Quantum Will Create Trillion-Dollar Companies. One Must Be European | Alexander Glätzle, planqc

Alex: So the total pool, is around six hundred million That's massive. and this is the first 1000 qubit quantum compute made in europe of course you're completely unprepared. This is like jumping in a in a cold river and you just try to survive this will have a dimension like the internet or AI. owning that there will be a few global champions And those will be exactly the trillion dollar companies we see now in the in the AI I think it's of utmost importance that this time Europe makes it right. That one of these global champions comes from Europe That would be the the hardest thing we we did so far in life, but still I think we can do it.

Vit Horky: Europe keeps losing hardware races, chips, batteries and compute. Tonight, the one race where it might actually still be ahead quantum computing. My guest is a theoretical physicist who left Europe, decided that was a mistake, and came back to Munich, Germany, and is now racing the US and China to build a computer that doesn't exist yet anywhere in the world at commercial scale. Just a few weeks ago, his company was selected as the lead of a five-partner German consortium for one of the largest quantum funding competitions in Europe. Over 600 million euros. So this conversation is landing at a genuinely live moment, not a quiet one. Let's get into it. All right, so today on the United Founders Show we have Alexander Glätzle, the co-founder and CEO of planqc Alex, welcome to the Show.

Alex: Vit great to meet you, happy to be here.

Vit Horky: Thank you so much. And thank you also so much for being one of the first Founders Force members in our community. I I really value your your trust in in all this. And we're doing this the whole United Founders Show for the wider community of Founders Force and for many policymakers, founders, entrepreneurial community, and investors in Europe as well who believe in European tech sovereignty and building the next generation of European tech champions. Alex, you're a theoretical physicist by training. you've done PhD under Peter Zoller in Innsbruck, then Oxford, then Singapore. And at some point you came back to Munich, Germany, to found a company instead of staying in academia or staying abroad. So what did leaving Europe teach you that staying wouldn't have?

Alex: it that's a very good question. I think one really important visit for me was a very short research visit at the University of Stanford already during my PhD. And it was just remarkable the attitude and the motivation of the students there in the sense of entrepreneurship. Everybody wanted In the US everybody wants to found a company or has just found a company or has got bankrupt and They were all with their cool hoodies and and and t-shirts in in the bar in the evening and they had these conversations where for the first time I saw a completely different mindset towards entrepreneurship. And even you know, a typical story starts why I I found it XYZ, I failed. I found it another company, I failed again. This time I'm doing it really, really right. And Now imagine a situation where in in in Germany or in Europe you you fail two times in founding a company. You're either in jail or you need a psychological treatment, right? and that positive mindset that really influenced me a lot. And I came back to to Innsbruck, Munich, and I felt quite alone because I was the only one so excited about spinning something out, about founding a company. And honestly, 15 years ago, what was also really missing were the were the role models. And this I would say dramatically changed both in Innsbruck, but even more important in in Munich, with Unternehmer TUM, with venture capital funds, and with role models like Celonis like Isar Aerospace, who had the first European rocket now in space. They few years ago they started in the same makerspace than than we did. And having those role models, this is this is very important. But yeah, looking looking back I think this visit to Stanford was probably the the most important.

Vit Horky: If I'm not mistaken, you have actually so far failed at failing. this is still first company, right? Or were there any kind of like of failing forward stories that you can you can share?

Alex: Yeah. Well sometimes it felt like failing, when I when I left academia after so many years in in in research and saying goodbye, joining a management consultancy firm. For me personally some sometimes this felt like failing and made basically everything I did in the past suddenly makes no sense anymore. You start a completely different adventure. But now looking back, actually it all makes sense, right? Because with an academic background, with a deep knowledge in quantum physics, then joining a management consultancy firm for a few years, doing something completely different, learning how to how to manage big projects, how to make a customer happy, for example. These are all, you know, soft skills which now tremendously help in in in in running planqc. So looking back in the end, it all makes sense. But on that journey of course it was very a very bumpy road.

Vit Horky: Mm-hmm. Let me stop there since you have mentioned that it felt like failing a bit. was this feeling about you were failing other people that were around that probably, I don't know, believe that you're gonna continue in academia, or you were failing the close people, you know, around yourself, like your family and friends, or was it failing yourself? And your perception of what success looks like in in your industry.

Alex: Well it's a mixture. I never had a very concrete career plan, but becoming a faculty member, becoming an academic permanently, this was an option. And also if you work with people like Peter Zoller or or others in in that league, for them this is a heritage. I mean they they are and they should. They are very proud about their PhD students, their postdoc which ended up at at excellent universities and and becoming professors. So that's that would have been also a an option for a for a track. I personally looking back probably would have been the the wrong person. But at that point of course these are these are points where you think you failed probably people around you think you failed. but in the end this is not true. It's always there are So many places around the world where you can do something useful, where you can really change the world and you have to find this right place and that's the challenge.

Vit Horky: Have you had a chance to speak with your academic colleagues and with your professors now, years after, and talking about these moments of hesitations at the very beginning?

Alex: No we are still in contact, we meet regularly with with all the with many academics I worked and I think first of all they have big respect what we are building here. Second they are big supporters. So whenever we need a reference call or a neutral person to to help us in in in that field, they are their big supporters. So there's a still a very close connection to all of them and That's the nice thing about this quantum community. It's pretty small, each other, you help each other, you stay connected and the goal is to make the cake larger and not to to to steal the cherries on top.

Vit Horky: How did it by the way happen that Innsbruck and Munich became one of the most prestigious ecosystems for building quantum computing?

Alex: Well d this already happened long before my time, so I can only tell you what I heard. in the end it's about people. In Innsbruck they already in the nineties they had they were really lucky that people like Peter Zoller, Rainer Blatt and Anton Zeilinger, Nobel Prize winner, they returned from international universities back to Innsbruck in their probably early thirties and I think that was a lucky coincidence, in particular that people like Peter Zoller and Rainer Blatt they worked together extremely well. This was a very, very fruitful time for Innsbruck. And in the end, it's exactly those people. So two, three people are enough to build a critical mass of people around them. In the end there was then the political decision that the Academy of Sciences in Innsbruck they built a institute, a institute of quantum optics and quantum information, which I think in their best times had a few hundred people. And this was where I academically grew up, where I did my PhD. And this is just an a remarkable institute where for basically it feels like for every problem you have as a as a student, as a PhD student, you find somebody who is an expert on that and you can just approach him, knock on his door, talk, and I think this is what this is this critical mass which then leads to this Cambrian explosion. And I think that's what in particular in Innsbruck they they did very, very well. And Munich is is slightly different, but definitely on the on on on the same league. I think financially even ahead with institutes like the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics, with for two two active Nobel Prize winners in in in one institute. Again they're a critical mass of excellent people. And Munich Innsbruck is it's it's only two hours away by by car drive. So already during my PhD we were in joint EU projects where I was a frequent visitor in in the group of Immanuel Bloch and and and and the guys in particular Johannes Zeiher and and Sebastian Blatt, my my two co-founders. they were at that time in Munich and were frequent visitors in Innsbruck. So there is a very close connection between these two institutes since many, many years.

Vit Horky: Just to build on it, as you were mentioned, planqc came out of the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics, one of the most credentialed possible starting points, right? How did it help you in fundraising and hiring at the very, very beginning, when you knew that you're setting up a company, you're spinning out your company, and you need to do much more than academic research?

Alex: Well this this was of an enormous help and this was such a such a lighthouse project that there is finally a quantum computing startup emerging in Munich as a spin out of the Max Planck Institute. So you mentioned hiring. I think the first thirty or even forty employees, they found us. We we didn't spend a single euro in in recruiting initiatives. This was when this was in the news, when this was spread in the community that there is finally a startup. We had so many applicants and really, really good applicants who basically had the same feeling like I had. We want to return home. You know, ten years ago there was no industry. You you did a PhD in in quantum optics, you're one of the top guys worldwide. And either you stay in academia Or you do something completely different. And these guys they ended up at Siemens, at Rolls Royce, at Airbus, at you name it. And for 10 years they learned what does it mean to work in a in a big company, to do project management, to do serious R &D product development. And then they had the feeling hey, we can we can return what what what we stopped doing after the PhD with all this enormous experience which not even I or or or my co-founders had from from ten years in industry. And I think this was really very, very important in in the beginning. And the second point was the IP transfer agreement. So We were we have had really positive experience in negotiating that and many people warned us and and were very critical. But in the end they understood that if planqc wants to be successful on the f on the on the on the fundraising market, then we have to give them an IP contract which future investors will value. And this understanding This is very rare and this was very, very good, and and and the contract we negotiated and signed now even serves as a blueprint in the in the in the Munich ecosystem. And that also dramatically helped in attracting the first investors because they look they look at the team and then they look at the the IP situation and is there really a a support from these institutes or is it just is it just fake?

Vit Horky: Since you're leading highly scientific company, was there really a choice between spinning out from academia and starting a real company pretty much from scratch when it comes to intellectual property? Was there a choice or not?

Alex: Well if you there is always a choice, but if you look at us and our competitors, it's always the same situation. It's a start up spinning out of a leading academic institute, getting the IP and also continuing collaboration. So creating this win win situation between planqc as a startup and the academic institutes at the at the Munich Universities and at the Max Planck Institute, this is what makes it so fruitful. And this is also something you have to you have to build up and strengthen every day. And that's why I think for us this is This is also risk mitigating, of course. we started with five million, a five million seed round. If you want to build a quantum computer, you probably cannot even equip the lab with five million. So this is this is just peanuts. But having a Max Planck Institute and a Ludwig Maximilians University and a TU Munich in the background, where you can share infrastructure, where you have joint projects, where you can write joint research applications. This is a this is a a speed up factor and a deer factor which many people underestimate. And for us this was an enormous kickstart. Now of course we we have to and we I think we are good at that to emancipating from the institute, building our own research teams, our own product development teams, having our own grants. Now we are 130 people, so we are we are we are on the same level also with with the number of people, with the number of founding. And there is also something we can give back now. The the the software we write, the the electronic components. In the end we increase the technology l readiness level of some modules, give them back for testing, they can be integrated in the in the research labs. And the end also speeds up their research because they don't want to do the the the boring engineering. That's something a company can do much better, but they have then the the the exciting scientific ideas where they can build on top.

Vit Horky: When you were starting at the very beginning with your co-founders, how prepared did you feel to become a founder and CEO of a of a company? And was there, by the way, any discussion between you and your co-founders? Who's gonna be the CEO, who's gonna be the CTO? You know, how do you divide the roles between yourself and responsibilities?

Alex: No, I think these these roles were quite defined from the very beginning. I was the only one who ever worked outside academia in a management consulting firm at least. Sebastian, I think he's the best CTO we can imagine with a very, very deep knowledge really on all layers. And Johannes, he still had an at that time an academic career in mind. He had very good chances and he now actually became also professor here in Munich. So for him this was always only a a part-time engagement. But for us strategically very important to have somebody on the academic side who can translate and can understand both both sides. So And and second part of your question, of course you're completely unprepared. This is like jumping in a in a cold river and you just try to survive and and and the learning curve is just enormously steep. And what I'm what I'm also really proud, I mean, basically as a CEO or as a founder of a company which starts with five people and four of them are in the lab, you basically do everything. From talking to tax advisors, to lawyers, setting up the accounting processes, talking to big accounting companies. And in the end, the the what I really enjoyed is then after a few months, a few years, hang this handing this over to real experts, hiring your first head of finance, hiring your first head of business development and so on. And it's in good hands. They do that much better than than you did. You learn enormously by just looking over their shoulders how they professionalize this now. But still, and I think this is I really enjoy that, they cannot fool you. You did all that alone in the very beginning. And I know how to deal with these systems, how to talk to tax advisors. I know that's just enormous learning and That's what I'm really, really glad and but of course nothing in the world probably can prepare you. No boot camp, no no no management course. it's learning by doing and and this this this never stops.

Vit Horky: Looking back at the very beginning, how much kind of emotion or perhaps ego was there at the very beginning of you know, saying to yourself, you know, I wanna be the first one who will build a you know, quantum computing, you know, quantum computing hardware at scale, at commercial scale. I wanna be the first one. I wanna Show the others that this can be done.

Alex: Well, I think ego on our side, in particular at planqc, is very low. We have enormous respect, what it means to building that machine. And I think this is in our DNA. Now, of course, there there is the ambition and there is the strong belief that we can be the first to build that machine and and to be honest. when I was when I was floating around in the in the in the in the consulting world I always looked at that space, and I saw all these quantum computing startups popping up in the US and in in Asia. I always thought why is there no startup in Munich? the Max Planck Institute, that's probably you mentioned it in introduction, that's one of the world leading institutes in exactly that technology. What's going on there? And I talked about that with Sebastian and Johannes already years before we founded planqc and it was Just super excited when then suddenly they they they called me and said let's have a let's have a dinner in in the city. Would you still be motivated? would you support this? It's now the right timing and I think the right place. And yeah, what what what they told me and what I knew about the ecosystem there totally convinced me. But it was never an ego topic, it was always shit, guys. If we want to do that, that will be That would be the the hardest thing we we did so far in life, but still I think we can do it. This is if if we cannot do it in Munich with the support of the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics, then probably nobody else can do it. But this will be this will be a a a bumpy ride and this will consume all our energy, all our time in the next few years. But guys, let's do it. This is the best ecosystem and this is the best theme. Let's try it. And That's the only ego part I would say we we all have in common.

Vit Horky: Very good. Alex, if I'm not mistaken, with planqc you have achieved two huge milestones just recently during September. the first one being delivering over eight hundred kilo quantum hardware to the Leibniz supercomputing facility. And then also you were selected to become a lead of a national consortium that is huge when I when I was trying to find out what might be the scale of of the delivery for the consortium. I saw numbers like over 600 million euro you know capital being being placed to to this consortium. Which of these two is the bigger deal for you? And if you can explain how did you get to these opportunities?

Alex: Mm-hmm. I think both are of enormous importance and I'm happy that you that you that you mentioned both. So the first one, this is a joint project with the Leibniz Supercomputing Center and also the the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics, where we want to build, and this is extremely ambitious, Europe's first 1000 qubit quantum computer. And we are on track of that. This is project in two phases. The first one is to demonstrate a lab demonstrator with 1000 qubits. That what we actually did beginning of that year. So this was reviewed and and accepted by the by the German government and this brings us now in phase two where the goal is now to stabilize that that machine to really put it in a standard form factor and the the the pictures you probably saw of these eight kilogram machines this is the first demonstrator rack based which we ship to the Leibniz Supercomputing Centre. Now basically to start ping pong, start the test campaign where we learn what do we have to improve that in basically one year from now it works stable and with low maintenance in an in a high performance computing center. And I think the team did enormous jobs so the the timescale on which they built that this is not comparable with with anything I saw in the in the past in academic labs and so on so I think we can be super proud of of those guys here they they they really execute and this is the first 1000 qubit quantum compute made in europe and this is also something we as a community should be very very proud of and The second point you mentioned, this is basically the the follow up project from these big academic projects in the in the in the Munich Quantum Valley, where this time startup has to be in the lead as an integration partner, where we teamed up again with the with the usual subspects and also Toptica, laser company for example. strategically on along the supply chain. And what we always pitched and tried to convince the German government is that we need a much bigger focus. So if we want to be competitive here in Germany or in Europe, we have to have the ambition to create global champions. And this does not work if you just spray and spray five million euros here, five million euros there. Every little city, every little valley in Germany has its own quantum computing valley, as the name says. This will not lead to global champions. You have to focus and you have to dramatically increase the amount of money in specific consortiums if you want to be globally competitive. And that's what they did. And I'm I'm super excited because They decided now, and I think this makes a lot of sense, that currently the most promising platforms are superconducting qubits, ion trap quantum computers, and neutral atoms. Neutral atoms, that's what what we are doing. And they fund now two consortia in in every platform with a significant amount of money. So the total pool, what what I what I read in the news is around six hundred million distributed on six consortia. It's roughly one hundred million per consortia. That's massive. That's international has a visibility and and and brings us probably in the pole position. And I'm very happy that this this worked out. Now this is also milestone based. So probably on is a five years project, probably on the way consortius will be kicked out. If we as planqc do not achieve the the milestones which are expected, then I think this makes a lot of sense because then you create this funnel and in the end you have then probably three or two companies which in the end survive and hopefully become come global champions and are capable of accumulating the capital they need along this journey. And yeah, I'm very happy that that this works out. This is definitely definitely a milestone. Now This is while this is super exciting, it's just one pillar. The second pillar which has to follow now is anchor customers. So in the end, we also want to produce what I mentioned before with the Leibniz Supercomputing Center, quantum computers as a product, customized, industrialized, which run in data centers, which run in in HPC centers. And the best thing for a startup which can happen is If government agencies act as first customers and buy them. So with this grant you mentioned now, we actually build a machine, a lab demonstrator, with world-leading KPIs, but this is a lab demonstrator. And the second pillar now which is missing and hopefully coming soon, is that we take these machines then make them smaller, more reliable, put them in a standard form factor, make a product out of it and install them at the at the customer side. The most important that also industry customer can access that because in the end we want to also create the win-win situation that the that the German European industry has an advantage by using these systems for their R and D and get first first hand experience on those machines.

Vit Horky: Your as you were saying, like your single biggest and the most important partner today is the German government. how's it working out for you so far? How is the cooperation really on a day to day basis? Because like I can tell you from talking with you know dozens of startups working with governments all over

Alex: Ha.

Vit Horky: the world every month, it's typically a nightmare. and many of them are trying to avoid you know working next time with governments. Yet you know, the nature of your industry, I suppose, is that you know governments are actually the most logical first customer and partner on your journey. So how's it working out for you so far? And kind of try to Show the other founders what are some of the tips perhaps. How to do it successfully.

Alex: Yeah. So overall, in our case, this works really, really well. The German government, since decades, is an enormous supporter of quantum technology, both on the academic side. So I mean it's no surprise that Germany has the leading academic institutes when it comes to quantum research. This is because there's a continuous funding process, and quantum has and also will have top priority. the project we mentioned now are now the the the tip of the iceberg. This is exactly what we need in the in the next few years. That's what we pitched for. The high tech agenda of the of the German government is very ambitious. It defines six key technologies. One of them is quantum and this is I think exactly the the right path. Now on a high level if you want to criticize something then still these projects are way too bureaucratic. So it you need a lot of men and women power to to write these to write these applications to collect all the quotes and and so on but in the end I never accept that as an as an as an excuse. Then you hire two people, you do the job and and you win the grant. So we can work around that. It's not ideal but we can work around that. The second point and this is probably more significant, I mean lucky that this worked out now But the timescales they sometimes really mismatch. So we were talking about that call now since more than a year. And in my opinion, it's delayed for more than a year. And a year for a startup, that's probably half of the the the half of the the the the the budget period or the the the funding period. So this can kill a startup. If you wait for more than a year for a significant grant and it you don't know if it's coming or not, probably the startup is dead. And this is not understood so a year delay, this is still on track on on on the timescale in Berlin or on in in Brussels. And raising that awareness I think also in the future that's that's very important. But overall I'm super happy. I think they they listen. They want to have quantum computing industry in Germany world leading. They understand that we have to be bold and focus and also taking risk by saying these are the right three platforms. This is the way we pursue. This takes also political risk and I'm I'm very happy that they they go that path.

Vit Horky: You've mentioned the the bu bureaucratic button and funnily enough, just today before we started recording, I I read a post of a scientific scientific founder on LinkedIn who were who was sharing how did he build an essentially an app by using Claude Code that was running a full process of asking for a grant and even like leading a consortium and collaborating with other, you know, consortium members. How much of that bureauc bureaucratic burden can be outsourced to AI these days?

Alex: Well, I think a lot. this this dramatically changed I would even say in the last six months. So none of us is using Excel anymore. You use AI to use Excel for you. And con in particular in writing grants, in structuring that, in speeding up the workflows there, this this this is a game changer. And you see that also on the on the amount of grants which probably fly in in these ministries now with a very very high or discuss this is under discussion but with a with a higher quality in terms of qualities, typos, structure and and things like that. Probably not the the exact content then. But yes, this is this is a big topic and We have incorporated that from the very first day. Everybody has a Claude, everybody has a ChatGPT license in the company and should use that. And we also trying to define the processes around that because I think this is this is what makes it the game changer. Adding this to the processes.

Vit Horky: By the way, this might I guess sound as a technical question to to many, but what's the significance of your company leading the consortium? Like is there any significance when it comes to managing a risk of whether this will be successful or not? Is there any upside when it comes to the capital that you're gonna get from from doing this? Or why did you decide it to to go the extra mile and go the extra effort and lead the consortium. I can imagine that this might cost you multiple hundreds of hours of extra work.

Alex: yes, but it also brings puts you in the driver's seat. So we can make sure that all partners align on the same milestones, that in the end there is a a a demonstrator coming out. And there was no choice actually. So the the call is structured that a startup or an industry partner has to be in the lead and not an academic institute. And I think the the reason behind that is that they want a system integrator where all these side branches, all these side projects inside such a five years project come together and end up in the in the very same machine, in the very same prototype. And this can only be the the company which then houses the final machine. So from that side this this makes a lot of sense.

Vit Horky: I gotta say, when I learnt about this project, and the the sheer scale of the project, they were talking, you know, nearly a billion dollars, right? Of the total funding if everything goes well. Th this is serious money and I'm so happy that y y Europe and Germany in particular can actually, you know, run such a such a large project. March twenty twenty seven is if I'm not mistaken, is your next hard deadline for f for this project to to succeed. what happens if Plank will miss it? If you will not deliver. Alright, let me tell you something. my wife and my my friends keep bugging me about why am I spending so much time producing the United Founders Show during weekends and during nights, and having so few followers and subscribers. I don't have a good answer for them, to be honest, other than I really love it. If you wanna help me though, please do subscribe. It's gonna help me. To actually Show them that I'm doing something worthwhile. So there is a button. I'm sure that you know it underneath the video that you're now watching or underneath in in the podcast console or platform or app that you're using right now for listening to this podcast, please do hit the subscribe button. Thank you so much. March twenty twenty seven is if I'm not mistaken, is your next hard deadline for f for this project to to succeed. what happens if Plank will miss it? If you will not deliver.

Alex: that's that's a fun fact. So we are the only we are one of the few consortia which already achieved this milestone ahead of time. So when this

Vit Horky: Really?

Alex: yeah yeah, when when when this call was structured, they said there should be and this makes a lot of sense, there should be entrance criteria. So you have to demonstrate scientifically proven that you have twenty four qubits, ninety nine point five, gate fidelity and so on. This was decided already a year ago. And my opinion this should already have been the entrance criteria. Now that they shifted that to March is probably because not all consortia managed it. I don't know. don't want to talk about other consortia. But we are safe. We already did that. we demonstrated that. So for us, this first milestone should be should be checked. No official statement on that, but we have the results in the consortia.

Vit Horky: Th that's great. I gotta tell you, when I started first learning s somewhat seriously about quantum a few years ago before my first investments in in the space, I felt like the dumbest person in in the room. Like, you know, learning about superposition and and etc. It was for me at at one point mind blowing. On the other hand, I realized how incapable I am of really understanding what what this is. Then I read a quote, I believe, from one of the one of the Caltech's quantum researchers, Richard Feynman, who said, I believe I believe nobody understands quantum, really. Which was for me, you know, great to great to hear that somebody who is so much involved in the industry and who really understands, I guess, the the details of it is able to kind of recognize it's really hard to understand the whole thing. help me and help the others understand what quantum really is. What's the difference between neutral atom and superconducting? You know, don't go into scientific details, but try to kind of help me understand so I don't feel so dumb anymore.

Alex: Yeah. I love that that quote and it's it's also on on many of my keynote slides in the very beginning because it just changes the level people see that and I honestly believe our human brains by evolution are not made to understand quantum physics. So now there is a big difference. What do you mean with understand? Understanding something. I think that two objects can be At two different places at the same time, and I or I am sitting in in your podcast and in another podcast at the same time. That's crazy. This in a in a macroscopic world we are living, this makes absolutely no sense. But these quantum objects they behave like that. They can be at two different places in two different states at the same time. Now, if you mean with understanding that with our With our brain, with our evolution, we can talk about that. We probably don't even have the right language to describe that because this is a completely different world. But what we have, and I think this is important to understand, we have a mathematical framework which is consistent, which is beautiful and makes the right predictions. So quantum physics, even so crazy as it is. It was never proven false. Still, there will be a day when we find that it not ex in some cases it's not explaining. This is this is science. This is then probably the most exciting moment because then we know we have to come up with a new theory of this microscopic world or we have to to change it. But so far, and people like Einstein and many more, they always criticize quantum computing. The world cannot be like that. God is not playing dice, famous quote from Einstein. And he came up with experiments after experiments to prove quantum mechanics is wrong. And all these experiments actually have proven the opposite. The world is exactly so crazy as quantum predicts, and remarkably, we have the right mathematical tools to predict this world. And quantum computers. Just means we build computers based on the laws of quantum physics. And this has huge advantages because nature isn't classical. So if you want to understand how molecules bind, how to design new materials, how to design new drugs, personalized medicine, for example, these are problems which are quantum mechanically, intrinsically. Solving them on a classical computer is a very stupid idea because the resources will probably increase exponentially. So for these problems, you will need a quantum computer. And in if I should explain you how quantum computers work in one example, I I I always choose the example of a labyrinth. So finding the the closest way through a labyrinth. What we would do as as human beings at classical objects, we would try every paths, fail, go back, try the next path, go back, and so. A quantum computer would be like a fluid, like water. You you put water in the labyrinth, which distributes in the entire labyrinth at the same time. And when the first drop of water finally finds the exit, all these lake collapses in one river. showing you exactly the shortest path through the to the labyrinth. And this works because these quantum objects have these crazy properties that they can distribute in space, that they can be at different places at the same time, that actually if you don't measure them, they behave even as waves. And then in the end, if you f if it finds the exit, these waves collapses into the into the the right path. So that's That's how quantum computers work in general. And it just shows you this enormous parallelisation because in the end, this is parallelisation. You try all these different passes at the same time, and not like a classical computer, one after each other. And this this is what speeds up class quantum computing compared to to classical computing. Now you also asked about what's the difference in modalities and Currently there are several modalities how we believe and our competitors believe one can build quantum computers. If you would go 100 years back and you would ask the giants of physics like Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Einstein what's a qubit, and this is at the heart of this question, they could probably tell you it's the it's the spin of an electron. So an electron can turn clockwise or counterclockwise, and you can define that as zero and one. And remarkably, these are quantum objects, so it can be in state zero and one at the same time. This would be like rotating clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. Whatever that means. But these objects behave like that. And then it turned out that this is a really, really hard job. So controlling. Manipulating single atoms with single photons, single light particles in a controlled way, this took half a century. Nobel prizes our Nobel Prizes. Learning how to cool atoms, how to manipulate them, how to excite them to do Rydberg states, how to make them interact. And this is the way we build quantum computers. We store quantum information in the outermost electron. of a of a single atom. Sounds crazy, but these are real qubits. They have the best coherence properties. These are real qubits. You don't have to manufacture them. Nature created them for you. And that's why this technology we are using neutral atoms, which we are pioneering here from Munich, is the fastest scaling modality in the in the quantum space. Now I think 20 30 years ago Companies like IBM and now recently also Google, they did something very clever and I have full respect on that. They said it we it's it's super tough to control single atoms. Probably this will never work. Who can control single atoms, store information a single atom? Let's try to build artificial qubits. And also, of course, not not IBM and Google's achievement. There's a series of academic research, Nobel Prizes where actually last year's Nobel Prize went into that direction where people build artificial qubits. So just using semiconductor material, different layers, where really currents, electricity can flow clockwise or counterclockwise. And if you cool these objects to almost absolute zero, so putting in in liquid helium, this is also very energy consuming, but you have to cool them down and after specific temperature, these objects start to approximately behave qubits, which means these currents they can flow clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. You cannot create the superposition of these currents. And I mean this was this was a remarkable story and this triggered all these in progress in superconducting qubits. and in the in in the last years this was probably the The most stable and the one of the best modalities pursued by companies, as I said, like IBM, Google, and in in Europe in particular by by IQM. But they have limitations. So, first of all, these are not real qubits, so you have to manufacture them. They will always be imperfections. You have to cool them. You have to all make them equal. And in the end, it turned out that they have significant problems in scaling to a large number of qubits. Because bluntly speaking, you have to cool them in one of these cooling devices and one of these cryostats, you cannot fit millions of these superconducting qubits. So that's a definite limitation. Also, the quality of the qubits will in the long run be not perfect because it's an artificial qubit. And Still, I think it's a very exciting technology. It's definitely worth pursuing that. I would one year ago I would have said the race is still open. Now I would say I think the industry is converging towards neutral atoms. So even Google, after spending billions of dollars in superconducting qubits, they decided now a few months ago to go all in in neutral atoms and also build a neutral atom quantum computer. And Yeah, I think this is a big validation of our of our approach. But of course I I don't have to tell you that having Google as a direct competitor about talent, about the supply chain, will be of course challenging. But we have four years kick start. We have a Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics which is doing that for thirty years. We're owning the fundamental IP, we know the the the tricks and the the the know how. So I think Germany and in particular our consortium is here in a in a very, very good position.

Vit Horky: By the way, thanks for make making me feel like five to ten percent less dumb now after explaining all this and and you have a gift of really explaining quantum in a way that I believe it can be, you know, well understood to whoever hears about quantum computing for the first time. What you described, when it comes to real use cases, are we talking really about like future dreams or are there any components of the quantum physics that are already in use today around us in the real world.

Alex: Well if you talk about if quantum physics is around us, I would say definitely yes. if you go in a hospital, hopefully not, and have an MRT scan. An MRT scan works because the spin in an electron is quantized. If you use your GPS and your phone to navigate in a city and the satellites up there, there are atomic clocks. So GPS works because you measure the time between the satellite and your device very, very accurately. And the the the only way to do that is with atomic clocks. That's a very similar technology, like we are using our atoms to build to build quantum computers. And even laser light, the theory of laser light. can only explained using using quantum theory. So every time you're standing at the at the supermarket and the cashier makes click and and and scans the the the the barcode, this is actually quantum physics. So it's all around us. Nature nature is determined by quantum and we already turned this in in in in in great technology in great applications. And quantum computing is the next big thing, the next holy grail, I would say it's definitely a few orders Harder to build, but it builds on the same principles which already have proven that they that they work.

Vit Horky: Hmm. You've mentioned Google and Alphabet as one of your competitors. And obviously the this is huge, right? It's this is a the important game to play. But you're also having Munich neighbor, IQM, as a company that it's you know, very closely can be compared, let's say, with what you do at planqc. And IQM went public this summer at close to two billion dollar. valuation at Nasdaq and just recently announced hundred million order backlog, new deployment in Brazil. To what extent there is a fierce competition already happening in Germany and internationally?

Alex: Yeah. So we know the guys from IQM very well. We know the founders. we are in close contact. We have full respect what they did. I think what they achieved in the past few years is enormous. Doing that out of Europe, this is incredible. So in the sense for for a long time they even were a role model which were which we were chasing. And the good thing is I think there is definitely space for two or more modalities. So if you look at the big data centers at the HPC centers, They usually buy quantum computers of different modalities because in the next couple of years, five to ten years, they want to compare them. That's I would say that's a fruitful competition. And the the spirit was always in particular with IQM, that we together should make the cake larger and and not steal the the cherries. So also on the political side, we we're teaming up to create this awareness, to speak with one voice. And I think this this works very well. luckily on the talent side, this is quite separated. So an expert on cryogenic superconducting qubit technology, this is not a person we can just hire and put in our lap. We need a different skill set. This is usually a different academic track, and so from that sense, there is also no cannibalization on the on the on the talent market. They are pursuing slightly different strategy. they're trying to sell even smaller system. I think they were quite successful selling five qubit machines. Honestly speaking, I never understood that. I w said there is no market for five qubit machines because the computational power is so small I can whatever I can do in a five qubit quantum computer I can do on my on my mobile phone. But still they are selling them. That's that's a valid point. I think that's also what works for that technology much better because building a stable five qubit system with superconducting qubits, that's something they can do today. But I think we are better, we have the better chances to build a machine with a million qubits and really leading in the actual KPIs and the performance KPIs of a quantum computer. Because neutral atoms scale faster, they are real qubits. we can play a lot of tricks also on the error correction side, parallelizing the things and then tackle, you know, the the big hard use cases first. But probably on the technology readiness level, neutral atoms are definitely a more fragile system. I mean you have lasers, you have optics, you have to care a lot about temperature stability, about vibrational stability and so on. So I think it makes a lot of sense why they've chosen this strategy. We have another strategy. We want to be the first company globally to build a quantum computer capable of doing a million of gate operations with several hundred of logical qubits. And that's in my opinion, that's the inflection point where commercial value then hits in for the for the very first time.

Vit Horky: How big is the cake? And I I don't mean the cake that we're having today. Obviously, that cake is not that big, but the cake and the market size in five to ten, maybe fifteen years. And I I gotta tell you, there are limited partners at our fund, United Founders were questioning our investment thesis of investing into quantum because they're saying quantum will never be a huge market. Even the winners of the market will stay small compared to large language models, compared to world model companies, robotics companies, etc. W what is your view on the future market size?

Alex: Yeah. So quantum computers will not replace classical computers in general. Their places in data centers, in HPC centers, as an accelerator in the next few years. So next to big CPUs, GPU clusters, the leading data centers, they will procure quantum computers just as another modality. We see that also in in in the government strategies around the world, data center strategies, AI, gigafactories. There's always a chapter about quantum computers next to these classic computers. So I think what we see currently in terms of revenue, in terms of market size, as you said, this is just noise. If you make 10 million revenue or or 100 million revenue, this is noise on the scale where we will be in five to ten years, where basically every data center around the world will have quantum computers deployed. Next to their classical computers. And if you believe in McKinsey and and these reports, this will be a trillion dollar economic value which will be created by 2035. So this is really a fundamental infrastructure layer on the compute side. And an infrastructure layer means this will have a dimension like the internet or AI. And owning that there will be a few global champions in ten years who will own that infrastructure layer. And those will be exactly the the trillion dollar companies we see now in the in the AI internet in internet regime. And I think it's of utmost importance that this time Europe makes it right. That one of these global champions comes from Europe and That we build on this huge heritage, leading the academic research, leading on talent, leading on IP, but then also commercialize it in Europe. And in particular for neutral atoms, I think we are in the pole position because we have the talent, we have the leading research institute, we also have the supply chain. So to in order to build neutral atom quantum computers, we need the laser and photonic industry, you need classical optics, you need vacuum technologies, we find the world-leading suppliers. in Europe actually even in in Munich and if you go to competitors labs from the US to Japan, they are full of the laser systems produced in Europe, in Germany. And I think this is a a big leverage we have to protect and we have to leverage.

Vit Horky: You've said in the past, I believe, that the impact of a working code-breaking quantum computer is like an atomic bomb. Whoever gets there first gains a real strategic asymmetry over everyone else. So, you know, hearing what you're talking about, what do you believe are the real chances that Europe will be the first one there in this race?

Alex: If we do it right, if we create a critical mass of good people, companies and the supply chain, put significant money into these consortias, then we can be first also building a so called Shor quantum computer. I think there is there is a lot going on in in in China. There is an executive order in the US which makes it very clear that the US wants to lead this quantum race, that they want to have this industrial dominance now also in that field. But I think Europe has a significant chance, in particular in neutral atoms. And this needs the support from politics, but this also needs the support from industry. So it's not enough to wait till these products are. Perfect and then try to use it. These companies who will be disrupted by quantum computers, they have to invest now. And they also have to have the guts to buy a machine which is not perfect yet, which will not solve their hardest problem today. But being on that journey early enough for something which grows exponentially. is of utmost importance. So if we make that right, if we get politics, industry, supply chain, academic institutes into one boat, then I think Europe has even in the pole position to to to win that race.

Vit Horky: What generally scares you about this about this race.

Alex: I think the the biggest risk I see so far is our supply chain. So there are big competitors in the US, which currently are valued fifteen to twenty billion on the on the stock exchange. They can raise a billion dollar just by a press release. And then they do a share deal and buy one of our supply chain. companies here in Europe and that would be damn problem for Europe, for the entire ecosystem. This is something we have to navigate and I think These companies they do an excellent job talking to analysts, talking to people at Wall Street. And what frightens me a little bit is that we always believe technology will win that race. But in the end it's probably the best CFO who will win the race and not the best CTO. And this is something which sometimes causes me sleepless nights.

Vit Horky: Last minutes of our of our Show. rapid fire questions. So I'm gonna ask you for super quick answers. The top of the minds answers will be the best, okay? a book you would hand to every deep tech founder.

Alex: Thomas Kuhn, the structure of scientific revolutions.

Vit Horky: Podcast or Youtube channel you actually watch.

Alex: history channels. I'd love to learn more about our past, about history. There's a lot of things we can learn.

Vit Horky: A founder anywhere in the world who genuinely inspires you.

Alex: there are too many. Don't want to mention a single name.

Vit Horky: Most overhyped claim in quantum computing right now.

Alex: that there will be that there is already quantum advantage, industry quantum advantage today. Still still one or two years away.

Vit Horky: Should Europe subsidise hardware races the way the US and China do, or does it just create dependency?

Alex: If they do it right, for example, via the European scale up fall, definitely yes.

Vit Horky: Should European quantum IP be allowed to license to US firms?

Alex: If it's just a license, yes.

Vit Horky: And one word for where the quantum race actually stands today.

Alex: at the inflection point of building first industry relevant machines. So I think it's a race now to the mega quop machine. this will happen in the next eighteen to twenty four months and this is the first inflection point where you can do something industry relevant.

Vit Horky: That was Alexander Glätzle, the co-founder and CEO of planqc, one of our founders' force members. And thank you so much for this discussion. I gotta say, I've got so many questions here that I would like to still ask. It was incredibly intellectually fruitful discussion. I learned a lot. Thank you so much, Alex, for joining me today.

Alex: Thanks, but it was really a pleasure being in your podcast and hope to see you and speak to you soon again.