Collecting Digital Art: Pioneers, Provenance and the Artist’s Intent

0:00 Hello and welcome to another episode of Virst Talks. This week, Jamie and I are joined by two brilliant collectors, Janice Dordis and Ivan from Guerita Art, to discuss the pioneers of computer art and what it means to collect and preserve and share their work today. We began by asking how they started collecting and how they see the space today.

0:22 Here is our conversation. Janice, let's start with you. How did you begin collecting and how do you see the space today?

0:30 I got into crypto in 2016-17 after being a bit um active in stock trading, more as a hobby throughout university. And I found out about NFTs during 2018. And that's that's the first time that I actually understood how this technology can be applied to digital ownership. And it made sense to me as a gamer since I was basically born.

1:00 And fast forward a few years later, two years later in 2020, um, because I had uh I was trading um the Rarable token, the platform um token of Rarable basically, um and made some money there. Um I decided to reinvest some of the profits back into the platform, collect some NFTs. It was mainly trash art, meme art, uh computer art, started collecting early computer uh early crypto art, and then came art blocks where I started minting and getting into generative art, which eventually led me into computer art.

1:44 And now six years later, um still collecting, still very active, and trying to learn more and more about art and digital art every day.

1:58 Janus, when did the switch flip? When did you go from kind of um seeing it as um yeah, when did you go from trader to collector, as it were? Because I think of you as a collector rather than a trader.

2:11 No, a hundred percent. Um I think it happened pretty quickly uh when I was just casually collecting uh, you know, things that to me at the time seemed funny or interesting, you know, like Mimart um on Rarable. I had set a weekly budget for myself, which I kept going over every day. And then I realized it wasn't just you know, I'm buying something to sell it in a week or or the next day.

2:39 It's uh I'm buying things that I like and I want to keep. And you know, sometimes it was tied to an event in crypto or or IRL. Um, but I think the the moment that really unlocked me was um bidding on auctions for one-on-ones on Super Air or Maker's Lace or Known Origin, where I spent more money that I was planning to spend.

3:07 And I actually started doing research on on the artists, and it wasn't just okay, this looks good, I'm collecting it. I'm actually, you know, checking out socials, checking out portfolio, checking out websites and and doing a bit more research on on a piece that I want to collect. And that happened maybe one or two months from when I started collecting on Raraball in August 2020.

3:32 Can you tell us a little bit um about Automat? Um, about when you co-founded it and and what the purpose, yeah, what you're hoping to do with it?

3:45 Yeah, for sure. Um so Automat as an idea started in 2020. It's uh it's um uh a company um focused on digital art, not just NFTs. Um, and we're fundraising money to create a long-term and you know high-quality digital art collection as a main focus, and then as you know, as secondary activities, we want to do events, uh publishing, research, um advisory, anything we can do that revolves around education, because we want to educate people on why digital art is interesting, it's important, and then potentially, you know, it's the next big art movement as well.

4:37 So, in a nutshell, that's basically what Automat is. I hope that was clear.

4:42 Ivan, actually, it'd be great to hear from you. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yeah, how you got into collecting digital art and and also what is Guerrita art?

4:58 Right. Yeah, so my own background is in computer technology and AI, including applied computer vision. So I'm uh naturally interested in what happens when artists work with computation. Um I collect across physical and and digital formats, and um possibly unlike um Giannis, I came to um computer art later, so I'm not a crypto art OG.

5:39 Um I in fact started uh collecting um NFTs during the bear, kind of after the FTX collapse and so on. Um before that, I have collected traditional art for many years.

5:58 Can I interrupt you and ask you what kind of traditional art, what kind of artists you were interested in?

6:05 Yeah, so I mean, some of it was uh local artists to uh wherever I lived at the time, who you know are not internationally known. But um I do have some small pieces by Liechtenstein, uh Sol Lewitt, who is somewhat adjacent to you know procedural art and NFTs down the line, uh that kind of stuff.

6:32 Amazing. All right. Um so then how did you then get into um collecting digital art and NFTs?

6:41 Right. Yeah, so um during the pandemic was when I um got more interested in crypto, so relatively late. I did, however, kind of watch the the NFT craze from the sidelines. I would say thankfully, because some of the valuations were uh unsustainable. Um but after um um things subsided, I started looking at uh OpenSea and uh and uh doing some research, trying to um and I and I quickly, in fact, uh discovered one, you know, the um consensus artists uh that everybody in the space uh seems to like, but also I discovered um so-called NFT archaeologists who were digging at the very first days of Ethereum and uh what were the earliest NFTs and and so forth.

7:45 So uh I started collecting some of those. And it it was a relatively quiet time in the market. It felt like, and and even today it still feels like to me that there may be on the order of uh a hundred serious collectors in the space. Certainly there are more wallets that contain uh digital art, but uh but those who continuously collect um are not that many.

8:17 Did you um Ivan, did you uh learn about this all via X or Twitter at the time?

8:25 Yes, definitely via X and and joining Discords. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

8:32 And I Ivan, what was it that made you go down the kind of archaeology route rather than um yeah, what was the thinking that that led you to avoid the consensus artists and look elsewhere?

8:51 Right. Well, I have collected uh some of the consensus artists because I actually like them, but I have also have collected some pieces which at some point I might want to uh sell. Um but I've always been a bit of a contrarian perhaps, and also interested in in the origins of of some field and interested in history.

9:21 So um I was curious to see where things started. You know, I um for what is worth, I also have uh academic training in in cryptography, so I've uh been interested to understand at the deep level how Ethereum works and and the other chains, and um so that kind of drove me to the early beginnings. But also, interestingly enough, and I think this might come up later with uh pioneers, I did discover because I also asked the question, hey, where did this style of art originate from?

10:00 I quickly discovered um uh Vera's uh uh NFTs and and Herbert Franke, and then from there started digging into their um early works.

10:15 I feel like um many of us collecting NFTs went in just buying fun things like Janice was saying earlier, it was just fun to buy whatever you like. Um it feels like Ivan you from the very beginning were quite um purposeful with what you wanted to collect. Um do you feel like you from the very beginning knew exactly how you want to build your collection, or do you also feel like forming your collection is something that came later?

10:48 Like because it's yeah, it seems to have such a strong direction right now.

10:53 Right. Yeah, so I definitely wasn't part of the euphoric period of NFT collecting. So that helped. I I did approach it as more of a traditional art collector. Um, but that said, uh digital art and especially art on the blockchain has its own um kind of minting mechanics and um and traits and features and rarity and so forth, which you don't see in in traditional art as much.

11:33 Um and and so there was a learning period both in terms of um what is rare and and valuable as well as aesthetics. So, for example, when I speak about aesthetics, um I am um more interested in figurative and representational art, but part of that is also that the more I discovered uh various generative art drops, the more they all looked like geometric abstraction of various kinds.

12:13 And there were so many collections minted during the the peak that I almost kind of burnt out a bit on uh on abstraction and uh and and wanted to seek out uh artists who who worked more figuratively with with generative means. So, for example, one outstanding artist who is not uh as as popular is uh DCA Daniel uh Corderona Arenas.

12:48 Um he has amazing uh figurative works, uh which are generative.

12:57 Um you are both part of a core collector group that looks specifically at historic artists, and I think this is it's really interesting. Um being in the NFT space and having interest in in earlier artists. Uh I feel like your role is like extra important because I feel a lot of these artists were um mostly overlooked or misunderstood um during their lifetime, mostly.

13:31 And I think we're entering a really interesting period where collectors by building collections will kind of retell that history, like why they mattered. So I mean, why certain why Charles Sourey was celebrated for some things during his lifetime might be very different to how we talk about him right now and and how collectors look at him as work right now.

13:55 Um tell me a little bit more about why you think um there is more interest now in historic art. And is is this just something that seems like that to me? Or do you feel um, yeah, Janice, do you feel like interest is kind of shifting um from that euphoric get everything to let's go back to the very beginning?

14:19 Yeah, I would love to hear from you on that too.

14:23 I I would just add something that I wanted to mention before I just didn't want to um interrupt Ivan. I think it's it's interesting because also I think taste develops. I don't I don't have the same taste I had six years ago. I I look at projects, uh collections, uh artworks very differently than I did even like two or three years ago.

14:46 So I think you know it's not I don't have the same mentality and the same taste I had six years ago. Um and obviously that changes based on you know exposure and research and educating myself basically, uh apart from also surrounding myself with really smart people and experienced people. Um for example, you know, um uh Jorg Bach, uh who's someone that we that we both know and you know interact with.

15:16 Um he's helped me a lot throughout the years, um, you know, teaching me about early computer art, about the pioneers. Um funnily enough, the the name Automat for our new venture came because of my early discussions with with Jork and his one of his first, I guess, shows that he did in 2017, uh which were based on the book Automat and Mensch.

15:41 Um so I mean on what you you just asked, um, I would say I think NFTs did play a big role in accelerating the interest in computer art, early computer art, because for me at least, when I started uh getting involved with generative art through art blogs, uh one of the first things I did after the first month of you know minting like squiggles and and other collections was to go back and and see where where did generative art begin, you know, because I feel that I needed to know the the basics in order to judge what I'm collecting and what I'm possibly going to collect in the future.

16:32 And you know, that led me to amazing collectors like Michael Svalter, to pioneers like like the obvious ones, like you know, Charles Ksuri and Vera Mulnar and Herbert Franke, but it's so much more than you know just these three artists. There's there's like a hundred plus artists who were pioneers throughout the the world at the time, and many of them were doing really interesting things.

16:59 And if I had never seen that, those pieces, those artists, I would look at collections minted today, and they would seem new and interesting while they've been done before many, many times. And you know, either if they're an homage or just someone took inspiration from these older collections, even without knowing, you know, a lot of the things we see today have already been done.

17:25 Because let's not forget this is like a you know 70, 75 uh or whatever years of of digital art and computer art existing. And for the longest time, it was um you know fought against that you know uh early computer artists were told that they're not artists, and they had to fight for that on and on throughout the years.

17:49 I think the the last 25-30 years is where computer art started getting more accepted, and you know, apart from some early institutions that accepted it from the get-go, like in the 60s and 70s, like the VNA, for example, um, most institutions started accepting you know this early computer art after the 2000s.

18:14 Um so I think with NFTs, um the crowd that that is in in the NFT space is very pro-technology. So I think, and because they're they're a very, you know, uh a bunch that is very fascinated and wants to explore and experiment, it was only logical for them to look back and and search for the origins, uh, which I think many, many of us here did.

18:41 Not everyone, but um I think that was a factor. And sorry, I'll I'll try and keep it short. I think the second factor was that um for the last at least six years that I've been in digital art, every year I see a bigger presence of digital art in art fairs, in the Venice Biennale. Um, like everywhere I go that is not an NFT event, most likely there's gonna be some sort of digital art, like a screen with a work or or whatever.

19:14 So I think the traditional art world is also opening up more to digital art and early computer art. And we saw that as well um at Art Basel in Basel, where you know I would say 50% of um of art basel there was early computer art. Maybe not 50%, maybe 45%, but it was close to 50%. And I thought that was the ideal place to show the origins of digital art, uh, and it was the right crowd that would, you know, appreciate um you know, not flashy big uh you know installations, but actually showing where all of this was born.

19:59 I mean coming back to Layla's original question then, like how how are you feeling? How do you feel about the state of things right right now and and the prospects for I suppose the NFT space, the the R S NFT space? Hmm.

20:14 I I think that over overall I'm obviously optimistic. I'm still here, I'm still collecting and supporting and doing whatever I can to push the space forward. Um, you know, I feel Janet.

20:29 The day that you leave is that that that feels like it's not gonna bode well.

20:38 I'm definitely definitely not planning to go anywhere. But I think it's I'm still pretty optimistic. I think you know, sadly, I'm saying it's sad because you know, NFTs are very tied to the crypto market and the the crypto space, and you know, that means that we have to suffer the volatility either upwards or downwards that you know these crypto cycles have.

21:07 Uh, we need to deal with a lot of people who are thinking more uh about NFTs from a financial standpoint and not from an art standpoint, like a gay opportunist, which is fine, but you know, when it's like 95%, that that tends to be an issue. And you know, we saw that with you know artists' careers just you know um exploding, and after a year, again, their you know, the if if you if you would look at it as a chart, their careers would like pump and dump basically because of you know no education, very close tied to crypto volatility, uh a lot of euphoria and hype.

21:52 You know, I think we we experienced what the art world experiences in just a few years in in you know in What usually would have been experienced in 10 years or 15 years or 20 years. So, you know, the I don't think there was any irreversible damage, but uh we definitely have to change our approach and our mentality.

22:14 I'm still very optimistic. Um we we see it all the time, every month. Um huge museums and institutions and foundations are embracing and collecting, uh, or rather are getting um donations of of digital art. Recently it was like 200 pieces uh donated to LACMA. Um, you know, the the I think the level and and the quality of the space is going up, even if you know the liquidity is not there right now, especially compared to the last bull market.

22:49 But as more new collectors from traditional art or just new collectors from the tech space enter, uh as more experienced people from the art world, from you know, curators, writers, like literally uh the whole the whole spectrum um from the art world comes to and embraces art space, I think it's just going to get better and better as time goes by.

23:15 Do you have any thoughts on how big it can get?

23:18 I mean, I don't want to get into you know financial. We like numbers, Janet.

23:23 We like numbers.

23:24 No, I but I I think uh uh something that's gonna be massive is and this is part of my thesis for the last few years, is I think when younger generations um get uh either make their own money or get part of an inheritance, which uh we're talking about an incredible amount of money that is about to get inherited by younger generations.

23:50 I think the moment that the generations that understand digital ownership have capital and liquidity, we'll see the space really thrive. Because right now, you know, uh for better or for worse, you know, the capital is at the hands of uh older generations who don't trust, don't understand, don't want to get involved.

24:14 Uh and that's completely fair, by the way. But when we're talking about younger generations who some of them have been born into technology, like they're born and they have an iPad in front of their face. And a few years later they're playing video games and buying skins and buying digital currency. They they understand digital ownership.

24:33 That I think that is the future for digital art.

24:38 I mean, they literally don't know what cash is. Like they just never use it.

24:43 Yeah.

24:44 They just don't. It's just like this magical thing. Ivan, I'm curious to know how you feel about it because you joined Past Euphoria. You came in. Yeah, what do you think of the space? What is your reading of it, given that you were familiar with the traditional art market to a degree? Um Yeah, what are your thoughts on the future of it and where do you think we're at?

25:09 Yeah, I see uh two different sides to the space. One is digital collectibles, which have their own dynamics uh in rarity and and so forth, and then digital art as fine art, and and that is to me at least a smaller part of the space. So, even to the earlier question, you know, hey, how big can it get?

25:37 Um, well, the digital collectibles could be huge, um the fine art part of it probably will remain uh much smaller. And um where where would it go? So to me, NFTs and and um are kind of a mechanism to provide uh secure provenance and a timestamp of when this uh artwork was created and minted. And um and that's very useful and and easy to transfer and and sell and and and buy and less friction compared to traditional art.

26:22 And and so that's very valuable for digital art. Um but that said, I don't know what uh art will look like in the future. But there's reasons to believe that physical art um will actually be more valuable and more sought after now that we have huge abundance coming out of generative art and AI. Um so from that point of view, it's it's hard to tell, but I I firmly believe that whenever digital art is sold, NFT is the right mechanism for it.

27:06 Uh can I can I just add something? I don't I don't want to take the mic from Ivan. Just want to add something. It's it's uh it's really interesting what he said about essentially scarcity and handmade, quote unquote handmade art. I don't think that only applies to physical art. I think that also applies to, let's say, pre-AI art.

27:27 Or, you know, I would say essentially early art blogs where, you know, I don't know if every artist, but you know, most artists coded by hand, I think that's still going to be more valuable in the future compared to you know something that was vite-coded or uh AI generated as well.

27:48 Yeah, let me let me add something to this. I I do agree with this. The pre-AI art, and and in fact, I also collected more. But um one interesting bit is that uh especially today, if a new artist shows up on the scene, we don't know to what extent um their vision or execution of their work comes from AI.

28:15 But some artists uh in the space have a sustained practice over the years. They continue to develop their craft, uh, like for example, uh Kim Masendorff, Harm van den Dorpo, etc. And so their old work is interesting to collect, their new work as well, and even if they end up using AI, their their vision kind of persists throughout their their work.

28:46 But uh, and and as such, at least to me, it remains interesting. But if there's a new name on the scene, to me at least, it's harder to tell to what extent it's handcrafted, so to say.

29:00 Would it massive one for one I mean when when when you use the term consensus I or maybe I used the term consensus office earlier, um I I I suppose to to an extent um going early, going historic is like um the consensus that makes sense, it's it's irrefutable. Um like there is the the the the very early artists are that there's a scarcity there, it'll always be important.

29:36 Um it's much less arbitrary than any of the kind of quote unquote kind of more contemporary consensus artists. Um and and is is that is that kind of what this is about with the AI thing?

29:56 Like um maybe maybe I can address this real quick. So artists and for that matter also estates, if we're talking about pioneers, they they need to curate and manage their art uh collections and drops so they are not too large and not don't destroy the the the scarcity. Like for example, Andreas uh Gissin for um the last art basel, I think had a collection drop on the order of 10 pieces, and that was the right way to go.

30:38 Yeah.

30:39 Yeah, I don't I don't want to open that kind of worms because it's a huge debate about scarcity and I have very yeah, I don't think people will like my my approach on on you know, especially AI artists and how much they uh mint basically.

31:00 Uh I want to hear what people don't want to hear. Or that what they don't like. What did you want to tell me? What do you think uh people will not like about your approach?

31:10 I mean, I I you know I'm I'm not an expert. I don't, you know, I don't have I haven't been educated on art, I don't have a degree on on art, but I feel that it's very it's easy for artists.

31:24 You're you're definitely an expert, Janice. You're definitely an expert.

31:28 Yeah, you're more of an expert than I am, and I worked at a museum. I think you're definitely more of an expert.

31:34 Definitely not. But I I think that it's especially during a bull market, it's very easy to get carried by the wave or the euphoria wave, let's say. And because there's so much liquidity, anything you mint is probably gonna get collected. Uh, because you know it's easier to spend your crypto on something digital than something physical.

31:56 So and and and it's also you know, in the in the sense that a lot of people that are in crypto don't have the desire to flex with physical uh items like a watch or a car or a boat, they'd rather buy you know an alien crypto bunk, for example. But to my point, is uh it it's it's very easy to get carried away as an artist and keep minting and not thinking about the future.

32:21 And I think a lot of artists, you know, um basically made that mistake and realized that they made a mistake and then they started pacing themselves. But I think the majority, especially ART AI artists, uh have fallen into that trap. And you know, there's there's artists who in two or three years have released more than a few or you know, I would say from one to ten thousand pieces, maybe more, and it's just one, two, three years.

32:51 So what happens in 20 years? Are they gonna have millions of pieces? And what does that mean for their market? And you know, maybe they don't care, but it will affect them long term, in my in my mind.

33:05 Oh, absolutely. I I agree.

33:07 Such a tough topic because there are there's no kind of hard and fast rule. I mean what Jack Butcher does, yeah.

33:15 I mean, obviously obviously I Jack Butcher and also Well, I was just speaking with Brian Dradcourt about Evil Biscuit today. 111,000 pieces with Parker. I mean, it's um yeah, I I don't know how it works. It goes it's impressive, but somehow people like Jack and Evil Biscuit seem to be able to pull it off.

33:41 Um I think it it also depends on the project. Yeah, yeah, it's in a few uh one like seven days or something. But I think it depends on the project. Like if you're doing one collection and it's like a hundred thousand NFTs, okay, you know, maybe that's okay. It depends on on the specifics of the project.

34:03 But if every project or every release you do, it's like uh you know, a few dozen NFTs or a hundred, uh hundreds of NFTs or a thousand, and every release is like that, and in a few years you have like, I don't know, a million NFTs minted, that that's an issue in my mind. Except if you're doing it just for the provenance and you just want to put your art on the blockchain, and you know, it's you're doing it just so you can have your art on the blockchain forever.

34:34 Let's say maybe not forever, but you know what I mean. That's a different discussion, but that's not what most people do.

34:40 Although it I I was actually gonna circle back into your group chat. Your group chat of important collectors who look at important artworks and um look at historically. This is the chat we all it's the kind of the elitist chat, I think. Um but the reason why I want to speak about this is that um what like what kind of things do you guys discuss?

35:08 And I'm assuming all of you are in this group because there are key pieces that you feel like should be in in your collections, whether that's as an NFT, whether that's as a physical or whatever. I because I feel like all of you are building uh well, I'm I'm generalizing, but I know both of you are building collections that are a representation of digital art and computer art.

35:34 Um so how, yeah, what what would you say are pieces that people should collect? That if if I'm new to digital art and NFTs, what are the key pieces that I need to look at? How do you tell that story? And is it one story, or are there different ways of looking at it? How do I build it, build an important collection?

36:01 I'll let Ivan, I'll let Ivan answer that. I'll just say it's not a group of elitists, it's just a group of like enjoyers, I would say. And it it formed kind of out of necessity. Uh, I think Shamrock was the one who initiated the formation of the group. Um and it was more so we have a place where we can share knowledge, share opportunities, you know, exchange our our views on certain topics.

36:31 It's it's not some sort of cabal or whatever is the buzzword these days again.

36:37 Yeah, so um yeah, thank you, Janice, for uh letting me go through the minefield first. Um how how to start collecting uh important computer art. If it's contemporary, I would say a person should look through uh art blocks curated and uh start there. What uh Janis was talking about is uh is a group chat of people who are interested in early works by pioneers, which more often than not are physical and decades old.

37:14 And uh for that, uh as with collecting anything old and vintage, people need to be more educated. I would say uh people should start by reading uh books about this art, which uh which uh there are many that are that are good that Janice and I have uh collected in our libraries. But um, as a good starting point, I would say the cybernetic serendipity um exhibition and catalog from 1968 is a great place to start.

37:53 Um the artists who were featured there who also ended up having a uh sustained practice down the line, um are ones that are interesting to collect and get started with.

38:10 I think I I would just add to what Ivan said. It's just it's it's not uh it might look very difficult when you start researching, but if you start you know from the obvious three, which is you know, Vera Mulnar, Herper, Franke, Charles Xuri, just just by doing research on them and Googling and and looking through their you know their life basically and their story, you inevitably stumble upon other pioneers like uh Frieda Ernake, um some more obscure ones, which are not in reality, but sadly they're not that known, like you know, Ruth Leavitt and Um Lillian Swartz.

38:54 Um, you know, you you I think it's it's you know, the moment you fall down the rabbit hole, slowly you will organically learn about the scene. Uh and it and if if you just take it as a story and you take it from the beginning, you know, you you'll see the progression and the artists who pop up and why they're important, what they did, you know, not just in terms of art, but in terms of you know um philosophy as well, because it's not just they were they were just creating art, they were talking about computers and technology and art.

39:31 And some of them were also arguing that maybe technology isn't the best thing about art, but they were still creating um computer art at the same time, which is to me interesting.

39:41 Um We actually um invited you both because you both, well, we are releasing um Ordo, which is a series by Charles Souri made in 2017. And both of you are obviously very familiar with this practice, um, given your interest. And um and I think you both have no, I don't think, I know you both have different views on whether there's this whole discussion on you know, mints when when an artist has passed away and the work is minted after they've passed away.

40:23 And I really wanted to open this discussion because I think it's really important. I'm really passionate about it because for me the most exciting part about I find NFTs in general is what I said earlier, is the the role that collectors play in celebrating an artist and re-narrating their story. Um, something that I just don't think museums or you know curators have either the knowledge or the capacity for.

40:55 And I think collectors more than ever, and especially digital collectors, have this incredible power. So for me, it's a really interesting thing to discuss. Um yeah, I wanted to hear from both of you what what your thoughts are on this topic in general. And yeah, what's the right thing to do? What's the wrong thing to do?

41:19 And um, yeah, I don't know who wants to start or if I think isn't it a kind of two isn't it a two-part one later that's kind of minting later and then minting aftermaster start?

41:32 Yes, that is also true. That is also true. There's two parts to it. Maybe you can rephrase the question.

41:40 Um Yeah, I mean there are the two parts of it for sure. Like one is the retroactive meant, and the other one is posthumous mint uh from the estate. And uh it it varies kind of case by case, but in general, right, an NFT gives you provenance and a timestamp, and both of these, the retroactive meant and the posthumous mints, are in a way a bad idea because they they violate one or both of these, but uh but there's nuance here.

42:19 So if the work is digital and in a modern format, uh which is the case with Ordo, um, I personally think this is okay and and appropriate. But if that's not the case, if the work is not digital and is getting digitized, or maybe it's digital but in some ancient format from the 70s or early 80s, um, then it becomes an estate-approved derivative work.

42:53 In you know, in the extreme, it's like buying a Basquiat iPhone case, which sometimes is the case, but I don't think uh applies to Ordo.

43:07 Do you do you have any kind of um fixed mental format?

43:14 Yeah, I mean what what any any hard rules I don't know if it's hard rules, but again, um especially perhaps coming from the more traditional art angle, th there is a concept of remediation, meaning taking it from the original medium the work was in to a different one, like um turning a painting into a print, something like that.

43:46 So if if it's posthumous and there's a remediation, meaning um you're turning a plotter into a um digital image, that to me is a Big red line. And the other one which is important is did the artist during their lifetime express some interest in uh in this sort of distribution of their work or not? Or were they even involved in it or not?

44:24 And and again, in the case of Surrey, he did express that interest, and some NFTs were created before Ordo. So these two are the main decision points for me to decide if it's uh if it's okay to do a mint or not.

44:42 Express interest is quite loose. So express interest in NFTs generally, or specifically express interest in minting a particular work as an NFT?

44:52 I I don't know if it's minting an NFT because I think NFTs are a form of certificate of authenticity on a blockchain, but uh expressing interest in digital uh distribution of their work, ideally being aware of the blockchain, of course.

45:15 So when you mentioned um so does that mean you think the Wall Hall NFT, it does that cross a red line for you, given what you've just said about what you don't feel like is the right thing?

45:34 Yeah, I think it I think it does. I think that was an example of re-mediating the work, but uh I I am not very solid on this because I I'm not 100% sure what the format of the original files was.

45:49 If again, if it was a contemporary format, then it was a DVD, and actually this is a really interesting one. I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on that. Um of the issues that I find particularly challenging with artists that use technology um in their work is that the biggest problem is that you it was just really hard to document most of their work, right?

46:16 They used a lot of technologies that have become obsolete. A lot of work got lost. I mean, I was speaking to Caroline about Suri's work, it's interactive works, which honestly at the time absolutely like revolutionary in a way, but also just very rare. Um they they just don't exist anymore. There's not even documentation of it because you know they couldn't take that many photographs of the works back then.

46:41 There's very little photography even on it. And like going back to what you were saying about the warhol, like, okay, so that was on a DVD. Does that mean that if they couldn't transfer it into another if you can't transfer it into a more contemporary DVDs even around when Warhol was? Uh sorry, I mean floppy desk.

47:03 I'm sorry, floppy desk. Yeah, I mean, what do you think about yeah, all these all all the ways they're there um these works could get lost? Like, does that mean they shouldn't get sold that way? They shouldn't get ex Yes. Tell me a little bit more about that, because it does mean quite a lot of work would get lost in the mix.

47:28 I mean, I think it's a it's a sliding scale, right? Like if if there's a work by Leonardo da Vinci that has been mainly lost, but from his notebooks we can try to recreate it. Uh the recreation is probably not going to be a work by Leonardo. Um while if it's a more recent work. Yeah, I think I think it varies a bit.

47:54 I mean, I'd love to hear Janice's take on this.

47:57 Uh yeah, I have a lot to say. But it's it's quite interesting because now that you mentioned it, Ivan, I hadn't thought of it that way. But you know, even in traditional art, um paintings get restored. And you know, there's there's people who work on it that restore these works, and obviously it's not a hundred percent the artist's works, but we still, you know, consider it, you know, uh an artist painting, even if someone has made some minor uh restorations and corrections left and right.

48:27 And I hadn't thought of that.

48:28 That's that's an interesting yeah, but they're not changing the medium. Like no. There's still a painting which is getting maybe cleaned and some paint gets applied here and there, but that's different from turning it into a print or taking a photo of it or something like that. Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.

48:52 But yeah, so from that point of view, in fact, to add one more thing here is if um uh with Ordo, um I'm these files were on a uh silicon graphics workstation or something like that, and they had to get moved somewhere else. And uh in and maybe there was, you know, the obviously the timestamp of the new file is different uh on a different machine before it gets minted.

49:19 That that's okay. That's kind of like the cleaning of the old Rembrandt painting.

49:28 They were found they were in his folder um that he made, like they were on his desktop. They're as then they have a well, yes, they've moved from his desktop to the studio.

49:43 The blockchain to Ethereum. IPFS. Yes, IPFS, right?

49:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Janice.

49:56 Uh it's it's I'll I'll just start by saying, you know, I generally do oppose, you know, um NFT releases after an artist has passed away. But the clear distinction here is if there's no it's it's what Ivan said before, if there's no clear evidence of an artist's intent, because legal permission and artistic authorization are not the same thing.

50:24 And that's one of my main points. You know, having the rights to the art is not the same as the intent for that art. So NSA can own the rights without knowing how the artist would have wanted the specific release handle. Um what does that mean? Like minting is not just pressing a button, right? It's you know, are we minting this as a one one of one?

50:49 Is it gonna be a hundred editions? Is it gonna be a one out of one out of X? Is it gonna be still? Is it gonna be animated, on-chain or off-chain? There's there's so many parameters, and that is artistic, those are artistic choices. That is not a choice, in my opinion, that a state, uh, this the state should uh make.

51:11 That that's just my opinion. And you know, again, something that you guys discussed before, you know, our archiving is not the same as releasing, like having these files on the blockchain, these experiments or files or whatever, um, in order for them to survive and be documented is different to actually selling these works.

51:34 And I have two more points. So um also uh again, Ivan kind of touched on this, but you know, NFTs can can blur what original means. Because when let's say I, the collector, uh buy and mint a one of one that existed in another form and might exist as a physical as well. Let's say, for example, which is the original, the digital, the physical, the file, uh, and that can't be debated upon because the artist isn't alive anymore.

52:07 Um, because whatever the artist considers the original, I consider the original, right? And I think that's what most people do as well, uh, from the collector side. So I wouldn't say I'm against uh NFTs being minted after the death of an artist, but it has to be in my mind approved by the artist and not just approved, but I think that there should be some direction from the artist and not every choice and every every decision is made by the estate.

52:43 I agree.

52:46 I I want to go first. I I feel I feel I feel I feel strongly about this because I'm married to an artist. And if my husband was to die tomorrow and tell me, Leila, I want you to make sure my work gets everywhere. It outlives me, it gets into every single home, no matter what it takes. I love new technologies, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

53:14 And he had doesn't have the time to um like identify detailed-wise what that is. It's like we've been together for 28 years. Um there's a certain trust that you leave with the person who's going to run your estate. Um so I think you're right, but it's nuanced, meaning it really depends on who runs the estate, um, how long they've been involved, which in this case it's been, you know, thir over 30 plus years that she's been in his life.

53:50 I do think families running estates is the whole other thing, but but in general, I think it's somebody who really knows the work and the artists very well. Um and it's an artist who so I think in principle you're right, but I think it really depends on you know who the artist is, what their wishes were.

54:11 And I think to say that a state absolutely cannot make those decisions, I don't think that's true, because in fact, that's what the artist would want, I think, in most cases. And I know a lot of artists. Um I think um, yeah, I and I think at what cost are you then losing out on being so tight about it that you then lose out on the artist actually.

54:36 Like, I mean, look at Vera Mulner. I really think her digital release has put her on the map, something she didn't have before, frankly, to this degree. Um yeah, what what outweighs one or the other, if you know what I mean?

54:51 I I I I think I don't agree with, you know, just because it's family, it's they know better, because in many cases we've seen that's not the case. But I think obviously if someone is to be in charge, it should be a family member that has lived with that person, you know, has uh communicated and had, you know, countless discussions about their art.

55:13 Obviously, in this scenario with Ordo, Caroline is the best person that you could have because not only sh did she live through it and experienced everything firsthand, she was an artist, she is an artist, you know, you know what I mean? Like it's obviously not the same as what we're we're talking about in general.

55:33 For for for Charles, I think you know, Caroline, Caroline is the the perfect person to do that. And it's funny because I had this discussion with Caroline in Art Basel and Basel, and I was saying that you know, if if the artist didn't express an intent, I don't think it's the right thing to do. And she told me that you know her father did did want to to you know mint NFTs and specific collections NFTs.

56:01 So, you know, who am I to say that he never said that if if his daughter is saying that, you know?

56:07 Yeah. Yeah.

56:10 Yeah, something to to add here, and even provide a counterexample as well, is um an important question here is did the artists create this work in their lifetime? Which in the case of Ordo, uh we we know for sure because in 2018 there was a publication uh by the National Academies of one of the Ordo pieces.

56:35 Um did they create it in their lifetime with digital uh files in art? That could be a tricky question to answer. Um, and then why didn't they publish it um as um digital art NFTs while still alive? And in the case of uh Suri, he did a couple of uh NFTs during his lifetime, but he was in his late 90s.

57:01 So that explains why Ordo didn't get published earlier. Um and then uh a question also to ask is if if the artist did not if the work was created during their lifetime but wasn't published, uh artistically, did they think highly enough of this work? Did they want it to be exhibited or sold or or not?

57:28 And it's an interesting question to answer. And and the counterexample that I'll give is um a major digital artist and pioneer, Manfred Moore. So he's still alive, but um um advanced in age, he could have minted NFTs in his lifetime many times and has chosen not to. So if at some point in the future, um after he passes his estate, decides to start minting NFTs, I think that would be very unauthentic.

58:04 Um but the case of uh Suri and Ordo is in in fact, I would say quite the opposite.

58:12 I agree, it would feel as an authentic, but but but are they but are they not his are they not still his works? If if a if a painter um dies and a load of drawings are found in their studio and they're not signed, they haven't been put out as their official artworks, but they're obviously by the artist.

58:32 Um if someone wants to buy them and does so, are they are they not buying something by the artist? I mean how how that that feels kind of kind of the same thing.

58:46 I mean, if if they're not signed or dated, I know that I myself would probably not be interested.

58:51 Same, same 100%. I I will 99% of the time avoid collecting anything without a signature or provenance. I've I've done that mistake one or two or three times, I'm never doing it again. Provenance and you know, a signature are very, very important. Also, I mean one one more point, uh, one more point on that is that I under also understand, you know, if there's an estate and you know that the artist has only produced a very limited amount of artworks in his lifetime, and you know, that artist has demand, he has you know traction, his his his career has has been in quote unquote career has been growing even if he has passed away.

59:37 You know, as an estate, you obviously want to make his works approachable and collectible, especially if they're very highly priced, right? If the secondary market is just like unattainable for the majority of the collectors out there, you wanna do something for people who still want to collect something of his but or hers, but you know, it it needs to be done in a respectful way.

1:00:03 If it's you know, if it's a print of a painting, I know what I'm buying. I'm buying a print. I'm not buying the original. Like, you know, I I might have, you know, I don't know, the Guernica has a print in my house. Everyone knows it's not the the original one, but I still have something which is you know um official from the estate.

1:00:23 It might not have his signature, but you know, it's like a a license, an official um art piece. Uh still, but but but the price difference is there. You know that when you're buying a print like a reproduction, it's not the real thing, right? It's not quote unquote the real thing.

1:00:45 Yeah, it's like going to a Monet exhibition at the MoMA and you buy a poster of the exhibition, it you know, it commemorates the artist, it might be limited run, but it's not the original art and and is priced accordingly. Yeah, 100%. 100%.

1:01:06 Janice, how how do you think about this one? So I I spoke with someone who was saying um Yeah, why he he was saying why why mint um as an NFT I I want the file? Like I'm I'm interested in owning the autofiles. It doesn't need to be an NFT. The implication being, okay, well, you know, maybe a certificate's fine.

1:01:29 But in my mind, that's kind of exactly what's happening here. The the record on Ethereum is serves as that certificate. You do own the NFT and it's and and you and you also and you also get a kind of um yeah, the the the original image on on IPFS as well. Um is is yeah, where where's the where's the flaw there?

1:01:50 How would how would you push back on that?

1:01:53 I I think the the the biggest issue with files is like there's no provenance, you don't know if the file exists somewhere else. How do you prove that this is authentic? Like the I I throughout the years, uh, me and uh and Mike, my co-founder for Automat, we've been talking to a lot of traditional art collectors, and most of them avoid collecting new media or like you know, digital art in the form of an installation because they the same arguments keep coming up, they break, they're hard to maintain, they get lost, uh, they get corrupted, like they have no desire to consistently collect VHS tapes, CDs, USB sticks, or whatever, because it's not sustainable and you know, best practice.

1:02:43 But that's why we have the blockchain, that's what the blockchain solves. So even if I was buying, collecting, acquiring whatever uh you know, code or a file, I would prefer if that was on the blockchain, not on a USB stick or on my computer where I can't prove anything, uh, if it's original, if it's not, how many of them exist, etc.

1:03:05 So I a hundred percent I would want to collect Ordo um as an NFT, especially if if Charles, you know, gave it his blessing before he passed away. Um my only issue with with this release is that am I am I am I right um in the sense that you also get uh you can also get a print and that print does not have his signature.

1:03:33 So it's something that doesn't necessarily interest me. Because if I I I collect something from Charles Curry, I want it to have his signature. Um ideally. Ideally. Or else it's for me, it's something that I'm not gonna put on my walls. I'm not gonna put something on on my wall that doesn't have a signature because I don't I don't uh I don't find the the purpose of it personally.

1:03:55 Maybe other people do, and maybe the majority does, but I don't.

1:03:59 I agree with you on that. Yeah. Anything you can do.

1:04:02 Yeah, it doesn't yeah, it it I it's it's a digital first work. Um there is an option if people want to print the work, they can do that separately, but it acts more like a poster. Um, so it's definitely not the work. And it's it's it's the same printer Suri worked with before he died, and he's got all the specs, etc.

1:04:25 So Caroline wanted to have that option available if anybody asks, but it is definitely a digital first.

1:04:32 Um Yeah, which again, I don't think it's bad. I've collected you know prints that don't have signatures. It's it's it's like I would collect it because I if it's if there's an NFT with a physical, I'll always get the physical, regardless of the signature. But in my mind, it's inferior, and I don't have the desire to display that because I don't feel it's like an or quote unquote original.

1:04:57 I wonder actually whether it's worth talking about in general. How you think like all these historic artists? Um yeah, how can we retell their story? Um, given you guys are digital that you like you collect digital artworks, these early computer artists, like what do you think the the responsibility of estates are?

1:05:19 How can we it's a pretty small little like era of time? Um do you think estates should think about it in general or living, some of them are still living and they're just old. Um how should these artists think about works that they've had for a while? I mean, I saw a Larry Cuba one that Georg released the other day.

1:05:46 That was that was an earlier piece as well. I know Larry's a alive, so it's it's different, but still it's an early piece. It was probably on a different medium. Yeah, how should people think about it? But it was great to see it because otherwise I wouldn't have seen that piece unless I'm an Museum. So yeah, I would love to know both of your thoughts on that.

1:06:07 Who wants to start?

1:06:08 Yeah, I mean uh it's a good question, you know, what should the state do? And my take here might be a little controversial, but um in a way I think the state also could do more or less nothing except not misrepresent something about the artist's work. And ideally, uh collectors and curators can do the heavy lifting to increase the cultural value and for that matter financial value of the work.

1:06:46 Um and the state could do positive things in that direction. Like one good example is uh Herbert Frankie's foundation. They're doing a lot to increase the visibility of his art as well as uh early computer art in general. Uh but I feel like that's an exception, and for the most part, um it's um collectors like Janis or I or others in the space who are interested in these early works and are curating them, doing research, publishing this research, like for example, uh on uh on the Guerita site, we recently published something about uh ribbon tool used by Charles Suri and and kind of how it developed over time and and where Ordo fits in there.

1:07:44 Um I think that's that's how we tell the story. Um Janice, what do you think?

1:07:52 No, I agree 100%. I think it's very you know optimistic to see that many collectors are active in promoting, educating, displaying, highlighting early computer art. Like obviously we have, you know, in my opinion, you know, thankfully in our space, a number one early computer art collector, at least public, uh Michael Spalter, who has been doing a lot of work, you know, through his website, through loaning pieces non-stop to museums and shows.

1:08:29 Um, you know, he's he's been doing incredible work to spread the message of early computer art. But even from like, let's say younger generations, uh, you know, you have you know people like Ivan, like Ragnar, uh some people who are not um who are anonymous, um, who you know create their own websites, hire writers or write their own um articles or papers or research on on these movements or you know, specific regions like Ragnar did with South America.

1:09:03 Um you know, um there's there's so many initiatives by by collectors from our space, especially in early computer art, which is great to see, which like Ivan said, I think is something that should be um you know the heavy lifting basically uh that that should be done uh alongside the the estates. Uh but I also think that the estates should should work more with the collectors.

1:09:30 I know some estates do that, but uh like for example, you know, talking with Caroline and and seeing what I can do with you know my physical uh child's pieces, for example, is is something that you know I I haven't had that interaction with anyone else in the space, uh living or or or uh you know an artist that has passed away.

1:09:53 So what what kind of there's a lot to be done?

1:09:59 Um like me personally with Caroline or Yeah, when you say you haven't really kind of had that with anyone else, what what kind of um dialogue?

1:10:11 It it's it's you know, first of all, obviously getting a first hand um you know view and experience of Charles work, how he worked, what what his beliefs were. You know, I didn't read this on an article, I I I got this straight from his daughter who lived through it, right? And apart from that, you know, apart from edu getting educated on the artist furthermore, from you know, the the you know the primary source, um you know, talking about potentially you know helping out with loaning out pieces to museums or shows, you know, being being proactive in how you can you know spread the message uh you know about her her father.

1:11:01 Um I I I haven't had that before with with anyone else in the space, you know?

1:11:08 Do you feel in general the um the group of archaeologists that we have, um of which you guys are a part of, um do you do you feel you have Does the Cream rise to the top? Do the artists do you feel that the artists who really deserve to be recognized have ended up being the ones who are recognized? Broadly speaking.

1:11:35 No, no, but not not because of some sort of you know cabal or whatever, or you know, um because of a specific agenda. It's just you know, early computer art became a bit more mainstream the last, let's say, you know, 20, 25 years, but especially the last six years because of NFTs as well, and and collectors from NFTs, I think it's it's uh gotten way more traction.

1:12:06 Um I'm not yeah let me add something here. So yeah, um the story of many artists and works uh from this early period, let's say 50s, 60s, 70s, um is not well known, and sometimes what is known turns out to be incorrect and needs to be corrected. Um and and uh and I think we are in this period where again collectors who are very interested in in these works will have to do some of the heavy lifting to uh to explain what's going on.

1:12:53 Like, for example, in terms of visibility and and collectability, um the pioneers who minted NFTs during their lifetime, like Vera Molnar and Herbert Franke, um are well known, talked about a lot. Um, and some of the other pioneers, including even Suri, um are less well known and talked about by comparison, even though they're also um very important in the early days of of computer art.

1:13:28 Um so there is that uh dynamic, or even to add one more um artist collective to this list, uh the computer technique group CTG from Japan, um, I think most of them, if not all of them, are still alive. Um, and yet they're practically uh unknown to most people in the space, uh, but they're key pioneers.

1:13:57 Yeah, I was gonna touch on that. I think I think uh on on what Ivan said, I don't think that every pioneer who minted works uh is highly regarded. Um there's like pioneers like Gottfried Yeager who has minted uh works or Lee Mallikan who don't have the recognition or the spotlight that you know Vera or Herbert have.

1:14:22 I think it's also very regional. Like, you know, if you're based in Europe, you obviously know about artists like Frieder Nagie or Georg Nies uh and so and other Europeans, but you know, not many people, like Ivan said, know about CDG, and they are really important pioneers. Like the there's geographical barriers that don't allow uh some artists who deserve the spotlight to have the spotlight.

1:14:49 Uh and Japan is, for example, a region with like very heavy history in computer art. And most uh Westerners don't know about that, and it's a shame because you know they they are very important to the history of computer art. Um again, even even like some very interesting figures like uh like Knowlton, you know, most people in our space don't know who that is, you know.

1:15:18 Um so I think that the spotlight is set on three main artists, which is Vera Herbert and Charles. Uh I I would say maybe four, and then not maybe, for sure four, and I would add Harold Cohen to that, you know, let's say top four list, which I'm I'm not ranking them, and I'm not saying they're the best.

1:15:41 I'm just saying these four have the more the the you know more lights on them, more spotlights on them compared to everyone else. Um but I think that is changing slowly, slowly with again people doing work, people doing research, people um publishing that research or doing their own research. It's it's it's slowly changing, but there's still a lot of work to be done.

1:16:06 I won't complain because that means I can still find very cheap artworks, which should not be that cheap. Um but yeah.

1:16:15 And it's not it's sorry. I was gonna say uh to uh to add to this, that's why a release like Ordo is important, because if practically all of uh Charles Suri's work is physicals and plotters, they are not as readily collectible or visible, or in fact they're also very rare. Um but with a digital drop uh which is inherently displayed on screens, um I think that will add visibility and and and help a new generation of collectors and old artists.

1:17:01 Can I add something on that point? It's I think it's a good thing, like when when obviously Vera minted um in collaboration with Martin Grasser, you know, that collection, it obviously bolstered her her visibility in our space, but it it creates other problems as well. Her NFTs, which were you know a collection of I'm not sure if there were a thousand, but you know, there were a lot of pieces, and individually they were going for more money than one of ones made in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, which to me that is insane.

1:17:41 You you you understand like the problem that that gets created because in my mind these pieces are more valuable, provenance, historic. You know, every checklist they they they you know you check the box. But for some reason, which the reason is obviously crypto, euphoria, uh volatility, hype, and all that stuff, yeah.

1:18:03 Um, you know, those pieces were priced higher than you know, historic pieces, let's say, which to me, you know, is not something that should happen.

1:18:12 Yeah, although there's a qualification here, right? Like um Vera's work um in the in the previous decades, some of it is fairly prolific, and I've even heard of uh counterfeit works, believe it or not, on on works on paper like counterfeit plotters. Um while if you're buying an NFT, you have the provenance.

1:18:39 So there's something to be said about there being genuine interest in the NFT drops.

1:18:46 Of course. Someone could argue that uh you know the the the value of of uh Veras NFTs, not not all of Veras, but you know, that specific release with Martin, you know, shouldn't have been that that highly priced on the secondary market because it was a collaboration as well. It wasn't like purely Vera's art, which you know shouldn't command the same premium.

1:19:08 Because you know, I love Martin, I love his work. I have collected quite quite quite a bit from from his collections, but you know, great artists, but it it's not the same as Vera releasing a collection by herself.

1:19:26 Yeah, yeah.

1:19:28 Yeah, yeah, I I I agree with this, and and that's also the distinction I think with Ordo, in that Charles Surrey, uh, especially after he retired from Ohio State, has been known to use his own uh digital tools to create his art. So these are solo works by the artist.

1:19:58 I I I th I think it it has to do as well with the accessibility of NFTs. I I this is like you know, something I've been saying for years. It it's much easier, safer, efficient to buy an NFT than buy physical uh, you know, art piece that you know the moment yeah, and liquid a hundred percent. You know, the moment you sell it, the money's in your wallet, in your account.

1:20:21 So if I'm buying a physical piece, I have to deal with shipping, taxes. Uh it might get lost, it might get destroyed. I have re I have received multiple packages that are destroyed. Exactly, as well. You mean the s yeah? Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean it's it's a hundred percent more efficient and makes sense, you know, to to to acquire NFTs and sell NFTs and do, you know, the same thing for physical work.

1:20:50 So that did contribute a lot to it, for sure. I they they they are they are, but I think that happened after she passed away, not before, because I remember some people uh had criticized me for doing that, but I had minted um uh three, I think, um uh of her NFTs, and I sold one the day she passed away and I used all of those uh funds to acquire physical work from her.

1:21:27 Um because I I believe that there was a very big, you know, um uh a very big gap that is not justified between her NFT and her physical. Um but yeah. Yeah, yeah. But but definitely, you know, her prices did not jump uh up until her uh passing away, sadly.

1:21:56 Can I can I just ask one one last question? Janice, you were you were speaking about the role of collectors? Do you anticipate connect uh collectors or museums playing a bigger role going forwards um uh in digital with digital art specifically um when it comes to determining what how how the history books are written and and what art history Yeah, is it is it collectors or or museums who are gonna play a bigger role in um shaping who is considered to be really important going forwards?

1:22:30 Uh I think it's both. I think maybe collectors a bit more compared to traditional art. Um because you know, with with all these new digital art committees and councils and whatever they're called, every museum is is slowly uh forming one if they don't have one already. Shout out to those who have been working tirelessly to to push digital art, they know who they are.

1:22:57 I think we all know who they are. They have a red beard. Um but yeah, I I I think that uh you know collectors will play a big role in that. Um something I fear is collector bias, because there is, you know, um there it sometimes you know you you believe in something so much that you treat you know other artists a bit unfairly.

1:23:28 Um to the to an extent that has happened with with computer art where you know the love for specific artists has uh cast a shadow on on a few other artists, or because of something that many people don't know, but you know, computer art did have drama, artists did have uh you know fights and disagreements and even legal battles to an extent.

1:23:54 Um, and that has affected history as well. Like I think there's there's quite a few pioneers who deserve more of the spotlight and don't have it for various reasons, uh, including like maybe drama at the time. So I think it's our job to elevate these artists as well, not just focus on the top five, top ten.

1:24:16 Because, you know, the the last five years doing doing research on pioneers, I've realized there's like hundreds of pioneers. Uh it's not just uh or people who would you know fall under the category of of being uh early experimenters of computer art and and you know technology with art essentially. Um some of them I mentioned before, but there's but there's so many examples, and I think Ivan could could could name a few and and yeah.

1:24:49 Um yeah, I I think for the most part I I definitely agree with Janis that it's a combination of collectors and museums, but the pattern does seem to be, as he pointed out, that it's passionate collectors who are uh working with museums to uh to get the works into collections or to create exhibits and and make the the work more visible to the public.

1:25:20 And I expect that um that pattern to continue. And I also agree that there are a lot of um pioneers, uh, but as with any art movement, um some of them, even contemporary artists as well, will emerge as being more influential or or more kind of exemplary and iconic for that art movement. So for example, going back to traditional art, the cubist movement was big.

1:25:59 Um a ton of artists uh practiced uh Cubism, but by and large we know about Picasso, Braque, maybe Legère, but you know, there's kind of a steep drop-off there. So I do expect that uh as we do more research and as um museums acquire pieces, that some level of canonization of uh fewer rather than more names will probably happen.

1:26:34 But collectors who are passionate will have collections of of kind of broader names and more diverse, like um like Michael Spower or the Ragnar Digital Collection come to mind.

1:26:50 Yeah, I mean just to add on that, I think something that is also a bit overlooked are artists who are um you know not from the generation of the pioneers, uh, but a bit later, um, you know, spanning from Japan to North America, um, there's been you know countless artists, uh, for example, William Lathan.

1:27:16 I I might be butchering his name, I'm sorry. Um, but you know, others like you know John Whitney.

1:27:22 He lives just seniors just down the road from Leila.

1:27:26 Okay, that's crazy. But no wow, not super jealous, but yeah, but yeah, like Carl Sims and Akawaguchi, um, and even you know, more contemporary, like you know, Casey Reese, uh Mark Napier, uh John F. Simon. Like there's it's not just the the super early computer artists, it's it's Ragnar has also done a great job, and Georg uh have done a great job in in the sense of trying to map out that timeline.

1:28:06 Uh also I think uh Laurandum has done an incredible job on that as well. So great job to Lurandum and and and Peter. But I I think we we we should definitely not overlook the later, let's say, pioneers as well.

1:28:23 I don't know, I don't know about you, Leila, but but when Janice said that he's not an expert earlier, I mean that's obviously nonsense. I mean, I I've found so many times that I've been speaking to a museum person over the past few years and then have spoken to a collector who's just living and breathing all of this to such a greater extent for the fact that they are part of this community.

1:28:44 Um I don't know. I these days I give a lot more weight to what people like um Janice and Ivan. Yeah, I I don't I don't know. Maybe that's not the way looking at it, but I generally give more weight to um the people who are very deep embedded in this community and just say live and breather than many museum people.

1:29:08 Yeah, I I agree with you, Jamie. Um the one way I think about this is that the museum curator is a bit like a doctor who has many patients, meaning many artists and many artistic periods that they have to cover. But um the the collector is usually passionate about one or two or three uh or a small number of key artists that uh they collect deeply and they want to tell their story.

1:29:42 Yeah.

1:29:43 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I don't disagree per se, it's just you know, there's there's some people who work at museums or curators at museums who live through this as well. Um they might not be curators per se, but you know, that there's people um on the institutional level who have lived through this. So, you know, when you have a first first uh you know um first few account of of things, it it it's it's always great.

1:30:15 They might not remember everything by heart, like a super passionate collector who has been, you know, every day and every night been researching and getting educated on specific artists. For example, you know, Shamrock from our space is like the go-to person when it comes to Harold Cohen, for example.

1:30:32 Like I would rather go to him than to someone else to get you know from from market analysis to to you know historical analysis. So yeah, to an extent, I agree. But there's also some key figures that you know I would I would definitely want to chat with them for for hours and days about about all this stuff.

1:30:54 Makes sense. We could have gone off in so many directions, so deep in so many directions. So interesting to talk to you guys. Thank you so much. No, it was great.

1:31:05 Thank you.

1:31:07 Yeah, thank you, uh Leila, Jamie, Janus.

1:31:11 Yeah, great discussion. I'm sure it could have lasted way more hours.