Wheat the plot was so long ago that we've lost because you cannot tell me that there's a single web application That's as complicated as calculating bendy physics of lawn chairs and a thousand of them gliding into each other because they are

54:40 They're very complex shapes and so I don't know putting a video in the middle of the screen I know like the fact that I can't get the play button to say play what I'm playing and pause when I'm pause on YouTube and worse than they're like looking at bouncing physics chairman who solved this on a computer That is like half the speed of my phone and I just like I can't even scroll twitter beyond 40 tweets without it actually like Turning into like the opposite of jiggle physics. Whatever that is like stutter physics. I think you're thinking of something else from But there's a I just like I'd like to talk about that one point as well, right?

55:16 I just can't really agree about that like this whole notion of like Hardware will catch up. I'm like no it can't be it just can't be that because doom was made on the shittiest computer And it has to be more complex than any website. I visited in the last 10 years Like you're totally right about that you're totally right about that for sure But I guess to trash what I think trash was sort of talking about there was the idea it's like yeah Like I realized that someone Not me right could have made this experience faster and run well But rather than me learning how to do that or like under like learning to understand those things I would prefer to just keep doing the slow version that I've been doing

55:57 And we'll just wait for the hardware to make that fast enough in five years or something right And the problem with that mentality Is that the curve of acceleration For single threaded code has it not exactly leveled out. It's still going up But it is really kind of like the knee of the curve has passed And I think that's also one of the reasons why software today is feeling super crappy Is because people are still thinking that the hardware is going to be twice as fast every 18 months But actually the hardware is not twice as fast every 18 months at all. It's not even close If you're single threaded because a lot of the things that we're doing now are like widening vexter execution units Which no one's taking advantage of adding more cores which no one's taking advantage of sticking TPUs on there

56:47 Which will only be useful to run incredibly slow AI stuff that's even slower than the thing you're running now right And so the actual ability to accelerate single threaded code Has has definitely been plateauing and as process shrinks have become more and more challenging Hardware designers have to get more and more creative about how they're going to get any performance increase at all Out of new generation chips And so it's possible that the single threaded march continues to eke out It's also possible that the party may be permanently over some time soon Not for performance increases but for single threaded performance increases like that single threaded non-simpy performance increases It could which means it could be was capped out

57:34 Which is a lot of yes java clip very much caps out there because like not that javascript can't generate simd code It can but most code in javascript is not set up to actually be able to do that right yeah And again like it's sorry go right ahead to you Jay Yeah, I was gonna say the other thing is like not everyone gets new hardware when it comes out Like okay cool congrats it runs fast on the 70 90 Okay So congrats on not selling your game to a bunch of people like because they don't have the 70 90 And the other feeling for that too is like I don't I know I'm not that old okay But like I still remember it was exciting to get like a new Computer because you're like holy cow guys. This thing is four times as fast

58:21 Yeah as what mom and dad bought me last time you know for the house I mean everyone used to computer first it wasn't just for me to play runescape right Um that wasn't what how did but that's not what it was for a runescape. Yeah a lot of runescape But but now it's kind of like oh, I mean like I guess it's better You know, you're like I guess I have to get a new one because like I want to play this game or there's like a few things That I'm interested in doing or I'm gonna like get 50% more RAM There's not like that magical wonder I feel like of coming home be like the computer's four times faster. I loaded. What was that jackrabbit game?

58:56 Jackrabbit jazz jackrab In zero seconds instead of two this time, you know like by tip I Tim sweet epic. That's epic That's the epic that makes fortnight Jackrabbit. Yes. Oh dang. I didn't know that. Yes That's nice. I got one more thing that we did uh We tried to make this happen so this trash I don't know if you were at Netflix during this time But we tried to get people to use sugarland, which is the old old roku Like this was way back in the day We're like everybody if you're gonna use like all employees must use sugarland because it's the worst device. We currently support right and Nobody would do it because the experience was that bad. No literally no one would use it Instead, they just said no, and I'm gonna do it and I realized there's this there is definitely a part of the problem that you're discussing

59:43 Is a perception problem because a lot of software is written in these kind of concentrated tech cities Uh or like in a concentrated more wealthy environment where the people writing it tend to have more effluency than say the average people around them And so every last person that you're talking to is like I got an M4 MacBook Pro. Oh, so do I high five right?

1:00:04 Like they're all operating on like really quality software and they don't have Like there's no there's no fluency in going. Oh, actually, this is really really painful This is actually really really hard because I would use older ones I was like on a 2016 device in 2020 and people were just like oh, how would you even use that?

1:00:23 I'm like I'm trying to make it like it helps me think through problems better because I'm looking at a problem Where it's like this probably matches more what people are experiencing worldwide Then in the Silicon Valley the Silicon Valley has zero understanding of what the world is like because they live in such an extreme bubble of wealth and technology That they don't even know that the average person doesn't have the latest iPhone the second that it drops at all times And a lot of things are slow even on that iPhone which is the shocking part right like it's not like you get that iPhone And your and your web experiences flawless and instance like nope It's still incredibly slow in a bunch of places

1:00:59 It's just some things like scrolling or something where it can be done mostly just with the device and is being handled by You know some stuff that was pretty well optimized by browser authors right not the people shipping the website that actually will work right Now I wanted to mention something that TJ said I just want to touch on that like you're talking about the 7090 So I think it's important to draw a little bit of distinction here between GPU and CPU though A lot of times like if something's running slow graphics wise right it may not be because people weren't trying like GPUs are inherently paralyzed and the platform that they have set up for programmers to use is very parallel right

1:01:39 So typically the you know people can still write really dumb stuff that makes the GPU have to do way more work than it should Don't get me wrong. There's certainly fat and stuff like that you know But There's such a world of difference and the reason that there's a world of difference is because the people who made the substrate For development on GPUs were performance experts The people who made Vulcan and DirectX and you know the whatever open jail. They're currently on right and and metal All of it was designed and the shading languages especially like basically how shading languages work and get compiled and Create distributed workloads of GPU that whole substrate was done by performance experts

1:02:24 And as a result Anyone who people have no idea how a GPU works no idea what's going on They can go to something like shader toy type in a bunch of math and it runs insanely fast even in the browser It runs insanely fast because it's distributed to the GPU because they created a substrate that was made for performance And allows an end user to simply and concisely describe what they want And make it run blisteringly fast That should be the model for what we're trying to accomplish On the other side right Where's the people making the new version of the web where when you make something it just runs Nicely parallelized and very fast by default That without anyone having to do anything special without having to be a performance expert

1:03:15 Just the thing you're going to type in will work Right That's the thing I was going to say to Casey with that is like To use the GPU like the default and kind of only it seems like option in the unless you like somehow really mess it up Is like you have to write it that it works for parallel you can't you can't do it any by the way really So then does that right so then because the default and like easy path moves to We go fast and can get faster in the future right because we are figuring out how to do lots more cores and stuff I get I get that part and we're like we are magically finding out we can just smash a bit like a trillion of these I don't know how many we have it seems insane Like that's the difference right is like the web default version is like slow you can't figure out how to make it go

1:04:01 Parallel you can't figure out how to write it good by default the option is like we're gonna garbage collect like crazy and blah blah right And then so that's where I'm like I I agree with you I feel like that's kind of the interesting part that I don't hear people talking about as much right is like If you Want to make this faster you have to figure out how the default experience can go fast and exactly help people onto that path Not make it like an uphill battle to be like oh Okay, well now I have to figure out how web workers work and how like all these things work I have to do object pooling myself and exactly right prime's favorite javascript technique You know object pooling so it's like correct the reason you like that is because you can actually make things go faster

1:04:42 Right, it's like okay, but then we need to figure out a way to like can we figure out a way to make that happen by default so everyone can just do it This is exactly the point right the point is Like just to bring it right back to the beginning of where we started this particular arc, right? Not everyone is going to be a performance expert The goal is to make it so that your performance experts are there at the bottom substrate and that they have designed something excellent And then everyone who builds on top of it can they still slow it down?

1:05:13 Yes, and they will to some extent But the difference is they'll only you know your apps will only run half as fast as they could instead of a hundred times Then they should right like one one hundredth of the speed is what we're having now And if we went from one one hundredth to one half the speed Holy cow would that blow everyone away in terms of the response and if of these things right So everything needs to be kind of reconsidered at that level and propagated upwards And then things just get way way way way way better because then everyone's just reaching for these new substrates that are designed to be minimal Fast and everything's performed by default the way you use it And the only suck that gets added then is any specific suck that you created

1:05:58 But you're not just sucking by default, which is what we have now Yeah, I got to go pretty soon, but before we do case the or like maybe prime knows a website prime Do you know any websites where people can learn how to enhance their computer experience and learn lots of cool things? Dude if there was a website like I don't know computer enhanced.com that would be the perfect website name is like I'll tell you a website name I'll end with that. Yes, if you're interested in performance stuff You can come check my stuff out at computer enhance.com, but let me give you the perfect illustration of what I mean by this I don't want to do web dev So what do I do computer hands.com is just a sub stack page

1:06:37 The performance of my performance aware programming course sucks because you get it from the default thing that you used to Streetsticks and it's terrible right So I'm literally I'm literally saying exactly what I said this entire time is my own experience I just why I didn't write anything. I just clicked like I'm making a thing the a publication on a site that people used to get their Publications right because I don't want to go write a whole thing And the end result is the performance is terrible. You can literally go take Of course by me where I show you all these awesome things about performance and we make super fast stuff and all this great things And the way you're getting the content sent to you is credibly slow

1:07:22 Right for now. Okay. See for now me and Megan were talking. Okay. Yeah, we're we're thinking about we might write something for you All right, I just have like closing thoughts in general. Yes, I agree like I do agree like Like the foundation we're building on and I was speaking like specifically like in my domain Um is in the greatest, right? Oh, like no dude. It's TypeScript compiler problems. That's where that's where yeah Well, no, I'm just saying like there's just we Us as engineers at this point in time. We build on top of so many abstractions that we just don't even know What's even happening underneath but I think like In my ideal world like you should care about what you're shipping like

1:08:00 Do your due diligence to like if something sucks like Do just like do you try to make it better? Um, and I so I kind of like hate people like kind of just like ship stuff I don't hate them, but I'm like disappointed When like someone can like ship something and they're like it's good enough or like it's performing bad But they give like no effort to like even peel back one layer of the onion to like understand to make it better And so I think like I don't know. I just want like people to like care a little bit more about their craft I guess like in my like at least I don't know Obviously in a perfect world that everyone's gonna do like that But I just think like the mentality at the moment was just like ship ship ship as fast you can

1:08:36 I'm gonna make 10 12 startups in like five days Any increase the pressure like that attitude like you're saying if you if you had an attitude that was like I care Like what I know this can be much faster. Why isn't it? Just the that also just increases the pressure on the system as a whole for people like to make the substrates better Which in time will give you the ability to continue to not care like you'll eventually not have to care as much Because the things that you grab off the shelf at that point will already be much faster So you won't have to know as much or peel back as many layers of the onion to figure out why things are going wrong, right?

1:09:16 So like it pays dividends in the long run to just have that that modicum of care where you're like this should be faster And I'm at least gonna complain about it right like I'm not If even if I'm not gonna have the opportunity to go rewrite this myself for fixing myself Just increasing the pressure and the general systemic awareness that something that something is very wrong here That helps us push these things forwards and have the substrates get replaced with better things, right?

1:09:40 I do I do also want to say that you know There could be a whole bunch of people that fall into this category that don't even know they're in this category Like I think there's a lot of people that just use Twitter the website and think it's perfectly fine But when I press the post button it takes about two seconds for the thing to show up when I click outside of it It takes about two three seconds for the thing to go away And no one actually has this categorized as a bad experience This is just the experience so when they make something that falls into a similar amount of performance They're just like oh this is no this is what normal is Well the best one is mentions. I am meeting the same bar of goodness that I see all around

1:10:16 And so there's also like a trained mentality that this is perfectly fine behavior And so they may not even see this as something that's wrong. They don't even perceive it as bad. It just is what it is Mentions is the best one on Twitter at least for I don't know if you guys are similar I click on mentions I have to wait 30 40 seconds before it will actually show new mentions It's forever. It's like it's it's infinitely long right just shows an old stale page And even if I refresh it still stale and then at some point I don't know some Ajax kicks in At like finally got a thing back and it's like oh here's the all the mentions that you write and it's like It's insane how long some of these things take on Twitter. So it's weird to me like yeah, I know what you're talking

1:10:57 I say both let's say they're doing the performance is fine. So it's like what? Yeah, yeah, are you crazy? So all right, well, let's wrap this thing up. Hey, this is a great conversation I think nothing better has come out of this and trash the story about the internet and covering it with a blanket Cover me cover my cable modem with a with a blanket right now And also I took it we all learned that modem sounds were shorter. I did not know that. See I did not know that That is nice to me. So that was a great real educational standup By the way, I'm kind of blocked right now waiting on tj So next week, I'll be able to get work done. I'm going camping. Sorry. You'll have to circle back with me on Monday. Bye. Bye

1:11:39 Bye