BONUS EPISODE - Matt and Jeff Review John 3

Hey everybody, it's Matt. This is the 10 Minute Bible Hour Podcast, and this is a bonus episode, as indicated by the iconic music made by my close personal friend Jeffrey Foote, who joins us because this is a thing we're doing in this season where at the end of every chapter of the Gospel of John, Jeff and I are sitting down and we're doing a little Saturday retrospective objective for the day.

You to figure out everything I missed that we didn't cover or that I just got wrong or any like facts I got wrong or whatever. Number two, we got to talk flow. This is a very theology-heavy chapter in the middle of something that is being presented as a story. And I think it's kind of easy to lose the plot in chapter three of the Gospel of John and forget this isn't an epistle.

This is a story with theological commentary woven in and with an agenda that's fully disclosed. So we got to talk about the story and what's happening structurally here. And then we need to goof around and talk about the music that you have provided for us while we've been in chapter three.

There's not a lot of plot in chapter three. There's like one conversation with Nick, and then there's a conversation with John the Baptist. That's the story.

Yeah, and conversation can be story. We do that all the time, right? And you know, you come home and your wife asks how the day was. You're like, well, I had a conversation with this guy, and he was like, and I was like, and he was like, and I was like. That is the story, even though it's just dialogue.

But in terms of plot action, there's no miracles in chapter three, there's no I am statements, there's no travel, really. There's baptizing, I guess.

Yeah, there's a soft miracle. I mean, the kind of miracle that during the age of deconstruction of the miraculous in the Bible in the mid-20th century, that was kind of hot before you and I got into the game. You remember all of that writing from the mid-20th century seemed to be like trying to make the miracles make sense and not treat the people back then like they were insane, but also be like, obviously, head pat for you dumb people back then.

It Jesus didn't multiply the loaves and the fish, he just modeled sharing, and then everybody shared, and the real miracles, the friends we made along the way.

I always like the uh the walls of Jericho fell because the footfalls of the Israelites affected the foundation over a week of marching around the city. What? Is that an actual thing? That's what I remember from that era. What a crappy wall, what an absolute dumpster of a wall. How can we naturalize every miracle we find so that it's scientific and not miraculous?

That one's just so absurd.

How do you build walls that bad and that ineffective? And how would no one else have thought of that any sooner? How would no resonant frequency have ever occurred that would have obliterated the wall? I just that's weak. I think you're ahead to just be like, uh it didn't happen. I don't believe anything from the Old Testament.

Which actually comes into play in John chapter three. Yeah, it does.

That was a good you picked up where I was going. You want to just hit that since it's at the end of the chapter? You clever man. All right. Yeah, let's let's do start with that.

Yeah.

Uh the episode this week where I talk about the idea of uh the man who's accepted it has certified that God is truthful. And I read that as sort of John offering commentary and saying, the only one who's ever been in heaven in the conversation here in Muk Bay is Jesus. He's the only one who's really qualified to speak with authority.

He does. And just because the world doesn't like it doesn't mean it's not true. If anything, the fact that the world doesn't like it probably means it's more true. And to accept Jesus is to accept part and parcel package deal of all the stuff, whether it's easy for you to comprehend, like the walls falling down or not.

Is that how you read that one?

Over the years, I've gone to that verse. It's 33. Whoever receives his testimony sets a seal to this that God is true. I've gone to that verse as like, okay, if you believe that Jesus is from God, then you have to take the whole thing. Well, I I want to believe in Jesus, but I don't believe Jonah was in the belly of a fish for three days.

It's like, well, if you believe in Jesus, you you're setting your signature, your seal, your uh you said certify, that everything in the book is true, that God is true from beginning to end. So yeah, I that's how I take that verse.

Yeah, and obviously we just got done doing a whole episode where I went and picked some of the real smoking gun places where Jesus overtly affirms things, like the example you just brought up, Joan and the Whale, but it's a wholesale affirmation of the law and the prophets and the writings that Jesus offers.

So I don't know. I I could see how, on the one hand, somebody on the front end of faith, or who's very, very steeped in naturalist assumptions, which is understandable. I mean, that's the world we live in, would hear that and be like, well, dang it, that's a hurdle for me to accept or follow Jesus because I don't want to accept all that stuff.

I don't want to sound crazy and I don't know what to do with it. But on the other hand, I guess you could look at that and be like, man, it's pretty depressurizing to say, look, we're just going to interpret the less clear and less understandable in light of the more clear and the more understandable, and the most clear thing in the Bible is the person and work and role of Jesus.

I mean, the central claim is that God came to earth, died, and rose again from the dead. And if that's true, are we really gonna have a problem with the fish thing or the walls of Jericho? Like that's gonna be the holdup. Like go back to the central claim, which is probably the most outlandish of all the ideas in the Bible.

And if that really happened, all the rest pales in comparison. And it's it it doesn't make it easy to grasp or to really hold on to, but at the same time, it's like comparatively, if I'm in on the big one, the small ones, okay.

Yeah, which is why we get told that you know we're absolutely to be pitied if the big one is false. Right. If Jesus isn't God in the flesh, uh and if he was not raised from the dead, this thing is an interesting embarrassment, but an embarrassment.

And if he did, are we gonna get hung up on all the other stuff? Yeah. There's also, if you go back to verse 36, after the sets his seal to this, we get whoever believes in the sun is eternal life, whoever does not obey the sun shall not see life. So you have these three verbs set your seal, believe, obey.

Yep. Uh in chapter six, those three words are together again. Uh 627, Jesus says, Don't work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures through eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on him God the Father has set his seal. Then they said to him, What must we do to be doing the works of God?

Jesus answered them, This is the work of God that you believe in him, whom he has sent. So at the end of chapter three, you have you put your seal, that God is true, and believing is equivalent to obeying. And then in chapter six, God the Father put his seal on Jesus. Well, how do we do the works of God?

Well, if you believe in Jesus, you're doing the work of God, and therefore you're obeying God. I just thought that was a pretty cool parallel of those ideas.

Yeah, and right after the passage you just acknowledged is one of the smoking gun passages where Jesus affirms stuff from other places in the Bible that's miraculous. He affirms Moses and the bread from heaven and all of that business.

Clearly, those ideas are linked and it's on purpose. Even the Nicodemus conversation. Well, we know you're from God. How can anybody do the things you're doing? Okay, well, let's talk for a minute. Uh, you need to be born again. Okay, how do I do that? That doesn't make any sense. Well, you need to be born of the spirit and water.

Okay, that doesn't make sense. Wait, you're a teacher of Israel? You don't understand this? Yeah, can you dumb it down for me a little bit more? Sure. There was a snake on a stick one time, and if you look and believe, you're saved. John is exemplifying so much of these themes in that one conversation.

Do you think what happens right after that line, just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life? Do you think Jesus goes on after that, or do you think the conversation is done between Jesus and Nicodemus and what we get from there on out is commentary from the evangelist?

I think I have a bone to pick with you. Fun. I think I have a disagreement. I am not a fan of red letter Bibles, because I think it's all John the Evangelist. In the idea that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, what's inspired by God is not what Jesus said. It's what John said Jesus said. So I don't think it matters because it's all John, even if he's quoting Jesus or giving his own commentary.

It would not be my preference to have red letter Bibles.

I especially have a problem with the red letter thing right here, because it creates a Bible controversy that doesn't need to exist and that isn't present in the original text. Either way, it's all John, but also it's John quoting Jesus, and I believe quoting Jesus accurately, but I also do not believe, nor do I think the text is asking me to believe, that the entirety of the conversation with Nicodemus has been summed up here.

I do not believe Nicodemus walked all the way across town to talk with Jesus for I 90 seconds. That's about how long it takes me to read it. I mean, I I think they probably talked about some other things also.

And again, John is the one author in Scripture who says explicitly, there's a lot more I could have said, but I chose this. So to answer your question, I I'm okay that 16 and following is John commentating on the conversation. Yeah, if you want to put the cut there that Jesus' onstage dialogue is over at that point, uh, I could go with that.

Yeah, and I think it's important for following the flow of it. I do think it hits differently if two characters are in dialogue here, and then we cut to the Ron Howard arrests a development narrator voice here. The thing hits different and paces you differently with the idea when you're like, okay, I'm hearing from Jesus right now, and I'm kind of with Nicodemus.

I could use a so you're telling me guy right here. And then right about the moment that I'm with Nicodemus and also lost, the you're telling me guy comes in. I don't know if we've discussed this so you're telling me guy on this program yet, but you know what I mean.

It's the thing in movies and TV shows that drives you nuts.

Yeah.

It's the character after the scientist says what he's saying, the character says, wait, so you're telling me, and then totally dumbs it down for the audience.

Yes. And I think a great sketch that I would like to do someday would be to just have a you're telling me guy for the so you're telling me guy, and then that guy also has a so you're telling me guy until it's down to just grunts and banging rocks and leather together in the mud. It's so insulting. You like fringe, the old TV show.

I love fringe. You told me to watch it, and we crack up every time cool street smart science guy who's not like old guy, nerd science guy steps in and is like, wait, so you're telling me exactly what that guy just said, but with dude in it a couple times? It's so ridiculously cool thing.

But isn't that the conversation with Jesus and Nicodemus?

Like, that's the whole conversation. I'm bringing this up at my own expense.

Yes, you must be born again. Wait, so you're telling me what you telling me? I gotta find my mom back up. I gotta find I I took seventh grade biology, Jesus. That ain't gonna happen, you know. So you're telling me, but you gotta be born of the spirit. Wait, so you're telling me I'm not born enough? And then finally, I just I don't get it.

How can this be? All right, so there was this snake on a stick. Like, let's just go to the lowest entry point. Yeah.

You're right when you say that there is not a ton of overt plot in this chapter. I want to go back to something we started talking about earlier, and that is the nature of the Gospel of John itself. This is a story, and I want to fight for that with the remaining 30 or 40 episodes that we probably have in this season or more, could take longer.

Sure. Who can say? But it's a story, and I know you've got an entire shelf full of resources on John. Do you think there's any book in the Bible that's been written on more academically?

I mean, it's always the one that people say read it first. When you open your Bible, read John, go to John first. I you did all the stats for your book, but like, is it the most famous after Psalms? No.

Uh hang on. Well, maybe. Hang on. Uh, what do we got? Popularity rank three of 66 is what we get with John. Is Matthew two? Yeah, Matthew is two.

But you're right. Uh if it's the third most famous or popular, of course, yeah, there's gonna be tons written about it. I think it's harder than Matthew.

Matthew's a story with a simple thesis. Yeah. Behold the king. If you know the Old Testament, Jesus is the round for that. Bop ba-da-da-ba. Jesus. The dun dun is that's Matthew.

It's very through the front door. I think John is definitely more dense. It's more interwoven themes as opposed to yeah, just through the front door linear.

Interwoven is the right word. People say that a lot when they talk about things and they want to sound smart and sophisticated. You're not using it that way. Yeah, I'm neither smart nor sophisticated. So right. You know, picture picture a braid, picture a Celtic knot, picture something that is very elaborately woven together.

And that really is what we're seeing. I mean, I've written down six, seven meaningful threads in the first three chapters that I think are there. And maybe it's I don't know much about braiding or weaving, but it seems to me that one type of braiding or weaving is to have like one big central cord around which everything else weaves in and out.

And the big central cord is behold, believe, have life in his name. It's what you as the reader ought to do in light of all of this. But then you get all these other things that are coming and going. The idea of testimony and witnessing, the idea of cleansing and purification, rebirth and new life, the idea of authority from above, the idea of the uselessness of man's testimony and approval.

And I'm that's not even it. I mean, there's just a ton happening here. And it's not to say that Matthew is a simple document, it's complex and magnificent, and there's a reason that it's cherished, but John to me really does read like a book that A is being written decades after people have had time to sit with the facts of the story.

The church has developed and it started to go global, and different questions are arising regionally. I definitely believe that a way undervalued, underappreciated aspect of the Gospel of John is the occasion of its writing. John is near Ephesus. We know that the cult of John the Baptist survived near Ephesus and in Alexandria, Egypt, longer than probably anywhere else.

And we know that people hustled back and forth in terms of trade and culture between Alexandria and Ephesus, an abnormally large amount. So there John is, and he's hearing about this confusion about John the Baptist and Jesus. And he's like, All right, we need another gospel. I'm doing it. And I see that way more clearly now than I did 170 episodes ago.

So it's easy to come at it because of the density, because of all of these themes, and I think because of when it was written and the occasion of its writing, it's easy to come at it and quickly start to treat it like an epistle, like a New Testament letter. Like this is 1 John, 1 John is 2 John, 2nd John is 3 John, 3 John is 4th John, and to read it the way we would read you know, Galatians or 1 Corinthians or something.

But I want to fight for the story. I want to try to weave it around that thread as we move forward.

And one of the things I like about these post-chapter conversations you and I get to have is I can pull on a thread of maybe a doctrinal piece that I notice, or that maybe the listeners will notice. That while you're focusing on the story, we can pull these every once in a while. You know, like what does it mean to be born of the spirit?

Like we could dig into that. Or when I went through John with our church, I was not ready for the thread of what is eternal life? And spoiler alert, there's a huge explanation of what that is in the upper room discourse in the teen chapters. So you read John 3.16, it's like, but have eternal life. You're like, awesome.

Well, what does that mean? Okay, well, pull on that thread. I dare ya, because it's gonna show up a lot. Uh, even the believe theme. What is belief? You you did a couple episodes on the cumulative effect of belief, the the fact that you believe more as you go, or the disciples do in these three chapters so far.

Uh, what's the minimum viable belief to be saved? Does John ever get to that? Which thread do you want to pull in John? Is really an interesting way to read the book. Do you want to pull on the I am statements? Do you want to pull on the miracles? Do you want to pull on the feasts? Do you want to pull on the Trinity, Jesus being God, and then the life that he has with the Father that he gives through the Spirit?

What does abide mean? We're not even there yet. Washing.

There's so much water through three chapters. So much. Yeah. Uh well, it's kind of the gift that keeps on giving. And these three chapters were hard. Not necessarily like, oh, it's really hard to understand. Okay. I feel like if you just sit with it, it makes sense. And if you're confused by one part of John, follow the thread to another part of John.

You know, it kind of weaves and wends and winds because it is a braid, but you'll be able to find that the through line of that particular chord, that particular thread that you're interested in. I mean, John will answer the questions John presents to you eventually, but you got to pay attention because a lot of things are happening.

So sit with it long enough. And even the hard stuff in John, I think, really comes into focus and it self-teaches very well. But how to handle it with this format? What tone do you strike? What is an episode made of? What is an arc of episodes made of?

It's like, okay, we did four episodes on light versus darkness in chapter one. We're done with that. Oh no, we're totally not, because light and darkness show up every other verse, and we got to deal with it again. But here it means this, and here it connects back to that, and it's going to connect to this thing in the future.

Yeah.

You know, my concern with this season, just pulling back the curtain a little bit here, has been that I'm afraid that it would be hard for new people to come in and pick up the thread, the storyline through the first three chapters, which I didn't think of as a double prologue until this trip through John, but I think it's a double prologue.

I think it's going to feel really different for the next several chapters. But my concern was, man, it's going to be tough to onboard new people. And tonally, on the show, I really like to talk with and process with people who don't actually. believe in God or believe in Jesus, but who are here listening to the thing.

But John just takes us so deep into this stuff that it's man, you you're just in it. And it I kind of feel like I have to ask people who are not yet people of faith but listen to the program to just kind of come and hang out with us in it on this season. Well it it's the fourth gospel. It's a later gospel.

There's it's inside baseball. But it's also I think very welcoming.

Yeah John is very, very complicated. But of all the books, again, he is the one who explicitly said I'm writing these things so that you will believe. So the entry point for somebody who doesn't know this stuff or doesn't believe this stuff, there are hundreds of those entry points in John. Well and he and you really did, I thought, a nice job on Jesus came from heaven, therefore his testimony is true stuff.

Which I have run into conversations my whole life of the all roads lead to the top kind of worldview. You know all roads lead to the top so don't be so arrogant to think you have the only one. What I love about these verses and I think what you did, especially assuming somebody who does not believe is listening to this podcast.

Because I think what John does so well here and you brought out in the episodes is who in the world could know which roads lead to the top? Only somebody who's been to the top and who came from the top. And so if somebody claims to have come from the top and says this is the way and these all lead to certain death, let's mark those paths it's not arrogant to say does he really know what he's talking about?

Yeah, especially since he also made the road and is the road. He is.

So for him to say that like for us who are in the muck bay we could say well I kinda like that road or you kinda like that road but if somebody comes and says this is the way, my first question is is he legit? Let me find out. Yeah. And I think that's what why John sets it all up. I think it's actually probably more arrogant to say all roads lead to the top and I'm sure of that.

Because kind of like have you been there? I haven't been there. I don't know. I gotta take somebody's word for it. And I think John knows the audience is going to have to do that which is why he establishes so much the legitimacy of Jesus claims and all the eyewitnesses. So it's like this guy is trustworthy.

He is believable. We have seen him and I think by bringing that out that the one from heaven is the one who tells the capital T truth I think you did a good job of establishing that for anybody coming into the podcast and not having a background in any of this.

Before I ask you about music on this chapter, uh what other bones do you have to pick? What else would you have handled differently or do you think I didn't get into enough?

Um I don't know if I have any more bones to pick. I'm interested to see what you do with uh Holy Spirit stuff because the be born of the spirit I don't know if you really dug into as much as I would have but chapter four's got a lot on the Holy Spirit the Upper Room Discourse has a ton on the Holy Spirit so that'll be fun to get there.

And I think that is designed to come more into focus the closer we get to the arrival of the Holy Spirit proper. To liken it to the John the Baptist Jesus cross fade it's not quite analogous because Jesus is glorified at the end. He never decreases but it does tell the disciples that it's better for them to have this the spirit and so we see the spirit theme ramp up as we go along.

But he shows up in chapter four with worship. He shows up in chapter six versus the flesh so it'll be fun.

So for those of you who are newer we have uh music that we do we've always done at the end of the program which I always hear the slightest dash of rhapsody and blue in but it isn't it's your original composition but it has Gershwin undertones. Rhapsody is Rhapsody and blue Gersh Gershwin? Yeah Okay Okay alright it just had a moment of panic there.

We normally have a ba da da ba ba da da da which I think is just lovely. Thank you for lending that to the podcast it it dresses the thing up but then sometimes something will happen in the episode where you hear it and you're like yeah it reminds me of a song or a joke or a funny line or whatever. And then uh Jeff who is a musical wizard and sees it like Neo could read The Matrix he just takes the five minutes and makes something happen and then all of a sudden there's a little musical homage or pastiche or tribute at the end that's kind of a fun Easter egg.

So there now everybody's up to speed on that. What did you do this this chapter? What do we have musically?

Well there is a really awesome YouTube rabbit hole I went down where they took Lindsay Buckingham's holiday road and put it over really inappropriate movie scenes and it's hilarious. Oh dear like when the Titanic sinks I think I saw that. That was in my head and you recorded from the campground and so I had to do that as the out was that chapter three?

Yeah.

That was forever ago that I was at Glacier inhaling wildfire smoke and trying to do a podcast.

Okay. Yeah what else you got occasionally there is such a perfect connection a reference thematically not because you mentioned the song but because there's a lyric that totally hits the theme and you did a whole episode on do you worry what people think of you oh and you did uh you did a little homage to the 21 pilots and I had 21 pilots just running through my head during that whole edit so yeah it's Flurry Face and I can't what you think that was effective in chapter three did did you do another Toto great classic hymn of the faith mashup or was that chapter two?

No that was chapter three and that one was for you it was uh how great thou art and Pamela and Pamela because you hummed How Great Thou Art one of those like the second or third verse lyrics you you brought into the episode and I'm like okay now I have to do how great thou art and you love Pamela and I do too but that was kind of the last remaining Toto song even if people don't know Pamela.

What was great about that one was a lot of like weird chords and even key changes in Pamela that I had to figure out how to make How Great Thou Art work over was a fun challenge for me.

Of the four Toto mashups that you have done on this program Pamela is obviously the least popular Joseph Williams is singing on that song and Joseph Williams is famously the musical voice of young Simba so I just can't wait to be king. And John Williams's son. Yeah is the lead singer of Toto. He's also the gummy bears guy right Joseph Williams dashing and daring courageous and caring blah blah blah something with gummy berry juice I think that's him blah blah with something I don't know the words yeah I would imagine he had a pretty good career there with his famous dad I think that was him yeah I I think that's Joseph Williams on the gummy bears Nepo baby I don't know he's pretty good I'm gonna

give him a pass on that one that one's just bonkers. I played that for my dad by the way both my parents are you know music majors vocal and instrumental performance teaching maybe double majors I don't know they're good they were both my music appreciation teachers at some point and they were also both my choir and band directors at some point they're good they know what they're doing.

And my dad he was sitting in a chair across from me about a week ago and I was playing him stuff from the podcast. First I played Pamela by Toto then I played your mashup and this wry smile came over his face when he recognized the hymn and he just he did he has this look where he just you know he giggles about Jeff is a genius he's Matt he's brilliant and I was like oh okay well I'll tell Jeff that later I'll make him feel good.

That's awesome my dad who knows what he's talking about thinks you're thinks you're real real good at this stuff.

You told the story when we went to see the strike in Fort Collins so I did a strike song.

Oh yeah the strike is great I unapologetically recommend them. They're good.

No kidding great music the other thing that I have on my list is two different movie references Usual Suspects and Shawshank you referenced, which we don't recommend anybody watch ever. No, or any movie. But they required as far as I was concerned the musical punchlines at the end of the episodes from each of those movie soundtracks.

Did you do one for the usual suspects? Yeah it's the music cue right after you find out the twist I must have missed it. Well both of those soundtracks Usual Suspects and Shawshank they're not like John Williams's big themes. They're more mood but the moments like when you find out the twist at Usual Suspects or Shawshank when he spoiler alert comes out of the sewage pipe like those musical cues are what I remember and I thought I gotta put those two in the world and then I appreciated you slipping in an homage to Rhythm of the night by Corona on the episode where I mentioned Widows Bay a show that is great but I just simply I mean should I recommend it Jeff no I should not recommend it and I

do not recommend it.

No it is offensive don't recommend any art. I was offended every piece of art ever I don't recommend any art except for the strike right I recommend that or you know my music you should recommend that. Oh yeah well obviously that I highly recommend that. Speaking of which how do people get your music?

What's your newest stuff?

Well I have a couple things I'm working on that are not ready yet but Rooktown is the name of the band and that's on all of your streaming sites.

Maybe we'll be ready when we do our chapter four retrospective to talk about the project that we're working on right now but no let's just tease it a little bit okay how would you describe what we're working on I think the journey into John chapters one through three has ignited in both of us a really good desire to have better songs to sing about Jesus.

Yep that's a good tease cool thanks Jeffrey just last things because this tapestry of John is so dense just a heads up that chapter six is looming oh dear it's it's looming I see what you did.

I'll try not to shuttle through it too quickly I regret nothing see you buddy thanks to you

BONUS EPISODE - Matt and Jeff Review John 3

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