I Found Jesus… But Following Him Cost Me My Family - #174 Sajeda Wilson

0:00 Leaving Islam is considered apostasy, and that's a really, really high sin, and people are encouraged to punish others who do that, to make an example so that more people don't leave the faith. I cannot express how personally I met Jesus through the scriptures, and I sat there just between me and Jesus, and I told him that I believe you are who you say you are, the Son of God. You're God himself, you're the Messiah, you're the savior of the world, you're the God of for the Bible. And I don't know what my life is going to look like from here. I don't think it's going to look that good. So the stock's going to go down.

0:39 And that day on April 24th, 2011, I, well, Jesus, I was going to follow him. So anyway, my family, they do what I believe they consider to be the most merciful thing and completely renounce me. I am dead to them. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, funerals, gone. Completely gone. So Sajeda Wilson, your husband Brandt is here. I'm so thankful for that.

1:18 We've had a powerful prayer time here all together already. And I just love that. And we've need it today because it seems like going into this that we both all have been hit with, with stuff to knock us off course. I feel like it's related to this conversation today. So your story is really, really powerful to me.

1:51 I watched the video you sent in several times, found a couple other ones out there too where you've had an opportunity to share briefly in other places. And one of I think the most powerful books that I've read in my career as a Jesus follower is, is the book Seeking a Lot and Finding Jesus. And this one is not dissimilar from that book.

2:32 First of all, Sujeta, welcome. Thank you. So I tell you what we got to do is I think you just need to tell your story. I'm going to pop in with some questions every now and then. And in all of that is how you've experienced God. We give it to you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Stacy. Thanks for having us here today. And these are bringing up Nabil Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah and Finding Jesus because my story does have some similarities, but it's very unique. I think God has a way of doing that. So I'm just going to start at the top with my story of origin. So I was born in 1978 in Karachi, Pakistan to my lovely parents.

3:17 My dad's from India and my mom's from Pakistan. Both Muslim and my parents got married in 1970 and moved to Saudi in 1972 and lived there for 15 years until I was six years old when we moved to California. Both of my parents are Muslim and hence the Pakistani Indian connection, even though yes, there's some challenges there.

3:44 And my Muslim family, unlike other Muslim families, is a strong Muslim. My maternal grandmother started the first Shia community and Shia Muslim community in Los Angeles 1972 or 73, which has grown to about 20,000 members strong between Southern and Northern California. Today I'm represented by several community centers and Muslim mosques and all that stuff. So I share that just to give you some context and background about my family and where I come from. So yeah, so we moved to California when I'm 6. California is still has a piece of my heart and always will be a little bit of home for me.

4:36 We currently live in Birmingham, have been here for four years and definitely has started to feel like home. So moving has been a pretty big part of my life and story ever since I was a child. There's been a lot of moves. I'm going to try to focus on some of kind of the big pieces of my story. So growing up in Southern California, I'm thinking I'm, you know, pretty normal American kid. But I do grow up in quite the subculture of Muslim culture, Indian, Pakistani, and at the age of 16 I am engaged to be married to a man 11 years my senior, and at age 18 I do get married.

5:24 That marriage, unfortunately, for many reasons which I won't get into, doesn't last. Is this marriage arranged? Yes, arranged at 16. OK, so this isn't falling in love. This isn't OK. This is from the Muslim tradition. Correct. OK, yes. And this, the person I marry, I I don't know him. He's 11 years my senior. In fact, he grew up in Pakistan and at 18, I got married. At 22, we split apart, even though the official divorce takes several more years.

6:13 The reason I sure that that's going to make a little bit more sense later on down the story as I continue with my journey. But at 22, when I have really honestly a nervous breakdown and I end up leaving my husband, that's the first time my family disowns me. And anyhow, so I'm 22. I am going through frankly the most difficult time up until my point. At this time, I'm in a divorce situation, separated from my husband.

6:58 I'm really expecting the support of my family because I have nowhere else to go and I don't receive that. So eventually I move out of California with the first promotional opportunity I can get. And that helped in a lot of ways and hurt in other ways. But kind of bringing this story to connect a little bit better in 2005. I'm 27, yes.

7:29 I had an aunt who passed away from cancer, my mom's youngest sister. Horrible tragedy and at her funeral were given a lot of information about life after death according to Islam. I'm familiar with these things. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm going to back up here a little bit. I grow up as a very strong Muslim.

8:00 I as far back as I can remember, 7-8 years of age, I decided I am going to be a faithful Muslim. I'm going to do my prayers five times a day. I am going to fast during the month of Ramadan. I believe I started fasting during the month of Ramadan at age 8, which you know, Islamic fasting is quite different than the way I fast now.

8:24 Even you fast from sun up to sundown and you have nothing, not even water or coffee or tea or food of any kind. So I fast, I do my prayers, I even did Umrah and Hajj which is the pilgrimage to Mecca. So Hajj is once a year at a specified amount of time. And Umrah is when you do that journey in pilgrimage at any time usually isn't, you know, crowded with 5 million other Muslims from all over the world.

8:56 So I'm a faithful follower of Islam is what I wanted to share. And it's interesting because while I come from a strong Muslim family, there's all kinds of versions of how people follow Islam in my family. For an example, my parents followed all the traditions, all the holidays. And I remember my dad always went to mosque on Fridays for prayer, but he didn't always do his daily prayers.

9:24 Same thing with my mom. But in the last probably 3 decades, they continue to kind of grow stronger in their faith, particularly my mother, who spends, no exaggeration, easily 8 or 9 hours a day on her prayer rug. So it's, it's, it's kind of beautiful how Muslims pursue God and try to seek him. So anyway, that I really wanted to share the context of my background.

9:55 I wasn't just in a kind of Muslim family and a secular Muslim. I know several of those. I, I was really pursuing God to the best of my ability. I always had a heart for God. I remember having my parents dropped me off at the mosque as a young kid and then I'm not sure why they wouldn't stay, but it was important for me to be there and never thought of it until I was an adult.

10:21 But yes. But anyway, my parents are strong believers, but in my family we always had this kind of public following of Islam and then a private and I, I always found that very interesting and I tried to live my life in my little, you know, 89101216 year old self to try to reconcile the two. So. Well, I mean, that's an important context, right?

10:48 Because people sort of grow up in various traditions to whatever degree of commitment they have. And most, a lot, I wouldn't say most say what we were of this tradition, but you know, I wouldn't call us like faithfully in every aspect of it. It sounds like to me though, from a Muslim perspective, you were heavily committed and, and were, were very involved. So, OK, that's really important.

11:22 Yes, yes, very much so. So I yes, that's the context of early childhood, my family, my background, and I had a heart for God. And this is the context I new and really aim to pursue it and fulfill it. But as life goes along, yeah. So at 16, I am engaged to be married in an arranged marriage situation to a man who's 11 years my senior. I don't know why every time I share that with like an American sensibility, people ask me, So did you actually get married? Yes, I did at 18.

12:07 And then at 22 I had a nervous breakdown. Just I from the pressures of trying to be an adult when you're really kind of a child, coming inside, going to college, working, all the things. But things really fell apart from me for the first time around then as my parents were very, very disappointed, understandably from their perspective. But sadly that resulted in a disownment for the first time around.

12:43 Anyhow, so life is moving along. At this point, I'm just pursuing my career and education as a lot of Indian, Pakistani Muslims do. I'm really also kind of grateful to I have my independence, which at this point is serving as a bit of a healing anyway, in 2005, going back to my aunt who passed away, she was only 47 at the time. And the whole situation really, frankly, it's the first time I believe I've experienced death very personally and, and to someone I who I cared about dearly. And so everything just about that I'm really attentive to. And at her funeral, we get literature about life after death according to Islam.

13:36 And this isn't new information. I'm a Muslim my whole life at this point, 27 years. But for some reason, I mean, I still remember it was a trifold pamphlet with, I think 25 things on each. Try, try. I don't know what it's called. And I'm reading this stuff as if like it. I mean, so descriptive.

14:01 Like, you know, it talks about how you will hear people leaving your graveside while you're in the grave. And your grave starts to squeeze in itself as the earth starts to crush you. There will be an Angel on your right hand side taking an account for all the things you did right in your life and an Angel on your left hand side for things that you did wrong. And then it went on to describe whatever all the wrong things. Like if you listen to music, hot lava would be poured in your ears.

14:31 If you spoke gossip or I'll about people, hot coals would be like, I was guilty on all charges. So it was very Oh my gosh, like, what do we do? How do you you know, how do you go on with your life? And then just that whole season was just super, really somber and that her death hit our whole family, understandably very, very hard. But as I tried to go on with my life, I couldn't, I couldn't shake off these questions that had risen inside of me about how can I reconcile myself with God and what happens to me when I die.

15:14 As I seek these answers and I try to find them. And, and I've grabbed all that literature to get home with me thinking, OK, I just have to, you know, really study this and something's got to get. But the more I went to it, the more discouraged, extremely discouraged I became. So I decided, you know, I know what it is.

15:33 I need to grow stronger in my faith of Islam. I'm not trying enough. I'm not devoted enough. I'm not faithful enough. And that's why I had this discontent. So this is kind of a breakthrough for me. This is the first time in my life. I'm about 28. At this point, I decide, you know, not only do I love Islam and I'm a follower of Islam, I'm really going to study it and learn it and draw closer to my beloved faith at the time.

16:05 So one of the first things I decided to do is read the Quran in English because I had never done that at this point, not in its entirety. We are all taught to read the Quran in Arabic, whether that's your native language or not. And to my understanding, the written Arabic in in the Quran isn't necessarily the spoken Arabic by anyone.

16:26 So it's kind of like reading the Bible in Latin. I'm, I'm not sure that anyone understands Latin. But anyway, so I had never read the Quran in English. I decided to do that and I I become very disenchanted rather quickly. And I was very surprised with that. For example, right out of the gate, I discovered for the first time that Islam or the Quran wasn't written 150 or 250 years after the Prophet Muhammad died in the 6th century Arabia. And up until that point, it was an oral tradition of like me telling you and then you telling your neighbor and so on and on. And like, wow, that's incredible. I had no idea.

17:19 And then when you, when I started reading it, I, it kind of made sense that it, it appeared very disjointed to me and kind of like, not like a book. I didn't quite understand what's the point of it? How does it start? How does it end? In my opinion, the best part about it was the doxology, the worship to God. But anyway, some of the more specific things that I had, you know, I knew we're, we're really taught to memorize a lot of the surahs and you read them whether you know what you're reading or not.

17:54 But so these words are familiar, but the meaning like they were just surahs, like the Surah al taba, which I think translates to the verse of the sword. And I read that in English. I was just really taken aback by what I interpreted as a OK on violence in the right circumstances and then numerous other things and particularly about women and how to deal with an unruly wife, even allowing physical beating to.

18:37 And and you know, as I continue to wrestle with that and try to research that there's debates on both sides of that of those things like the interpretation of the translation of 6th century Arab world and what have you. Anyway, those things were just really shocking and jarring because that's not the religion I was taught, nor were those things ever explained in that way.

19:02 But anyway, you know, hey, scripture is hard to understand. And I was always taught that it's me as a female is I'm sure as heck not supposed to take interpretation and understanding these matters in my own hands. So I continue and I learn also for the first time that not only are we called to read the Quran as Muslims, but we are also to read the hadiths, which are the stories of the Prophet's life. So thankfully, with technology and resources, I mean, these things are available at our fingertips. And here again, some of the things I discover are shocking at best.

19:44 Like the the fact that Muhammad had multiple wives was not a mystery to me. In fact, I know people in my life who have more than one wife because Islam allows that. And but that one of his wives, Aisha, was six or seven years old when they were married, and then eight or nine years old when their marriage was consummated.

20:16 The other story that was really surprising to me, and the marriage part was wasn't surprising, but what I had always been taught was like, she was 12 or 13. But the these things that I was finding were Muslim historians recording this. I wasn't even interested in reading anything else because there would be lies, you know, to kind of distort the credibility of Islam.

20:39 The other thing that I was very, very shocked to discover, again, Muslim scholar or Muslim historians talk about how Muhammad had heard voices in his head and at least two if not 3 occasions are recorded that he attempted to take his life and was talked off the ledge literally by a wife and a cousin. And I believe perhaps the last time they convinced him that those voices you're hearing are from God with the revelation for the world.

21:26 And apparently that's kind of a culmination of how the Quran came to be. So anyway, I am just really wrestling at this point in my life with trying to reconcile my beloved faith, my culture, my family, my traditions with what I'm learning through my Islamic research, however faulty it may have been. But these are the discoveries I'm making, and I'm really wrestling with this.

21:56 And I remember mourning and grieving like this thing that you think is so beautiful and precious and wholesome. I just saw the inconsistencies, the discrepancies, and it really shattered something for me. And I wrestle and wrestle with that. And I remember really wrestling with trying to understand. My grandmother was very dear to me. I she's just someone who has a life that she's no longer with us now, but very bigger than life personality, magnanimous. And while she was religious, she also had a great sense of humor and we got to know her privately. So I just kept thinking about her and her life. Like how can someone so good and great like not be following the right faith?

22:51 So I'm wrestling with this and the stuff I'm learning and kind of my reality. But eventually I conclude because I keep reading and researching and the things I find are just just discouraging and really inconsistent. Did you, I'm just curious, did you take these concerns, the things that were shaking your Muslim faith to leaders of the mosque or I, I don't know how that works or family.

23:22 It's like, hey, I've got questions. I'd like to try to understand this more thoroughly. Is there? How do you verify that stuff? No, I didn't take it to leaders of the Moss. There's no real context for us to do that. At least in my experience, In my experience of Islam and how we practiced it, the female and male world is very segregated.

23:57 Like you don't even go like, you know, in church. We're all sitting together, mixed congregation is how, like we would say it in Islamic terms, men go in through a different entrance, they sit in a different room. Women come into a different entrance. And when you go to mosque, particularly whether you do the hijab in public or not, we do going to the mosque like out of respect and reverence and I don't know what else, but that was what we did. And so it's completely segregated life, but there are very different rules for men and women. And the path to raising questions as a female is, you know, if you're married, you ask your husband, if you're unmarried, you ask your brother or father. And then they, if they feel fit,

24:44 they will escalate the questions or concerns. But perhaps I should have. I didn't. I never felt like anyone would hear my questions or give them any credibility or account. Over the years, I asked my parents tons and tons of questions. They would be very, we try to answer the questions, you know, like I know my son asks a lot of questions and I do my best to answer them. And they probably did too.

25:09 But a lot of questions they didn't have answers to. I, Oh my gosh, I just remember this. I remember being really little. I remember Indira Gandhi, the former Prime Minister of India have passed away. I'm watching this on the news. Maybe it was like 1985 or something. I don't remember exactly the year it happened, but I remember asking my parents like does I mean clearly Derrigani was not Muslim.

25:32 I guess she was, I think she's Hindu. She's from India. Does that mean she doesn't go to heaven? And you know, just like kid like questions. But along the way I asked my parents a lot of questions. I was just trained and not ask any more questions. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's, that's interesting.

25:51 And it's a different culture, obviously. And, and I, I don't pretend to be an expert at all in this arena. I have a Quran, but I've not read that. And so I unfortunately can't speak to those things. I can't speak to the accuracy of the things that you're discovering. And there's probably going to be people as like, yes, that's true. And there's going to probably be people's like, no, that she's way off base.

26:14 It was written 50 years, not 150. And I don't know. I can't, I can't question those things. What's happening, though, is that you're in a search for the truth. You're in a search for knowing God, so that at your death you're not all love it up, I guess, effectively, right, Experiencing the torture that comes with the punishment of doing certain things in your life.

26:52 I think you're trying to be a better Muslim A. 100%. And as you're in pursuit of becoming a better Muslim, the faith itself seems to be disintegrating for you. And I know this happens. People deconstruct Christianity all the time too and, and similar things, right? I think there's things that they see in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. It's like, wait a minute, are they advocating for slavery or, or this kind of treatment of women and, you know, talking about taking the land and lots of war and killing and, and things like that and people struggle with that. I don't think they see it in a greater context. And there may be a greater context as it relates to Islam as well and the teachers.

27:38 I don't know. But what's happening from my perspective is that you're just in a search for truth and and it's deconstructing. Would you say that? Precisely, yes. And I am in no way claim to be some Islamic scholar or historian. This is just my little experience of a one person in her late 20s, you know, and and it doesn't matter.

28:09 I'm just sharing what it did for me. Yeah, I'm in no way claiming any kind of historical accuracy or anything. This is just my personal story. These are the things I discovered. Anyone can Google them now and find them. And whether you choose to believe them or not, it's up to you. And I'm sure you can find evidence to the contrary. And then you could, you know, so there's all kinds of information available.

28:34 But these things, I, you know, these were, these were important to me because they got my attention as an, as Muslim, I had known enough about them. But the contrary evidence that I was just finding in my everyday person research was astounding. And it just shook the ground I stood on because I this was my whole life. My culture, MyHeritage, my family, my religion, we're all one and the same.

29:02 Well, I, I think about, OK, so the Bible is by far, by far the single most scrutinized text ever to exist on the planet. There, there's no debating that opponents of Christianity have torn through all kinds of and, and written by man and all this other stuff. And, and, and then scholars, I mean, flood to this. There's plenty of biblical scholars that are not Christians that are immersed in that text just to an extraordinary degree. And the further that exploration goes, the more it proves to be true.

29:59 The word of God. OK, we don't, I don't. And I'm someone who operates in circles of faith, right? This is this is what I do. I am, I am so consumed with knowing the truth that this is what I do now I don't have another job anymore. I used to have another job. Now I don't just do this and I do not hear the same sort of scrutiny over the Quran. And I my thought as to why that is is because, and I could be totally wrong with this is just my perception is the because Muslims are highly offended, like violently murderously offended when things of Muhammad depictions speaking against things.

30:57 It just seems like it's highly offensive and the world doesn't want to offend. Muslims. Got no problem offending Christians. Right. Yes. It's it's everywhere, it's rampant. And so I wonder, are there are there people who have come from Islam that said, have come out and said, wait a minute, I mean, Nabil Qureshi did, he's gone. That was a cancer, of course, but but I, I just wonder about that.

31:33 And so we're, we're getting into that territory and I'm not making, I don't think we're making definitive statements one way or the other. There are things that you experienced and learned and, and uncovered that were very unsettling in your spirit. And I wonder where the, the heavy critique of the Quran and the foundations of Islam are like they are in Christianity, because it's rampant there anyway, for whatever that's worth.

32:05 So I don't know. And I would have to go and, and dig right now to to see where, where this open debate is around Muhammad's emotional mental stability and suicidal ideation. You know, I'd have read plenty around married at six year old, consummated at 9. Some texts say no, it's 1314 and others know it really was I I've read all that.

32:33 But, and it isn't, I mean, it doesn't even matter except to because you know, there's people who would support like, well, that was appropriate and. That was the culture. Arabia, it was socially normal. Maybe it is. I'm not even for me, that was just one component of all the things that the sum total of it was just like, what the heck is going on? And it was just so different from what I was taught in my family in my faith.

33:00 And I was taught that the Quran was a, you know, direct revelation from the Angel Gabriel. So it just, I, I was like, why is there so much humanness in this then? I wasn't expecting to find kind of the center of Islam to be a person, I guess. And then this person is, is kind of flawed from what I can tell.

33:20 And so anyway, for me, I mean alone and maybe other people have experienced, I don't know their story, but for me, that's just all of those pieces coupled with how is this going to end? What does, where do I go when I die? I have been searching for God for 27 years. Where are you? And why is this so hard?

33:45 You know, and those are my questions. And at the end of those questions, at the end, I, I am just completely disenchanted. And I decide, you know, I'm not going to follow this religion that in my opinion is made for men by men. And by that I mean males, you know, to so I decide, you know, secretly, you know, not some big proclamation that probably speaks to my hypocrisy.

34:12 But I'm just not following all of this anymore. And I'm going to live the American dream of doing what I want, when I want to, with whom I want to, as long as it doesn't hurt other people, whatever that means. I mean, sin always hurts me and others. So I go down that path. And really what that look like for me is like double Downing on my career and education and, and I, you know, go out with people. I've never done this.

34:44 I party like these are completely new things for me. But I'm having a great time for a minute, for a minute for a couple years. And that leads me down a path of feeling just really unwholesome and icky and living this immoral lifestyle that I had really never engaged in previously. And so if we're doing that for a couple years, I'm like, yeah, you know, I really miss my moral, wholesome life.

35:18 So I remember, hey, I was on to something there with my research. I'm going to go back to my Islamic research. And this time around, I'm, for the first time in my life, I'm in my late 20s, I discover that Islam also considers the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament, the Injeel, which is the Arabic word for gospel.

35:41 It's not the Gospels as we know them in the New Testament. I think Muslims believe that the original, the true gospels, were taken away to heaven. I guess I don't know where. And really the Apostle Paul and the followers of Jesus after Jesus corrupted the Gospels that we have. So the Torah, the Injeel and the Psalms of David to be scripture and Islam. What are these things?

36:13 I've never even heard of them. And so I think, goodness for Google, I'm like, what is this Torah? It's the first five books of the Old Testament was the Old Testament. It's the Bible. And this time in my life, I travel regularly for work. I'm somewhere in the back of my mind is interested in a Bible in hotel rooms. There it is.

36:33 There was at least. So I, you know, I'm like, OK, the Torah, according to Google, is Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Numbers, Leviticus. Yeah. Not probably not in that order. So I decided I'm gonna. Yeah. I I'm not some, like, spiritual giant or. I mean, even today, 15 years later, but definitely not then. No, nothing, you know.

36:56 So I start to read Genesis, not a craziest book of like stories. And I remember reading like about Abraham and Isaac and Ishmael. And I'm like, ha, ha, silly Christians. They got the Ishmael and Isaac's story reversed because I was always taught that Ishmael was the first born son and, and apparently he's like a direct descendant to Muhammad and also is associated with building the Kaaba somehow, which is the, the, the like representation of Mecca. So anyway, I'm reading along and just fascinated and intrigued and I'm, I'm really captivated because of the similarities. Like a lot of the prophet names, I'm very familiar with, you know, Islam has a lot of they believe in a lot of the same things like the prophets and

37:58 Adam and Eve. And I mean, I'm just reading along and I can't stop reading and I'm well past the first five books of the Old Testament. But don't please hear me when I say this. I'm reading. I'm not understanding things, but I'm an avid reader. I have always been an avid reader. My Kindle usually tells me that I average about 60 books a year.

38:23 And when I was younger, way more than that. So I love to read and, and I guess I know how to respect literature. You read it from the beginning to the end. And, and the amazing part is as I'm going through the Bible, you know, I can Google and I remember learning like the book of Leviticus, the context of that was for Levites, like the priests and the lawmakers.

38:46 So anyway, I am reading and reading. And while I'm doing this, I'm also just really wrestling with like, I don't, it's not like I'm looking to become a Christian, OK? I'm not, I don't, that's the last thing I want to do. I know that even saying the name of Jesus, the cost that I have to pay for that, let alone like flipping my life on my head. But anyway, I can't stop reading this book. It is the most remarkable book I have ever read and that's why I mentioned about my avid reading problem. I read a lot and I have never read anything like this. I've never met all these characters from Abraham to Tamar to Amnon to Ruth and Boaz.

39:39 And I remember reading about Sapphira and Ananias. It's like, like these are real people with real stories and they're broken. They're not like perfect stories of like, this is what it looks like to live your life perfectly. And this is what it looks like to go to hell. And this is what it looks like to go to heaven. And along the way, as I'm reading this, I, I remember like as I make my journey to the New Testament, this is over 10 months or a year, so.

40:11 Not super fast and yet not as slow as it could have gone. And as I get to the New Testament and I get to the book of John and I'm reading like in the beginning is the Word and the Word is God and the word is with God and what what is this? And by the time I get to the New Testament, I feel like, like the prophets were pointing to Jesus. And when I read about like the blind man and the beggar and the woman at the well, like I am those people. That's what I've been looking for. That's what I've been searching for. And I realized that this Jesus is God of the Bible. He is the God of the world and He sees me. He sees my sin, He sees my brokenness, and He has compassion on me.

41:20 He calls me to Himself and He offers me my greatest need, which is His forgiveness and His love. And even as I read that and even as I meet Jesus, I reject him at 1st and I don't want to this is too good to be true. I like I'm telling Jesus, you don't, you don't know who I am. Like I have sinned a lot and and I'm and I just can't reconcile like it's that easy. This It's too good to be true for me initially. Even as I'm reading and reading and reading the Word of God and meeting Jesus and experiencing him, I I cannot express how personally I met Jesus through the scriptures. It was almost like he was in the room with me and I can feel his characteristics of love and grace and patience and compassion.

42:34 And as I wrestled with those things, it was like he sat next to me and said, I know, I know, but I love you anyway. Anyway, I'm still wrestling with all of this and I I'm like almost like verbally rejecting it. Like I'm having these experiences. I'm reading the Bible and yet I get up the next morning and I almost deliberately decide, no, no, no, this like this is crazy.

42:57 I'm not going to follow Jesus like what do? And I'm thinking what that's going to mean for me in my life. So I decide I know what I need to do. I need to go to a church. Isn't that what like Christians do? Like maybe someone there will help me figure some of this out or like set me straight or something. I don't, I don't know what I'm thinking. So I'm living in Kansas City at the time, you know, as I drive by, I know I've seen this like church building. And so I look it up and I've like learned what time they have church service and stuff.

43:31 And I walk in to a church for the first time in my life and it's as unusual and weird as I fear it's going to be. And even more maybe. But for some reason I still don't know why but there someone's singing an Adele song so. At church. At church. Yeah. OK. And so I walk in and yeah. And eventually it switches over to like, I don't know, version music, I, I don't know anything. OK.

44:04 This is my first time ever going to a church and I'm, I think in Liberty, MO at the time. But anyway, what happens next is really interesting and kind of crazy. Eventually the pastor goes up and you know, does his message. I have no idea what like the main topic was or anything, but I had a notebook with me at the time and I'm taking notes.

44:30 No, I'm listening to him and every single scripture reference he made was already written in my notebook from my previous night's research of the Bible. Every single one. There was 8. From your from what you had read. The night before. The night. Before. OK. I don't know how to take notes in a chair. I, I don't even know, like I, I know nothing. And so I wait see people leaving. I'm like, what is this?

45:05 This is crazy. He's someone's got to explain what's happening right now. So I go up to the pastor afterwards and I show him and he thought they were my notes from the church service. Pastor Roy Moran, wonderful guy who was very kind and gracious to me, invited me to come back to church anytime I wanted to go.

45:20 So anyway, yeah, that was just absolutely wild and got my attention, got my attention. And, and so I keep going back reading this amazing, beautiful, crazy, wild book of stories of people like me and you and everyone and like what? And so something's happening. Something's changing in my life. And I'm almost just having these conversations with God, like I, I don't know what's about to happen here.

45:56 I don't know what's happening. And meanwhile, there's some other kind of side stories happening. Like I travel all the time during this time in my life. I, I was reading this book Decision points by George W Bush. Great book and it and even in that book it's just such a beautiful his testimony and and at one point I go to the bathroom or something and when I come back, someone had swapped out my bookmark with some I don't know what it's called. I think I was told like a track or something. I don't know what that is till I hear people talk about that. I don't, but it's just it's like a pamphlet from a church like how to receive Jesus, like 6 steps or something like that. I didn't read it.

46:35 The reason I remember it's on the back of it, there's a stamp from Torrance, CA, that's my hometown from some church. I'm in Dallas, TX on a flight. But anyway, all these like little crazy things are happening sadly. I wish I wrote them down. I don't even remember all of them. But it is just like my life has just changed and there's all this like stuff happening around me almost like spiritual stuff. But I don't know this, you know, like this, this notebook situ or this swapping out of everything that's happening in my life. God is just drying my heart.

47:12 Almost like God is personal for you. Yeah, right. And not, yeah, a judgmental creature in the sky. Yes, yeah, In fact, OK, thank you for sending me. That reminds me one one of the characters or a group of characters I met in the Bible that really resonated with me with the Pharisees, because as I'm reading this book, I'm really just getting the sense that this is just too good to be true.

47:38 Like I, I don't understand how this could just be so everyone's forgiven. Like you're forgiven. You're like, this is just. And so how could it be so easy to like, please the God of the universe, the holy God who's created everything, who's created me and you? And like, where's the accounting and judgement and all this stuff that I've, you know, always been taught?

48:04 And, and the Pharisees are introduced in the New Testament. And wow, they really helped for me answer that question. Not only is grace a free gift of God for him to give to whom he chooses and his mercy to extend to whom he choose, Jesus is like, woe to you Pharisees who put these heavy burdens on other people. Those are the only people I knew in my life were Pharisees, people who condemned people who put burdens, people who were so burdened themselves that that's all they knew and just crushed by the weight of religion, crushed by it. No joy, no hope, no clear path to God or no clear answers to how do you go to heaven?

48:58 Like that's a fair human question, right? I think it is. It's. Probably the most important one if you really want to know. And, and, and if your faith doesn't answer that question and you're just met with more confusion and more questions as you pursue that answer. And that's what happened to me.

49:14 But the Pharisees were really important characters for me because they they were my old people. Like they were my people. They're like that. So I'm like, wow, not only I, Jesus is saying those are the only people he's frowning on from my understanding as I'm reading the Gospels. So I'm sorry, where was I?

49:38 I'm so sorry. I no, I'm, I'm listening to you become awakened to the gospel message. The fact that God doesn't sit in judgement, that God created a plan to come and rescue you. All the things that you have done that have separated from you, from him are real and it's true. But the truth is that he came and took the punishment for you, the version of hot coals on whatever part he took upon himself.

50:25 You just have to believe in him. He did it for you and it it isn't free, it cost him dearly. Seems free to us. We're not having to make the payment, but when we realized that God is love, you're beginning to, you're telling yourself it's too good to be true, that God is love and he loves me and wants me to be with him forever.

50:56 He's not a condemning God who is going to issue out these punishments that I've earned. And so, yeah, you just experienced this thing in Kansas City and and now you're on a flight to Dallas and someone has replaced your bookmark with this pamphlet that talks about. Yeah, I think it was called like 6 steps to know Jesus or give your life to Jesus or something.

51:24 But what's remarkable about that to me is the stamp on the back is from, I think it was called King's Church in Torrance, CA. I'm from Torrance, CA And like, what is happening, all these things. And then on another flight from LA to Kansas City, I am sitting on a Southwest flight. It's I've been on there for about 45 minutes.

51:46 It's been delayed. Friday night flight, going home for a long week. This crazy man comes on and he has a like ton of energy. It's Friday night, calm down. And anyway, he has this jacket over his shoulder. This is in the BlackBerry days. He's typing away furiously on a BlackBerry. And I think he's also having a phone conversation. And like, I'm like, gosh, please don't sit next to me. Please don't sit next to the Southwest Airlines open CD, at least back then.

52:13 And he sits next to me like I'm in the window and he sits in the aisle. And immediately he's like, I'm so glad this flight got cancelled or I wouldn't have made it. Like, you don't say that to someone who's been sitting on a plane for an hour. And I'm like, OK, and, and then I kind of have my whole set up to really ward off, you know, overly talkative men, but have my book out and kind of creating this very peaceful environment.

52:42 And, and then eventually comments on the book I'm reading. It was called 3 Cups of Tea by Greg Mortensen, I think. And he was like, Oh, my friend hiked this is, you know, Mount Everest with Greg Morrison. Like now he's a name dropper. Like it's just like, anyway, eventually he we end up talking and he was very, very funny.

53:06 At one point, I kept looking out the window and it was dar, you know, 30,000 feet. But I had heard on NPR that afternoon that there was going to be a meteor shower. And I had chosen my seat purposely, like looking out for this meteor shower. And at one point he's like, you know, if you don't want to talk to me, that's fine.

53:24 But you don't have to look out in the dark a bit. It's like, it's so interesting. Anyway, we're on a like three hour, 40 minute flight and end up talking the entire time. We ended up exchanging contact information, did some work together for the different companies we work for, and I just knew. I just kind of knew he was a Christian at one point. I asked him, Hey, I am, you know, reading the Bible because I'm an avid reader and is the most well read piece of literature in the world.

54:00 Please don't make me some Christian project, but I'm just curious if you'd be open to answering some of my questions. So it's like, yeah, sure, I'm very kind. And so I'm just wow, like drilling him and grilling him with all kinds of questions. I think I tried to, I asked him to explain the Trinity. That was a really confusing one.

54:22 But anyway, that was in 2010 and we've been married for 13, so yeah, I married the crazy man on the plane, so. I knew this story, I was going to make some remarks since the crazy man on the plane sitting in the room. So anyway, that's a that's an incredible story. And and you know, I would love for someone to say I've got questions about the Bible. Would you be willing to?

54:57 Answer. Then I would, I would, I would love that. I I don't know that I would have. Sure there are scholars that would have much better answers than me, but that's really interesting. I'd love to have here heard how Brant answered the Trinity question. Yeah, that's, that's a sign probably. Yeah, I, and frankly, I don't remember that one.

55:14 What I do remember as I wrestled and wrestled to this, I remember what he said to me that really resonated in my heart. He said, you know, at some point we have to leave room for the mysteries of God because what kind of God would be a good God if he just revealed everything that we can possibly comprehend?

55:32 That really made sense to me. I was able to, you know, I can't understand like my knowledge, no matter what I believe in, God should always be kind of attempting to keep up with him, not the other way around. So that was really profound and resounding. Yeah, and if he's an infinite in his intelligence? Right.

55:52 The most brilliant human is going to only be able to tap into a microscopic part of that. So it it would fry our our beings if we tried, if we were exposed any more than we can digest, right. So anyway, that's a whole other. Conversation, right? So anyway, all these like things are happening in my life. There's people like my now husband. There were also some, you know, it's kind of fascinating. Eventually I came to know Jesus at 32 years of age and there were three people in my life ever who were bold and courageous enough to share Jesus's any in any capacity with me.

56:30 Two sweet ladies who I worked with when I was 19. One of them was very bold and sharing her faith. I don't believe, perhaps I don't recall, but I don't believe that she ever heard the gospel or invited me to church. I do recommend that. I really do. I would have. I would have gone to church had anyone invited me. Really.

56:50 Yeah, that's interesting. I would have. I'm not saying almost since I would have, because it's an honor to be like, wow, you're inviting me to experience your worship experience. And I'm not saying I would have gone as a Christian, but as a guest just to honor my friend and their faith, because Muslims believe in the people of the book, which are the Jews and the Christians.

57:15 And then no one had ever shared the gospel with me. So I, I try to, you know, kind of be aware of that for me moving forward. So these two beautiful ladies. But I, what I do know is that they prayed for me and I believe that's why I stay here with you today. Really, 100%. They probably prayed and fast.

57:35 I mean, they are giants of the faith and they continued to grow. I mean, this is, you know, when I was 19, a long, long time ago. And then another man later on in my life, closer to in my late 20s, amazing faithful man of God, Kyle. He shared his faith with me very boldly and very beautifully. And he just stood out who was so different from the work environment I was in, which was very secular and wild, but he was so different.

58:07 Like he would literally be at our crazy parties, fasting and the sweetest man ever full of joy. And, and he he shared that, you know, I feel like you're already living your life in such like Christian like way. If you only knew Jesus more. And I, I have no doubt he prayed for me and, and it was really interesting when Lord had brought him in my life and I was also secretly like reading the Bible, but I had never shared that with him.

58:39 So anyway, God is just, I mean, when he starts to pursue people, things happen in your life and you start to see things differently and experience things differently. So all this stuff is happening. I'm still reading the Bible secretly and actively rejecting what I'm learning, rejecting the God of the Bible because I know that my entire life will change and I don't want it to change. You know, I liked my life, I like my family, I liked my faith, I liked my people, my community, but I knew that all that would change.

59:12 I wouldn't. I didn't know how or exactly what that would look like, but. This is interesting though, OK, Because you are actively trying to become a better Muslim and in that you discover that the Torah is considered scripture, right? Yes. So in your pursuit of becoming a better Muslim, you get into the Bible because you realize parts of the Bible are considered scripture in that you track along with it. But you keep going.

59:51 You don't stop. Correct. At Torah, you keep going. In fact, you even get to the New Testament and you keep going and you realize that all of the things that happened in the Old Testament were building to Messiah, to the Christ. You can see them. Yeah. All throughout that and he shows up, or at least this Christian version of who Messiah is shows up and he answers all those things.

1:00:29 You believe that as you were reading that, that he encountered you not physically but well within your spirit. Is this true? Yes. I know you gave a little description around there. I'm going somewhere with what I'm saying here, but and maybe later I'll ask you what that means for you. When you feel like you met Jesus, then you experienced him that that's an important piece of this conversation.

1:01:01 But it all adds up. It all makes sense to you, right? And in your mind, if this is true, this is not good news. This is great. This is incredible news. Yeah, but you're not accepting it because of your existing tradition. Is that right? Correct. Existing tradition, family, culture, community, my life.

1:01:38 It's, it's an incredible example of how we hang on to tradition in the face of experiencing the truth, isn't it? I think it happens in, in completely in the Christian world itself as well. People talk about the spirit of religion and, and religion versus relationship. You hear it's kind of cliche ish now, right?

1:02:09 But people are denying things found in Scripture because they challenge the tradition that has developed. So I think we got to pay attention to this, right? You've been presented with an extraordinary message. What you now see is the truth, but it goes against your tradition and you want your tradition, your your tradition's comfortable and safe. And I know this, this is my life. And so when I think of Jesus saying the words, whoever loses his life will gain his life.

1:02:57 It it takes on a whole new deeper spiritual meaning. You must die. Take up your cross. I mean, for you that's like all but literal. It's. It is literal in many ways. It is literal. And who wants to? Who can do that? I mean, as as a Muslim, if you become a Christian, that is apostasy, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not.

1:03:28 I'm no Muslim scholar, but I believe that is punishable by death. Right. All the way up till death. It has to be punished. We'll get into that. Yeah, but. Yeah, so you're actively rejecting Jesus because he is against your tradition, even though the truth is laid out before you and you are beginning to recognize it as the truth.

1:03:53 Exactly. Carry on. Yeah, and I'm rejecting him because of all the things we just talked about, but I'm not able to entirely because how do you just turn your back on the truth like you? How do you choose? I'm just going to live in the darkness, you know? Never mind. I'm going to pretend like I didn't know any of that.

1:04:11 I don't think you can do that. Anyone can. I couldn't. So Easter is coming up and I decide you don't want to go to church, doesn't know what people do on Easter, like, and you do this weird. Like I'm kind of expecting to meet God. I don't know why because he's kind of showing up. So let's go like, can you? It's your big day to like, shine, to go back to the same Adele church.

1:04:37 It's a really sweet place. I mean, yeah, I I've never been like. Hey, there's plenty of secular music that is unintentional Jesus music that I think is Jesus. Oh wow. I don't know Adele is one of them, but maybe. Maybe not. I think they had some kind of like a talent show or something before church service.

1:04:52 To be fair, I don't know what it was. Hey, it drew me at, but this is I, I don't know anything. This is this is, I go back to this church on Easter Sunday and that's where I have my ultimate surrender with Jesus. I just sit in my Pew. I mean, I, I, I think there was an ultra call. I don't know. I didn't do any of that. I just sat there with Jesus and I wept, I wept and I wept. I felt like I was the only one there and I wept and repented on my sins, my unbelief of rejecting him in these leading up to this, it's about 6 year journey. Not not that I was like reading the Bible for that entire six years, but I could look back and almost see the times he had called me to himself, the seeds

1:05:58 that were planted, the people that were sent in my life. And I rejected all of those. And I sat there just between me and Jesus and I told him that I believe you are who you say you are, the Son of God. You're God himself, You're the Messiah, you're the savior of the world. You're the God of the Bible and I, I don't know what my life is going to look like from here. I don't think it's going to look that good. I mean, there's some stuff going to go down and the Holy Spirit told me that your life was going to be hard, but that Jesus would never leave me or forsake me.

1:06:43 And that day on April 24th, 2011, in the Adele Song Church, I, well, Jesus, I was going to follow him. And I mean, I, I just wept like I had. I cried for everything in my life. I cried out of joy. I cried tears of relief. And my life changed that day. Tell me what happened. What do you think happened that day?

1:07:27 I believe I confess Jesus Lord with my mouth. Why? Because I believed everything I read in the Bible about Jesus. What broke because you had been reading it? I, I don't know, I think, I think eventually it had to break. That was just a day. I don't know. I'm interested this is a this in in here is the mystery of God to me in here in spaces like this is where I believe God.

1:08:05 I don't know how to say this, but sticks his finger through the veil and enters earth in a room in his whatever fraction of his being that he does, and and breaks and breaks everything that is earthly. Yeah, yeah. It's it's in this and I love the, the, the microscopic moments. I think it's the microscopic moments that explode the truth of God.

1:08:42 And you could say, OK, well, you know, she's been in America this, you know, since she was six years old. Now, now she's Americanized and she knows Adele, right? And, and all that, right? I mean, what are the arguments here? Because if she's, if she's in a Muslim country, this doesn't happen And all this, I don't know, right? And I want to, I want to surface those things. We, we test things here.

1:09:08 We, we have conversations about the truth. I think there's a spec pinpoint of light of God bursting in, and I think it's somewhere in here. And I think it was also when, when you began to read the New Testament and you were awakened to the fact that it was talking about you and and that you were the people that were being rescued and saved, not condemned. I think it happened there.

1:09:44 Yeah, I know we're going to get to a couple other things where I think it happened, but this is a big deal because you're not just presented with this concept that you. Hey, that's pretty convenient. Maybe I'll jump over to their. Team. Right. That's not what it is. And a lot of people treat Christianity as that. Hey, that sounds good.

1:10:04 If that's true, I'll just I'll just be on. I'll put on their hat. No, it was not convenient nor did I want it like, because I don't know if that makes like to me, Christianity was one for white people, like, you know, it was for people who were really like lost and broken, like you're an alcoholic or a drug addict or, you know, and it, it wasn't anything like how do outside of going to church, I didn't see how Christians practice their faith.

1:10:36 Muslims, you can see them, they're praying, you know, like physically outside they're, they dress accordingly. They, I mean everything and the how they eat, how they. So there's nothing appealing to me about Christianity or the church. I knew I had my eyes wide open. I'm not a child. I'm 32 years of age at this point. I had already been disowned by my family and that was horrific. I'm not doing this a second time around. I don't do this for fun.

1:11:06 And yes, while I'm American, my faith had been like, I lived in a subculture and I lived in a big American city that gives you the the blessing and the freedom of practicing and being who you are. And yeah. Yeah, they're devout Muslims in America, many of them. Yeah, large communities. So that this is this is the space, right? And and it is it is this, it seems to me like he became so real and apparent and in your space as a savior, not as a condemner, but but like invading your space, talk about God initiates.

1:11:56 This is how God initiates in my view. So much so that it it it bowled you over and you had no choice but to confess it. Yeah. And and like, no, I didn't even now I know this. I I don't know how I knew or felt compelled to repent. Where did that come? From I don't know, I have no idea. Maybe just, you know, the abundant abundance of like gratitude.

1:12:24 That's just a common human response. I don't know. Now I know, you know, that's a common like Christian practice. I'm thankful for it, you know, washes me over and I I and and I also think that day on April. I believe that Jesus delivered me from things Stacy. Like I had struggled with the massive unforgiveness in my heart from my childhood for the IT was gone like that now other things I'm still struggling with.

1:12:49 You know, that story is still being. But like, yeah. And all I wanted from even all of that. And I still like this my second time in a church in America. OK, I don't know anything about church life nor. And even with my second time, they're as sweet as it is, it's still not appealing or like, I want to be a part of this. I still don't know anyone.

1:13:11 And and I just come from a really different community. I come from a genuine community and I love that part about my culture and MyHeritage. Western community is kind of a oxymoron in my opinion. It's not community. Like just standing next to a stranger doesn't make community. You don't know their names, you've never had a meal with them. 3 cups of tea is a concept like both.

1:13:36 We don't talk business until we've had three cups of tea with someone just to kind of breakdown those barriers and get to know you personally. So I love those things about my background and MyHeritage. And so yeah, there's nothing appealing to me about this and knowing like, OK, my life's about to blow up, but what was so appealing was Jesus.

1:13:58 I experienced him, I experienced his grace. His love was just like a blanket. You felt that I did in that church. Or in this journey in the church, when I was taking those notes that I came to church with with the first time, as I'm reading, I remember reading the book of Isaiah and just like, what, what is this? You know, who is this man?

1:14:24 What is he talking about? And even now when I read Isaiah, I don't really have that same like when I read Isaiah the first time, it was almost like it was pointing me to something else in the Bible. I didn't. I didn't know that I don't. I don't know that, you know. We, we have conversations with people who are experiencing God and it looks different. And as I said in the opening, some people have a an encounter in their living room and that's, that's, that's amazing. And we love talking about those and capturing them. And there's more to your story, but but if you cannot see how this is a very real, an intentional God actively pursuing you Muslim girl right from all the places you were in, this is impossible.

1:15:25 Yeah. It is you're not you're not getting a Muslim right, not not one that's that devout, not not that. But if you can't see God pursuing you in this, and then on multiple occasions when the timing was right, breaking in and causing you to have to confront tradition with truth to the point where truth has to prevail no matter what it looks like in the face of tradition.

1:16:00 That is amazing to me to watch God through the telling of your story, do those things. I'm also interested you. You said in that service before that you did this confession that you were you were crying. What caused you to cry, do you think from your perspective back then? I know it caused you to cry. I think I was overwhelmed by love and this incredible love that's calling me to lay everything down. That is, that is the gospel messages that that is God. That is God.

1:16:39 Person with a lifetime of condemnation, expecting to receive this terrible punishment and trying to figure out how to avoid it gets bowled over with love. No, that's crazy. It's. Crazy God. God is love. Right, but. That's why I don't know, maybe there's tradition in, in the Muslim tradition where crying takes place in, in I, I don't know, maybe, maybe so, but I've not heard of that. I hear it all the time when the Holy Spirit shows up and, and lands and descends upon a person because they are overwhelmed with love.

1:17:22 And I know that feeling. I used to not not a super emotional crying type. The last 20 years as the Holy Spirit does what he does in my life, I can feel it. I can feel it. It is unmistakable and it is that it is exactly right. It is love. That is incredible that it happened at an Easter service that you weren't like, oh, I'm broken.

1:17:55 I got to go find Jesus and I hope he shows up and I don't know, sounds like God showed up. He did. Absolutely did. And went and had a Muslim girl tell the truth and confess it just so he could bring her into heaven forever and. He revealed all of that to me, you know, and I think it's such a privilege when we get to share God's heart for that, when we get to share the gospel, when we get to invite people what however he chooses.

1:18:26 But God himself called me to the Bible and then in his infinite grace and love, decided to open up my eyes of, I don't know what I'm reading, you know, and reveal all the things that needed to be revealed to show me that my need as a Sinner, his forgiveness and his love. Yeah. So as you can imagine, my life changed after that.

1:19:02 And honestly, Stacy, I'm sure you know this, but you have such an amazing job. We can call that. You see this all the time, but I don't, I don't think you can experience God and not be changed. Right. Like what? Yeah. So. And for me initially, while I've changed for the worst, lost my job, I showed up for the first like for the first time ever in my life, I quit a job. There's a lot of like crazy turmoil and stuff going on. And then it was like 2011.

1:19:42 So this is shortly after, you know, the 2008 nine recession. We're the first time in my life I show up to a closing of selling my house in Kansas City with cash to pay the buyer. Like I mean, just, and I think that happens too. And I want to share that because when you start to follow Jesus, when you're coming out of darkness, it there's some attacks that happened. And so everything in my life, really, some big things start to fall apart and it's not fun, you know, but. At the same time as this is happening, this is drawing me closer to Jesus and I continue to read the word and I continue to discover who Jesus is and I get to know him as my friend and as my leader and as my forgiver.

1:20:41 And he is there. He, I mean, he can deal with kind of any situation and circumstance. And the same time, you know, at this, during the same time, I'm getting closer to the crazy man I met on the flight. And I think, gosh, we met in the end of 2010. It was December 2010 and we married in February 2013.

1:21:07 And then we have and that's when I decided to tell my family during this little time, I don't know, a year, year and a half, I'm just kind of living as a secret Christian, if you will, because I'm trying to figure out what just happened in my life and what does this mean? And I'm not in some rush to like, let me go broadcast this to my family.

1:21:31 But eventually now I have to like a 2 two-part punch. Hey, I am, you know, a Christian and I marry a Christian man. Like, that's a lot for my parents, but that's exactly what I do. And understandably, they're completely devastated. And those are not the hopes and dreams they have for me. They think I've lost my mind and joined a cult. So they do what I believe they consider to be the most merciful thing and completely renounce me. I am dead to them because as we talked about earlier, leaving Islam is considered apostasy in Islam and that's AI think a really, really high sin and people are encouraged to like punish others who do that to make an example so that more people don't leave the faith.

1:22:30 And so if someone's family doesn't do anything, then that leaves other yahoos out there to take kind of justice in their own hands. So anyway, my family and, you know, has a really, really hard time with this and decide to completely coming off from everything, birthdays, holidays, weddings, funerals, gone, completely gone.

1:22:57 And I remember again, I'm travelling for work. I was in LA and I just thought, you know, I'm just going to go to my mom's house. How can she not open the door for me? And I can see my mom in the kitchen. I rang the doorbell, no answer. And then I just sit on her porch and wait. And so. Yeah, so that was that was really hard. About four years of radio silence and then eventually in we have our son Adam in April 2014 and at his birth there's some like complications, pretty common stuff. We know now he had jaundice.

1:23:47 But you know, when you just have a baby and something's wrong, it just seems like your whole world is falling apart. Oh, but there's a, there's a story within that about how I experienced God and I'd like to kind of pause there and share that. So I am having, you know, child for the first time. I've never had a baby and during this time I'm really feeling the loss of my mom and sister.

1:24:12 I really just long for one of them to be there, but that's not the case. Meanwhile, I have my husband with me and that's it. Adam was born in Jupiter, FL and I am in the I'm in my room. Eventually Brant falls asleep and I, I, I can't sleep. I mean, you know, discomfort, not exactly pain, but just discomfort and anticipation of Labor and delivery. And there's this sweet nurse who is with me the whole time and she's bringing me ice chips.

1:24:47 She's holding my hand. She's like rubbing my back and just offering me comfort. I'm like, wow, this is amazing and incredible. And at one point there's a light illuminating off of my belly. I mean, I lay in bed and I had like high blood pressure and I had to lay on my left hand side. I remember that. And I had a few, you know, little issues during my pregnancy.

1:25:11 And so anyway, there's this light illuminating off kind of the center of me. I'm laying in bed. And she just keeps directing me towards that light and directing me to pray and, and she's providing me a lot of comfort. Do this all night long. And the next day morning comes, I have Adam around 1:31 and after kind of the dust settles and you know, I don't know, I have a new baby and all these things I start to ask, hey, where's Mary?

1:25:44 Mary, the nurse who was with me last night. And I think my husband, I, I don't remember if he had seen her or not, but I asked my immediate people who are helping me, the nurses and the other staff and they're like, we don't, I don't know Mary, but let me go see what I can find. I'm very persistent. Like I really want to thank Mary. I mean, she was a godsend.

1:26:03 I don't know how I could have gotten through this without her. But I do remember the next day she wasn't there. So she wasn't part. And I'm like, OK, well, she's not part of this team. Well, eventually we persist. At this point, even Brant is helping me ask because I'm just like, I have to see Mary before we leave the hospital.

1:26:21 Eventually they come back and say there is no Mary in our hospital. There's no one by the name of Mary who works here. I think that was a ministering Angel. Did you say that there was someone in my room last night? Someone. In my room the whole night and they're like, we don't know, no nurses are going to be with you all night long.

1:26:41 Maybe people came in to check on you. I'm like, no, she was here the entire time. What? You brought me ice chips. There's this light. They're like, what light? I'm like, I don't know. I just. Well, I was going to ask you about the light. Is this like a lamp that they have to keep you warm? Is that? AI.

1:26:56 Don't know, I'm a three time dad. I'm not experienced that before. It was just coming. It was coming from you, it. Kind of hovered over me, kind of hovered over me. I, I, I, I remember seeing the lie. I don't know, I thought the same thing. Like maybe there's like machinery in here or something. But like later I'm thinking about that. That sounds ridiculous.

1:27:17 No machinery. Like, you know, there's the regular hospital machinery, but it was like emanating like it was hovering over my belly, like where my baby is and, and, and I didn't even think like I, I'm thinking in my mind an Angel would be like reading scripture with me, praying with me. I don't, I don't know why that was the crazy.

1:27:40 Jada, this was not in your video. No, Yeah, yeah. You're kind of giving me this is news to me. This is like this is like really challenging to the non the theory of the non existence of of God. So you think, I mean you guys, you're telling me that you and, and now Brant are in active pursuit of the woman that was in your room all night last night that's rubbing my back and comforting me and giving me ice chips? And pointing me to the light.

1:28:24 And pointing you to the light and you're telling me the staff has no knowledge of a a person that would have been in your room? I mean, they're monitoring you. Exactly. Throughout the night is is there not other people coming in? I'm trying to. I don't recall anyone else coming in, or if they did, I I don't remember that. Maybe they did.

1:28:46 Maybe they didn't think anything of anything. I can. You describe this woman. Yeah, she was just, you know, wearing like, blue scrubs like all the other nurses. Lovely young lady, maybe late 20s, early 30s, brown hair, Caucasian. I mean, just look like an ordinary person. I just assumed she's a nurse and I never had a child.

1:29:09 Later I'm asking my friends this, like, did you have a nurse with you the whole time when you had, you know, one of four children? No, no one's having a nurse the whole time. When it's close to delivery. Yes, No, this is overnight. Like I we had to check in at like 6:00 PM that evening. I didn't have.

1:29:26 We've done this. Yeah, that is extraordinary. And she was directing you to focus your attention on the light over your belly. I know it sounds ridiculous. Yes. It didn't even hit me or my husband until two days after we left that. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I don't know what I don't know how to question that further right.

1:29:56 And how do you explain things without God? Always look at that and I and often in things where we do experience God, there is the possibility of explaining it through other natural causes. And I like to ask those questions because I like to ask what's the difference between what would have been the natural cause and what you believe to be experiencing God. And usually the person can can distinguish what makes it different.

1:30:27 And that's one of the things that makes what we do so cool is because people who experience God often, even though they don't realize it, can articulate in in ways that really help people understand it. And that's why we ask the questions we ask that are the skeptical questions. So it gives people an opportunity to to reveal the truth about how God actually showed up.

1:30:53 And it wasn't just my imagination. Oh, or the. Yeah, that's a part of the staff change that takes place. You know, there's a season where there's a overlap. You explored it maybe. That's crazy. Very cool. All right. I didn't know that. Yeah, I just, I, I don't know, I think that's just how Jesus was being so kind and gracious, you know?

1:31:16 He says in Mark 10, like anyone who loses brothers or mothers or sisters or fathers or houses or fields, for my name's sake or the sake of the gospel, we'll receive all those things a hundredfold with persecution. Yeah. But I, Yeah, it's just incredible. I mean, if I, if we had 10 more hours, I might be able to begin to tell you all the ways that he's been so faithful and kind and gracious to me. And it is hard, you know, this life is hard, but it is amazing how Jesus shows up so.

1:31:53 So you had your little one. Yeah. And I just think, yeah, as I longed for my mother and sister, I was like, wow, what a beautiful comfort. And so I had my little one, and he got really sick, and three weeks after he was born, my siblings were kind enough to put my parents on a flight from LA to Florida, where we were living. And they came, and that's when the Lord helped start the reconciliation process with my family. Oh, so good that they came.

1:32:20 So good. Oh my gosh, yeah. So sweet. And, you know, life isn't, things are usually not. I mean, they're not the same as they used to be, and that's OK. And yeah, so when I was kind of taken back in my family, it came with a lot of rules. Rule #1 do not mention the name of Jesus. Rule #2 you will never like, you know, witness or kind of evangelize anyone. And yeah.

1:32:56 And so I'm just really grateful. I adore my family, love them and I'm thankful to have a relationship with them. And yeah. Oh, and then I wanted to share one more story. I was trying to like as I prepare for this, you know, you always ask everybody how do you experience God? But so 2011 experience Jesus personally, I feel like Jesus tells me the gospel himself and you know, and then 14 I have Adam and then not that I didn't have a lot of other things, but these are kind of like significant enough to be able to share into a story.

1:33:36 I feel like I experienced A ministering Angel. And then 2017 my husband and I went to Israel with our church. At the time we were living in South Florida and it was a 10 day trip to Israel. Just beautiful. And throughout the 10 days, I, I mean, everywhere I went, I felt the presence of Jesus kind of like back in 2011.

1:34:05 At this point when I did, as I was reading the scriptures in the streets of Jerusalem, in the Garden Tomb, in the Old City in the Jordan River, I just was sensing almost like Jesus was with me in Israel. And we were on this like, you know, church trip. There is about 100 people total. We were divided into two buses. Our bus had 50, the other bus had 50. And I think kind of day 2 into it, people started asking me, like, what's happening with you?

1:34:43 Like you seem to be having an experience. Can you describe it? Can you explain it? I, I had no words. I cried a lot, but I wasn't like so I didn't think I was like overtly weeping that like sobbing or like loudly, but people just kept asking me something seems to be happening with you and at one point this would probably day. I think about the half of our trip into it around day five. It was a sweet one of the sweet pastors wife. She said, I think you're experiencing, you're called a ministry and that's what you're experiencing right now. And also she shared it kind of by way of explanation to other people.

1:35:32 And then during this trip, this is the one and only time I have had a vision so far in my life. We were sitting on the bus waiting to go to wherever we were going next, and I saw kind of what was going to happen. And that was the pastor stood in front of the bus with a microphone in his hand, wearing exactly what he was wearing, and he asked me to come up and share what I was experiencing with everybody on the bus.

1:36:06 Really simple, nothing profound. That happened exactly 30 minutes after I saw that vision. OK, time out. I got to ask some questions around these experiences here. I know you're not through with Jerusalem or Israel vision. Can you describe that? Was that just not you daydreaming? What do you mean you had a vision? Yeah, because it's the only time I've ever experienced this. I'll try my best to explain it.

1:36:41 So it's like I had, I see this movie clip like a short 5 second movie clip in my head. Like I mean it's like I'm watching it. My eyes are open, I'm not sleeping, I'm wide awake and I can see it with my eyes open and I hear even words in this of the person speaking. And that exact scene happened 30 minutes later.

1:37:10 Did you tell anybody had this vision? I think I told my husband. I just had a vision that Fred's going to get on the mic up there. Right. And asked me to share my testimony, as crazy as that sounds. Yeah, plus, though it doesn't like it was also for me, I don't know, I would expect the vision to be more profound, like, I don't know, like that just seems so kind of ordinary and I.

1:37:36 Don't know that I've had a vision. I don't know that I had a vision, right? I know I have an imagination. I can imagine just about anything, which kind of leads to the question I would have had before this. You said, you said you felt like you were experiencing Jesus in the places that you went.

1:38:01 OK, So how is that not just sort of a a perception shift now that you're in the place, right? If if you're a an avid Elvis fan and you went to Graceland right back in the 60s and 70s or wherever, you know, I thought he was cool because he had three TV's mounted in his wall, right? And had this crazy green shag carpet and all this other stuff. Total 70s got.

1:38:35 It's like being doing a tour of Graceland, seeing that that. And it's like, Oh my gosh, it's like, I'm here with him. How is it not just your imagination creating a perspective shift? Or was it? How was it anything different than that? Yeah, it was. Well, it wasn't my imagination at all, because I'm there like I'm experiencing Israel for the first time in my life. I've never been here, but really what started happening to me was like the Bible came alive, like in 3D. It was like these stories.

1:39:14 Tell me about that. Like the old city and the gates. It's almost like I could, I didn't. I'm not saying I saw visions or anything, but it's almost like I could experience. I could put myself back in time and, you know, see it kind of get this glimpse of what it was like when Jesus walked those streets, but particularly the garden tomb was very like, I could barely stand up.

1:39:47 I, I was just like emotionally overwhelmed, wrecked. That's the word I remember thinking. And I and as I look back at that experience, that's how I feel. Like I didn't know I was overwhelmed by his grace and his love all over again, like I was back in 2011 when I first met Jesus. But I could feel his presence like I like, like almost like I was there before Jesus, you know, went and died on the cross, Like I was part of his group of friends and disciples. And and I was like speechless and I had nothing to say. And I just kept asking like, what can I possibly offer you in response?

1:40:29 You know how? And all I said, and I wrote this, we recently found these communion cups that we brought back from Israel and I just said I give you my life. Jesus, I surrender it all. But I was just so beautiful and precious and like, I wish I, I wonder if I could go back to Israel and feel that all over again.

1:40:50 But. Yeah, well, I, I've never been to Israel. I'll be honest with you. It is I only have one bucket list item and that is it. So if you, if you, if anybody wants to sponsor a trip from McCann's family to go, I would love, I would. I can only, I can only imagine being on site at the various locations that you tour as you go.

1:41:13 Knowing the Bible like I do, and my own personal relationship, I can imagine what it must be like to to be at the tune to be. The Jordan River. Yeah, in the garden, Yeah, right. And and all those. Scenes We were in the upper room too, like. Yeah, So, so, so put yourself in what history says is the exact location of these events. And it's, it's not too much of A stretch to to put yourself there, right?

1:41:55 I'm sure there's a psychological term for it that I I just don't know right for that. And I think that in and of itself would be powerful. Are you saying that you believe that not only did that happen, but something beyond that occurred or was it, would you think? No, that's probably categorizing it well, to say imagine that you are there. And then what it would be like knowing that scripture so well that you like, can, in your imagination, put yourself there with him.

1:42:29 No, I would say something more happened because, for example, the experience you're describing, I think my husband experienced that. You know, he's like a total Bible nerd. And at one point it was really cute. Like the pastor just asked him like, right, why don't you tell us about Daniel 9 or something as we went through? So he was like, you know, having a blast, like the Bible also came alive to him and he was like re kind of following Jesus's steps and stuff.

1:42:56 And it's so cool for all of us. But my experience, it was debilitating. Like I wanted to just relax and enjoy this beautiful journey through Israel by the Mediterranean and eating this amazing food, the land of milk, of honey, literally. But meanwhile, I'm wrecked. I'm just like, I wish no one else was there because I'm just like having, you know, I'm overwhelmed and I just want to sit at the feet of Jesus. I want to sit at the cross and hunker down there and wait until he tells me like what I'm supposed to do. But I, I, I am wrecked, like broken inside all over again. And I just want to give my life to Jesus. I don't even know what that like fully means, but I am just searching for an appropriate

1:43:45 response of what I can offer in return for this incredible, undeserving free love. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And I hope and I think a lot of people can experience something really amazing in Israel. I think that that land is special. I really do. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean. Certainly I think it's, you know, it's holy.

1:44:13 I'm not been, but certainly right. I get that. So did you get up in front of the bus and give your testimony? I got up in front of the bus and tried to get my testimony, but then the weeping and, and it wasn't quite my testimony. I, I just felt like I, I needed to share what was happening in that moment.

1:44:34 And I do recall sharing my burden not only for Jews, but the Muslims also. They're like, that was the other really beautiful thing, how diverse Israel is, you know, like they're all Middle Eastern and they look gorgeous and beautiful and, but they're Christians are Armenians, Jews, Muslims and who have probably a ton more.

1:44:57 But it was really, it would really impress on my heart. Like naturally, most of the Christians, the church people with us had such a heart for the Jews as we should, right? But the, the Muslims that they saw there, I don't think people quite have the same heart for them. And, and so I, I shared just a little bit about how my heart for the Muslims that I prayed that, you know, and just shared like, I, I don't know what's happening to me right now on this bus or on this tour, but something's happening.

1:45:26 And I don't know if I'll understand it more at the end of this trip or at any point in my life. But what was really interesting to me, that was intriguing to me was that other people kept asking me what's happening with you? And I wish I could go back to them and ask like, why were you asking? Did you see something on my face?

1:45:47 Like how, how could you tell? I didn't. It didn't occur to me to ask that. It was really sweet. One lady gave me these beautiful handmade handkerchiefs. She's like, I feel like I and you know, Stacey, you you might not believe. I don't I'm not a crier. I mean, you can sit there and tell me like the saddest. I don't cry at funerals and and I feel like there's something wrong with me.

1:46:05 But at the name of Jesus, I don't know. It's just it's just different. I'm. With you sister. I caught movies. I I just. Yeah. So, yeah, Israel is so, so amazing and special. And I look forward to you and your family going. Yeah. For sure. So what has happened? I mean, we have conversations with with people who've experienced God.

1:46:35 You've given us several instances of that, but then when you look holistically at the the end breaking in his pursuit of you to bring you into this place now and you're experiencing and encountering him, are you? Is that ongoing? Where? Where are you now in your faith journey? Yeah, I think it's so interesting. That question is so amazing.

1:47:02 Even as we sit here and speak now, I think there's a part of your story being told phase of yours and mine, you know, but what's happened? And I feel like I'm such an infant still at in April 24th this year, in 12 days, I'll be 15 years old in my spiritual age. But wow, it's been like, I feel like these are the only 15 years of my life that I have been alive and it has just been such an incredible journey. And the Jesus's promise from Mark 10 has been so, so true in my life.

1:47:34 He's been so kind and gracious. I feel like that promise is comes in relationships like he says, when you lose mothers and brothers and sisters and fathers, like he gives us those people. And he is just blessed me with such abundant relationships that have helped me grow, that continue to help me grow. We were at our church in South Florida. I love our church.

1:47:57 There's so much family church. I did a two year, what they call it like this residency program. It's kind of like seminary light, going through spiritual gifts, the scriptures and all this just to prepare people for either lay ministry or church ministers. I thought, wow, I can't believe I got to do that. It was such a gift.

1:48:20 Currently, I am part of community Bible study. Love that dearly. I so I lost community when I came into the church and community Bible study is the sweetest place. I, I feel like it's for me, I have more community there than even church life. You know, it's just different like how we do church in, in America, we get together on Sunday mornings and that's kind of different than really doing life with people.

1:48:51 Yeah. A lot of churches are small group focused now, which is really good. It's creating that community that you're talking about now. I think that's really important. It is, it is. And we, we do that. It just, it takes a long time, you know, to get to new people and do life with them. And it's a beautiful thing. So, yeah, I don't, I, I, I can't believe I get to raise our son who's going to be 12 in two days on April 14th to be a disciple of Jesus Christ.

1:49:18 I mean, never saw that one coming. And my husband Brant, I think something's really happening in his life as we speak right now. So and then, yeah, I think we're as a family, we're just starting to learn. Like when I say just through your podcast, Stacy, like as of December of this past year, 2025, we were introduced to Beatty Carmichael's Prayer of freedom.

1:49:45 We were introduced to Johan Burns to the triumph of Hope and all the I mean, yeah, that's another story that I'll have to come back and I'll be share with you, you know, post when God brings those type of people in your life. And that's from your podcast. I mean, and it's like life changing things are happening right now.

1:50:05 I can't speak into them right now because I don't even know what's happening. It's another one of those like just kind of stand back and wait. Yeah, well, gosh, I think of Johan and Beatty Jahan Burns. We'll pop the episode. There's a it's a two-part thing I think we did with Jahan. Extraordinary story.

1:50:24 She was also Muslim and her awakening is very powerful and she is a she is a mighty warrior for the Kingdom and just a beautiful, compassionate, a powerful person of faith. And I'm so glad that you have encountered her. I think you guys are getting to know each other now and which I love that. And but when I think of Jehan and Beatty deals with this in the prayer of freedom too.

1:50:58 It's truly about recognizing where there may there needs to be healing, where there needs to be deliverance so that you are living the fullness of the life that God has for you without any other things hanging on that have attached themselves to you through the course of your life, through sin, through unforgiveness, whatever they else they may be.

1:51:27 Are you are you in that space? Are you in deliverance? Are you, have you had any sort of deliverance encounters? Do you feel like that's taking place in in various pieces of your faith walk or taking place now? Yeah, yeah, I so it's interesting. I'm just kind of learning about what deliverance means according to the scriptures, you know, through people like Beatty and Johan and some others, frankly, all your guests.

1:51:51 We've had plenty of them. I forget his last name. JKL. Yeah, JKL. Yeah. Awesome and his book. Was fantastic and it, you know, to me it's scriptural. Like I don't know why or how for sure. I've read those scriptures and kind of whatever I, you know, So yes, to answer your question, I, when I look back now, I really believe that on that day, April 24, 2011, when I sat in that church, I kind of confess with my mouth that Jesus is who he says he is. You know, the God of the Bible, the God of my life, the Savior of the world.

1:52:22 I believe like I was delivered that day from a lot of things. And I think, Stacey, that as a former Muslim, there's stuff you have to be delivered from. I think so. Yeah, yeah. Like it doesn't matter. Period And I think he delivered me from so like the, the, there was a supernatural forgiveness that happened in my heart that I could, I tried and tried and tried for 32 years to handle that on my own and I couldn't. Now there's other things that I'm just learning about and going through and I, I'm, I think I'm on day 67 of the prayer freedom.

1:52:57 Like it's just kind of like an ongoing thing, you know, but it's just been such a beautiful thing to learn. And I like God calls us to holy, righteous living. That's what it's about to me. Deliverance. I keep short accounts with the Lord, confess your sins earnestly seek communion with God and let nothing come in the middle of it. That's right.

1:53:19 You know, So that's what we're learning through now. And there's some, there's definitely some just through walking through the prayer of freedom. It was crazy. So I listened to the podcast. It was a long podcast with baby part my, part my, I think as it should have been. It could have been double that size. And then I'm a podcast junkie, so I listen to a lot of stuff. I was like, gosh, I really need my husband to listen to this. And I was at the gym.

1:53:45 I prayed and asked, Lord, would you please just open Brant's heart to, you know, help him listen to this. And questioningly, I went ahead and shared it with him. I told him it's a long podcast, but definitely worth your while. To my surprise, he had listened to it that evening by that evening, and then he was the first one to order the book.

1:54:05 And so it was just amazing as we're learning like the Lords of Gracious to continue to reveal more and more of him to us and just Jesus died so that we can have abundant life and like real abundant and I think we just keep I don't think we can ever exhausted or learn what that is on this side of heaven.

1:54:27 I think you're right. No, that's really good and it's amazing. I feel like the closer I get to God and the more I acknowledge areas where I've, I've held on to sinful things, things that separate me from God and forgiveness, whatever else it may be, that the closer I get to Him, the more open the ocean of God's goodness becomes apparent.

1:54:58 What I thought would be, Oh, I, I'll experience this and I'll get it right. And it's like it, it, it's, it's a, it's a funnel going outward. The further you get out, the more there is to experience. And so I love that you've been in for 15 years now and you recognize yourself as an infant. I think that is a brilliant truth that every single Christian should feel that way. Even if the people on the planet view you as someone who is filled with spiritual wisdom, if you don't view yourself as an infant, then you don't understand the bigness of God. And I think that is amazing.

1:55:43 So let me ask you a question that might be a little bit of a challenge. Describe the God that you know now, especially in contrast to the gods you knew as a Muslim. OK, the God I know now only I'm passionate and and a Redeemer and it was so crazy as like sometimes those words seem like oxymorons. Like how could a God be holy and redemptive? And it's a.

1:56:36 Great question. Yeah. My life is just one story after another of redemption, Stacy. Like it is not about perfection or I can just this time I'm going to get it right with God. Like, you know, this time I'm going to go through my whole weekend knots and no, that's on this side of heaven. That's not possible.

1:56:55 But my God is so gracious and so kind, yet He's perfectly holy and perfectly righteous. And he's also in his kindness and wisdom as my Father in heaven has disciplined me, but his redemptive grace over and over and over in my life. And you know, that's why I really wanted to share. Like, the first time around, my family disowned me.

1:57:25 I was 22 years old. I really had nothing at that time. No, not even a checking account to my name. I had to wait for my next paycheck to come before I took a credit card cash advance to like float myself for two weeks like I had nothing. Second time around when I came to know Jesus 10 years after that at age 32, it was just really beautiful.

1:57:47 Like it's not like it wasn't painful, but God had used that pain in my life to kind of prepare me for the second the zoning. But my God, the God of the world, whether we know him or not, he doesn't change who he is, is holy, righteous, also magnanimously redemptive and loving and gracious. The God that I was taught about formerly in Islam is a unforgiving and judging God who isn't very merciful. What did you come here to do?

1:58:45 I came to obey the Holy Spirit and as I told you at the beginning, I, you know, I, I love your show and I feel like my story doesn't. I think people we tend to do that. Our story doesn't seem that interesting to us, right, because it's common to me. So I just, and I think it would seem like naturally, of course, I have a burden for Muslims or from what I came from.

1:59:22 However, I've seen other people, Stacey, who have a burden for Muslims like who are being called to go to. We recently met this sweet, sweet young couple who has, they feel a call on their life to go live in Pakistan as missionaries like these two white southern people. I think that's amazing and beautiful.

1:59:43 I don't feel like I have that call in my life. Do I love the Muslims? Do I pray? Yes. You know where I felt a real burden ever since I came to know Jesus is for the churchgoer who's deceived the Matthew 7 get away from me. I never knew you. The scripture tells us these people claim to cast demons in the name of Jesus like they have experienced, maybe been up close and personal to experience God.

2:00:18 I just wonder, were you just like, did you know the pastor or were you just kind of close in it? That's the burden I have on my heart for biblical literacy in the church, for people who might be deceived in the church who think they know Jesus. But if you haven't experienced Jesus and after you experienced Jesus, you're not unchanged.

2:00:41 And I would just invite you to ask. I would just invite you to ask God to reveal himself. That's a God. That's our God. He does that like go, we just celebrated Easter, you know, go see the tomb. It is empty. It's a resurrected king has the power to show himself to people. Whether you're Muslim, you're Jewish, you're confused, you're new, whoever, whoever, we all are the same.

2:01:12 You're either lost or you know Jesus. So that that's my greatest desire, that wherever we are, we would just ask for the next step and he will show up because that's what God does. Yeah, a couple of things there. There have through the stories that have taken place and been told here at this table, many people that have found hope out of addiction out of come out of new age, even unbelief to pursue God. And we are we thank God for those things. But if you were to pull me aside, say Stacey, where where where is your heart?

2:02:02 What what is your driving purpose around this? My heart is for the same it it it is for the person who is in and out of church every Sunday that doesn't know God and thinks they do because they know about God, because they have clung to the tradition of the Western church. And we are watching the church reshape itself to get away from the malnourished version of itself where we just do these things and we don't experience God into experiencing God again.

2:02:49 And it's not about chasing emotional experiences. It's about truly knowing God. If if you can say you know about God, good. But if you were really pressed, do you know God and how do you answer that question? That's what that's what in my heart is what I personally want out of what we do with a stronger faith than than anything else. And do I want atheist to come to know God? You better believe it and New Age and you know, addicts and people who live for the world and all those things and and all of us at some point have been some version of that, right? And so but yeah, it's for that person going in and out of the churches for sure.

2:03:47 What do you say to Muslims that are watching this, that are I cannot believe this woman is coming out and saying these things. She's so mistaken about these things around Muhammad in the Quran and the tradition. It's beautiful and how dare she and and any of the other things that may be their thoughts. Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of beauty in Islam. And.

2:04:18 Frankly, the Muslim people, there are people who are not atheists. They believe in God and the existence of God. They see God. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I, I think I did. My mom pursues. She spends 8 to 10 hours a day on her prayer ride. But I would say, why haven't you experienced God?

2:04:41 Why are you living in darkness? There is a joy in your life. And yeah, I'm sure I offend people. That's not my desire or goal. But I when you're deceived by the enemy of God, it's there's no joy in that existence. And whether you're Muslim or whoever, if you don't have joy and you think you know God, something's missing there.

2:05:20 But to the Muslim, I would say if you have any doubt, you have any potential doubt, ask God, Ask God, start where you are, ask him to show you the truth of who he is. You've lived most of your life to this point as a Muslim. Yeah. 2/3 of it actually, if I'm calculating that correctly. Only one third is a Christian. What causes you causes you to believe that Christianity is the truth?

2:06:03 Wow, I'm Jesus is the truth following Jesus, being a Jesus follower. If we I think, you know, we call that Christianity. That's great. I just, I think there's a difference between church life and personally knowing and then that like that's what. We talked about. Right. And so sometimes that's just scary, like, even for me, like if I invite someone to church, are they going to experience Jesus in my church? I yes, my church they are.

2:06:41 Because there's people who love Jesus and they look like him and they act like him on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday and every other day of the week. So I'm Jesus. Yeah. I wish. I wish I could say something else, but in my experience that was the whole reason for this upside down shift and Jesus, the God of the Bible, Jesus God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, God of the universe, they alone have the power to actually do things.

2:07:19 And if you know a Christian, which you know many, Stacy, there has been a profound before and after in our lives that is not human, that's not natural. We can't change these things in ourselves. We can't manufacture joy or hospitality. That's like, or wanting to actually do things or there's like radical generosity.

2:07:40 I never did any of those things. I did good things, lots and lots of good things. Tons. My parents still do. All of my family does better things than a lot of other Christians I know. But when we're pursuing Jesus and we're trying our best to pursue the Holy Spirit and obey the Holy Spirit, like the things that we're called to do. A few days ago, we just got back from a spring break trip to London.

2:08:06 I have to tell you this quick story. We got to an Airbnb that was quite disappointing, didn't live up to the pictures and all the things. And we own and operate to Airbnb, so we know the rules on the both sides. We had every right to get a refund and we did. And we went along and went to a different hotel. Come back and as clear as I'm talking to you today, I hear the Holy Spirit, not audibly, but just tell me, reach out to that Airbnb owner and give him his money back. Why?

2:08:46 Why doesn't even make sense. I don't want to do this. How weird and awkward. Like he's, he owed us our money like that. Just it's just crazy, you know, like, and I'm asking the Lord why he's like, I'm trying to teach you radical generosity. I don't want to learn. I mean, I do, but yeah, I don't. I mean, you can't know.

2:09:15 Knowing God and walking it is true living. I have lived. Here is that place, I think that maybe the question is coming up for me and I don't know the Muslim tradition and I should be more versed just so I understand people and what they're dealing with. And maybe I should, I'll, I'll, I'll see if I can put that on the on the schedule to, to, to get a richer appreciation.

2:09:47 I don't recall hearing Muslims talking about hearing God talking to them personally. Oh yeah, I'm not aware of that either. I don't know. I I just don't know. It doesn't seem like I have. I haven't either. That's a good. But when I talk to Christians, I'll be honest with you, I talk to a lot of Christians and they say the same thing, except maybe I hear an answered prayer or I get revelation through scripture. People that I have conversation with that say they know God that they actually are in a relationship with often discuss how there is almost an ongoing dialogue or they certainly recognize His voice For the Holy Spirit to tell you to reach out to a person who wronged you and rightfully you got your money back for it and just give them

2:10:52 the money again. Right. The right thing to do is, is, is not that right, right. It's important that they learned that's not the way an Airbnb runs all kinds of things around. Not not just justice, but the other, but for God, for you to say you are confident that God told you to do something that's so counterintuitive to who you are or who you'd be or decision. You would make 100%.

2:11:20 I had it happen the other day. I mean, it was, it was overwhelming. I, I was looking out the window and there was a, a woman on the corner. I was in the turn lane left. There was two other lanes and then she's standing on the corner. She's about to cross the road and as clear as day. I heard give that woman $50.00. I just been handed a $50.

2:11:50 I'm like what? Yeah, $50 Why? Why would I give her a $50? She seems to be a normal person just walking down the road, crossing the street and and I'm like, I'm in the turn lane left. She's way over there. Am I going to am I going to come over here? Do I get out of the car and just leave it parked in the road?

2:12:09 How does this even happen? Right. Right, So what did you do? I turned left. Yeah. I'm like, OK, and I I didn't get a half mile down the road and it was profound. And I'm like, OK, whatever. I mean, I guess I'll turn around. I was like, if you really want me to do this, make her show back up again.

2:12:31 I drove for half an hour trying to find her gone. And I did not feel condemned for it. I just felt disobedient and and, and that's not a good feeling. But you're thinking, OK, what do you mean God told you to do this? I know. I don't know how to explain it to you other than it was so pressed on my spirit. I don't have $50.00.

2:13:01 I I I run a non profit believe me right? Yeah, I need that money, Yeah. And, and it was like, no, you don't, yeah, no, you don't. I, I, I provide. And it was just, it was just an opportunity to be obedient. And I think I was obedient. I think I, I, I turned back around. I looked everywhere for.

2:13:18 I was like. And I think he was pleased that I, I didn't just carry on. It's like, that was just my own crazy thoughts, right? But I guess the point of it is people who I believe are in an active relationship and a pursuit of knowing God know the difference between their imagination talking to themselves and God speaking to them. And I think we are experiencing him and the stories and the adventure and the fulfillment that comes from that is extraordinary.

2:13:52 And it is not the enemy. So if you think that's us, if you're thinking, oh, that's just a a demon, no, it's not. No, it's not. It's not going to produce joy and love and peace and all the fruit of the Spirit. So yeah. And when I experience those things and I have conversations with people like you who are experiencing those things and believe they are actually encountering and experiencing communication with the eternal God, I don't know. I think it's a really good case for it actually being true if the truth resides there, that God is love. God knows how powerful he is.

2:14:36 God knows he could obliterate he he. So is he just toying with us so that he can torment us when we're less than perfect? I don't know, man. I don't think so. I don't. Think so. I don't think so if Jesus did the things that scripture and other places account for and he says this is how it works and it's it is rooted in love.

2:15:09 I think every other climb the ladder religion doesn't it contradicts what he what he taught and did. One of the things that was a stumbling point for me is what you just brought up. I remember reading the scriptures and learning there's no two ways you are either in camp God, God of the Bible, or against him.

2:15:42 Like I was so offended by that. Stacey Like what? No, like first of all, there's multiple ways to get, you know, like, sure. Every other religion is offended by that. Yeah, I was so offended by that. That was probably the source of my actively rejecting Jesus for as long as I did. But. But if you're if, if there is an enemy of God, how do you undermine God by creating one option?

2:16:15 Right. Or making it look like God is just another item on a shelf of a million things. Oh, they're exclusive. It's just the one way. It's like, no, there is only one. There is one way. The enemy of God has sown a lot of alternatives for you to choose from. Just choose an alternative. That's a big deal.

2:16:44 Yeah. I wondered what you came to do. And as a as a person who was Muslim, when we speak out, it's risky. As a person who knows the truth, to not speak out is a crime. Isn't it a moral crime if you if if people you know are dying of thirst and their death is imminent and you don't show them where the water is?

2:17:19 What what, what does that make you? Where is loving that? And I think it puts Muslims between a rock and a hard place. Muslims are increasingly choosing the truth over tradition. I see it and and for you to come here is extraordinary to me. And, and not just to say, hey, I think I'm a subscriber to this Jesus thing because it sounds good and it gets me into heaven like I was looking for in the 1st place.

2:17:55 But to say in my pursuit of being a better Muslim, I encountered the God of the Bible and his Son, and I was overwhelmed with love and I experienced him and I now know the truth. That's really powerful to me. That's the thing that I think the enemy did work over these last several days in each of our lives to stop.

2:18:36 I feel it my bones and know it. I don't know what God's doing in the hearts of people that are listening to this and Muslims are listening to this. And that's not up to me. It's not up to me. Our job is to have a conversation about the way you have experienced God, and we have done that, and the transformation that has taken place in your life when it costs you your family, but you have family and your family's growing and the story's not over yet.

2:19:20 And so many other places where the doors seem to be closed and for you to come and share and speak out in such a public way like this. It's just a quiet room here with just the three of us, But God takes it and turns it out into the world and it will be out in the world is extraordinary faith and trust in God. And I find that very, very powerful. So Jada Wilson, wonderful Job.

2:19:54 Thank you for coming. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for your podcast changing my life in real time as I as I sit here before you. So thank you so much. Well, this is all done in prayer, through prayer. And we ask God to do mighty things through this work. It is not us, of course. And there's a lot of people that are prayer engines behind this. And we believe we're praying the will of God when we pray what we pray.

2:20:23 And we believe he's answering those prayers and doing things out in the world. And, and it's through the obedience of people like you and your family for coming here. And so it's just everything about that is beautiful. I just really appreciate it. Thank you. I think Sujada's story is powerful because this wasn't just about the cost of following Jesus, as high as that was.

2:20:47 It was about God pursuing her as a Muslim, revealing himself to her, and making himself so real that she can never turn away. As someone who was seeking God through Islam for decades, she ultimately found the truth in Jesus and what she found in Him was worth everything. So whether you come from Islam, another faith, watered down Christianity, or no faith at all, truly seek God. Scripture and experience tells us that He will make Himself known to you, and I promise it'll be worth it. Thank you for joining us today on A Stronger Faith. For more conversations of people experiencing God like this one, make sure you're subscribed to our channel so you don't miss any of them.

2:21:40 If you've experienced God, whether through an encounter or revelation, healing, deliverance, or any other way, we'd love to know about it. I encourage you to visit astrongerfaith.org/contact and follow the guest recommendation instructions there. You may be a great guest with us, where your story could be what God uses to bring people around the world into the truth of Christ.

2:22:09 And if you feel like God's prompting you to support this ministry financially, please visit astrongerfaith.org/give for some simple giving options. This ministry is fueled by the experiences of our guest and the generosity of our audience. Until next time, we pray that God awakens you to more of what He has for you and that He builds a stronger faith in you and in those you love.