S2E3: Red Badge. The Mentalist Rewatch

Owain Yeoman: Welcome to episode three, red badge. what a pleasure it is

Ashley Gable: Thank you.

Owain Yeoman: to have you here, Ashley. I know we tried and failed last time.

T: Owen's having some technical issues. See. There he is.

Ashley Gable: There he is. Hey. no.

T: Wait, let me get the hilarious This is

Ashley Gable: I think you should do the whole podcast like this.

Owain Yeoman: it seems like the internet gods are with us today boy are we in for a treat and we're so so excited to have

Ashley Gable: Don't jinx it.

Owain Yeoman: you here. you are such a pivotal and beloved part of our mentalist family. And, the other day as I was saying to Tim, you know, if Bruno was mentalist dad, I think it would be fair to say that you were mentalist mom.

T: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: w would that be an okay mantle to lay on you? because

Ashley Gable: I would be very flattered.

Owain Yeoman: good. So I I I feel and it's meant with the highest of praise. you know, we we're really, really excited to dig into this fabulous episode. And I think that Red Badge is a wonderful example of What we've got to come in season two. And one of the first times that I think that we've really started leaning outside of the Patrick Jane storyline, which I thought was nice.

Ashley Gable: Whoop

Owain Yeoman: It was really nice to see a Lisbon-centric

T: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: episode. But before we get too deeply into that, I wanted to talk a little bit about your journey to the show We really, really want to hear about what brought you to the mentalist,

T: how you got here.

Owain Yeoman: I know that you came up In the Buffyverse, is that right?

Ashley Gable: That was my first job. I was an attorney and then the next day I was writing about vampires. So it's great.

Owain Yeoman: So how d how does that pivot come about? How do we go from courtrooms to to vampires?

Ashley Gable: Well, it turns out I'm really dumb. And also I was ra also I was raised in Atlanta, Georgia, in the eighties. And so Hollywood was not a thing, like in my brain, really. I'd always you know written stuff, but if you're a writer, that's a nice hobby, but you know, you're you're not gonna have any money, And so what are you gonna talk about at Christmas with your family? And so maybe you know you could be a lawyer like dad. And then write on the side is just a nice little hobby. And so that worked great until I was in law school. And then I realized, my God, people write all this TV I'm watching and it's a job, they pay you. And so it was sort of like this, it like this feeling of recognition, like, that's what I'm supposed to be doing. It would have been good if I'd figured that out before law school, but that's what happened. So I got a book from from a bookstore about how to write screenplays.

Owain Yeoman: What was the book, do you remember?

Ashley Gable: I think it was like how to write screenplays or something. I can't remember.

Owain Yeoman: Love it. Love it. We'll drop that in we'll drop that in the chat. Yeah.

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: And and the book said if you want to write for TV, you need to move to Los Angeles. So after law school, I took the California bar and moved to Los Angeles. And I was right, you know, the book said write write, you know, spec scripts, you know, s sort of writing samples. So I was doing that. And then basically got a job. almost a about a year, a little less than a year after I moved to LA. So it worked out great.

Owain Yeoman: What is what

T: Wow

Owain Yeoman: is demystify that process a little bit for the people outside the entertainment industry? What is a spec script?

Ashley Gable: Right. Well the process has changed because we're talking about the Paleolithic era when I was starting out. So but back then you wouldn't write an original screenplay or or a pilot like you do now. you would write an episode for a show that is is quality show and won't get canceled in the next two years. Because you need you don't once it's cancelled it's hard to use that as a writing sample. So I think I wrote it was a show called Picket Fences, David Kelly show that was on.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: And I wrote an NYPD blue.

T: See ya.

Ashley Gable: and then basically my you know, my my baby agent sort of papered the town and and I got an interview with Jos Wheedon.

Owain Yeoman: That must have been an interesting room to come up in. Joss Whedon, obviously, you know, a very, very famed name. you started with a co-writer, right? Thomas Sweden, is it? Yeah. Sweden, thank you.

Ashley Gable: Yes, Tom Sweden. Swiden, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: What was the whole process under Joss? Was that a great learning curve? I imagine that there was An awful lot to take away from that. I bet. I bet.

Ashley Gable: It was an exponentially steep learning curve for me 'cause I didn't even have

T: Mm. Mm.

Ashley Gable: the I didn't have even have a writer wardrobe. Like I was wearing the scary like power suits with the shoulder pads. 'Cause that's the only that's the only that's the only clothes

T: Amazing.

Ashley Gable: I owned, you know. but

Owain Yeoman: Love it.

Ashley Gable: I scared people on set because they thought I was an executive and they're like, What is she doing here? Like who is she?

T: Right, right. Yeah, right.

Owain Yeoman: That's actually great strategy. Dress like an exec, hiding as a writer. I love it.

T: Intimidation factor, yeah.

Ashley Gable: Exactly. But I think actually being in a partnership was why we got hired 'cause Joss was given like a buck fifty to pay for the writing staff, first season of Buffy. I mean this was a mid season replacement on a network that had only existed for one year before. So

T: Right.

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: it was, you know, rough. So he hired us and two other writing teams and then there's a producer who left first season. And then there was a coexecutive producer that they basically an experienced, drama showrunner, that they paired him with David Greenwald, who's terrific. and so that was that was the team. But Joss, I think smartly wanted a as many voices in the room as he could find for the little money he was given to pay for it. Yeah.

T: That sounds familiar, right? With, how Bruno, we've overheard that Bruno kind of handles it the same way, right? As many voices as possible. And everybody could chime in on scripts and everything.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Owain Yeoman: What was the when when you were starting off and working with Joss, what was the landscape like for female writers? did you feel well represented as a woman? Right.

Ashley Gable: Little bit. Yeah, for the first for the first ten years of my career, I was the only woman. And shows would shows would only hire one woman. And so I was told several times,

Owain Yeoman: Really? Wow.

Ashley Gable: that show's already hired their woman. So

T: Wow.

Owain Yeoman: That's crazy. That's crazy. We're good for women. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: it's like, okay. You know, a writer, a writer I know would

T: It's like, it's like an unspoken quota. mean, you could, you could you know, we, it was spoken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: it was spoken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're

Owain Yeoman: Wow. Wow.

Ashley Gable: and some, you know, some showrunners didn't like having women writers on the show. so for the first ten years I was usually the only woman Or there might be maybe a staff writer or something like that. so it was it was not great.

T: what are those different writing room positions and what's that hierarchy like? So you have the writers that are the sort of full-fledged writers that can do an episode through the guidance

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

T: or the overseeing by the showrunner, And then have story editor, staff writer. What are these different positions?

Ashley Gable: Yeah, ideally

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, it's a great question.

Ashley Gable: they really just refer to your seniority. I mean, you know, hopefully every writer would be getting a script. that's what happened on Mentalist. it's just, you know, differing levels of experience. and you know, and money.

T: And what are the titles? the general title would be writer, right? And then if you drill down

Ashley Gable: Yes.

T: into the sort of the specifics of it, you would have senior writer, staff writer.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, it's staff staff writer is is a beginning writer. And then story editor, executive story editor, co-producer, producer, co-executive producer, executive producer. And there's also like weird ones consulting producer, it's usually a senior writer, but they're not getting their quote, so so they choose the title of consulting instead.

Owain Yeoman: as a very female centered show, obviously Buffy, titular character, powerhouse young woman, was there a feeling that you would to handle the more female storylines, like as the sole woman in the room? No, right. So that's interesting that there wasn't a feeling that

Ashley Gable: No. No. I mean just

Owain Yeoman: women should be responsible for writing women?

Ashley Gable: I think every good writer should be able to write everything. I would say that there is a deserved sensitivity about race sometimes because I don't pretend to speak for, black women but that's why that's why I think Bruno wanted to get a bunch of different voices in the room and other showrunners I've I've worked for have done that. they sort of cast the writer's room in a way. Because they think,

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: she was in the army, she'll be able to have experience that we can draw on for this character who's in the Navy or, you know, or army or whatever. so that's why you want to get as many writers as you can and as diverse a group as you

Owain Yeoman: fast forward to mentalist then that you've got experience under your belt, you're coming in at co EP level. Right. So

Ashley Gable: Yes, yeah. I've been I've been working since ninety six and this was two thousand and eight, right after the strike. So

Owain Yeoman: Eight. Right. Right.

T: Were you the most senior writer on the staff? Was Tom up there?

Ashley Gable: No, no, no, no, no. Thompson Georgie started second season. First season

Owain Yeoman: Second season, that's right.

Ashley Gable: first season the number two was Gary Glassberg who went on who went on to NCIS

T: Yeah. That's right. That's right, Gary. Yeah, God rest in.

Owain Yeoman: Gary Glassberg, I guess, yeah. Yeah. talk to us then about the how the mentalist came about. So you've you know, as you say, eight or so plus years of T V experience, you are now no longer the the junior in the room.

Ashley Gable: Right.

Owain Yeoman: What is the process? Show? Are you invited in to meet with Bruno? we've had some stories from Ken, from Erica, from various other writers about what that looked like.

Ashley Gable: I got invited in by Bruno, and Bruno did something that I've never seen another showrunner do, but it was really smart, is he asked you ahead of time, please prepare three stories. Just beginning, middle, end. Not not a whole pitch, you know, anything like that. But he really wanted to see what kind of story sense you had. And a lot of times showrunners will ask that in the room, but I was I I felt very good. I was very pleased that he gave me advance notice so I could actually work on it more, you know. so I pitched him the three stories and I guess he didn't hate them. I watched the pilot

Owain Yeoman: Do you do you remember what those stories were?

Ashley Gable: I actually did one of them as my as my season three episode where this woman when Jane was a fake psychic, a client of his, her son goes missing,

Owain Yeoman: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: and that was this that was one of the stories I pitched. So I th it was either fourth

Owain Yeoman: Interesting.

Ashley Gable: it might have been fourth season. I can't remember.

Owain Yeoman: at that point you you've received the script. So a lot like an actor, that's all you've really got to work with at that point, right? Y I'm assuming you knew Bruno by reputation. Had you guys ever worked together prior to the mentalists?

Ashley Gable: I didn't know him from Adam. I had met his his

Owain Yeoman: Really?

Ashley Gable: wife, who was an exec at HBO, and I'd actually pitched something

Owain Yeoman: Mm. That's right, yeah.

Ashley Gable: to her. and she she really helped me out. I mean I ended up getting a a pilot in sort of the same area to do with a with another writer for HBO. And so so I knew her and I sorry we chatted about about her and I was very how I was grateful to her and everything. I saw on your podcast that Erica had said she thought that sh it she was maybe partially considered because she's a person of faith. And I wonder

Owain Yeoman: Mm.

Ashley Gable: if that's what was something that for me too, because the pilot was actually about a televangelist. And so it dealt it dealt with who fucks hookers? it dealt with, you know, ish issues of faith and you know, hypocrisy and and everything else. So I wonder if that's what interested him.

Owain Yeoman: Was that was that a big part of your meeting? So w i have you been able to interesting.

Ashley Gable: No, it wasn't actually. That's why I only when I saw Erica saying that I was like, I wonder if that boy, that was a bad idea on his part, if that's what he wanted. But

T: you

Owain Yeoman: A lot of a lot of the stories that we've heard from from co writers all sort of and you've touched on it as well, all sort of mentioned Bruno's slightly unconventional approach to things and

T: Hmm

Owain Yeoman: how, you know,

Ashley Gable: yeah.

Owain Yeoman: I I I guess that was a unique thing, asking for the multitude of stories to be prepared. interestingly again about and Bruno, for those of us who know Bruno, know that he's utterly unique. So was that approach sort of something that you felt was taken throughout the whole process from beginning to end,

Ashley Gable: Bruno would always say, like, I've never done TV before, which was kind of true. he'd never done network, certainly. He had done Rome, of course, which was very well re very well received. and I think he'd like rewritten a pilot for somebody the year before but he'd never done a conventional network show, run a network show, which is kind of has a well developed Infrastructure. And so I think actually his greatest gift was he didn't know stuff. So he didn't fall into these traps

T: That way we've heard that before,

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: of like, well, this is how we've always done it. And so I mean he has a scene, he has a scene in the in the pilot. I don't know if it made it, it made it into I it was in the script I read. I don't know if it made it into the show, But it was like the main character sitting on the toilet while he's doing something other than you know being on the John. so I thought that's interesting. and then I was able to see the pilot. in the the olden days, they used to like keep it carefully guarded and then they would only let you see it like right before the interview. So you'd show up an hour early to watch the pilot. And I just thought it was great. I really loved it. And it was and it was so different. Like it was it was that opening scene is just amazing.

Owain Yeoman: Was that something that excited you as a writer? The idea of being able to sort of tonally mix things up? Because Typically genres are quite strict, aren't they? This is drama, this is comedy, and stay in your lane.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, d definitely the humor attracted me. 'cause I like I like writing f you know funny funny dramas. And even though it was sometimes black humor, I read it and I thought I can I can do that. I can write that. you know, it took a while but I eventually got the grasp of it.

Owain Yeoman: one thing that I quickly wanted to ask, just to piggyback off Tim's earlier question was co EP to EP. What changed

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: in the brief of your job? Because you started as a co EP and ended up being executive producer on the show, right? So what is the

Ashley Gable: Right.

Owain Yeoman: change of responsibility there

Ashley Gable: it was just in my contract. I mean it's it's usually what they try to do is hold you to as many years as they can at as little money and as little title as they can. So basically

Owain Yeoman: Right. Sure.

Ashley Gable: it was just like time had come due and they needed to to, you know, give me the promotion if they wanted to keep me,

Owain Yeoman: Was it a supportive room to be in? Did you did you feel like because some of the some of the stories I've heard of Hollywood writers rooms is that they can be terribly frightening places. Is would you say that that was the case on ours? Right, okay.

Ashley Gable: I think that's mainly comedy. It's I think mainly comedies can be scary because they're funny and they're mean. So so you never want to be in that situation.

Owain Yeoman: Shop.

Ashley Gable: But no, the writers I think the writer's room was pretty nurturing for mentalist. you know, Bruno sort of set the tone of being a very generous writer and being Happy, thrilled even, if somebody else other than him came up with a really good idea. Because it meant that maybe he could

Owain Yeoman: Mm.

Ashley Gable: go home in time for dinner tonight. I think Bruno's always he was very secure in him himself as a writer, not not arrogant, but he was just very, he was confident that he was, creating a show that was that people would want to watch, and in fact he was correct. so I think that that kind of translated down. We tried to, I I'm sure I didn't succeed all the time. you know in giving notes to not be a dick about it and particularly for you know the the first time you write a script professionally is terrifying. so to try to give notes that I thought would help the writer, when Bruno gets it, when Bruno gets the gets the copy

Owain Yeoman: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Gable: and stuff like that. And I would say to the producer question, it's imperative that you are able to be a producer on your own episode. Because you know the episode

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: better than pretty much anybody. but

T: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Gable: you just have to be ruthless about production 'cause if we can't afford it it's not going on the air.

Owain Yeoman: I I guess you le you also

Ashley Gable: And and work in in in in in cooperation with the director especially through prep to sort of really try to to share everything you know about this script so that the director can succeed.

Owain Yeoman: the shift from network into streaming. Do you have a preference and how has that process changed? And does it impact your creative process?

Ashley Gable: with streaming, it's sort of like cable used to be. You're able to tell stories that that won't get on, you know, network television. So that's the the advantage. But the disadvantage is large. the shorter orders. you know, in on Mentalist we ended up doing like twenty-four episodes sometimes, which was insane

Owain Yeoman: Crazy, yeah.

Ashley Gable: and horrible and a nightmare, but it enabled us to tell different stories and it was a lot more money.

Owain Yeoman: Yes, it was. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: If you're only if you're only making six six episodes, that's not enough

T: Right.

Ashley Gable: just to sustain a career if that's the only gig you're getting that year. So it means you have to get

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: you have to get two or maybe even three jobs a year to try to sustain yourself and your family. it's it's made

T: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Gable: it very difficult for writers. they're also now, since they can't seem to figure out what to do with streaming, they're cutting back a lot. They were just throwing money at it, throwing money at it. We need new content, we need new content all the time. And that's no longer the case. So a lot of writers who had, a career for three or four years doing streaming now find themselves unable to get a job because they're just there's just fewer shows.

T: Do you think that there might be a revisit to that old style? 23, 24 episodes,

Ashley Gable: think so in streaming. it's even had a backwards effect in network that they're 17

Owain Yeoman: Mm.

Ashley Gable: episodes instead which frankly is better for the sanity of everyone involved but but you know it's still a shorter order than it than it used to be.

Owain Yeoman: you're on the WGA negotiating committee. Talk to us a little bit about

Ashley Gable: I was. I I was in twenty twenty three when we went on strike, yeah.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, talk to us a little bit about the inside of that. it has been a challenging, I would say, six plus years for the industry, maybe longer, through actor strikes, writer strikes, COVID, all of the bounce back and repercussions from that. In fact, I would argue that LA is still struggling to recover from all of those things combined. But there there has been a feeling

Ashley Gable: Hundred percent, hundred percent.

Owain Yeoman: Certainly I know I live it on the actors side of incremental gains and yet still so much left to do.

Ashley Gable: we've had a negotiation since then, so we're on a a different contract from that which was negotiated in twenty twenty three. But twenty twenty three an up an an issue that came up like at the last possible second was AI. because I started on the negotiating committee in October Of twenty two, so six to eight months before we went on strike. And it was sort of like a like, yeah, and then there's something called AI, and some people care about it and whatever. And then by the time, our our deadline for the contract had rolled around, it was a huge issue with the membership. everyone was really worried that there were not protections for writers. and so that was one issue that came up at the last second where we did make some beginning gains. The way these negotiations always work out is there's a new issue. in the in the 2007 and 208 strike, it was: does the guild Cover the internet. Is that our jurisdiction? And of course we said yes, and they said, no, what's this internet? We don't know what we're doing. And so our first contract for you know to get internet was you know not the greatest, but every year, every every negotiating session after that, we were able to get more gains in. So I feel that with some issues. 2023, it was in the the same the same boat because we were trying to address these these root development rooms. Basically, instead of one guy writing, you know, instead of Bruno writing the pilot on his own and then and then selling it and then we get a s a season order, let's hire writers, There would be a small writing staff, you know, five people, and they would do six scripts. And from that you would decide whether you're gonna pick up the show to to actually produce it. And so that was a that was a big issue in T

T: you

Ashley Gable: V that we were trying to protect against. So we came up with this framework of for for X number of episodes, six episodes, you have to hire this many writers at at these at these levels. we were trying to find a way to deal with this new reality. And that has continued to be an issue. and then there was and then stuff comes up like, you know, our health fund needs more money. And so that became a a big issue in the last negotiation that just happened.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, and I think that's that's something across the board. People don't realise that, something as as paramount as insurance for performers and for writers and producers is tied very intimately to your earnings capability. And so you have that double whammy sometimes of maybe having a bad year, which then also means that you then lose your health insurance. So

Ashley Gable: Yep.

Owain Yeoman: it it's and I've seen that rife across social media recently in these harder, leaner years.

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: what is still yet to be done? from a WGA standpoint, from a writer standpoint, w what are the the key things that you would love to see some redress on today?

Ashley Gable: I would like more money to be put into the health fund. because of course as as you alluded to, like when a bunch of writers aren't putting money into the health fund or aren't getting you know the companies to put money in the health fund because they don't they're not working, that affects our health fund a lot. and and health fund obligations are very immediate. Like one premi could cost about a million dollars, and and if you have like four premies, that's gonna tank the health fund, like for that year. You know, so it's it's a very

Owain Yeoman: Why, why?

Ashley Gable: sort of a delicate. Balance. So that's one thing. And I think we need to build on the gains we've made in with regard to these you know minimum numbers of writers hired in in television. And then you know, feature writers have their own issues with free work, like having to do like like so many outlines and everything else for free before they even get the job. It's it's really a scandal. and it's very difficult for one writer to say, No, I'm not gonna do that, because they'll just go on to the next guy. So that's something that's that's good to to try to take collective action on if possible. So

Owain Yeoman: I I think you're absolutely right. I think we're all united in hoping to see more support for creatives because I have yet to sit in a theater and have the hair stand up on my arm from a robot. I'm yet to read a script that's been written by generative AI that makes me want to cry or makes me laugh out loud. And, you know, I hope we can always remember that what I call the human genius factor. is the very essence of of our business.

T: What do you have for two three red badge by Ashley Gable?

Crystal Watanabe: another shipper spotlight. the hug and the head tap when Jane hypnotizes Lisbon in her apartment. also when Jane perks up when Lisbon says, The new male guy is really hot he's like,

T: Yes. Yes.

Crystal Watanabe: also just Lisbon crying and showing vulnerability and Jane assuring her that everything's gonna be okay because she doesn't show vulnerability to anybody on the team, but she chooses to show it to Jane. So I feel like that shows that she trusts him on a level that she doesn't necessarily trust everybody else. Because I don't think she would do that with the rest of the team. Well, that little shimmy that she does is something that we fixate on a lot. we love that part. I mean it's so cute. at the beginning of the episode when they find the body, she says, anybody wants to go get a bear claw at Marie's donuts? Like apparently like people really fixate on that bear claw mansion. But at the end of the episode, he actually brings her a bag for Marie's donuts. I thought that was really like a nice little considerate thing that he does for her. And also he he just looks back at her before he leaves the office at the end too. this is a fan favorite episode just because we get so much background in her. We l we

T: Mm-hmm.

Crystal Watanabe: learn about The line between her eyebrows that Jane mentions in the beginning and the bear claw thing and her Spice Girls love and she wears that Lisbon jersey. And not only that, but we get backstory on like her family that has the photo of her brothers in the apartment. the doctor draws out the the story of her abusive father and she talks about the thing that happened with her brother. And then we also get a little ba bit of background into her SFP D career. And it's just it's just there was so much information on Lisbon and it was just it's a great episode that people like to fixate on, if you talk about a fan like me who is like in the fandom a long time and I I just stay in it and I just stay like engaged and things like that, there's a lot of people like me and I think they come from like old school TV watching too, where they realize that the show is about all the characters, you know, they they wanna know more about all the people. there's a lot of people out there who would love a lot more about the rest of the team. They wanna know more about Cho they want know about Rigsby and Van Pelt. I know there are a lot of Van Pelt fans who are upset that there's no more to Van Pelt, right?

T: Right. Right.

Crystal Watanabe: So because she doesn't really get her own storyline episodes other than, you know, her failed boyfriends. You know, so

T: It's right.

Crystal Watanabe: so I I think a lot of us would have preferred like, you know, lear learning more about her family and like her where she came from. You know, sh all we know is

T: Yeah.

Crystal Watanabe: she's from Iowa. That's it. one one last one, fan favorite

T: Yes, please.

Crystal Watanabe: lines in the beginning when they tell Lisbon that she's busted and then Jane comes in, he's like and he slaps her on the shoulder, he's I bet you wish you wore gloves, huh?

T: Yes.

Crystal Watanabe: I love that one. It's so funny.

T: Can you talk a bit about the process of writing a character-centric episode like this one? How deep into character development do you go? do you determine who Lisbon's favorite spice girl is? If so, Who is it?

Ashley Gable: I went very deep into her background actually. There's a there's a photograph of her of three three young boys who have her same hair color. and it's it's supposed to be her three brothers. And she took the picture. That's why she's not in it. So I went deep into what her backstory was and then just let the actor deal deal with it herself because Robin so as you know is so talented. She brought so much to it. and especially, you know, in the conversations she has with the shrink about you know, anger and about tamping it down, I felt like that was something she played really well in the episode.

T: there were a lot of things in the episode that we dispensed with in later seasons. For example, do you know why we stopped using that catwalk with the offices, right?

Ashley Gable: That was a new set edition for second season. That was not part of first season. I think we got also like the break room and an elevator. that you know, that remember the elevator area? I think

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: those were all at the same time, the summer, you know, over the over the hiatus those were built. And the catwalk was just such a pain to shoot in. It would took forever to light it. And it's not that long. So it's not like you could do pages and pages of dialogue there. So it was this was episode three of second season. And so everybody wanted to try out the new stuff. Like the directors were like I remember Chris Long saying how one of the other directors had dirtied the elevator because he got there first, you know, before Chris could shoot it. And so I so I think Eric Lenouville, the director, really wanted to give it a try, but i it was a pain and I think subsequent directors decided it was a pain too, so

T: so your episode was utilizing that catwalk a bit? there was an episode later on, I think the spiral staircase was showcased a little bit and not the catwalk. You know what I mean? We did the did it in

Ashley Gable: yeah. Yeah.

T: like segments of this episode's gonna be spiral staircase. you know, we're gonna be looking at that. And so, yeah, it's pretty funny. Right, right.

Ashley Gable: Right. Right. Which actor are we gonna kill by making them knock down fall down the stairs?

T: was that the only time that we got a chance to see Lisbon's apartment?

Ashley Gable: there was a lot of attention to and the actress, you know, approved everything about what would her apartment be like. Bruno's idea was like the the the beat about I like your I like the art on your walls and she says, that's that's from the last tenant. that was a note that I think was was really revealing and interesting about her.

T: I think that worked. Yeah. setting up Dr. Carmen, that conceit, so she was actually pretending like she was loopy i in the very opening, right? Wearing the wearing the jersey. and she and you could see the the pills in the fo sorry.

Ashley Gable: In the opening of that act, the last act. In the opening of the last act? Yeah. Which is wearing a hockey jersey. Yeah.

T: Yeah. So my I guess my qu in the hockey jersey. So my question then is what is the purpose besides setting up the audience that Lisbon is totally high or you know, drunk or whatever? She wasn't that at all. So my question is as an actor, why why

Ashley Gable: Desperate, yeah. No. She was enjoying her she was enjoying herself 'cause think th she the character was just having fun with it at that point, like, here's some pills I'll throw and here and here's the you know, here's the bottle of booze and and and I have to share this though. She was supposed to be listening to the Spice Girls. in that scene.

T: That was my assumption.

Ashley Gable: It's not because we would because the producer wouldn't pay for it. It would have been fifty thousand dollars for the Spice

T: yes. You're right.

Ashley Gable: Girls. So, you know, I was disappointed but I can't really argue with it. So

T: Sure, sure. That's a that's a pretty penny. because at a certain point I was thinking, if this is a setup, why is she dancing? But it is Lisbon having fun with setting up everything to set up Dr. Carmen. Yes, that's

Ashley Gable: Exactly, 'cause she's been at such a low point, thinking like I can't remember this and then and then Jane has explained No, you didn't do it, so let's go get this guy. So

T: Yeah. Yeah. that's great.

Ashley Gable: So I think she's a ebullient about that.

T: when Cho makes that comment of, yeah, Friedman or whoever, he bit me. Yeah. That was

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

T: really cool. Like, okay, this was a case that Cho worked on, doesn't have anything to do with Red John

Ashley Gable: Right.

T: And so that was fun to me. And so I wouldn't have minded seeing similar things for Van Pelt or, And you said we didn't go home with these folks and I understand why, because that's not the kind of show it was. In lieu of going home with these folks, this could have been a nice way to. Color the characters a little bit more and give them a few more dimensions.

Ashley Gable: That's a really good point. you know this. the challenge of telling a story in what did we have, 44 minutes, is that you've you've got to service the main story. You've got to you know keep driving it so you don't so you don't get so it doesn't you know take the energy out of it. the mentalist it's a deceptively difficult show to write because

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: you have to break every every show twice. You have to figure out, okay, what's the zany thing that Jane is doing and it doesn't make any sense until the very end when you realize how he's trapped the killer. And then there's all the cool real cop stuff. That the rest of the team is doing, and that has to pay off, that has to have its own sort of dynamic. and I think actually Red Badge is a really good example of that. because you guys got, I mean, you guys caught the ultimate bad guy, not not Jane and Lisbon. Jane and Lisbon were dealing with sort of her personal story and the shrink. And then you guys were had this whole other journey, you know. You know, your antagonist is Bosco, because he's trying to stop you from investigating so I think when you're breaking the you know, particularly when you're breaking the cop side of things, it's just hard to find room for, you know, sort of frolic and detours.

T: what other Miles Thor Thorsen type stories are there and do they also have names?

Ashley Gable: gosh. At one point, I think in season four, I think we got the writer's assistant to actually go through every episode and try to categorize them. So that's where the Miles Thorsen came in. And I can't remember anything about that document, but they there is a document somewhere that lists the d the different types. Yeah.

T: That that would be amazing if we could get a hold of that document.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, I don't know what happened to it. But it was

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: intr it was actually an interesting exercise because it wasn't c conscious that you would be like, let's do the Miles Thorsen, at least it wasn't for me. But it would just end up the way Jane works, there are going to be I want to say finite, but there are going to be sometimes categories of takedowns. can I show you my prop So okay. I don't know if you guys remember this song. thank you.

T: absolutely. Let's take a look. And love the hack. look at that.

Owain Yeoman: I would love to see a prop, please.

Ashley Gable: So this

Owain Yeoman: Did you tear that off the wall on your way out?

Ashley Gable: It was given to me, but I would have. So you guys you

Owain Yeoman: Ha ha.

T: right.

Ashley Gable: guys remember when we started off at the show, we were in the village, Warner Village, which for

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: those for those who don't know, it's it's basically a bunch of offices in certain part of the lot, but they're on the outside they look like these adorable little, you know, suburban houses. Because then they

T: cottages. Yeah. Right.

Ashley Gable: then you can shoot on that street. So you can shoot, you know, If you're looking for a suburban neighborhood, then that's that's the thing. and so Cold Case,

Owain Yeoman: That's the place.

Ashley Gable: which was across the street from us at the village, had a sign that said cold case. And so they had to get special permission for it because, you know, whatever. They had to take it down when they were shooting. But I saw that and I was like, why don't we have one? We need to have one. And so after some wrangling, they let they let the production department make this sign, which I loved. And so that went outside our thing. But I think because I was sort of the main pain in the ass that got the sign, d you know, got it got it done. When I when I left after season four Or they gave it to me as a present. So I thought that was

T: It was only right. It was only right to give it to you.

Owain Yeoman: Red Badge, season two, episode three, writer Ashley Gable, directed by Eric Laneville. Ridge in the air on Thursday, October the eighth, two thousand nine, to fourteen point seven million viewers. Just astounding. Parole Charlie Molester McTea, a man Lisbon put away as a San Francisco PD inspector working under Sam Bosco, turns up shot dead in an alley. Lisbon's fingerprint is on the murder weapon, and she has no memory of the night when he died. her badge and gun taken and the case handed to Bosco, the team works it off the books while Jane sets out to prove the boss he trusts most didn't do it. Even as Lisbon herself starts to doubt it. So, first of all, let's talk about. where this episode originated from for you. what are you told to sort of be setting up? Now we're really, really beginning to give what I thought was Robin A very well deserved moment here. Was that a conscious decision from the start?

Ashley Gable: Yeah, I think to sort of set the scene, second season was really different from the first for one thing we had a new senior writer on board, Thomson Georgie, and I think all the writers who moved from first season to second season, I think we felt more confident. we learned how to write the show, we learned how to write to your strengths, and people liked it. People liked the show a lot. and Bruno being Bruno, you know, basically gave us a chance to sort of you know fly free. Because like I like I mentioned earlier, he's very secure in his own skin. He's very secure as a writer. He didn't he didn't feel threatened when somebody came with a in with a you know a a different idea. He actually always tried to give people opportunities to do something a little different, stretch the scope of the show a little bit. Part of what enabled me as a writer to be able to tell a story that was a little more personal, you know, about one of our main characters. And then also because of that, it made it much more personal for every other character. I mean, your whole story arc, was about like, okay, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna help Lisbon? Are we you know, so everybody felt more more invested

Owain Yeoman: Mm.

Ashley Gable: in it. That was kind of fun. Red Badge is a good example of a weird quirk of the show in that You had to break every story twice. I think we talked about this, Tim, there's always the the inscrutable, weird, zany stuff that Jane is getting into, and you don't really know why until at the end he pulls a trick and gets the killer to reveal himself. But what are our real cops doing? Like, how are they advancing the story? What pieces

Owain Yeoman: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Gable: are they bringing to you know from their own experience? I will tell you this, it always really helped because you anything we threw at you guys, you could make it more fun and better. So that was really a gift. and and you know and you made it not dry, like you made it you made it an interesting story, to you know to sort of to rival the the Jane story. And so Red Badge is a good example of this, I think, because you guys with with Amanda's character break off at an entirely, you know, different investigation. So, you know, Lisbon and Jane are trying to figure out her deal with the s hypnotism and the JD kind of stuff. But then your team is the one that actually catches the mastermind behind the crime, you know, not Jane and Lisbon. So and and it's and it's an emotional and personal story for you guys because your characters cared about the Lisbon character.

Owain Yeoman: And I loved seeing that because I think if we'd be speaking to Terry Kinney later in the season who was wonderful as Sam Bosco and

Ashley Gable: he's so great.

Owain Yeoman: you know and we yeah, we all agreed that he was wonderful and a lovely onset presence too. And I think that what was really interesting about introducing the Bosco character was that it gave us something to galvanize as a team against. So now we were

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: sort of not so much up against Jane and it wasn't the institution versus the con man, it was this is our

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: new collective team against The higher authority. And I think that,

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: poor Minelli had been steamrolled so many times that I think his authority was beginning to wane a little bit. God bless

T: You

Ashley Gable: Little bit.

Owain Yeoman: Greg. you know, and he's he did he he performed

T: was, there was a moment though, that I really liked when he stood up and it was a side to Manali that we hadn't seen ever when he says, don't to Lisbon when, and

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

T: he's never, put his foot down in that way And that was the first little inkling of I'm done with you. And it was very serious moment.

Owain Yeoman: Mm-hmm.

T: And I, latched onto and loved it. Something that we hadn't seen.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, I really liked I really liked their father daughter vibe that was going on that she she was didn't want to disappoint him and he was I just thought that was a really rich area that that I hadn't really seen. But I think Robin and Greg brought it.

Owain Yeoman: I I've come to appreciate that even more sadly, you know, post Greg's passing too, you know, and I I as we've gone back and i it it's also it's always sad to reflect on the people that we've lost, but enjoying

Ashley Gable: I know.

Owain Yeoman: so much Greg's performance and you know, he he he has the same warmth as a boss as he does did as an actor. I remember always being very happy to have Greg on set. He was a great on set presence, as

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: was as was Terry Kinney. So where did where does this episode start creatively for you? You've got a little bit of a conceit that's preempted with the psychiatrist. You've set the psychiatrist up nicely, played by Christian, was it? I'm trying to remember his name.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, Chris Clemenson yeah

Owain Yeoman: Yeah. Rather wonderful actor, I thought. And in my first rewatch of this, I completely forgot he was the guy. So what a great like setup that was. Because because it was it belonged so organically to the previous episode storyline, which was trying to deal with Lisbon's trauma. So I I'm guessing that these episodes at this point were heavily preempted at the start of the season, right? You you're s you're sowing seeds.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, Chris Clemenson had just won an Emmy for some David Kelly show. I think it was for supporting actors. So we were like very happy to get him. He's a great actor. And then actually

Owain Yeoman: Hmm. Big get, yeah.

Ashley Gable: we thought he was good enough that we had a shot at actually faking out the audience to into thinking he was a new recurring character. So we actually wrote

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: a scene, Tom Tom St Georgie wrote a scene to put in episode two. So we we brought him back to shoot a an added scene to put in episode two

Owain Yeoman: Love that.

Ashley Gable: just to introduce him. and you know, so I th I thought he did a terrific job.

Owain Yeoman: He did, and he was literally the last guy you would expect. And and I think that y of course then when you went back and you pieced it together, little clues were lovely, like Lisbon going, This coffee tastes like crap. And you're like, Of course, well, because he was he was drugging her. you know, and I did, but it I didn't notice it until, you know, sixteen

Ashley Gable: Thank you for noticing that.

Owain Yeoman: years and change later, watching it now, knowing the end of it. so when you're coming into this how does that scaffold together? Give them a understanding of where that gets built?

Ashley Gable: Well, I had a vague notion that I wanted to just I wanted to fuck up Lisbon somehow. and so originally

Owain Yeoman: Right. Right.

Ashley Gable: originally I was gonna have her do a like actually shoot a guy and it was gonna be it was gonna look like a bad shoot and I can't remember I think Carl our consultant, he was great. just

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, very well.

Ashley Gable: sort of like going over stuff with him, and I quickly realized, okay, if we wanna make the audience even have the maybe think, okay, did Lisbon do this? Okay, the the the the dead person had to be really bad, so everybody wants him dead, so that's a pedophile. And then Lisbon has to come to sort of believe it herself. That was the only way the episode was really gonna work. and so that's sort of how I approached it. by that time we had Terry Kinney coming in for this Bosco arc. trying to figure out, okay, they know each other and what's their backstory and it just grew from that nugget of wanting to put Lisbon in a really tough situation and shake her up a little bit.

Owain Yeoman: it's a it's a big ruse to to take down our head cop, isn't it? This early into were there any sort was there any kickback on that? 'Cause I know sometimes network and or studio notes can be a little earnest.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, that's that's true. I don't remember pushback on it. I think the my recollection is the notes like on the outline were just, you know, the typical like make this clearer or make this clearer. I don't think there was any pushback

Owain Yeoman: Right.

Ashley Gable: on the notion of it. And of course, you know, now that now basically the network gets three pages a a pitch almost for the episode before they even ag agree to do it. So they were sort of they were sort of on

Owain Yeoman: wow.

Ashley Gable: board from the beginning, I would say. Like the the outline didn't change significantly from the idea that we pitched them. It just got more developed and and more scenes added.

Owain Yeoman: Can I ask little things like jumping to the end of the episode, the sign of the cross being the slip that gave away that he was the killer? How early on do you decide stuff like that? do you have moments like that going, Okay, great, it's gonna be him seeing the cross that's gonna be the giveaway? Or do you just find yourself right into that moment and then going, That's my killer moment right there?

Ashley Gable: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I chose the cross just because there was a little in the character there was a little bit florid or sort of I felt like I felt like he would seize on that as a dramatic thing. Like he would make a meal of it basically. just because that's his his character. And so I think that's where that came from. Because originally he had an even longer line about the cross, a symbol of a neglectful god but it was just it was too much, so Bruno and I were like, No, we gotta cut that. But

T: Hahaha

Ashley Gable: but I just I I felt like it was something it was just for for for that character, I just felt like that's something he would seize on, and that's how he blows it.

T: And was Lisbon's hypnotism, was that always going to be the way in for us? a very nice way to fill in some of the blanks with the characters. Van Pelt will do great if she doesn't sleep with Rigsby it was a great exposition moment that didn't look like exposition.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, I thought that was a nice one. Yeah. Yeah.

T: Was that just a fun byproduct of that? was that, Was that done deliberately or that was just something you go, I can exposition Van Pelt in this moment because she's under hypnosis.

Ashley Gable: Excuse me. It was more since Lisbon, is this, tight controlled person, what does she reveal that we wouldn't have expected or that's funny or poignant that she wouldn't have hot guy in the mailroom?

Owain Yeoman: Hot guy in the mailroom. Yeah.

T: The hot guy in the mail room, right. And Jane's great response of, know, really, he's easy. It

Ashley Gable: Is he?

Owain Yeoman: Is he that? Yeah.

T: kind of bothered him a little bit. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: wasn't really supposed to be exposition. It was really about Lisbon and and sort of a treat for the audience to see what Lisbon's thinking, like that the guy in the mail room is hot or something like that. So that's

T: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Gable: really where where and also to show that like she's good at her job because you know, Rigsby and Van Pelt have been very secretive, but she still knows what's going on. So she's not an idiot, yeah.

T: What's going on?

Owain Yeoman: One thing I was I was really, really interested in was, and it piggybacks off the off the hypnosis digging into the deeper is that there was a lot of trauma in all of our backstories, wasn't there? Like, you know Lisbon has an alcoholic

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: violent father and several sort of degenerate brothers. Cho has his Avon Park. Playboys. I had the biker gang, no good father. I I guess Van Pelt was sort of got off pretty easy with an overbearing football father. And then obviously Jane has his incredibly

Ashley Gable: And bad boyfriend.

Owain Yeoman: right, you know? So it's Is there a sort of feeling that like, ooh, we're making everyone very traumatized, you know? Was there ever any discussions about that? I think in in life, if people come together and they have that kind of traumatic through line, they tend to openly bond and talk about it. And yet there was never any sort of sense of communion in the show about that was

Ashley Gable: Mm.

Owain Yeoman: and and maybe just because of the formal police setting. But was that ever flagged or like guys, these these these cops are all pretty traumatized.

Ashley Gable: That's interesting. Enough. Yeah, but I mean the Lisbon Alcoholic Dad thing was actually introduced in episode three, aired as episode two, that I wrote first season. It was

T: Hmm.

Ashley Gable: it was just like a little thin thread, but it was but it was introduced

T: there, yeah.

Ashley Gable: then. it was already part of the canon. So but it also was helpful 'cause drunks have blackouts. So I felt like it was one of the reasons she was worried is 'cause she knew that blackouts can happen with alcohol or trauma or whatever. So I felt like it it felt like it fit, it had the right shape to it.

Owain Yeoman: It was also nice to see hypnosis be something that Lisbon asked for because, you know, we'd seen quite a theme of that's not going to be used in my police

Ashley Gable: Right.

Owain Yeoman: department, you know. I know that the shippers in the series were very excited to have Lisbon bring Jane home. Now this is projecting

Ashley Gable: yes.

Owain Yeoman: very early romantically. I know Bruno was always at pains to keep that relationship fr more brother sister and I think

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: towards the end it just became inevitable that people wanted it to become more romantic. But was there any sort of shipping intent that early on?

Ashley Gable: it was my intent as a writer. I did not share that with others because I knew it was early. but yeah, I was always trying to get people laid on the show. I wrote the episode I wrote the episode where in a couple of episodes where where you and Amanda are in bed when the phone rings and it's Lisbon telling you to you know, get in and

Owain Yeoman: We're always so grateful for your episodes, Ashley.

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: this

Ashley Gable: Now there have been a couple of shows where the only episode where the s characters have sex I wrote. So I mean a couple of series, you know,

Owain Yeoman: That's so funny. That's so funny.

Ashley Gable: that I've worked on.

T: just So the description of the boss in the scene prior was his boss is a pipsqueak. And then I walk in with Amanda and it's six foot three, Jake Busey. Was that done? Was that shot before or after you wrote that line? Or did we shoot those scenes out of order? Is that why that happened?

Ashley Gable: Yeah, that had to be shot out of order. I don't remember that, but yeah, you good catch.

T: Cause I walked in and I was like, all right, listen, pipsqueak. it's like.

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: So can we talk about that being the most network friendly sex shop that I've ever seen?

T: All right.

Owain Yeoman: Like, you know, the careful

Ashley Gable: my God.

Owain Yeoman: the careful placement of what we all knew were certain unmentionables was suddenly very PG. How is it I was amazed that you were able able to because the inference was still clear.

Ashley Gable: Yeah. I

T: Yeah. That was fantastic. Right, right.

Ashley Gable: I didn't love that set, I gotta tell ya. I had the same reaction. to me there wasn't enough stuff for one thing. It was just like half a dozen things. But you know, so I gave the note and they made it better,

Owain Yeoman: I think what loved about this show also was that we'd seen Lisbon pretty much untainted as a as a great cop. There'd never been any reputational question over her. bold choice to make, I think, to call that into question this early on. did you really want to sort of strike at the institution? Because I think up until then, the police had always been the right way of doing it. Do you know what I mean? And Jane was the charlatan. It's like here's the book, here's the unconventional. Now

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: we were sort of digging into, could a good cop be capable of murder? I've always wanted to ask you this. I love the fact that Rigsby was totally willing to hang her out to dry. Did you notice that? The scene where he's like, Well, you know, he's a good she's a good cop, and if she did it, she should also be ready to take the rap. And I remember at the time thinking, Wow, like but then it within a second I decide, all right, well, she probably didn't do it anyway, so it doesn't matter. But some uncomfortable

Ashley Gable: Yeah, I it

Owain Yeoman: questions being asked there.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, yeah. it's somebody had to take the other side. So it was you. But I thought that but I thought they were reasonable

Owain Yeoman: Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. It felt weird.

Ashley Gable: points. Like, okay if she's g you know, if she's got the if she's got the balls to do the crime then she can do the time.

T: What would you say, Ashley, is your favorite moment from this episode? like, yeah, that kind of encapsulates and that's kind of cool.

Ashley Gable: I thought that the scene I thought the hypnotism scene was really, really beautiful work from both of them. And that was actually that was that scene was cut by Jimmy Gadd. He was still an assistant at that point, but he was allowed to cut that scene and I thought he did a really nice job.

T: What was it specifically about that scene? how it all came together from performance to edit to music to everything, was there a, could you nail it down to an actual moment?

Ashley Gable: the moment where Lisbon asked Jane, You're not gonna tell anybody about this and that was just such a vulnerable moment for her, I just thought that was that was really beautiful.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah. Yeah, that was beautiful.

Ashley Gable: And she was she was terrific in that scene.

T: Yeah, love that.

Owain Yeoman: I I really also loved the delicate suggestion of the past between Bosco and Lisbon. I thought that that was a very lovely idea. This is the first time that we really do get to delve into the more personal side of Lisbon, a character who's been pretty impenetrable up to now. was there a past there? Are we right to sort of look into that and read that?

Ashley Gable: she has known that Bosco had a had a crush on her for a long time. there's a l there's a nice thing that the actors did It wasn't scripted, but I thought that was great. at that last scene where Terry Kinney comes over and he puts his hand on the box she's she's standing with her hand on the box. And then he comes over and puts his hand on the box and she just sort of quietly withdraws her hand. I just thought that was

Owain Yeoman: Hmm.

Ashley Gable: a great moment that the actors came up with. So

T: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: Like that.

T: The past few episodes

Owain Yeoman: That was very cool.

T: for me have been sort of the team has been

Owain Yeoman: Mm.

T: the the Cho Rigsby Van Pelt stuff and I really enjoyed it's always the banter because that to me is very interesting and it's the fun stuff especially when Rigsby yeah it's and it's just fun right it's just fun to do

Ashley Gable: When you guys are so good at it too. Yeah.

T: and it's that moment when Rigsby stands up to to Bosco and Van Pelt says

Owain Yeoman: I remember that. I remember that.

Ashley Gable: That was so funny. He knows the score.

T: good comeback and chose like, yeah, right,

Owain Yeoman: Yeah, I remember I remember that yeah. I remember that vividly.

T: But as written, as written, Ashley, I feel like we could have been talking about either one of their comebacks, because Bosco comes back with, yeah, it is, and then leaves, which is also a terrible comeback, right? So I was like,

Ashley Gable: I know, I know.

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

T: is she talking about Bosco or is she talking about, we're talking about Rigsby there, okay, right, right, right, gotcha, gotcha.

Owain Yeoman: It it was a real and I and I I really appreciated how the writers did this because Tim and I have often talked about in a procedure where obviously the focus is on a large titular character. You have to wait your moment in the sun as part of the ensemble. And you guys were always very generous as writers to give us those arcs and those moments. But what I really love bubbling from the end of season one through season two. Is the team dynamic? And I I

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: fe I felt like the first few episodes of season two

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: really concentrated on the Chigsby friendship and the obviously the the developing romance between Van Power and Rigsby, but even stuff

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: like seeing cops as people, like in the dumpster area where we're rock, paper, scissoring for who goes in the dumpster. You know, and I and I just thought that

Ashley Gable: I love that. You guys were so funny. You guys were so funny.

T: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: that was such a human moment of like, I'm not doing it, I just bought this suit. And and it was a b it was also quite a meta gag because people wouldn't know this, but just to let you in that as the show went on, our suits became exponentially designer and expensive and in a way that no cop could ever afford them. And I remember

Ashley Gable: I know. Right.

Owain Yeoman: Carl Sonnenberg saying, What's that suit you're wearing? And I like, it's actually a tailored suit from Di Stefano. And he's like, I don't know any cop who would wear that, you know? And

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

T: de-stepin it. You're right. That's right.

Owain Yeoman: like and and it's so funny because we were like wearing these impeccable digs. And so it it it hit me extra hard that line when he was like, Just just got this new suit because I had actually just got a new custom suit for season two. So really appreciated the opportunity to be able to dig

Ashley Gable: What's fantastic?

Owain Yeoman: into that and you know, and here we are, sixteen years and change later, still rocking the Chigsby. So yes, yes to that.

Ashley Gable: Yes, definitely. can I tell you my favorite mo can I t I thought of my favorite moment. Okay.

T: Yeah, there we go.

Owain Yeoman: Please. Yes, please.

Ashley Gable: So this is going a different way. In the last scene Robin eats the donut. Now, you never eat the donut, kids. you guys know this, but I'll explain it. Like when you when you shoot a scene

Owain Yeoman: No. Well, if your rigs be you do, but sure.

Ashley Gable: when you shoot a scene, you try like actors usually try not to eat anything because When you're shooting it, you're shooting it ten different times. It's gonna take you all day to shoot the scene. And you're

Owain Yeoman: Yeah. True.

Ashley Gable: gonna be eating hundreds of donuts, And so you never eat the donuts. But she took she took the choice, she made the strong choice of eating the donut, and I very much respected that.

Owain Yeoman: That.

T: Absolutely.

Owain Yeoman: I love that. Did she eat the donut or did she do the cut and spit? She ate it. Good for her. Good for her.

Ashley Gable: No, she did the hot donut. She had it in her mouth for the rest of the scene.

Owain Yeoman: Good for her, I love that. I made that same mistake in the pilot and fourteen lobsters later, I was like, ugh.

T: I just have a couple photos today, one for you and one for us. So let me get that going here. And you can comment

Owain Yeoman: That's what we got.

T: on this. Okay, here we go. Here it is.

Ashley Gable: that's great.

Owain Yeoman: wow.

Ashley Gable: Yeah, so that's a Christmas.

Owain Yeoman: Look at that lovely bunch there.

T: Can we do the roll call here? Who have we gotten in the front row and then the back row, Ashley? of a scan, so.

Ashley Gable: Let's see. Okay, we've got left to right, Daniel Saron, Rebecca. I can't see who that is in the back. then Erica, Thompson Georgie.

T: Mm-mm.

Ashley Gable: I can't see who that is. Cindy, script supervisor.

Owain Yeoman: You

Ashley Gable: me, Jordan Harper, Kenny, and A Baum, David Applebaum.

Owain Yeoman: What a collection of talent that is. My goodness. When

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: you think about some of the shows that you guys have originated, worked on, that is a mighty collection of puffer jacket wearing

T: talent. Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: talent. And with those rap gifts.

Ashley Gable: They were a great, great group of writers.

T: And then what was, was that puffy jacket a wrap gift or a Christmas gift? What was that? Do you remember?

Ashley Gable: That was Bruno's Christmas gift to everybody

Owain Yeoman: Think it was. I think it was.

T: Christmas.

Ashley Gable: third season? Yeah, it has to be third season 'cause Daniel's there. So it was third season or fourth season. At Christmas, yeah.

T: Nice. And then I got just one more.

Owain Yeoman: So fun. Love that.

T: And this kind of illustrates a funnier sort of side of things where, and Owen and I have spoken about this quite a bit. And I thought this was pretty hilarious because we're still in the thick of it, which is the mentalist cat

Owain Yeoman: Yeah.

T: photo where we

Ashley Gable: that's so great.

T: all appear in the shot as like a chorus. It's,

Ashley Gable: That's

Owain Yeoman: Wow.

Ashley Gable: great. Yeah, you're walking

Owain Yeoman: Wow.

Ashley Gable: down the alley.

T: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: Wow. Rigsby's season two hair, which has become quite a pop

T: Yeah, you can see it.

Ashley Gable: Glorious. Glorious.

Owain Yeoman: quite a popular social media topic. I I now have hundreds of thousands of TikToks going, Bring back season two Rigsby hair and I'm like, No, season two Rigsby hair shouldn't have happened in season two and it definitely won't be happening again but so funny.

Ashley Gable: I I rewatched

Owain Yeoman: So so funny.

Ashley Gable: I rewatched the episode recently. And when you're you're shot in profile when you confront Bosco and and have your, you know, like is that so? gorgeous hair, I must say. Like it's it's sort of like

T: there you go.

Owain Yeoman: Thank you.

Ashley Gable: forward a little bit, it looks very nice. I have to admire it.

Owain Yeoman: we had we had some hair on that show. between

Ashley Gable: yeah.

Owain Yeoman: the the girls always looked like they stepped out of a salon and I I think Simon was pretty much the poster

Ashley Gable: Right. Which they add.

Owain Yeoman: boy for great hair. And you know,

T: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: Tim and I rocking the Lego hair, just put it on in the morning, never moves, you know. Remove it.

T: Yeah. Mm hmm. Remove. Yeah. Interchangeable.

Ashley Gable: you know on set what you know on set what the prime directive was. When you're shooting Simon, never cut him his hair. always, never never come never come down below the hair.

T: Give him some headroom. Yeah. Give him some headroom for sure. So I got one

Owain Yeoman: That's so funny. That's so funny.

T: last photo and the unsung heroes of that class photo are our stand ins.

Ashley Gable: that's great. I love that.

Owain Yeoman: look at those guys. So we've got Connor,

T: The exact same shot with her.

Owain Yeoman: we've got Erin.

Ashley Gable: Uh-huh.

T: Roy?

Owain Yeoman: We've got Roy

T: Sean?

Owain Yeoman: Shorn. Yeah, Sean was was Jane stand in. Now

Ashley Gable: Mm-hmm.

Owain Yeoman: I'm blanking on the name of Van Pelt stand in there because I don't feel like that was our regular stand in for Van Pelt. Am I wrong?

Ashley Gable: I think you're right.

T: You're not wrong. Do you remember Ashley?

Owain Yeoman: I feel like that's

Ashley Gable: Don't

Owain Yeoman: a day player maybe who is just standing in for Van Pelp, but my goodness, those guys put in some time, didn't they? Like God love man.

T: Yeah, I agree. I think that's what it was. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: Boy, they did.

T: Yeah. God bless them.

Ashley Gable: Were you guys there? The it

Owain Yeoman: And for those

Ashley Gable: I can't remember which episode this was, but it was basically it was a Friday, Simon got sick like ha like at one o'clock on Friday. and so there was there was like one scene that we could shoot where he only came in at the end. So we could we could separate him and do it with somebody else. Or no, it was XD. It

Owain Yeoman: Is.

Ashley Gable: an it was an interrogation. And it was and it was basically we sh we could shoot the part on Sean's back to Lisbon. So we could

T: Mm. Right.

Ashley Gable: get part so we could it wouldn't be a destroyed day. It would like we could get something out of it. And Sean

Owain Yeoman: Cool. Yeah.

Ashley Gable: knew every word of that scene.

T: Yeah.

Ashley Gable: Every word of that as a stand in. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing.

T: Yeah. No, he would memorize every line every day. Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: I remember that.

Ashley Gable: Amazing.

Owain Yeoman: And a lot of a of people don't know that y many people look for many different ways into the industry and a lot of stand-ins are budding actors and Sean is a perfect example of the right preparation meeting the right opportunity because for years he had wanted to and he came in, didn't he? He he had a role

T: He came in. Yeah. He came in. Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: and he had a line. And I was so thrilled for him because that man, he earned it. Like he really earned

Ashley Gable: Yep. He did.

Owain Yeoman: it. So to see him on that day.

T: was fantastic, yeah.

Owain Yeoman: beaming, I'll never forget that. yeah, and and good for him to to take all of that on off camera. This

T: Yeah.

Owain Yeoman: has been a phenomenal hour and change with our mentalist mom.

T: Thank you, Ashley.

Owain Yeoman: Ashley Gable, thank you so, so much for your time. Thank you for all your wonderful nuggets. my goodness, this

Ashley Gable: thank you for inviting me. This is so fun.

T: Ha

Owain Yeoman: has been amazing. And I know that all of the big, big fans of the show are gonna just love hearing all of the wonderful

T: That's gonna be great.

Owain Yeoman: insight. join us next time where we will be bringing you another instalment, season two, episode four. Until then, Tim Kang and I are the TV police.