Blind Spot | EP 5 | The Confidante

0:06 On January 23, 2024, Paul Augustine heard a knock at his front door.

0:11 Paul seemed reluctant to get too close to the officers, who were now standing in his living room.

0:21 Why are you scared, Paul?

0:23 Okay, because....

0:34 Because cops are, I've never had this happen.

0:37 Take it away. You're okay.

0:38 I'm nervous and I want to let my mom know.

0:41 What's going on?

0:42 I'm really, really scared.

0:45 The walls were closing in on Paul. I'm Andre Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 6, Episode 5, Blind Spot. In the last episode of Betrayal, the wrong man was arrested for stalking and harassing Carl Bryan. All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Carl's ex, Adam Mejia. There had been a year of harassing messages, escalating in severity, all from spoofed phone numbers.

1:30 You'll have hell to pay. Your new boyfriend should know the truth about what you did. Why is it okay for you to just move on? All I can wait for is the shitstorm that is about to repeat. Should I show Andrew the proof of the shit I dug up?

1:42 Good luck with school board.

1:44 Got Venmo?

1:45 Not like anyone has access to all your information. That'd be horrible.

1:53 The day after Detective George arrested Adam Mejia, she got a report back from the spoofing company. The results shocked her. Every single message linked back to one phone number. And it wasn't Adam's.

2:08 I had been a pawn in Paul Augustine's game. He had set up Adam Mejia to take the fall for him.

2:18 When Detective George learned the truth, she rushed to release Adam Mejia from custody.

2:24 I started making phone calls. I called the district attorney's office. And I said, hey, we got the wrong guy. And I said, I am 100% sure you need to release him right now.

2:33 Then she set out to question the real perpetrator. She and her partner, Nick Morrow, drove to Sam's Club. That's where Paul Augustine worked. A manager offered them an office where they could speak with Paul privately, off the sales floor. The detectives didn't tell Paul they were coming. He seemed quite surprised to see them.

2:54 Mind if we sit with you?

2:55 Cool.

2:59 As far as Paul knew, he'd gotten away with it. Adam had been arrested, just as he'd planned. Instead of confronting Paul with the new information they'd found, detectives decided to engage in a bit of theater. For a lot of this episode, we'll be playing police body cam audio. Some of the names have been redacted, as you'll hear.

3:21 The detectives explained to Paul that they had come to tie up a few loose ends. They wanted to gather some outstanding evidence for their case against Adam. And by the way, you'll hear some background music playing in the store.

3:35 Do you have any messages on your phone still?

3:37 Unfortunately, I deleted them. Do you have any calls or anything like that? Well, so what I've done, I've sent them all to.

3:44 Okay.

3:45 So I, unfortunately, no, I haven't saved everything because he's been the one, he's kind of taken over.

3:50 Do you have even like a one.

3:59 It was a game of pretend, for both the detectives and for Paul. So Paul shifted the subject. He wanted to know why the authorities had shown up to his workplace unannounced.

4:11 I was just uncomfortable because I was like, you know, it makes me like look bad at work.

4:15 Oh, no. We told him you're not in trouble or anything. We'll be good. Yeah, you're a good dad.

4:19 I always like assume, like I think when you see police, like you're just like, oh my.

4:22 God, what happened?

4:23 I even get nervous if I get pulled over. So I am a cop, so I get it.

4:28 Yeah.

4:29 Detectives put Paul at ease. But of course, Paul had every reason to be nervous. The cops knew exactly who they were talking to and they wanted to keep him talking. Paul brought up Adam, asking how much trouble he was in, if he was facing felony charges.

4:47 And it's actually a felony.

4:48 Stopping is automatically a felony in Wisconsin.

4:50 Oh, well, good. Yeah. I'm not complaining.

4:54 Detective George redirected the conversation. She wanted to know how was Paul connected to Carl and the harassment.

5:01 Like, how did.

5:02 You get drawn into this?

5:03 Are you really close to him?

5:05 Detective Morrow started pressing Paul a little bit further. So you guys are best friends, right? Are you guys like really close best friends then, I'm assuming?

5:13 Yeah.

5:13 So you guys share everything and hang out all the time and all that? Of course, yeah, super often.

5:17 I've seen him.

5:35 Probably over the weekend, you know, just like for the Packer game or something. Right.

5:39 Sounds like Paul has been pretty traumatized by these and scared.

5:43 Me too. Yeah. Yeah.

5:44 I can imagine that messages are pretty scary.

5:46 Paul did his best to regain control and turn the focus back to Adam.

5:51 Now that he's been arrested, have you guys even searched his phone?

5:55 We're working on that. So no one else uses your phone where they could have gone in and used your information?

6:00 No.

6:01 Have you ever, like, lost your phone? Or, I guess, do you always have your phone with you?

6:05 I've lost it before, yes.

6:07 And how long was your phone lost for?

6:09 When I say lost, I mean, like, misplaced.

6:10 Didn't know where it was.

6:11 Yeah, for, like, maybe, what, an hour or two? Oh, right.

6:14 We've been asking everybody this. Have you ever downloaded, like, any type of spoofing apps or anything like that?

6:20 We typed it out, one, just to see, like, just because we were curious what * * * * was doing. But, like, I mean, I just deleted it right away.

6:28 Do you remember what the name of that was?

6:30 To be honest, no.

6:31 So I wrote search warrants to a couple of different spoof companies.

6:34 Okay.

6:35 And one of the apps showed that you had an account.

6:38 Okay.

6:38 Do you remember that?

6:39 Well, like I said, we did download one just to, like, test it out because I've been leery about, you know, if, like, my phone has been hacked. So unless he was able to download another one that I'm unaware of, yeah, I don't have much for you.

6:53 Okay.

6:55 So the issue is that some of these messages that are being sent We're coming from your phone.

7:03 Well, that's weird.

7:04 Okay. I'm unaware of that. I mean, what am I supposed to say?

7:10 Yeah, that's what we're trying to figure out.

7:12 Detective George asked Paul if he'd be willing to sign a form allowing them to do a forensic download of his phone.

7:19 Do I have to.

7:20 Agree to that?

7:20 You don't have to, no.

7:21 It would just make it a lot easier.

7:24 I don't really feel comfortable with that. This is really intense. And if he actually did have the ability to... Paul was clearly uncomfortable. The detectives told him they needed to search his phone. They said it could help in the case against Adam. It would help us out in the long run, too, especially with charging him.

7:42 Further with everything.

7:44 It would.

7:45 Okay.

8:00 If Paul didn't have anything to hide, giving over his phone shouldn't be a problem.

8:06 Can I think it over before I sign something?

8:08 We'll just need an answer probably by the end of our conversation today.

8:13 If I sign that, and then, so it would actually be good if you did find something, because then worst case, like if I don't sign that, would he not even get in trouble?

8:22 Or I don't really know.

8:26 It's legal for detectives to lie to suspects. And that's what Detective Morrow did. He told Paul that yes, if he consented to the search of his phone, that evidence could help keep Adam in prison.

8:39 It'll be just easier for the judge to be like, yeah, this is concrete.

8:42 He's staying. But Paul still didn't want to give up his phone. He reminded detectives about other evidence they already had against Adam.

8:53 He broke the no contact order, from what I remember. And then You even heard his voice on the fake report that he made about the thing with beating.

9:03 Up the dogs or whatever.

9:04 Yeah, I heard it.

9:05 So, like, isn't that alone, you know, regardless of extra things, enough to charge him with whatever?

9:13 If he's got a good lawyer, you never know. Would I be able to see one more thing on your phone?

9:19 What do you need?

9:19 Just your IP address.

9:22 Yeah, I just don't feel comfortable, like, giving out really any more info. And... Please don't take it personal. I know you guys are doing your job. I just, it's more that, like, I wish I could have come to you, really, like, caught me off guard, and I don't know. So, like, I just don't really want to give out any more info.

9:42 When it was clear Paul wasn't going to cooperate, detectives gave up the act. Detective George looked him straight in the eye, and for the first time, told him why they were really there.

9:55 So we are going to be seizing this phone's evidence.

9:57 Okay what do you mean by that we are we are seizing it and taking it with us as evidence so i can't have my device.

10:04 No we are going to be writing a search warrant for it okay because we know.

10:09 What's going on in terms of why are you so nervous and what's on that phone that you think we know about that you don't want us knowing about What do you mean? You know what I mean, dude. I don't mean to be rude, but we just told you that your phone number is being associated with a spoof thing, and it's a little bit more than just one time doing it.

10:32 Detective Morrow was getting frustrated. He told us he'd come there half expecting Paul to confess.

10:40 When you first meet Paul, that was my first time seeing him. I'm like, there's no way this guy isn't going to crack. He looks like someone that You tell him we got everything, he's going to be like, ah, shit, I'm caught. But that just wasn't the case. And I was actually kind of pissed off that I didn't get consent that day.

10:58 Despite Paul's protests, detectives took his phone into evidence.

11:02 Before we leave, we're going to give you one last opportunity to tell us anything you want to tell us.

11:08 I mean, like, so you're going to look through, regardless of whether or not something's been deleted or not, Adam's name is redacted, but.

11:16 What Paul wanted to know was, why did you even.

11:19 Arrest Adam if you think it's me? That's when Detective George finally told Paul the news that Adam had been released.

11:45 Oh, I didn't realize.

11:46 Okay.

11:48 Wow.

11:51 For a year, Paul had been the puppet master. He'd manipulated Carl, Drew, Adam. He'd even manipulated investigators. But now, he was no longer pulling the strings. Detective Morrow gave Paul one last opportunity to give consent for his phone to be searched without a warrant. What's the difference even?

12:16 Then, for once, Paul said something that.

12:20 Was the complete truth.

12:20 And that's exactly what he did.

12:54 On the morning of January 19th, while detectives were questioning Paul at his job, Carl got a call. The Kenosha Sheriff's Department wanted to see him and his boyfriend, Drew. It's delicate work telling a victim of a crime that their theory of the case is wrong and that the real perpetrator is their closest friend. That would need to be an in-person conversation. When Carl and Drew got to the station, Deputy Roars greeted them.

13:23 Essentially, we just got to go over a couple of things because it's the last process.

13:29 We just need to talk to you separately.

13:30 We'll talk with Andrew first.

13:32 What was the point in bringing in Carl and Drew for an interview and then separating them?

13:39 That's standard course in any investigation. People, whether they know it or not, kind of feed off of each other. But it's also just trying to make sure that all of our bases are covered and trying to connect the dots of like, did one of them possibly know about this?

13:59 The sheriff's department had already arrested the wrong guy, and they weren't about to make the same mistake twice. Before they could arrest Paul and say that he was the sole mastermind, they had to rule out all other possibilities.

14:13 Hopefully it shouldn't take too incredibly long.

14:15 Is that what they needed Paul for, too? Paul's was separate.

14:19 Yeah.

14:20 And Andrew will come.

14:21 Right in here.

14:23 Deputy Roars walked Drew down a hallway. Carl was led to a small lounge and asked to wait. But as the minutes ticked by, he grew anxious. What was taking so long?

14:35 It was probably for about a good half hour I was by myself, and I'm like, okay, so what's really happening? And then eventually the door opens up. Drew walks in. We switch places, and Drew has a look on his face. He's very red. That is not a face I've seen on him before, and I thought, oh, my God, something bad is happening.

15:00 Oh.

15:04 Carl followed Deputy Roars to a conference room with gray walls and a small oval table. Another detective was there to assist. Immediately, Deputy Roars dropped the act.

15:17 So, I'm going to start off. A little bit of false pretense is why we brought you guys over here.

15:22 Okay.

15:23 I talked to you about how we went up. We served the search warrant.

15:26 He was referring to the search warrant of Adam's home. Despite going through Adam's electronics... they couldn't find anything to prove he was behind the harassment. The deputy also brought up Adam's interrogation and how firm Adam was in his innocence.

15:43 He was extremely cooperative. Extremely cooperative. He let us go through his phone. He let us go through his computer. We took both of those things. I mean, we've scoured everything. Last night, Detective George got one of her search warrants back from the spoofing company's After reading these messages, they sound like they come from somebody who intimately knows your life.

16:06 Yeah.

16:06 Can you think of anybody who would know this much detail that probably isn't Adam?

16:14 I'm really curious. Why not just tell Carl straight up it was Paul?

16:19 Just human nature, we only see what we want to see. They believe that Paul was their friend. And especially with Paul spamming himself so that he could look like a victim too, I don't think that they could comprehend how it could have been Paul. So I think we were trying to get them to get to that conclusion themselves.

16:40 For nearly a year, Carl had clung to the fact that Adam was the perpetrator. He'd spent months convincing authorities of the same. Authorities couldn't just come right out and tell Carl he'd been wrong and that the real perpetrator was his best friend of all people. He'd never believed them.

17:00 Can you think of anybody who would have this intimate detail that would know this stuff?

17:06 Carl tried to think. It couldn't be his mom or his sister. It couldn't be Drew. And in his mind, it couldn't be Paul either.

17:16 He does not have a malicious bone in his body and he's not tech savvy at all. There is nothing that had gone on in the friendship, the course of my friendship that I have had with Paul. Like there would be any sort of motive that he is trying to break up me and Drew or he's trying to get some sort of revenge on me.

17:38 Carl reminded detectives why Adam was the only logical perpetrator, because the harassing texts he received referenced very specific moments from their relationship.

17:50 The text messages that I had received were all based on my relationship with him. Stuff about like a visit to White Castle when we were dating.

17:58 There were so many more examples. Details only Adam would know. The guilt Carl felt for not calling an Uber the night of Adam's DUI. The Valentine's Day card Adam sent from prison. The baseball cap Adam took when they broke up.

18:14 Like I didn't tell it to anybody else.

18:16 Only, Carl had told someone else. He just didn't remember. That's how much he trusted Paul, how enmeshed Paul was in his life. Detectives realized Carl wasn't going to come to this conclusion on his own, so they had to ask him directly. Had he ever noticed Paul Augustine acting strangely? Carl was taken aback. He racked his brain. As he replayed the last year in his memory, one or two moments with Paul stood out Like how Paul handled the text he was getting.

18:54 He was getting a death threat.

18:57 Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. And if you're stupid and show him this message, it just might be you.

19:06 I'm sitting here talking on the phone with him for 45 minutes, and I'm like, dude, you have to file a police report. You are getting a death threat from this text message. But instead, he's crying to me about how it makes him feel and how he just wanted to make sure that we all feel safe and supported.

19:21 Were there any other instances like that?

19:24 There was another time where the three of us had met with you to sign off on those statements.

19:31 These were incident reports filed in the early days of the harassment.

19:36 And I was like, you need to sign this, you know, because if you don't sign this, I'm afraid that this won't lend as much credibility to what's like this ongoing investigation.

19:47 But Paul resisted. He didn't feel comfortable. comfortable getting involved with the cops.

19:53 It was just a little frustrating, though, because it felt like, you know, we had come this far. You know, an investigation was happening. Sign the paperwork, get the thing going. And he was kind of dragging his feet.

20:05 Still, Carl couldn't see Paul as being the perpetrator here.

20:10 I've known him for 10 years. I'm pretty good at reading him. Like, I know when, like, he's BSing.

20:16 Carl would have to see the evidence himself to believe it. The deputy took a deep breath and slid a piece of paper across the table to Carl. It was the report from the spoofing company.

20:29 So this company, it's called Spoof Cards. And it's like, it's an app that you can get on your phone.

20:35 Yeah.

20:35 And so basically you have to put in a phone number to verify you. And the phone number has to, it has to be a legitimate phone number.

20:44 Yeah.

20:44 Would it surprise you to know that those are registered?

20:49 The redacted name was Paul's. Would Carl be surprised to know that the spoofing app could be traced back to Paul?

20:56 Yeah.

20:57 Yeah, absolutely, 100%.

21:00 The deputies pointed at the piece of paper in front of Carl. All the spoof texts and calls.

21:08 Sent.

21:08 Sent.

21:09 All of those.

21:09 Every single one of these.

21:12 Every text. Every spoof call. Every threat. The tow trucks. The extortion. The nude photos. The police rushing to his home. It was all tied to one person. Paul Augustine. Hearing the news, Carl just stared at the cops, and he bit his lip, saying nothing. I asked Carl to take me back to that moment.

21:40 I'm sitting there in the room like completely dumbfounded. My stomach hit the floor. Paul did it. He used the information he knew about my relationship with Adam and used all of that against me. I mean, it was like... Just the weight. Everything was crashing down.

22:04 Carl left the station, withdrew at his side. The two of them walked through the parking lot in a daze.

22:12 It didn't really hit me until we got to our cars. We both gave each other a hug and we were just like, oh my God, I can't believe this.

22:22 Carl drove home feeling numb. That's when he got a notification, a message from Paul. Detectives had just stopped in to question Paul at work, and they'd taken his phone into evidence.

22:34 He messaged me on Facebook and was like, I'm just so shocked by everything that's happening right now, and I can't believe all these things that I'm being accused of, but I just want you to know that I'm not a stalker, and I never have been or I ever will be, and that's just not me.

22:53 Carl ignored the message. He was in shock. trying to process everything he'd just learned, the concrete evidence he'd seen, tying his best friend to the crimes. But Paul was desperate to get a hold of him, to convince Carl this was all just one big misunderstanding. In Paul's frenzied attempt to reach him, Paul enlisted the one person who would always support him, his mother. We don't know what Paul told her about the police investigation. But based on the voicemail she left Carl, it probably wasn't the truth.

23:31 I will not contact you any further after leaving this message. I am with Paul. He is completely traumatized. He was interrogated by Kenosha Police Department this morning. They seized his phone and are accusing him of being a part of your harassment. We are in a world of panic. And this belief that this has come to this now, where Paul is being accused of this stuff. I'm looking for clarity.

23:59 Paul's looking for clarity. What is going on?

24:25 Paul denied any involvement in harassing and tormenting Carl. But after seizing his phone, detectives had access to Paul's search history. Paul's Google searches read like a blueprint for the last year of chaos. Here are just some of his searches read by a voice actor.

24:44 How can I send a text message and make it look like it came from someone else's phone number? Towing services that don't require you to be there. How to get revenge on someone without them knowing online. Ways you can fuck with someone without police. What are the chances of being caught spoofing?

25:04 Then there were the searches that targeted Drew. Paul conducted numerous searches for Quick Trip, the convenience store where Drew worked. He also searched... What will get you fired from Quick Trip? You may recall, someone called the manager at the Quick Trip and complained that Drew had been behaving inappropriately with a minor, which wasn't true. Paul's search history connected the dots.

25:30 How would someone frame someone for harassing a minor? How to get minors' names? A list of kids at Bradford High School.

25:39 There were also clues into how Paul tried to frame Adam.

25:43 Best ways to get someone arrested. How to set someone up to go to jail.

25:48 How to set someone up for a crime. With the forensic phone evidence and the spoofing app report, Detectives were finally ready to take action. What happened next was captured on police body cams. Some of the names have been redacted. On January 23, 2024, just before 5 p.m., Detectives George and Morrow knocked on Paul's door with a team of other officers. No one answered, so Detective George knocked a little harder. The door swung open, but no one had answered it. It hadn't been fully closed. Sheriff's apartment!

26:34 Okay, okay, I'm back. I was right there.

26:38 Okay, sorry, your door bounced open when I was knocking on it.

26:40 I'm so sorry.

26:41 That's okay.

26:41 Oh my God, can I put clothes on?

26:44 You got shorts on?

26:45 I'm late, I don't have clothes.

26:47 Paul called down from the top of the stairs. He was, in fact, only wearing pants, no shirt.

26:54 Hi.

26:55 Hi.

26:55 Hi, I'm sorry.

26:56 That's okay.

26:57 You scared me.

26:58 Mind if I step in? I'm scared.

27:00 What's going on?

27:01 Mind if I step in?

27:02 I mean, kind of, yeah.

27:05 Can you come on down and talk to me?

27:06 Can I just put clothes on?

27:08 Oh, you're fine.

27:08 I don't mind.

27:10 I don't have any clothes.

27:10 I don't mind. You can step down.

27:12 No, but I don't want to leave without clothes.

27:14 You're not going anywhere.

27:15 I'm scared.

27:16 Just go inside. You're safe. You're not going to hurt me, are you? No, absolutely not. You know me.

27:20 I know you.

27:21 I'm just scared.

27:22 I've never.

27:22 Why are you scared, Paul?

27:24 Okay, because cops are... I've never had this happen before.

27:28 Take a breath. You're okay.

27:29 Can I at least put a shirt on?

27:31 I gotta come up there with you.

27:32 All right. And I want to let my mom know.

27:36 Well, what's going on?

27:37 I'm really, really scared.

27:39 He was freaking out. And he had a really good way of acting scared. He's a victim. This is all BS. But it was crocodile tears.

27:49 After Detective Morrow escorted Paul through the process of getting a shirt on, The two of them came back downstairs and sat down at the kitchen table with Detective George.

28:00 Okay, so we just wanted to talk about, we wanted to see if you've had a chance to kind of think of anything.

28:05 If anything else is.

28:06 In regards to the whole.

28:07 The whole incident.

28:08 Well, I mean, that's why I've been in contact with the lawyer and such, but like what was the more specific.

28:15 If.

28:15 You've recalled anything.

28:18 About the situation?

28:19 Yeah, anything you think might be important.

28:22 I mean, it's just been emotional. It's been hard because I don't consider myself, I mean, and I know not even do I not consider myself, but I know that I'm not the one who initiated all of this, you know, that started any of this harassment, and then you guys showed up at my work, caught me off guard. I mean, I was offended by the fact that you guys kind of came at me in sort of an accusatory type of way.

28:49 So you remember when I talked to you last time, I explained to you that, number one, we don't think you're a bad person. I know you're not a bad person. I know that this just kind of got out of control. I don't think that you meant to truly hurt anybody or to truly get anyone in trouble.

29:04 No.

29:04 Okay?

29:04 I think maybe you just got a little bit carried away. Now that I've gone through your phone, I want to hear your.

29:13 Side of it. I just, and I'm being totally respectful, you guys. Without a lawyer, like, I just, I do not feel comfortable going into the details of that, and I don't say that to be offensive. I don't say that to be rude to any of you guys. I hope you don't take it that way.

29:28 I don't at all.

29:28 I don't, I just don't feel comfortable at, like, being interrogated about it. I mean, even for the phone, I, like, I said I didn't consent right away to a search of the phone, you know. I said, like, you guys would have to get a warrant in order to do so from what i recall.

29:42 Which i did which we did okay and i found everything you've been doing i don't know what to say okay is there anything that you would like me to know just from your side of.

29:55 Things Like I said, I don't want to comment on that stuff. I don't.

30:03 All right, so take a deep breath.

30:06 Stand up.

30:07 You're under arrest.

30:08 Where are your shoes?

30:10 Can I grab them?

30:12 Yeah, we'll get them for you.

30:13 You're not going to fight?

30:14 No, of course not.

30:15 I'm just scared.

30:16 Take a deep breath.

30:17 I don't want to be hurt.

30:17 You are not going to be hurt.

30:19 Will I be able to eventually call my mom?

30:21 Absolutely.

30:21 Yeah, it's just right now you can't call her off anything but a jail phone.

30:24 Do you know how it works in terms of bail?

30:29 You're not going to have a bail right now.

30:31 It's felony offenses.

30:33 So you're going to see a judge tomorrow or the next day at about 1 o'clock, and then he will set some sort of bail for you.

30:41 So we'll explain everything a little bit further to you in the car. I'm going to have you face away, step on your feet.

30:44 I thought that's usually how it works. I thought that someone can bail you out.

30:48 That one is a felony.

30:49 Ever or not in Kenosha?

30:52 Yeah.

30:55 While Detective George stayed with Paul in the house, Morrow went outside. Paul's mother, Joan, had just arrived.

31:02 I'm Detective Morrow with the Kenosha County Sheriff's Department.

31:05 My partner, Detective George, and a couple other officers are inside right now, okay?

31:09 Can I go in?

31:10 Not right now. He's going to be coming out.

31:12 He is in custody with us.

31:14 Okay. He's going to have quite a bit of charges. Just stay right here with me real quick. He'll be able to call you when he gets down to our jail, okay?

31:24 Will he be able to be bonded out?

31:25 Not tonight.

31:26 Mom, they said they.

31:27 Can't bail me out.

31:29 Just then, Paul came out of the house in handcuffs with a team of cops all around him.

31:36 Can I give him a hug?

31:37 George, George, are you okay if she gives him a hug real quick?

31:41 Paul's mom briefly wrapped her arms around Paul's shoulders. Then the police led him away.

31:47 Am I ever going to get bailed out?

31:51 I'm going to do every single thing I can.

31:53 I thought I said you bailed out.

31:55 Just breathe, breathe, breathe, honey. My reflection on his behavior during the arrest is that he wasn't scared of law enforcement. He was scared of facing the consequences of what he had done.

32:12 Everything with him was calculated to a T. So I'm sure he had it in the back of his mind, if I'm caught, this is how I'm going to act. And he did it well. He's very good at the manipulation and putting on some sort of show to make him the victim.

32:30 Detectives calmly placed Paul in the back seat. They buckled his seatbelt and warmed up the car while they spoke with Paul's mom.

32:38 I kind of comforted her, explained that he's going to be safe. Here's where he's going. Here's what's happening.

32:43 I'm sorry.

32:48 I feel like I died.

32:50 I feel like I died.

32:52 I feel like I'm dead, along with him.

32:57 The mom was so hell-bent that there's no way He could have done this. No way in hell he.

33:03 Would do this.

33:06 Afterwards, everyone was left with the same question. Why? Why did Paul do this to his best friend? Detectives had a theory about Paul's motive. They asked him about it back when they questioned him at work.

33:22 Why would you do this?

33:24 I mean, why are you accusing me of?

33:26 Are you in love with?

33:27 Do you love him?

33:29 I mean, well, as a friend, yes. Yeah.

33:31 Do you have any feelings towards him in any other way?

33:35 Not, I mean, at one point, maybe. Like, we've both had feelings for each other a little bit, but, I mean, like I told you earlier, like, never progressed into anything.

33:43 Do you wish it ever did?

33:45 Not, especially with all this drama.

33:48 No, not.

33:48 Well, what about, like, before this drama?

33:51 At one point, maybe, but no, not anymore. Not at this time.

33:56 In so many cases, the question of motive... goes unanswered. But that wouldn't be true in Paul's case because there was one more piece of evidence that would soon come to light.

34:08 Just one thing. And I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me.

34:16 A four-hour recording where Paul explained what he did and why he did it.

34:22 I was just like, I'll be damned if they're going to be happy.

34:27 It was all captured on camera And Paul had no idea. I'm not pleading guilty.

34:35 That's for fucking sure.

34:38 That's next time on Betrayal. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.Substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way.

35:16 A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunnick, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden.

35:35 Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcahy. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richman and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt DelVecchio, with additional editing by Dean Welsh. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

36:19 Thank you.