Relentless | EP 6 | The Confidante

0:01 Word travels fast within the Wisconsin gay community. Most people are connected by a few degrees of separation. Paul's arrest was big news.

0:12 It was obviously very juicy gossip and people were talking about it because, first of all, it's a gay community. We're going to talk about stuff like that. And it is just such a crazy, bonker story.

0:25 That's Matt Rolsey. He and Paul were mutuals. They would see each other at bars and like each other's Facebook posts. But they weren't particularly close. So when someone texted Matt a picture of Paul's mugshot, he was a little curious.

0:41 I probably reached out to him shortly after I found out. I did want to learn more about it.

0:49 Matt messaged Paul asking what was going on. He didn't know what to expect or if Paul could even reply. As far as he knew, Paul might still be in jail. To Matt's surprise, Paul responded. You see, after Paul's arrest, he got out of jail on $ 5, 000 bond. Now, a month later, Paul was out in the world awaiting trial.

1:17 But he wasn't exactly Mr.

1:18 Popular.

1:19 So when Matt invited Paul over to his house, Paul gladly accepted.

1:24 I was super shocked when he actually came over and just immediately started telling me everything.

1:32 Matt didn't know it at the time, but what Paul was about to tell him would change the course of this entire case.

1:41 The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two.

1:51 It just doesn't, you didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make.

2:08 I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season 6. Episode 6, Relentless. Matt lives on a quiet street in Milwaukee with his husband and their dogs. Instead of asking Paul out for drinks.

2:26 I just asked him to come over.

2:29 By this point, Paul was pretty much blacklisted. Everyone knew what he'd done, and no one was giving him the time of day. Except for Matt. So it made sense that Paul wanted to talk. The two of them set a date for a random Wednesday in February. Paul made himself at home. He kicked off his shoes and took off his bomber jacket. Matt's two French bulldogs ran up and started playing with Paul. They opened the bottle Paul brought.

3:12 Matt already had chips and salsa out on the kitchen island. It was all very casual. Paul and Matt just stood around in the kitchen. Matt's husband, Dave, was there too to say hello. They were all sipping drinks, petting the dogs. And then, Paul cut to the chase.

3:30 Just one thing.

3:31 And I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me.

3:39 I don't even know where my phone is.

3:41 Good.

3:42 I usually have my Apple Watch on, but I don't know where that is.

3:46 Positive?

3:47 It's upstairs. I do know where it is. It is upstairs. And my phone is in my office.

3:53 This was true. Matt didn't have any of his devices on him. But what he did have were home security cameras in every room.

4:02 Our security cameras, they're very visible. But I had no reason to think that he would tell me anything at all.

4:10 He'd half expected Paul to not want to talk about his case. But within minutes of getting to Matt's house, Paul started talking.

4:19 Long story short, I, fine, yeah, I made some mistakes.

4:24 I did some things I shouldn't have done that were mean and manipulative, whatever you want to call it. And it's not that I'm like, I'm not proud of it. It's just like, you know, I kind of freaked out a little. And, you know, I wasn't going to say that over Messenger because there's a narrative that I have to abide by.

4:49 Over anything that's.

4:51 Typed, okay?

4:51 Because I'm not pleading guilty. That's for fucking sure.

4:56 Matt could not believe what he was hearing.

4:59 Once he started spilling the beans, I was shocked.

5:03 He could feel the presence of the camera in the corner of the room. Clearly, Paul didn't notice it.

5:10 I didn't want him to realize what I was thinking, which was like, oh my God, this is major bullshit. He doesn't realize what he's doing right now.

5:21 Matt's husband excused himself, and Matt and Paul decided to settle in. They took their snacks and wine into the living room, and they sat down on the couch. Paul faced Matt, unaware of the camera filming behind him.

5:36 Hey, can I.

5:37 Get it dark in here?

5:39 I'll light some lights off. That's too dark. No, that's perfect.

5:43 Do you want me to just tell you the whole story? The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode.

5:57 On something like that, one of the two.

5:58 It just doesn't, you didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make a podcast episode.

6:03 Maybe I would have if I would have got away with all this.

6:06 Seriously?

6:06 Well, no, not literally.

6:08 Because that's like extra great.

6:12 No, I wouldn't kill anyone.

6:13 In the moment, matches played along.

6:16 The mindset I was in was just like, if he's going to tell me anything, I'm going to have to make him comfortable.

6:22 But the whole night, Matt was thinking about the security camera in the corner of the room. Paul took Matt back to the very beginning.

6:29 Long story short, I've known Carl since.

6:36 I was 20.

6:36 When I met Carl, he was. Super overweight.

6:42 That was before he got gastric sleeve surgery in 2020.

6:46 He got gastric sleeve surgery? He did.

6:49 He did a whole transformation.

6:51 There was a reason Paul brought up Carl's weight. It was why he'd rejected Carl when they first met.

6:56 We were good friends and he liked me, but I wasn't into him like that at the time.

7:03 In Paul's mind, Carl was strictly friend-zoned. That was until 10 years later when Carl dropped 150 pounds. This was right around the time Paul's boyfriend Corey died and Carl broke up with Adam. The two of them were there for each other. And suddenly, Paul started to feel attracted to Carl. In the summer of 2022, they started hooking up.

7:27 Before long, Paul wanted more.

7:30 I was really like attracted to him. Like we started fooling around, went to a couple of Cubs games, took a lot of pictures. And then fast forward October, I told him, Hey, I have feelings for you. What do you think about taking it to the next level? Like, are you interested in that? What are you looking for?

7:48 Whatever.

7:49 By this point, Carl didn't want to date Paul. He told him he wanted to stay friends.

7:56 Obviously, I was like sad to hear that. But at the same time, I was like, well, OK, I can't hate you.

8:01 It sounds like so far he's been very upfront.

8:04 He was.

8:05 No, and he didn't do anything wrong.

8:07 Paul was disappointed, but wasn't angry. He said he understood. Then, about a month later, something changed.

8:16 November 9th of 2022. I remember the date.

8:21 I get this call from him, and he's like, yeah, like, I didn't want to, like, make you feel bad or anything, but, like, I need to get this conversation over with, but, like, I made it official with.

8:34 This other person.

8:36 That person was Drew.

8:38 I'm really sorry, but You're still, like, my best friend, you know? And then I just was crying.

8:44 Oh, yeah, that's true. I mean, when you have a crush on somebody, it is, like, the worst.

8:49 I hate it.

8:50 Yeah, no.

8:51 It's not easy for anyone.

8:54 The thing was, the mistake I made, well, serious, but, like, I didn't give myself any kind of space or deal with it in a healthy way.

9:04 Even though Carl didn't want to date, he was still invested in his friendship with Paul. which made Paul feel like maybe he still had a chance.

9:13 So I was like, I'm going to sabotage this like.

9:16 You would never believe.

9:18 Phase one of his plan was keeping Carl busy, so he didn't have as much time to see Drew.

9:23 I would, like, book up his calendar. And we did a lot of things together throughout November.

9:29 December, whatever.

9:31 But as the months passed, Carl and Drew kept getting closer.

9:34 I was just so.

9:37 irritated. And I was like, well, okay, I'm going to like do everything I can to get in the way.

9:43 That's when Paul initiated phase two. This plan involved Carl's ex-boyfriend, Adam.

9:51 I knew that Adam was in jail. He was nervous for Adam to get out of jail in a couple months. So this is all going on November, December, 2022. And I knew, oh, it's only about three more months before Adam gets out of jail. Oh, he has a crazy ex-boyfriend. He's in the middle of developing a new relationship.

10:09 Is he crazy or is he just a mess?

10:11 Oh, both a little bit. And I was like, well, okay, this is interesting.

10:16 I might as well exploit the fact that That he's getting out of jail in a couple months and figure out a way to derail this new relationship that Carl's in. And it'll be easy to, because I have like a kind of a crazy memory where I remembered certain like intimate details of their relationship. I knew certain things to say over like text and things like that. And I just, like, sent some messages where he totally thought Adam was trying to mess with the current relationship.

10:52 He mentioned things like the Valentine's Day card Adam sent Carl from jail, the story about Carl and Adam going to White Castle together, or even the infamous baseball hat. These were all things Carl told Paul in the months after his breakup. But the details were so small, Carl had forgotten he'd shared them. He could have never guessed...

11:14 that they would become Paul's ammunition.

11:16 My whole goal was I wanted to drive the new guy, like, so crazy. But meanwhile, I still hung out with them a lot. And, like, I acted totally nice, like, sociopathically.

11:28 That does sound extra fucked up. It was.

11:31 Yes. But I was really good at it. I was like, oh, like, you're so sweet. Like, you're so much nicer than, like, Adam. And I even hung out with Drew when I won.

11:39 Plenty of times. And I, like, could completely, like, just turn it off and put on the act.

11:44 And then I started getting to a point where I'd smooth their number, both of their numbers.

11:49 And I would call, like, don't.

11:53 You're going to judge me.

11:54 I don't, whatever.

11:55 I don't care.

11:56 But like, I would call tow trucks, plumbers, locksmiths.

12:00 I even called the limo service, but then I called an emergency vet. So a pet ambulance showed up one night and then a pet ambulance, whatever you want to call it. I've never heard.

12:11 Even heard of a doggy ambulance? How did you get a doggy ambulance?

12:15 I just told them to like, get them to come out or whatever, but that was just one call.

12:19 Okay. I tell you three dogs, they don't just come.

12:22 Let me just get more intense. So I want to tell you, so then I hired six people. Okay.

12:29 Yeah.

12:29 Okay.

12:30 Let's talk about that.

12:31 So this is really crazy. So I had a network.

12:35 Almost circle back to that.

12:37 I had a team of, a team of, of sick bitches. So I paid people to do numerous things over the course of the eight months.

12:49 I started the harassment pretty much right when Drew moved to Kenosha. It was six months into the relationship.

12:57 They wanted to lie to themselves and fucking say that they aren't moving too fast, even though they are.

13:05 Well, I could give some insight into that.

13:08 I have real rage. Sorry, I do.

13:12 I wouldn't, like, if I could have kept doing shit, I would have, like, put Visine in his fucking stir fry.

13:18 Wait, what does that do? Kills you. How did you know that?

13:23 I Googled all that.

13:25 Oh my god.

13:25 But, like, because I just want to fucking kill him.

13:31 You heard his tone of voice shift when he started to talk about how much he hated Drew. It is a window to actual, genuine hatred.

13:42 Yeah, I mean, he was pounding the couch in rage. In between bouts of laughing about it, the way he's talking about this stuff, I just felt like he was absolutely out of control.

14:15 Matt invited Paul over, curious what Paul might tell him. But as the night went on, it became clear the whole situation with Carl and Paul was so much darker than he'd ever imagined. Paul was obsessed, and there was only one thing getting between him and Carl. Carl's new boyfriend, Drew.

14:36 Why are you so mad at this? Because I just wanted Carl to myself.

14:41 Okay, but don't be mad at this guy.

14:43 I know, but he's so fucking ugly.

14:45 You don't have to like him.

14:47 No, not because he's ugly, but because of like Carl.

14:49 He's ugly and Carl has a fucking retarded decision.

14:52 So anyways, but I'll go on. So then I hired people.

14:57 Paul admitted he'd paid people to help him with the harassment. Remember that call to dispatch? The one where someone pretended to be Carl, saying Drew was hurting the dogs?

15:10 I was wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was like caught hitting my dog.

15:17 Paul had recruited someone to make that call. And the date of it was very intentional.

15:24 I had someone who I know has a drug problem. And I then owed them money on their anniversary, November 4th of 2023, when they had been dating for a year or whatever, because I was.

15:38 Like, I don't want them to have fun. I don't want them to have a good anniversary show. I was like, I want to ruin their day.

15:45 How do you know this guy?

15:48 Just people I've hooked up with over the years.

15:51 Okay. So I.

15:53 This is giving a class here.

15:55 As Paul continued with his story, he opened a fresh bag of chips.

16:00 So I called him and I'm like, can you make a false police report for me on a spoof number with a voice changer?

16:08 How much did you pay him for this?

16:12 50 bucks. Oh, that's so sad because he probably wanted the drugs, right? He wanted opiates.

16:16 But I'm like, say that this is Carl Bryan. My boyfriend, Andrew Condon, is choking my dogs and hitting.

16:22 My dogs and abusing them.

16:24 And I want to remove from the property.

16:27 This call became a smoking gun in the case against Adam because everyone thought it sounded just like him. Even Carl believed it was him. But the similarity between Adam's voice and the caller's voice, that was a total coincidence.

16:42 Also, what I lucked out with was the guy from Appleton that I told you about, the one that made the dogs report, has like the exact same voice as fucking Adam. On the police report or whatever, it sounded exactly the same as Adam's voice.

16:59 And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this.

17:04 Then.

17:05 Paul brought up an incident from September 2023 when someone called Drew's work and made fake child abuse allegations.

17:13 I had a co-worker and he was gay and he flirted with me.

17:19 But I hung out with him for the sole purpose of like this shit.

17:23 I had him come over, didn't even fool around with him, didn't do anything, didn't pay him.

17:28 I had him do a call to.

17:30 Carl's boyfriend, Drew, his work, because he works for QuickTruth in Kenosha. His location is right next to a high school. So I had him pose and, like, use a voice changer and pretend to be a parent. And I just, like, had him say, like, all this, like, crazy stuff. Like, I'm just worried because one of your employees here, you know, picks up my son after school and leaves in a red car and this is the license plate because I knew the license plate. So I had them do that and make a false claim.

18:00 This incident tested Carl and Drew's relationship. But as you know, Drew's stuck by Carl. They continued reporting incidents to the police and keeping a low profile. Paul was pissed.

18:14 I didn't like the fact that they were trying to, like, just be happy boyfriends and get back.

18:18 To their life.

18:19 I think that's the root of this whole situation.

18:21 Yeah, exactly.

18:22 But then I was just like, I'll be damned if they're going to, like, be happy.

18:26 The harassment wasn't breaking up Carl and Drew. So Paul decided to up the ante. This is when he started sending extortion messages. And eventually, messages that made it look like Carl was cheating on Drew. And by the way, in this next section, Paul refers to Drew only as Iowa, because that's where Drew's from.

18:47 I wanted to paint the picture to Iowa that Carl, the one I have a crush on.

18:53 Is cheating on with not only me, but other people too.

18:57 So what did that do with your relationship or friendship with.

19:00 Oh, it actually got better because Iowa was believing all this stuff that I was doing.

19:04 Wait, so how would that make your relationship with Carl better?

19:07 Well, because he needed a shoulder to cry on because, you know, Iowa.

19:11 But wouldn't he put it together that you fabricated.

19:14 No, because he was so brainwashed by that point that it was all Adam because of certain things that I did in the past and certain, like, connections.

19:23 That I made.

19:24 So, then, finally, where I fucked up... Okay, and I'll admit.

19:29 I was stupid. For the very first time in this whole story.

19:33 I paid one other person to make another report that Drew was unhinged and intoxicated and had like a knife. My boyfriend Andrew Condon has a knife. The police searched and like Drew was like naked in bed in the middle of the night.

19:50 He had to work early.

19:52 And like, I just got satisfaction out of the fact that they like came in and searched Drew and were like.

19:57 Drew, like we need to come out and search you.

20:00 And like, he was so mad and everything.

20:02 And I was just like, good, I'm ruining their night.

20:05 There was a reason Paul chose that particular moment to take things further.

20:09 I was mad that they had a good New Year's together. And I was just like, they don't deserve to be happy.

20:17 By this point, Matt and Paul had been talking for an hour. It was like all of this was just everyday gossip to Paul. He laid back on the couch and let one of the dogs curl up in his lap. He smiled and swirled his wine. Then Matt decided to steer the conversation a bit more.

20:34 So I feel.

20:36 Guilty saying this because I've never been to therapy. Are you in therapy?

20:40 Yeah.

20:41 Okay.

20:42 Do you have a good therapist?

20:43 Yeah. I mean, it's just like talking to you, you know, it's like talking to anyone. I can identify things about myself pretty well. It's just like, it feels too strong for you to be able to overcome.

20:56 Yeah.

20:57 And I have a disconnect where when I have like jealousy, I'm kind of sociopathic about it, where it's like, it just like any kind of moral compass or any kind of logic.

21:08 Just sort of.

21:08 Goes out the window where it's like, if it was legal to shove glass into like his boyfriend's eyes or something or paralyze him from the waist down, I would do it. And I would just be like, hey, Matt, let's get dinner. Let's go to Santino's, whatever you want. And maybe not that bad, but like you get the point.

21:27 On the inside, Matt was stunned, but he kept his cool. He knew that was the only way to keep Paul talking.

21:36 I understand it because I know you well and I don't know you super well, but I get that we're like that part of your brain which seems like if I'm going to be hurt, other people are going to be hurt. You're so right.

21:49 You explain that better than anyone. If someone pisses.

21:55 Me off on level one, I want to punish them on level six.

21:58 Your brain's not going to let that happen at all. If it was legal, I'd paralyze them.

22:05 Would you paralyze him before you put glass in his eyes?

22:09 I wouldn't kill him. The whole point of not killing.

22:12 Him is to be suffering.

22:16 Maybe say that out loud in a mirror.

22:20 And you'll be like, oh, man.

22:23 I have to say, you were masterful. It was a delicate dance that you were doing of keeping it casual, holding him to account when you're like, well, I don't feel like that's right.

22:33 Like, I'm never really exactly fake with him. That's what was confusing to me, too, about why he would even tell me, because I've never been particularly nice to him. But then he came in there, he was ready to tell me anyway. It's like he didn't comprehend the serious, serious shit he was in.

22:51 I did something wrong, I know.

22:54 Right, and I know that you know that on paper, right?

22:58 No, I know it emotionally, regardless of how I feel, okay?

23:02 I realized and I acknowledged that someone doesn't deserve to pay the price just because they rejected me.

23:09 I understand where that's hurtful.

23:11 Thing is, you wanted this guy and you were hurting.

23:14 And I was relentless because I couldn't accept the reality of his decision.

23:22 I mean, Paul, let's say you didn't get caught.

23:26 How long away was advising? That's what my mom said.

23:31 Okay, but like... So you told her.

23:34 Yeah.

23:35 But I knew I had to stop.

23:37 But what I would have done if I wouldn't have been caught, I would have figured out a different way to do this.

23:43 Yeah, a better way.

23:45 Maybe if the technology thing was over, I would have bought drugs or something and I would have like.

23:51 Crushed him up and put him in his.

23:52 Car or like done something evil. I would have taken it to every extent. Right, right.

23:59 Because I was relentless.

24:00 But did your mom know about any of that, like, before you got arrested?

24:02 Or did you just have to tell her the whole fucking thing?

24:07 Yeah.

24:10 In the middle of their conversation, as Paul was confessing to serious crimes, he paused to take out his phone. He held out a photo for Matt to see.

24:20 This is me and Carl at Michael's wedding.

24:24 It's a cute picture.

24:25 Then Paul pulled up a photo of Drew.

24:28 He's in the middle. Like, look at him. I still look better than he does. I mean... I'm not saying I'm perfect.

24:37 I'm not.

24:38 Regardless, why does it matter?

24:39 So let's just say this guy was ugly as shit. It doesn't matter what the reason is. You don't have to explain it.

24:45 He likes that guy.

24:46 Sorry.

24:47 I'm not blaming you. It's just, like, I don't know why you have this, like.

24:50 Oh, stop.

24:51 You have this, like, itch to do it.

24:54 Sorry.

24:55 You're charged with, like, felonies.

24:58 Like, you didn't hear me talking about how ugly this guy is.

25:01 Fine. Fine.

25:02 Fine.

25:04 It had now been several hours, and Matt was reaching a breaking point. He was finally pushing back on Paul. And Paul took notice.

25:14 You're making me feel worse because you're pointing out reality.

25:18 I made mistakes, and.

25:21 I get it, but this is like, you're like a yo-yo thing between, like, the anger that I can see that you can't.

25:28 Control, and then giving.

25:31 Me lip services, like, I understand this is.

25:33 All fucked up, but then... But I'm still not over the jealousy.

25:36 But then you, like, yo-yo back, being obsessive about, like, let me find pictures.

25:41 Yeah, because I can still feel both emotions at the same time.

25:45 Yeah, it's true.

25:46 Like, I believe you know it was wrong, but I also believe you don't care.

25:51 I don't.

25:52 Right.

25:54 Yeah, you want to know why I don't? I can see that. You want to know why I don't? because of the fact that it's not like I physically injured anyone. I psychologically bullied them.

26:03 But who really cares?

26:05 Because everything's so fucking great in his life.

26:08 Because everything's just so peachy keen in his life. It pisses me off that, oh, someone can just reject you, but, like, have things going well in their life and, like, be on a mentally good track and have a boyfriend that's mentally fucking healthy.

26:24 And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

26:26 It's like, I get really upset and I just get really, no, I'm not happy for you.

26:34 You don't have to be.

26:36 My stepdad said something that really resonated with me. He's like, are you sorry for what you did? Or are you sorry that you got caught? I'm sorry that I got caught.

26:48 I'm sorry for what I did. And I think you know that.

27:16 It was now after 10 p.m. Paul and Matt had been talking for nearly three hours. Matt remained on alert, perched on the edge of the couch, never taking his eyes off Paul. But Paul made himself comfortable. He was wrapped in a blanket, curled up with Matt's dog. Matt turned the conversation to Paul's legal case.

27:38 Let's break it down. The fact of the matter is you're charged with felonies.

27:42 Paul had been charged with three counts of felony stalking He also had a misdemeanor charge for making a false statement to police. Those charges meant he could face up to 11 years and three months in prison.

27:56 The goal is to get him either dropped down to misdemeanors or, worst case, if I'm charged with this stuff, that it be a probationary thing.

28:08 I'm sure you'll just get probation. Yeah, exactly. Really, honestly, probably what you need is probation. You know what I'm saying? I personally hope it's a long probation.

28:21 Thanks.

28:22 Paul, you clearly need it. Okay. Like, what else is going to stop you?

28:27 I mean, no, I'm listening.

28:29 And again, I'm sympathizing.

28:31 But I feel like you're looking down on me.

28:34 Well, I am not charged with three felonies.

28:36 Okay, but you don't have.

28:38 To, like.

28:38 I'm not looking, but.

28:40 And you.

28:41 Can tell me, from an outsider looking in, do you think it was horrible, what I did?

28:46 And that's fine if you do. I don't really care. But, like, do you think.

28:50 Let me answer it this way. If that happened to you, would you think it was horrible?

28:57 Yeah, I'd want to kill him.

28:58 You know? Yeah, I get it. You would think it's horrible. So why are you asking me if I would think it was horrible? I'm just asking.

29:05 Of course it's horrible. He's referring to something he mentioned earlier. The call to Drew's job. When he had someone make fake child abuse allegations to try to get Drew fired.

29:12 I still feel bad about, it. Like, to me, character-wise, like, I actually feel bad.

29:41 Why bad, though? Like, what makes you feel bad about that?

29:45 Because that's really fucked up, like, to try to get someone fired from their job.

29:50 Not the fact that you were trying to terrorize parents that, like, thought maybe their kids could be getting picked up.

29:57 I probably went to, like, soccer practice two days later and forgot about it.

30:01 So I don't really care.

30:02 I don't have kids.

30:04 But I can imagine.

30:05 I hate kids anyway.

30:08 What would you do if, like, I come over sometime and, like, I bring, like, a side dish and, like, wine and.

30:16 And then all of a sudden, like, I have, like, in my little, like, syringe, like.

30:20 You see, like, Vizine!

30:22 Well, we all know you're not gonna let us see this syringe. Which is also why I'll be pouring the drinks, and also any wine you bring over must be sealed fully.

30:39 Oh my god. Because you're fucking crazy. I mean.

30:45 As Paul spoke, he kept calmly petting one of Matt's dogs.

30:49 Matt, can I ever watch the dogs?

30:53 Mm-hmm.

30:54 I will put bison in you because you can't break my heart because you're a punk.

31:00 I mean, a dog could break your heart.

31:02 I don't want you to fall off the couch, honey. You know you're in good care.

31:08 Oh, yes.

31:10 He hugged the dog close and nuzzled his face. But suddenly... Something pulled his focus.

31:17 Oh man, where's my phone?

31:18 I don't know why. Is that going to be more evidence?

31:22 Evidence.

31:23 Yeah.

31:23 They probably got all they need. They probably got all they need to do before they talk to you.

31:28 You're so mean.

31:30 Oh my God.

31:32 I mean. You really think I'm like terrible. But I can tell you think I'm bad.

31:38 Paul.

31:39 I know you do.

31:41 Look at me when I say this.

31:42 Yes.

31:43 Paul.

31:44 Anyone would think all the shit you did wasn't good.

31:52 At least we're all alive here.

31:54 There was no Visine.

31:55 There was no.

31:57 And look, that's legitimately a positive. Yeah. I mean, we were a step away. Right.

32:06 If you didn't catch that, let me repeat it. Paul said they were a step away from Visine being involved.

32:13 Then.

32:13 He immediately brushed it off as a joke. I asked Matt about this moment. The way that he speaks about Visine, what do you make of that?

32:24 It was one of the things that night that made it a lot more serious for me. And like, I don't know if that's something he'd actually do, but he brings it up multiple times and then like laughed about it. That part of the conversation, it was definitely put me on a higher alert and made me feel like, oh, This could be even more serious than all the stuff he was already doing. I was, like, super scared.

32:49 At what point are you like, this person just needs to get out of my house?

32:54 For as scared as I was, I realized how valuable this could be for justice, and I was going to let him stay there for as long as he was willing to talk.

33:06 But around the four-hour mark, the night began to wind down.

33:09 Either way, Matt. Keep this conversation between us.

33:13 I mean, what am I going to say that people don't already think?

33:18 Well, no, but this is actually serious because, like, do you... Please do not. Keep this between us. Keep the things that I talk to about my whole case situation between us. Why is it, like, a thing that you have to, like, gossip about me?

33:33 Someone we know got arrested, and it is very juicy. Paul, if somebody you knew got arrested... You wouldn't just not talk about it.

33:44 Matt asked Paul if someone asked him what they talked about, what should he say? Paul was prepared.

33:51 I have a good answer.

33:53 But will you lie, though?

33:56 If this lie is believable.

33:58 Yeah, it is.

33:59 You've never met Russell.

34:02 Yeah, you did.

34:03 I don't remember. He's in that job. How is this Russell person involved in the lie?

34:10 Well, because he was one of the people I hired.

34:12 So you can say that Russell, because he's like into a lot of IT stuff, whatever, and without talking about any of the other stuff I told you or people I hired without talking about any other details.

34:25 Just say, according to Paul, Russell spoofed his IP address.

34:30 Wait, so am I like implicating someone?

34:34 I've already had someone else do that for me.

34:38 I don't want to.

34:39 Well, yeah, but you know what? No, but you're not implicating someone.

34:43 You said that.

34:45 Yeah, you're not doing that. You're not saying you believe me.

34:47 You could even like joke or you could even like talk shit like you probably will.

34:51 Hopefully the jury buys that.

34:54 Soon after this, Paul headed home. In the recording, you can see him walking away smiling as if this were the end of any other casual hang.

35:06 We'll get together again soon.

35:08 Yeah, Russell, two L's, one S. Thanks for coming.

35:12 Thanks.

35:12 Nighty-night.

35:20 As Paul left, Matt's husband Dave came upstairs. Dave had no idea what had been discussed that night, what details Paul had shared.

35:28 I was exhausted. I couldn't tell him.

35:32 But Matt didn't need to, because they had everything on video. Dave could watch the entire evening back. So when Matt went to bed.

35:42 He stayed up all night watching the entire four and a half hours.

35:46 And in watching the video, Dave could see that every moment of Matt and Paul's conversation was crystal clear.

35:54 We have everything.

36:01 On the next episode, the confession tape becomes evidence.

36:06 Is this the.

36:06 Real Paul with his mask off and I'm finally seeing him.

36:09 For the first time?

36:11 But if you think Paul's crimes are over, you're wrong.

36:15 Paul asked them, like, how much would you charge to kill someone? And Joseph said, so I told him, well, it would be $ 200, 000 in gold coin.

36:28 If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That is BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.Substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

36:58 And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunnick, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcahy.

37:28 Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richman and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt DelVecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.