#692 - Andy Grammer on the Hit Song He Didn't Want to Write, How Pitch Perfect Changed His Career & Meeting Stevie Wonder

0:06 I'd get an email that was from a mom who says, my daughter was born without arms. She's going in for a back surgery now because of using her legs so much. You said you'd write a song. She goes and does the surgery. Her cousins hear it. They're like jazz musicians. And I get sent back a jazz version of that song.

0:23 And they said they played it for her while she sat recovering in her hospital. Hey, everybody. Okay.

0:30 Andy Grammer joining us today. You would know him from songs like, you got to keep your head up, eh, or nah, nah, honey, I'm good.

0:39 Jams. Also, Fresh Eyes, people love.

0:42 He's built a whole career off upbeat songs and spreading positivity. His new album, Big Stupid Heart, gets into some deeper stuff as well, including family and grief, always positivity.

0:52 He's just welcomed his third daughter.

0:54 He's hosting his own podcast, and he's kicking off a new solo tour in November. Plus, he just made his Grand Ole Opry debut. When we recorded this, it was the day of him playing his.

1:06 First Opry show, so we talk about it kind of in that context. So here we go.

1:09 It's my conversation. Man, such positive energy. One of my friends said, this guy feels like he has made a coffee.

1:17 And you know what? I agree. Here he is, Andy Grammer. Andy, good to see you. Good to see you, my man. We haven't met. I don't think so. Oh, that was a statement. Okay. I mean, I've heard your name many times. So if you had been like, remember the time we met? I'd be like, are you totally? I would know. Yeah.

1:36 And I often will say- Do you forget people? I think you sound like a terrible person. I forget everyone, but I always say, hey, great to see you. Good to see you. Great to see you. I never say meet.

1:46 Yes.

1:46 But one of my dear friends is Ben Rector. Love him. And I asked him, I said, hey, you're a white singer-songwriter. Yeah.

1:55 Are you familiar with another white singer-songwriter, Andy Grammer? Because I just feel like you guys all join in the house once a year.

2:01 We do.

2:02 Just talk about emotional singing, songwriting. And he said, I love Andy. And I said, he's coming over. Like, nice guy.

2:09 He's like, yeah, very nice. So I kind of feel like I know you a little bit from Ben. Good, good.

2:13 So- You're here. You're doing a couple things. One, you're playing a show. Or did you already play it? No, I'm playing the Opry tonight. So you're here to do the Opry?

2:21 Yeah. And to hang with you. And I got a couple other podcasts running around. Yeah. We just left New York. We're press week for this record. Yeah. You're doing a couple other podcasts.

2:29 You're mentioning the other girls you're seeing while you're in town.

2:35 Sean. Yeah, yeah. Sean Johnson has a podcast that I'm doing with her. I'll accept that. Sean's great. Do you know Sean? I do. She came on my podcast. She's fantastic. And her husband's amazing, too. They both came. You have a podcast? Yeah. I haven't been asked to be on that one. Oh yeah. Interesting. Dude, we'll get you on there, please.

2:48 I'm totally kidding. I would love it. You play voicemails back on your podcast? I do. Yeah. I'm familiar with it. I was just kidding. Yeah, yeah. So why'd you start a podcast? I love, like I'm fascinated by the way that people show up in the world. Like I want, I feel like there's a lot of podcasts that are like, you want to know how to make more money? You want to know how to be the best musician possible?

3:10 You want to know how, and I'm fascinated by like, How do we create more community? How do we, what are like the tips and tricks and like actual things we can do to show up better around for our friends, our family and, and, and life, you know? Why that? What, what interested you in that concept to do a podcast about it? It's kind of what I'm always fascinated about.

3:30 And I use music to try to get to that place. Like, I hope that when you leave one of my shows, you feel more connected to humanity. You feel like, I don't know, like encouraged in some way. And, So I'm kind of like a study of that. It's like, how do we make people feel more seen, loved, heard? I just came from, bumped into a friend at a coffee right before I came here. And she was talking about how her, it was an anniversary of her dad passing a long time ago. And I'm just fascinated. Like, all right, how do I, how do I show up for you in this moment? How do we, and then it was a beautiful conversation. And I think the way that we show up for other people is like pretty, pretty important.

4:13 I found that as I've done this show for a bunch of years, it's very intimate sitting with someone. Yeah. And just kind of trusting that for an hour. Some shit will come up. And you have each other's back. Totally. Because it's vulnerable for both of us here. Yeah.

4:27 Because if you're a sucky guest, I'm going to struggle. If I'm a sucky host, you're going to struggle. And we kind of, it's a dance.

4:33 It's a dance.

4:34 And when it really works is when both are vulnerable and understanding that the other person's got them.

4:38 And I've made friends that have come from this. I think that's the coolest part. I get the number of every guest when they leave and it doesn't feel like weird. It's like, no, no, we're homies now. Like you need to come through and get dinner at my place because we just like shared some stuff for an hour, you know.

4:53 One of those people has been Rector and we grew up, he went to University of Arkansas.

4:57 I'm from Arkansas. And I was a big fan of his music, but I didn't know him. Yeah.

5:02 And I actually ran into him on a flight once. We were both in line for the bathroom and I was like, are you Ben Rector? And he was like, are you Clay Aiken?

5:11 And I was like, no, no.

5:14 Not and Bobby, but, and so then he came over and we became like really close, but it's because we spent an hour like talking to each other in a forced situation where you are kind of forced to be vulnerable too, because you really want to put your best message forward.

5:27 Of course. Have you made any friends from your podcast? Yeah. I had this guy, um, well, I'm just thinking like we haven't chatted since, but I consider my friend now Mo Amer, this comedian who's amazing. Um, Jay Shetty was fantastic. Like went over to his house and then He came on my podcast. Yeah, you go deep. You go deeper.

5:48 I think it's so much cooler than like the old talk show thing where you'd like have– I remember– Yeah, six-minute segment. I'm old enough to where you'd call and be in there. You'd run down what the topics were going to be and then they would give it to– you're trying to like manufacture something. And like you said, this is more vulnerable and this could crash and burn.

6:06 But I feel good. I feel like we're going to be all right. I'm glad.

6:10 I ran into Jay Shetty once at a store and– I never want to bother people. Like I'm really self-conscious about being in the way, just period in life.

6:20 Okay. I'm fascinated by this. I literally just wrote something today to announce my album about like, I want to talk to so many people and I want to connect with people, but there's all these little mini barriers in the way of like, and so go on. Sorry.

6:34 No, I just feel like I'm in the way all the time. And so I saw Jay Shetty. And then also I've been in the industry enough to know that a lot of people are what they say they are, but some people aren't. And I'm good not knowing who's not.

6:46 Sure.

6:46 Like I enjoy what I'm consuming. I don't need to go to the next level if I'm going to be disappointed and not still get to enjoy.

6:53 The don't meet your heroes thing.

6:54 I don't want to fly too close to the sun sometimes because like I enjoy what Jay does. And so if I were to go up to him. And I was like, you know, I was really challenging myself that day. It's probably right after therapy. It's probably within 24 hours. And I said, I'm going to go say hi. And I went up and said hi.

7:08 He was awesome. Lovely.

7:10 He was just as awesome as I hoped he would be in a store when he was randomly shopping with his wife. And I didn't feel in the way. He made me not feel in the way. He was exactly what I've consumed. And so when you mentioned him, I was like, that's like a real one right there.

7:24 He's a super sweetheart. Again, though, going back to what you're saying before about showing up, like... There's all these little mini risks to take even just in that moment of like, all right, do I risk looking like needy in this moment or do I just like let it go? And I try to tend to be the person that goes for it.

7:44 Is that because you didn't go for it for a long time and now you're challenging yourself?

7:49 Maybe. And I don't go for it as much with like famous people. I tend to not do that. I usually go for it. When it's like I have a feeling about, oh, this would be cool to do. And the only reason that I wouldn't do it would be because whether it would be socially acceptable or something. So like I lost my mom when I was 25. I never got to buy her breakfast or a meal. So sometimes when I'm out, I'll see like two moms behind me in line or something. It'd probably be a sweet thing to tell them that and then get them breakfast.

8:22 And then immediately I'm like, it's pretty weird, dude. You make it weird in here. And in those situations, I usually push through and do it. And sometimes I crash and burn. But the rate of how awesome life can be if you just do the things that come up for you, it's awesome. I find it to be one of the keys to having a really special, unbelievable life.

8:46 I like that. I did kind of a one-man show for a while.

8:49 And during it, I would talk about how if someone will come up to you and you could be just generally anybody in the theater, I say, if someone comes up to you and asks for help or advice or like you would give it to them, but at the same time, you don't want to bother somebody and you was them and you was me, right? Like I never want to bother somebody and go, Hey, would you mind helping me? But if somebody asked me, I'll help them 10 out of 10 times. Like, why am I so hypocritical with myself? And that was what I feel like that I've dealt with for a long time because I would help anybody, but I don't want to bother anybody for help.

9:20 I don't, I think we just don't want to be needy. But that is, you got to get through that, I think. Or for me too, I think it's a bit vulnerable sometimes. Yeah. Or bothersome. Yeah. I want to be in the way of people. I don't want to be in the way, but if not wanting to be in the way stops me from all these beautiful interactions that occur, then I'm okay to look stupid. Like that's the deal. The deal is like, I'm okay to fall on my face. At least two out of ten times for the other eight to be like so connected and beautiful and sweet. And I know that that is sometimes a lot to be around.

9:57 You know, like if we're at a party, like I'm the normal person. guy that's like, all right, let's like, I'm always trying to go a little bit deeper. And sometimes I got to pull that back a little bit because that can be a lot, you know. You mentioned your mom passed away. Yeah. Do you talk about that?

10:11 All the time. So what's the story? She passed from breast cancer when I was 25.

10:16 Is that why you're involved now? Because I was, are you doing something in town, a charity thing?

10:21 I did that in, was it yesterday? Two days ago in New York City. I was studying your schedule. Susan G. Coleman, yeah. Right. Yeah. So I do a decent amount of like breast cancer playing at different fundraisers and stuff like that. But what she, what happened with her was she passed. And then the way that I grieved her was by writing songs for people.

10:43 And I was like, I didn't have a fan base at that point. I was just playing like small little clubs in Los Angeles. But I read a Baha'i quote, I'm a Baha'i, world religion. And the quote was, good deeds done in the name of those who passed are most helpful to the development of their souls in the realms beyond. So the idea of that is like, if you do a good deed in the honor of someone who's gone, somehow it helps them where they're at. I don't know. I don't pretend to know like how, but they get something, a gold star, like a little Amazon package for them. So then at shows, I'd be like, I just read this quote and I'm pretty bummed out.

11:20 And so I'm going to try this. If you know, if you or you, anybody, you know, like, uh, is going through a tough time, tell me what it is. Send me an email and I will write you a song and send you a YouTube link. And, um, it's kind of vulnerable. And then, then things started to show up where it was like, um, I'd get an email that was from a mom who says my daughter was born without arms and she only, she uses her legs for everything. And so, She's going in for a back surgery now because of using her legs so much. You said you'd write a song. And in my little shitty apartment, I'd be like, I didn't say it was going to be a good song. I just wrote like, we got your back till you get your back back. Right. Just

12:01 like quickly send it off. And then she goes and does the surgery. Her cousins hear it. They're like jazz musicians. And I get sent back a jazz version of that song. And they said they played it for her. Like they brought their guitars in and played it while she sat. like recovering in her hospital. That like blew my face off.

12:23 So then I'm just chasing that all the time. And eventually my music became trying to do that thing of like, how are we... I always joke, like I tried hard in many different ways to be the singer that's like sexy or like, I don't know, trying to chase what's supposed to happen. And it was really... Kind of amazing that right from the jump, that's when my career took off, was when my mom passed and I started to kind of take that route. Like, how do we write songs that are, I don't know, helpful feels like pretentious, but creates a space for people to connect. What was the first song of yours that got real traction? A song called Keep Your Head Up that I wrote shortly after my mom passed.

13:08 And how did that find life? Did the song get found or did you get found?

13:13 So I would... It was definitely the first one where, you know, the whole debate of like, can you judge art? Is some art better than others? Or it's in the eye of the beholder, all that stuff. And I was street performing for four years and I would play a cover and then there'd be a crowd and And then I'd pull out one of mine and the crowd would leave.

13:33 You can like see it every day. You're watching it happen. And then you go like, shit. And then you go back to playing some One Republic cover and then everybody comes back. And then you're like, but how about this one? They're like, not that one. And then they'd leave. And so I would just continually keep writing songs and putting them in between covers. And I got to the point where people wouldn't leave, but there wasn't like a, you can see it, you can feel it when you're being of service to people with your music or whether they're being of service to you. There's like a very clear, I'm sure with what you do as well, you can tell like, oh, you're all giving me your attention right now as opposed to I'm giving you something awesome. And

14:09 Keep Your Head Up was the first one. Even when I was playing on the street, I could feel it. It was like different. And then we recorded it. I had my manager at the time was this guy, Ben Singer, and he helped me get it recorded in New York. And then it just started like making, kind of took off. So it organically was then shared and passed around? I mean, it took off to the point where it then made sense to get signed and then go on like a crazy radio tour to play at every radio station in America for like a year to keep getting it up the chart at that time. You had a manager while you were busking?

14:43 Yeah.

14:44 Are you the only busker ever to have a manager? I mean, I don't know. Maybe. I mean, he came out. He was like, the first thing we're going to do is get you a better sign and a better bucket. Yeah. Did he take 15% of the bucket? No, he did not. He did not. Yeah. We built it from the ground up for sure.

15:00 Did you have any sort of virality with that song on, and I don't know, what was even, was it Facebook?

15:05 The real driver of that song was the radio. But we did get, the song was in Pitch Perfect, which was a huge deal. Because that was like, I think it was the only one that wasn't like by a major artist. So it was like they're covering Rihanna and then doing all these other like huge acts. Oh, they sang it in the movie? They sang it in the movie.

15:23 It was a huge deal. And then the song started. I've had two songs so far that have been like, there's nothing you could do. You can't stop them. It was Keep Your Head Up and then Honey, I'm Good. Both had something about them where when people heard it, they shared it just like it just went. And then I've had other songs that you like fight for and then they finally get their moment. But I've had two where Once they got into the public, it was like, oh, that's going to– I couldn't mess it up.

15:52 Whenever you recorded Honey, I'm Good, was that a song you thought will single this or was that a song that kind of was just found by folks and it was forced to be a single?

16:02 That for sure is the most like virus thing that I've ever been a part of. And that was– I write usually about 100 for each record. And then like once you're at the 100, you start to whittle down to get the 12 that are like great. And I had written the hundred for the second record. The second record was terrifying because I'd had some, like pretty good success with Keep Your Head Up and then Fine By Me was like a kind of a medium hit. And then I went back in to write for the second record and I wrote a hundred and we had a party about it and it was like release day. And then the manager at the time came and said like, we don't have what we need. I need you to write another one. And I remember just being so stressed out.

16:42 And then I went the next day and I got in with my, Now close friend, Nolan Seip, and we wrote Honey, I'm Good in like 40 minutes. So that was a forced write? Forced, yes. I mean, forced to get there. Once we were there. You wouldn't have written again, though. I was so tired and done. I was not going to write another song. I'd written 100. So many, a hundred, so many bad songs to like fight through.

17:07 Then what are you thinking when you go on to even have a concept for a song that you're being told to write? Were they saying you need something with tempo? Well, what were they telling you since you had to go back?

17:15 No, this, you know, very rarely has that ever been like, we need you to write one like this. It's just like, just go again, again, go again, again, you know? And there might've been something that was very loose about it. Cause it's like, there's no way that 101 is going to be it, you know? And then it just like, and it was so weird. That's like the weirdest one I got, I think. It's great. I love it.

17:39 It's interesting when those, there are two versions of that kind of story. One is whenever I have friends that are artists and they'll cut a record and they'll have a song last minute that they just wrote and they go, let's put this on.

17:50 It ends up being a hit, right? Yeah.

17:52 And a lot of times it gets put on because they're in love with it because they recently recorded it.

17:55 Dude, the recency thing is hard. And it's not- I think that I've had songs that were The timing of when, I don't know how it works or where ideas come from. But sometimes I bet I have songs that came at the wrong time in the middle of things or, you know, and yeah, that's a bummer to even think about it.

18:15 The other one is stories like yours. And I think of like Sara Bareilles. And she writes love song because they're like, you need to write it.

18:23 I always, whenever I hear that song, there's some executive. I don't know who it is, but I'm sure there's some executive that's like, you wouldn't have written it unless I, you know. Yeah. It's like, go write. And she, I don't want to write you a love song. And me. That's what we wanted. Yeah.

18:34 Me just hearing it. I just think it's a love song to somebody. Then when you hear the story about it, it was kind of that.

18:39 I know. I know. I mean, I have another song called Back Home, which was the first single off the second record that I thought and still do think is a smash. no one fully agrees but i do and i wrote a hundred and i i thought that one was undeniably smashed but it came at the wrong time it came it's kind of like the it had like the lumini it was in the lumineers era and it was the songs back home and on the chart that was crushing was philip philip's home so it's like in that sound with with the word home in the title and the hook and um I tried to rewrite that hook so many times to get it to not be the same word. And yeah, I rewrote it like 50 times.

19:28 And then eventually it was just like, no, no, it's just, this is the lyric. It's just the weird time. I'm just in the vortex of a wrong time where it looks like it's trying to be like everybody else. And now it's one of the great like tuning forks of my life that I just stuck with it, even though it might look like I was doing like a also me, which is like terrifying in music to be like, oh, this thing's happening and me as well doing that thing.

19:52 But I didn't feel like I was doing that. I just this is the song. That's what I want to write. And now in Washington State University, it's like their football song and it has been forever. And they've had me come sing it. And at every football game, a stadium sings that song. And I go like, I knew it, dude.

20:10 I freaking knew it. And I was getting told by so many other people, like, you got to change this. You got to fix it. I'm like, no, no, no. It's just the trends of music will change and shift and go. And you can't help but be affected by them. But also sometimes the thing that you're doing against what's happening in the moment might not be exactly right. And I think one of the cool things about right now is you could write something right now that might Take off in six years, which is totally different than when I first came into this. Yeah. Whenever you wrote for Big Stupid Heart, which is the record that's out now. Yeah.

20:43 Did you do a hundred songs? Yeah. Really?

20:45 Yeah.

20:46 I mean, at this point I've given myself the, I think as a writer, you have to prove that you will finish. In the beginning, it's very easy out of fear to be like, oh, this isn't amazing. So I think I'm going to back out. But that's a door you get to give yourself only when you've finished like 500 songs. And now I'm at the place where I didn't necessarily finish 100 songs, but I definitely write, you know, verse, chorus, pre, whatever, get the idea out. And then I trust my inner self that like, if I thought this was great, I would finish it. That's huge to me. I think in the beginning to prove to yourself that you will finish songs and put yourself out there, you have to earn the right to not finish songs.

21:31 Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor. And we're back on the Bobby cast.

21:45 It's not exactly the same, but if I'm touring, doing comedy and I'm writing jokes, sometimes I lose what's funny and what's not.

21:51 Cause I'm writing it. I'm so inside. I can't tell if it's funny or not. Yeah.

21:55 Do you ever do that with writing songs where you're in the middle of it and you're going, this had to be good, but I'm not sure anymore because I've been in it so long.

22:02 A hundred percent. That was what was really helpful about the street performing thing. Now you tell me, I feel so old sometimes. The, the thing of like, just, uh, I wrote this verse and hook and throw it up on TikTok and go 100 likes or 100,000, whatever, and I'll release it as either a marketing ploy or are people actually like testing things out there? Are you asking me?

22:26 I'm asking you. It's totally a marketing ploy. Because to me, that feels like, it just feels weird. I love to... really get into the craft and try to get something right and then deliver a thing that I'm like, I stand by this. Yeah.

22:38 You said the word, though, that doesn't match with TikTok, and that's craft. It's a different craft.

22:42 Oh, it's a craft. I fully understand it. It's a craft. It's a different craft.

22:45 But I think in the songwriter world, man, there are so many good songs that don't hit the algorithm.

22:53 Totally.

22:53 That later find success in a different way that did not hit the algorithm at all.

22:57 Sure.

22:58 You know, and it's very much... It doesn't really matter what you're creating. You almost have to create it 7,000 times to see if it hits twice. And that would be so frustrating to be a young artist now. I think about that now in just my life as like a creator and a content creator that I was very fortunate that when I started this, you could do it once and it could be good and it.

23:21 Would find its place. Yeah.

23:23 It's not that anymore. You could do it once and it can be amazing and it may not find its place because the.

23:27 Algorithm is not open to it. Yeah, the only solace I have to that, because I feel that and I feel for younger artists as well, is like I came into the music industry when Napster was happening. And I would imagine that a lot of the old people... not super old, but like middle-aged people, when I came in, we're probably having the same conversation. You know what I mean?

23:47 This has happened to every generation. Every generation. They're probably going like, geez, kids, how are they going to make, how are they going to do it? There's no way they can do it, you know? But when you're 26, you're like, I could do anything. I'll write a thousand. I'll figure it out. I'll get, I'll do it. So I think great art, I do believe, will find its place.

24:05 I think one of the great things about now, though, is there just aren't As many at the same level gatekeepers.

24:13 Yes. If you're consistent enough at being good, you will be found. But I think both have to happen. I think consistency has to happen. Yeah.

24:21 And I think being good has to happen. But where I feel the disadvantage is if you're creating clips all the time, all the time, also you're not able to build actually being good.

24:29 I know. Because your whole job is front-facing clip building. I think both can be true. When I see things come across my feed of younger artists, bitching about having to do social media, I'm like a hundred percent. I get it. What you want to do is just do the art. Um, I don't know if it's that different from when I was, uh, like when I would go on these radio runs, it was like absolutely nuts. It was like four radio stations a day and then go open for some artist at night. And, uh, so if you look at the time of when I was actually getting to perform the art, it was like a slot, like a small sliver of the, of my time, Most of it was like promoting it once you actually find the thing that you like. But I thrive around people.

25:15 So the social media thing is a little bit– it feels a little bit more– like you could just be spending a lot of time alone, which I don't love, to be honest. It's kind of why I did the podcast.

25:26 One of the really cool things I've got to do doing this show is I had Ringo Starr do this with me.

25:30 Yeah! And it was so cool. I'm not going to act like I'm cool. It was so cool. It was so cool. It was the greatest. And he was just talking about back in the day.

25:37 And you'd heard the stories about the Beatles in Germany just playing for six hours at a time.

25:40 Yeah.

25:41 And not only was he and they doing that, but he played with another band before. So he did end up playing eight hours or so. And I wonder if that was, though, your version of when you were busking, when you're just out there.

25:50 Yes. Like you're learning. You're learning. I mean, for me, it was a lot of. I was the performing itself. You have to just get so many reps to get your voice. I don't think my voice was very good when I started. And that's not like a fishing for compliments. I just don't think it was very good. So being out there and just singing and feeling like where in my voice things fit and what kinds of songs fit with my voice. And then also learning the covers that I liked. I have like notebooks of structure, like sitting and going like, why does this hook take off? Like what chords and what rhythm in the melody is shifting that makes it do this?

26:28 So it was a lot of just like a crazy study. Like I got my degree in music business and walked across the stage and that day was street performing because I was like, this is what I care about. This is really what I want to try to figure out is how do you, because it's like magic. You're like shaping invisible things. I view it like you're like, you go into this thing, you're making a weird potion and You sit back and you're like, oh, no, that's a little too sweet or that's a little too something. Can I change it quarterly? I don't think I have synesthesia per se, but I do sometimes think in colors. Like when I hear things, they sound like colors to me.

27:02 And it's like missing this. And then you try to put it together. And if you get it right, then you send it out invisibly to someone else and it can like explode in their chest and make them feel a thing. That's like magic. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, especially because there's no definition at all to it. Yeah.

27:21 It's also why the AI debate is interesting to me. Okay, go on. I'm fascinated by AI.

27:29 As am I in that I'm fascinated and also scared. And I see the great parts of it, which is it is going to absolutely revolutionize medicine.

27:37 Yeah. Without a doubt.

27:39 It is going to make Earth better because it can work faster, be more comprehensive, have a greater understanding of the human body.

27:47 All right. Sure. With art, though.

27:50 It's a bit touchy with me because at some point there's going to be an AI artist that blows up. It's inevitable that there will be one and that will allow others to then be accepted because.

28:00 We're all like, no, no, no.

28:02 And I was having this conversation recently with a friend and that's a bit how it was about autotune until Cher was just like, I'm embracing it and I'm going to do believe.

28:09 Yeah.

28:09 And then everybody's like, oh. That's obviously autotune. And they're like saying, this is what we do. And so more people started to include it. And it's not the same, but it is something that really wasn't looked upon positively until it was accepted and that people.

28:25 Were open about it.

28:26 And I feel like there's going to be an AI artist that opens the door like that.

28:30 And then it's... Okay, let me ask you this though. If that AI artist was... there's still someone who's doing it. I agree. So like, do I want to listen to like someone that just prompted an idea for a song and then it comes back? I don't really want that. But what if you don't know? I think you should definitely know. Cause so much of the music process and listening to music is, is relating to whoever the person is. I, I think, I don't know if I'm old. This is my big question. I do think that there's certain types of music where like, no, whatever. I don't care. Just like, I want something to vibe to right now. Um, And then there are styles of music where you're like, no, no, no, I like stick season because it's from him and he's

29:14 from that place and I'm connecting to his story. I do think that's pretty important. It's not just... Until we can't tell the difference anymore. No, but I mean, maybe we're just early, but when you find out I mean, I still usually think I can tell because I've heard a lot of it and I work in this. I think I can too right now. Right now. It's getting better.

29:34 It is getting better. But like if Bruno Mars made an AI artist, then I'm like... I don't want to hear that. Like what? I'd like to hear what you did with that. Which all we're saying is get me back to who the person is that is now using a piece of technology that is making, that is interesting. I want your taste. I want your, what, how you hear things, what you've shaped, shaped. Um, I'm not at all interested in, uh, Someone just hitting a prompt and sending it to me. I don't want that.

30:02 As we talk about generationally things change where they're the same, when people started to use computers and music, This was a conversation then too.

30:09 Yes. Where it's like, ah, it's not the same. They're using computers or, you know, they're adding like 808s.

30:14 They're just different. It could be auto-tune. It could be any of that. That conversation has always been had of technology. I think it's a tool.

30:23 And I think if you're using it for more than a tool than in anything that you're doing at the moment, then it's– especially in art, then it gets weird. But like you said, with auto-tune and like you said, with like chopping up drum samples– We're like, where does the AI start is the question. And where's the line where we say it's not good anymore? I think for sure if you're like– if there's not a human that's written a song with their specific taste and it's not being used as a tool, then I'm personally not interested in listening to it.

30:54 I picture– 20 years ago, there were some people sitting around arguing about RhymeZone.com going, people are using the computer to find rhymes for songwriting.

31:02 I loved RhymeZone, dude. Me too. RhymeZone was great. It was like.

31:06 Songwriters going, well, back in our day, we didn't have RhymeZone, so we don't think you should be able to use the internet.

31:10 Now, the other thing that's funny is the fear that greatness... Like, how much did RhymeZone help? Maybe, but I would say... 48 of the 50 times I go to Rhyme Zone, it didn't help. You know, it still just comes back down to like, OK, as an artist, what do you have to say? What are you on the planet to like get into? Why are you here? And then what do you have to say that's different? Why does it sound different? Why is it interesting? Who's the group of people that you are here to serve to like? So that they feel more seen and heard and understood. If there's a tool that helps me do those things, then like, okay, what is it? Let's like see what it is. But if it becomes too easy to just go like hit,

31:57 then I think you lose that. And then I'm personally not interested. But I might just be old. I don't know. I have this debate all the time. Who are the people that you're serving with the new record? Oh, man. My fan base is like such an incredible group of people. I... I do think they're not– optimism is like– can sound sweet and like saccharine a little bit. The people that come to my shows are usually– it's a wide range.

32:29 Sometimes like families or– they're people that have been through something and want to be cheered on to push through it and know there's a reason to push through. So– When I sing Don't Give Up On Me and I can see the crowd get into it and like I can see people's eyes water up and they all sing that.

32:51 I think it's people who want to show up and sing about the good stuff through lenses that are like keep your head up is like I wrote that because my mom died. Right. It's like, how do you, that it's all, most of my stuff is grounded in pain and then singing it in all these different colors. But like, how do we push through here? How do we get to a place? How do I wake up and still put good into the world and stay inspired? You know?

33:18 Do you feel the pressure to never publicly be in a bad mood? Yeah, for sure. I am in bad moods all the time. But I, I think where that bubble popped for me was COVID because I was so bad at COVID. When COVID hit, I was like, okay, it's my moment. I'm the positive guy. I'm going to like help us out of this. And I'm extremely extroverted.

33:41 And I had to stay in my house and I couldn't go anywhere. And I freaking collapsed. I hated it. I was terrible. So that was a good one for me to be like, oh, well, you're not always the happy guy. What was Sesame Street like? Just the best. Have you been? No. I mean, such good vibes on there. Everybody's so happy. My daughter at the time was like prime.

34:05 I think she was like three. And I went around to each character and Cookie Monster made a little video for my daughter, Louie. And then went to Elmo. And then it was like, that was peak. It was really great. Were you able to see the things you don't normally get to see by being there? Yeah, but it made it even better because of the joy of all the people.

34:23 They were like so happy. And this really cool mixture of like highly trained, Very serious about creating great art for kids. And then quickly jumping into like Elmo voice and like kneeling down with the thing. It was super inspiring. It was great. I love Sesame Street. I'm very much in an Elmo phase now. Wait, how old is yours?

34:45 Seven months. Good stuff. Laughing then. A lot. It's the best. It's the best. And Elmo's funny. And I don't know if I'm just hearing so much Elmo that... Like, Elmo loves... Elmo's some Elmo. Oh, yeah. And that makes me laugh so much. Elmo's great. Elmo talks in third person. Oh, yeah. Elmo writes songs. Like the... I'm living this. This is so fresh for me.

35:10 But Elmo's song specifically, like I think about the songwriting of Elmo's song, right?

35:14 This is what I do. So it goes... Na, na, na, na. Na, na, na, na. Elmo's song. And the whole song is... Na, na, na, na.

35:21 Na, na, na, na.

35:22 Elmo's song. And... I write the music. I write the words. That's Elmo's song. And he just loves it. And there's nothing to this song except him saying he wrote the song. And I just think that's so funny. That's so good. That Elmo loves him some Elmo. And it makes me want to love me more.

35:40 100%.

35:41 Some of the greatest stuff is kid stuff. I'm always fascinated by how complex or simple popular music gets. It kind of like goes up and down between like, oh, like kind of the Max Martin thing where it's like very clear melodies. And then I would say there's a little more complexity now in the mainstream of what other people are liking. But if you just like consistently go like all the kids stuff, like Disney is like theater, like the Moana, that's like complex stuff. It's not like a simple hook that just gets like, it's like doing all this extra stuff. And that's what our kids love, which is always interesting to me.

36:21 The one part of kids' music that I would say isn't that, that drives me crazy.

36:24 Is Cocomelon. Okay, yeah, that's tough. Yeah, it's crack. It's crack. And she loves it. And you don't know why, but you can tell that something about this is... This is the equivalent of like... I don't know. I'm giving you fruit snacks or something right now. I can't get, and you listen, fruit snacks are good as a snack. Enjoy it for a second, but we can't just rock. We only do all fruit. We can't do all fruit snacks. Yeah.

36:46 So I don't know if you know, my dad and mom, my dad's a Grammy nominated children's singer. I did not know that. Red grammar. This is what I come from is him and my mother writing songs for children that were like really good. They were excellent. And so I grew up around them writing hooks and verses and, and, talking about songs all the time around the dinner table and walking in on them actually writing the stuff. They're great.

37:12 ABC's of you. I think you're A1 grade, A beloved and beautiful, capable, caring, delightful, dependable, enjoyable, excellent, fascinating, fabulous, gift, a gem, genuinely generous, honest. I mean, I could do the whole thing. And teaching peace and what a wonderful world and all these beautiful. So my kids listen to that for sure. They're a little bit old for it now, but yeah.

37:31 The Bobbycast. We'll be right back. This is the Bobbycast.

37:46 There's a version of Wheels on the Bus that Coco Mellon does that just drives me crazy.

37:50 And I love Wheels on the Bus. Yeah. This is a problem that my wife has with that song. Okay. Fundamentally. The mom goes, shh, shh, shh. But the dad gets to go, I love you. Yeah. My wife hates that verse. She hates that. Because she's like, why does the mom go, shh, shh, shh? I know. But the dad gets to step up and go, I love you. It's crazy. And I understand why. Listen, I get it. I get it. You have a son or a daughter? A daughter. You're so lucky, dude. It's great.

38:20 For now, I'm not just organic material that's helping out the mom. I'm now the dad. And that's really cool.

38:25 It takes a second. I'm on my third daughter and- You're kind of there to help the best you can until they can like talk a little bit. And you're doing everything you can. But even until they can smile, it's like you're just... Yeah. Yeah. Flesh. Yeah. Flesh that helps their mom, their parent. Yeah.

38:44 So your parents were musical. Were there instruments? What did you touch first? Were you drawn to it immediately?

38:51 I was mostly drawn to basketball until like freshman year in high school. And there was a round. So if there was like, I would sit and play on the piano a little bit. I was first drawn to the acoustic guitar. And that was during like tabs. I don't even know if they do tabs anymore. That's how I learned how to play. I went to Walmart and bought a chord sheet of tabs. Do kids do tabs anymore?

39:13 I don't know. Or do they just YouTube tutorial what's going on? But I went hard on tabs and kind of got caught the bug around ninth grade. But I remember the first guitar... There was just guitars around and my dad gave me one. And I remember without being able to play it, I just started writing a song on one string using it as like a bass. I've always mostly cared about the song and have learned as much as I can about music in service of like how to write songs. So you're not going to see me at my show like solo out on stuff. That's like not my zone. My guitar player is incredible at that.

39:50 He'll do it better than me. I haven't thought about tabs in so long. Dude, tabs is a good time. Tabs is like you'd go up into the office room on the computer and like wait for like five minutes until the tab actually loaded. And then a lot of them are not right. The majority of them are like not correct. But you're like that. You're almost training your ear because you're like, that's not what this is. But yeah, it's cool.

40:12 The first song I ever learned on tabs was just the intro to the Chili Peppers. It was too hard for me at the time, but I could at least see.

40:22 The numbers and know where it went. Game changer for someone who didn't know how to play music. For me. We did come in just at the beginning of like the internet thing where you could, if you just had a lot of gumption, you could learn a lot of stuff in a way that maybe wasn't possible. Maybe you could do it through books, but this was like directly the thing that you want. You like type it in and it comes back immediately. So I'm grateful for that.

40:45 I think it's gone so much crazier now where you can like take a course or learn anything. It's almost overwhelming at this point, to be honest. I have friends that do sync music. Yeah.

40:56 And they say a lot of times they're told, hey, can you kind of do it something Andy Grammar-ish? We just can't afford him.

41:02 Your thoughts on that. Try me, dude. Your thoughts on that. Just send it over. I remember that was like a great compliment that I got because we have a lot of friends in the industry and stuff. And when you, that is a small little level of that you've made it when you hear from a friend, like we just got asked if something like kind of Andy Grammar vibe.

41:18 And I was like, I have a vibe. We're here. It's happening. I've been on the street for so long. This is amazing. Yeah. Do they just come to you now?

41:27 Will they search your catalog or will they ask you to make songs for certain campaigns?

41:32 Sometimes we'll get asked to make songs. In general, it's more just like catalog. And then it's really interesting, like which songs I have super feel super protective over that I don't think I'd ever align with something. And then other ones are like, oh, that's silly. Yeah, go ahead and use that one for this or whatever. So I know that some artists have different takes on all that stuff.

41:52 But for me, there's a couple songs that I'm like, I don't ever want that attached to anything because it's like not, it shouldn't be. So like Don't Give Up On Me has been attached to raising money for cancer research. And that totally aligns and fits. And that's probably the only thing I'll ever let it be aligned with. And then there's other ones that are like, Super– like I have a song called Good to Be Alive, which is like just kind of a fun romp. And like, sure, you can put that to sell macaroni and cheese. I'm like, that's not hurting anyone. Do you ever see one of them on TV and go, oh, yeah, I forgot they're using that song? Has that ever happened? Yeah. It happened a while ago. There was– oh, I think it was

42:30 with a cruise or something. And they used– Good to Be Alive is one that gets a lot of syncs. And it was like– we did the deal so far in advance that I forgot. And we were watching the Superbowl and then it came up in the Superbowl. It was in a Superbowl.

42:43 I actually got a text from Rector. Well, his music gets used a lot too. They hit him up and they go, Hey, he's on like every cruise too.

42:49 Man, me and Rector, I really love him. Uh, there, we do a similar thing in different ways, but he's someone that I'll call once a year and we'll just share, um, like insider business stuff. And like, compare notes and check with each other, which is really, really helpful. Where did you go to school? I went to school in upstate New York for two years for acting. I'm a bad actor.

43:14 And then quickly realized that that's not what I was supposed to do. And then I went to Northridge in California for two years. And that's where you got the music business degree? Music business degree, which is, you know, I don't know how helpful that was, but yeah. I was going to ask, is it helpful to at least early on? The reason it's helpful, well, again, I got it when Napster was happening. So like we're learning about all these things while this thing in society is like changing everything that's occurring here. So it's almost not– but the network of people that I've got from that was so important. And the school is great. Cal 3 Northridge is great. I met my wife there. I met one of my guitar players who was with me for a

43:53 really long time. The other thing that's so important about getting in a group and doing it as a collective is that one of– if one of your– people in the group gets a break, it really opens your mind. So there was probably 10 of us that were like going hard, doing, playing shitty gigs everywhere, street performing. I was like booking the Viper Room acoustic nights. And there was like around 10 of us that were like, oh, you're working really hard. We're all working really hard. And then my friend Josh Nyback at that time was bass player and he went out on tour with Colby Calais.

44:29 And I, that was like a very important moment for me because this is a guy that we were all nothings together. And then you went and not to take you down because you're so talented. It just made me go like, oh, then we can do this. It can be done. It's possible. There's no like weird magic fairy dust.

44:44 It's just, it's possible. And I give him credit for that every day. I mean, me and him, he was in a terrible band with me that we would like rehearse and go play terrible shows. And then he went and I saw videos of him like on huge stages doing stuff. And I was like, oh, this is like a huge win for the whole team, you know? Who are your favorite artists? Um, if you're listening selfishly for yourself, like you're just going to enjoy music like today. Cause it changes ever. Billy Joel. Billy Joel is probably my number one. Um, piano facility, chords and melodies. It's about as good as it gets. Um, I would go Billy Joel, Paul Simon. I love Paul Simon. Um, And then John Mayer got me early and still, apparently he's dropping something

45:34 that I'm pretty pumped about. Yeah, I saw the video. It's him holding the handcuffed hands. Yeah, I'm in. That's my favorite artist. I'll ride for him forever. Dude's amazing. And then like, so that's like the straight down the middle. These are my favorite songwriters. And then I have a wide of a lot of different things. Lauren Hill was really important for me coming up. She made Integrity sound wonderful.

45:59 way cooler than I think it's supposed to. She like banged integrity in a way that was like, oh my God, you can do that. And then now I'm like really loving consuming a genre and going in deep to understand the history and why things work. So I'm like a huge bossa nova phase at the moment. And I love a ton of gospel and I love rat pack stuff.

46:23 Like I'm just like, I feel like these days I'm listening through to like get a grand scope of music. And that's really fun.

46:31 Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor. And we're back on the Bobby cast.

46:45 The first songwriter I ever heard right for me was John Mayer.

46:51 Yes.

46:51 I had heard.

46:52 A lot of great songs and a lot of wonderful things and goosebumps during songs. But the first songwriter that spoke for me. See, this is so cool.

47:01 Is that always there? You put that up because I was coming in. The Room for Squares. It's always there. So that album took me from jock to musician. Why would I put that up for you? Oh, cause I, I thought I just did something, an interview where I talked about like, that was a seminal record for me.

47:18 I must've missed that one, but yeah, yeah. Um, no, these are my favorite records ever. You'd be like, I'm very important.

47:24 No, no, no. I saw it. I was like, oh, that's, that's like, that just means that we're aligned is all that means. And I was in the back of a car getting, you know, like, young, fun high school stuff when you're old enough to not have to take the bus and your friend picks you up and we're driving. And my stupid mouth came on. And it was like a crazy moment for me. And I remember being like, what is this? Why have I... I have ears. I've heard that music is existing around me for my whole life up until this 16 years of age at this moment.

48:00 And that thing... I need all the time for the rest of my life. What the hell is that? How do I get that? And the thought that I have now been able to be that for someone else is bonkers and so cool and just so like honored to be a part of. I mean, someone did that for him. Someone, I think for him it was Stevie Ray Vaughan and someone did it for Stevie Ray Vaughan. And so this like lightning moment where people go like, yeah, music. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, dude, music. That we're like as humanity passing down, down, down, down, down. So cool.

48:35 One of the things that he said that I loved, John Mayer, one time I heard a quote where he said like, you find your musical family. Like throughout your life, you're listening. And then you're like, oh, that's like my musical dad. Or that's like my musical sister. Or that's my, and I remember when he said that the, my musical grandfather is like Stevie Wonder. because he's just all love, all joy. I'm nowhere near as talented as he is, but I hope that people feel similar leaving one of my shows as they feel when they leave his. The feeling.

49:04 I had not heard that, the musical family. That's interesting. I was at the AMAs one year and all these different light shows and people coming out and super sexy and doing this and doing that. And you can see everybody's really enjoying it. It's almost like a nightclub atmosphere. And then Steve comes out and it was like the energy shifts and we're all just like happy to be alive.

49:26 And all are valid. I'm not saying one is better than the other. You need all different types of music. But when Stevie came out, I was like, that's what I want to do. I think I could maybe provide something like that. And again, not in any way like talented music. And it just, the feeling was like a relaxed, like, oh yeah, we're here to like smile, you know? And just, and, and, and I don't know, that's, he's my musical grandfather, whether he has it or not. I got to meet him one time and open for him on like a bill at a festival. And it was incredible. What was that like when you met him? What was like the, what was happening? It was a quick thing. It was me, Lenny Kravitz and Stevie Wonder. And, uh, as, Just that

50:06 I get to say that to you is freaking incredible. That's great. Yeah. Lenny Kravitz, pretty A plus too. Pretty A plus. He, one of my best friends is a guy named Mike Wanger who helps me with my finances. And he lived down the street from me. And his uncle, he's a wonderful, he's like a white Jewish kid. And his uncle is Lenny Kravitz. And so I would see Lenny Kravitz growing up a little bit. And people would always, Mike would be like, he's my uncle. And everybody's like, no, he's not. So, yeah, the history with Lenny Kravitz is fantastic.

50:40 I've hung it out. He's wonderful. I've hung out with him a bunch of times, too. Lenny?

50:43 Yeah.

50:43 Lenny's amazing. Lenny is so good looking that it's like offensive. I saw him two years ago. It's offensive.

50:49 And he had no shirt on. And I think he was like 60 and.

50:53 He was ripped. He's ripped. Like hot, ripped. dominating an instrument. It was everything. He's all of it. Yeah. I really like emotional Lenny. Like, baby, it ain't over till it's over. Like that. So good. And then it was a whole new level that once that, like that five, that fly away came out. I remember you can get away from it. Yeah.

51:13 That was a big pop song. Whenever you got a lot of radio played, could you feel that back then? Oh yeah. Which is, I don't know. I feel like again, I, I'm like really fascinated. My record's coming out today. Right. And so the industry has shifted so much that you don't, I try to keep my eye on the prize of like, Ooh, but if this changed, then something new is, is, must be happening here. But there was something really cool about the old, when a radio hit would go, you know, and I don't know that I feel that way as much about Spotify right now about like, uh, I don't know, like collectively, can we all feel like something is happening in the way that we used to be able to?

52:05 Even if the words come out of my mouth, literally there's a blinking sign in my head going like, old. You know what I mean? And I don't want to be old. It's the death of monoculture. Yeah, the death of monoculture. I'm fascinated by this idea of death of monoculture. The upside of that is that there's probably just so many voices that couldn't be heard because a group of people didn't agree. Gatekeepers, right? They're far less. Lots of pluses, lots of negatives. I think I would hope, and I think that a lot more musicians can hit a middle tier and that's sick. You know, like that is actually awesome.

52:39 And that's the goal of the economy too. Yeah.

52:42 Like you want there to be like a strong middle class because more people thrive. I feel that way with art now too. I feel like hopefully that's what we're creating is, The ability for people to live, survive, and keep creating.

52:51 Yeah.

52:52 And hopefully that what we're doing now without all the gatekeepers is able to provide a strong middle class artistically.

52:58 Yeah.

52:59 Because we haven't been able to have that. You're exactly right. It's been way up or way down for the most part.

53:04 I got to believe that there's more people that are able to sell like a thousand tickets than there used to be. Which is good. There are people that sell 10,000 tickets that I've never heard of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. And I will say there was something really creatively liberating on this record that I wasn't worried about where it was going to go. And when you really– I think I've said that before when I was writing, but I was. Because you know, like, you know, when I came out with my first record, it was like, this is what's working on Z100. And so if you want a song to get on there, you either choose to be a part of what this is or you so drastically are opposed to it that maybe that's why

53:48 it's interesting. But to not be aware of what's happening would be kind of like crazy. And to where we are now, I was literally just in my studio and I wrote like big stupid heart. I could tell that that's what I wanted to write this thing about. And then I just thought of my fans every day and just wrote what I thought they would love and what I would love. Because now we're like, we kind of like the same thing at this point. but with a different twist and I had a lot more cello. I've never used cello on a record like this before, but I was zero worried about like, is radio going to accept this? That is sick. I can say as an artist, that's so cool. And now we're here and we're like, okay, well,

54:23 how do I get even to my people that love me? How do I get to them? Even like someone's like, I love him. I want to like connect with him. It's a lot more confusing of how to actually make sure we get like to get to them, you know?

54:37 You said the phrase, eye on the prize. And at this point, I don't know what the prize is anymore. I think I knew what the prize was five years ago. And I had often thought if I hit these goals, my life's going to change. And it could be anything from the most recent cool thing was like the show got picked up for Netflix. And I was like, man, this is crazy. Distributions all over the world. Everything's still pretty much the same, right?

54:59 You wanted the prize? I got it. Go ahead. What we're speaking of where... Stevie Ray Vaughan to John Mayer to, that's the price. To be that for someone else? To like really affect someone in my music, to help them get through a part of their life, to feel like in the car, like, oh yeah, good. Like, oh yes, I feel seen. I understand. Or like that is my prize at this moment.

55:28 I feel like my prize is understanding that there is no other prize and I just have to enjoy doing it. And let it live where it may. Because I thought, well, if this deal lands or whatever TV show I had, my life's going to change. And my prize was, man, I can't wait to see what happens after this happens.

55:47 And the prize never quite was what I hoped it would be, even when I got there.

55:52 Another positive spin, right, is sometimes I feel bad. Like had I had the success that I've had 10 years earlier, it's like five times the money, right? You're selling CDs for $ 25 or, you know, and there was so much money in the music industry and all this. And that would be hard. Like musicians that hit in like the 90s and 2000s when the money was the most, how could you not let that hit your ego? Like, how could you not be like, I am so important, you know?

56:30 I think the music industry right now is full of people that are like, I love music, dude. And I'm here and this is what I'm doing. And I hope it's like affecting you. But there's, I don't think there's the God thing. Also with the rise of social media, every show and all the backstage stuff and all that, like this is who I am every day, all this stuff.

56:47 I think we have less to worry about as far as like, I don't know, self-importance maybe.

56:52 And I think that God thing, the self-importance thing, I've been able to live in the part where at one point.

57:00 I was the biggest deal. Sure. Because there was like four of us. Yeah. That was it.

57:05 And my relevancy, generally speaking, has had a bit of a down, but my value has gone way up because my relevancy has gone down because.

57:13 There's 10,000 people doing it now. Yeah. And I have to go to what you're saying.

57:19 My outlook has got to change because if I'm comparing my success now to my success 10 years ago and the version of it, I'm going to perpetually be unhappy.

57:27 Yeah. And so my prize now is do I enjoy what I'm doing? Yes.

57:32 If I do, that means I'm going to do it to the best of its ability. And eventually, if I do something consistent enough that's good enough, happiness is going to find me. Happiness will find you and it'll change again. And so maybe you'll find like some other interesting new thing. You know, I'm like, I'm doing this podcast.

57:46 Freaking awesome. That was not on my bingo card for this year. It'd be like sitting down with Jay Shetty and getting into like really interesting talk. Like I try to stay as open as possible. Are we allowed to have grief? around it? Is that it? Yeah, I think so. I think you're allowed. Is that healthy? Is that unhealthy?

58:07 I think it's healthy to have awareness of it as long as it doesn't. It can't take you down, but you can honor like, well, that was a moment that people like talk about cities and they have like different eras. And then you'll talk to someone who lived in like New York and like the eighties and be like, that was the best time, dude. That was it. If you, if you weren't in eighties, New York, then what is this shit now? It doesn't matter. So I think it's just like a part of life that is, is ever changing and, And a lot of people that are my age that I came up with in the new version of music industry can get a little bit like crotchety or don't want to have to do the different new things.

58:41 And the way that I describe it is like, we came up playing basketball. It just switched to hockey. So you don't have to play hockey if you don't want to play hockey. Like everybody gets to choose. Like, oh, I don't want to do that. But if you're going to play, I'm like, we're going to get some skates, dude.

58:54 Let's ride. Like figure it out. And so I've tried my best to like... suit up, get my skates, figure it out.

59:03 I think the lesson that I've learned over the last few years is my eye on the prize. There is no prize other than being.

59:10 Allowed to pursue it. Yeah. That's the prize. Yeah. Because I'm never going to get anywhere and go, this is it. No, no, you're not. And I have the awareness of that now. Yeah. And I think I was forced that awareness.

59:25 With the environment that we live in where there's so many options for so many things. And there is no– again, there's no monoculture. There's not even duo culture.

59:31 I mean– Yeah.

59:33 So it's do what you do. Do it to the best of your ability. And people will find it if they need it.

59:39 You know, going back to the self-importance thing, like if it just stayed the same, I don't know. I think it's like when you leave career and you go to like life, it's a pretty cool thing to learn. Yeah. it's pretty important we don't have so many years here like not a terrible time for to learn that like oh okay there's so much more and i i try to be someone that knows that but yeah when you look at the current landscape you're like oh everything has to shift a lot of the skills that i had don't matter anymore like am i still pumped to wake up and write music and connect with fans and figure out this new landscape it's like hell yeah yes of course what'd you do with all the songs you didn't put on the record I used to just throw them

1:00:23 away because they were terrible. Now, this is my sixth album. Now, I'll hold them because like there's probably something in there that I might go back to, like little pieces that make a new song. But I have lists of them and yeah.

1:00:39 Final thing I want to talk about is I always ask because the list of people who's done it, it's so robust.

1:00:45 But before you're walking, I said, hey, did Andy do Dancing with the Stars? You won, bro. Not about me. Not about me. That's so impressive that you won. Thank you. I need to go watch some. Not about me.

1:00:57 Wow.

1:00:59 What was your experience like on the show? Because you went far. I went pretty far. They said eighth week. Eighth week. I am extremely competitive. Same. Extremely, extremely competitive. I remember being backstage. There was like some stair thing that I had to do. And for like four hours, I was like going up and down the stairs trying to do it in the stupid way. And when you watch it back, you're like, that doesn't look that cool.

1:01:23 But it doesn't look horrible, which is really the most important thing. It was really sweet because I had never seen the show. Same. But my mom loved it. And I would call her from college and that was like, she loved Derek Hough and it was like a whole thing. So when they asked me to be a part of it, I said yes, solely because I wanted my mom to have some viewing from heaven of her son on Dancing with the Stars. And it was... to this date, probably one of the hardest things I've ever done because we were touring, you know, like I went on right when Honey I'm Good was hitting. So we had like shows for big crowds in different areas and then we'd be out about to play the show and we'd rent some like weird barn to like rehearse the dance and then

1:02:07 fly back and there was no sleep. And I remember being so stressed out about like the cha-cha that they're like, do you want to go sing the national anthem for the world series? Which is a stressful thing because if you mess that up, then you're roasted infinitely on social media. And at that point doing so much of what I was not made to do, uh, like, do you want to, I was like, hell yeah, let's go do that. And it was like easy to go sing, you know? And it was great. I'm glad I did it. And they're like, if they're like, do you want to do a reunion show?

1:02:41 I'd be like, maybe. I mean, I don't know. That was hard. That shit was hard. It was really hard. It was really rewarding. I went and saw, uh, Jason Mraz when he was on it. I like, I just said hi to him and stuff. And before I can even say hi to him, he, you know, you've been on the show. You know what it's like when it's like, it's not a joke. I need to learn. Like you see him like doing this stuff. Yeah. And from the side, I was like, I'm so happy I'm not you. Oh, this is awesome. It's so fun to be here cheering for you. And I do not want to be in the position that you're in. I couldn't even say hi to him for a second. Cause he was just like, oh, it's the three, four, five, three, you know, it was great.

1:03:16 Very stressful.

1:03:17 Very stressful. I was very proud of it. I loved the people that I got to be around and meet. Who won your season?

1:03:24 Bindi Irwin. Oh, yeah. And then I see them all at different– I just did the Savannah Bananas Bowl thing. And there was like a Dancing with the Stars crew that was there. And so I have all these like dancing friends for life. I do think it made me appreciate dance. Me too. Like I did not really get dance as an art form before. When people would do it, I'd be like, oh, whatever. It doesn't like move me.

1:03:46 And then after being around it so much, I really appreciate dance now. And my daughters love dance and they love Dancing with the Stars specifically. And there's like so many dance parties that occur in my house all the time. I learned that they're pro athletes. Oh, yeah. Did you– because I lost so much weight on that show. I could eat whatever I wanted all the time. I was just like housing pizzas and you're just still losing weight on that show. Lost weight, muscle, everything. Are you a sweater?

1:04:14 I had to bring three shirts to every– like I felt so bad for my partner, Alison. I'd be like, all right, well, I got to change the shirt again because this is disgusting.

1:04:24 I don't drink enough water. If I was healthier, I probably would have been. But that experience was super– enlightening for me. I was proud of myself after. I'm never proud of myself.

1:04:35 Oh, really? Yeah. Just because I know what I was doing. I never watched it. I never danced.

1:04:39 I had no history in it at all. And then I found a different way to win. And I have friends still on the show and it's fun.

1:04:47 It's really fun. It's a great memory. I wouldn't go back. When you go watch it, because I've now, I haven't like looked at it in a long time, but now my daughters like love the show and they can't even really believe that it was me that was on it. And we'll watch something that I did. And I'm like, I cannot believe I did that. That was like a lock in. It was a level of intensity that's wild.

1:05:08 Were you disappointed when you got voted off? No, you can see my face. If you see the episode where I get voted off, they're like, Andy's leaving. You see me and you're like. Yes, dude.

1:05:19 Awesome.

1:05:20 This is the hardest thing I've ever done. You're playing the Opry tonight. So by the time this airs, it won't be tonight.

1:05:25 But when you go and you do three songs like you're doing at the Opry, are you doing new music?

1:05:31 Yeah, we're going to do one new one from the record and then I'll play two. I also just kind of like to read the room. I hate when people, I mean, I get really squirmish when people go like, what are the songs you're going to sing? I go like, what the hell? I have no idea. Yeah. We're going to figure it out. We're going to see what's happening here.

1:05:48 What do people need? Do we need to like keep it? I just played at a breast cancer thing. Yeah. Two days ago. And it was like, what are the songs you're playing? I'm like, yeah, don't you? Don't put me in a box. Is the vibe like that we all just need to like cry together? Because let's do that. If the vibe is like you've heard too many of those speeches and we all need to just like jump around and dance, then let's do that. So tonight I have a rough idea of what I'm going to do.

1:06:13 It's my hardest room ever. Is it?

1:06:15 Only because it's also my favorite, but only because they didn't come there to see me.

1:06:19 Like when I do shows. Oh, yeah.

1:06:21 I'm doing me shows. And those people know what they're going to get from me.

1:06:23 Yeah. I'm just an addition. They didn't come to see me. Oh, I know.

1:06:28 They're probably OK not watching somebody tell jokes. So I got to win them. And I have 11 minutes to win them. Yes.

1:06:34 So it's but it's so rewarding when you hit them. When you hit them. Yeah. I really relate when comedians talk about like you have to learn how to bomb. To be able to do it. And having done so much street performing where you're like almost annoying people. Like you're like bothering them a lot of your day, which we talked about at the beginning. Like, I don't want to be needy at all. But there was some gear that I had to go into when I was out there that was like, I'm going to take up a lot of space. with these shitty songs. And like, you're either going to like them or not, but you will not, I will not be ignored, which I don't know if that's, that was like a muscle I had to work. That wasn't just like in me. So now anywhere I go

1:07:13 where like the people are already here, this is going to be great, dude, whatever. I can't go down from here. They're here. I don't have to like gather them and like put them in a circle. When you're street performing, you have to like close the circle and physically sometimes get the circle closed so people can't see in. And that's how the crowd gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Listen, if you're already here, this is going to be a great night. I've really enjoyed this. Yeah, man. Great to chat with you. Thanks for doing the hour.

1:07:37 So as we mentioned before you came in, Big Stupid Heart, it is out now. Your sixth studio album, have you.

1:07:43 Done live records? Yeah, we did a live record of the last record, which was really cool. That was like a lot of mandolin based. So then we like cut out the drums and just did guitar live record of it. And then also the podcast, which, what's it called? Podcast called Shown Up With Andy. Shown Up With Andy Grammer.

1:08:00 that's really, really cool and fun. And I also have, we just did a drop of contagious clothing, which is like spreading kindness through clothes, which I think is sick. Where do you get that? I just really like, I have a hat that says like, be kind on it. And I found that I just kept wearing it because when I look at all the other hats, it was like sports teams or like different brands. I'm like, I'm on like team kind. Like this is what I want.

1:08:23 And the conversations that would come up from that. And then I kind of got a little like, Whenever I get the thing in myself, it's like, oh, it's a little scary. That usually lets me know, like, you should probably do that. You got to figure that out. Where do you get that? Where do you buy that? Oh, go to kindtages.com. Kindtages.com. Kindtages.com. You cannot purchase without leaving a kind note for the next person that buys, which is probably a terrible business decision to, like, slow people down at checkout. Literally, you've made your choice, and then, like, you get to the end, you're like, actually, this is one more hurdle.

1:08:53 Yeah.

1:08:53 Yes. One more obstacle to get thrown in as many hurdles as possible. Yeah. Andy, great to see you, dude. Lovely to hang with you. Congratulations on the record. Appreciate it. And hopefully I'll see you again sometime soon. Yes, sir. There he is. The great Andy Grammer.

1:09:06 Thanks for listening to a Bobby cast production.