Jehovah’s Witnesses and the 144,000, and Q&A

Heard all across the United States, Canada, and around the world. This is the Bible Answer Man broadcast with Hank Hanegraaff. Hank is president of the Christian Research Institute. At CRI, our desire is to equip you to not only defend the historic Christian faith, but become an apprentice of Jesus Christ because life and truth matter. To learn more or to find resources to help you grow in grace, call 888-7000-CRI.

That's 888-7000-274. Or go to our website at equip.org. The following program was prerecorded. And now, here's Hank Hanegraaff.

Thank you very much, Randy. In keeping with our commitment to equip you to always be ready to give an answer, a reason for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and with respect, it is instructive to note that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that there is a little flock of 144,000 who get to go to heaven and a great crowd who are relegated to earth. But is that what Revelation really teaches? In Revelation, the 144,000 in the great multitude are not two different peoples. but two different ways of describing the same purified bride. Just as John is told in Revelation about a lion and turns to see a lamb, so too he is told about the 144,000 and turns to see a great multitude. And therefore the 144,000 is

to the great multitude what the lion is to the lamb, namely the same entity seen from two different vantage points. From one vantage point, the purified bride is numbered. From another, she is innumerable, a great multitude that no one can count. To suggest that the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes means exactly that, 12,000, not 11,999 or 12,001 must surely stretch the credulity of even the most literalistic Jehovah's Witness beyond the breaking point. To begin with, 10 of the 12 tribes lost their national identity almost 3,000 years ago in the Assyrian exile. The other two, Judah and Benjamin, were largely decimated 2,000 years ago by Roman hordes. In reality, If we read the Bible for all its worth, or

mine the Bible for all its wealth, we recognize that the 144,000 represent true Israel as it was intended to be, in perfect symmetry, providentially sealed. She is the purified bride from every nation, tribe, people, and language that will step over Jordan into the new Jerusalem prepared for Indeed, the 144,000 is the limitless great multitude of all those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life and all those who will inhabit the courts of God for all eternity.

I've written about this in various places, including the complete Bible Answer Book Collector's Edition order today. You can do so on the web. At Equip.org, you can write me at Post Office Box 8500, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code 28271, or simply pick up the telephone, talk to our resource consultants at 888-7000 and the letter CRI. First up today, Richard.

He's listening in Georgia on the web. Hi, Richard.

Hi, Hank. How are you doing?

Good, thank you.

Good, good.

Hey, I love your show.

Thank you.

My question is, well... I think we all agree that Jesus came to this earth to be the Messiah, more in a spiritual sense, because His kingdom was not of this world. It was of God's kingdom. And what I'm wanting to know is, can't we also say in a more worldly sense that there were Jewish people, probably the Jewish commoners, like when He entered Jerusalem, that they were hoping that He would be a military or political Messiah And in that sense, they wanted him to be a Messiah, but he rejected that aspect of it. So we're kind of like looking at it from two different perspectives. I just want to get your comments on that.

Well, yeah, of course that's true. And it wasn't just the common Jew. It was the disciple of Jesus Christ who expected Jesus to establish Jerusalem as the capital of a sovereign Jewish empire. And that notion was ingrained in their psyches so much so that even as Jesus was about to ascend into heaven... They were asking him whether he was at that time going to restore the kingdom to Israel. So, yeah, that's absolutely true. That was the misconception then, and unfortunately, that is the misconception by many Christian Zionists today as well.

Right, right, okay. Well, I never had heard you talk about that flip side of that, so I just kind of wanted to clarify your thinking on that.

Well, appreciate your call.

Okay, thank you very much, Hank.

You got it. I want to go back to the phone lines, talk to Tim in Mesa, Arizona. Hi, Tim.

Hi, Hank.

How are you?

Good, thank you.

Yeah, I read your book, Has God Spoken? Really enjoyed it, especially the manuscript and archaeological evidence, a lot of things I never heard before. I wanted to ask your clarification on a particular part when you talked about the manuscript, specifically Jesus' words. You had said that they are not necessarily quotes of what Jesus said, but the essence of what he said. And I wondered if you could clarify that, because without further clarification, it kind of seems like it could be dangerous ground. For example, when Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, if we don't take that as a direct quote, you know, that's when cults come in and say, I am Jesus' A-way, not B-way. So I wonder if you could expand upon that.

Well, the point here is that the disciples didn't walk around with tape recorders. So they didn't have a way of recording what Jesus Christ said in terms of memorex at the time. They didn't have video cams. They were men who were moved along by the Holy Spirit, and therefore what they wrote is inspired and infallible. But if you look at their renderings of the Sermon on the Mount, for example, they're not given in the exact same way.

So the point that we need to understand is that they captured the voice of Jesus. They captured the wisdom of Jesus, but the way in which they express that differs. Not differs in substance, but certainly differs in style. The style of Peter is very different from the style of Paul. All you have to do is start memorizing Scripture to know that. The style of Matthew is very different than the style of Luke. Again, all you have to do is take their renditions of what Jesus Christ said in terms of the principles encapsulated in the Sermon on the Mount, and you see a very substantive difference. So I think we have to recognize that point. God moved through these people using their personality, but what they wrote as they

were carried on along by the Holy Spirit, is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, which is then captured in the translations that we have today, because the translations are based on great manuscript evidence, and through textual criticism you can test one manuscript against the other and come up with the autograph.

Okay, so there's really no question as far as the quotes go, it's more like just style and the way that they express those facts.

Well, yeah, and they weren't automatons. They weren't dictation machines. God worked through their personalities. And that's where you have people like Bart Ehrman, who is asking that the disciples say exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. And if they don't, then somehow or other, the Bible is full of mistakes and errors. Of course, on the other hand, if they did, he'd be screaming collusion. So either way, he set up a rigged game that Christianity can't win, and we don't want to fall for that trap.

What we want to do is explain to someone like that, who's a fundamentalist from the left, how the Bible is constructed.

Right, and it's not like they went into a trance like Joseph Smith. They were inspired and moved through the Spirit without having that type of experience.

Well, that is exactly right. They were inspired by the Spirit. They were carried along by the Spirit. And therefore, we can know that what they wrote is the infallible repository of redemptive revelation. And again, when we say that, we're talking about the autographs, but the autographs are embedded in the manuscripts. And that is the miraculous and wonderful way in which our Heavenly Father has preserved his word for us such that we can know with certainty that no ecclesiastical authority controlled what was going on so that they could have what men wanted. We can be certain that this is what God wanted, and all of that is encapsulated in the book that you referenced, Has God Spoken?

Okay, thank you.

You got it. Appreciate your call. And again, the book Has God Spoken is an important book because it will teach you how to demonstrate that the Bible is the authority. Not a authority, but the authority. you need to be able to communicate that. Because if I say the Bible says, I still have to be able to demonstrate that the Bible is an authority. Otherwise, someone can say, who cares what the Bible says? It's just another religious book. But it's not. It's etched in heavenly handwriting. And again, with the Word of God, we can be certain that we have the Word of God. And that's why we treasure the Bible. That's why we write it on the doorposts of our home. It's why we write it on the tablet of our consciousness. That's why we talk to our

children about it. We are immersed in the Word of God. Unfortunately, in post-Christian America, many Christians are now standing in the shadow of the Bible, no longer in the pages of the Bible, memorizing the Bible, meditating on the Bible, and mining the Bible for all its wealth. Right back with more answers to your questions.

To find out more about the materials mentioned on the show, call a CRI resource consultant toll-free at 888-7000-CRI. That's 888-7000-CRI. Our website is also an excellent reference destination to help you. Just go to equip.org and find articles by Hank, books, CDs, and DVDs, Again, that's equip.org. Or write CRI PO Box 8500, Charlotte, North Carolina, ZIP 28271. The Bible Answer Man will continue in just a moment. Breaking the code of the book of Revelation has become an international obsession. The result has been rampant misreading of Scripture, bad theology, and even bad politics and foreign policy. In The Apocalypse Code, find out what the Bible really says about the end times and why it matters today. Hank Hanegraaff argues that the key

to understanding the last book of the Bible is the other 65 books of the Bible, not current events or recent history. The Apocalypse Code offers sane answers to some very controversial questions such as, what does it mean to take the book of Revelation literally? Who are the Antichrist and the great whore of Babylon? And what is the real meaning of 666? Order The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanegraaff today. Available in softcover, MP3 CD, or MP3 download from equip.org. Or call 888-7000-CRI. Has God spoken? Are the words of Scripture merely human in origin, or are they in fact the very words of God Himself? Three years in the making and based on two decades of research and reflection, Hank Hanegraaff's monumental book, Has God Spoken? answers

what is surely the most important question facing our world. In Has God Spoken? Memorable Proofs of the Bible's Divine Inspiration, Hank counters the contentions of the Bible attackers and clearly shows that belief in the Holy Scriptures is not a guess or wishful thinking. It is the only logical conclusion after an honest examination of overwhelming evidence. Order Has God Spoken from the Christian Research Institute by calling 888-7000-CRI or go online to equip.org. The number of wolves surrounding the Christian flock is growing, and they relish nothing more than docile sheep utterly incapable of defending themselves. From militant secularists at home to militant Islamists abroad, the assaults on biblical

Christianity are growing dangerously. But Christian Research Institute support team members aren't in favor of feeding these wolves. Instead, each day they're making possible an array of outreaches that defang these wolf packs with solid arguments and evidence that have stood the test of time. What's more, support team members are equipping themselves with CRI's equipping essentials a hand-picked collection of the best apologetics tools around. Your selection of resources are just our way of saying thanks. To learn more about the benefits of membership, simply visit equip.org. Once again, that's equip.org. Let's return to your host, Hank Hanegraaff.

Thank you very much, Randy. Let's go back to the phone lines, talk to Ben. He's listening in Overland Park, Kansas. Hi, Ben.

Hi, Hank. Thank you for taking my call.

My pleasure.

Yeah, I've been reading your book, 21st Century Christianity in Crisis.

Yes.

And actually, my mother-in-law is deeply involved in the New Apostolic Movement and the Prophetic Movement, and she's deeply involved with prosperity preachers and Word of Faith preachers. And I'm wondering, what is the best way to, you know, generate a conversation or, you know, reach her without, you know, putting a hindrance on her relationship or, you know, causing unnecessary offense?

Well, and it's good that you asked that question as a son with respect to a mother, because oftentimes it's very hard to reach a family member. So I think you're doing the right thing to be equipped by reading resources like Christianity in Crisis, 21st Century. But I don't think you want to try to force feed your mom.

I think you want to be equipped so that if she has questions, you're there to answer those questions. But you might also want to pray that God brings other people and resources into her life so that she might come to a true valuation of things, because sometimes it happens when it's too late. And I've had this experience right here on the Bible Answer Man broadcast. In fact, I think I included it in Christianity in Crisis, 21st Century, where I had a man who called me up on the broadcast. His mother had gotten deeply immersed in the Word of Faith movement, and as a result of that, she had bought into the lie that faith is a force, words are the containers of the force, and through the force of faith, you create your own reality. So when

a lump appeared in her breast, she disregarded it because she felt that that was a lying symptom of the devil. Symptoms are something that the devil lays on you. You can't in any way allow that to be a reality in your life, so you just deny it. And as a result of that, she ended up dying. And I still remember the heartbreak in that call. So ideas do have consequences, and I think this is, of course, the most ghastly of the physical consequences. But there are spiritual consequences as well, because the faith God is not a God at all. The Jesus of the faith movement is a different Jesus. Again, if you hold consistently to the leaders of the faith movement at least, Jesus was spoken into existence by God. So it's a different Jesus, it's

a different gospel, it's a different God, and therefore we should be able or ready and equipped to use those deviations. Now, I would make one other comment here, and that is I found all kinds of people who are followers of faith teachers that really didn't understand what the faith teachers were really teaching. And so they, by default, did hold to an Orthodox Christian perspective with respect to a Central Christian doctrine. So that's a possibility as well.

Okay.

So, I mean, do you think it would even be wise to just start to discuss those essential doctrines without necessarily bringing up the freight teachers and even what they teach. Just having a biblical conversation on Christ and what it means.

Well, it all depends on your relationship with your mother and the circumstances and the situation. I'm just saying, proceed cautiously. Sometimes these kinds of things really make a rift in the family. And so I'm just saying proceed with gentleness and with respect and show due honor to your mother as your mother in the process. And oftentimes in these circumstances, somebody else that comes in and makes the difference.

Right.

Okay, Hank, thank you so much for taking my call.

Hey, you got it. Thank you so much for your call. Back to the phone lines. We want to talk next to Stephen in Seattle, Washington. Hi, Stephen.

Thanks for taking my call, Hank.

My pleasure. My pleasure.

My question is in Revelation chapter 12, verse 5 and 6, where it talks about the man-child that was to rule all nations and being caught up to the throne of God and then the woman who fled into the wilderness. And I was wondering what your opinion was on who the man-child or the male-child is and who the woman is and when this is supposed to happen. I've heard some people say that it was supposed to have happened 2,000 years ago at the birth of Jesus, but I don't really believe it.

Well, this... is a symbol. It's a very important symbol of a woman who represents the people of God. The old covenant true Israel, the wife of God depicted in the image of her husband clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, a crown of 12 stars on her head, and so forth. So she has the glory and domain of and dominion, and then brings forth a Messiah.

The actual language that is used here is language that you find elsewhere in Scripture. So particularly when you read that she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter, this is language we're all familiar with from the Psalms. So this is a depiction of Jesus Christ. As far as the timing is concerned, I think it's important to recognize that even in this passage, we have clues as to when this is taking place. Jesus himself says, so when you see standing in the holy place, the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through the prophet Daniel, and then he's telling them flee, you know, don't even stop and get your coat. And so this is a warning to flee during the second half of tribulation. And of course,

we all know from the context in which this is given to us within the scripture, the words of Jesus Christ himself, that this is something that happened in the second half of the tribulation in the first century. Jesus makes clear that this would all happen within a generation. So the time frame is given to us within a historical context. So to take that and somehow or other transport that 2,000 years hence into the 21st century, of course, would be an abominable thing to do.

Well, I was wondering because I don't remember Mary fleeing into the wilderness for 1260 days and Jesus being caught up right after he was born, you know?

Well, but remember that the way in which Revelation works is that you have symbols that are used within Revelation. They're reconfigured and used in different ways. So again, the woman represents the people of God. And you also have that woman who is, in essence, the mother of Messiah, who gives birth to a son, also gives birth to a people. And so the way in which the symbolism and the imagery is reconfigured in Revelation is something that we have to be aware of as well. So there's a lot going on. Revelation is not a book of riddles originating from a shallow post-Christian mind. It's a book of symbols that are deeply rooted in Old Testament history.

And the reason we have difficulty understanding them is that we simply don't know our Bibles. John reminds us repeatedly that his prophetic words are in keeping with the words of the Old Testament prophets. And so what John is doing in Revelation is returning to Psalm 2. It's one of his favorites. And he uses that to explain the symbolism.

The Son, obviously Jesus Christ, the seed of the woman, the child of the virgin, born of Israel to rule the nations. And that's why we have the words that he will rule them with an iron scepter. And John then telescopes the entire history of Christ's earthly ministry and says that the child was caught up to God and to the throne, as though Christ's incarnation has led directly to ascension and then to glory. And the point is not to undermine atonement or resurrection, but to stress that the Lord's anointing escapes the power of the evil one.

And in the psalm, you have Messiah's heavenly birth as one with his enthronement. And therefore, despite what the devil does, the seed of the woman is caught up to the throne and now rules the nations with an iron rod. And of course, the woman's flight into the wilderness is a picture of what Jesus is instructing in Matthew 24, what he is instructing true Israel to do, to flee the destruction of Jerusalem. And therefore, the dragon and the beast and their wrath and even that of apostate Israel, the woman who rides the beast, is not extended towards.

Those who are true Israel, but rather to those who are apostate Israel, those who are in bed with the beast. Again, for more detail, I've written about this in various places, including the Apocalypse Code. Find out what the Bible really says about the end times and why it matters today. You can also get some really good commentaries. We have one by Steve Gregg. where there are four views on Revelation.

You can check that out on the web at equip.org. Another book that has been helpful to me over the years, The Days of Vengeance by David Chilton. And again, we're not asking you to accept everything that's said, but we're asking you to take resources like that so that you can check what is said in light of what has already been said, which is essentially what we want to do.

If you want the key to unlock Revelation, You have to know the rest of the Bible or the rest of the story because Revelation is a fairly short book, 404 verses. 278 of them have allusions or direct quotations from the Old Testament. So to interpret them, you have to know the Old Testament. Thanks for tuning in today.

We'll see you right back here tomorrow with more.

You've been listening to the Bible Answer Man broadcast with Hank Hanegraaff. Our mailing address is P.O. Box 8500, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code 28271. To listen to the broadcast on the internet, visit equip.org, where you'll also find a wealth of information and resources to equip you. To talk to a resource consultant, call 888-7000-CRI. That's 888-7000-274. The Bible Answer Man broadcast is supported by listeners like you. We're on the air because life and truth matter. Breaking the code of the book of Revelation has become an international obsession.

The result has been rampant misreading of Scripture, bad theology, and even bad politics and foreign policy. In The Apocalypse Code, find out what the Bible really says about the end times and why it matters today. Hank Hanegraaff argues that the key to understanding the last book of the Bible is the other 65 books of the Bible, not current events or recent history. The Apocalypse Code offers sane answers to some very controversial questions such as, what does it mean to take the book of Revelation literally? Who are the Antichrist and the great whore of Babylon? And what is the real meaning of 666? Order The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanegraaff today. Available in softcover, MP3 CD, or MP3 download from equip.org. Or call 888-7000-CRI.

Jehovah’s Witnesses and the 144,000, and Q&A

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