Duck Soup - with John McKie – War Movie Theatre

Welcome to War Movie Theatre, where we're fighting for a woman's honour, which is probably more than she did. That's right, we're watching Duck Soup. My name's Rob Hutton, and I've been making a living out of wisecracks and ridiculous facial hair. With me is an obvious idiot who communicates through barely comprehensible toots and whistles.

Hello, Duncan Weldon. Hello, Rob. You could have tooted. It's why we need more rehearsing. And joining us is a smooth -talking scoundrel who may be plotting to swindle us out of everything before the hour is out. It's John McKee, former editor of Q and Smash Hits and now author of the comprehensive new Prince biography, A Sign of the Times. Hello, John. Good morning. That's two idiots. Please, don't leave me out of this.

I was trying to work out which idiot you should be. I mean, you should be... So, we're doing Duck Soup. The 1933 Marx Brothers classic, which I'm not even going to attempt to summarize the plot of, because I think that would be generous to the word plot. Johnny, you suggested this film. Yes. Yes, this is the best war film of all time. It's the best comedy of all time. Yeah, I mean, Harpo Marx dipping his feet in lemonade, manufacturer, seller. You don't get that in The Guns of Navarone. Is this a war film? Yes, very much so. Okay, is CNN right now a war film? I don't know. I mean, I suppose. I don't know.

Yeah, well, you know, Doug Soup's got many of those attributes in it right now, which is a thin -skinned leader who decides to take up a war on the whim of a hat with disastrous consequences, muddles through some sort of win at the end. Everyone's laughing at him. I mean, thank goodness nothing like that happens in the news anymore.

But that's the plot of Duck Soup. I mean, obviously, as we're going to discover, the Marx Brothers have not played a large part in my life. They've obviously played a large part in yours. Go on. How did you come across them? Well, I'm one of five children. All five of us love the Marx Brothers. So we don't agree on a lot, you know, if you're part of a big family. But I think about the age of eight. BBC Two used to show them early, you know, Christmas and a Saturday morning or something, didn't they? It's a shame they don't anymore.

And so we watched them and my parents said, oh, you'll like this. This is funny. And they were absolutely right. And I watched it this week, in fact, to sort of see if I still find it funny. And as you know, with lots of comedies of your youth, sometimes you watch them when you're a bit older and you say, hmm, it was funny at the time. You know, that was funny before I learned how to shave. You know, since we're talking about facial hair. But, you know, I found, you know, I'm in my 50s now when I was the age of eight and I pretty much watched Duck Soup. It's my favorite ever film with Goodfellas by Martin Scorsese. I can't really split them, but it's one of the two films I will put on if I'm in

a bad mood or a bit sad and it will cheer me up, which tells you how much I like about homicidal maniacs, I guess. You know, leaving Goodfellas aside, Duck Soup has every aspect of comedy. So obviously, if you value that kind of slapstick of Harold Lloyd, It's in here with the Marx Brothers. It's in here with Harpo. It's in here with Groucho.

If you value, you know, sticking it to the man, as you might call it, that Charlie Chaplin has and that bravery that he has where he's taking a pot at establishments. I mean, Groucho Marx has got that in spades. I mean, this is a man that said, if you don't like my principles, I have others. You know, which, let's face it, he could be a number 10 with that attitude, couldn't he? No, he said, these are my principles. Sorry, I've butchered his quote. He said, these are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. You know, there's so many wisecracks in this film, and Chico as well says so many funny things. And what you've got with the Marx Brothers is you've got a through line from vaudeville

right up to Curb Your Enthusiasm. So Robert Wewida, who is the guy, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, he's the director of a lot of the episodes of Curb Your Enthusiasm. He made a short film about the Marx Brothers. He adores the Marx Brothers. They're part of the reason for his comedy. Judd Apatow, the same. He watched Duck Soup when he was 10, and he was hooked. He decided that's what he wanted to do. Adam Sandler used to be woken up by his dad at one in the morning because he was laughing at the Marx Brothers. So you've got all that comedy right up to the current day.

But then the Marx Brothers with their mum, they were tutored and grew up in vaudeville, which, you know, vaudeville is that whole establishment of all sorts of different songs. And that's what could be seen as dated with Duck Soup. But I think if you just go with it, it isn't. You know, where there's the spirituals, there's songs, you know, in most of the Marx Brothers movies.

Chico plays the piano, Harper plays the harp. You don't get Jim Carrey doing that, do you? Or Amy Schumer. Unless there's an Amy Schumer film I missed with Goldie Hawn where they both do it. So you've got that sense in Vaudeville where the movies were just starting and we had to find a way to entertain all the audiences.

So you've got that versatility. They sit at that point where cinema hasn't quite worked out what cinema is, but... There's this other very popular art form, which is vaudeville or a music hall. And well, what if we put that rather than just touring bands? We'll film them and then we can put it in every cinema at once. No, I hadn't seen it. I didn't know. I knew very little about this film. In fact, I watched it pretty much blind this week. And I'm really... I'm really not very familiar with the Marx Brothers. I know who the Marx Brothers are. I can give you some quotes from the Marx Brothers. I've seen clips here and there. But I'm not sure, to be honest, I'd ever sat down and watched from start to finish

a Marx Brothers film before last night. It's something of a blind spot. So, you know, I'm not sure I've ever watched a Buster Keaton movie. I have watched a Charlie Chaplin movie, but not for a very long time. I've seen bits of Laurel and Hardy, and this whole sort of very early cinema comedy is something of a blind spot for me. I mean, so my childhood had a lot of Laurel and Hardy, quite a lot of Harold Lloyd, a reasonable amount of Chaplin, and absolutely no Marx Brothers at all. And what I know about the Marx Brothers, I have picked up entirely sort of... from memes for want of a better word you know they're just sort of second hand well that guy must be Groucho right and so I know all of these Groucho quotes

and many of which are it turned out to be in this film but no I did try and watch Duck Soup I think about 20 years ago I have a memory of it being when one of the boys was quite small and just to be honest I found it incomprehensible isn't quite the right word But certainly I think it was not sufficiently compelling that I thought, I just thought, I don't really know what's going on here and I have other things to do. I go and change a nappy or something and I never came back to it. And so, yeah, no. So this for me has also been, revelation isn't quite the right word, but it's been peering around the curtain at something that I simply didn't know about.

And I think that lack of familiarity, you know, I think. You were both talking about, you know, this is the very early days of cinema still. And there is this idea of we can take what's happening in musicals of vaudeville and put it on put it on screen. But I think I mean, I very much respect an audience in the early 1930s was very familiar with that medium, very familiar with the stocks and tropes of that medium and sort of watching it approaching 100 years later.

If you're not steeped in that tradition, it's quite a weird experience, I think. It doesn't feel like any other film we've done. I mean, to start with, it's by far the shortest film we've done. Yes. You're welcome. Oh, no, no. Very grateful. We did Apocalypse Now last week. On average, we're doing two -hour films. Yeah.

But, you know, we're just not used to a film which lasts, what, 65 minutes or whatever it is anymore. Yeah, 68, yeah. You wouldn't put that out in the cinema nowadays, whereas it sort of works in this case. I mean, in fact, it's lots of firsts. So I wondered if this was the earliest film we've done on the podcast. I think actually All Quiet on the Western Front is 1930, but it's definitely probably the second earliest we've done. I think it predates Charge of the Light Brigade, which we did. earlier this a few weeks ago 36 it's definitely the shortest we've done it's almost certainly going to be the first time possibly ever that a podcast about a movie is longer than the actual movie which i'd give

you decent odds on this happening i think some of our american cousins produce podcasts episodes longer than the actual movie i can tell you the first explicit comedy we've done i think it probably is i won't be the last there are others you know but i'd also say i'd also say and this is the bolder claim the bigger claim i think this is the least war movie theater movie we have done and we have done bed knobs and broomsticks i so i did actually spend about 25 minutes of this quite short film thinking has Johnny misunderstood the basis of the podcast. Has he just told us a film that he likes? And am I going to have to phone him and say, no, it's got to have a war. It's got to have something war related in

it. And then it became clear that we were going to get a war. There is a war. I realized that at least one listener, I think probably more than one listener, had told us to put it on the list. So there is. Someone out there thinks this is a war movie theater. And it is, clearly. It is, in fact. I think I am no longer troubled.

I was more troubled by bed knobs and broomsticks, I think. I think this absolutely is a war movie. And I agree with you. I think it's a politically important film. Yes. I think it's... Well, some of this is conclusion. It's important that it comes out in 1933. Because things are happening in 1933, as those of us who did GCSE history will dimly recall. Duncan, what's happening in 1933? Hitler's coming to power. Yes. Hitler has just come to power when this comes out. Mussolini's been in charge a while. Yeah. Mussolini does not like this film. No. Fancy that. No, he banned it in Italy, didn't he? You can imagine how the Marx Brothers felt about that. Maybe we should talk about how the Marx Brothers come to be the

Marx Brothers. Johnny, you started off on this. So they're on stage. Their mother has put them on stage. The mother has put them on stage. It's the early days of vaudeville. I think the early days of vaudeville, my knowledge of vaudeville is not that extensive. But they go down a storm. It's the early days of the movie. Theaters Paramount have them on a contract. Monkey Business, which is their 1932 movie, was the biggest grossing film. that year for paramount so they were massive and their first film is one of the first talkies yes that's right yeah and this is this is how you did it in the late 20s early 30s if you were a parent with a large family you thought were entertaining you got them on stage and then on

film whereas you know nowadays you would force them to take part in a long -running youtube series in the hope people would send you free things and eventually there would be a a Netflix investigation into your abuse of parenting techniques. Yeah, I mean, that's basically who Mother Marks is, isn't she? She's the Netflix family self publicist of her age. Yeah. We got some art out of it. Yeah, that's probably the most interesting thing is that, you know, Mrs. Marks, Minnie Marks, I think it was her name, and Leo McCary, who's the director of this film, and I think one of the first people to put Laurel and Hardy together, is my understanding. they're two of the people that actually got them in line. And Rob, I don't

know how many other Marx Brothers films you've seen. I have seen no other Marx Brothers films. Okay. Believe it or not, there is more of a sense of order in Duck Soup than there is in most of the other Marx Brothers films. So there is more anarchy in the other films. There is less plot in the other films. There is less organized chaos and certainly just more old -fashioned chaos in the other Marx Brothers films. But one of the things that's interesting about Liam McKerry directing this film is there is a bit of a plot.

There is a bit of a semblance of order to it. And you'll see that when you see the other Marx Brothers movies. So, I mean, yes, they've become... I did do my Marx Brothers research last night. It's all very bits of their career a bit accidental. They discover sort of accidentally that... that Groucho actually people like Groucho's jokes and so they become a they become a joke rather than a singing group and this kind of thing and yes they well McCary I think I think didn't want to direct you know sort of didn't really want to direct this and because he he was not used to dealing with this no if you look at his if you look at his career there's a whole lot of very serious films I was just trying to see if

he'd done any little war movies but he did some big sweeping romantic I excited this and you Google him. The film that I have seen that he did is an affair to remember. That's right. That's his most famous film. Yeah. I'm probably more famous than this. Interesting question now, but yeah, it's, it's certainly it's, it's that's, that's Cary Grant and that's, that's post -war.

And he also makes a Cary Grant film called the awful truth, which I feel like I must've seen about a couple who are, it's one of the Hollywood couples, comedies of remarriage. They're trying to divorce, but really they love each other. that kind of thing which again is a much that's a that is as it were a film with a story yeah and i think that was remade with jerry butler which tells you how wonderful that remake is but even if he has a score but yeah this book that i've got here which i read years ago and i should have reread in preparation for this podcast but i'm ashamed to say i didn't it's called hail hail euphoria and it's the whole film as you saw is they sing hail hail free donia and we'll talk about in a minute But it's by

Roy Blunt Jr. And that basically talks about how Leo McCary, not Leo McCary, yeah, he had to be dragooned into directing because he didn't want to. And nobody could keep this lot in order. But then that's part of the appeal. You know, if you like the Marx Brothers, and I do, I adore them, which makes one of us, I know. But lots of people in comedy love the Marx Brothers. I mean, I can't believe that Mel Brooks doesn't love the Marx Brothers. But, you know, as I said, Robert B. White, he did a direct cover of Woody Allen. loads of people, you know, Judd Apatow.

And part of the reason that people love them is they stick it to the man. You know, if we are going to talk about the plot of Duck Soup, if you would like to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's essentially Groucho's in charge, but really he's irreverent to everyone above and below him. You know, the whole, the plot of Duck Soup, such as it is, is that he accidentally becomes president of this republic called Fredonia. And there's a... Admiral Trentino of Slovenia basically finds a way to pick a fight with him so that he can have a war that nobody needs. Which is why it's, you know, it's very 2026 really in some respects.

Yeah. And then just, you know, hilarity and you've got Chico and Harpo, who are two of the brothers, two of the Marx brothers, are almost double agents where they're working for both sides initially. And then they come on board with Groucho. But, you know, that doesn't really matter. No, no, it is essentially, I mean, so McCary, who is used to making things with stories, is sort of...

Who's trapped by narratives and can't really see the vision. Yes, and also trapped by the studio because he wants to leave and they say, no, no, you're contracted, you are going to make the film. But the way that he makes it work is essentially he says, right, well, we will just film them. You know, we will... film these guys doing their thing and we will put it together and we will make it work. And it has to be, I mean, it's interesting that it does work. I mean, this film has this strange kind of life where it bombs on release. The Paramount dump the Marx Brothers, who then go to... And their previous film has been a massive hit for Paramount, hasn't it? It's the biggest smash of that year of Paramount.

Yeah. And, but this is a bomb. So they, and I think Paramount's in financial trouble. So the Marx Brothers, you know, the question about whether they're getting paid and this kind of thing, they go to MGM where Irving Thalberg says, what you lads need is story and subsequent. So I think a day of the races is the next one. And then at that point, it's right. No, there will be a story. There will be a narrative arc and the story will involve other people, straight people, as it were. And then you guys go and do your wacky things around them. And that becomes a successful Marx Brothers formula for MGM. I think that purists, though, then this film sort of, so it's neglected in the 30s, but it gets a second

life in the 60s when people are starting to look at, okay, what were they doing and so on. And now this is, I think, the American Film Institute. rates this highest of all the Marxist films because it's anarchic, because it's chaotic. And the other crucial thing about it being a 1933 film is it's pre -code, which we talked when we did All Quiet on the Western Front that that's a pre -code film. You're allowed to see unmarried people clearly wanting to go to bed with each other and having gone to bed with each other.

This is one of the last pre -code films. And there are jokes in here about the fact that... the code is coming. But it's not even just the sex. It's the fact that you're allowed to mock authority. I mean, another big bit of the Hays Code was you're not supposed to mock people in authority. All of this film is mocking people in authority. And everyone in authority. I was reminded back in my Bloomberg days, we did a very successful Lego movie about the... general election in about 2015 and when the next election came around which was quite soon after that i i said shall we do it again and they said no this is new york said no you shouldn't do that because it's disrespectful and we it was disrespectful

to politicians and we didn't like it and people in britain loved it The politicians loved it. I'm sure, Rob, they actually said it is disrespectful to lawmakers, to use the Bloomberg term for them. So there's this idea that you should be respectful to politicians in America and particularly in the Hays Code. So this is, as it were, I mean, you say this has got more structure. There's a way in which this is kind of the real Marx Brothers id. Yeah. I'm curious. So I suspect the Marx Brothers generally have a higher sort of, you know, a longer lasting footprint on the other side of the Atlantic than here. I'm sure they do. And I suspect this film, my memory of this film, so I watched it for the first time

this week. I have actually Googled this film extensively before and it all came back to me this week. So there is. An episode of the West Wing called Fredonia, which would have been broadcast in 2005 or 6. And I remember what I was living in a flat in Brixton at the time. I can do one of those ones when you can remember where you were. And it is filled with references to this film. And that led to a long evening afterwards for me on Google and probably early Wikipedia.

trying to work out just what I'd just seen and how it related to the plot. So, you know, I feel the fact that the West Wing could have an episode which is sort of filled with references to this suggests that, you know, Aaron Sorkin at least believed people would know what he was talking about. I think all Americans know who the Marx Brothers are. I think it's a, you know, I'm quite certain that my children have absolutely no idea at all. I... I have, as I say, sort of a meme level understanding of the Marx Brothers, but the only Marx Brother. I could have named Harpo just because I remembered the name, but I couldn't tell you anything about Harpo. Groucho I could tell you about because, you know, literally the

moustache and the glasses and so on, the Groucho Marx. In fact, my kids will have a Groucho Marx outfit somewhere in their long -neglected dressing up books because we all have one of those, right? But I couldn't have told you. Whereas, as I say, I could hum the Harold Lloyd theme tune right now, Zorro's Fighting Legion I can do, the black and white Flash Gordon. It's entirely about what was on sort of Saturday morning and after school telly when I was a kid. And I just don't think, obviously they were for you, Johnny, but they just weren't for me. Oh, well, they should be.

I mean, it's not for everyone. And maybe I was the right age at age eight to see it. But I've never stopped finding it funny. In my teens, I find it funny. In my 20s, I find it funny. And I've watched it every couple of years. To be absolutely clear, I find it funny. It's a great thing to watch with a family of five because there's things like Toy Story, there's jokes for adults and there's jokes for four -year -olds.

Whereas you can't watch, going back to the other film mentioned, you can't watch Goodfellas with a family of five and young children. Just no more. It's going for it. I mean, yeah, there are lovely stories about making this. There is a town in upstate New York called Fredonia who complain about this. And of course... Groucho Marx telegraphs him back to say, no, no, change the name of your town. It's hurting our movie.

He was that kind of person. It's that kind of film. Yeah, no, I love that. You know, and it reminded me, that story reminded me of the Tom Stoppard, Harold Pinter, you know, where the comedy theater in Panton Street was going to be renamed, was renamed the Harold Pinter Theater. And being the kind of happy -go -lucky chap that he was, Pinter wasn't thrilled about this. And Tom Stoppard was whistling at the time. He said, well, why don't you change your name to Sir Harold Comedy then? It's a good joke. Which is kind of ironic given that Tom Stoppard's now at a theatre named after him. But yeah. But that was, you know, that was grouchy. I mean, that was grouchy. You know, I think I'd be very surprised

if the Pythons weren't big fans of the Mars Brothers. Oh, yeah, no, I'm sure. You know, because there's a funny story about, and I can't remember who it was, who would have been the most anarchic of the Pythons. They were with the group, the Cincinnati, and the mayor of Cincinnati took offense. And he said, don't you know who I am?

And he walked around the whole room saying, this poor man doesn't know who he is. You know, that seems very grouchy to me that, you know, the story about freedom. There's a way in which this is actually, rather than an hour long film, this is really a series of sketches. Absolutely. That really came across to me when I was watching it. And seen like that, in a way, I think it's, I did have difficulty to this film and most of my difficulties in this film are that when I sit down and watch a film, I really, really want a plot. My brain is now completely programmed in a way, as you say, I don't think that 1930s audiences are going to a Mark Brothers film, know exactly what they're going to get and they're

familiar with vaudeville and they're familiar with the idea that basically these guys will come on stage for an hour and they will do a series of funny things and you'll laugh your head off. And then they'll go and you don't expect, you know, that there will have been an adventure in it or something. Whereas I cannot shake the part of me that said, no, well, right. So who's the hero here? Who's the protagonist? Who's the antagonist? What's going on? I know that makes me sound very basic. You know, they managed okay without Joseph Campbell. It's okay. But I mean, I don't think that's entirely fair to them because you look at most comedies. or most action movies, they are just a series of set pieces. You know,

like, what do people get excited about in an action movie? They get excited about when the truck blew up or when someone punched them in the face or when they kissed a girl. You know, Airplane, right? Do you go to Airplane for the plot? No, that's true. No, no. Well, okay, but I think that's, I think that, I mean, basically what I'm saying is I think that Thalberg and MGM were right, that you need something. You need a piece of thread to hang these sketches on. I mean, I did. I laughed out loud a lot watching this. That's good. And there is a lot, and I was watching it again last night, and I was laughing again. I just, you know, and a lot of it I found, you know, a lot of the best bits of it, I thought,

oh, I know this joke, I know this joke, I know this, you know, literally almost my problem was there are so many lines in this that I could have quoted. Leave in a half, leave in a minute and a half. Let us, on that note, go to the After Action Report. Quick, Dad. They're in the cable car. I mean, it really is a series of sketches.

And also, it's very short. I would like to say that at the start, the thing I wasn't expecting and did very much enjoy, Duncan, was the bondholders taking over the government of a country somewhere small in Europe. I thought Duncan would enjoy this bit. I did, I did, I did, I did. Yeah, I mean, it's a hard one for cable car moments, isn't it? I mean, it's not a cable car movie, a phrase I find myself saying quite a lot. I mean, it's interesting. So it's interesting.

So it's 1933, but it's not a film about Hitler. And as much as it's a film about anyone real, it's a film about Mussolini, isn't it? I mean, he's been in power for... longer by this point but it's sort of set in a sort of fictional i mean i think of the sort of more central eastern europe the marxists are they are born in america but they are a german jewish family yeah right they and it's it's some sort of going on yeah they are some sort of post hapsburg countries that were part of the austro -hungarian empire and are now small independent european countries you know it could be czechoslovakia or it could be Also, it's somewhere in the general middle Europa, isn't it? It is the broad setting. But

I do feel, you know, Rob's right. The plot is just a vehicle to get you from sketch to sketch. And that's fine. And some of the sketches are really good. So I don't know. So it's less cable car moments, isn't it? And more, which sketches do you call people into watch because you think they'll really enjoy? I mean, and he's short.

Johnny, pick your favorite bits. I mean, the mirror scene, that's been pastiched and everything from Disney to Family Guy to Lucille Ball as well did it. But there's so many. I mean, I disagree with you guys a little actually, maybe because I've seen it more than 50 times. But for me, it's of a piece. And, you know, to your point about it being short is what I did after I watched it this week was I watched Horse Feathers, which is 70 minutes as well. So a lot of cinemas now just do a double bill amongst other films and put two on one after another. And that sort of works. So you get your money's worth. But yeah, in terms of favorite scenes, I think every time that Groucho's on the screen, he lights up and,

you know, I'm just laughing. But what I love about it is, you know, Chico makes me laugh, Harpo makes me laugh in a different way with the lemonade scene. All the scenes with Edgar Kennedy. So one of the reasons that Duck Soup is my favorite Marx Brothers film is that Edgar Kennedy and Margaret Dumont are both in it. So Edgar Kennedy is the lemonade seller. And he's basically the straight man stooge who gets under, Harpo gets under his skin. And so Harpo stands in his lemonade booth and sits far to his hat and does all sorts of things. And I did a bit of research on him. And his nickname as an actor was Slow Burn. Because, you know, you would just get madder and madder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get angrier and angrier until he exploded. And, you

know, that's fun watching someone pompous do that in real life as well as on the screen. And the other person that was in it, who's a kind of straight person, is Margaret Dumont. I want to come back to her, actually. Okay. We've got a category for her. Yeah, but for me, you know, if I had to watch, it's 68 minutes. You very happily sit and watch this. And if you've not seen it, I think people should sit and watch it. It's a really interesting and at times very fun film. But, you know, the three scenes for me are, yeah, I mean, the lemonade vendor, the mirror, again, the mirror, you know, rising past each so many times, and the bit towards the, after that, where Groucho, this is war when Groucho

manages to talk himself into the war. I think all three of those hold up really well. And you could probably just watch a video of each of those on YouTube. And I think that's, to me, That, to me, is the fundamental definition that this is at one level a sketch show, that you can take these three, four, five minute bits and watch them as standalone pieces of media and enjoy them. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all fine. The best bit is basically from the moment they break into Mrs. Teasdale's. I just think all of the sketches after that, I think are really good. The bits in Mrs. Teasdale's. bedroom which again you're not you're not getting that you know a year later where you've got sort of people

jumping into a bed and out of a bed and hiding under her bed and and it's all very deftly done and and then as you say this amazing mirror scene where where groucho and harpo are mirroring each other and it's it's it that took a lot of work obviously and it It's marvelously done, and as you say, it's been endlessly copied since then, but it's incredibly hard to do. As I say, I just sat and watched it again last night, and it just holds you because it's so compelling. At the same time, as I was watching it last night, I thought, the way that I find a film uncinematic is that they basically just put a camera there and filmed them doing this. There's no music over the top. The camera doesn't move, except

when they want to do cuts, because obviously it took a couple of takes to get it right. It does feel like, at some level, they said, well, this is funny on stage. We're going to put a camera here and film it. And now, you know, when they do the National Theatre Live or whatever, where they literally pipe plays into cinemas, they understand that the camera has... The cinema audience does not want to sit and look at something in a way that the theatre audience will obviously sit there and look at the whole stage for three hours very happily. The cinema audience wants a close -up on Hamlet or whatever as he's pondering whether to be or not. Do you know what I mean about it being uncinematic? Yeah. It's literally

just a silent... It's sort of three minutes of silence and this amazing bit of physical comedy. There's a lot going on. There's stuff in bedrooms. There's stuff. No, no, no. I just mean that. I'm sorry. Specifically, the mirror scene seems to me an example of this is 1933. They've been making pictures for less than 20 years, really.

They're just sort of working out, you know, as it were. I think if you said, I think, you know, if Jim Carrey said, I'm going to do a mirror scene. in my next film the director of photography is not sitting there saying oh well that's five minutes i won't have to do anything flick the camera running and go and make a cup of tea he will he will be thinking how am i going to shoot this to fully convey what's going on while also sort of allowing you to see the technical artistry of the performers and so on whereas here plonk plonk the camera down yeah Let him do it. And there's that other famous scene, I think it's Night of the Opera, I don't know if you can probably see it on YouTube, where they're moving things

out of cupboards and clothes out of cupboards. It's gone viral as well. And that's the same kind of comedic set piece as well. But you're right, there's lots of films that are not uniquely that cinematic, but work, you know. Yeah. Then the final scene, the scene that justifies us talking about it here, well... sequence, the war sequence, where Groucho works his way through a series of costumes and a large number of very silly things that really wouldn't happen in a war. No. Although, you know, again, maybe in Pete Hegsworth's military. Yeah, you say that.

How often did you think of the current president while watching it? Yes, I take your point. I mean, I watched, you know, as I said, I haven't seen it in a few years. And so watching it the other night and the pettiness and the fights and the cost to the country because of an emotional whim, it all felt very familiar to me. I think, again, I think my problem with it was, and this is going to sound really stupid, we'll get emails, because I just didn't know what to expect. I was expecting that we were going to get a heroic sort of Rufus T. Firefly arc at some level, that he was going to be redeemed at some point. And he wasn't, because he's just awful. And they're all just awful. All the characters in it are,

I mean, they're lovely. Do you think so? I mean, there's no hero in this. They're all... They're all in it for themselves. They're rather like the current US administration. No one is heroic. They're all just sort of out to get what they can get and changing their minds and ratting on each other. And, you know, I think my brain was sitting there going, well, hang on a minute.

Hang on a minute. This is actually a forward thinking film because, you know, if you look at Tony Soprano and the anti -hero and, you know. You know, the movies of the 70s and the 80s, the kind of classic indies. You know, I think of Groucho as a hero in this film. You know, he's the protagonist. You know, is he the wisest man in the world? Perhaps not. You know, is he the most sage man in the world? No. But, you know, the anti -hero, which is a big part of, you know, modern narrative. You know, I think the Marx Brothers fall into that, actually, which is the... I don't think there's any doubt that you're on their side. Yeah. I think I would, I think I will enjoy it more watching it again because I will not, because my, my brain will

not be sitting there sort of trying, trying to, years ago, we took our kids to see the play that goes wrong. And at the interval, my older boy was perplexed. And he said, I'm trying to work out who did the murder. And I said to him, no, you don't, you really. You don't need to worry about who did the murder. It's fine. That is not, you're not here to understand who did the murder. You're here to enjoy the play going wrong.

Oh, right. You know, and he was, you know, he now enjoys it much more because he had gone in thinking, because we hadn't told them what to expect, thinking I'm watching a murder mystery. And so the body, and there are clues. And that matters. Yeah, and that matters. And you have to say to him, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is not what, this does not matter. And I think I will enjoy it a second time more because in a sense I can say to my brain, it doesn't matter.

Just enjoy it. Yeah, but also you talk about the tropes and the tricks of modern cinema. I mean, I saw the new Aaron Sorkin Facebook movie. I don't know if you've seen it, but there's this swirling music right at the end of it. And I thought, oh, something dramatic is meant to be happening. Oh, it didn't feel like it had happened.

It was like it hadn't earned the music. I do know what you mean. It's kind of refreshing with the Mars Brothers. It's just like, okay, here's some anarchy on the screen. Bam, let's go. You know, I'd rather they were doing cinema than, you know, Groucho was doing quiz shows at the end of his life. And obviously being very witty and funny on screen. But, you know, actually for it to be captured in cinema is much better.

Yeah. And, you know, you can't deny the influence. I mean, I'm here to make the case for them, but, you know, you can't deny the influence on things like the Pythons and Mel Brooks. And Bugs Bunny. And Bugs Bunny. And you know that Alice Cooper used to go around to Groucho Marx's house at one in the morning in Beverly Hills and watch telly. And so Alice Cooper with a snake on stage.

That's a direct result of conversations about vaudeville late night with Groucho Marx. So even modern rock shows that have got lots of dark insanity to them. I don't deny the influence for a single second. You're absolutely right. I mean, if you want to make the case that Prince was influenced by the Marx Brothers, this is the moment to do it. Well, I wondered if you were going to ask me about this. Yeah, no, I think the only thing is that Prince was into flipping the birds. Prince and his record company did not go on Princeton like authority. And the Marx Brothers the same. So, and they were probably both nightmares to manage. You know, you made a point about Paramount saying goodbye to them

in 1933 after this movie. I don't think it was just about the commercial success of this movie. I think having these guys in the lot would be, you know, hard work. So, and I think Prince the same. You know, I felt a lot of sympathy when I did the Prince book about... Warner Brothers and how they, you know, I want to do a triple album. No, you don't. And he's like, yes, I do.

And, you know, they turned into Double, which ended up being his masterpiece. So it worked out okay. But, you know, it was the same principle where just keeping Prince in line, keeping the Marx Brothers in line. But that's also why, that's why I love them as well. You know, I love the anarchy. I love the sense of just mischief. And as you said, the story about Fredonia kind of sums them up. You know the story in his deathbed, don't you? Go hit it. Apparently, Prince's last words, this could be apocryphal, but on his deathbed, this is no way to live. Which is up there with, you know, Spike Milligan wanting his tombstone.

I told you I was ill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And the anarchy, if you have expectations of what you're going to get, the sort of the kind of artist who just completely said no no i'm gonna do i did no that's that was that was what i did last time i'm doing something completely different this time is it's very difficult and you can see it's very difficult for a a record company or a film company who like no no we are a business we're a production line and uh and you are not you know you are not giving us product in the way that we yeah the way that we want yeah but also there's another link about prince and the mars brothers i'll come to in a minute but that's not why i picked it for this it wasn't

an excuse to plug my book honestly but it's also that thing of where somebody does a hit and the record company or the studio doesn't have the imagination to sort of go okay do that again and artists want to repeat themselves but under the cherry moon which is prince's very famous flop after purple rain The demos for the music were known as the Marks Brothers Project because he was trying to do a whimsical black and white comedy. So he was a fan too. And if you look at Under the Cherry Moon, it's kind of funny in a different way. But, you know, lots of Prince fans really love it, actually. But, you know, the rest of the world is scratching their head.

And even the Marks Brothers can have that reaction. Some of this stuff can be re -evaluated. As I say, if you'd ask someone in 1940 about Duck Soup, they would not have rated it. Very much. Yeah, it is now regarded as their masterpiece, and it took sort of 40, 50 years to get to that point. She's not so dumb. Are there women in this film? There are women in this film, and this is the moment to talk about Margaret DeMont.

Well, yeah, there's two women. There's Raquel Torres, who is, you know... what would be very old -fashionedly called the glamour piste. Would anyone ever say that again, ever? I hope not. And she's the object of desire. And then Margaret de Molten is like the grand dame. And probably what you would say is if you look at, you know, Glenda Jackson with Morecambe and Wise, it's that kind of dynamic where the brothers will just kind of goof around her. And, you know, there's a wonderful scene at the end of the film, spoiler alert, where... You know, they're throwing, I think it's oranges at the baddies. This is that kind of war. You know, it's not, this is not the film. We'll come to the body count. Don't

worry. This is not a cast from Bigelow, Jessica, Chastain. But they're throwing oranges at the soldiers. And then Margaret de Monts starts singing in the turnaround and starts throwing oranges at her. And she is, I mean, some of the lines that are her expense in this film are hilarious. Yes. She's in a lot of Marx Brothers movies.

She starts with them on stage. She is an important part of the formula. Absolutely. But she also doesn't, you know, even in movies, even with all the editing that comes in, you still see stars, even in things like, you know, the Anchorman movies, whatever, you still see some of the co stars breaking. And she's perfect for that because she does look like she's got no sense of humor.

Now, obviously, for her to have worked with him for that long. She obviously had very good sense of humour. So Groucho claimed that she never got any of the jokes, but I think that was Groucho being Groucho because she gave an interview where she said that the thing that she had to do in the films was work out where the cinema audience was going to be laughing and give time in her straight woman response for the audience to laugh so that... So the next line that the scriptwriters had written didn't get drowned out when the film was written. So she very clearly understood both actually what they were doing, because obviously you have to get the jokes to work out where the laugh is. But also, because she'd been on stage

with them, she's grasped that this cinema thing, you had to imagine the audience and give... Again, you feel like now that's something that directors and writers understand much better. But then she felt it was her job as a performer just to slow things down after a joke so that people could react so that it wouldn't get lost. I mean, I found myself thinking watching this that one of the things that I had lost watching it on my own at home. is that this is a film that is meant to be watched communally. Yes, yes. This is something that would not have occurred to them that anyone would ever watch this alone.

You know, this is to be watched with several hundred people who have come to the movies. Yeah. And then all comedy is funnier when you're in a group. That's why canned laughter happens. Well, it's funny you say that because, yeah, as I said, I'm one of five. And one of the things I did in the middle of the movie is I did watch it this week, but I missed my siblings. So they were all family chatting. Oh, I like this part of the film. Of course, this is better. And, you know, I love Harpo. No, I love Greg Cho.

And, you know, so we ended up having a nice communal experience over the telephone. With a podcast that brings people together. That's right. Yeah. I don't know. And it was honestly, it was such a, that's why I. you know, suggested it to you because I thought I'll get to watch this again and then I'll get to talk about it. And it's, I think the Marx Brothers are seriously, seriously, I don't know if they're underrated because I think any giant of American comedy will tip the hat to them. You know, I would be surprised if Will Ferrell didn't know all about them. I think if you're an American, I do think it's about what was on TV. Literally. I just, I sort of think that somebody, The BBC in the 1980s wasn't

a Marx Brothers fan, but was a Harold Lloyd fan and was a Laurel and Hardy fan. And that's why I know Laurel and Hardy and Harold Lloyd, but I don't know the Marx Brothers. And I assume that in the States, that was not an issue. Yeah, and I think they show old musicals now, but they don't show old comedies. Musicals probably date less badly than comedies. But, you know, to your point about Margaret Dumont, just to go back to that a little bit, it's like music, actually.

You know, she understood that there are beats, you know, and again, there are beats and a rhythm and things like funk and soul and DJing. It's all about that pause and build up before the release. And, you know, comedy, you've got to be a master of the timing in comedy. And she's definitely underrated. Yes, I really think she is. And I think Groucho's point that she doesn't have a sense of humor, he has to say that because it hurts the family business if he admits otherwise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think even, you know, in a weird way, the joke in the films is she doesn't get the jokes. She never understands, you know, she never understands what anyone is saying to her. So she's never even offended when he's rude to her because she just doesn't get it. And you just have to carry that joke on.

But yeah, no, very clearly. Because if you had a straight woman who literally didn't understand what you were all doing, you'd find a straight woman who did, wouldn't you? So she's absolutely crucial to this. The casualty list. Some people get some fruit thrown at them. It could have been quite painful. Poor Margaret again. Are you saying they're not weapons of mass destruction?

It's a movie body count of zero, I believe. This, although, you know, Groucho does fire a Thompson gun out of the window randomly at his own soldiers. He's told he's shooting his own soldiers. I don't think fatalities were, for the scriptwriters, were a priority. No, no, that's the one bit of the, you know, in a funny way, that's the one bit of the code they didn't mind. Well, they say dying is easy, comedy is hard. Is that the phrase? They were focused on the comedy. They deserve credit for that. But yes, it's a comedy.

So, I mean, how many people die in hot shots par deux? I don't know. When we do it, we'll... Is there a gratuitously American character in this? I don't think there is. I don't know. There is sort of in a funny way. Maybe Edgar Kennedy. Maybe his character, the lemonade salesman. Yeah. But not an American character in terms of, yeah, misunderstanding war, which is presumably your, you guys' context. And introducing, who's in this in a tiny part? I've got one. Do you? Do you? I looked and I couldn't find one. So Leonid Akinsky, who plays the Sylvanian agitator, who briefly, he's being berated. by the ambassador towards the beginning for having failed to provoke a revolution. Sort of a legend? He is Sasha the

bartender in Casablanca. Okay, I'll give you that. Because I love you. That's his great line. Somebody pointed it out. When somebody points it out, you go, oh, yes, that's the same guy. Well done. Casablanca is a legendary film, even if he's in quite a small role in that. Apparently, that was his whole career was playing sort of Russians in small parts. There is no best death, I think. On the other hand, best memes. Oh, loads.

Loads and loads. I didn't even. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't done my usual check of doing a search for GIFs, but I imagine there are. Oh, I did. I did. There's lots. There's lots. And the bit where they're dancing, Harper's dancing, which is also at the end of Hannah and Her Sisters. Do you remember that? So Woody Allen's character in Hannah and Her Sisters is miserable. and goes to the cinema to cheer himself up. And it's the scene where they're cutting things off, they're playing the violin and it's the army. And, you know, Woody Allen cheered himself up and his life was great after that. I think the mirror scene is fantastic. I think the mirror scene is literally, is properly a meme. You know, it's

been copied and pastiched in all sorts of different stuff ever since. But yeah, no, I mean, as with best lines, you could just sit here. For people who haven't seen it, it is actually worth watching simply to see where all of these lines come from. Although you don't massively need the context, I feel, because most of them are just jokes.

I don't feel that anyone really has a stiff upper lip. No. Zeppo, maybe. Maybe Zeppo. Yes, well. And he's had an interesting career, hasn't he? Did you just Google him? Let's talk about Zeppo. Zeppo is, as it were, I think the one thing I did recognize was, oh, there's a good -looking Marx brother who isn't funny. I think I had somehow absorbed that one of them was, they sort of brought their own straight man. Yeah, he's more of the Morgan McSweeney or the Dominic Cummings. He's the aid to Rufus T. Firefly. I think after this film, he gets tired of being the straight man.

So he goes off and becomes a theatrical agent. Yeah, he was a theatrical agent. And then he got into gambling and had various debts. So he owed money to organized crime, according to what I read. So basically, you've got showbiz. Yeah, you've got organized crime and you've got gambling. That Venn diagram is probably a lot of the same people. Nastiest Nazi. I mean, the ambassador, I guess. But really, I think you can make a case that Rufus T. Firefly... I was about to say, he's definitely the protagonist. I'm not sure he's the hero. I think you can make a case he's...

Yeah. I was trying to think. This film comes out sort of six, eight months after Hitler has come to power. When he watched The Great Dictator, right? That's very Hitler. That's the film about Adolf Hitler. I think this is more of a film about Mussolini, to be honest. Is it just... Or indeed generic sort of slightly ridiculous strongman leader somewhere in Europe. I mean, it's funny. Yeah, where is the great dictator is very much rooted in that time. In a funny way, as you say, Johnny, you could make a case that a lot of duck soup is actually about what's happening in Washington right now. You know, sort of with this. But I think, yeah, I think the Marx brothers were anarchic and mischievous.

But I think you look at Charlie Chaplin, you go, he was brave. You know, Charlie Chaplin, you can sort of look at it and say he was definitely brave to do what he did and he's directing the movie. Whereas the Marx Brothers were clever and mischievous and maybe counter -cultural, you know. Yeah. Did they like to flip the bird to the man, you might call it? Yeah, a lot of flipping the bird, a lot of just chaos. But I don't think they were brave in a way that, you know, Charlie Chaplin. Yeah, Chaplin sets out to make films like Modern Times and The Great Dictator and so on, which are explicitly challenging things that he sees sort of wrong in the world.

And I feel like the Marx Brothers are more sort of like Monty Python or something. There are jokes about things that are in there, but it's Monty Python on TV, not Monty Python doing The Life of Brian or something. where maybe they feel like they have got a message. I agree with that distinction, actually. And I think probably that's why Chaplin maybe is one of these ones that is better known in the UK still because you can show the films and people can say, oh, right, I understand. People like me can say, I understand what this film is about. I understand, you know. what it's doing well we also love the story of an auteur don't we yeah charlotte chaplin did it all and you know back to prince but miles

davis compared prince to charlie chaplin and at the time i didn't quite know what he meant but i guess what he was saying was he did it all you know because prince played all the instruments and he produced his records so you know charlie chaplin was you know would take a keen interest in the whole creative process whereas i think the joy of the marx brothers for me is just they just do what they do and you sign up to it or you don't And as with Groucho, it's one -liners.

With Chico, it's piano. And it's kind of like wordplay and puns and silly jokes. With Harpo, it's a lot of physical comedy. And he obviously plays the harp in the other films, not this one so much. And so it's... Yeah, you don't get the sense that they're sitting there thinking, what is this exciting new medium that I am working in? And what are the things that I can do with a camera that I couldn't do on stage in the way that clearly Chaplin... It starts to grasp, you know, that this is not just me doing my vaudeville stuff. Quite quickly, this is a new thing and I can do new things with it. Whereas, yeah, you don't get the sense that the Marx Brothers were interested in that way. In a way, yeah, Prince

understands that what he is doing is fundamentally different, you know, in a way from... He's not the Beatles because he can play all of the instruments, you know, and you can put them all together. I mean, what I would say is that it doesn't have to be that, you know, I know you're not making a case for Charlie Chaplin as quote -unquote better than the Marxist. No, no, I'm absolutely not. No, no, no, I know you're not, but the understanding of form is you end up with Terence Malick where it's, you know, like three hours of lingering, you know, because he's in love with the whole craft of cinema. Yeah. You know, there's a lot to be said for just people being good at what they're doing. And, you know, dang, putting it

up on the screen and not thinking about it too much. You know, that's part of the reason I love, you know, Duck Soup is actually its lack of form. That's part of the attractiveness for me. Whereas there's lots of people that are cineasts or even comic experts that are played around with form and it becomes a bit self -indulgent and boring.

Let us go to the Dambusters dog prize for the most problematic moment. Yeah, there's a few. There's a few. Some song lyrics. Yeah, yeah, there's a few. I mean, I think, yeah, there's some Paul Robeson spirituals. There is a song, there is a line that Groucho says, and when he said it, I thought, what? Where did that come from? That is a reference, I now know through the internet, to a popular song of the era that was sung by Paul Robeson. And may have been, there's a lot of dispute about whether this was in fact a satirical song, satirizing racism, or just a racist song. And this line was cut from when the film was shown on TV in America in the 70s and 80s. That's good, yeah. It's now restored. And this is one of those ones where

I just thought, I feel like I wandered into some strange minefield here where I just don't understand. Is this, as it were, casual everyday racism? Or is this Groucho being very carefully satirical? I'd like to think it was a reference to popular culture at the time. Yeah, well, it's definitely a reference. It's definitely a reference to the song. Yeah, rather than, you know, and if you look at the rest of their work, there's not a, you know, I wouldn't be coming on a podcast raving about them. Yeah. It's a weird, jarring moment.

Yeah, and there's a few, you know, there's like two or three of them all jumping into bed with a woman without her consent, which is, you know, seen as sort of, it looks like a comedy pratfall, but, you know, that's what, anyway, I don't even want to make jokes about it. Yeah. you know and that that's not that's far from ideal um yeah you know i'm watching it again there were a few moments where it's like okay that that's dated badly but you could say that about any comedy from the 40s 50s 60s 70s you know there's comedy from the 2000s where people are going oh i don't know why they thought that was okay yeah yeah there was there yeah there was literally one one moment where I just went, whoa. Yeah. Me

too. I was deeply, I'm pleased you've looked into the context because I was just slightly confused. I heard the line. I thought, well, we've got something to talk about in that category. Did you think there wouldn't be enough to talk about? Yeah. Well, actually, I'm going to save that for the end. I'm going to save that for the end when we sum up. Right. Well, I mean, we could do Best Lines. I'm a bit worried about doing Best Lines. Best Lines is going to last a very long time. There are loads of really, really good ones. I'm going to jump in first.

I'd heard it somewhere else. I didn't realize this was the origin, but I just really like the, I think we should have a standing army. Why? To save money on chairs. It's a great two -liner. Johnny, go on. Give us one. I could dance with you until the cows come home on the second floor. I'd rather dance with the cows until you come home. Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? But, you know, or indeed, a child of four could understand this report. Run out and find me a child of four. There were so many of these as they were coming over. Oh, right. No, I know. I mean, I love, you know, Ciccolini here may talk like an idiot and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an

idiot. Yeah. You know, I didn't come here to be insulted. That's what you think. There's so many of them. Yeah. No, it is. And actually, the fact that even though I've never seen a Marx Brothers film, I knew all of these lines, that tells you what their impact is. I think we've now just gone past the moment where this podcast becomes longer than the film. Well done. Yeah, I mean, I've got good -minded. Join a club and beat you over the head with it as well. That's another one. Well, brought to the radio all the moments in a completely implausible, but I think that's fine. Yeah. Judgment at Nuremberg. Don't bring that into it. I mean, there certainly are war crimes of sorts. Gas is used. Yeah. So that's

something. I think it's time to ask, Duncan, is this the movie that changed the course of World War II? Well, I guess so. Possibly. Possibly. Yes. Indirectly. Are we both thinking and have we both discovered the same fact about Zeppelin Marx? Go for it. Go for it. Yeah. Right. So Zeppelin Marx, who is, I think there's a biography of him called the Reluctant Marx Brother or something.

He's the good looking and... Possibly not as funny one. He sort of becomes estranged. But he is apparently very interested in mechanics and mechanical things. He's a tinkerer. He's a tinkerer. He keeps the family car running. And he ends up owning a firm in the late 30s into the 40s, which makes mainly motorcycle parts, as I understand. And during the Second World War, like lots of other bits of US industry, makes parts for... The war effort, including somewhat ridiculously, the clamps used to carry the atomic weapons in Enola Gay. The Marmon clamp.

The Marmon clamp. The Marmon clamp still used today is an incredibly important piece of kit, which allows you to join two tubes. Yeah. Johnny, Johnny didn't know this. I can't believe you didn't know this. So, and the Marmon clamp is what holds Big Boy and Little Boy, is it? In place. So, yes, sort of. So to drop the atomic weapons, you required clamps made by a firm owned by Zeppo Marx. There you go. And had this film gone differently, perhaps Zeppo would have stayed in the Marx Brothers and therefore not made the Marmon clamp. He didn't invent it, but he bought the license to make it. I loved this. I was so pleased when I saw it. That has boggled my brain.

I mean, this result just in, War Movie Geeks won, Marks Brothers Geeks nil. The moment I saw the reference to the bomb, I thought, oh, we've got one. Come on. Yeah. Yes. So I think that wins. Worth dying for. How does this film stand up? Oh, Johnny, you're the repeated viewer. Yeah, it's not for everyone's taste. I showed it in front of my brother -in -law a few years ago and he did not crack a smile. But then I think for me, I feel apart from, you know, the spirituals references and that, you know, the Armstrong reference we just talked about and some of the sexual politics, I feel it's dated actually.

It stands up pretty well. And, you know, the fact that you both laughed when you watched it, you know, and it was interesting that, you know, Gregory's Girl being Scottish is a film that I grew up, you know, idolizing. And I spoke to an actress who'd shown it to her daughter, and they both sat there, you know, stony -faced throughout it. You know, and it depends on the movie. You know, I find Tootsie hilarious, but a lot of people don't find that funny now. So, actually, if you look at Duck Soup, I thought of 2026 quite a lot watching it this week. And I think that's, you know, as you say, events in Washington. I thought of strongman leaders and despots, and, you know, we've seen a few of these in recent

years. They have their heads turned by women or their own vanity. So there's a lot there. I think what's good about the Marx Brothers is if you like comedy, there's something for everyone. So there's wordplay, there's physical comedy, there's daftness, there's anarchy. And it's all directed at authority. So I'd not really seen, as I said, I'd not really seen a Marx Brothers movie before literally last night. I'm really pleased I've seen a Marx Brothers movie. I'm filling in a gap in my knowledge. I did laugh.

You know, I laughed quite a lot while watching it. It is genuinely funny. I mean, when you think this film is approaching a century old, it's really quite astonishing how well lots of it has lasted. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'll be rushing to watch it again, but I enjoyed it. It's good. I am pleased I've seen a Marcus Brothers comedy. I think maybe like you, Rob, I'm just less familiar. with the form of a film that you know to start with is only 70 odd minutes long yeah which lacks the same sort of narrative as most other you know even comedy films and just feels quite anarchic and free -flowing it does so here's a comparison you know i mean i thought when we had the earlier comparison of

this film and goodfellas that was going to be hard to top as two very different films The film this left me thinking of is not a film we've discussed on War Movie Theatre before, but is the early 2000s Tom Green film, Freddy Got Fingered, which famously, I think one of the very few films that Roger Ebert ever gave zero stars to. I think it completely swept the Razzies that year with best actor, best director, so worst director, worst actor, worst film, whatever, sort of destroyed Tom Green's career. in cinema. He was quite big in sort of MTV at the time. They said, Tom, do you want to make a movie? Tom made this movie.

But it's fundamentally, I bet he's a Marx Brothers fan in that fundamentally what that film is, is not a 90 minute film. It's a series of 10 or 12 sketches, which he's later attempted to stitch together with a plot. And I think it's sort of bombed in the 2000s because people expect their films to have a plot nowadays. And it was quite hard for me watching a film from the early 30s where that expectation was not in place.

But overall, yeah, I would recommend it to people if they haven't seen it. Yeah, it's funny. I enjoyed it more in retrospect almost than at the time. And I'm looking forward to going back to it. Now that I know what I'm getting, if you see what I mean, I think there's a little bit of me that was just, I thought I was going to get one sort of thing, or I didn't know what I was going to get. And the thing I was getting was not the thing that I thought that I'd ordered, as it were. And that hampered my ability to enjoy what there was. I mean, yeah, you cannot avoid how enormously culturally important that just a huge footprint. of these guys and and when you see it it's there was i've talked about this

before but there was a a guardian piece about 10 or 15 years ago where they asked someone to listen to the smiths for the first time and he said oh it's just another of these it's indies bands isn't it you know the guitar and singing about how miserable you are and i read that going no no no no no no you've got to understand They would have done this before. And that slightly, I think, there's lots of this in it you think, oh, well, I've seen that somewhere else. But of course, you've seen it. What you've seen is somebody else doing it, you know. And yeah, I think I said this is not an original thought of mine. Bugs Bunny, for instance, of whom, again, I saw an awful lot in childhood. Bugs Bunny owes

an awful lot to Groucho Marx, you know, but smart lines and physical comedy and, you know, and. all of the sort of the cartoony pratfalls and this kind of thing is stuff i mean you can imagine you can imagine you know one of one of harpo or chico painting a tunnel you know on the side of a mountain so that somebody else can drive a car into it that's absolutely the kind of thing they would have done right so so yeah no i'm really glad i've seen it i I think people should see it, and I'd be interested to know from our audience, well, I know that the reaction is going to be, there's going to be a chunk of people who say, I can't believe you haven't seen this.

This is the greatest thing ever. And there will also be another chunk of people who go, literally, you know, or heard of it but couldn't tell you anything about it. Yeah, I think it's worth it. I think you have to go into it knowing it's chaos. It's just chaos, and that's the fun. And as I say, I sat down again last night and watched while I was sort of preparing for this and just found myself watching it. And I wanted to watch the Teasdale bedroom scene and I wanted to watch the mirror. And actually, had I not run out of time, I would just have watched the whole last half hour again because it's very entertaining.

And I think you get more possibly second or third time around. So actually, I think it stands up very well on a repeat viewing, I suspect. Yeah, I know. I enjoyed it as much, you know, the other night. I hadn't seen it for a couple of years. But yeah, I generally will. I've seen it more than 40 times, 50 times. I love it. Yeah. I think it's probably a good one to find an eight -year old to watch with as well. If they have no expectations and it's just, you know, it's just funny, silly things happening. Yeah, it would be quite a fun thing to watch with a small child who just wanted to watch people being silly on screen. Which is obviously where you came in, Johnny. Yeah, that's where I started. Yeah, I guess the small

child in me hasn't really left because I was chuckling away the other night. Well, yes. So definitely the most, definitely the oldest film we've done. Thank you very much for bringing it along, Johnny. Yeah, I'm sorry. You're not going to get somebody chucking their feet into a dirty lemonade counter in which we serve, are you? Thanks very much, Duncan. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you, everyone, for listening. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Yeah. A reminder that John McKee's book, Prince, A Sign of the Times, is in bookshops now. And if you're interested in Prince, or indeed you know someone who is, it's the book for you and ideal Christmas gift. Thank you, Rob and Duncan. Thanks, everyone. See you all next week.

Duck Soup - with John McKie

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