I Didn’t Believe in God… Then I Heard Him Say “I AM” - #172 Lisa Kehs

0:00 You would hear people say oh they're in a better place or someday you'll be with them. And I said to myself, I would not ever, ever blow smoke up one of my friends butts to try and make them feel better. And it's so empty. And I was like, unless you were real, if you were real, I would. And I heard in my mind, I am. I was like, like, excuse me.

0:35 And I was, I was shocked, shocked as I still am today. That was like that exchange of thought, almost like a lightning bolt of I'm saying if you were real, I would tell people And when I thought it that I hear this, I am, I was stunned, just absolutely stunned. Before we get started, I want to thank some people who have stepped out in faith and obedience, as God's called them, to be a part of this ministry.

1:08 The first group are the people who have sent videos to us sharing how they've experienced God. It takes courage and faith to do that. Many of those have become the guest that you've seen with us. God is using their stories to spark awakenings around the world and to show people that He's active and He's powerful in people's lives today. Many of them have not become guest with us simply because we can't take them all.

1:32 But whether you've been a guest with us or not, thank you for being willing to be an instrument that God is using to fuel the awakening that we're seeing today. The other group of people are the people who have been obedient as God has inspired them to support this ministry financially. Our donors do more for this ministry than we can express. And while we know you don't seek recognition for it, you got to know the impact that you're having for the Kingdom. It is tremendous.

2:04 Thank you. So if you feel like you've experienced God and that He's calling you to Share your story, visit astrongerfaith.org/contact. Follow the guest recommendation instructions there. I am certain that there are many people watching this right now that know that I'm probably talking to you. I want to encourage you. The process is really simple.

2:29 You don't have to be great. You just have to be obedient to what God's telling you to do. And for those who may feel that God's calling you to become a financial supporter of a stronger faith, there's some easy to navigate giving options to become a part of our community of donors founded a Stronger faith.org/give. Once you're a donor, we stay in touch every few months to share some of the extraordinary things God is doing through your giving.

2:57 So whether it's by recommending a guest or becoming a donor, we hope you join our community as we lay ourselves open to whatever God intends to do through us. So now let's get started with today's episode. There are people who walk away from religion and never look back, and Lisa Kayes was one of them.

3:19 After years of frustration with hypocrisy, rules and what she was saw was an empty ritual, she didn't just drift from faith, she rejected it completely. She wasn't searching, she wasn't open, and she had built a life that made sense without God, and she was confident in it. But in a single moment, something interrupted that certainty.

3:45 Not gradually, not emotionally, but instantly. And what followed wasn't a shift in belief, it was a confrontation with something she could no longer explain away. This is a story about what happens when someone who has already decided that God isn't real is forced to reconsider everything. Please meet Lisa Kays.

4:14 Lisa Kays, I loved your video. I've watched it many times. You were so authentic in that video. I loved it. You're just like and and then you've walked in here today and you have just been that authentic and matter of fact, but also filled with the Holy Spirit, which is incredible welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

4:40 I'm. Glad you're here. So you're from Pennsylvania? Allentown, right? Outside of Allentown. Outside of it, let me ask you a question. So this is a totally off topic question. The song Allentown, Billy Joel, yes. Now do people of Allentown say, yes, that's our song. You know, it's like New York, NY and Sinatra and all that. Like New Yorkers.

5:04 That is their song, you know that, you know the people in Allentown say that. Or are they closer to like Oh my gosh, not the song again? I've never heard anyone actually speak about the song. I don't know that there's a lot of, like, pride in Allentown like there is in your town. I saw that, you know, when I came in with a football college and all that good stuff. But I'd say they're more.

5:28 We're about 50 miles outside of Philadelphia, so I'd say it's more like Eagles country, yeah. Yeah. So. So it's not playing on the radio stations all the time and no, all that stuff. That's our song and OK. No, actually I've never. At the Christmas parade, there's not a float with the song. Playing on, I'm not even sure that there's a Christmas parade.

5:50 We got to change that. Later, I think they tie really more into the Philadelphia area. There's a lot of like Phillies baseball, Eagles football and things like that. So I think it's more geared towards that kind of the thing than they. I've always loved that song and but it it, it's not necessarily has the most upbeat message either on the song, but anyway, I've always loved it and Billy Joel is great too. But anyway, totally not while you're here. It's just where you come from.

6:19 We've had a handful of people from Pennsylvania. I think one of our most recent was J Kael, and I think you said he was probably no more than an hour from where you are. Is that right? Yes, yes, outside of the Lancaster area and so it's about an hour drive. It's a pretty straight shot from where we live.

6:36 And so when I looked him up and got it out there, it was less than an hour drive. OK. Yeah, well. It's a small world. It is a small world and salt of the earth people that have come from there to here and you're the most recent. And so thank you. Like I said, I've watched your video so many times. There's we love all the videos we get. We really do.

7:03 And it's the process that we have is you make a video 20 minutes or less. And I know a lot of people say that's impossible to get my story. And in 20 minutes or less, yours was under 13. You were like 12 minutes and some change. When I see those, I really love that you were so concise, but you told a really powerful story in that time.

7:23 But it's not like I said, some of these videos that we get, I just resonate with at a higher level for some reason. I don't know what it is. Yours was that way and whether it was your authenticity, probably what happened, yours is like an overnight thing and from where you were to who you are is extraordinary. So enough about that.

7:53 We're going to get into tell me what happened. So, and you know, sometimes when I tell this story and I'm glad to be in this setting because most often times when I'm telling it, I'm looking at somebody saying I was them eight years ago. They don't have any idea what I'm saying. They're looking at me like I have 3 heads. And I understand it because I would have, I may not have even have been as gracious as that.

8:20 You know, knowing how I was and how I felt about anything to do with God back before I had an encounter with him, I probably would have, you know, I wasn't mean, but I probably would have had some pretty, you know, judge mental things to say afterwards. So it's so nice to be in the setting and say like, Oh my gosh, Stacy's actually going to understand what I'm saying.

8:43 And it's not going to, you know, make him look at me funny. But so I can give you my background first to have a little better idea of where I was when this happened. But I was raised in a traditional Catholic Church, you know, went through all the sacraments through confirmation. And, you know, I didn't have an understanding of Jesus through that. You know, whether that was how I was instructed or it was just where I was, I don't, I don't know. But I certainly wasn't introduced to the Lord throughout my religious teachings. I went to CCD all the way through when I graduated high school and I had never opened a Bible. And when I was younger, the things that we, you know, had to do with like going to confession

9:38 and things like that were it was really daunting because you knew the priest knew your dad. You know, you weren't really going to tell him anything because, you know, even though you have that, you know, whether there was a screen or if it was face to face, you just never felt comfortable really, you know, truly confessing anything. And so, you know, went through the drill, did what I had to do. And then in my teen years and a little older, obviously not to say that I was rebellious, but I like how you said as far as being a truth seeker, like if things didn't make sense to me or if rules didn't make sense or if somebody seemed hypocritical, it was kind of hard for me to digest following what they wanted me to do.

10:31 You know, if I was already going to be not allowed out for the weekend, what did it matter if I was grounded? It just didn't didn't really make a lot of sense. So that was in my, you know, religious standpoint was just that these are rules that don't make a lot of sense to me. It doesn't seem that anyone's following them.

10:50 You know, a lot of sin on Saturday, saved on Sunday, you know, things in the traditional religion. So I, I just didn't put a lot of thought into it past that until I had when I was 20, I got pregnant with our youngest son and I'm a blended family. So if that doesn't make sense, I have, we have an three children and the youngest 1 I had when I was 2021. And at that point, you know, when I got pregnant and being raised in that environment, I knew I was bringing shame on my family.

11:29 And so I thought, you know, that was when I was like, OK, I need to get myself straight. God does this. So I became very religious and in the church you, you can't receive sacraments if you are living in sin. And my being unwed and having a baby was living in sin. So I couldn't receive communion. And, you know, I made sure I sat in the front of the church with my baby and I was engaged to marry his father. And I wore my scarlet letter proudly that, you know, I was taking my penance for what I had done. And honestly, and it wasn't I, I was pretty committed to it. And when we were having our son baptized, you're supposed to choose godparents who will continue your raising of your child and your faith if

12:29 something happens to you. So I was looking for Catholic people. My dad was the only practicing Catholic male that I knew. And so he only had a godfather. So that's how you know, I was all in for this. This is what I'm supposed to do. This is what I've been told to do, and I'll do it. And the So we did that and then his biological father and I were set to be married.

13:00 It was and it's six months before you have to take classes, They call them pre Cana classes. And so when we went to meet with the priest for that to start that session, we got there. We were told that his biological father had been married before, but they were married at a justice of the peace. There was no he had never been baptized and there were no children. So I was originally told that this gave us a clear path to getting married because he didn't have any religious affiliations.

13:38 He just had to convert to Catholicism, and we were on our way. But when we got to that meeting, we were told that they found that the woman that he had been briefly married to had been baptized in a Lutheran Church. And now we had to have an annulment before we could get married. And I wasn't unfamiliar with the annulment process. It's supposed to take years.

14:04 It's be very difficult because you're actually, you know, it's kind of a legal process to discredit your marriage so that it can be annulled and you're free to marry somebody else. And we're getting married in six months. And I was like, oh, no, what do we do? Like we can't get married now. We have to go through this and it was, you know, all the things going through my head of do we cancel the wedding? What do we do?

14:32 Because again, I'm sitting with my scarlet letter. I'm not looking for any special treatment. I am, I'm going to, you know, you know, carry that burden and show everybody how sinful I was and and you know, take the take my comeuppance. But what was actually told to me was don't worry about it. It costs more, but you can get this done quickly. My father had given money to build the church. It was we had a a family tie to a a lawyer for the Catholic Church and everyone was reassuring me that my wedding could happen in six months.

15:16 I thought, well, what are, what are we doing here? Why am I allowed to, you know, circumvent this process? Why are there loopholes? And it just, you know, when people talk about the veil coming off which and again, I had no frame of reference for any religious or churchy terms. But in that moment, I thought, wow, this isn't, this is an organization and I have special treatment because I have a family who's not poor and, you know, ties to the legal counsel for the church. So I don't have to do any of these things. But somebody sitting next to me who may be less fortunate would have to go through a different process. And that just in that moment, that exposed what was happening to me and I didn't want anything

16:21 to do with it. So on one hand, I was very, you know, indignant about the fact that I, you know, felt like, you know, that kind of self righteousness that you get where I was like, this is, you know, absurd and I won't have it and a thing. And on the other hand, I was in my bathroom for the weekend crying my eyes out because I knew nothing else. And I have a vague recollection of having a thought in my head of saying, God, it's not you, it's them. But I'm out.

16:50 I'm not, I'm not doing this. And and that was that I read, I remember reading a lot of books, Scientology, Judaism. There was a series called Conversations with God that a girlfriend had sent to me, you know, because everything that I thought was true wasn't and you know, you're kind of lost. And so I read through those books and you know, nothing really resonated. And I thought I'm just going to go on with my life. And I did had a very you know, I enjoyed my life. I didn't by son's father and I, we did get married a couple of years and then we divorced and I remarried and we have three children.

17:43 Both of their, our children's biological parents both lived out of state and worked out of state while we were raising them. So we raised them together. And so we just lived what I was, yeah, I considered a really great life. You know, we were very secular. The teachings that I learned through, you know, the moral side of growing up in a Catholic Church and with parents with a pretty strong moral compass. I knew right from wrong, but I had a an emotional and physical aversion to anything to do with religion. Our oldest two had gone through a Lutheran kind of, I guess, confirmation.

18:30 It's we were, I thought growing up, and I don't know where I got this from, but I always felt like anyone who wasn't Catholic must have done something wrong that they weren't allowed to be Catholic. So if you were a Lutheran, you were a demoted Catholic. Your family did something that you couldn't be there anymore, otherwise you would be.

18:50 So our our oldest too, they had gone through confirmation and I would go to their ceremonies, but I would sit in the balcony like there was, I wouldn't as far away as I could get at a wedding, a funeral, you know, arms crossed in the Catholic Church, you're not permitted to receive communion if you're not Catholic or if you are Catholic and had done something wrong.

19:14 There are those rules around it. And I very pridefully would not, you know, take communion. You know, my dad would say, Lisa, you're still Catholic and I don't. Why do you want the communion? Why do you want their communion? And I really had a very hard edge about anything to do with religion. All of this is so messed up.

19:44 It's so messed up. I'm sitting here listening to you tell this account that I've heard a million times in other variations, and absolutely nothing that you have discussed in your experience has anything to do with knowing and loving God. It's all about religious doctrine. It's all about the religious process. It is religion.

20:20 Religion and God are not synonymous, in fact. Dare I say they are opponents in in many cases when we talk about things that create exclusion, things that create exclusion from the House of God, the presence of God, we're on a slippery slope there. And I, I'm not going to make any absolute comments around that, but I'm just to to hear.

21:06 No wonder you were averse to religion. I am too. That makes all of it makes me sick. Every bit of that. It is ejecting you essentially, and revealing to you that is a system rather than love. There's not one of one bit of love in anything that I just heard you describe, and I'm sure there's many other details I don't know.

21:39 There is no Christ in that. There is no love in that. I don't know. I, I, it it, it makes me. It makes me angry. It does. It does and it did. I was, I was angry at that moment when, you know, I was revealed to me what was happening. And and then later on when you know, and through the the years between, because I was 22 ish and this went on till I was in my 40s.

22:14 So and I remember in time our youngest asking me, you know, he had started school and everyone's talking about what they are, you know, are you this, are you that and it to do with religion. And I said, well, if you really feel like you need to answer, you can tell them that you're Catholic. You were baptized Catholic.

22:36 I said, we don't live, you know, Catholic life. He said, but if you feel like you need to say something, and this is how unimportant it was to me. I didn't even feel like I was giving him an identity in Catholicism. It was just, if you feel you need to say something to get off the subject, you can say that.

22:53 But you know, I believe that, you know, people use God to keep them in line. You know, there's somebody watching you make sure you don't do this or do that. And I said we understand consequences not only for ourselves but for other people with everything that you do. And so you don't need that, you know, essentially telling them God wasn't real, but, you know, there is a use for A use for them if people aren't. I guess I was thinking, you know, intelligent enough to understand that what they do effects other people. And that's what you should always keep in mind and. There's another thing here the, the fact that you also went through the process, all the processes of understanding all the rituals and sacraments and

23:44 all the other things. And there's, there's good in these and, and when Christ is attached to it rather than the rote version of it. But even going through CCD, I mean that and I'm not Catholic, but my understanding is that sort of the training ground where you become familiarized with the with the religion and with the doctrine and with the sacraments and that sort of thing.

24:12 You go through all of that and by own your own admission, never opened a Bible. No. Never understood the gospel message, right? No. How is that possible? I mean, in my experience, and I'm sure that there are, you know, I can't speak for everybody who was raised in that environment, but I felt beholden to the priest.

24:39 If your priest knew what you did, you know, my sister and I would go to confession. And I remember when we were in our, you know, late teen years going and we had to go face to face this one time and not that the screen. We grew up. I grew up outside of Williamsport, PA, very small town. I graduated with 75 people. Everybody went to the same church and that, you know, you go and you confess.

25:08 It's the, you know, I fight with my brothers and sisters. I disrespect my mom and dad. I, you know, said curse words and hope that it's over. And I recall one time the priest asking me if I had a boyfriend and if I sinned. And this guy knows my dad. Are you crazy even telling you that? And you know, so he gave me my penance, you know, because I said, of course not.

25:36 And you know, now I don't only have my 10 Hail Marys and 10 our Fathers to say now I lied to my priest and I'm, you know, back there just saying as many, you know, as I as I could with again, not having any understanding of what was happening except to it was something I had to do. You'd feel ashamed of yourself. You're not honest, you know, again for me and you know, and that that's like my stand out memory of giving confession, you know.

26:13 And again, none of these things have anything to do with Christ. It was just, you know, as beholden to our priest and the rules. And when I saw them as as that, as hypocritical, then I just walked away all together. That was, you know, a very black and white thing for me. If this isn't real, I'm out. I have my nature is.

26:43 I know I've heard you say this before, but truth, I just want to know the truth. I can forgive things I can deal with. I can understand, you know, the nuances that may make people do something, but I need to know the truth And I just when I realized I didn't, it wasn't true. I was just I was done And in that, in teaching our children that as well, you know, that was the truth side. The other with the, you know, aversion to anything religious was a, that was an emotional, that was an emotional response. I don't know whether it was to being hurt or just whatever. I I would feel it physically when I would enter a church that I did not belong there.

27:34 And I would be, the whole time I was there, I was thinking about, you know, the hypocrisy and the, you know, and looking around and wondering how that had hurt other people, You know, that we're there and just ready to get out of the building. And it was so far and few between because it was only weddings and funerals. I didn't until a couple of years before I was saved. I didn't really have any reason to, to be in the presence of any kind of religion.

28:08 We were not a religious family. Once our two older ones were confirmed, they never had to go back to church again. You know, it was all just, it was an exercise in what you were supposed to do to get to that point. And then it was up to you whether or not you wanted to return. And we didn't go with them anyway. We would drop them off for their classes and then take them home after.

28:31 And that would be. A devoid of God, it it just and and the tragedy beyond that for me in listening to this is that as this is all transpiring, you're not just saying the hell with religion and that church, you're discarding God along with that. And God didn't do any of this stuff, but because of the the experience of, of what has happened, you now have the position that you described as like some people need God to have be some sort of moral police or standard. We understand that there's a moral standard. It's not God, right?

29:24 We're more intelligent than that. And so you have turned your back on the possibility of God because of religious doctrine and the way you were treated by that. You spent a couple of decades inside the church following the doctrine and didn't know God had never opened the Bible. That's a problem.

29:56 That's a problem. This is how I mean I'm, I'm sitting here listening to you say this and then I'm picturing Jesus. I always wondered why he wore the Pharisees out like he did. You're whitewashed tombs. You lay heavy burdens on people and you don't do it yourself. You'll go all these distances to to go make a proselyte and make him a worse child of hell than yourself.

30:21 And and I'm like, man, why would it? It's like, This is why the church, the tradition cast you away from God. That's insane to me. And it just, it makes my blood boil anyway. And, and I, I don't want this to be an anti Catholic thing. I mean, there's other Protestant denominational things that have similar processes and, and all this stuff.

30:50 So this is just, I don't want us all to go there. Let's don't do that. No, and it's not I, I've, I've met and I know Catholics who have a relationship with Jesus. I didn't have any experience in Protestant churches. And no, this is certainly not a Catholic bashing. It's just what my experience was.

31:10 And I can't even say that maybe some of it wasn't me, you know, that my ears weren't closed to it. Maybe there was something else said, you know, but what was really relayed to me was the, the rules and the, you know, the things that you have to do. And God wasn't a part of it. Yeah. But the fact that this can exist. Yes, yes.

31:32 Is the problem in any church any variation that you want to come up with? I know that there are many Catholics who experienced the sacraments and and CCD and all that stuff and it is a it is a, an instrument that draws them closer to Christ. Wonderful. I get it. But if this is happening at all, we've got to, we got to, we got to say, wait a minute, we're, we're, we're missing the point here.

31:58 This is eternal life that they know you, the one true God in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Jesus says to the person that says, Hey, we did all these things, you know, we cast out demons, we heal the sick. And he's like, but I never knew you. I never knew you. And it's it's all about knowing him. Every bit of scripture is about knowing him, not doing the things Jesus railed against religious tradition, religious doctrine and said you got to know the you got to know God and I'm the way.

32:44 Anyway, we've got more story. Together. And that's the problem with that too, is that it's not true. You know, the things that I learned and I experienced were not true. They were a a tool to encourage me to live what was perceived as a good life. But it wasn't true. And you know, that was for me that breaking point was just like, this isn't true.

33:08 What am I? What am I wearing this scarlet letter for in church? Not receiving communion. And I really felt I didn't deserve it and I was OK with that. Because you sinned. Right and. Just like everybody does. They they, they just they defined yours as more egregious. You could see it? Yeah, you could see mine.

33:26 Make this one public. So that was how, you know, my next 20 plus years went a couple years before I had an encounter with God, I had a very close friend of mine and we, you know, we spent however many years we were friends with till that point just having a good time. You know, we, she knew who Jesus was. I believe, if I recall properly, that she was baptized as a young adult, but that wasn't any part of our friendship. She was living, you know, a secular life, But I mean, we were just living a regular life like people do. And she had started and and didn't say anything to me about it, but I did notice that she had started like she was going to a Bible study.

34:22 Wouldn't didn't, you know, talk to me much about it, But I would, you know, and this is just to give background on where I was at the time, because it was again, I and I remember how I felt and I just thought it was so silly, you know, and I saw her Bible on her table one day and I like, I remember flipping it open, closing it and I was like, what are you even doing with this? Like this is, you know, to me, that was where all of everything I experienced came from.

34:52 And, you know, she was just like, well, she's like, you don't, it's fine. And she just would, you know, brush it away. Didn't, we didn't really have much conversation about it, but we were close enough friends that if she were doing something, you know, special, she would invite me. And there were two times, once to her church, I think that she and her children were in a Christmas play or something. And I went and again, same.

35:17 And this was not sure what the denomination was, but it wasn't Catholic. And and I went very uncomfortable and was like bolting out the door. And her pastor kind of like stopped me and was like, hi, you know, I'm so and so. And I thought, and I'm just in the parking lot like hi, nice to meet you.

35:37 I'm out of here and went into the parking lot. And when she came out, I said I didn't mean to be rude, but like, what does she want from me? She was like, I think she just wanted to say hi. I said, well, she can say hi to somebody else because I'm leaving and, you know, and again, just laughed it off and thought this is all like, OK, people do this, it's fine.

36:00 At least she seemed nice and interested. But I, you know, not for me. And then I don't know how much later it was. She had a she presented it kind of like she was graduating from from something. And again, I know nothing about Bible studies or you know, because even though she was Christian, I didn't know anything besides what I grew up with.

36:28 So none of this is making any sense to me. But she was having some end of a year situation. I thought maybe she was getting some certificate like a confirmation or something would be the only thing I would be familiar with. And so I said I would go and I went with her and her sister and it was a like a square of tables, women who had completed a Bible study.

36:51 They were having dinner together and just fellowship. And I'm thinking, what is going on here and why am I here? And like literally like crossing my arms and my legs in A and I'm apologizing to people because I'm not rude, you know, I said, I'm so sorry, ladies. Like you all seem very nice, but I don't I don't belong here. They're playing games of, you know, like scripture games. And it all seemed, you know, nice. But I was so physically and emotionally uncomfortable. I couldn't wait to get out.

37:23 And I told them that, you know, I said, and they're very gracious, very nice to me. And when we left and my girlfriend and I were, you know, I was laughing about it. And I was like, well, you tricked me into that one. And she was like, I was not. I said, I know you were. And I know you just wanted me to be there.

37:40 I said, but you know that I am not ever going there. She was like, no, no, no, I know. But she appreciated me going and I wasn't sorry. It was something that was important to her and she was my friend. So no matter how silly or how much, you know, I felt above that because all these poor women sitting there thinking they need to do this to live a good life. And I knew how to live a good life. You know, I was.

38:06 So I kind of felt sorry for them. You know, it was, they seemed nice, but it just, you know, I, I felt like they were being tricked in a nicer way than I was. Like they had this crutch almost that they felt like they needed. Did you feel like you are just an aggressive opponent to religion and is specifically Christianity, or do you believe that you became an atheist?

38:39 Or would you have classified yourself as an atheist? If I had to put a definition to it, then I guess I would have to say yes, because I believed that God was made-up in order for people to have, you know, in my experience, it was for control. And the brief interactions I had with Christianity that wasn't so religious seemed like, you know, people had a weakness, that they needed to have something. And while that was more palatable, it's still to me was, well, this isn't real.

39:24 And if it's not real, then I'm not doing it. So I guess yeah, you would say it was leaning atheist. I never labeled myself anything. I didn't. I didn't even think that atheism needed a label. Like it was all so silly to me because I knew how to be good without it. Yeah, and atheism is, is really the belief that there is no spiritual realm.

39:55 And I think that, you know, there are people who call themselves atheists without actually looking into, you know, what that means. And other people who have really, you know, had a looked for answers and that's what they came up with. I wasn't doing either. I didn't care. So would if I'd have said, Lisa, do you believe that God is real? You would have said.

40:22 No. No, SO that would probably qualify you as an atheist. I guess if I yeah, putting a label on it, it would have, but really never put any thought into it. I didn't. It also didn't bother me if people were, you know, if those nice ladies were meeting for a luncheon and not hurting anybody, well, you know, good for them.

40:44 With on the other hand, with the religions that I saw that were, you know, putting burdens on people that they didn't deserve, that made me angry. The, you know, the withholding of communion from people. When I would go to weddings, I would just leave at that point. You know, I, I saw the nuptials happen and it was very arrogant. You know, I wasn't, it was very prideful of me to that was my reaction.

41:15 That's how I was feeling. It wasn't. I felt better than and you know where now I feel sorry for people in a different way. But it was, I was definitely very aggressive towards anything religious and had no problem if somebody were telling me something religious, to tell them that I wanted nothing to do with what they were speaking about. I didn't believe it.

41:39 I would share my experiences. I would expose the hypocrisy, you know, and again, if there was a nice Christian lady being a sweet grandma somewhere, it didn't bother me. It seemed, you know, that that was a nice thing for them. So I did see both sides of that. But at the same time I just thought it was all silly. Which is a very entrenched and powerful position, quite honestly.

42:07 It's like, yeah, that's she's not coming out of. That no, my heels were dug in. I was right. Yet here you sit. Here I sit, Yet here I sit. What happened? Yet here I sit. So Hackett had to be. Within the past 10 years, I had two of my very close girlfriends suffered tragic, tragic losses. And when one was a child and one was a brother, unexpected.

42:46 And so in having to go to the funerals and interacting with them after those things happened, you know, you would hear people say, oh, they're in a better place or someday you'll be with them. And you know, it's took the position of you don't say anything. You know, you just sit and cry with somebody you can't understand. You can't tell people things you don't know. And so when I would hear these things, it was again, making me very righteously angry.

43:26 People are saying things they don't know. It's so insincere and it's. Filler conversation it seems like because we don't know what to say. Right. And you know, and that is all that I heard were people who just say things like that. And the one night I was sitting at home and my husband and I were watching TV and I was grieving for them internally.

43:56 And I was in very like, I keep hearing these people say these things. How could you say that? How could you tell someone something so empty when you love them and they're suffering like they're suffering. And I'm having this inner dialogue of, you know, being angry at people for saying that, of not understanding why these things happen, Just all those things that were going through my mind and I'm crying and grieving for them, you know, quietly just watching TV and and I said to myself, this, you'll see them or they're in a better place.

44:34 I was like I would not ever, ever blow smoke up one of my friends butts for to try and make them feel better and it's so empty. And I was like, unless you were real, if you were real I would. And I heard in my mind I am. I was like what? Like, excuse me. And I was, I was shocked, shocked as I still am today that I and it was, it was like the sentence wasn't even out of my mouth. And I don't know why that's so significant to me, but it was like that exchange of thought, almost like a lightning bolt of I'm saying, if you were real, I would tell people, But I wasn't even thinking that it was a, you know, that it was a thought I was questioning.

45:41 I was asking. And it was almost simultaneous as when I thought it, that I hear this. I am. And it was audible in my head. I don't know if that makes any sense. It wasn't as though my husband could hear it in the room, but I heard the voice and I was stunned. Just absolutely stunned. How many episodes of this have you watched Of a Stronger Faith? Probably four or five.

46:21 OK. So you may know what's coming, you may not know what's coming. It's almost like I just have to sit in that for a second because that is so extraordinary in my mind. The way you've set this up tells me that in no way were you spiritually primed to change course in your spiritual position. You are so entrenched, you are so dug in.

47:11 Is there any case to make that would say, actually you were primed spiritually? You are beginning to search for God and meaning and some of this stuff which opened the door for your inner dialogue for you to maybe suggest that God in fact was real and create this. No, I was fine. I was living. We, I, I was happy.

47:49 We have had and have a wonderful circle of friends. My, you know, we were financially successful, very respected in our circle of friends, our blended family was a success. Everything is, you know, everything was great. I was, you know, I mean, obviously you have your ups and downs of life, but in the big picture of things, I was very happy in my circumstances.

48:22 My husband and I were, you know, he said we have a circle of friends that we would hang out with and come to our house and have picnics and, you know, have drinks and beers and everything like everybody else and just having a really good time. The I felt terrible for my girlfriends who had to go through what they went through, but it never aside from again be I was just angry. I was like, why would you say this to somebody? Yeah, it sounds like in the moment you're pissed off about. I was mad that people wouldn't just sit in their grief with them and let them be.

49:00 Why do you have to say things to people that you know aren't true? And it's so insincere. It happened in this moment. In that moment and I didn't know what I am was for years. So that's a whole other question, you know. Did did you have any biblical context for the phrase I am? No, and it was years, it was just a few years ago I was sharing this with and casually, like in the kitchen at church, a couple of ladies were just having a discussion of when they they really felt like their life, their relationship with Christ took a turn.

49:41 And, you know, and when I said that, you know, I am, it was like, Oh, well, that's and I had no idea that the, you know, that God had said that to Moses. So this is so for those who don't know, I. Thought you said I am. I was like, you are what? This is in Exodus 3 and this is where Moses has been a a shepherd for 40 years after having been in Egypt for 40 years.

50:13 This is the second third of his life from 40 to 80 and this is where he encounters the burning Bush and where God breaks in. And if you want to read a powerful something loaded with spiritual truth, Co read Exodus 3. And there's just so much in there. But anyway, Moses sees this Bush that's burning, but it's not being consumed by the fire. And he's like, I'm going to go check this out. And and him turning toward this was his turning toward God. And God recognized that.

50:54 And that's when he spoke. And it was in that time he told him to stop and took off his shoes because it's holy ground. And at that point he's in dialogue with God directly and and he begins to know it. And this is when God instructs him to go and get the Hebrew people out of Egypt, couple million people. And he's just a shepherd.

51:18 He's like, I mean, who am I supposed to say is sending me? And this is when God says I am who I am. Tell them I am sent you. So this is God introducing himself saying I am and and it changed everything, right, to use a, a term like that. So for those words, those two words, I am to slug you the way they did.

52:05 It's not a fleeting thought. It doesn't sound like, and I'm going to ask you questions about is how is this not just inner dialogue or whatever? It's just holy ground. Just like God said. It's like take off your shoes. Don't take a step further. You're don't approach too closely here. This is holy ground and so you are walking along your path and he does the same thing for you and it's stopped you in your. Ex.

52:47 Describe the voice as best you can. It was clear it was masculine and like I said, it overlapped, felt like it overlapped. My thought like that was it wasn't like if you were real pause. I am. It was as though they intersected and exploded and slave just scared me. I was, I was scared. I knew, I heard it.

53:30 I knew, I knew that that happened and and I was just, I was just afraid and in awe and, you know, thinking did I do that? You know, what you said is because it wasn't. I wasn't looking for an answer. I was just emoting. I was just mad, you know? It's just cursing people who give empty sympathy to people I love. I wasn't looking for an answer of why these things happened. I wasn't questioning, you know, why they had to happen or looking for any spiritual answer. I was cursing the people who were giving empty sympathies to my friends.

54:27 You were afraid. That is so cool to think about. I mean, so many parallels to the scene in Exodus 3 to me at least, I see it anyway. And it's extraordinary. I, I sat in it this morning, actually in Exodus 3 because of this and because of what you said you experienced and it, it, it, it is not a thing to easily move forward from.

54:55 It's like, Oh yeah, God spoke and yeah. And then we doing this and it's like, what this was, you were just in no way. You didn't come from a charismatic background and seeking the gifts of the spirit or even seeking God whatsoever. It's just so, I don't know. This is really, this is really powerful to me and I, I, I think this is holy ground for sure. What happened to you in the moment? Did you change you?

55:34 Did you re evaluate? Did you dismiss what happened in the moment? I believed what I heard. I didn't know what it meant. I was, I said I was frightened and I went to bed. When I woke up in the morning, I woke up immediately consumed with having to know who Jesus was. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Isn't that what Lisa would have said 24 hours before?

56:22 Are you kidding me? And so within a few hours you are anti everything. God, religion, Christianity, church, Bible, what to a relentless pursuit of Jesus? Yes, I had to know who he was as I did have a you know, it's funny because when I hear things that people say, I remember saying them like, you know, I guess if somebody historically presented Jesus to me as a person, you know, sure seemed like a good guy. He could have existed history book say so, but you know, again, just putting that towards a religious way of, you know, they hijacked him too, but not ever really putting any thought into like, I didn't know anything about him. I was probably just repeating things I had heard, you know, yeah, Jesus, he was a great guy,

57:33 you know, maybe a prophet, but I didn't even know what a prophet was like. That's I just wasn't paying any attention to, you know, anything more than him being a good person who some people respected. But I wouldn't even say that I believed that he existed. I didn't know. I didn't ever look into it.

57:52 I didn't care. It wasn't necessary. It wasn't something I needed to know about until that morning when I woke up just consumed with I was like, I need to and I was sitting saying I need to know who Jesus is and I couldn't not know. I had to. I had to find out and I, I don't know what time frame it was to when I called that girlfriend who had invited me to biblical things, but it was also her brother who had who she lost.

58:29 And I called her and I kind of told her an overview of what happened and I said I I need to know who Jesus is. And she got me a Bible. And now to so show that this did nothing good for my worldly, secular existence. This was not welcome in my household, and not in a mean way. We're like, oh, you better not think this or you're out of here.

59:00 But it was not. It wasn't anything anyone was looking for. It wasn't. If it had happened to my husband, I don't know if I'd have been as gracious as he was. But so I was treading very lightly about telling anybody and the the weeks that followed, you know, and again, I'm every morning, every night, every moment of my day is consumed with this, what I heard and what I feel I need to know. And a couple weeks in, I was up very early one morning. And at that time, I wasn't a morning person and I was vacuuming.

59:51 And all of a sudden I remembered I was like, Oh no, I know I had shared this in a video I put that but that my mother suffered with mental illness and physical illness when I was growing up and when she would have what we called manic highs. She would get very Jesus Y and so it's how you could always kind of know if and she had a relationship with Jesus always.

1:00:23 It wasn't anything shared with us. She was she was anti Catholic. She was but agreed to raise us Catholic, but she never really spoke to us about her relationship with Jesus. And the only thing that I really ever saw about it was when she was, you know, having a, a manic episode. So in that moment when I'm up early in the morning, I thought, oh, no, this is what it is.

1:00:51 I am I'm losing my mind. That's that's such a better explanation than what is, you know, actually happening. It made more sense to me, but I just couldn't. Like I kind of wanted to believe that, but I couldn't. And at that point I remember saying, God, if you want this for me, like you need to do it because this is scaring the shit out of me. It was like I am terrified but if you want it like if this is true, I'll do it but you have to do it because I can't and I don't even know like why what I'm saying. So at that point I don't even know if I had that Bible yet that she sent to me, let alone having read it. I was trying to figure out and deal with what was going on in in my mind and and also try and

1:01:49 explain, you know, bits and pieces to my husband about what was happening because there was no, I couldn't not do it. Like in our in our town where we lived, we voted at a church like that was who held the the elections. So I called that girlfriend of mine and I said, I have to go to a church. I'm going to go to this one that we vote at. And, and we got there and, you know, there's a greeter at the door.

1:02:21 She has a coffee mug for me. And, you know, I'm still me. So I am appalled by this. Like what? Like the woman who, you know, wanted to say hi to me on the way outside of the church, Like what is going on? What is with these people? And gave me this coffee mug. They're like, oh, how did you hear about it?

1:02:39 And I was like, I vote here, you know, went in, sat down and I put the coffee mug behind my back because I didn't want anyone to, you know, approach me to just just the New Girl, you know, you have the coffee mug and but I had to be there. And so. And I remember during the service, you know, they sang songs.

1:03:02 It's not A and like an elaborate band. It's just, but they have, you know, people play a couple instruments and sing and everybody's singing and you have some people with their hands up. And I just looked at her and I said, I don't know what kind of cult that I'm sitting in so that I will not ever like I just and but again, but I thought it, it was such a my mind was telling me, you know, like, what are you doing here? And I couldn't not do it.

1:03:40 And even with that thought of am I losing my mind? I knew I wasn't losing my mind and I just could not understand what was happening, but I couldn't not do it, if that makes any sense. It doesn't make sense, but it does. You know, it's so this is so, this is so rich and this is so powerful. And we're going to kind of get into what do you think happened?

1:04:12 You know what, what really happened? We raise up 30,000 fees. Like taking a look at this thing holistically, you know what happened And it, it was in my view, it was you were raised in religion. Religion exposed itself to be empty of God. And so much so that kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater there, so to speak. And the the the the treasure for you was located in the trash and you threw it all out and didn't realize that that that God is until he lovingly and in the way that I think you needed. I don't I don't know what else would have worked for you. What else would have worked for you? I don't know.

1:05:31 I wasn't looking for anything to work for me. I was fine. I was fine. You know, this was a huge disruption in my life, by all accounts of looking from the outside in, you'd say, man, that isn't great for her. You know, when I got the Bible and I started reading it, and this is how I'm going to tell you, I went to church every Sunday for 22 years.

1:06:02 I read the four Gospels and wondered why they kept saying the same thing over and over in different ways. Like what is what is this like, why don't they move on to it? Didn't make any sense. Why would you just tell the same story 4 different ways? You know, I guess I don't know if I was looking for a manual, if I was looking for the catechism, but as I was pouring through it, because I read and read and read and read, there was nothing in there about the sacraments. There was nothing about what I had to do. Well, actually say that because that was another powerful experience that I had.

1:06:41 But the the things I was looking for that I was told I had to do were not in there. And I would shut it and say, oh, like I was duped. You know, all those years that I felt I was doing something wrong. And then when I thought I was trying to do what was right, it was exposed to me that none of it meant anything.

1:07:02 And so I spent a little bit of time being angry that I was fooled for so long, but I just couldn't even be bothered with that. I was, you know, consumed with finding the truth and and that truth between the Bible, other books. I read a couple of CS Lewis books, you know, I had the the three question answer moment that, you know, I always think when he was, you know, inspired to write that, you know, lunatic, liar, truth teller.

1:07:40 I thought, gosh, he had no idea what you know, and how that would impact so many people. But I definitely, I had that moment and you know, but in my day-to-day life, you know, my husband would come home and I'd hide my Bible. Like part of me was embarrassed because, you know, I had dug my heels in in one way for so long. The other was, I know that this doesn't fit into our life or our lifestyle at all.

1:08:13 And not knowing what to do with that, wondering if he was going to call my dad and say, I think Lisa's, you know, losing her mind. But, you know, I'm sleeping well at night. I'm not having any, any other any signs of mental illness. Like there's nothing there because I'm trying to convince myself that maybe I am and this isn't, you know, really what's going on.

1:08:39 But so all those things are happening and then I in reading scripture, you know, when I came across that, you know, you have to put God in front of everyone, you know, including if your, you know, your children, your parents, your spouse. And that got us to be first. And if these things go away, if they leave you because of it, that's what has to happen.

1:09:10 And then, you know, I would read a that, you know, but in seeing that I was like, that's a reality for me. You know, that was very that could have happened. And if my husband and my children turned away from me, I couldn't have questioned it because I I probably would have. So when that reality sunk in, I thought, oh man, like this is this is a real sacrifice. But but God loves family and me and he's trustworthy. And at that point, I had already known that the only reason that if it went in that direction was because God was removing me from something that I shouldn't be a part of, that he had better plans or more important plans for me, but that if he was going to preserve my family, that he

1:10:20 would make all the things happen that needed to happen. And that was a very early on realization to me was that I could trust Him. And I did. And I said, all right, I'm all in if I lay these things before you. And again, I have no idea what these things even mean, you know, But I'm saying if you want me, I'm yours. And I trust you to figure out the details. And you know, because again, if I'm just like I wore my scarlet letter because that's what they told me, I'm reading the truth. I mean, I did the history, the outside of the Bible, you know, references to the time Jesus was here, archaeological digs. I mean, because I'm a logical person. I was doing all of the investigative work of, you know, on that side of things as long

1:11:18 as as well as the spiritual things that were happening with me and bringing them all together in, you know, in one. And I realized this to be true. And if since it is true, I can't deny it. If I can't deny it, then I have to walk in the way that God says to do it. You know when being so far from religion, only having that one experience with one religion because like you said, there's religion and doctrine in all denominations that will pull people away from God. I only knew that one, and since I had absolutely rejected that, I thought that this is what everyone else knew to be true. So I didn't question anything.

1:12:19 Once I realized it was the truth, some of the things were hard for me to swallow. Love my family. I don't want to not be without my family. That seemed crazy to me but but God said trust him. OK, I'll trust you. You is, is all of this rooted in the one account of him speaking to you in that that that night, that day, whenever that was, I think it was at night, right?

1:12:50 Because she said you went to bed and got her the next morning or whatever. Are you continuing to have some sort of evidential experience of his presence or is this all did this was this all born from this one experience that launched you into Now I got to know as much as I I can know about it. From that moment. And that was, I think, because I was reading through a journal that I that I keep about God moments. It just never left it never to this day I wake up with the same it's just there.

1:13:38 It's just there, every moment, every day, in everything. OK, so you can believe he's real and intellectually. I love that you did some research on the historicity and, and all the things right and, and logically also concluded in fact, Jesus is who did exist in that time is alive now is who he says he is. I love that right.

1:14:07 It's it's not by faith only that you can believe that Jesus is real and God is real. So I, I think that's great. But you had an encounter where you felt like God spoke to you in that encounter and you said you felt afraid. So that indicates A presence that you believe you experienced as well. Not just words or a thought or a concept, but a presence. Is that true?

1:14:42 Yes. And you describe being afraid around that presence and, and I, I would love to hear what that presence was. Can you describe the presence and not just the words? The presence was and from, you know, when I said it was kind of like an explosion of ideas, you know, I'm asking the question and, and this is significant to me because it's, it had happened again with that like collision of, of thoughts. Like there was not a fraction of a second for me to come up with that thought on my own.

1:15:31 It was intersecting as I finished it was said and aside from the words, the presence was kind of felt exposed like and again, I don't I don't know why I didn't have any frame of reference for it, but I felt like she's right here sees me like in this moment. I just I felt exposed is really the only way that I can describe it.

1:16:11 And but in that feeling exposed and knowing, it's kind of like you think you should be ashamed, but you don't feel that, you know, like, you know, God's telling me he's real and I didn't feel like he was like gotcha of it was I can't say that I felt like the the feeling of love that I did after, you know, and since I was more in awe and I, I felt, I can't say accepted, you know, it's almost like I am.

1:17:10 Thanks for finally asking and and come on. And I was like, come where? Like what do you like? I'm just mad at people for giving empty sympathy. Like what? What's happening now? And I just, I, I couldn't say no. That's incredible because you think, OK, does she a word pop? People have word pop words pop into their head all the time.

1:17:41 OK, got that. The you describe a presence. There's not a presence when a word pops in your head. And when you describe it, I hear it is almost like as you're babbling on finish shooting. It's almost like he talks over you for a second at the at the what should be the tail end of it is like I am. But I love the ways that you're attempting to describe the presence.

1:18:14 It's the presence, and you say that the presence remained. Is that right? Through today, through as I sit here. What does it feel like right now? Right now, I feel like I am on like I was invited on a mission kind of you know, we talk about missionary work, you know, being in another country or being never. But you know, when I just like I had said that I was all in, you know, and again, it wasn't without I have I've had more half hearted surrenders than anybody I know I have and I think that I can describe it like this. I had no idea that any of the Bible, that anyone would have disputed anything in it, or that anyone glazed over parts of it. I knew that what I learned in religion wasn't true. This was presented to me.

1:19:27 I found it to be true. So since it's true, I believe it. So all of the, whether it's the supernatural things, the Holy Spirit things, the, you know, the fact that God knows everything I'm doing as I'm doing it before I do it. I never had a sense of having to be phony. You know, he knows who I am and he's, it says it in Scripture, you know, and everything that I've ever felt, any, any. Feeling I've ever had anything, I can put it back to Scripture for validation of whether it's me, you know, because I certainly have times where I think I need to do something, but I test everything against Scripture and I just do what he says.

1:20:26 It's not always easy, you know, I've had to forgive things when there were no apologies. I've had to like if I'm struggling with something and say, you know, what am I instructed to do? I do it. That's not always a simple task. It, you know, I, if I looked at it from another perspective, it would kind of seem burdensome, but it's always with a relief of, you know, it being a gift that when you do what God instructs you to do, even if it's hard when you get through it, you say, I couldn't have dreamed this up, you know, if I tried.

1:21:17 And so there are times when you know, and again, this had happened 8 years ago and I have been when I say consumed, consumed with the Holy Trinity and the truth of Jesus ever since, you know, my free time. And and this isn't a certain like I, I'll often tell people like I told our kids, look, following Christ does not have to be me or you seeing the things that I do because I remember from a secular world, if you would see me, you know, getting up early in the morning to spend time in God's presence and to read Scripture and to watch expedition Bible and listen to people's testimonies.

1:22:08 That's not a requirement for salvation. That's what I love to do. And I know that from a secular perspective, if you're thinking, oh, if I want, you know, salvation, these are the rules. I got to do that. So I'm always like, don't, don't look it. Don't look at what I'm doing. You know, it's not nothing I'm doing is securing my salvation. I am just in love with and completely enamored with the Lord and it consumes me every day and I just love every second of it.

1:22:43 That's amazing. It's just amazing to hear, especially coming from where you came from. The Bible is beautiful and it's fascinating to me and the revelation that I get about who God is and, and there is really powerful. There is the application of the teachings of Scripture. Love your enemy, right?

1:23:12 Love the Lord your God. There's there's so many things that are in Scripture that we apply. And then there's the experiencing of God's presence. How is your life not just what might be considered the religious practice of applying the teachings to your life and an actual experiencing of God? Well, the the changes in my life since then and which again, I loved my life at the time, so I don't have any. It wasn't.

1:23:53 I wasn't trying to shake anything, but the the reality of God being in everything, knowing everything, being sovereign, you know, where some people would try to hide things from God. I loved that so much. It's like you see me and everything that I think and that I do and confession isn't a, oh, what am I going to go and tell him?

1:24:23 You already knew I did it. You already knew it was coming. So my repentance is a relationship of, you know, you seeing that, knowing it, loving me anyway. And that's where for me that the I guess I don't know what they call it, the sanctification process or something. Again, I had no, these words didn't mean anything to me until the last, you know, few years. But for instance, I was a I was a big drinker and not in a bad way.

1:24:57 You know, I would say I didn't have any rock bottom. I didn't get hangovers. I didn't I had a great time. My husband and I would go home after work and it was like happy hour for us everyday, you know, have cocktails till we went to bed, make dinner together, had a blast. We have a house in a lake up where we live and we would go there for the weekends and play Otzie and watch movies and a grand old time. And I remember one time being up at our our house there and I prayed, Lord, please don't take this from me. You know, I don't have to lose this, do I? We have so much fun.

1:25:32 And I was like, I don't, you know, I just don't want to do that. And I knew we already knew what I was feeling. So it didn't matter that I was being real with him, you know, which is such a gift. You know, I don't ever go before him and say, uh, I'm just going to hide this one little part because I'm ashamed.

1:25:49 And like you already know, and you know, and he didn't at that point. And then I don't know how it was years later, I had been learning more about the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit. And you know, these things were revealed to me very, you know, slowly along the way of, of how God was working in my life and things that he wanted for me.

1:26:30 And in prayer, I was, it was being stirred in me that, you know, I do have better things for you. I know this is fun, but I have better things for you if you ever want them. And you know, and again, I don't know the time frames, but then I went through a period of where I just really felt that I should stop drinking hard liquor and just being real with God. I was like, but if I could have wine, that would be great, you know, because we're social people or social circle and you know, and then I had kind of lost my taste for hard liquor. I was like a vodka and club soda soda drinker for the longest time.

1:27:20 And but wine, I kept drinking wine and it wasn't an issue for me. So when I had that of not drinking hard liquor anymore and it was very, I was really happy about it. I was like, man, you know, the mornings are a little different. I didn't think. And I again, I didn't suffer with hangovers or anything like that, but I was having a different life experience that was more joyful to me. And then we were going to Florida on a trip and when we got there, there was no Internet in our condo. And you know, it's a big cement building. They make those things to withstand hurricanes now. So there's no data, there's no Internet, there's no TV. It's like 9:00 at night.

1:28:12 And we can't get it back till the next day. So I'm sitting there and, and it had only been maybe six months or so that I that I hadn't had hard liquor. And I'm there with my husband. We're on vacation, you know, he's still tolerating and but not understanding, you know, all the things that I've gone through over these years.

1:28:36 And so it's presented. He's like, oh, I'm going to make a drink. Can I get you anything? And I was like I said to Lord and I and I prayer, I said I am going to have a couple of drinks with him tonight. And this was the start of like a 10 or 11 day vacation. And I was like, please, please don't let me fall back into what I was doing before. Like, I don't want this to be a part of my everyday life, but it's day one of vacation, you know? I know 10 days can throw you right back into, you know, And I was like, just please protect me from that because I don't want that.

1:29:12 I really don't right now. There's nothing to do. We're on vacation. He's asking me to have a drink with him. I feel like I should. I'm just asking you for that protection that I don't continue this. So we had a couple drinks, went to bed at like 11 and I woke up about 5:00 in the morning sick as a dog. I went into the bathroom.

1:29:35 No, I don't get sick from drinking. I could count on one hand at that point how many times I'd thrown up in my life over anything. And and I was sitting there and I went into the bathroom and this again, I heard, I heard God in my spirit say to me, because I'm like holding my head in my hands over the garbage can and I'm sitting in there saying, I don't what is happening?

1:30:02 And I heard him say, go back to bed, child. And that was that was audible in my mind. And then in my spirit, I felt it impressed upon me saying you asked me for protection and this is your correction. You need me for this and I'm going to do this for you. But you're not alone. Go back to bed, you'll be fine later. And and I did.

1:30:37 And from that moment, I don't know how many times, a handful of times since then, because this was several years ago. If I drink hard liquor, I'm throwing up. You got sick that night. Yeah, the whole. But that was when I woke up and again, it wasn't enough. Like I could drink, I could drink and I did not have any physical effects from it as far as being I'll so that only having two or three early in the night, going to bed, getting up at 5:00 in the morning and being physically I'll like that was not anything in my history. And he said, I heard the go back to bed child. And I don't know why it was those words differently than I felt the impression on my spirit that this is your correction and I'm going to give you this

1:31:40 protection from now on. I was like, OK, like I'm OK, thank you. Was actually because I had never like, it was so loving. It wasn't like I told you not to drink anymore, Lisa. It was, you know, it's OK. I understand why you're in this position, but you're probably going to be in this position often.

1:32:02 But if you're physically I'll from it, you'll think about it. People around you, you know, won't because I've never been encouraged to, you know, have drinks in any kind of like a peer pressure way. But I am very in between a secular and spiritual world. You know, I was 43 years old, 44 years old and, you know, and, and God wants me there because there are people coming to Christ because of my relation, not because of my relationship with him, but knowing them and him working in their lives. Like there are things happening.

1:32:44 So I got that with, with that. And again, and I had tried to a few other times, you know, in social settings and stuff like, oh, I'll have a couple of drinks. And again, throwing up laying on the floor of my bedroom. Just a couple of drinks. Throwing up and no, and they're going like, you know, kind of like what we talked about this and I'm not and I'm not upset about it.

1:33:08 I'm for time. I'm like, Lord, thank you for that, like. You developed you developed in a a natural aversion that keeps you from being sucked back into that place. I mean, go go to your favorite pizza joint and get food poisoning one time and that might be the last time you go back certainly and order that pizza, that's for sure. And yeah.

1:33:32 And didn't stop me forever. Like I said, I had several other experiences with it and every time it was a very loving, well, you know why? And I'm like, and yeah, I know, I know. I'm answering your. Prayers and I appreciate it and thank you because I don't want to continue on in that, but I am a human person who you know, is in these situations and sometimes I that's what I do.

1:34:04 And then you know what the with the being able to continue drinking wine and like wine and seltzers, like how about low alcohol content things? That's we'll stick with that and again said fine, that's what you want. Like, go ahead. Yeah, we think of God as a condemning, absolute God. And yeah. But and then from that and we were down in when I had been finding out the fruit of the spirit and again that these are in there. So these are gifts for you if you want them like, oh, I want these like they're, you know, these I had avoided, you know, you kind of go like, I don't know if I'm ready for that. And again, because I didn't have any, any religion in any of this, this is just my relationship with God and the experiences I was having.

1:35:00 Like you say, you know me, you know the hairs on my head, you're sovereign, You know what I'm doing. You know that I'm pursuing you because you pursued me. However that interaction happened. But I am just in this relationship with you all day, every day. And, you know, sometimes I'm just not ready to do things and I've never been met with any condemnation from him with that. Now the realizations after I will listen. I'm always like, oh, I should have gotten to that sooner because this is way better, you know, than like with the with the wine back.

1:35:39 I don't know if it's a year and a half ago or so, it was presented to me that that like it how health and Wellness and what you eat and things like that can become an idol because you're looking to that rather than, you know, bringing it to God first. And in my secular life, I have say I have there are I can't eat anything with weed in it.

1:36:13 I have a an inflammatory reaction to it. And it was found out like 20 some years ago. So I was always geared into like, oh, if you eat this or eat that or, you know, low carb this or healthy that. And it was something that I thought about a lot. It took up a lot of my brain energy. And I was whether I read something or heard somebody talking, but it was brought to my attention through prayer that it was kind of an idol for me. And it was I was spending a lot of time on that. So I started praying about self-control and being led by the spirit for all of my daily things and that I don't have to pour all of this energy into wondering what I'm supposed to eat or what I'm supposed to do

1:36:57 this. Like it's just taking away from my time that I could be paying attention to what God has for me. And, and I don't want any idols. So there are things like I'm like, you tell me that I don't want to put anything before the Lord and you know, I don't feel ashamed of myself because he knows I'm asking for help And the so I was praying about self-control and not that I had any like eating issues. It was just that, you know, you don't have to worry about what you eat.

1:37:30 You don't have to worry about what you wear. Like all those things it says in Scripture, you don't have to. So I didn't want to. And so through this rare time and it had been several months and then we were in Florida for a couple weeks in the beginning of January, 2 January's ago and down there and we were like out to lunch.

1:37:51 And over that couple of weeks when we would go out, I don't know, I'd order a glass of wine and I was like, guys, I don't know, it doesn't taste good. And I'd get something else and I'd get something else and OK, order me a seltzer, order me again, all these low alcohol things because that's my, you know, agreement and just nothing, nothing tasted right.

1:38:14 And I was like, oh, said we've been, we've been talking about self-control and things that, you know, because when you're, when I would, you know, consume alcohol, I was always like, oh, how many, how many did I have? How many it takes if you want to manage not getting drunk, if you care about, you know, whether you're going to be able to go to sleep at night.

1:38:41 And again, not a guilt thing. This is how I was before. You're managing that, you know, just like you're managing. You're managing everything. You're managing your money, You're managing your time. You're managing your what you're eating, what you're drinking. And so when I thought I was like, oh, time for me to move on from this.

1:39:01 And I was like, yeah, I said, OK, that's, you know, I said, if you have something better for me, I'll, that's cool. And so when I came home, my husband had to go on to another week down in Florida for a business trip. And I went home and I sat in my prayer couch and I said, you know, I just prayed. And I said, if this is what you want for me, you know, I'm in I I don't feel like I need to ask you to continue this anymore, But and like you have to do it because this has been, you know, 20 some odd years of my life and everyone that I know at least drinks wine, like whenever you get together, whenever you're doing something.

1:39:44 And I just didn't want it again. And I didn't tell anybody or, you know, like sing it from the rooftops. I just was like, day-to-day is again when it's not you. I don't know what to predict. I didn't do this. You know, the Holy Spirit did this for me and I don't know. I don't know what that means, but I'm in, I'm in.

1:40:08 And it was probably like a month later or so, we were out for dinner and I ordered a club soda with cranberry. And my husband was like, do you just not drink anymore? I said, I don't know. I guess not. I said I don't, I don't want it. Like I just don't have an appetite for it. And there was no, I wasn't asking for, I wasn't like, you know, it wasn't a problem.

1:40:31 It wasn't a condemnation. It was just, you know, Holy Spirit saying we're, we're going to go do other things now. I've got something better for you. You know, it's, I think that I love the way you explain that. I think that's so powerful. And God does different things different ways for different people.

1:40:48 I know. But it's so interesting to watch him. It's not so much walking you out of that as it is to me at least walking you into something else that leaves some of that behind. And rather than it being a, a super condemning legalistic thing, it's I, I just love the way of that because people will think, you know, I, I need to stop this or I need to start this or whatever.

1:41:20 And it's going to be a hard slog and discipline and painful and all this other stuff. And maybe it needs to be right. When I talk to people who, and I talked to plenty of people who have just decided. But most people though, when they had addictions or, or in this case even I, I can't tell you how many people say it just went away.

1:41:48 I mean, I lost my taste for it and it's the craziest thing because I, I had a massive, I just don't know what to tell you. It went away. And I think that's, I think that's the way that God does that a lot of times. It's very interesting to hear your relationship with alcohol and, and God and how he didn't condemn you for it. He's like, oh, you want to stop the hard liquor stuff? OK, so let's create a diversion, Not a diversion, but an aversion to it.

1:42:27 And then over time, you just began to lose your taste such that your husband of all people say you just not drink anymore. Is that what's going on? I don't know. Just kind of don't have a taste for it anymore. That's so cool. And I know that I can't because back during and not that I couldn't like I didn't have any physical need for it. And I wasn't like, oh, I came home after a hard day. I really want this.

1:42:55 I just enjoyed it, you know, I just enjoyed it. I. Understand that. And back during COVID, our daughter got pregnant with our first grandchild. And when she got pregnant, I was like, oh, he was born on March 15th of 2020. So that was like the day the lockdowns happened. We were in the hospital and they're like, you know, oh, this is happening right now. So when she got pregnant, I thought, oh, I'm going to cut back on what I drink because I'm going to be a grandmother. I don't want to be the person who like, oh, you can't call her at 7:00.

1:43:35 She's probably, you know, 3 cocktails in, you know, if something happened, I wanted to be available. My human side wanted to be available for our daughter if she needed anything. That's right. So I said, oh, well, you know, I'm going to, you know, cut back on this so I'm not in that situation. And then when, you know, everybody was stuck in their homes and I was still working the, you know, it just all came back because what else are you going to do?

1:44:02 I can't see my daughter anyway. You know, she's at her house, We're at ours, you know, because for that first six weeks when you weren't allowed to interact with anybody. So, you know, I just had that reasoning to go back to doing what I was doing. So I had found human reasons to stop before I failed at it. And the, you know, when it became a decision made between God and me, it was just a completely different scenario. And, you know, at that point, you know, I don't know if that's maybe four or five years into my having a relationship with Christ is that, you know, you kind of know when something is, you know, when you're working on something with God and when you're not.

1:45:01 And I just knew that that's what it was. And I said, if you don't want this for me anymore, I'm, I'll stop. And that, you know, and it, and it's not any kind of, aside from me losing my taste for it to drink all the time now. Like if we go out to dinner and we're at a nice Italian restaurant, I can enjoy a glass of red wine with what I'm eating and taste it and it's delicious and it's an accompaniment to your dinner, you know, or if my.

1:45:32 Without it becoming 4, right? It has, yeah. It has nothing to do with me wanting to engage in consuming alcohol. I'm enjoying a drink. And that's not in my experience or other, you know, people's human experiences that that becomes possible. You know, I mean, it, it wasn't being presented to anyone that I knew as I was an alcoholic. And now I'm not.

1:45:57 This was just a change in my life that I couldn't, didn't do without God. And you know, there's nothing legalistic about it. You didn't discipline yourself into it successfully. It was a challenge that it was something you'd try to do before previously, but the world. Gives you reasons to continue your habits.

1:46:20 There's nothing wrong with discipline, right? And discipline yourself Anything but it's a when it happens supernaturally, it's really cool. And it can look differently in that way. Let me ask you this, what are some of the big things that you that you understand now that you missed before your experience?

1:46:44 Well, one of the biggest things is that, you know, so our children, I went to each one of them and just said, look, I, I've been the voice of reason for our family for as long as we've been together. This happened, this is real. I understand why it doesn't make any sense to you, but know that you know what I'm telling you is the truth.

1:47:07 And again, I was where they were. So I had no expectations that they were going to say, oh, because you, you know, believe in Jesus as your savior. I am going to, I said just keep it in mind and then just loved them. I don't, you know, I know how I was when people would try to bring anything to me.

1:47:27 It's there's no point in hitting anybody over the head with your Bible. There's just in my experience, people that I know know I love Jesus anywhere I go, if there's an opportunity for me to tell them and that's it. I love Jesus and then I love them. It's the extent of my being an evangelist. And so our oldest is a very logical, rational man.

1:47:55 And he, I asked him if it was OK to share this because it's his testimony. But he, when I talked to him about it and I was like, look, I've, you know, I've never lied to you. You know that I'm not crazy. And I explained to him and I said, I get why you don't know this or why you don't understand it, but just hear what I'm saying to you. And he said, I don't understand what you're saying. He's like, I don't, He said, I don't want to say I don't believe you, but I don't believe it. And I said, that's fine.

1:48:27 That's fine. I said I just, you know, just shared it with him years later. And when I would pray, it's again, I don't worry about my kids salvation. Bible says, don't worry. God says he's got it. I pray for them. I live my faith. And, you know, I know that what he has done for me is available to everybody at some point or another.

1:48:51 And I'm so I just don't concern myself with it, but I'll pray for them. And I would say I was like, Lord, I wonder how you're going to get him? Like if I thought I was a logical, rational, evidence based person, like he's blown me out of the water. Like that'll probably be, you know, on my deathbed.

1:49:10 And I'm in my 90s and he's only 14 years younger than I am. So he I said he might say, you know, maybe she was on to something. Maybe this is something I should consider. But I couldn't in any way, shape or form have thought of what was going to happen. So I guess it was 2 1/2 years ago we were out.

1:49:33 My husband and son are in the same industry and we were out for a holiday dinner. And he just seemed out of sorts. And, you know, when you know your kid, you can just tell when something's not right. And this is now like, five years in from when I was saved. And I sent him a text from my work. And I said, I said, you seemed really out of sorts last night. Like, are you OK?

1:49:56 Is something going on? And he asked if he could call me. And he called me. And he said, you know, bear with me. He said, but listen to this. And he tells me that he within the week or the two weeks that he had meditated. Now, let me back up when, when I was first saved, I watched people's testimonies as soon as I found them, I just wanted to, I felt like I was hearing somebody who was speaking my language. And that was, I had no Christian friends, you know, I had a church I was going to, but I devoured people's testimonies. And as I saw that everyone came from different places and everyone's story was different, I started watching things from different backgrounds because if I ever came across somebody who needed guidance, you know, if it

1:50:52 was on a topic I didn't know anything about, I could say, you know, that wasn't my experience. But there are people who went through what you're going through. So like, let's get to that. You know, whether it was someone dealing with New Age or which I had no idea what that was, or, you know, people leaving a sinful lifestyle, whether that was addiction or homosexuality or anything like that, I just consumed people's testimonies. And so I had an idea of what he was about to tell me from listening to other people's stories. And he said that he had meditated, you know, I don't know what he was watching or what he was getting into, but something with like that new Agey, like third eye chakra business, whatever it is.

1:51:47 And he said that he did this and nothing really happened the first time. And he said he did it again. And this was even out of character for him because I was like, you're meditating like you're can never would have crossed my mind that he would have done this. And he said that he had this wild experience of what he called at the time like an enlightenment.

1:52:13 He said at that moment, he felt like he had solved all of the world's problems. He thought, this is this is it. This is what everybody should be doing. He said that he had a, that he had stopped, he had some habits that he wasn't a fan of. He said they were immediately gone with stuff. And then he, you know, pretty much was like all this other stuff is garbage, like this is where it's at. And he said about two or three days later, everything started getting really dark and he was having like visions and demonic experiences and he didn't know what they were. And he said he wasn't sure why or where it came from, but he remembered something and he called out to Jesus and Jesus saved him.

1:53:07 And he said, and I am a Christian now and I don't know what that means. And I was like. What? I was, I was facing a window in this office building where I worked and I was on the phone and I'm like, you're, you're kidding me. He's like, I, I said, you called out to Jesus, Jesus saved you. And he was like, and now I don't, I don't know what to do.

1:53:31 And I said, Oh my gosh, Shane, I said, this is wild. I said, I don't, I was like, I don't even know what to tell you right now, because I always wondered, I always wondered how God would get you. I said, and this is not anything, anything that I ever could have imagined. And that led to he had a good solid year, year and a half of it was very difficult. There's a lot of darkness.

1:53:59 He struggled with a lot of with a lot of things that have intrusive thoughts. And had I not known that it was God, I would have taken him to a doctor. And that's how I knew because I have a history with mental illness in my family with psychotic breaks. I've seen them. You know, I now question whether that was what my mother was going through or if it was spiritual. I don't know.

1:54:27 But it wasn't even considered. You know, she was medicated hard. And that was, you know, that's how her life continued. And had I not understood what God can do? And knowing that what he was telling me is true, you know, if you were in that in darkness and you call out to Christ, he will save you.

1:54:51 It was a genuine cry for help. He answered him and his bewilderment at that point made absolute sense. And we went on this journey of like I said, it was not. It wasn't easy. When I said, I remember saying, do you want to tell Dad or should I? And he's like, you can tell him. And you know, and again, my husband has no frame of reference for this, didn't even really know what meditating was like, you know, and I lived that life with him. So I understood that it was going to be hard for him to understand.

1:55:31 And you know, I just said the this is what happened. And you know, his take was he was like, you're indulging this. And I said, please don't like just don't question. I said, you know, that I would never put our kids in harm harm's way. You know that I said this is a spiritual thing that's happening and that's what's going to help him. This is an A go to the psychiatrist and I just LED it at that because I didn't want both of us being put in a straitjacket and and sent off.

1:56:01 So over that, you know, throughout his trials with that, because he was his heels were dug into a secular lifestyle really hard and his whole life was, you know, entrenched in, you know, what the world considers success. And so in handling it from a spiritual aspect and praying and there were, you know, moments where you know that God is there like at one point, and it was very long after the intrusive thoughts were an issue for a long, long time.

1:56:46 And at one point I had, you know, I was praying for being able to help him and I prayed. I said, if you can show me what he's going through that and give me guidance for him for somebody here, like I know through prayer, but he needs somebody here. And I experienced intrusive thoughts for longer than I'd wanted to, But I it was that the Lord was allowing me to experience what he was experiencing to help him through it.

1:57:19 And that in, in experiencing that I was in in prayer about it and revealed to me that if all of these things had been relieved from him too soon, that he would have drifted back to his previous life. And with that, you know, because then I brought that to him the next day we were talking and I said, Hey, does this resonate with you at all?

1:57:55 And he said, it does. He said, because whenever I start to feel better, I start going, ah, that was nothing. And going back. And I said, well, so then settle in because this is where you're going to be for a little while. And he was so convinced that Christ was the way to go, that he was willing to deal with that to continue, you know, going through what he had to go through to, to kind of get it locked in because there was, you know, a concern of drift for him. And, and then once I understood that and I relate it to him and that was confirmed, I was freed from it. And, you know, when I was able to relate to him and I said that was awful.

1:58:48 I'm so, so sorry that that's what you have to go through. But you know, that's just where you are. Yeah, that's amazing. That's an amazing story. And and I know that there was the answer to a lot of your prayer. I'm sure the question was, you know, what are some big things that you understand now that you didn't understand previously? What's the big thing there is that in that situation? That mental illnesses often times spiritual. Yeah, that's, we could have a whole full on conversation. We've had several episodes here where we've had those discussions and I, I, I think often how many people were just put away because we don't know how to deal with this. And it was a totally spiritual

1:59:41 issue that could have been potentially resolved through Deliverance. Just flat out, just right there. Park it, stop. Stop with the medications and all the other things that exacerbated the problem actually and and basically open doors to more demonic activity. I think I think the world is going to become more awakened to that than what we have in these previous decades.

2:00:14 Any other big things? I mean, gosh, you are, you are entrenched in your opposition to religion and Christianity and understandably, and maybe rightfully so, unfortunately, God was also in that pocket of things that you were in opposition to. I'm interested to know if there are other things. It's like, OK, here's where I was deceived. These are the things that I understand now that I know God to the degree I know Him versus what I understood truth to be prior to that.

2:00:52 I mean, I, I've heard it said before, like with the like veil being lifted, like everything, you know, in the upside down world, you know, everything that is that I thought was true or ways that you should live just are not. And it's been shown to me through all of the experiences that I've had and answered prayer.

2:01:28 And I mean, even where I was, my career was in property management. When I was very young, I got a secretary's job and they taught me everything. And to where back just almost three years ago, I worked for a company and I was a regional manager. I oversaw all of their properties in Pennsylvania, had a very successful career. I was very respected in my job, in my community, you know, because I did have a moral compass even before I was saved. So I was never one to like put my ambitions over somebody else's.

2:02:14 But just because, you know, my right and wrong. But that was my, that was my career. That's what I did. And now I'm literally a servant. I take care of people in their homes a few hours a week. And it was I was led out of that because God had other things for me to do. And being LED out of that, again, being like a spiritual experience because I bring everything to him. And there were things happening, changes happening in the company that were kind of pointing a little more towards being operated out of greed than, you know, than just business. And things were being presented to me that were I was going to have to, you know, bend my integrity to continue justifying holding the position I was in

2:03:13 because I was in the decision making level. So, you know, again, going back to Scripture and God knows how I struggled with it and how long I struggled with what I should do because I've been in that career for a long time and I made a lot of money and my, you know, husband, I'm sure he had a successful career financially as well.

2:03:37 And you know, I was getting to where thing happened and I said I can't do this anymore. Like, I can't, I would have to be a liar to say that some of our, you know, policies were for everyone and not, you know, you work under fair housing laws. There's no Gray area. So I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to leave this job, you know, been there for a long time. I had six weeks vacation.

2:04:03 I had car money, I had, you know, a great salary and I was young. It would only go up from there, you know, all these things. And I was like, so I so I'm, I'm done with this. And I was not ever a career driven person. Like this was just the, you know, the benefits of showing up on time for work and doing what you say you'll do. You know, that's kind of gone to the wayside in the business world.

2:04:28 So it was just from my, you know, my interactions and knowing things and kind of climbing up that ladder. It wasn't an intention, but I was there and it was, you know, felt rewarding. And so when this was happened, I was like, I was actually in reading the journal that I told you I kept, I was reading through when this happened last night. And and I had during that time, I had received a vision at at night one night and I couldn't sleep of God's hand. And the I, I couldn't.

2:05:06 And I wrote that I couldn't tell if I heard it or if I saw the words or whatever it was, but it was the, the Psalm 23. And then under it I had all of these scripture references. And when I went back and was looking them up, it was, you know, through Proverbs, Proverbs and Psalms of, you know, not if you rub elbows with the wicked, they don't become good, you become wicked. And I had seen that there was a pattern of mine where like, I would stand up for things and say like, Hey, you know, I don't think that this is a great way to go. It would be overruled.

2:05:45 And then it would become normal to me. And then there were a couple of bigger things where God was showing me like, it's, dude, we're done with this now. And my boss at the time, we had a very close relationship. He is Hasidic and we were both, he knew of my faith and that was one of the things that he really appreciated about me.

2:06:09 Like, he knew, even though he was Jewish, he knew that as a faithful Christian woman that I had to operate, didn't have to, but that he could sense that I would operate in ways that would be pleasing to God. And that's a nice employee to have. But when we talked about it, you know, he said there are things, you know, that I can see where you're compromising for this. And if you can leave here, I, I don't suggest you don't. It's like I am going to suffer for it. But so I decided to go and from that and God walking me out of that and then a couple of other things, because at that point I'm still like, OK, well, if I'm leaving this, I have to make sure I'm, you know, I have to make up for at least half of this income and going that

2:07:00 route. And I can just feel God always saying like, OK, go ahead, go do what you think you have to do. Like when you're done exhausting your self-sufficiency resources, like can we work together? So I had, you know, come up with a couple of plans on my own and, you know, did a couple of things and then down to where I thought that I was leaving full time work all together for, because the jobs I was taking when you hold that position that I had, there are a lot of flexibility.

2:07:34 There's a lot of vacation time and I didn't have that and it was kind of clashing with our personal life. And so I said I, I just won't work for the time being and see what happens. We had an appointment with our financial guy and I just said, consider my contribution to our retirement for at least the next year as $0.00.

2:07:56 Like I don't know what I'm doing. And he's a, a Christian. And I said, I don't, we don't, we're not sure what's happening, but I had to give this up and I just surrendered it. I was like, Lord, I don't know what you want me to do, but you know, we have things. If you want us to keep them, we'll keep them.

2:08:13 If you don't, we won't. No matter what we do, none of it's ours. It's all yours. So I'm not going to worry about it. And you know, my husband also, who's like, hey, this is what you know, we have to do. It's what we have to do. And so I gave it up. I surrendered it. I left it at his feet. I it was like, you know, unwinding self-sufficiency is really hard and, and I surrendered it. And at that time, my husband, who also had been in his company for a very long time, somebody was pursuing him in the same industry.

2:08:54 And he took a couple weeks after we decided that I wasn't working at all, he got this job offer. And it was the exact amount of money of what the job that I was leaving at that point was the one that I took for half of my income. And what he was leaving combined was the exact dollar amount of those two things. And I was like, and you know, that whole year for a while, I thought, oh, you know, I was just interfering in God's plans. I'm like, that's not even possible. Like who?

2:09:30 Whenever I think that, I'm like, who do you think you are? You're not interfering in God's plans. God knows you. He knows that you're going to need this time that you're going to do these things and it's in his timing and to show you that this is what he wants for you. And now from there, do what, you know, just continue the path, walk with, you know, walk with him.

2:09:59 And that led me into I do part time caregiving for the elderly in their homes. And you know, again, you go in, I'm thinking this is because God wants me to help people. He wants me to serve people and he does. But there was one person that really latched onto. It was one of my first people I've ever went to.

2:10:23 I'm from a real estate background, going into people's homes to give them care. I don't know what I'm doing, but it's a hard industry to get people to work in. And it's pennies like I it may cost me to go to work. I never really, I don't think about it, but this person, I noticed his wife's obituary was on the refrigerator and it's noted in it that she was did Bible study.

2:10:58 And so I just said, because again, to find a way to just let people know I love Jesus. And I said, oh, I said your wife's in Bible study, you know, I do that too. And he said he said that was nice for her, but I don't believe any of that stuff. And I said, OK, it's another story. It's not, you know, unless God tells me to say something, I don't say it.

2:11:18 So, you know, we develop a really nice relationship. And Easter weekend last year, he asked me, he said what? It was a Saturday. He said, what is what is today called of this religious holiday? You have, I said Saturday. I said, you mean like I said, have you heard like, you know, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, today's Saturday, tomorrow's Easter.

2:11:52 I said, Easter is, you know, when Jesus was crucified and, and resurrected and he's like, you know, and he starts talking to me and I can't even tell you what what we spoke about, but I sat down and I was done. I like clock down on my phone because I'm like, I'm sitting here and having this conversation. And he started giving me all of the reasons why he thought it wasn't true.

2:12:20 And, you know, I was answering him and the answers were coming from all of the logical things I had to find from all of like the things that I'm like, you know, you always think that you're learning something just for you. And so these answers are coming out and we're having a very like rational, logical conversation about the history of Christ along with the, you know, miracles and a couple things of what I, you know, had gone through. And then I explained the upside down world of I said, you know, I said, I believe that I'm here because your wife is praying for you.

2:13:04 And I explained to him, I said, this is who I was said and I had all of the, you know, worldly respect a person could have. And I said, God had me come here and do this. And I said, and I believe that I'm here because your wife was praying for you and that I could answer these questions that you have because I know the answers. And so we were done and he got up and went in the living room and I was helping him in because I would always leave him sit in his recliner.

2:13:37 He's an old man. And, and he was walking over and his wife's stack of books were still on the floor. She had like daily devotionals in her Bible and stuff like that out. And he pointed over to them and he said she used to read those. And I asked if you wanted me to read what she would have been reading today.

2:13:57 And when I read that devotion, it had to do with part of the conversation we had in the kitchen. And I went over to him and he before that, he asked what the date was and he had his newspaper and it was April 19th, I think it was. And then that's when I looked at the April 19th read that he said, you know, I still believe what I believed when we were sitting in the kitchen.

2:14:27 And I just laughed a little. And I said, that's OK. I said, I still believe what I believe when we were sitting in the kitchen. And he started laughing. And he goes, I'm really glad you said that. I was hoping you would say that Said OK. And he said, how did he put it? He said, it's never been explained to me the way that you spoke to me and I'm inclined to believe you. And I said, well, I said, well, that's good news. He goes, but I don't.

2:15:03 He said he goes, he goes, something very mystical is going on here. And this is not a person who would ever say mystical. He said today's my sister's birthday. That April, that date that it was. I keep wanting to say April 19th, but it may or may not have been. He said, and she was really like Churchy too.

2:15:25 And, and he said, I just feel like something's happening. And I said, well, I said I can't, you should pray. And he said, I don't know how to pray. And I said, well, I'll tell you how I was praying for you in the kitchen while I was washing your dishes earlier. I said, because I just said, Lord, it would be really, really great if he could come to know you and be saved before he dies.

2:15:50 I said, and then I just kept washing your dishes and he said, that's it. I said that's it. I said, you sit down and ask God to, you know, give you what if he's interacting with you right now? I said, sit here after I go and pray. I said, your wife was praying for you. And then he said, you know what? That's another thing.

2:16:09 He said he took the wrong one first and I said, but he didn't. I said, because she's with Jesus now. I said, and he knew you needed more time and I said that's why I'm here and I left. And I'm telling you there is not a sale, a paycheck and anything that comes your way. That is the feeling you get when God puts you somewhere for something like that and let you be a part of what he's doing.

2:16:41 And thankfully I have a couple of people. When I got in the car, I'm like, Oh my gosh, you'll never know what happened. Oh, you have to hear. And, you know, like rejoicing with the angels, it's there is nothing, nothing that tops that. And if all the only reason that I was walked out of that career that I enjoyed and was very, you know, good to me was for that day, it's fine with me.

2:17:14 Yeah, you won't probably be recounting many of the more corporate days and your final days quite the same way that you will recount that day. I wouldn't think it's, it's a similar thing for me. I, I, I get to, I get to God lets me do this. And so I understand very much what you're saying. You know when you had the encounter, when you heard the I am, you were in a community of like minded people to you, not religious.

2:17:56 We we just that's not what we do. How has your community either responded since then or been affected? What's what's been the response in in your community? I know you mentioned your your oldest had an encounter and now is a Christian. Does he have the coffee mug by the way? No, we stopped handing out coffee mugs.

2:18:23 Now they're travel mugs. And I'm very, very aware when I hand somebody one that that's good. You know, going from somebody who was like, what is with this coffee mug to now I welcome people when, you know, when I'm there, we split our time between two homes, so. Your community. Our community so.

2:18:39 No, I'm like your personal, your people. How is it? Responding, you know, most people were I have they're decent people. So you know, when I would share what happened, I got a lot of oh, that's nice for you, Lisa. One that really stood out. Our girlfriend that my husband grew up with and then she and I became very close friends throughout our marriage.

2:19:07 I was over at at her house and I and I shared with her what happened and she said, it's really nice for you. And I said thanks. And that was the only I just wanted to share it. And so, you know, we went on about our business and the I live. I live my life to the best of my human ability with the Lord, like I live my faith. And not to say that I don't, you know, and it's not in any kind of religious way.

2:19:41 But so the people that I did share this with have seen me over the, you know, number of years. And I've not ever if you want to say like evangelized anybody. If somebody has a question for me of a question, if you don't, you don't, you know, I'm going to love you. And so this person. Is very very ingrained in a secular lifestyle like we all were but she had some other struggles. It was just maybe two years ago she called me on a Friday night crying I need Jesus said well thankfully for you and for me he's available 24/7.

2:20:30 I was like, you know what's going on? And you know, she, you know, and she has her own story, but being, you know, the world's an empty place. And when you keep searching the world for things, eventually, you know, it, it comes up short. And you know, from that I just said, but let's get together, let's talk.

2:20:51 You know, she came to church with us. And now I think that was almost two years ago next month, she's teaching our Bible and brunch and and again, never, ever. I was like really, Lord, I was like, wow, I didn't see that one coming. A friend of ours when I, he's been like 30 years or so in our lives.

2:21:18 When I told him, he said, oh, he was saved when he was a teenager. Like he knew what I was talking about, you know, and didn't, you know, lived his life how he was living it, but God was always there. Like he knew who he was. And he, you know, but didn't, I can't say he didn't make any changes. He was a Christian person who was living a secular lifestyle.

2:21:49 You know, he believes Jesus. He believes he saved him. But I had no idea, you know, we're friends for decades. I thought I was telling him something new about me. And he was just like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I love that. And that opened up dialogue between the two of us and he was he was struggling with something. And back a couple years ago, we sat on the back porch of our place up at the lake and he cried out to God and said he was ready to surrender the struggle to him. And he walked him through it and took it away from him. And it's just a part of our everyone in our community knows I love and follow Jesus and nobody feels threatened by it because that's not Christ.

2:22:39 You know, I love them the way God loved me then and loves me now. You know, I don't know there's any expectation, you know, like even coming down here, there was a, you know, go through these changes over the years of, you know, like the baby steps and, and God answered prayers for me in the beginning that couldn't have been anything but him.

2:23:08 You know, those things that you see orchestrated and, you know, and then walking me through and maturing me and my faith back A a few years ago, we had moved into an over 55 community. We sold our family home to our daughter and her family. And when I got there and I was going for a walk one day and it was a big change because we lived in a rural area and I wasn't, you know, completely comfortable where we were.

2:23:37 And I felt this like you're going to pray for people up at the clubhouse. I was like, no, I'm not. It's like wrong girl. Like that's not, I am not engaging with these people like just absolute like just and again, real with him because he knows I could have said like, Oh yes, Lord, I'll do whatever you want.

2:23:59 He knows I'm not being honest. So that went on periodically for like 3 years and back a few months ago it was really bugging me and I was like fine. And at before, I always thought if something was presented to me, I had to know what was going to happen later. You know, it was almost like, well, what do you want me to do when I pray?

2:24:24 What am I going to be leading a Bible study then? Like where are you going with this and taking responsibility for knowing or having to follow it through? Now, intellectually I know that's not the case. I, but I've not, I hadn't experienced that yet with him. So I would still get kind of overwhelmed with, I go and pray at the clubhouse. I don't know that I'm capable of whatever it is that you want me to do.

2:24:54 I know that that's not how you look at how you're supposed to look at things, but it's just where I was. And so then it was bugging me and bugging me. And I said fine. And there were some, you know, messages I'd heard from other people to not be concerned about those things. And I said, if this is you want me to do this, I'll do this. I don't know what it means, but I went on to our community page. I said, I'm going to go, you know, have my prayer time up at the clubhouse today.

2:25:24 If anyone wants to join me, I'll be there around 1:00. If you need prayer, ask for it. If you just want to join me, come on up. And then I went and got in the shower. I was like, no, I, I don't know what you want me to do with this. And you know, God knew that I was uncomfortable with it, but when I got out of the shower, I was getting responses to IT.

2:25:44 People are like, Oh, I wish I would have known ahead of time, you know, because I gave like a 2 hour window. Maybe part of me was like nobody will come. And I had a a group study that night. So I took my book up with me so I would have something to do in the event nobody came and nobody did come.

2:26:00 But I was getting these responses on there. One guy wanted to start a Bible study for Christians and non Christians. People were responding like, Oh, let me know next time, maybe if I have time. You know, they were receptive to it. But there was this one woman who was like, are are are you there?

2:26:18 Are you coming back? Like she was persistent. And I said, I'll meet with you. The wasn't the next Thursday, but the following because I was sick that next Thursday. And I said, you'll go up and meet with you. And I went up and met with her and you know, again, I'm like, Lord, whatever you have, I don't know what you want me to do with this. So I got there and she said, remember how she said it like, oh, So what are you doing?

2:26:43 And I said, I don't know. I said, what are you doing here? I said, because I said I and I explained, I said this is not something that I orchestrated. I said, but you coming here by yourself. I said, I just feel like this is This is why I posted that, because she was like, isn't anyone else coming? I said no.

2:27:06 And I'm not sure why, but you know, we're here now and that conversation, you know, has led to things for both of us. And we did start a Bible study together because she had never been to one. She wanted to, but was kind of afraid of people and, and going. And I said, well, I'll do one with you, you know, if that's, you know, something you want to get comfortable with. She mentioned a pastor that she listens to. So I went and I found a like a small group study thing that he had written and I got it and I ordered it. And this is another and you know what's God? I'm looking at it like I know this book cover and back a few days before a friend of mine at church, she was starting a new study in her small group.

2:27:59 And I was talking to somebody and she was like, hey, Lisa, she said, I'm starting this study with my small group. And I was like, great, good luck to you. Like it's not my small group like I and it wasn't, I didn't feel like annoyed or anything by it. It was just AI didn't need to know that at the time.

2:28:19 It wasn't anything She didn't share her topics with me. It wasn't something that we talked about. So it was just kind of one of those things that stick out and you say, what are you? Well, I don't know why she wanted to show that to me, but whatever. And I went on with my day, you know, here within a week, this woman's telling me that this is a pastor that she resonates with. I order this thing.

2:28:39 And it's that book, as I called her. And I said, is this the book like that you showed me? And she said, yeah, we're starting that with my small group. I said, oh, we're crying out loud. And it's on Revelations, which is one of the only books that I haven't really delved into because I'm like, everybody has different stances on it.

2:29:00 It doesn't it hadn't mattered to me like who? It's my salvation's not dependent on it. I don't feel like I'm supposed to be teaching anybody about it. I was very hands off with it. I read it a couple times and I was like, I don't know, whatever God wants to do, God can do. And so I was like, not only and I'm saying that that whole thing now for three years. This was the point of me bringing this up. I know I can ramble. 3 years he had been nudging me about this, you know, put out a notice to pray at the clubhouse, very generic.

2:29:40 And when I was up there and I started realizing what he was doing, I went to quick write down and I wrote it down in my journal book. And I was like, this has been, you know, for three years, blah, blah. And when I got to the bottom, I wrote, you know, I started feeling guilty for holding this up.

2:29:59 And then I realized that God knew it was going to take me 3 years to answer this. And His grace allowed me to be right on time. And that's just what life is now. What about your family? Closer Community. My I speak to, I've shared this with my brothers and sisters, you know, again, that's really nice for you, Lisa. And I get it because I was there, You know, they're actually like I said, nicer than I am, unless they're talking about me behind my back, because I would have gone home and said like, oh, that's what my sister said. And our children, our daughter after she had given birth to her first son, she had, you know, we have very close relationship. And she reached out to me the

2:31:00 one day and said that she needed to know more about Jesus. And I rushed over to her house the next morning and and spoke to her and got her a Bible. And, you know, she said that the miracle of birth, you know that when she saw that, you know, God reveals things to you. Yeah, it didn't to me, but I'm glad it did for her. And her two boys come to church with us, her husband. We we're from a small community.

2:31:35 So actually our church pastor grew up with our kids, with our oldest son anyway. And so, you know, you see, that's where I had said in the video, I see God moving. He's bringing people like people a comment on our row. They're like, get your row filling up. And I'm like, it's amazing what God does.

2:31:57 And to us, like when I talked to that girlfriend of ours who called me that Friday night, I'm like, Can you believe this? I said, I've known you for decades, Can you believe this? I said, look at, look at what God has done in our lives. I said that, you know, 15 years ago, we're just living life like anybody else, you know, just having picnics, just hanging out, just doing, you know, life, being all happy about, you know, careers and money and getting married and all these things that, you know, and I was like, and it's just, it's miraculous because there's no reason for it.

2:32:39 Like in our world, there was no I was just mad. And you know, that was eight years ago. I've managed to stay out of the mental ward. There's nothing crazy about me. I am not There is nothing that can convince me that what happened didn't happen. The the fruit, I guess you would call it, of my life and relationships now are all, you know, glory to God.

2:33:21 And when I was saying about that, like little answered prayers in the in the beginning where I wanted to share that, you know, I've, I've had to do well, I haven't. I've been praying and and receiving the help for unwinding those religious things because you know, they're in there. When that's ingrained in you, it's there.

2:33:49 And, you know, to not feel like I have to flog myself, you know, in repentance or, you know, or get, you know, I, I'm always aware of not becoming legalistic. Like I pray about that a lot. And it's been much easier over the last few years. In the beginning, I was pretty, you know, aware of, of, you know, the difference between those two things and that I, I struggled with it.

2:34:21 And so I had this friend in high school who I had not seen since I was like 18 years old and we got in trouble together and, you know, fooled around with like a cult stuff and things like it was not a great a great scene. And, you know, after high school, never saw or heard from her again. So within the first year of when I was saved, I get a message over Facebook from this man who says my wife wants me to wish you a happy birthday. If today's your birthday.

2:35:03 Told me her name, what her last name is now. And he said she doesn't have Facebook. So she asked me to reach out. And I'm like, oh, like I, I have enough secular friends. Like, I don't, I don't want to be any more ingrained in that. Like this friendship wasn't, you know, we were just kids fooling around, not knowing any better, but it wasn't the way that my life was going.

2:35:32 And I'm like, oh, you know, I'm being tempted. And so I start looking him up. He's a worship bandleader. I'm like married a worship bandleader. Like, that's, that's not what I was expecting. And so I was praying about it. I was like, oh, I'm going to answer. So I answered it and turned out that she remembered my birthday because when I was little my dad would ask me what my birthday was and it's March 25th.

2:36:10 And the way that I would say it sounded funny and he would, it was just something that silly. My dad wasn't like going out of his way to pick on me all the time. But he would say, oh, when Lisa was little, she would say this March 25th in this way and teaching me how to read. I couldn't get big. It was but Igga, but Igga but Igga. And he just couldn't.

2:36:31 And these were like anecdotes he would share with my friends who very rarely interacted with like it was a blip on the radar. She said, I remembered your dad picking on you like that and saying your birthday like that. And I noticed today was your birthday or that day and that's why I had my husband reach out to you. So at that time I'm thinking, OK, you know, I prayed about it. Like I didn't feel like I shouldn't engage. So he now this is back in Williamsport. He had a friend, close friend that he went to high school with, who happened to live 3 miles down the road from me where I live now, where I lived for the past. I mean, I was 18 when we moved to the area and we lived in a rural community.

2:37:21 So this guy lives right down the road from us. They meet regularly for dinner. So she said, oh, when my husband goes to meet his friends, would you want to meet up in the Bloomsburg area? I was like, yeah, sure. And I was still like, you know, 'cause I'm praying to not be sucked into anything. I shouldn't be like, you know, for protection for all the things that you pray for.

2:37:42 This was so early on. And when I got there, we met and she said, I have to share with you. She said, I have a lot of the illnesses that your mom had with the, the mental illness and the physical illness, 'cause my mom had all kinds of arthritis and all these things. And, and she said, she said, my husband has been praying that I would get a friend who could understand being friends with me. Because, you know, unanswered texts, broken plans, all the things that come along with when you're not healthy, you know, those things can end friendships really easily because you're not getting the natural responses from engaging in a relationship. And you know, she said my husband was praying that I would have I could find a friend who

2:38:41 would understand what I go through. It's like, man, like my dad making fun of the way I said my birth date all these years later to, you know, and at that point too, I'm thinking that everything God happening is happening for me. Like, oh, he's doing this for me. He's doing this for me because I'm just, you know, it's just our nature to, you know, be so self-centered. And from all the way back then, he knew she was going to need a friend, but didn't put us in touch with each other until, you know, it was we were 18I.

2:39:20 Our friendship may have fizzled out at 16. I'm like 44 years old and at that moment she gets that March 25th. Oh, do you remember that girl who used to make fun of, you know her dad used to make fun of her? Tell your husband to send her a message all the like. You can't, you can't do it yourself. It just in those things you sit back and say wow, like he is in everything.

2:39:48 Everything he is, and at least a couple of times that I've heard here, and I would suspect it's more if we were to dig into it further, that you have been a very specific answer to other people's prayers. Their prayers have resulted in you being on the scene that should, that should impact you. You are the answer to other people's prayers.

2:40:13 God has chosen you to do that. It's amazing. It's amazing to me and the and and the genius of God. I mean you're, you're getting into boy, that's really a stretch to go is like, it's not a stretch when you when it when you live it and you see it happening before your eyes and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is this isn't a a really fortunate set of coincidences that happened to it's like there is intelligence behind this. Is it from a personal, a person who is logical, rational and very intelligent like you are.

2:40:50 And I try to see these things as well. In your younger years, you might say, wow, Emmy, come on, that's a I know it sounds bizarre for those things to have happened the way they did, but that's just a series of coincidences. We're smarter than that, right? But you just get enough experience over time. Plus couple that with like a voice coming into your into your spirit is like there's more going. I mean this, this is this is a design, this there is intelligence, but this is this is this is God. And it's it's it's.

2:41:32 Well, and I had probably within the last year or so that I, and again, not having any, any exposure to religion to do with the Bible. I think really like my being naive protected me from people saying like, Oh no, you can't do that. Like, like things like praying in the spirit. Nobody ever told me I couldn't.

2:42:01 So when it was presented to me, you know, I said, if this is a gift you want me to have, I'm happy to have it. If it's not, then that's OK too. And, you know, and then I did and I pray in the spirit. I'd have not spoken in tongues to where somebody else would interpret it. And again, I didn't have anyone saying no, no, no, no.

2:42:24 That's what those people believe. You know, I just, it was when it was presented and I looked at Scripture, it's like, oh, that is, you know, that is something. And my personal experience has been that, you know, as long as I stay walking along side of Christ and not get ahead or behind, it leads me through these things to show me.

2:42:51 You know, if I would have been shown all of these things back six years ago, I probably would have committed myself. But like, even down to having a heart for worship, you know, I had always, you know, there are always people who like know every movie somebody directed or, you know, their favorite singer has, you know, they know the years of their albums and all these things. And I never, I never connected with that. I always think, why are you like, why are these people screaming outside and falling to the ground for The Beatles? Like it just never made any sense to me. You know, they're people, they're just people. And but I kind of thought I was missing something. I was like, they really seem to

2:43:33 enjoy this. Like, boy, they get really worked up. Like, how come I don't have a a band that I want to know everything about? Like they seem to get enjoyment out of it. And it was just had never been anything that I picked up on. And I kind of always felt like people would say, Oh, you know, that movie, Oh my God, don't know.

2:43:53 And in, in prayer one day, you know, the Lord showed me what worship is for. And I was like, Oh, this is what, this is what they think they're connecting to. Like, because I'll take any opportunity to worship the Lord. And that there is nothing the perfection of like, I don't ever have to question anything like, well, even if I don't understand it, you know, if you said it, I may not be right on your heels because you know that I, you know, I hesitate, but I don't ever doubt that my worship is not warranted.

2:44:37 And worshipping is such a joy, and I'm so glad that I never had it for anything else or anyone else. And, you know, that that's just for him. And those things like I had so many instances of things like that over the years of God just revealing things to me in, you know, smaller bites. And now, you know, he's kind of, you know, bringing me to more of a place of maturity where he's saying you're, you need to go and speak to people about me.

2:45:16 Like this is we're done. It's a done. But like the, you know, the little describe it with in the beginning of this year, I was, I was sick. God always seems to put me to my bed with a stomach issue of some sort to like get my attention and, and I got very, very sick one night. I had eaten something with a lot of butter in it. And whenever I would throw up because again, this throwing up started with God.

2:45:47 And whenever it happens now and I'm like wringing my hands, I'm like, Lord, please, if you can take this from me, take it. You know how much this scares me. I hate throwing up. I hate it so much. It's been something that I have been afraid of my whole life. And I would very pitifully just like cry and say, I know, I know you can, if you would, would you please?

2:46:04 And, you know, just sit and be like so overwhelmed. And I went, you know, to bed and I had to spend the next day in bed. And in that time, you know, like I said before, I'm always like, oh, I'll listen to somebody speak or read my Bible or I'll pray or whatever. I take that time because I love spending time with him so much.

2:46:23 And the things that I was being presented with were really like, like, it's time to grow up a little. You know, I have other things for you to do and it can't be hand wringing. And he showed me I have. Our daughter has two boys close in age. They're 15 months apart and the smaller one will like go after the bigger one and like latch onto him and try and take him down. And the older 1 will look over at us and go help, help. And I would always say shake your little brother off of you. Like you're stronger than that.

2:47:05 What are you looking at me for? You know, you don't have to do this. You don't have to be calling out to me. Push him off of you and move on. And he showed that to me and I and I was about it and I was like, my gosh, she wants me to stop ringing. Like wringing my hands and looking at like he's equipped me with things. He was telling me to accept the authority that you have in Christ, like we're going to do other things now. And that I don't know how to explain because the other things that I was getting in, other things that I was reading or watching or were being revealed to me of that I wasn't. And again, it wasn't revealed to me until recently about having that authority in Christ like

2:48:00 that eight years that I had of being, you know, discipled by him was like, we're, we're going to do other things now. And it had started with, you know, I had to speak at church and that's not something that I do. But we were in a meeting, something came up and they were talking about who was going to present something.

2:48:23 And I just said, oh, I'm going to do that. They were like, what? You know, all I was like, what are you talking about? I said, I don't know. I said that just fell out of my mouth, but I guess I'm doing it. And that that led to this and the, you know, things we had talked about with like deliverance and healing and things like that. Like those things are all like, those are things that are being revealed to me now.

2:48:51 And that was all surrounding around that. You know, those two little kids that you say you're, you're bigger, you're stronger. Like you don't need to call over to me for every, you know, little thing. Now I've equipped you and we're going to go do other things. Now I don't know what they are. It's like, I didn't know why I was coming here. But that following week, just a week later, I hadn't eaten anything.

2:49:19 I hadn't had anything to drink. And I got sick again. But that time I was like, Nope, I'm just going to grab that trash can and go into my bedroom. I said this will pass. I was just here a week ago and this is what God showed me to stop. You know this you'll you'll go through this and my whole like demeanor and acceptance and realization and I again, does it sound crazy that it's coming through that and that could probably bring validity to my story.

2:49:55 I don't know why it has to do with me throwing up one, one night I'm sitting on the floor wringing my hands all pathetic and the same thing the next week. But after that revelation and the prayer and the communication with the Lord and him showing me these things, I was like, no, you're right. I don't need to sit in this, you know, weakness anymore. You know, I was always a big like, if it's, if it's in your will, I guess do it.

2:50:24 Like people would ask me for prayer and I'd have no idea how to pray for them because again, the empty Lord, please, if it's in your will, do it. If it's not, don't. I always felt so silly doing that, just like with people telling my girlfriend said, I'm like, I don't know if that's how to pray, but God knows I don't know how to pray.

2:50:41 And I asked him how to pray and he's been walking me through that, you know, and it's not a oh, now, you know, you know, it's been about a year that he's been revealing things to me of going, you know what? You need to pray boldly. And you need to pray with authority. You need to ask for things and get your own pride off your shoulders of whether or not you think it's going to work.

2:51:04 Like, are you, do you believe me or don't you? And again, if that would have happened seven years ago, you weren't ready for that. No. And that's the of like all of these things that just, you know, year after year after year of, you know, being presented with things and then wondering about them and then praying about them and then telling them I'm not going to do it.

2:51:28 And, you know, half hearted surrenders, like I have failed so many times, so many times. And he's just always right there. And patiently bringing you into the fullness of more of the fullness of what He has for you. You know, you had an incredible encounter, you had a an incredible past where you were entrenched in opposition to God and anything religion and then an incredible counter.

2:51:55 The encounter that has clearly, clearly transformed you completely into a different person that you probably could never have envisioned for those however many years, 20 years or so and you have come here and out of obedience. I always or I often like to ask people, you know, why are you here and what and all of that. What message do you have?

2:52:30 Is your message to the people that are consumed with religious behavior in that environment that seems to be devoid of Jesus? Is your message to the searcher? What would you say is the message that you would deliver? You know, in my experience, God gives you a heart for what? You know, when people will say like, Oh, God put it on my heart for things that your message can help people with.

2:53:17 And you know, I, I don't think anyone could have ever, I know no one could have evangelized me into being a believer. God did that. I don't know why I, I don't believe I did anything to encourage that, but I, I, I called out and he answered me with a genuine heart with no agenda. But what I've been seeing now, like in my years of because I go to church regularly is so many people living without the Holy Spirit and not surrendering things, being fearful of what's what happens if I respond to this, you know, wanting that control over their lives.

2:54:11 And, you know, praying weekly the, you know, and again, because I didn't know any different, like I share these things with people at church. When our son called us, called me about that meditation situation he had, there was a church gathering for women at some Italian restaurant. I went in there yelling. Shane meditated himself into getting a demon into him, and Jesus saved them.

2:54:42 They're all like, I didn't know that nobody would say anything like that. You know, I've had no preconceived notions about what this religion looked like because I thought since they followed the Bible, everybody saw what I saw. So I'm, you know, I'm telling everybody there about my, you know, about all my stuff.

2:55:06 And they're like, what? I'm like, Oh my gosh, you can't believe it. But now, but they're it's touching people that they're like, Oh, well, like what's going on over there, you know, and that is what I feel, you know, when people end their walk with Christ, with salvation and duty. I'm like, no, like it is an everyday all day, you know, just I think the Holy Spirit's overlooked, you know, I see scripture of is it something about the the little ones? And I've heard it preached about. I've heard it spoken about, But at the very first part of that verse says something along the lines of their angels are always facing God, so you should not blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've never heard anyone talk

2:56:10 about my angels facing God. They leave out the spiritual part of Scripture and you know, I just feel like people are being robbed by that. Like it's it's there. He said it. It's true. And you know, I'm sure some people don't want to make life adjustments. It's scary. I don't think that anything that I've been obedient about has anything to do with my salvation.

2:56:44 You know, Jesus died for me and that's the only reason that I'm going to be in eternity with him. Everything else, he said, come on, come, come do this with me. It'll be fun. And it's been amazing. He knows me better than anybody. And you know, I just see when I see people, I don't know how you can describe it, almost dead in their in their walk with Christ, you know, and just making sure they don't do anything to jeopardize it.

2:57:24 It makes me sad. And I think that, you know, there are other things that go on in the world that I can look at and have compassion for, but it doesn't affect me in a way that I want to do anything about it. And, you know, that's where the the couple of times that that first time that I had to speak in church last fall, I was doing a lot of like, oh, am I going to say this?

2:57:53 Am I going to do that, You know, searching Scripture? Yeah. Because it was on a specific topic. And, you know, through that, Holy Spirit was like, it's not what we're doing. Like, it's not what we're doing. And once that came through to me, it's like, oh, this is your message, not mine. You're the one who made me say that at that meeting.

2:58:15 You know, I don't want to do this. And it is a big leap of faith to to go and not have anything. So that time I was like, I thought I was just speak about it, but as you can tell, I tend to ramble. And so I sat down and prayed and I just started typing. And, you know, it's almost like I'm getting ministered too, because it's not, you know, I'm involved in it, but it's not my message. And it wasn't anything that I had planned on saying. And I read that that day.

2:58:51 And I told the women I was like, look, I'm, I'm going to read this. They all knew that this isn't something that I do. You know, I'm involved in all kinds of things at church and I'm always in the kitchen. So I read it. And I said, for the sake of time, you know, I have 10 minutes here with you and I want y'all to be able to eat lunch. So I read that.

2:59:10 And, you know, those tears, people were so affected by what had been said. And I knew it wasn't me. And that was great. And then so I had to do it again because then they were like, oh, will you do this? And I don't, I don't feel like, oh, I spoke once and now I'm a speaker. Is this what you want me to do?

2:59:32 If you want me to do this, I'll do it. If you don't, I don't have to. And that time, you know, I agreed to it and I didn't prepare. I had, I prayed, I prayed a lot and I would say, you know, and that and it not a formula or anything. Just like if there's, I know you'll show me if you want me to do this. And I went and I spoke.

3:00:00 I can't even tell you really what I said, but it was received. It was received well. And that was the Holy Spirit, and it was about the Holy Spirit. So, you know, and then that to coming here, it's like even making a video, I didn't even know how to make a video, let alone put it to a closed YouTube thing. And but it was if you want me to do this, I'll do it. Show me how.

3:00:28 And that's what I think that, you know, people are missing when they're even people who aren't religious still are bound by religion. You know, I think I can just see it because I didn't know any better. Nobody ever told me that these things weren't true, you know, with healing. Why would you think that healing doesn't happen today? I've never experienced it.

3:01:01 But why would you ever doubt it? Jesus wrote about it didn't end with the apostles. They talk about Paul and Barnabas and other people like why are you saying these things? But people say it, People hear it the whole time they're growing up and it gets in there and they just get all cluttered up with it. It's.

3:01:21 Like read the Bible for yourself and let's not omit the the spiritual parts, the parts with the Holy Spirit and yeah. And when you actually go and read it and discover for yourself what it actually says and, and then encounter people who are living that way, now you're like, whoa. Religion has absolutely quenched a lot of that in people's lives.

3:01:47 And there's no reason for it. And yeah, that's amazing. All of that is just really awesome. I think there's so many spiritual truths that have bubbled up in this conversation. And I just I go back to a lot of what we do is revealing the truth of the presence and power of God in a world, first of all, that likes to argue that he doesn't exist, and then secondly, who religious tradition fights to inhibit who people understand him to be.

3:02:28 And that's what we we have conversations with people who are experiencing God and yours is an extraordinary experience indeed. And and now you are not only living it, but he's pulling you into places of of even more. And the, the younger, I wouldn't say younger, less spiritually mature version of yourself that encountered him there, it's now getting pulled into into higher places of experiences with him.

3:03:05 And that's so exciting. You can watch it happen in the in the, in the apostles lives. You think about who all of them were and some of the things they said early on in their walk with him versus some of the things that that they did and said at the end. And then even after the resurrection, it's an ongoing process.

3:03:26 And so. Yeah. And I always try to tell if I'm talking to somebody, especially someone who has, you know, they are, they are following Christ and they have been within, you know, the confines of religion that when you hear, you know what I say, like God didn't one day say, here I am, you're losing your job, you might lose your family, all these things. And now, you know, it was because somebody could say you were there.

3:03:58 And now, you know, like I said, I, I may, it may cost me to go to work. I don't know, I don't, I don't look at it. And God's put it on my husband's heart to not worry about it either. That can look scary to people. You know, they're like, I don't want to leave my comfort zone. That doesn't RIP you out of those things if you agree to work with him.

3:04:20 He's never ripped me out of something, period. It's always been a dialogue and an agreement and a very gentle, loving guidance and has not left me needing anything that he hasn't provided, you know, and it's the the joy and the peace that you have when you're walking like that with the Lord is just incomparable to what the world gives you.

3:05:03 And it's such a hurdle for people. And I get it because again, if somebody had told me 8 years ago, I heard this voice and today I'm going to be doing what I'm doing now by the world's lens, be like, why? That's crazy. Look, look what he did to her. You know, it could be somebody's like. And that's where I think that these these things, the things that God is doing and the way he's working on things that I see are that, you know, it's for the people who are already following him, you know, to have that relationship, to have that trust to give your life to him. I mean, I've had prayer.

3:05:49 I've said I am your servant. And that was a long time coming. You know, I spent a lot of years going, I don't want to be your servant. I'm not qualified to be your servant. I don't know, you know, what to do. I'm scared. All of the things. But he already knows how you feel, you're already accepted, so you might as well be honest with him. Just tell him I'm not today and not today, not me. And you know, and that's like I said, I just, you know, when I share these things with people and not, you know, it's like it's not to be afraid of, you know, it's amazing. It's an amazing thing to not have a worry about yourself. And it's all just been being obedient, but honest. You know, I heard a scripture

3:06:42 about or a pastor preach about not worrying and how it's offensive to God to worry because it shows a lack of faith in what he's going to do. I was like, I don't want to offend God. So I'm like, I'm not going to worry. I'm not going to worry. And you know, again, that was with prayer. But you know, that's how you know, drawn I am to him that I don't ever want to be offensive. I don't.

3:07:08 And hey, you know better. You tell me not to do this. Nothing I've ever planned out has ever been better than what he had planned out. But you know what obedience, belief, trust, faith, like all those things hand in hand and acknowledging the Holy Spirit and you know, allowing Him to work through US is, you know, it's what we were designed for.

3:07:37 It's what I believe. Lisa Kays, well done. Thanks for coming. Thanks, Stacey. Lisa had already made-up her mind that God wasn't real. She wasn't looking to change. But her story shows that even the most settled conclusions can be interrupted. So if you're convinced that God isn't real, maybe the take away is this. Stay open to the possibility that you could be wrong. And if you know someone who feels that way, this probably isn't something you're going to be able to argue them into. Sometimes it's really only something that God can reveal. So don't give up on them.

3:08:19 It is God's will that they know him. So pray God's will for them back to Him. I'd personally be surprised at what happened to Lisa wasn't simply an answered prayer that was aligned with God's will for Lisa's life. Thank you for joining us today on a stronger faith. To recommend yourself or someone you know to possibly be a guest with us, please visit astrongerfaith.org/contact and follow the guest recommendation instructions there. And if you feel like God's calling you to support this ministry financially by joining our community of donors, please visit astrongerfaith.org/give for some simple giving options. Until next time, we pray that God speaks to you in new ways in the upcoming weeks and that He

3:09:09 builds a stronger faith in you and in those you love.