FEELING THINGS: Dealing with Narcissists at Work

0:01 One, two, three.

0:05 If you ever have feelings that you just want some, Amy and Kat got you covered like an umbrella.

0:12 Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the.

0:14 Spirit where it tells us. From the real stuff to the chill stuff and the in-between.

0:21 Sometimes the best thing you can do is just stop and feel things. This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy.

0:32 And I'm Kat.

0:33 And we are finally tackling the big narcissism in the workplace episode that Kat and I have been talking about doing for a while now. Kat is very pregnant and she... Well, you can speak for yourself.

0:50 I'll try.

0:51 But that's the thing. She gets very out of breath and this is her wheelhouse as a therapist. I mean... not that you focus on narcissism, but this is definitely more your lane than mine. I'm here for support and conversation and cats also hot, but we also get hot in this room because of lights. So it was funny before we started recording, I was like, Oh, do you want my fan that I walk with? So I have this neck fan that I walk with, especially when it's really hot out and it's so refreshing. And I was just imagining cats sitting here doing this episode with a.

1:30 Sounds so nice, honestly.

1:32 And then have your little Tums nearby. Yeah.

1:36 I recently purchased Tums for the first time.

1:38 It's getting real.

1:39 Yeah.

1:41 Yeah.

1:41 If I had to have a feeling of the day, it would be out of breath. Well, we do.

1:45 We still have feelings of the day, even though it's a narcissism episode.

1:48 That's my feeling.

1:49 Is?

1:49 Out of breath. Out of breath.

1:51 Oh.

1:52 We're going physical. That's how I'm feeling. I will be doing a lot of talking today. So for anybody listening- Especially because somebody might have sent you this episode and this might be your first episode of Feeling Things to Listen To. I don't normally talk like this.

2:06 And you're like, these people have labored breathing.

2:10 I'm about to have a baby. And we've been promising this episode for a long time. So I definitely wanted to do it before I went on maternity leave. And I wrote some notes. So hopefully that will help me talk slower because I tend to be a fast talker and that makes it worse.

2:27 So.

2:28 Just, you know, offer me some grace and listen with caution. Okay.

2:35 All right. Well, my feeling of the day is I'm proud. Oh. I'm proud of us for finally doing this episode. No, it's related to this because I think sometimes when things are really sensitive, sort of like the Mel Robbins deep dive. Like we wanted to do that for a while and it took us a minute. We finally did it last year.

2:59 And after that, we thought, okay, well that did really well and it was interesting and we learned things and other people seem to enjoy it. We've thought of all these other things we could do deep dives on. It just feels really sensitive and, oh, you know, a precious topic. And also if it's a deep dive on another person, then it's, we're going to handle it with care and make sure people receive it in a way that we're not sitting here trying to break somebody else down, just giving information that I too found helpful. And it helps shape what I'm going to pay attention to and what I'm not. And narcissism, whether it's in the workplace or in your home or in another type of relationship, it's very difficult to navigate, to live with. It can be

3:54 so exhausting and debilitating for people that are in it or in the thick of it. And we just want to preface the episode with that, that if you're in any type of relationship, we hope that this is helpful and we are grateful. thinking of you even though we don't actually know you. Like I want you to not feel alone in whatever you're going through because it may feel that way, especially if you don't have anybody you can talk to that understands. Yeah.

4:24 And I'm glad you're starting out that way because one of the reasons I wanted to do narcissism in the workplace is because we all are more likely to find and encounter somebody with narcissism at work than we are to date them. than we are to have them as parents. Because you're working with a lot of people. You have, most people have two parents. And you're most likely dating less people than you're working with. So you're more likely to run into it here. And also the work stress that can put on people. Studies have shown that people that, this is me trying to talk really slow. But studies have shown that people that work with or have a boss that exhibits narcissism have higher likelihood of having cardiovascular disease,

5:24 higher likelihood of having a heart attack, higher likelihood of having a stroke. And that's just physical health. They also are more likely to have GI issues. They're more likely to use substances. And on the other hand, it also affects anxiety, depression, and all that in the mental health field. So this isn't just we want to identify narcissists and bash them. No, that's not what this is at all.

5:50 I actually have a lot of empathy for people with narcissism. Narcissism.

5:56 Are you trying to think about talking so slow? Yeah, as do I. And we've talked about that on a previous episode recently about how it's like, oh, shoot, you know, having compassion for why someone is behaving the way that they are. However, your compassion doesn't have to be, your compassion can come with boundaries.

6:23 Right. Yeah. Narcissism comes from a wound. You're not born with it. So that's where our compassion can come, that these are human beings. And yeah, what we want this, what I'll speak for myself, what I want people to glean from this is if you have been in a really what you would describe as chaotic or toxic work environment, this might help put some pieces together. And then we're going to give you a little information on, okay, well, if this is where, if this is what I'm dealing with, this is what I can do to make things better for myself.

6:56 And another reason why I wanted to set up probably the, why we were a little shy to jump on this out of the gate is similar to a lot of things you see on social media. There are people, a lot of people can get, called a narcissist when it doesn't mean that they are. Just because someone checks even a few of the boxes, it doesn't mean they have NPD, which is the, isn't that the way we say it with the DSM-5?

7:26 And I mean, yes. So there are, I think there's like nine or 10 traits of narcissism in the DSM. And I think you have to have five of them. Don't quote me on that, but it's something like that. We all, every single human being is going to have a trait or two of narcissism. We actually need a healthy amount of narcissism to survive. It allows us to go after things. It allows us to have self-confidence. It allows us to like ourselves. In a nutshell, narcissism means like self-worship. So we need to have a little bit of an ego to be successful in this world. So we're all going to have a little bit of that.

8:03 And when you say we all, like literally. Everybody. Me, Kat, CryoKat. Everybody, everybody listening.

8:11 Yeah, all of you. All of you.

8:13 There is absolutely an example, a day, a time where you had some sort of narcissistic behavior, more than likely. I know I'm making a blatant statement there, but there are times where it's like, oh, but that doesn't equal narcissists.

8:29 Yeah. Narcissism is pervasive. So that means that it is always, all the time, forever. It doesn't go away. It doesn't just show up in your friendships or at work. It shows up at work and in your friendships and in your relationships and on your own. It shows up when you order food at a restaurant and when you're pumping gas at the gas station. Like it's always with you.

8:56 So that's a big part that differentiates between like when some of us, like a trait might show up in a certain area versus this is pervasive. It is all the time. You don't just see like, oh, they are such a perfect wife and mom and then they're just terrible at work. Well, it would blend over or bleed over.

9:16 When it's happening in the workplace, it's likely showing up at home somehow too. There's no– they can't turn it on at work and turn it off around others.

9:28 It's who they are. So a personality disorder is who somebody is. And yeah– There's a lot of manipulation involved in narcissism, so you can hide it at times and you can turn things up and turn things down a little bit, but it's going to bleed at some point. It's not only going to be in this one area and you're not going to be like, this person is perfect over here, but not over here. If you have a boss that is this way, they're probably showing up in certain ways. with their family and friends too. They might not have all clued into it yet. Like not everybody might know what's going on because not everybody always knows that they're dealing with a narcissist when they're dealing with one. Most of us have probably had experiences with

10:16 people with narcissism and we just don't realize it. So there's like, it's like twofold. Sometimes we're like throw it at the wall too much. We like call too many people narcissism, narcissists. And then sometimes we excuse behavior or we don't see certain behavior because we're looking at somebody through a certain light. Um, Anyway, the point of this is not– this episode is not to diagnose. That's why I'm not even going through the criteria that's in the DSM because that's not the most important thing. I don't want us all to go out with like a sheet of paper being like, do they check these boxes?

11:00 Yeah.

11:01 Because to be diagnosed, you really need to go to a mental health professional. And most people with MPD are not going to a mental health professional to be diagnosed for this. I will say that– most narcissists are men. So sometimes it feels like that when we're talking about them. It's because it's actually true. I don't have the why, the scientific reason on that, but according to the DSM, most people that are diagnosed are men. So just a little tidbit. Women also can have this, though.

11:38 Yes. But most being men.

11:43 Okay, so we kind of covered... what narcissism in a nutshell is right there.

11:50 Without listing the symptoms or the behaviors or the traits.

11:57 The traits.

11:57 Yeah, the traits.

11:58 So two major things that I would look at, this is not, we're not going to the DSM right now, but like two major things that all narcissists are going to, I want to say encounter, going to have are a grandiose sense of self, which is, you know, they think very highly of themselves, and a lack of empathy. Now, what's hard about that is some narcissists at times can turn on that empathy, but it's not true empathy. So they also can be very cold. And there's four types of narcissism. We're not going to get super, super deep into the four types There's like the overt narcissist, which is the one that I think most of us think about.

12:47 That is a very big, loud character. You can tell that they like themselves. They kind of seem obsessed with themselves. And there's a covert narcissist, which plays more of a victim role, where the overt is like, I'm the best of the best. The covert is, I'm the worst of the worst. That one's really tricky. And then there's malignant, which that one is the one that's going to like not stab you in the back but like stab you in the front like they are so cold and so mean and they get joy and pain joy and other people's pain so they get sometimes have or have you ever experienced like somebody making a joke about somebody to their face and just getting so much joy out of making somebody else feel so uncomfortable and bad about themselves Thankfully,

13:35 I don't think I have. I'm like, I have. But there are certain types of people.

13:41 Who- In the workplace, did you? Or was this a personal.

13:45 This is more personal. Yeah. There's certain people that you can sit in a room with and I'm covering my face. I'm so embarrassed or so uncomfortable for the people around me. And the thought I have when that stuff happens is, how does this person not feel uncomfortable? Because they have no empathy. So they can say things that are so- Out of touch that I might be like, how could you say that to that person's face?

14:10 Oh, well, I've seen that on TV.

14:12 Yeah, I'm sure you've seen it on TV.

14:13 I've seen it on the news.

14:15 Because they.

14:16 Yeah, I just haven't been... Or to my memory at this moment, I can't recall somebody behaving that way in a room.

14:24 The malignant is not going to be as... You're not going to encounter it as much, but when you encounter it, it's palpable. There's no... And then there's a communal narcissist, which that's the type of person who is like the do-gooder. Like they're the one that's, you know, heading a charity. So you're like, how could they be a narcissist? Or they get a lot of power and ego from helping other people. So they're not helping you to help. They're helping to get the recognition of helping.

14:58 Got it.

14:58 And so you think I'm such a good person. all of these people, again, I'm saying this with care and kindness because all this comes from a wound. All of these people are manipulative. And so a lot of their behavior is not like, you can't just look at it as face value. And that's where I think it gets a little tricky for a lot of people when they see like the communal type of narcissist doing something. Well, they can't be a narcissist. Look what they did for me.

15:29 But they might've done that for you To have your admiration and that helps them get to where they need to be. But as soon as you are no longer giving them something that they need that's going to help them, they might drop you. We'll get more into that. So in the workplace, a narcissist is going to have the traits of a highly successful person, just the nature of who they are because of how they have chosen besides the covert narcissist, right? That one's probably going to not be in an interview striving for greatness. They're not going to be talking very highly about themselves. But all the other types of narcissists look very confident and they aren't afraid to go after things. Again, they think very highly

16:22 of themselves. They're good at selling themselves. And so you're going to find a lot of CEOs, a lot of, just bosses in general. I mean, not every company or every workplace has, you're encountering a CEO, but high level positions. C-suite. C-suite, which Amy and I recently learned about.

16:45 Whoa, whoa, whoa. That was at least over a year ago.

16:48 Okay, I was going to say, I think mine was like five years ago.

16:50 Okay, I will admit mine was, we're coming up actually on two years of me knowing C-suite because I won't forget.

16:57 Good anniversary. It was.

17:01 November, October, November, two years ago that I learned. Okay.

17:09 Well, I wish I knew my date.

17:11 In case anybody listening isn't familiar with C-suite, it's the executives that are CEO, CFO, CMO, and they likely have a office with a window. They have a suite. So they're the C-suite executives. Yeah. And if you did not know that, No shame. Yeah. Because not everybody is in that corporate life.

17:36 But a lot of C-suite members, this is not all of them. Okay.

17:40 Is this because they, in order to get to the top where they got there, they kind of had to do whatever it took to get there?

17:47 I mean, some people that would, yeah. Some people they're ruthless. And so, yeah, you're going to do that. Sometimes it's just, they don't have to be ruthless, but they are just so, I think the The ego, it helps somebody in an interview process, helps people with relationships. They're going to be climbing the ladder in a different way that you and I might climb the ladder.

18:11 Well, and having that ego or that confidence in yourself too helps you get further along because you believe you can do it. It's almost this, some of us have to act as if in order to get it. And we're like, in our brains, we're like, you got this. You are amazing. You're awesome. acting as if you you are the leader you are in control you are but like they they don't have to act as if because unless they're the covert then they believe they really are the best.

18:39 And there is a yes they do believe that in certain circumstances and also it is a um survival strategy they have taught.

18:52 Themselves okay because this is where i also get a little off because you hear that so many narcissists truly are so insecure so then it gets tricky because you're like well they they're able to believe they are the best and then also that's rooted in insecurity.

19:09 Right okay so their actual sense of self is very fragile okay um Which is why sometimes if you go against a narcissist, if you stop shining whatever light or you try to expose them, they can turn on you in an instant. There's not a lot of healthy dialogue. There's not a lot of open for feedback. They can't hear that because their wound has already attacked their sense of self and who they are so deeply that they've kind of created a lot of safeguards around that. So yes, they might not. always even know that either, but I just think it is helpful. I'm glad you said that for us to know, because it can be so frustrating that like these people look like they think that they're best of the best and all this stuff. What it

20:03 really comes down to is deep, deep, deep, deep, deep insecurities. There's no point in bringing that up to them on your part.

20:12 Oh, like that won't be helpful, especially in the workplace.

20:15 Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And that's something that I wanted to touch on is if you notice this or you feel this or you see this, once you spot it, it can be so frustrating. Once you see the things and the patterns and all that can be so frustrating because you just want to be like, this is not right. This is not fair. I see what you're doing. calling it out is not going to help you because the systems in the workplace are set up. We'll get into this a little later, much like a family system. And the system is working on this dysfunction. You calling that out is most likely going to make you look like the chaotic one.

20:58 So let me ask you, is that because the narcissists, is so like, who's thinking your chaotics? Other people on the team, everybody, because they stay calm.

21:10 Yeah. So, well, yes, the, the narcissist is going to manipulate you to make you feel crazy, crazy. But also the system is set up to, again, like think dysfunctional family. We recently talked about the dysfunctional, um, roles in families, like the placater, the hero, the mascot, the scapegoat, all of that. So much like a dysfunctional family, your workplace is going to operate like that. There is a level of homeostasis, which is balance, means balance, even though the balance is unhealthy and toxic. It's still a balance of toxic and it works and everybody's playing their role. So when you start to notice this behavior, when I feel like I'm getting like backwards because I haven't talked about

22:04 certain things, but when you stop being fed the like narcissist nutrients that are like helping you survive in this place, when you get discarded, when you start to see the light and you want to, it gets very frustrating. You want to say something, but that doesn't mean that everybody else has seen that. And so they're still getting what they need out of this situation. So they don't want you.

22:31 to ruin this. They don't want you to mess with the system. Much like in a family, if a family member is no longer willing to play by the rules of this family that are dysfunctional and toxic, maybe they're no longer willing to just sweep things under the rug and they want to talk about things and they want to have confrontations and they all want to do that.

22:56 They're going to look like the scapegoat because nobody else wants to do that. Like, We're fine. We're thriving over here doing it this way. Please don't mess with this. And so that's what's most likely going to happen to you. And it's not going to– you're probably going to feel– there's going to probably be a punishment for you versus, oh, I saved the work environment. Now it's healthy again. It doesn't always work like that. And so we'll talk about what to do. But what's really frustrating for me is– There's not a way for you to like sit down with this person and have a healthy confrontation because they're not in the business of doing that. Their behavior is kind of maddening. It's hard to explain sometimes. It can

23:48 make you feel crazy and it doesn't make sense and it doesn't make sense because that's what it's built off of, if that makes sense.

23:57 Yeah.

23:59 It doesn't make sense because it doesn't. And I think that is a sentence I hear myself saying a lot when I hear people, especially in my office, talking about these situations. We're like, I can't make sense of it. I'm like, well, good. That means that you're not in their type of brain, that you have this healthy brain.

24:15 This doesn't compute into that. They play totally different rules. So let's talk about what it specifically looks like at work. So let's talk about what it looks like at work. I gave you the four different types. So there's the one type that's like the classic, the overt narcissist. That's going to be very loud in your face. They're the person that is yelling. They're the person that is giving you crazy assignments, asking you to go above and beyond and not blinking, you know, I've never had this type of boss, but like the type of boss. Oh, my gosh.

25:09 I'm rewatching New Girl. And there is an episode where Jess– have you seen New Girl?

25:16 Yeah, I like it. Okay.

25:18 Jess gets a new boss and it's– what's her face from Saved by the Bell? The girl that takes the caffeine pills.

25:27 Oh, Jessie Spano? Yes. It's her.

25:29 It's her. And she's this new principal that doesn't want to do any of her work and just gives it to Jess. And she gave her this like budget binder and it was like maybe two weeks worth of work. And she was like, I need you to do this tonight. Like those are the kinds of assignments that this type of boss is going to give you and like not think about it and be like, do it or you're fired kind of thing. So that's your like classic type of narcissistic boss or I mean, coworker. Now, Then there's another kind that I think is more common and at the same time might not feel as common because it's harder to spot. And this is, I think, if people are listening and lights are going to start coming on, it's going to be more about this type of person.

26:17 And it's because they play such a more careful game. They are people that look like they are They want the best for you and that they want you to succeed and that they care about you, but they really don't. And this is– these kind of people will hook you. I've experienced more of these people than the other. Now, both of them have a lot of the same like traits.

26:46 What was this one again?

26:46 Did you say the name? It's the communal narcissist.

26:50 Oh, the communal.

26:51 Yeah.

26:51 Communal. Yes.

26:53 So this is the type of narcissist that's more like the do-gooder. This is the type of, and I'm not saying, I'm not calling anybody out when I say this. This is the type of person who like could work for a nonprofit. And when you think of people working for companies like that, you're like, well, they have to be such a good person. But that's part of the thing they get from that. It's like, you think I'm such a good person. Okay. These people are very nice. They want everybody to see them as like a hero or a saint. They help others get praise and attention. So I'm going to help you get some attention to. But again, it's not because I want to help you. It's because I want you to be like, Catherine helped. Do you

27:34 remember when Catherine did that thing? She's such a good mentor.

27:37 So you're pointing at yourself like you would be the- Like if.

27:42 I helped you get praise and attention and you would go and tell your friends, gosh, my boss is the best. They helped me get on this committee.

27:50 But you're only doing it.

27:52 So you would say that.

27:53 Yep. Okay.

27:54 So then you start thinking- I am such a good person and I've hooked you. So I've kind of got you in, right? It's a way that we manipulate. So this is, I would, I don't want people out there to be like, you know, looking into everybody's behavior, being like, I can't trust anybody.

28:12 Oh, because there are fabulous, amazing, big hearted people in C-suite positions, in nonprofit positions that are not narcissists at all whatsoever.

28:24 A hundred percent.

28:25 We're just, this episode is about narcissism in the workplace. So that's, we're talking about these work positions, but that doesn't mean everybody in these spots. Obviously that is clear. I didn't think that would be known, but I just wanted to say it.

28:39 Yeah. It's important to say. I think it's important to say it because sometimes when I'm talking about this, it's kind of what you said in the beginning of the episode. I feel like I'm like bashing people and also scaring people. There's plenty of good in the world too. There just is some not so good, and I want people to be aware of it.

28:55 Right.

28:56 So these type of people are going to use love bombing. I think a lot of us know what that is, but in case you don't know what love bombing is, you usually hear it in the context of relationships, like in the beginning of a relationship where a guy or a girl is just being amazing, whether they're buying you expensive gifts or they're being super, like, incredibly kind or they're taking you on a crazy trip early in a relationship.

29:24 A crazy trip. Have you been on a crazy trip early in a relationship? No. Okay. It felt like you related to that.

29:32 No. I saw a documentary. Oh, yeah. Crazy trips early on are such a red flag, which again, it's doesn't always equal narcissist.

29:42 But something to watch out for. Yeah. I was love-bombed with a trip early in a relationship.

29:48 Yeah, you were. And are you going to say this?

29:51 What?

29:52 Well, he ended up being a narcissist. Yeah.

29:54 Yeah.

29:56 100%. Well– I mean, like diagnosed by you and me.

30:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had a lot of traits that made us question.

30:05 Right, right, right.

30:07 You know what's interesting? I had two people early in a relationship try to take me to the same place. What is it? See, I just start asking, what is it about me that doesn't see this stuff so early? Love bombing feels really good, guys. So let's just put that out there. I don't want anybody to feel bad about themselves for succumbing to the love bomb because especially if you don't know what it is.

30:34 Yeah. And if affirmation is your love language and someone is doing something, even your love language at work, like we're kind of bouncing back and forth between a romantic relationship and work now with the love bombing, but even at work being affirmed, if that's your love language- feels so good to be told that you did.

30:59 A good job. Especially in front of people. Yes.

31:03 It can feel lovely. Yeah.

31:06 And in the workplace, the love bombing can be, it's not always going to be a trip or gifts because sometimes that's inappropriate and they can't do that. But it can be a lot of the affirmation that you're talking about. It can be awards. It can be just being invited into certain rooms that not everybody gets invited into. It can be just them saying things like, I can trust you more than anybody else here, or I want your opinion because I value your opinion more than anybody else here.

31:38 That makes you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm special. That's what the feeling is. It's like you start to feel, I'm so special that finally somebody.

31:50 Sees how fabulous I am. Well, what's tricky is there are some amazing people in the workplace or bosses or coworkers that want to acknowledge someone's behavior. And again, just because someone has said that to you, it doesn't mean they're love bombing you. Someone that is not a narcissist can hand out a genuine compliment to you in that way.

32:14 So it, To me, trying to assess, and again, we're not trying to do that for people, but I picture someone listening thinking, oh, I clicked on this episode because I feel like I might be experiencing something like this in the workplace. They might be trying to think through anything we say and what person has done that. And I think it's more of you build your own data and it's going to take time and collecting and keeping notes if you need to for yourself. Because especially if you're in a place where you're starting to feel a little bit crazy or you might be manipulated, notes can be your best friend. Notes that are handwritten at your home.

32:59 Don't email yourself notes from your work computer. Right?

33:04 Don't do that. Don't do that.

33:06 But it's good to make note. I think at work, it's good to make note with dates and times.

33:12 Yeah.

33:13 Because As you build data and information for yourself, it might be data and information that comes in handy down the line. Yeah.

33:22 And in the love bombing phase, you're probably not going to be inclined to write a note. But what is interesting in what I think helps click on the lights for people is this love bombing doesn't last forever. It can be turned on and turned off and a lot of times you'll feel so good and all of a sudden you'll feel like you're discarded and thrown to the side because that person has extracted what they need from you.

33:50 And if you no longer are giving them anything, then they no longer need you. You're discarded. You'll look up and there's somebody else who's getting invited into those rooms now. There's somebody else all of a sudden that's in that space. And that's a lot of times when I'd say, okay, now start. Write in those notes and think about the things that have happened. You might have to retroactively do that.

34:12 And we'll talk more about that as we get into like what do we do if we're in this situation. But that is so important to have some documentation.

34:21 That's a good point. Like the light bulb has to go off to have the documentation. I'm just thinking if someone's sought out this episode because that means that you already have some sort of indication. So every little thing we say or that Kat's bringing attention to, just because you've experienced doesn't mean again, that someone is for sure a narcissist. Cause there might be people at your work that genuinely think you're amazing. Yeah.

34:47 You're like, anytime somebody gives me a compliment, I document that at my home computer. You don't do that. Okay. So also a lot of times, and I'm going to say this now, when you're talking about people who are toxic or abusive or environments that aren't healthy, you'll hear somebody at some point say, well, if it's that bad, just leave. Or if that person's treating you this way, leave.

35:14 With this situation, I mean, with most situations like that, it's not that easy because people are victims and are manipulated and there's more to it. It's one of my least favorite things to hear people say. But in this situation, part of the love bombing can be the narcissist giving you something that you can't get anywhere else. And it could be in the form of Maybe they're paying you more than, let's say you were a project manager for a marketing firm. I don't know how much they make or I don't even know if that's like an actual job, but like let's say that's what your job is. Let's say they were paying you like $ 250, 000, but you're at entry level or mid-level or something. And you know you

35:57 can't go anywhere else and make that. If you left, you'd be taking a huge pay cut. So that's a way that the narcissist can kind of manipulate you and kind of like dig into your– like buy your loyalty where, yeah, if I was– if my typical median salary for my job– we'll go therapist. If the median salary was like $ 70, 000 but I got hired and was making $ 200, 000 as a therapist who's just working 40 hours a week, it would be hard for me to give that up and go work at a job for $ 70, 000. Or it doesn't have to be in the form of just your salary. It can be any kind of work perks. It can be in the form of any kind of insurance benefits or travel or something like that that they know that you need that you can't get anywhere else. Or it can

36:47 maybe be they are high up in your industry and they have a lot of power in your industry and that if you quit that job, you're afraid if anybody else would hire you. in that, or you could get the same type of job. And so I want to have a lot of empathy for the person who's experiencing this, that it's not as easy as just leave the situation.

37:12 And if you're experiencing this, I don't want you to think like, oh, I'm weak or whatever, because people have families and people have bills to pay. And this is why the workplace makes it so hard, because it's your livelihood. It's not just I don't want to say like just a relationship, but it's not a relationship that you could cut off easily and just walk away from in some situations.

37:35 I mean, if you think about those types of relationships, sometimes it's hard to cut off because let's just say, for example, especially since more men end up being narcissists, like if you're in a man and a woman are in a relationship and he has created that power imbalance and now she's dependent upon him. Yeah. It's, very difficult for her to just walk away because through that relationship, lifelines have been severed and purposefully. So then just walking away isn't as simple as getting out of there because you may not financially have or network of people, your people that are close to you, you don't have anywhere to turn. Yeah.

38:22 And oh, that's a good point because also in the workplace, Because like I was talking about it being a family system, like you don't want all of the people that you love and that you've known and you've worked for to turn on you either. Like it's a big risk because you might lose people that if I call out this behavior or I expose something, I'm also risking losing all of these people because I don't know if they're going to believe me or see my side or have the strength to acknowledge something or if they have had the switch come on yet. So you would be risking, yeah, a lot of lifelines there as well. Another thing to note about what it looks like in the workplace, and this is, again, this kind of is everywhere, but chaos.

39:10 Where there is a narcissist, there is chaos. Now, not everybody might know where the source is coming from, but if there is always chaos in your work environment, there might be a narcissist afoot. Have you seen it? around. Have you seen The Glass Onion?

39:34 Yes. Which one? The first one.

39:36 All of them are good. The first one's the best. But that guy, that's one of our like the quotes that we say the most in our house when Benoit Blal or whatever his name is. I don't know. He has that cool accent. He's like, I've heard there's some treachery afoot. That just made me think of it. There's a narcissist afoot. Yeah, there's a narcissist afoot. Now, it might not everybody might realize that like all of these little spouts of chaos lead back to the same person because this is a key part.

40:12 I don't.

40:13 I need to find a different way to phrase this, but this is just what I'm going with.

40:16 We can workshop it.

40:17 Yeah. It fits, though. A narcissist is going to have minions.

40:24 Oh, minions works. Yeah.

40:26 It just feels like, you know, icky calling somebody a minion.

40:30 I've heard it referred to as minions.

40:33 Okay.

40:35 Yes. Yeah.

40:37 I think that it's okay. It is what it is. It is what it is.

40:39 I feel like that's a good way to put it.

40:41 And even.

40:42 People that have been minions, I think, are okay with realizing I was a minion. Yeah. Yeah.

40:49 And, okay, so that's also part of the risk in calling out the behavior is there's usually a group of people that are protecting our narcissist. And these are the minions. They are still getting a lot from this narcissist because the narcissist usually holds some kind of key to what they want, whether that's admiration. whether that's a job. I think this happens a lot in situations where your job isn't like a dime a dozen. Like let's say you worked for, trying to think of a example of something like in our city where there's not that many of, let's say there's one ice cream shop in the city, right?

41:33 And you lived and breathed ice cream. So if you didn't work for this person, you couldn't work in ice cream unless you moved and left your family. So they hold this key. So you're going to be very bought into the idea of making sure that this person is still good in your in your mind. That makes sense.

41:52 So the minions will do a lot of the work of the narcissist because the narcissist have kind of like trained them. So that's why a lot of people like don't see the all roads kind of lead back to Rome because they're protecting the gates. That makes sense. So That's actually a good point that you even said that too, that people listening to this might have been a minion.

42:19 What would you want to say to somebody who has felt that way? I feel like I've been talking a lot.

42:24 I think that based on everything you've even said up till now, the key word would be manipulation.

42:32 Yeah.

42:33 And that stands out to me is when someone's been manipulated, you need to have so much grace for yourself. It's not like, you intentionally went out and behaved a certain way, you've been tricked. And I mean, is brainwashed a stretch? Like I would put it in that bunch because like when you're being manipulated, who knows what that person's being told to believe one thing and then they think they're doing this service kind of keeping everything going because that aha moment hasn't happened yet. And until that light bulb goes off, you're trucking along, like trying to do your best, do your job, keeping everything. It can be a well-oiled machine, right?

43:16 I mean, from what I'm taking away of what you said, if you were a minion or you're realizing you might be a minion, the important word is to have grace for yourself. Because, yeah, the trickery.

43:34 The trickery. The trickery. The trickery afoot.

43:36 Yes. The trickery afoot.

43:37 And I would also say if you're on the outside and you're no longer feeling that and you're getting frustrated with the people that are still minions, have grace for them too. Because I think it takes a lot to allow yourself to have the aha moment. Because if this person is holding the key and you know if I start to believe the reality– because a lot of this is like you– We still want to think good of this person. We want to think that they want the best for us. We don't want to think that they're the ones that's puppeteering all this chaos around me. It's not Susie Q that's making my life miserable. It's actually this person who has manipulated Susie Q. It takes a lot to say, oh, this isn't going to give me

44:23 what I want. Or, oh, like, I might have to give up this part of my dream or this part of whatever. to feel better or to be more rooted in reality. I think it's really hard to allow yourself to do that. I have that experience in relationships. When you want so bad, I mean, I have had to work really hard on, you don't always have to believe the best in everybody, Catherine, because I want to give people a million chances. It's like, oh, they can't, they couldn't have meant that. Or they're having a bad day or they're having a bad week or they have a good, they have to have a good heart. I believe everybody has a good heart. That's not true. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn. Not everybody has

45:09 a good heart. And to let go of that, you are letting go.

45:14 Of a lot.

45:17 So grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace for everybody involved. You're also allowed to be really frustrated and annoyed. Two can be true at the same time. And I think actually once you get out of it and once you're completely like, okay, I've seen the light. You just look at everything a little bit differently. It's the frustration isn't as heavy because you're like, oh, that sucks. They're still in it. And I wish I could pull them out, but I can't. Okay. So that's kind of what it looks like. It's going to be all encompassing. It's going to be chaotic. You'll find yourself probably when you're in the thick of this talking about this chaos all of the time. It will take over your life. If you

46:00 can't stop talking about the chaos at work, there might be something going on.

46:06 Right. Since we were just talking about minions before we move on, would you recommend minions if they have the aha moment and they realize their role? Can minions make amends with people?

46:22 You mean after they've... Not the narcissist. Okay. Make amends to other people in that.

46:28 Yeah.

46:28 Yeah.

46:29 I mean, would you recommend, I'm saying like how would someone, like if someone has an aha moment and they realize the role they played, is it disruptive to the ecosystem or how would a minion, could they go and just say, because again, protecting that ecosystem is important, but is there a way where without even mentioning the narcissist, like not even making it about them at all, but going to, if there's key people where they realize like, oh, could they go to those people and say, hey, I just have realized some things and my role in it and my behavior, but really keeping it, and this is sort of Al-Anon talk, but keeping it your side of the street, because I think where it can get messy is when

47:17 you try to bring in other things. And if you truly don't want to be disruptive or part of the problem, You just own your role and try to make amends or at least apologize and then they can do with it what they want. But would that be an okay thing to do? Because I'm just thinking once you realize if you're the minion, you're like, oh, dang. Part of that process of feeling better might being able to have some conversations with people. But if the other people try to bring in all the other stuff, be like, ah.

47:51 I'm not– this isn't about that because, again, you don't want to pop that whole can of worms.

47:56 That's very hard to do.

47:57 I know.

47:58 So that's– yeah, I'm glad you asked that question because when you're in it and when you are a minion, you might hurt people. Not because you're a malicious person but because you've been fed things that maybe weren't true.

48:15 It's like secondhand smoke. Yeah. So if you've got– I don't know. I'm thinking like if the narcissist is the smoker and you're close to it, you're naturally going to breathe it in and there's going to be some damage. Yeah. So, but you weren't the one actually holding the cigarette, but you might need to do some smoke damage control, but without bringing up the smoker, you would have to bring in all these different analogies. Make it make sense.

48:45 You would have, I think that is a, um, Wonderful thing to do when you are outside of it and to be like, oh my gosh, I was acting outside of my character and I want to clean up my side of the street.

48:56 Yes.

48:58 Only do that if you know you can hold the boundary with yourself because, oh my gosh, it feels so good to talk about this stuff with somebody. And if you like, like crack the can, like it's all going to come out because you guys are both sharing this experience and, and you might start like commiserating a little bit which is understandable. but also you have to be very careful especially if you're still in it you're still working still work so um it's one thing if you totally have cut off certain situations or.

49:30 You're at home venting about it to your sister yeah That's separate. I'm talking about in the ecosystem.

49:37 I would only do that if you know you can hold that boundary. And yeah, like you said, if that person starts kind of like baiting you, you have to go in there with a sentence stem of some sort that lets you just kind of create a boundary. Caution, caution, caution, because that would be very hard.

49:57 Right.

49:57 So let's talk about what to do to get out of this chaos. We've already covered the, like, you're most likely going to be the scapegoat if you're the one that has noticed this and other people aren't bringing this to you. So what I would say with that is, again, calling out this behavior is not going to be what is going to get you what you want. If you cannot leave, if you can't get a new job, if you can't quit, that's not an option, which is understandable. You're...

50:33 going to have to then learn how to just like play the game, how to stay in this and create boundaries, get your needs met, knowing that this person is still going to be doing this, which is so hard.

50:48 Yeah.

50:50 It's maddening. So you might need a therapist. You might need a person outside of work to talk about this with, but also You need to make sure that they have boundaries to when and if it gets too much for them. But you're going to need some kind of outlet because this is pervasive. I mean, you spend so much time at work, and a lot of these people are probably working more than 40 hours a week. You're going to need a support system of some kind. I would not recommend somebody just being like, okay, I'm going to pull myself up by my bootstraps, suck it up, and move forward.

51:28 You're going to need people who understand your situation. Again, this is going to be one of probably the most difficult. It should be. This should be one of the most difficult experiences that you have because this is not normal life. So if you do feel like this is very hard, I just want also people to hear that like it is by nature very, very hard. So know if that's the route I'm choosing, if that's the route I have to choose to, like if you can't leave your job. Also, is there a way for you to have like an this is my plan for now kind of thing? Like I have to stay in this for now, but I know this won't be my forever. Sometimes having some kind of out in the future and it not being infinite

52:20 allows people to like stay a little bit easier and lets people– Not that it's going to totally roll off your back, but let's kind of that stuff roll off your back a little easier because you're like, I'm not going to be in this forever. I have to survive until this point, then I can get out. So maybe having an exit plan. Now, while you don't have an exit plan, what were you saying earlier about documentation?

52:44 Well, I was saying it could come in handy. Well, my initial point in bringing it up was for your own data, just so that you can have a better understanding because we With anything in life, I forget things all the time. So I was just picturing someone listening and trying to put pieces together. And so I thought it might be helpful if they start to document, then they have something to go back and they have a date and a time, which that documentation will be helpful for your own data. But it also, if something were to happen at work with this narcissist, you now have plethora of data at your fingertips, which would be hard to come up with otherwise if you weren't documenting.

53:31 You know, what's really frustrating is there was this, I don't have it, but I do know this was a real thing. There was a New York Times article that was talking about people who were going to HR with complaints about narcissism in the workplace.

53:46 HR? Yeah. I thought you said ajar. And I was like, what's ajar?

53:52 They were going to human resources.

53:54 But they were going to HR.

53:55 HR, yes.

53:57 Yes, that I know.

53:58 With, you know what HR is? Yeah.

54:00 Okay.

54:01 They were going with complaints of narcissism in the workplace. And guess what their remedy was?

54:07 What?

54:08 What would you think that if that was, what is the normal thought in your head that like if somebody goes with complaints of narcissism in the workplace and toxic environment, What do you think that an HR would recommend? What's the normal thing to recommend?

54:22 Well, I'm thinking on HR's end, they're going to launch an investigation and then they're going to tell you to have some boundaries. I don't know what HR would tell you. They're going to tell you to document?

54:36 You would think that they would at least, yes.

54:37 Oh, is that where we're going? They're going to tell you to document?

54:40 Like me?

54:41 My HR?

54:41 So... I'm basically HR.

54:44 I'm HR. No, what would they say?

54:46 I don't know.

54:47 I've never gone to HR about anything.

54:49 I think all the things you said would be kind of a more normal response of like, we're going to investigate, please document and bring that to us. Okay. No, what they did is they provided counseling services to the people that complained.

55:03 Well, so they knew what they were dealing with.

55:05 So instead of tackling the problem, this is what I mean about the ecosystem. Instead of actually addressing the problem, they made you the problem and you need to fix yourself.

55:16 You need to go get counseling. But that's cool they provided it. I'm not going to lie.

55:21 Yeah, it's also super invalidating.

55:23 No, I get that part too. But also in.

55:25 The meantime, yes, it is.

55:27 Good to talk to somebody. It would be great if the response was, We're going to launch an investigation, start documenting things. In the meantime, if you want someone to talk to, here's a counselor.

55:39 That would be beautiful, but I don't think that's what they did.

55:51 If you want someone to talk to, here's a counselor. That would be.

55:54 Beautiful, but I don't think that's what they did. And that's the like... In some scenarios, and this has happened so often, and there isn't a solution. I think about people that make companies a lot of money in any industry. HR isn't going to be like, well, we'll fire the person that brings the most money in. We're going to fire the person that helps us actually pay everybody's salaries.

56:23 like whether it's sales or whatever it is, like that's not going to be the first thing they do. And not because they're bad people. I'm sure it's all a culmination of pressure, right? And so that's part of protecting the ecosystem that, okay, well, we can't really address this, but we have to like CYA.

56:43 I mean, I know we're talking narcissism here, but in plenty of, like you're saying, positions of power or people that make a lot of money or are forward-facing in the company, or they're a really good coach or athlete, you move the goalposts for certain people because it's like, oh, as a company, we have these standards and this is where we stand. But if it's that person, we're going to move this until something blows up and gets so massive and they get called out and they're forced to fire someone or let them go for their inappropriate behavior.

57:20 Think about, as you said that, like, The stuff that male athletes are able to get away with. Like every day I open up my phone and there's like another like charge of something. I'm like, if this was just like, you know, again, an accountant at this random firm, they'd be fired.

57:38 Right.

57:39 Unless they were, again, the forward-facing whatever. So that's something just to keep in mind because we started this talking about like a lot of these people are going to be your CEOs. They're going to be the top. So they're going to have a lot of protection because it's the trickle-down effect. So that's why I say calling it out isn't being the whistleblower. How often is the whistleblower like the one that gets kind of like stomped in the mud versus the actual person? So have grace with yourself.

58:14 Be honest with yourself. I think this is the biggest thing when it comes to, okay, what do I do? Like you said, should I apologize or make amends? Be honest with yourself. Like how much can you handle? Can you really set these boundaries up? Don't test yourself. Make things as easy as possible. If you don't have to go to certain events, don't go to them. But know that because you have the awareness and because you no longer are probably going to be shining as much light on this person, you are going to feel the trickle down effects of that. rigid boundaries are your best friend.

58:54 So also, I guess I'll say in that too, they might be rigid, but they also, these are very invisible.

59:00 Nobody has to know about them. Yeah.

59:02 This is probably known. I don't know why I felt the need to say it, but it's just, yeah, they don't have to be talked about with like anybody. They can be your own personal little invisible boundaries.

59:16 They probably won't be talked about with anybody at work. That's why it's important to have those other people.

59:20 And I feel like you go into work one day. Hello, I am coming in with new boundaries today. You're like dragging in your physical boundaries.

59:32 This part of the conversation, I always feel some guilt or at a loss because I don't have a pretty way to tie it up. So you have the awareness that this is happening. The things that you can do are leave. It's not an option for everybody. Or learn how to play the game and create boundaries. It's still going to be.

1:00:00 Terrible.

1:00:02 But it might feel a little lighter if you no longer are feeling that like ping pong ball effect. And I also want to let people know that most of the time, these people end up getting what is coming for them. Rarely is that ever going to be because you did something. So, and you might not know, you might not ever know if they get like the karma they deserve. You might not know because they're not going to tell you. They're never going to show you that they've been hurt or taken down or whatever. They're going to twist everything to make it look like, you know, unless they get like thrown in jail or something. And I guess you can't hide that. But I just want people to know that like the world does take care,

1:00:47 will take care of this. It might just not be on your timeline and you might not get to see it.

1:00:54 You just have to be patient.

1:00:57 Some radical acceptance.

1:00:59 Ooh, we love that. Yeah. And detach. We talk about detach with love, but in the workplace.

1:01:06 You might not have some love there.

1:01:07 Well, I mean, love in the workplace, that sounds weird. Yeah. So I guess it doesn't... It's not totally fitting, but detaching from what was.

1:01:15 With compassion instead of love, maybe.

1:01:17 Maybe. Or I guess I'm saying like you may have to detach... Detached with love isn't always romantic related. That might be with anybody that you have cared for or something that you loved. There might have been a season of your work, of your career, that may have been in the thick of the narcissism, but it still was a really sweet season. And you may have to grieve that that's not going to happen again the way that it did. Um, but you have to detach from hoping that it might, cause it's, it's just not like maybe one, I don't know what I'm gathering. Once you said, um, radical acceptance that it came to mind that there might be some things you have to detach from because you maybe were clinging to one way for so long. And

1:02:07 for a while it maybe worked until I did it. And you may have to detach from that, um.

1:02:15 The love bombing period of things is allowed to like, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So if you look back and you're like, oh, my gosh, my first year there was like the best year of my life. And I was killing it. It's still allowed to be a really good season. But now, you know, OK, but I have to actually click on reality for myself.

1:02:34 And because what people do, you hear this all the time is, well, they were like that once. So I know they can get back there. Like it's that it can get better kind of loop like the magical thinking. Or they've done it before. I know they have the ability to do it. That doesn't mean that they're going to because that doesn't mean that that was authentically who they are. Like, yeah, that guy was the most romantic, sweet, loving person that showed up on time and was nice to your family and da-da-da when you started dating him.

1:03:00 But he might have been doing that for his own gain rather than that's who he is. And so, yeah, he can do it. Doesn't mean he's going to. So that's something I would definitely recommend. write down somewhere so you can remember like I have to stop doing the magical thinking thing because I'm now I'm in reality I have to stay there um I didn't say this earlier but along with like the documentation part I would as much as you can if you're if your option is like I'm gonna play the game try not to be alone with this person if you can help it you can't always help it but it's The most manipulation you're going to get is when you're cornered somewhere by yourself and your defenses are going to be more down. So

1:03:46 you can't always help that. But I would try not to have any serious or intentional conversations by yourself. Okay.

1:03:54 Good to know. Yeah.

1:03:56 And there you have it.

1:03:57 There you have it. A little bit of narcissism in the workplace.

1:04:03 I just looked down at my notes and I just had to say this. the last sentence says, most likely this will not get better. And I think that that is- Well.

1:04:11 You even highlighted it in yellow. It's like, you really wanted that to stand out.

1:04:16 But that's a.

1:04:18 Little truth serum there. Like you're just being a therapist and you've walked alongside a lot of people that have come to you with their work things. And I'm sure that's something you have to tell clients.

1:04:31 Yeah. We can't, that's the magical thinking. Like this, it probably isn't going to be better. So what do I need to withstand what it is or find myself safety.

1:04:40 And I think that a way to take care of yourself is having a life outside of work and outside of that. And while talking about it at home with people might feel good for a minute, have boundaries around that too and give yourself a life outside of it. Find people that have nothing to do with any of that so you can have some separation. Have game nights because those bring joy.

1:05:07 And then you're focused on something else. You can't, in the middle of, like, an intense game, be like, oh, and then this other thing. I mean, you can, but you're going to bring the vibe down.

1:05:16 Yeah, no. Game nights are for good vibes only, and that's exactly what they bring. We do have our Hasbro moment. So Hasbro has been sponsoring the last several weeks, and we're on week six of highlighting a teacher, and this– episode was on the heavier side, dealing with narcissism at work. So I don't know any other way to roll into the Hasbro moment than to just jump right into the email that we got from one of you, which we've got two more weeks left. So if you want to highlight a teacher, you can send us an email. Hey, they're at feelingthingspodcast.com. We've gotten so many wonderful emails and I wish we could highlight every single teacher. and selecting them has been difficult.

1:06:10 It's hard.

1:06:12 We even got Chase involved because he's like, I'll help. And we loved this email that we got from someone named Carlin, so I'm going to read it now. Hello, Amy and Kat. I would love to nominate my husband, Brett Robertson, Mr. Robbie or Robertson to his students for your teacher recognition. My husband is an incredible fifth grade teacher at Foxwood Elementary in Houston, California. But I hope I said that right. Houston?

1:06:41 I don't know how else I would pronounce that.

1:06:43 Me neither. But just wanted to clarify that I didn't do that on purpose. But what makes him so special is that being an educator doesn't stop when he leaves his classroom. He truly has a heart for teaching, coaching, and helping kids grow into confident, kind, and capable young people. At his school, he continually takes on more than what is required of him. In addition to teaching his fifth grade class, he has stepped up to help provide PE for students because he believes kids deserve opportunities to be active, learn teamwork and have fun at school. Even with everything he gives to his students during the day, he still finds ways to give more of his time to kids in our community. He volunteers what little extra time he

1:07:24 has helping coach varsity baseball at our neighboring high school. And when he comes home, he is dad and coach all over again, helping coach our two young boys in soccer, baseball, and basketball. One of the things I admire most about him is that he doesn't do any of this for recognition. He does it because he genuinely loves kids and believes in the impact a good teacher or coach can have on a child's life. Whether he's helping a student understand something they've been struggling with, encouraging an athlete, or teaching our own boys about teamwork and perseverance, he puts his whole heart into it. As his wife, I get to see the time, energy, patience and love that happens behind the scenes. I'm incredibly proud of the teacher, coach, father

1:08:05 and role model he is. A $ 500 Walmart gift card for games and supplies for his classroom would be such an incredible way to recognize someone who spends so much of himself making school a better place for his students. I can't think of anyone more deserving. thank you for celebrating teachers and for giving me the opportunity to tell you a little bit about one who means so much to our family and our community. Many thanks, Carlin Robertson.

1:08:30 So Carlin, uh, we will be sending a $ 500 Walmart gift card. Thanks to Hasbro, uh, for your husband's classroom. Shout out Mr. Robbie, get some games and supplies. Uh, And we hope that that brings him and his students so much joy. And if you were looking for joy or moments to bring. joy into your home, Hasbro has so many games. So many. Plethora. Unlimited, some might say. Yeah.

1:09:10 I mean.

1:09:11 For all ages. All ages.

1:09:12 Yeah. You could bust out Guess Who as adults, but you can also play that one with kids. Yes. Jenga, Monopoly.

1:09:22 I mean, Trivia Pursuit is a child and adult game.

1:09:24 Yeah. Scrabble, Yahtzee, Hungry Hungry Hippo. Trouble.

1:09:30 It's fun getting into trouble. Do you remember that?

1:09:35 Yes. So there are so many and we are so grateful to Hasbro and for all of the amazing teachers.

1:09:42 Yeah.

1:09:43 And we hope you all have fun shopping at Walmart for your games and supplies. And We mostly hope if you're in a situation at work, like the stuff we went over today, that you find the help you need to have.

1:09:57 Nice. Look at that.

1:09:59 And then, most importantly, you have the day.

1:10:02 You need to have.

1:10:03 Bye.

1:10:03 Bye. Bye.