"The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" – Lauryn Hill

0:00 Hey, Adam. Peter Martin. I am so excited about the album we're covering today, Man. I am super excited. Thing is, I don't know what it is. Oh, You don't? No. I don't know what it Oh, you didn't get the memo? No. Um, well this is cool. This is gonna be right in your wheelhouse. I think it came out right when you were sort of coming of age.

0:14 We're talking late nineties Mm. We're talking early two thousands. Yes. We're talking Y2K Buddy. This is in my wheelhouse. I did have frosted tips. Okay, great. Um, actually I'll just play you a little, you you're gonna know what this is. Alright. Oh yeah. Dr. Dre's Chronic 2001. That's a classic. Oh, you talking about Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still Dre.

0:36 Yeah. Yeah. The DRE That doesn't get any better. Allow me to educate you, Uh, or miseducate me, as it were. I'm Adam Maness. And I'm Peter Martin. And You're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Music. Explored. Explored, brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to openstudiojazz.com. For all your jazz lesson needs. Right now.

2:18 Well, yeah. Right now. Go there. Right now. Go, go there. Pause this, pause this, and then go to openstudiojazz.com. Finish this. Okay. Finish this, but then promise to go afterwards. Right There where there is no miseducation, there is only education. Right. But today on the show, there's plenty of Miseducation because we are listening to the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill by Lauryn Hill. Yes.

2:37 The rare album title that includes the name of the artist as well. I, so it's Lauryn Hill's Miseducation of Lauryn Hill. I dig it. I really like it. This was released August 25th, 1998. Uh, this is Summer of 98. Summer of 98. Just, I mean, Summer of 98 picture it. Yeah. The Truman Show. Yeah. People are just starting to get a little scared about the, uh, Y 2K, but it's not really dominating Radar. It's on radar. Yeah.

3:03 Uh, no. I love 98. I, uh, I was a young man. I was but 19 years old Yeah. When this album came out. And it was a huge one for me. This was just like everywhere. Everyone my age and probably many ages was into this album. Yeah. Younger And Older. It's one of the bestselling albums of the nineties. I Didn't Yeah. It's one of the best selling albums of all time. Of All time. Yeah. Yeah.

3:22 It's a, it's a Grammy winner. And Lauryn, it propelled Lauryn Hill to Legit Superstar status. And uh, it's the only studio album that she's ever made. I know. It's crazy. As a solo artist, which is nuts. Like I know. She hasn't done anything since, I mean, with, and it's crazy 'cause it's so huge. Right. But I mean, we gotta remember she was already huge With the Fugees. That's right.

3:44 Gie Fugees. What did I say? You Say ies, so you're referring to Yeah. Uh, the Fugees. This is from the score. I feel like this was singing My, This was on the radio MTV movies. Everything for like, I feel like a year. Yeah. If Not Longer. This is 96. Yeah. Nine seven Scored 96. Yeah. I mean, this was just like, Lemme tell you something as a high schooler when this song came out Yeah.

4:15 Whose main attractive quality was to be a musician. Yeah. This was big for me. That's right. Because you were like, that's actually Roberta Flack song. No, no, no. Peter. Because the song is about falling in love with a musician. And I was like, oh no. It's kind of cool. Right? Yeah. How'd that Work for you? Kind of worked well.

4:35 Uh, but that was, um, that might have been some, But I mean, that, that, that sound of the Fugi Fu Why do you keep saying ies? The Fugees. Fugees where Fugees Fu Fugee, the Fugee All Stars. The Fuji. The Fugees. Like, that was such, like, that was kind of like, if you had to name the sound of the mid to late nineties.

4:57 Right? Yeah. Like in pop music. Like, you could name some other things, but this would be, you'd be, you'd be Right. You know? So, I mean, that's like Lauryn Hill, even before her solo record. Yeah. With the records, with the ies. I'm just gonna call it that from Now on. I'm so sorry. Wcl. I'm so, so sorry.

5:14 Um, this wasn't though for a lot of people. Their first introduction to Lauryn Hill. What do you know? Oh, about this Deep Cut. Deep cut. I sing because I'm, and I sing Like Who she Singing with. She's saying with Tanya Bluunt. This is from Sister Act two, which is he Oho fairly successful sequel all things considered.

5:55 And Lauryn Hill had a big part in Sister Act Two. And that was my first introduction to Lauryn Hill. 'cause as you know, I'm a huge Whoopie Goldberg fan, and so I've seen everything Whoopie's ever done. Love you, Whoopie. Ghost. Uh, Ghost is amazing. Shout out Jumping Jack Flash. Shout out. Right. Um, but yeah, that's from Sister Act two.

6:11 A lot of people, uh, discovered Lauryn Hill. Lauryn Hill had done some acting Yeah. Leading up to being a musician. And obviously She's kind of a teen act teen Actor. She was, but always with music and singing there, including Yeah. Preco in this movie. Yeah. And so, uh, this album came off of like, this is not too far a after the score was a big hit.

6:30 Yeah. She had a lot of heat going into 97 when she started to record this. She used a ton of musicians to make this album to help produce. And, And can we just go right back? I was just remembering Yeah. The order of it, um, from the score Killing me softly. Of course. Yeah. Which was the biggest hit of 1996. Incredible Version. Um, well, the Roberta Flack, uh, uh, version is one we've listened to before on this show.

6:53 And of course, and we of course listened to the Fugees's version. And That kind of was a little bit of a resurgence for Roberta Fla. I remember people were like, wait, what was that song again? Like, older people remember. Absolutely. But then Ready Or Not Remember that that was almost bigger, you know, great song too.

7:05 That was great. That was, that was a big one. Again, dominating. I mean, just that the sound. Yeah. You know what I mean? Uh, really became just so influential. Sorry. No, it's Okay. Please go ahead. It's okay. So she's got a lot of heat going in nine seven when she starts to make her solo album. And we'll talk about all the people on this album and then some, maybe some of the controversy around some of that later that came out.

7:25 Um, but let's get into The Miseducation. Yeah. This, um, like a lot of great albums, especially hip hop albums from the nineties has some sound design, some sketches. Yeah. Some things that happen. Yeah. And I love this. This is about, uh, it's a concept album about getting educated about love, essentially.

7:46 Yeah. And it starts in a classroom. I never learned anything about Love in a classroom, by the way. Well, the score hadn't come out when you were in High school. So used find, when I call your name Wolfe, Beverly and Jarris, Boykin Jersey. Alicia Simmons. Phillip Valdez. Gabrielle. So I'm Latoya Bradberry and to Mitchell Sutton and Laurie Thomas, Taryn, Lucas, Camia, Caldwell, Tamika Marshall, Lauryn Hill, Lauryn, Her name kind of stuck out.

8:26 One of the great transitions ever is from that brief roll call to the first song mm-hmm. Lost Ones one of the great opening tracks ever. It's funny how money changes situation, miscommunication, lead the complication. My emancipation don't enjoy equation. I was on the humble you on every stage, play Young Lauryn like she done.

8:57 But remember not to game the one of the son. Everything you did has already been done. I know all the tricks from Understand thing Test Me run. It's pretty far away from his eyes on the sparrow. Exactly. That we heard in Sister Act two. And it's also like, you know, at first it's kind of like the Fugeess, but then you're like, wait, oh, it's only Lord's voice.

9:32 Yeah. In terms, but she's not singing at first. Yeah. Which is gonna be beg the question. Like, is this a hip hop album? Is this a rap album? Is this an r and b album? Is this a soul album? Is this kind of a rock folk album folded in there as well? It's Kind of all those things, man. Yeah. It's got a lot going for it.

9:46 It's got a lot of different flavors on it. Yeah. And There's a lot of rapping before they're singing though. There is. Which which is obviously intentional. Well, Luckily she's pretty awesome at all of it. Yeah. I mean, like, well, and the crazy thing about this is if my sources are correct, if my notes are correct, um, full disclosure, we are not music journalists.

10:04 We're music appreciators, music lovers, and music players. You know, you say that every single episode and I'm gonna start pushing back because I'm going to Mizzou Night School for my music journalism degree. Shout up Mizzou. Pretty soon. That's Not gonna be True. Go Tigers. It's not true yet. Um, no.

10:20 So this is, I believe the second or third, uh, bestselling rap. If you consider this a rap, what does that mean? An album? That is why you say like, that has a lot of rap On it. Why do you gotta say rap like that Hip hop? 'cause I don't know. I mean, what does that mean? I don't wanna be that guy, you know?

10:36 But I'm saying that there, there, this is not like there's an occasional, like, she goes to some non song. I mean, like, she is rapping on this. That's a big part of what this is. And it's been classified as number two only behind, uh, Eminem who had some big records. So like, above Dr. Dre Snoop. Um, yeah.

10:52 But, but here's the thing. Here's why this is so special and here's why Lauryn Hill's so special. Like Eminem amazing. Obviously can't do this. Yo, yo, He can do that part. Yo yo. Yeah, He's great at that. This Is the second track Ex Factor All. So That's gotta po Right. And check this out. The Tiffany.

11:30 The Tiffany, that's a very weird Thing to program in. I love it. Her counterpoint Vocals So Good. Not sure which musicians are on each individual track as opposed, except for a couple of of exceptions, but yeah. Likely James Poyser, Every time there's some hip keyboards played, it is joint. Yeah. It's gotta be James. It's Gotta be James Poyser. Right?

12:00 You can tell Yeah. That that's a very unusual instrument To use. Buddy. I am a sucker for all things orchestral instruments used in these kinds of samples. Like everything from chronic 2001 like that. Right. Her voice is so beautiful. Her vocal stylings are so I know what we gotta do. But Then her spoken word stuff is so cool and authentic and not like it, it holds up so well.

12:46 What you doing? We're gonna stop it there, because that's coming up on my Apex moment for a little bit later. Okay. So we're just gonna hold tight there. Yeah. So that's Ex Factor. That's the second track on the album. Yeah. More sketches after this where the teacher discusses love with the kids. They're like interludes at the end of the tracks. Inter Losing, losing at the end of the tracks, which are so good.

13:07 Uh, third Track is a song written to, uh, Lauryn's young son, Zion. Yeah. And this features Carlos Santana, which is gonna play out here in another year after this album. One day. I'm gonna understand. Woo. Carlos Santana. Hello Santana. Man. That Bad dude. Well, Idris Muhammad Muhammad sample we talked about in our discussion with the One Song Lads.

13:45 This is from that Lou Donaldson track. Yep. Idris Muhammad, of course, one of the greatest drummers ever come out of New Orleans or anywhere. And with that snare drum that March, one of the most sampled hip hop. Can we just listen to that as the beat drops one more time on this? Sure. Because this is one, I think this is the, this has been sampled so much.

14:03 I think this is the best placement of it though. One day he's got Carlos Santana setting it up. That's nice. That's really interesting. And Lauryn Hill's like, And everything that's around it, all the production around the sample, that Blue. Oh, What's crazy about this is it's basically Santana just blowing through the whole thing.

14:29 Right. He never stops. Solo Man. Never stopped. And there's two of them, And there's two of them. I wonder if they just like, gave him a couple takes and used, I'm sure Unsure what the held Oh, I touched my belly, overwhelmed by what I had been chosen to perform Down that alto. But Angel came one day, told me to knee down and pray for man, bold, this crazy circumstance.

15:04 I knew his life deserved a chance, but everybody told me, look at your career. They say, well, She's real low in her range Here. Very low because she's about to take it up. Yeah. Oh, she's so grateful That Oh, the way she holds without vibrato. For sure. But then what are you doing? And Aris, the Aris Muhammad sample keeps going.

15:44 Santana never stops. Yeah. The and the two and the way they have it mixed with the two Santana, there's one is Sublimated Yeah. And one is out front. And the way they, that that conversation and then Lauryn Hill's conversation with her own vocal counterpoint. Yeah. And made her ability to, to, I, I don't even want to try to imitate it, but where, but basically the vibrato is when, or you can do it.

16:03 You, you can sing it. Could you start with a note with Al Vibrato and then you hold, then you go into some, some long vibrato. Well, we don't like to think about it like that as vocalist Peter, which as you know, I'm very serious. Is There better terminology for it than that? No. Yeah. That's it. Exactly.

16:20 Thank you very much. But It's fun for you guys. Thank you very much. Yeah. You don't have to be a vocalist. He's not. I'm not. No, he is. No, but, but like, when you hear somebody like LaurynHill that it, it's very easy to be like, oh, she's such a gifted singer. Yeah. Duh. Newsflash. But like the, the different levers that she has to pull vocally where you connect the voice with the artistry.

16:39 Like what is that about? We talk about that on piano, on keys, on bass, on drums, on anything. But with, for a vocalist, their instrument is their voice. Mm. But to have that kind of control, to make that decision, not just as sort of vocal pyro techniques, although, you know, she's got a lot of that too.

16:56 But to be able to connect that with the artistry of telling the story, coming out of that lower register the Alto and going up, I guess she's still kind of alto, but getting up maybe a little bit beginning Of Yeah. Yeah. Like the, the mezzo range. She's soprano thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. She was 22 years old when she started working on this album.

17:13 Damn. And she was pregnant with Zion. Yeah. And she started Zion with, um, is the son of Rohan Marley and the grandson of Bob Marley. That's right. So a little bit of music royalty there. Uh, and the song is about motherhood and the spiritual transformation pressures to choose her career over motherhood.

17:27 Which by the way, like this album, a lot of this album, it's about love. Of course. Yeah. And about heartbreak and in, in certain points and about falling in love and about the complications of trying to be in a relationship with someone. And ooh, there was Some sticky wickets during, There's there's lot, there's a lot of, during that time I remember lot, lot of dirtiness going on as far as just like, how, how relationships between people are messy sometimes.

17:48 But, uh, I think that it's dudes Dudes mess up everything. Yeah. I love, one of the things I love about this album is how, how much he talks about the process of being an artist and like the process of being a human and an artist at the same time. Yeah. There's pressures and there's, there's, um, there's lots of choices to be made along the road of creating art.

18:09 And especially when you get to the level that she's at, at this point in her life, where she's one of the biggest stars in the world. She's 22 years old, which is so Crazy to hear. I know. But I'm remembering like to think about because the maturity of her voice and her vocal stylings. Like that's the thing. I mean, there've been plenty of great singers at 22 and 16 and nine or whatever.

18:28 Um, and like we talk about a Stevie Wonder or somebody that, that comes up and is doing just genius vocal stuff well below before the stage, but also, but she's in that range though. You know what I mean? Like her, the maturity of her voice when you hear, it's not that somebody can be a great musician or sing great when they're 22, but to kind of have that, that sort of almost elder statesman at the same time approach to how the storytelling is coming Across. Oh man, the songwriting is, is incredible. Yeah. The production is, Which did most, well, I Mean, she, if you think about, if you really break this down, and I know that there's gonna be, we can talk about some of the detractors that have since

19:03 come outta the woodwork since then. And, and, and people saying, well, she hasn't done anything else since this or whatever. But like, what she's doing here is like, think about all the tools she's bringing to the, the skillset she's bringing. Right. So the rapping and the singing. Yeah. The songwriting and the producing.

19:17 She's also insanely stylish. Yeah. She, she looks like a movie star. Yeah. I It's like Miles Davis level of cool. Yeah. A accompanying all this. And she's 22 years old as she's doing this and, and a new mom. Yeah. It's crazy. Like this is like, and She'd already been in like the, the, the Fugees since she was, uh, in high school. I know. You Know, it's nuts. And also Too, I believe that, I hope I'm not speaking outta turn.

19:40 I'm not, um, a, a journalist yet. But, um, for Zion, like that she was pregnant with her. That was her first born, I believe. I believe so. And, um, she credits that pregnancy in him with getting her out of some writer's block on this album before that. Um, which is interesting. She definitely got through that.

19:58 So next, I mean, this is, so first of all, just the first three songs. Yeah. Unbelievable. Lost Ones, Ex Factor, Zion. And then comes a huge hit. Yeah. This was the biggest Wasn't I on here? Yeah. Or it was the first biggest hit On here. This is such a fun song. This is such a great video too. Yo, my Men, my Women. Don't forget about the How do you connect Duo rap strings On this?

20:41 Can I just say that I did so many studio sessions in the two thousands Yeah. Where they just wanted me to, To, yeah. Yeah. I had To do this so Much. Right. Thanks Lauryn. Thanks Lauryn. And you know what? The way she wrapped, I remember when she was doing this, even with the, with the Fugees before this ies, um, ity, the Fugees a big fan.

21:06 Um, Like She wrapped in a way that was not like a lot of the female rappers at the time, this is not like that kind of mc like salt and pepper who were great. I mean, like, that was the without them, there is no Lauryn. There Will be no salt and pepper slander on this podcast. Peter, I love. But like, it would've been easy for her to fall.

21:25 She's, this is more like Ice Cube, you know, biggie. Well, I guess this is a little before. No, no biggie. Yeah. This time. Um, I mean she was like, but her own way of doing it too, like she was very, very much like, had her own approach, but it was not sort of like, I'm a typical, um, female rapper.

21:41 I think she sounds great. You have To unpeel the rapper to see the artist boy. There you go. Okay, next up is Superstar. Yeah. Yo, Hip hop started out in the heart. Uhhuh. Yo, not everybody trying to char say what hip started out in the heart. Everybody. Come on baby. Come on baby. Come on now baby. Come on. Come on now, baby.

22:05 Come on now baby. Come on now baby. Come on. Come on baby. Okay, so now how far behind is she on that? That's already that So Tired. Everybody's like, oh, that was voodoo. Is what Music is supposed to inspire. Oh man, she's laying back. How come we ain't now? Tell me on exactly What an artist Should be.

22:42 This is what I'm saying, this commentary on how music is made, how art should be made. I love this. This is one of my favorite subjects that happens throughout this album Without Above. That's a hack right there. You want, uh, some little mystical touches on your album? Oh, Yeah. You throw a harp on that. Yeah.

23:11 Ethereal. Put a harp on It. Not a, um, nocturnal. Dreamy, yeah. Dreamy curly gates. Little turn gate, Little curly gates. Little death. Yeah. That's superstar. More of that later. Oh yeah. Whole hills. Yeah. Uh, Then we got, we have a couple final hour. Ooh, we gotta play a little bit. There's so many tracks on this album, Peter.

23:32 We can't play everything. Final hour is great. We gotta play just a little bit of when it hurts so bad. We're gonna see if Columbia Records let us play any of it for That matter. When hurts. Oh, this has a great break. We gotta get some break. Can I just say what else is on this album? There's so many examples.

23:56 We'll come Back to It. There are so many examples. She uses the two chord. Oh, the two chord is all over the Don't stop listening now. This is gonna sound good. So, right. So we're here when the key of c when it hurts a better, a minor. Yeah. Right. She does like a two. In this case, it goes up into three, but there are a lot of tracks.

24:16 Or it goes down to the one. Yeah. But That's almost like going, like, that's the temporary one going up to the two. Like the three is almost like the two, you know, I, I, I admit I must have ripped that off a bunch of times. Really? Okay. Songwriting as well. Yeah. All good. Um, okay. Sorry. Back to it. What are you doing? What do you We gotta get to at least, um, the breakdown.

24:42 It's like a minute in. Okay. We gotta talk about Jamaica too, because the musicians on here, the vibe there Is in the house. Yeah. There's all sorts of, here we go, Chris, You hear that little, that little reggae thing in there. I love that. And her layering is like All of, all of the improvisations happen around in the vocals.

25:44 Yeah. She's so good at that. Okay. Now we're about to add some royalty to the situation. Oh. So hello. We're about to add one of the queens Yeah. To the cocktail. Yeah. Mary J Blige. Now I don't, I love the song So much. I I what I, what I, All of The men, the baselines, the core changes on this whole album are so epic.

26:20 They're like evoke something truly special Situation, uh, Was the ocean And I Was the same. He my heart Like a thief and, And love Mary J. Blige on the feature there. So Killer Mary J. Blige. Only a couple years out, just a few years later. Oh, hello. You know what I mean? Huh? That's peak Mary J right there. Dang. Okay. So we Alluded to, We alluded to the jam.

28:14 I mean, a lot of this record was recorded in Jamaica, was tracked down there. Yeah. In Kingston. Yeah. Yeah. And the rich musical tradition there, the beats, the drops, uh, the way the drums played, the way the bass is played, the way that snare drum is. Um, Lauryn Hill said that she quote, wanted to write songs that lyrically, sorry, I'm not a journalist.

28:33 Quote, write songs that lyrically move me and have the integrity of reggae. Yeah. And the knock of hip hop and the instrumentation of classic soul. Um, and then, you know, she was, she talked about later on, this might get into a little bit of a nebulous, historically, historically nebulous area that there was pressure from, uh, the label that this be a very much, I mean, you know, prince was still like, basically that they were gonna set things up like she was a female prince, as in the artist prince.

29:08 And that like, she's producing everything. She's writing everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it was listed at that, that that was part of the shtick of part of the interesting, the lore of the album. Interesting. And she said that was a difficult position kind of that it put her in, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I believe led you know, led to this whole situation with some of the other, uh, what was it called?

29:26 The, the new Arc production folks. Veda Nobles, Rashim Poo. And, uh, JHA and Ted, sorry, I'm messing up this TMO Newton, their credit on the album for additional music contributions, lyrical contribution, additional production. But they claim that they were the primary songwriters on everything is everything.

29:47 Uh, nothing even matters. Maybe a couple other tracks. Lauryn Hill credited as the album's writer, producer, ranger, and performer. Only in a very prince like way, very Prince like way. Yeah. So where do you fall down on that, sir? Well, I mean, listen. Uh, is it, would that if it were true, yeah. Would that be anything new in the history of music? Exactly.

30:08 I mean, did Duke Ellington, Miles Davis not do similar things? Right. And do they get a bunch? Did Billy Strayhorn exist? I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, you know, it is what it is. And of course there's like, then the famous a couple years ago, um, Robert Glassborough on a morning show. I forget where it was. Or even if It wasn't something morning show.

30:25 Yeah. But, uh, talks about how he has friends who had, didn't get credited on this album for making some of the music. So Yeah. I mean, stealing versus influences versus borrowing versus you, you know, don't even know that you're playing something that you heard Getting paid. We won't be in there getting what you should get paid.

30:39 I mean, this is something that we can talk about forever with a lot of albums. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know much about that part of it. Yeah. But it, that kind of stuff for me, it's interesting 'cause like, that never really taints the music for me. No. Ever. I guess Lauryn is all over this record.

30:55 Whether or not there were additional music product, you know, credits or songwriting or like, that's sort of a gray area. Dude, I see a list of musicians this long. Right. Think about it on the album. I know I'm assuming there's a lot of collaborations, a lot of late nights, a lot of suggestions. And I'm Also assuming there's more musicians that didn't make it on that list for whatever reason.

31:13 100%. You know what I mean? Assuming that people did more than they got credit for. Yeah. I mean, how many albums have you been on, Peter, where you did a lot more than you maybe got? I Was on this one and I'm, I'm hoping, I'm hoping this this episode will get me paid for finally. No, but just, just to, Not that you shouldn't call that out when it, when it happens or whatever if like, but, but to me it doesn't like the, the experience of listening to the music.

31:32 I, I enjoy every artist that, well, She was trying to hide. I mean, she got a lot of people listed on there. It's not like, you know, and, and the Newark folks were listed. It was just how they were. And in any case, the suit was settled out of court in 2001. As these things often are with sampling, with interpolation, with production versus songwriting.

31:48 I mean, the record made a pile of money. Like this was one of the biggest records of the night. I mean, it's crazy. 20 million Elms or something like that. More than 20 million, I think. Jesus. And which begs the question, I wanna say like, this gets into that territory of like, um, of like mega records.

32:03 I I think the timing of it helps a little bit still In the CD era, by the way. So it was like all profits Exactly. $22 for a CD right. Back in 98. Right? Right. $16 maybe, if you like. And they'd already brought down the cost, you know, to like 30 cents or whatever it costs to make this, could you Imagine paying $16 per album right now?

32:20 I know that's crazy For everything you listen to, right? Remember that? Yeah. That's nice. I do, I buy albums for like $28 now. LPs Well, Yeah, but LPs, but that's not all you listen to. No, that's what I'm saying, man. That's Crazy. Um, no, we pay $28 a month instead. We're happy about That. We make 28 cents a year.

32:34 That's right. Um, but no, let's talk about this. Why is this? And as I'm listening to it now, I think I'm finally kind of trying to figure it out. But this record, like why did it become so big? This is a great record. We're digging it. It was kind of in our era, era of, you know, in our wheelhouse also.

32:50 But like, why did this, whenever you get above really 5 million, I would say, but definitely 10 million. Like, you're into serious crossover. You're talking about serious international, like, you know, like your mass market, you're McDonald's on a certain level. Not to say that to take anything away from the artistry, but I mean, like, you've hit a nerve with humanity when you can.

33:10 Like what was it about this, you think? I think so first of all, I think some of the production on, on this album really helps Lauryn's cause Yeah. For appealing to a mass audience. You know, we just did our thriller episode and, and Michael Jackson and Quincy, how'd that record You by The way? It did.

33:24 Okay. Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones were very meticulous and very intentional about making an album that would like play on rock radio. Yeah. They would play on pop radio that would play on r and b radio. That would be, uh, that had Paul McCartney, you know, like in order to like break out of just quote unquote Urban Radio at the time that they felt that Michael was stuck in.

33:45 And this, I don't know if it was as intentional, but you know, think about how many acoustic guitars we've already heard on this album. And this is very much like in the Fugees's tradition as well. So think about how many like nylon strings, not just Carlos Santana. Yeah. But a lot of these songs or acoustic piano and, uh, I and the chord progressions we've already talked about.

34:04 Like, there's these like really beautiful, um, ethereal powerful chord progressions. And I know I'm saying this is a harmony dork. Yeah. And it may not have a lot of weight, but I do think that these are very, you know, palatable me melodies, familiar chord progressions and the production and instrumentation is not like, it's not like a Wu-Tang clan album.

34:27 Right, right. Where you're just gonna get like very raw Yeah. Samples of repetition and then like very raw rhymes on top of that. Yeah. She is talking about some very personal things. Talking about singing about motherhood. Yeah. There's this mix of rapping and singing. Yeah. And she's doing it all. And she's amazing at both those things.

34:49 You know what I'm saying? I know. But you just wouldn't think that would be an Well, I mean, like, there's not like some of these other big albums you can see where it's really calculate like this is, but Again, one, not this, and not to play this up too much, but part of, I mean, You're right, the the proof is of the sale That happened. She's gorgeous too. Like she, these videos, she looks, you know, in the, when she's doing the doop thing and she looks like the sixties.

35:08 Yeah. I mean, she looks incredible. There's Yeah, there's like, she's a pop star at that point. Yeah. There's, there's, she's just as, as marketable as anybody because of all of these things together. She just happens to have the soul of, uh, of a underground musician right. Underneath it all. And that's what she's kind of singing about throughout this album, which is really interesting.

35:26 I think that the, uh, the lead up with those ex those huge hit with the Fugeess before this, you know, um, the Roberta Flack and the Ready or Not and like those being such massive and wasn't one of 'em in like a movie or something that was big. Uh, Well, there's, there's the Conspiracy Theory movie, which we'll talk about later. Okay.

35:45 Sorry, I jumped the gun. My bad. You have a conspiracy theory about this, this podcast? I do. Well, there was, there Was, um, no, but I mean, those, those were like that kind of, uh, to the mass market introduced her voice and that song, because she has such a unique voice. Right? Are you talking About killing me softly? Yeah.

36:01 Oh yeah. 100%. And ready Or not And Ready or not. Yeah, 100%. I'm saying like, so those hits were so big. Yeah. Right. And so by the time this record came around, like we were prepped, mass Market a little bit was prepped for her sound and her vibe, and then like she delivered on this record that is kind of unusual to be a, you know, multi-platinum diamond or whatever this is. I mean, Think about this Peter even killing me softly from the score.

36:26 Right. Which is like this massive hit, biggest hit of 96, right? Yeah. That is a easy listening hit from the seventies. Yeah. You know, and that's what the Fugeess chose to release as one of their singles. Like that is again, very palatable. Yeah. And I don't know if that was intentional, but like, that's something on the Thermometer. Where would you put just that track?

36:45 That's a one. That's a one that's, that's A one on the track. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I think I, I don't, again, I don't know how intentional this was for Lauryn Hill or if it's just her personality. We don't know because this is the only thing she's ever done. Right. What is the MTV Live Unplugged where she sings all these songs?

36:59 Yeah, yeah. But that's what I'm saying is like, this is like the, the most original collection of Body of work that she has. And so all we know is this. It's like, it's the only fossil we have. I mean, for people that wanna be like, that's the only thing she's done. Okay. When you come with a, when, when, when you, when you come with a banger like this, I mean, sure, we'd love to have some more, but Let's, let's put a pin in that. 'cause I'm Than that. Okay, we're gonna skip over.

37:19 Forgive Them Father, Forgive Us Father, what are you doing? And we're gonna go to Every Ghetto, Every City. Oh, this is the banger. Hell yeah. I was just a little girl. Stevie Wonder Vibes. Totally. But I'm Here for it. For this living For minor to major Streets is killing far every ghet, every city.

37:52 Some of the best drum programming on this record Call my days in New j story starts in Ville. Who up next to Ivy Hill when kids were stealing Carter? Shout up Mangos. Who Is this on base on here? We don't know. Right? Because he didn't put Killing it. Me even call my days off. Forget. This is Stevie Wonder fingerprints all.

38:43 Yeah. Hold now that low C on the Two. Two. You like that Box house 20 cents in the next little Springfield have had the Saturday. Man, how great are nostalgia tracks? I love Nostalgia Tracks. But this is like, man, this flow into what, I guess it's already being called Neo Soul at this point. Yeah, of course. Is like, because there's more like, and that's not necessarily rap.

39:19 I mean, 'cause she's singing, but like, spoken word and like that flow between that. But then with the nostalgia thing, program drums, which normally I'd be like, oh, that's man, the program, the drums on here are just killing like the sounds, the drops like the beats, obviously, but also like when to pull it out.

39:35 Like, you know. Yeah. Ah, man, that's, that's such a big part of it. This is in the breaks. Yeah. This is in, uh, the A list song. A nostalgia list song. Yeah. In the grand tradition of Sir Duke. Yeah. Of of Stevie Wonder, sir Duke, where she's like listing all the stuff she likes and she's going riding on a mongoose.

39:51 Yeah. You know what I mean? I used to love the Mongoose dmx mongoose. I heard myself on a mongoose at an unmentionable place one time in the seventies. I heard The Mongoose once, Huh. Um, but also it's a list song about things she loved about Stevie Wonder. Her, apparently she listened to a lot of Stevie Wonder.

40:05 Marvin Gaye, what's going? She was a little kid. She used to listen to that on repeat on Her. We should do a show on Marvin Gays. What's going on? That'd be good. That's A good record. That's a good record. Right? That's Stevie Wonder. Have We done Stevie Wonder? Yeah. We love Stevie. Alright. Something from the seventies, early seventies would be nice. You Know what? You're joking about the seventies, but now this is how many, how many albums have we done this season?

40:22 Yeah, between like the nineties 95. I know. And 2005. I know At least two. Well, and then we gotta talk about DeAngelo Voodoo and even Brown Sugar before this. Oh, Thank you. It's coming. Y'all. Our Brown Sugar episode is coming. Yeah. So this is like 95, 96, something like that. So before, but this is like Fugees's Prime time.

40:52 I'm gonna say I'm gonna save it for the Brown Sugar, but I, I only play that because it's, this is coming up next. Yeah. The feature on this album of DeAngelo. Yeah. I think that's Rose Too. Now this guys Could fall Not even if Call The World seems So very Small because nothing even matters at all. Nothing even matters.

41:50 See, nothing even matters at all. Nothing even matters. Nothing even matters At all. 10 feet tall. But I love this. I love this track. But like, the intro to me is like the most interesting musical part of this whole thing. The rest of it's cool. They're like vibing. They, I mean, of course DiAngelo and Lauryn Hill, like their voices are so beautiful and distinctive on their own and, and coming together, it's like stylistically it's like, no problem.

42:27 But in that intro, there's just like so much cool stuff musically. I feel like they're kind of just riding after that. But in, in a awesome way. It's a beautiful ride after that for sure. So technically there's only two tracks left on this album, Peter. And Wow, there there are two hits left. Is that including the, uh, two Mustard? No.

42:45 Oh yes. The Unmentionable Hit. It is, but first it's this hit, which features a very young artist. And I'll see if you can guess who it's, oh, maybe, you know. Yeah. I got in my notes. I didn't know at the time. I didn't, I mean, knew, Knew who it, What Do you call that piano, that sound? That's not the, not the left hand piano.

43:15 It sounds like an upright Yeah. A great video where like, the city was on a turntable on an Album. Right. Woo. Everything Man. The Rhythm of the Scratch. So Stevie ish Melody here too. The major Playing With the major. It's funny to Hear me singing when Lauryn's singing. Could you just do your own version of everything?

44:25 That'd be great. So, okay. Let's not spoil it. Yep. Can you guess who was on, on piano? I'll give you a hint. He's quite a legend. Oh, sorry. Oh, is that too on the nose? Also a John a John Legend. So a very young John Legend. I was looking for credit. Oh, love the piano. Um, I was looking for credits for John Legend around this time.

44:52 This was the first thing he ever did. Was it? That was that he, that I could find that he's credited on. He wasn't, he was not known John early. Now he's a legend. He's John Legend. Was this Still in his University of Pennsylvania? University of Penn Grad Couldn Couldn't have been that far out because Shout out the, uh, nerd Dogs, the nerd, whatever they are.

45:08 Uh, the album officially ends with the title track. How's that for some nostalgia for you? That sounds like a hitching. It's totally, yeah. Famously that the LP whole song so fast never leaves Passed it Team. So far, This is a title track my friend And life squeeze is so tight that I can't breathe. The way she goes down to the bottom of her brain is so steepy ass.

45:44 Every time I've tried to be what Man, her biggest, I don't know how I missed this. Her biggest vocal influence, I think is Stevie Wonder. Just vocal. A hundred Percent. Yeah. You Just get, sorry. Well, I know that was, she was influenced, obviously, but There's that one run. She does a lot. So much. Yeah.

46:10 Especially, uh, well, I was gonna say, especially on this album, only on this album, Famously it's your favorite album, Lauryn Hill's. Uh, it's my favorite Lauryn Hill album. Apex. But it's definitely a Stevie Wonder thing. I it's definitely like a, a Stevie Wonder Influence man. What an influential Dude. So we gotta cover him, man. Next.

46:25 Do you remember anybody who's 25? I love it when he gets that little, little glean in his eye. Little, little young. Adam, Do you remember? No. Yes. Yes. Maybe Hidden Tracks. Of course. Hidden Tracks. Of course. Hidden Tracks. Yeah. The lore of them. Remember the lore. And it'd be like, wait, why isn't it all my copy?

46:46 This was kind of late on the Hidden Track game though. A little bit. 'cause they, during the CD era specifically Yeah, there were a lot of hidden tracks. Yeah. And you would listen to the last track of a song and you would let it play because You don't know what's, 'cause you don't know what it's about because you physically see, if you could fast forward sometimes you could hold down the forward.

47:02 Yeah. And you could fast forward. 'cause It wouldn't have a separate track number. No, It would just be, it would be connected to the last track. And it would be almost like how Marvel does those cut scenes at the end of the Marvel movies where it's like, you stay, you don't stay after the credits. But I don't see Marvel movies.

47:16 You're uncultured, but you stay after the credits and there's a cut scene that's sort of like a, a, a teaser for the next movie. That's about to happen. Right. There were a lot of hidden tracks now. Yeah. Uh, Lauryn made a, a cover song of Can't Take My Ass Off. You Made Famous by Frankie Val in the Four Seasons.

47:37 Oh, this Killer. This Is Shut Out. Frankie Val. The range starting off like that. You are just too good. Be True. A choke Can't take my eyes off. You Used To put Vibes on Records. I, that was a little Motown trip. I want hold. This is kind of a Frankie Valley goes Motown type of track, actually on the nose. Pete on the Nose.

48:09 We all know that song. Great song. Uh, so Lauryn Hill that James Jerson live. Exactly. Lau Hill does a cover version of this for the Mel Gibson vehicle Conspiracy Theory. Do you remember the movie Conspiracy Theory? No, because I'm not a Mel Gibson guy anymore. Okay. I, well, no one is, but the, the movie doesn't really, I do remember the movie though.

48:31 Yeah, of course. Yeah. Course. He was a conspiracy theorist who was obsessed with the crime. And I think it eventually ended up happening. And he was like, you know, um, typical nineties lore. Anyway, a DJ like put that cover on a CD and started playing it. And it From the soundtrack. From the soundtrack, yeah.

48:46 And it took off. Right. And it became a big hit. So the Lauryn Hill version. The Lauryn Hill version. But the, but the, um, the, the, uh, Frankie Val version was in the movie too or something? I think so. Yeah, I think so. And so they had to put it on the album. They put it on because it was so popular. Right.

49:02 And they put it on as a hidden track. And it's 'cause they were playing on The radio. Unbelievably good. It's Killing. I feel like this was the biggest hit off. It wasn't, but for a minute it was. Conspiracy theory was, oh, check it out. The movie Mel opening April before he goes off the rails. I could see the future.

49:28 And this is like kind of the most Fugeess sounding track on here. I mean, this isn't the category when a cover might be better than we could do a whole episode. Originally Frankie Valley didn't write this song, but his version is before this was the most famous version. When It goes to the chorus, it's killing.

49:50 Yeah. We got vibe on this little rhythm guitar buddy. Real. Oh yeah. Larry Golding's in here to talk about that one. But yeah, That's right. Of Fugees. That's High Ham and B three. Kind of over driving. Yeah. If James Jamerson hadn't been alive, what would every bass Player have done? Oh, This is on the Apple Music Version of the album.

50:52 Now You're just too good to be true. Can't take my eyes off of you. You'd be like heaven to touch. I wanna hold you so much. And I thank God eyes. I How Great is that? I mean, I think that the Hammond B three, which is all over this album and this track. Yeah. This is, that to me is part of the the Jamaican ness.

51:43 Yeah. Of this. I mean, this is like her band. And when you see her live band from this time, I mean, it's set up like a reggae band. Yeah. Like, there's B three, there's guitars, there's percussion, there's all of these things. Shout out James Poyser. Even if that wasn't him on there, it probably was.

51:58 But uh, on the Keys in general. Yeah. Shout out James Poyser. Come on the show sometime. Yeah, we would love to talk to you. We shoot, we're huge fans of everything. Is This gonna become James Poyser, Greg Fill Gains Appreciation Club? Should we do a James Poyser? Greg Fill Gaines Month? The unsung, well, the internet unsung. There's, we're Singing singing. They're like the glue.

52:15 We're singing as as we can American music. We're Singing as loud as we can. Um, yeah. I always think Prince was great, but what you know about James Poyser? Come on. He's important too. Yeah. Um, cool man. Well, let's do some categories. Okay. There is another, there's one more. There's yet another hidden track after that.

52:31 Tell him none of this. The hidden tracks, by the way, don't matter anymore. 'cause you just see it on your Apple music. You can't Hide it. Yeah, you can't. Um, okay. What's your desert island track, Peter? Um, I've got Every Ghetto, Every City. I love it. Like, I was a little bit torn because Yeah. I mean, I just love, even though there's, Uh, like skinny legs pressing curl, It's so, like you could say it's reductive of Stevie Wonder living in the city.

52:59 It's like a list of his, like it's a list song, but it's also like a list of stuff that she loved about Stevie Wonder. And you could go be like, oh, that's cheesy. But to me it just sounds great. She's singing great. She's singing the blues on that with that minor third major. We talk about that all the time. But I think that that's just like, that's, that's joy.

53:15 That's a joyful track on here. But everything's good on, on here. I mean, like, there's four other tracks for sure I could have picked. I'm gonna go with Lost Ones. Which is the first official track on the album. That's great. 'cause when it starts the first Oh yeah. Two seconds. You know, like, oh, this education's on.

53:32 That's right. We're about to have a great time. That's true. Oh yeah. Come strong. You know what I mean? Party has started and then that Beat, that's saying something. Oh, it's funny how money changed your situation. That first break. It's Coming. Emancipation. That's a statement Caribbean right there. Yeah.

53:53 Um, that's mine. What's what's your apex moment? Apex moment I got, um, oh, on Superstar 3 0 1. 3 0 1 on Superstar. Yeah. The, uh, that guitar going of those dominant chords. Man, I love this break Made plans With Char Beef. My album Sell 500, be a ghetto. Big dominant seven nine chord. I used to work at Footlocker. Oh, It's so gnarly. Right.

54:24 It's really, And it leads up to it. And then she's singing the Counterpoint stuff on top of it. Mine Is, this is actually an album full of, of possible apex moments. A lot. Like, there's no like huge, huge like, oh it's all going to this. But there's so many cool little things like that I think. Yeah.

54:40 Could Do you mind if we just take a minute On my Apex moment, I have it queued up right where it is. Yeah. But it's only, it's only effective if we listen to it. Okay. It is the chorus of this and it takes a minute. So Simple Shake. It's such a, whoever thought of that. Like weird. Do we need to get a in here?

55:12 Could you imagine the dude doing It every time they did, they sampled it Again, what we talk about the two chord, right? Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. The two chords are the one that two minor is all over the south. Yeah. Very Titan. The two is the most melancholy chord there is. You might think it's the six. It's the two.

55:55 Yeah. Yeah. That you can say Knows how to lay back. I know what we gotta do. Yeah. Greatest use of reciprocity in Songs Of hot music history. Possibly. Yeah. She's kind of a wordsmith. Peter Mark. What a great use Tritone sub. Hello. This is crazy. This is crazy. This is crazy. This crazy Tiffany letting you back.

56:53 There's so many great drum breaks. That's one of my favorite moments in music history. Honestly. When, when they go into that chorus like that, no matter how we, yeah, I mean it's something that every song I aspire to write, I want to have a moment like that where it's just, did you call that an aha moment?

57:10 I would call it a a give me a ha's jams moment. A chills moment. Yeah. Like it gives me chills. Even now, 25 years later. Let's do it. Do you need a hug? I'm good, but thank you. But it's good. Uh, bespoke play this title. What do you got? Um, let me hear yours first. 'cause I forgot to write this one in.

57:25 So I got one album Goats, one album Goats. This means like great artists and albums that they just made one. Um, so yeah, I get it. Thanks for explaining. Do you need more of a definition? So Sex Pistols made one album. Derek and the Derek and The Dominoes Right. Made one album. Layla. Yeah. Jeff Buckley made one album.

57:48 'cause he he passed away. Yeah. But, uh, and Lauryn Hill's up there. Why did she only make one album? We're not counting MTV Live. I mean, it's a live album. One studio album. One album of original music. Could you imagine the interest if Lauryn Hill made a new album today? Yeah. What if she made an album? Yeah.

58:06 What if she went in the studio? She made 14 tracks and did it. Someone sends her to Kingston. She does this thing that, yeah. Can you imagine how nuts people would go? Yeah. It would be. I'm not, I'm not saying why should there It might, it might out there. You be yourself, do your thing. But man, um, I'm just thinking, okay, I'm gonna go. Really?

58:27 Man, y'all can laugh at me in the comments. Late nineties jams with a z. That's, that's the laziest. Uh, it's good though. It's lazy, but it's good. It's one of the worst things I've ever heard. Is it really? It's one of the worst things I've ever heard. Late nineties jams. Not just one of the worst bespoke playlist titles I've ever heard.

58:48 One of the worst things I've ever. No. That it's not, it's not even the worst one I've ever done. It's not even the worst one you've ever done. How could it be one of the worst? Okay. Quibble bits. What do you got, Peter? Um, quibble bits. My bespoke playlist. No, my only little thing on this would be like, listening to this, like the spoken words.

59:08 Like, like the, what do you call that? The, not the spoken word, but the, um, segue stuff. What would you call that? Like when she's in the classroom? The interludes, the skits. The interludes. Like the skits. I love the first one like that. Sets it up and then goes into, uh, lost ones. I mean, that's a classic right there. It's beautiful. Yeah.

59:25 Yeah. But like some of the other, the later ones to me are a little bit like, I wanna keep hearing the music. I don't need to keep like, the conversations With the kids about Love is fine, but I mean, like, there's so much of that in the, there's so many stories within these songs and like, she's such a great storyteller with her lyrics and her voice and everything.

59:39 But this is quibble. It's not I like it. I mean it's, it's Super No Peter anti children. No, no, no. It's almost like a we got space on a CD now to do this, you know? But it's fine. My Only quibble bit is this is the only album of original music that, Oh, you, your, your biggest fault is that you care too much. It's Thermometer. What do you got?

59:55 I'm going one on this one. One. What? This has gotta be a one, right? It's, it's either a one or a 10. Man, it's A two. It's a But what's in between a two? Why would you go two instead of one? You think there's a little bit of snobbiness to it? I think A Okay. Maybe. I mean that's probably, that's hard to argue.

1:00:11 Argue with 20 million. This stretch. This is, that's probably the worst numbering I've ever seen in my life. It, it's, You're right, you're right. Okay. Usually at this point in the list we do, is it better than kind of blue? But we've got some good suggestions. What Do you call it? Kind of Blue. Kind of blue.

1:00:24 KOB. Yeah. And some people say like, Hey, when you all aren't talking about jazz albums, maybe use a different reference. 'cause it's weird to compare Thriller to kind of blue. And you know what? We kind of agree. So we thought, what if we Did, wait, wait. I'm gonna preempt you. I see what you, I see where you're going and I see what you're reading.

1:00:39 But I'm gonna, I'm gonna, can I one up you on this? Okay. Why don't we make it not only that it's a more comparable album, but it has to be within like 10 years of that record. Okay. Okay. So, So I'm gonna challenge you. Okay. Because what you have here is good. I'll just tell 'em. It's no secret. Yeah. You have better than Innervisions. I Was gonna say, is it better than Innervisions?

1:00:57 Yeah. And I would say no Okay. To that. But I think what, that's not fair because we're not in the same era. I Would also say no to that. Yes. We ask to be same era. It doesn't have to be same, you know, genre where, genre. Genre. Same era. I'm gonna say better on this one. I'm gonna nominate better than Voodoo.

1:01:10 Just to make it a little more challenging. That is harder, isn't it? Hold up. I'm gonna say. Okay. I put my, what do you have? No, I said no too. Okay. Interesting. Not hard at all, but very close. Oh no, I would put that, I Dunno, really. Okay. Alright. There you go. I mean, I love Miseducation, but Voodoo is maybe too, it's the timing of everything right now.

1:01:30 Yeah. The D'Angelo of everything. But, uh, When you were in that red velvet whorehouse listening to Voodoo, that was such a particular moment for you, wasn't it? Now that's the worst thing I've ever heard. Monts, what do you have? Um, I have an eight. I I could be, I could be talked into a nine 'cause it's so where, I mean, I, I know exactly what I got a nine. It's pretty great. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty great.

1:01:51 Uh, what do you got for up next? Um, I've got Lauryn Hill, MTV Live Unplugged because I think that's a great album. That was in heavy rotation. Um, around, that was like 2000, 2000 thousand three maybe even. 'cause it was, I remember it was CDs before we moved back. I remember like Kelly used my, Kelly Martin used to listen to that a lot.

1:02:09 And it's a fun, it's, I mean it's, I don't think there's anything on from this on that. It's a bunch of original music stuff she could have done a record with. She did do that record. Um, I know it wasn't super well received, but I think it would be good to listen to. Up next. I have uh, DDO. No Angel Ddo. No Angel.

1:02:27 I almost went with Macy Gray. Ooh. I was thinking about albums around this time. Yeah. From uh, what I like about, I feel like that would've been a Macy Gray would've been a slight fall off from this. I'm gonna be honest. Do you know this DTO album? No. Angel? No. 1999. So a year after this. Yeah. I like that.

1:02:42 Totally different genre. Yeah. Dto a English singer songwriter. Is It a Dito? It's Ddo. Dito. And um, while she made more albums than just, uh, no Angel. That definitely was like the biggest one here in the States for sure. Yeah. The only one I can think of and is International Buddy. I'm just saying like, we're really basically going off of what were the CDs and my girlfriend at the Time's car, You know, See because Miseducation would come out and Dito would go in and so I feel like for me this, they go together very Well. I like it. I like it all. Um, what else do we got here?

1:03:16 That's about it, man. CTA. What does that stand for? Grand Theft. Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Auto. Wait, that says Al Adam Voodoo. Yeah, I changed that. Oh, that was Aaron. I changed that. Sorry. Sorry. My bad. We'll take that out. We'll take that out. Good. Uh, we got anything else? Nope. Alright. Till next time you'll hear it.