Technical Difficulties on Death Row (w. Corinna Barrett Lain)

0:06 Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote.

0:08 I'm Melissa Malbranch.

0:09 Today we're going to be talking about how beautiful Bollywood is, all the booties and heated rivalry, how kids are exhausting, are candid thoughts on transracialism, an interview with Karina Barrett Lane on capital punishment, and we're going to respond to your comments entails from the DMS, So stick around. Why was I Southern? I'm Paula Dean. Welcome Baya.

0:32 I just don't know. I'm calling you police.

0:38 Officer, officer, you can pull off that first, I think so one. I love it. I agree you described it as I.

0:47 Feel like this makes me look like somebody who supports NPR.

0:52 Yes, you've got your tone and.

0:54 Like I also support the.

0:55 Met Your name's Rosemary. You're from the Upper West Side. No, no, no, just you as yourself?

1:03 It's no, yeah, it's definitely me as myself. And I feel like my husband and I just flew in from the coast, the Ivory coast. I like that.

1:14 Did you get this best?

1:15 I love it. It was a it was a raffle, you know which raffle?

1:22 MPR. No was it at the.

1:25 It was at the end of the year.

1:27 Raffle Okay, yep, I know what you're talking about.

1:29 Yeah, and I wanted it.

1:32 I love it. Show everyone this best. I'm going to describe it for the people listening in their cars flying down the way.

1:38 Tie designer whose name I kid.

1:39 It's beautiful, It's got these little tassas, it's got a great one time I had like a it was clearly affiliated with an ethnicity sweater that I was looking at online and I sent it to you.

1:52 And what did I say?

1:53 And I said, can I pull this off?

1:56 And what did I say to you?

1:58 And I already knew the answer because you did this to me too, where you'll send me a vintage and you'll be like, can I get this? And I'm like, enough, okay, enough with the fir But we are each other's gut check. Yes, you're a friend.

2:09 Where it's like temperature check or can I not?

2:12 And you said, I don't know what culture it is, but I know that culture doesn't belong to you.

2:20 Bitch, I am.

2:23 And I was like that you were You said exactly what I was saying you were thinking, which is that you know what? That was the hesitation within me and I couldn't really articulate it, but you could. And I think that's beautiful.

2:34 You know what I love? I just think is so beautiful. Sorries, yes, are so beautiful. But I feel like that right, Like I can't wear that.

2:45 Like someone brought me back like one of those fully like knee length shirts from India, uh huh, And I was like, I don't know about walking down in the West Village wearing this. I don't know how I feel about that, but thank you for the gifts. Right, beautiful, But.

2:58 It's like it's one of those things like I I wonder if it's better for me to admire it on someone else than to because I don't I really don't want to be like a culture vulture, right, I don't want to appropriate, but I love to look at these are the things that you had that happened to you when you sort of scroll mindlessly on the internet. But like every now and then I'll fall upon like a Bollywood like an opening of something like a Bollywood award show and beautiful and they're just these women are like beautiful.

3:30 And on the veil is really cool.

3:35 So pretty, and then I'm like, oh, I wish that I could and then immediately I'm like, you can't, and that's okay. You can't and that's okay. You can appreciate it from a far I can appreciate it from afar.

3:47 Yeah, that makeup is always correct.

3:50 Always always, always beat the mug down, always eye the face. I love.

3:56 You need to send our makeup artists to India to learn their ways, because sometimes I like, we've had makeup artists on sets before where let's just say, painting Melissa's face and then a middle aged, bald headed super pale.

4:14 Do you think you're middle aged?

4:15 And thirty seven? Is that middle aged? Can we get it? Can we get it?

4:18 I don't know. So I'm almost I'm almost fifty four.

4:21 I don't know. I feel like, okay, are we both middle aged?

4:25 We can't be. I am too much older than you.

4:29 The middle of blood age.

4:31 I mean the other thing though, I would have to live to be at least one hundred and something for me to be middle aged.

4:36 But my grandmother, true, your grandmother lived.

4:38 My grandma would a long time, but I mean she lived a long time. But I wonder if we're.

4:43 Doing it based off age of grandparents. My grandparents died in their like forties, fifties and sixties, So like, yeah, I'm I'm an alder care now this is this is hospice for me? Yeah, Like if we're doing it based off that men, sure, Okay, I feel like forties is middle aged.

4:59 That's I mean that you are going to I mean I feel like middle age. We're thinking about living until.

5:05 Middle age is a state of mind. Okay, I think.

5:08 Okay, don't you feel middle aged?

5:11 Some days when I wake up in my hips heard when I step out of bed and both hips crack bang bang active shooter in my bedroom?

5:20 Middle aged? When I come across like the Grammys or the MTV Award are the same way is that person?

5:31 They're like, Chicken bang bang is going to be doing her opening number, and who is this? And they bring out a seventeen year old in a pair of heels.

5:40 Who's Chicka bang banging? By the way, speaking of banging, sorry, you know what, I finally.

5:47 Watched what I said speaking of my back's blown out in bed and I can't stand up. Let's talk about the gay sex show Heated Rival.

5:58 So here's here's what I feel like. Overall overall, it was really good.

6:04 Okay, Oh you've got a critique, be careful.

6:09 Here's the So my so, my friend Andrew Satizan is obsessed with this show, and she was like, you got to watch it. You gotta watch it, you gotta watch.

6:19 And text me because I am. I'm deep in the matrix on had Rival. Okay, I'm doing like scripture versus TV. I'm doing like that is not They're not staying true to the text. Scott is actually a verse top and we show him he doesn't even bottom once in the show. What does the Old Testament say? Like we have to go back there?

6:37 Are we read the books?

6:39 Yes?

6:40 All of them?

6:41 Yes? Okay legal legal scholar. Sure you've you've hired like the actual law professor.

6:47 So a few things. So, first of all, I lately I've been doing audio books more than actually reading books.

6:56 I like that because you can go for a walk.

6:58 Correct, you could do launch, and you could do whatever. The problem with audible or any kind of audio book is that if the actor or the reader is not good, then it ruins the experience. And I started to listen to it and I could not with that voice.

7:17 You have to get like an actual actor. Sometimes. Claire Danes narrated the Handmaid's Tale.

7:22 Yes, I read that, yes, and no, not the Handmaid's Tale, the Testament. Did she also do the Handmaid's Tale?

7:30 I think she did a book because I didn't listen to the Testament.

7:32 She didn't, Okay, I read, I listened to the test work to.

7:34 The TikTok comments on a video, I saw she did it, so I did, Yeah, she did, but she did.

7:43 She did the Testament. And what was cool about the Testament was that it is several actors reading, so Lydia was yeah, and I can't remember who else was in it, but Claire Danes was in it. It was so good.

8:00 I don't know anything about and Dowd, but there is this Twitter account called I think it's like hot and Out. I forget what it's called. There's some sort of and it's so good. I love.

8:17 So here's my feeling about Heated Rivalry. Really good. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I think what ends up happening? No, no, no, no, hear me out. When other people have told you you have to watch this show, it's the best show ever. So you go in it with these very high expectations, and I feel like it would have been better for me had I gone in blind having said that that is some good ship and the little guy who plays Ilia oh Connor story, Yes, that is the nicest ass.

8:59 I love us because Melissa. I love this wee because this is exactly what the Internet was saying four weeks ago.

9:07 I'm slow to it, I'm slow to it. I'm slow to it, but I'm true to it like it is. And you know the other thing is that at certain points, I'm watching this show and I am feeling very sad, right, I'm feeling so sad that there are still so many people who feel obligated to not be your authentic self, which makes me so sad because I also feel like when you are not yourself, you don't really show up in the world the way that you want to. And I also think that that constant level of frustration is also what can make you an asshole. Yes, right, because you are just constantly not able to be yourself.

9:53 Number of deal guys that I hooked up with in college hanging out of frat building windows, climbing down the gutter is unbelievable. They're all DL They're all hiding how the gay they are. They're all in the wrestling team because they just want to touch a butt. It is actually, it's so real.

10:13 Yeah.

10:14 So not to say that all wrestlers are gay balls, but a lot of especially people in sports, yeah, are a lot of people are super sports fans.

10:24 Yeah.

10:24 Like sometimes like the dads that love football, sometimes I'm like, you're a little bit too invested in that man in spandex. I'm sorry, not all, not all, not all, not all, but some and at least one, yea.

10:40 One out of five football dads might be gay.

10:43 Secretly give I overfilled this water way too much. Every single week we come to the studio. Immediately what happens. I spill my water in the green room yep. And then we come in here and I spill the water.

10:55 It's a dry set, and I'm looking forward to.

10:58 They're doing another installment right there. I mean I think, like.

11:01 I wonder if they're going to sort of bridgeton it.

11:04 Oh, yes, I think they are actually, yeah, because there there are a lot of actors on that show that got like two minutes of screen time and they really did make it with like paper paper and like hot glue guns and bubble gum wrappers. Yeah, because I was watching a thing and it was the wardrobe person was explaining how she pulled together the wardrobe and the stories she told with all the outfits. The dress that Rose wears at the club, it's like a shimmery dress that she wears. It's a piece of fabric held together with like paper, literally safety pin to this poor actress's body. Yeah, because the budget was like ten dollars, they made this with nothing.

11:46 Totally stupid thing. But a million years ago, there was a girl group called the Go Gos, right okay, And when they were they I think it was like either their first or their second album, and they had no money, no money for any for makeup, no money for clothing, and the album art is all of them in a towel.

12:08 Each of them are wearing a towel and they're all wearing face masks because they had no money for makeup, they had no money for budget. And I remember watching like a VH one behind the story where the person their producer or whoever it was, was just like, I have to return those to Macy's. Do not get any help of face cream on it?

12:30 So I mean, yeah, I return stuff all the time. Same, I love a good return. Yeah, brag got really mad at me because on Saturday, a huge box arrived at the house from I got a pair of boots for Christmas.

12:43 And I remember the boots story, Yeah, and I didn't.

12:46 I just like I couldn't figure out what to return them for. Yeah, the way, I exchanged them for a huge, oversized dog bed from this company that had like big fluffy dog beds for the dog this Jack need. No, he doesn't need anything. He was raised in the wile, I know.

13:04 But doesn't Jack sleep with you every night?

13:06 Yeah? He does. He has not put one little crusty toenail on that fucking bed. Yeah, and doesn't plan to. No, he walks right past it and gets in bed with us. Yeah, or he just sleeps on the floor.

13:19 Yeah. Same Arthur Weasley. You think he's in the bed that I bought him, although I'll never admits right electric blanket, which he.

13:26 Like, Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket.

13:28 I will not be judged by the likes of you. Arthur Weasley had an electric blanket. And and when he wants me to turn it on, he goes and he stands over and he looks at me and he meows. And because I am his bitch, I go over quickly and I turn it on, not.

13:45 Him training you.

13:47 He just kind of like looks at me like he's.

13:50 Like, time is money, baby, and you got a New York minute to turn the sucker on.

13:55 It takes a minute to heat up totally other things. So I feel like people who are on the of having kids are going to enjoy this story.

14:02 Right, Oh I'm sorry.

14:04 So remember you. We were texting and I was like, I'm exhausted.

14:08 You watched your nephew.

14:09 So my brother and sister in law went away for about five days and they were like, can you and Andre watch the baby? Of course, no problem. Let me tell you something, I am no longer the same person that. And he is actually an exceptionally good I'm sure.

14:32 Yeah, he's so cute.

14:33 But like so speaking of like training me, he now, so he's like nine months old and he now has realized that there's a camera in his in his bed, and he was now turning around and looking at us, and he's just like, TikTok, TikTok, motherfucker, come get me.

14:52 He knows that when he looks at the camera someone.

14:54 Will he's looking. He was love it so much, but and.

15:00 I'm still figuring out the doorbell.

15:01 Yeah. No, Amari, love of my life is looking directly into the camera and he's just like, let's stop playing these games.

15:10 Like and follow share if you agree.

15:13 Absolutely had the best book. It is like nineteen and a half pounds Thanksgiving Turkey ran me into the ground. Did I send you the picture of Andre passed out? No, no, I'm going to send it.

15:25 To send it to me. I want to see it.

15:26 Because he was like and Andre like had a kid and.

15:30 Raided the kid.

15:31 Yeah.

15:32 I feel that way when I even just like hanging out with my friend's kids for a couple of hours and they're there yea with Brad and I leave and we're like an overdrive.

15:39 Yeah it's a lot, I know, but it was. It was a good time. But I feel like I was saying this to all my friends and family who.

15:45 My heart goes out to. Anyone with a child.

15:47 Cats off, man, God, that is a less and the constant blowout.

15:53 Yeah, yo, yo, that's not for me. Actually, you know what. I went to my friend's house and she has three kids. Okay, love, they're so fun. How to blast? Yeah, And she said to me, she was like, yeah, my husband was was was like, I just love how Michael and Brad show up to our house. We have dinner, we hang out, and then they just like kind of they'll let us know an hour before they come over that they're coming, and we're just gonna and they'll join us for dinner.

16:15 They live like not too far from us. Yeah, and then they and then we hang out, We do a puzzle, We have dinner, We order take out. They always bring like a five. We always stop at Billy's Bakery and bring dessert. And then they just like leave, yeah, And and she was like yeah to her husband, she was like, yeah, they don't have kids, they can do that. They can just like get in a tab and come up town and hang out with us for a couple of hours and then leave.

16:39 And it's the best. It's so much world.

16:41 Yeah, it's so much fun.

16:43 Alleah.

16:44 But she was like, yeah, honey, they don't have kids, they can do that. That is sweet, sweet freedom.

16:51 A child free life.

16:52 Yeah. I know, highly recommend it anyone thinking about having kids.

16:58 I mean, think about that shit hard, but it's.

17:02 Forever, Okay, bt BTS for brief recess. Someone in our studio I can't say who is expecting a child. It's so this whole segment has been just them.

17:17 I was just like, we're going to talk about something that I think that you especially are going to follow.

17:21 I didn't even piece together.

17:23 He was like, Okay, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna and we're gonna put it in the in the YouTube a picture of Andre.

17:30 But I stand by my statements.

17:32 Andre passed the fuck out.

17:34 I'm falling asleep just thinking about it. You know what, let's take a break. I gotta take a step out of this. And I don't want to make a cool this is your algorithm is showing Melissa, what is happening in your feet this week? What's the tea? What's the shade?

17:50 So I've been trying really hard to disengage from the plastic surgery stuff because it's been like it's like fucking it's like starting to fuck with me for real, right, But I've gone to another place. I've got to darker, darker places. So are you familiar with this notion of people being trans racial, meaning that.

18:17 You you're like Chinese and black?

18:19 No? No, no, no, no no. No. Let's just say, for example.

18:23 I guess I shouldn't just start like wildly guess.

18:28 Because I do think that the term Transrachel can be confusing because sometimes, when let's say, a white family adopts a Chinese baby, they call that a transracial adoption. But that's not what I'm talking what are you talking about? I'm talking about people who, let's say, do you remember that story about that woman, that white woman, Rachel Dozal.

18:49 Who trans Rachel Rachel Dolis. Well, people like that, right, who feel inside that.

18:58 They're like inside like they were born one race like Rachel does all.

19:03 I cannot get? Am I about to be canceled for something I can't get?

19:08 So here's here's the thing, right, So I don't know where I fell into this, but I started like really like doing a deep dive. And then there's like this black woman. There's this black woman who's doing the same thing. I forget her name, Donna something or another, who was born an African American woman or at least a black woman, who has now gone through all the stages. She's bleached her skin, she bleached her hair, she's got blue contact lenses and is living her life as a white one.

19:41 Now here is my question, right, why I've been asking myself this question, why why does this not sit well with me? And I and I really can't pinpoint it because if some if I were to find out that somebody is a trans person.

20:02 I know, I was just thinking, like.

20:04 My feeling is good for you live your truth, be who you're supposed to be.

20:09 I know, it's like an identity politics Sudok. He correct, because it's like if we are saying that people who believe inside that they were born into the wrong thing, right, it's actually the same sort of correct logic kind of.

20:22 But I was again so falling inside.

20:24 I can feel the trans people typing in the comments, and.

20:29 You know, and I want to be both understanding and respectful.

20:33 Yeah, like these are like siblings in my community.

20:36 I'm like, I feel very confused and also conflicted by it, right, because I definitely feel like trans people are who they say they are, right, end of story.

20:46 Frankly right, I feel like thirty years ago people were having the same conversation about trans people. But like for me, like my gut reaction of like Rachel dolezol is actually why that's razy?

21:00 And I'm asking myself, right, why does that make me feel uncomfortable?

21:06 Right?

21:07 And I don't have an answer, and this is not meant to be disrespectful or dismissive of anybody of any community, but like it leaves me feeling like conflicted.

21:19 Yeah, Like I'm just kind of like yeah, yeah, it is actually like a Gordian nod, like okay, so what is bothering me about this?

21:31 Right?

21:31 For me, I'm like, this is the same thing about your best It's like a white person appropriating a fucking culture, right dolis All did to her political career. What like that is a white person trying to take another culture? Right. It's the same with me sending you the sweater and being like I want to wear the sweater.

21:50 Well, but the difference between you sending me a photo of this sweater and the same thing of me looking at and admiring sorry, right, is like we're looking at this. I'm also understanding that like people are not clothing options, right, we understand that, right, thank you, But we're but we're looking at these items and we're just like asking ourselves, is it okay if I wear this or no? Right?

22:18 Because again, you want to be respectful. I don't. This is this feels different.

22:22 I guess I feel like Rachel dolezol is like the wrong entree into this conversation, because like the notion that someone feels like they are born another person period and then wants to like live that authentic life whether you're trans or transracial, transgender or transracial, I guess is like those those are the same sort of conversation. Right to say this, right, I can't find a way that we would discuss it differently.

22:49 Right, nor can I.

22:52 But which means then therefore I must I guess I have to support this, right, So I don't.

23:00 I guess I'm just do I just do I I guess I need to learn more?

23:03 Is like where I'm Yeah, and.

23:05 Again I've been I've been googling, I've been like really looking into this.

23:09 And I guess this is literally like day one. I've literally never never heard of this except for Rachel dolls All, who is a punchline, like right, and so maybe that is like, but.

23:18 You know what, though, I will say I mean again, I there were a couple of things. There were so many. There were many, many things about her that that upset me and bothered me personally. There was one story that she told she was talking about her hair transition, right and she was talking about her kitchen. Now, for white people who don't know what that is, your kitchen is the back part of your hair, and that's usually where the texture of your hair is the coarsest, usually not always, but usually. And for this white woman who was born with straight hair to be standing in her front and standing in front of other people of color talking about the difficulty of working through that.

24:06 Kitchen, wait, wait, wait, she's white pretending to be black. Rachel Doze, Oh my god, sorry, I thought we're talking about this person on TikTok.

24:13 No no, no, no, no. Rich is rich And And I remember when I was transitioning my hair, the hard time that my family gave me, and like how I thought I was And she was doing that, and I felt like, who are you to talk about to talk about this thing because it didn't happen to you, right it, This did not happen to you, and you are a culture vulture, right yeah, hmmm, do you see what I'm saying?

24:41 Guess I'm I guess. The deviation in my mind is like, Okay, so we've got and I'm going to try and break this down as like an analytical attorney. So we've got the transgender conversation, right, which is like anyone who wants to shift their gender identity, yes on wherever on the spectrum. Yes, live your truth.

25:01 Correct.

25:02 I run into issue with transracial conversation. Yes, when it is white becoming black or white becoming anything else.

25:12 Okay.

25:13 That is where I'm like a little bit held up because I've been conditioned to say that is cultural appropriation or like blackface, right, that's someone pretending to be another race, right, Okay, Right, I don't know, I don't know, or just like an extreme version of right.

25:30 And I mean, but and there's this other woman whose name I can't remember right now, but who, like I said, this black woman who is now living her life as a white woman. Yeah, and I have so many feelings.

25:44 I was going to say, I don't really know if I have anything to say about that, but like I'm sure you do.

25:50 I mean, I just have feelings about it, right, Like what did something happen? Was there a message that you heard that makes you hate yourself? But if somebody were to talk to me about a transperson.

26:10 I would never think of So that's why I'm a little hung up on correct. So okay, so like putting my message out there to the world of what I think about this. I think I need to learn more because I don't think this is my Literally am finding out about this live on the air. This is the first time I've ever heard of this, except for Rachel Dollasow, which I highly judge and condemn what she did because she just pretended to be black to get ahead in life.

26:36 I think, So, is that what she did? I think I'm pretty sure that was how I read it.

26:41 But does that but does she think that's what she did? Because it seemed to me that the other thing about her was that she was She had stopped speaking to her white family altogether. And if you were to look at the work that she did, she she either worked for or did something with the NAACP. She did good, good work for them.

27:04 She's a president of the NAACP.

27:07 For a chapter one chapters. Yeah. So, and she has black children. I think she had children with an actual black man and loves the culture according to her, right.

27:23 I don't do you see do you see?

27:25 Do you see the trouble that I'm having?

27:27 Yeah? But if we do that, then, like Hilario Baldwin is also correct, we have to be like we love that she is pretending she can't pronounce cucumber.

27:36 Well okay, but but that I think, you know, when she was how you say, like she did that ship? Yeah, yeah, that I feel like is is different. But why do I feel like it's.

27:47 Been in her life? I think in her mind she's like living her life as a Spanish person because in Massachusetts, uh huh.

27:53 It's so we are living in such strange and I don't And again, I'm excited, I'm excited, and I'm genuinely not making fun of anybody, No I am. I'm really trying to understand and also trying to understand myself.

28:10 I know, because you and I have had these conversations where it's like you're a very proud black Haitian woman for sure, and we've talked a lot about like the way black women truth their hair, what your hair journey's den what that's been like for you, and like how wrapped up in that whole sort of like sushi role of emotions is sometimes like self loathing and internalized racism.

28:40 So again I think that what the trouble that I've been having is why does this not sit well with me? And I don't understand why that is.

28:51 I guess just like again, still hearing this first time, maybe it's that we've just really been conditioned to think about it this way of like if you, or at least for me, like a white liberal and a big city, I've been conditioned that when I hear person pretending to be other race, we inhale and we get nervous. Right, someone someone putting that on is We're not supposed to be cool with that, right, And I'm not saying I still think we are not supposed to be cool with that, But it sounds like maybe this is like a special version.

29:28 I don't know, Michael, I don't know.

29:30 I mean I think because I do see a lot of like connections to the transgender conversation. How do we separate the.

29:37 But I've done again, because I've been doing like this dive on it, I've seen where transgendered people are like, don't compare that interesting?

29:48 Okay?

29:49 But but but again, but I think for you know, as many trans people as there are, there are different trans people who feel differently about their own journey. Right, and again, I'm going to believe the person that I'm talking to them and believe what the people are saying about themselves, right, I don't know.

30:07 I am going to watch like a lot of breakdowns of this on TikTok I will say that I am deeply disappointed in you. Why for not sending it to me sooner? Because I want to watch, you know, I love staying up until four in the morning. I know, deep just doom scrolling, going down crazy rabbit holes. I want to see that shit I'm watching. Meanwhile, I'm watching ear hair removal videos at the Turkish barber shop. I could be watching this and really learning and growing as a person. How fucking dare you?

30:40 Sorry? You know? Okay, Well, here's the silly thing that I've been watching it. I've also fallen into pedicure TikTok oh.

30:47 I don't want to see someone getting miss little, miss Piggy, Miss roast Beef worked on. I don't want to see that. Send me the identity politics. I want to get worked up into a ladder.

30:57 I know. But serious, it's been like I'm like really really very conflicted.

31:04 Well this is what but like I want to I want to get into like that and like learn about it because it really is a culture. It sounds like someone's experienced that I'm not hearing about learning about, and I want to be on the forefront of that ship. I want to know because my whole feed, I mean mine, mine gets like really doom scrolly with like the news and the headlines like I am. I've noticed, especially since the ice attacks of Minneapolis, that I've become a part of the conversation where I'm commenting on it. I'm also a part of the echo chamber a little bit, and my whole sort of algorithm has become very much ultraliberal anti ice.

31:47 Yeah, I mean same, is this weird thing that fell into.

31:52 I also have like burkeing bags in Dubai and then it's unboxing at burking bets. But now the Dubai bar bag girlies are literally in fucking bunkers, yes, getting bombed. Yeah, I know, isn't that crazy. I was watching last night and it was the Birken bag girl. She came up and she was in a bunker with all her purses.

32:13 She took her purses with her. Stop it, stop it. No she didn't. I mean, I'm not unless the purse is in the the persons are in the bunker at all times.

32:23 I will I can either confirm her deny that she carried them down there. I have not. I did not see her lug all the purses down there. But yeah, here, here's where we are in modern warfare.

32:35 Okay, that bothers me. There are so many things to go on the record about this. I can say that, like the sort of the world around you is coming to an end, and your first course of accident is save the bags.

32:53 Let's say I've been in I've been in near Missus before where I'm like, like, you get in a car accident. Or I was on a train once where there was like I honestly don't even know what happened, like a trans transistort transistor transistor like exploded or something, and there was like smoke and a fire and there like there's a big explosion on a train. And it was with my college boyfriend. And I ran and I.

33:15 Left you left him.

33:19 Up, the little fuck herself up. I ran for her.

33:23 But oh god, Jerry sein the Seinfeld where there's like a fire and George and George is at a birthday party and he pushes the kids out of the way.

33:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy's so aboud. So we got in a fight about it after you sure you love me? We broke up soon last last. Yeah. Okay, well, I'm really excited. I want to get into some of these headlines. But our guest is here and we've got an interesting conversation today.

33:57 I'm looking forward to talking to him.

33:58 Yeah. Should I tease it a little bit afterwards? Okay, yeah, you don't have to whisper theirly, you could do it liter, she whispers directly into her fucking mike. All right, we'll be right back. So welcome back to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foot. We're going to be talking today about lethal injection.

34:18 Today we have just a light hearted conversation.

34:22 Easy, greasy.

34:24 We're here with Karina Barrett Lane. She's a professor of law at the University of Richmond State Law, and she's one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty. She's a former sergeant in the US military and the author of the book Secrets of the Killing State, The Untold Story of Lethal injection. Please welcome Karina Lane. Thank you.

34:44 I'm so happy to be here.

34:45 And you just finished a book tour.

34:47 Right, A crazy book tour I did that was the Oh my goodness, it was the adventure of a lifetime. So my sister and I shout out to Mandy. We went in her van hashtag van life and she drove every mile of this and it was thirteen thousand miles.

35:08 Wow we did.

35:10 Yeah, we did fifty seven events in just under eighty days.

35:14 Wow.

35:14 How was the relationship at the end of EVM? I feel either important questions to ask, Right, that's a question. You must have a sister to ask that question. A little I have a younger brother.

35:24 Okay, well, you know it was fantastic, but I do have to say at the very very end, we ended the tour in Oklahoma City and I had three events in Oklahoma City and she's driving me to one of the events and she said, you know, I didn't think we were going to make it. I didn't think we were going to act. And I was like, what do you mean you didn't think we were going to make it?

35:44 Like what did?

35:45 What did you think was going to happen? And she said, I don't really know, but I didn't think i'd be driving you at the end. I thought You're just.

35:51 Going to drop me off alongside the road or something, abandon you.

35:54 But it was great, good, yeah, good, and people I you know, after that experience, I just feel like there's such a goodness in the world. And at the beginning, I was pretty nervous because, you know, two women in a van driving around the Deep South saying, let's not kill people. What could go wrong?

36:14 Right?

36:16 But people were really kind and open minded, and I found that so many people they just they didn't know. And almost every single one of those events turned into a larger conversation about the death penalty. And I welcome that here.

36:32 Yeah, well, I was just going to say, like, they're such a friendly, warm, bubbly, infectious person to pick such like an intense topic. I think when we were talking about having you on the show, I think you and I get similarly sort of categorized of like dealing with a really crazy subject matter and still like being somewhat of an optimistic person. I think it is like a really unique, strange persona to have in the world. And I just am just so curious what led you to this topic, Like was there a catalyst for this in your life? Because people ask me all the time, like how did you get into immigration law? Like what was that for you? From an immigrant family? And I just want to hear like, I'm sure it wasn't a to B.

37:21 I'm sure it was mercuous.

37:23 It's not.

37:24 And I have to say kudos to you because you know, everything you say about me is really applies to you ten times because you're seeing people like You're seeing actual people right, Like you're you're a frontline provider, yeah, whereas I'm a researcher. Now there is a story you know, behind that that I think it would be even harder to see, you know, cruelty and brutality. Yeah, ye see their face.

37:51 Yeah we can a. I wouldn't have it any other way. Be I'm like, who would I be if I didn't do something? Like if I have the skills I have and I'm able to help, who would I be? And see I'm like, oh, yes, it's awful to be around this, but I can actually do something and I have like the tools to do it. So it's kind of like I've chosen a space where I actually have a lot of agency, which is unusual. I think a lot of people who are service providers they can help in like one small way, but I'm like, oh, there's actual relief here that I can seek. And the other avenue for someone who is combative, angry, a loud mouth. I get in a lot of fights. My desk at school was in the hallway. I've got an older sister. We fought

38:38 like cats and dogs. The other pathway for me, aside from the courtroom, was a problem was probably or the drunk guy at the bar starting fights. So like it's like, oh, I actually like productive path for that. But yeah, that's how I sort of categorize it in my mind. But I'm still also like, yeah, sorry, we don't have to talk about me.

39:02 We brought it's so good.

39:04 Well, I will tell you I am a former prosecutor. Cool, and I'm a legal historian, and so what brought me to the death penalty in the first instance is I was doing I did two legal history pieces on the death penalty, and those were more about, you know, the conditions under which the Supreme Court protects unpopular minorities. Right, just remember sort of you know high school civics where it's like, you know, the Supreme Court is this protector of unpopular minorities from overreaching tyrannical majorities.

39:35 And we don't we laugh at that now, but at the time, I.

39:38 Was like, yeah, very much. Is how we came up.

39:42 Yeah, no one's even saying it.

39:43 Yes, I mean even when I was in law school, it was like, oh, the Supreme Court, like it's loosely tied to politics and who's empower in the presidency and maybe they sometimes wait to retire until there's a favorable president in their political part.

40:04 No, you can't say, I mean, it's it would be flying in the face of what we're looking at, right, what was every day? That's right?

40:11 Well, I when I was doing the second death penalty piece, I came across this case in Texas. It's a real case, was from two thousand you might have heard of it, the Birding case. And in that particular case, the lawyer fell asleep during trial. It was a capital trial. And I was so shocked because the lawyer didn't say, like, I wasn't asleep, I was resting my eyes or it was like really concentrating. The lawyer said, yeah, I fell asleep.

40:40 Yeah it was.

40:40 During trial, but it wasn't an important part.

40:43 Yeah.

40:43 Oh, And I remember being like, pretty sure, it's all an important no matter what, but especially when your life is at stake, and then you know what the court said, So there's a little line I still my students read it where the court said.

41:05 The constitution says you're entitled to an attorney, it doesn't say they have to be awake.

41:11 Wow.

41:11 And that was this moment where I just thought, you know, good people on both sides of the aisle would look.

41:19 At that and say, I thought, rageous, right, Like, I can't.

41:23 Be killing people if you have sleeping lawyers and drunk lawyers and prosecutors hiding evidence. And so that was the moment when I said, I need to look at this closer. And so I've been researching and writing about the death penalty for eighteen years now, and so that's like the death penalty more generally. And then as for this book, I didn't really so much as choose it as it chose me. But I had a research question because that's what we do. And my question was why are sates so breathtakingly bad at executions by lethal injection? Like why am I seeing three hour long executions and.

42:03 Two hour long exit?

42:04 And you've been to executions?

42:06 No I have not. I've not been asked, and I'm actually quite thankful for that.

42:11 But you.

42:13 Would try not to deal in hypotheticals. But what would you do. I've thought about this a lot attitude.

42:19 I've thought about it a lot. I don't know, because I have to tell you, just researching this and hearing the media stories and now I know members of the media, and I know capital defenders, and so I hear their stories and I feel like I'm stretched as a researcher, like.

42:37 This your boundary.

42:40 I just I'm an EmPATH and knowing what I know, just seeing it, even if it looked peaceful, I have to tell you, the second drug is a paralytic. And it's not just a paralytic. It's a muscle relaxing, so it relaxes the muscles in your face, so it can be a them that way.

42:58 Yeah.

42:58 Right. So anyway, I had this question of you know, I'm seeing autopsies with eighteen puncture wounds and people waking up in the midst of their own execution, and I just thought, you know, I don't understand. We know how to put down our beloved pets. I know it's very clinical, yes, but I'm a researcher, you know.

43:19 And it was like, let's really get into that.

43:21 We know how physician assistant suicide works, so why are they so bad at this, Like, there's the whole death penalty thing, and we could talk about that, but then there's.

43:31 That's not what people is, not what that is today?

43:33 Yes, what has been the sort of like response to that question in your research? Like, I mean, don't give away the punch the heart of the book, but like, what well have you sort of found? Like was there any discoveries that you made in your research?

43:47 Goodness?

43:48 What has the public sort of reach been?

43:51 Yeah? So, I mean the answer ended up as a book, the entire book to answer it, and it's anywhere from I thought there was science behind this thing. I really did. I thought, surely someone didn't just make this up off the top of their head. Someone literally made this up off the top of their head. That actually happened.

44:15 The specific way the means in which we execute people.

44:18 Yeah, so lethal injection came to be in nineteen seventy seven. And actually, just to contextualize it, it was really no accident that it happened in seventy seven, because the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty in seventy two, brought it back in seventy six, and by nineteen seventy seven the country had not seen an execution in ten years.

44:42 Oh wow.

44:42 So you had Gary Gilmore just do it. That's firing squad, and everyone was like freaked out, and legislators around the country said, we need to do something else. The country hasn't seen an execution. They're going to be super squeamish about the electric chair gasing people. And a federal court had found a First Amendment right to televise executions at the time. Now it wouldn't last, but nobody could have known that. And so you had legislators talking about, we can't have an electrocution in someone's living room. Yes, right, And so it was this big push of okay, well what about death by drugs? And that would look nicer speaking of the pets. And in Oklahoma, the legislators are active asking their their doctors, their personal doctors, the state

45:36 medical association. Nobody wanted to play, and so they turned to the state medical examiner, the coroner. This guy named yeah, this guy named Jay Chapman. He was a doctor, but he referred to himself as an expert in dead bodies, but not in how to get them that way.

45:54 Oh god, Yeah, this.

45:56 Is one of those This is one of those things where it is just kind of like an absolute clusterfuck, and then it creates legal precedent, and then we still have it today because no one can get rid of it.

46:06 It's such a cluster Oh my god. And so they said, well you help, and he said sure, and he literally just like made it up. And I found an interview of him later and they said, well, how did you come up with the three drugs because not a single one of them is what we used for pets, Like, where did you even get that? And he literally said, I didn't do any research. Oh okay, he said, I just thought about what might be useful, okay. And that's the protocol that we use for the first thirty five years of lethal injection.

46:39 And are we still using that today.

46:41 Yes.

46:41 The first drug it isn't made anymore. That was sodium theopental, and states have replaced that for drug with even worse drugs. So some states are using the three drug protocol, some drig some states are using a one drug protocol.

46:55 So let me ask you this, Right, you know, if we and again understand I mean that people and animals are not the same, right, but if we do know how to put down a cat, a dog, a horse, whatever. And I've been in the room when I've had to put down a pad and it does it does come across as a very peaceful. They just sort of like drift off to sleep and it's and it's over pretty quickly. Yes, why are we not using those same methods to execute people?

47:29 It's a great question. Yeah, So some states are still using a three drig protocol. That is how strong the allure of a paralytic is something that like it's a get out of jail free card, right, whatever's going on underneath there, it's going to look peaceful. So some states are like, love that not leave matter. Some states, though, I have turned to the one drug pentobarbitol, which is what we use on pets. That's also what we use for physician assistant suicide. And so one might say, okay, then why is everything wrong? And part of the reason for that is that it's actually not the same drugs.

48:10 So drug manufacturers have put contractual agreements and tracking mechanisms on their drugs. They don't want their drugs ind for this.

48:20 The pr on that, oh, it's so bad, it's so bad.

48:24 Like I always think of Pfizer, whose motto is life is Our life's work. Yeah, right, and all of the others too. But and so what's happened is the states have to go to these compounding pharmacies and they're getting a compounded version of the drug. Well, these are little mom and pop shops and compounding a sterile injectable, they are not set up for that at all. In fact, compounding sterile injectables is literally called high risk compounding. That's the industry term for it because it's a mess. And so you've got that whole issue and we haven't even really talked about what compounding pharmacies are willing to do this and it's all for cash.

49:15 I was under the table.

49:17 And then also here's another one, like in the animal euthanasia context, you're using veterinarians that are trained. Do you know who is pushing the drugs?

49:29 I was going to say, I can't imagine a medical provider. They've taken a hippocratic oak. Correct is going to be issuing these? Is it like the warden? Is it? No, it's an officer.

49:43 Non medical prison guards.

49:45 Yeah, I was going to say.

49:46 And they're they're not doing like they're doing it from another room, from this little anti chamber through seven feet of tubing. So in the animal euthanasia context, it's bedside correct, right, so you can watch, Yes, it's not it's through seven feet of tubing. And if you ask them, which they have been asked, how do you know how fast to push the plunger because if you push it too fast, you're gonna blow the vein. All of these bad things happen, And they say we do it by feel. In the medical.

50:18 Profession, I don't know.

50:19 Yeah, yeah, there is no feel right feed of two being.

50:22 Yeah, but we see these headlines all the time of this state couldn't fulfill an execution because they were unable to source the drug, or they ran out of the drug, or no one could make it. Like, we see those headlines all the time. And I know that your book really focuses on the ways in which states are moving away from capital punishment, right, that there is a decline in jurors, in judges who are.

50:52 Convicting, and you feel like people don't have the appetite for it.

50:56 That it's maybe less. So there's a recent headline about Luigi Mangioni trial just this week where he is no longer the judge has ruled that he is not going to qualify for capital punishment. I just think it's it's an interesting time where, right, the ways in which the means in which the execution is being provided I guess done performed is at odds with sort of where we where it came from, where this started, right, and the modern day appetite for it. I know, as like you said, a provider in the judiciary, how wrong we are, how many flaws there are in a criminal trial, in a judgment, in a ruling, in that appeal, in the lawyer, in whatever, how many opportunities there are for error? And that's with

51:49 people's lives at stake, and in a capital punishment trial where there are charges where someone could be charged with capital punishment, that is literally what is being litigated on that day. So what do we do? We're all at odds with this subject, right, I mean, and then we're also thinking about justice for the victims of whoever this person comitted a crime, right, Like it really is an ethical ball of wax. And how do we, in like a twenty first century context, put the piece this all together?

52:20 Like have you just personally we don't even have to talk about your book, but like you as a person driver around the country with your sister talking about this, like so awesome hearing from these many communities in the South that still perform executions, Like what do we fucking do with this? I've just like left with more questions than answer.

52:40 Sometimes you've packed a lot into No, it's so good, you're just like my brain.

52:45 But like, let's just like talk about it.

52:47 Let's talk about it. So I think one thing that one piece of information that people don't really understand is this error rate and actual innocence. And that's something that we can all get behind, as in, we shouldn't be executing innocent people. I don't really know of any actually Scalia once said this is a cost of doing business.

53:12 So I am aside, but most people would say that's absolutely unacceptable. And so one of the things to think about is that we've executed slightly more than sixteen hundred people in the modern era. So since yeah, since nineteen seventy six, slightly over sixteen hundred, sixteen and maybe sixteen forty something like that. And in that period of time, we've had slightly more than two hundred exonerations. I was going to say, so, And so when you think about that picture for every eight people that we kill. And you know, I call it secrets of the Killing State because we are killing and the autopsy actually says homicide for cause of death.

54:04 Wow does it? It?

54:05 Sure does? This is killing. We just like to use these nice, pretty words. But you know, for every eight people we kill, there's one person that the state says, oh, sorry, we got that way with that. You know, that is an incredible statistic, eight to one. And the National Academy of Sciences came out and was looking at death row and all of the errors, and they did the super fancy regression analysis that was you know, peer reviewed at the highest levels, and they said, a conservative estimate is four percent of the people on death row right now are factually innocent. That's one in every twenty five, you know.

54:47 And part of the problem, of course, is that we're you know, they're all saying it's me right, and so like, this is a difficult problem. But just knowing that and then the other piece, which goes into the victims side that you were talking about, is, aside from actual innocence, there's this error rate. And the error rate nationally is between I mean, it's between fifty and seventy percent of all death sentences are overturned on appeal Indiana is seventy percent, oh my gosh, seven out of dead. But even the lower is fifty percent. And the top two reasons are grossly ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct.

55:33 Wow. And so those violation.

55:35 Greaty violations up the wazoo. And so you know, those are again, those are things that I think, you know, good people on both sides of the aisle would say, well, we can't, right, we can't be doing that. And the thing is, it takes a long time to find those errors because those eyes, you know, are off record errors or you're not going to find those in the transcript.

56:00 You have to look behind.

56:02 I also think a lot of a lot of people are out of sight, out of mind, right, absolutely, people who are on death row, out of sight, out of mind. They are incarcerated. And from the perspective of a state legislator, that's someone who murdered someone and is a bad person and therefore it's not worthy of my time attention. Energy.

56:22 Yeah, So tell us what the Brady Brady violation.

56:27 Let's talk, Yes, yes, So Brady violation is when a prosecutor hides or doesn't disclose evidence that is favorable to the defense and material as in there's a reasonable probability that it would have made a difference. So this is not again, this is not misplaced paper clips. This is stuff that it's not like.

56:53 A detail about the victim's hair color. It's like serious exonerating evidence that prosecutors have intentionally withheld.

57:03 Absolutely right, you know. And we had one of these cases that went up to the Supreme Court this year, well last year, twenty twenty five. So this guy was Richard Glossop and I talked about him in the book because he had a lethal injection challenge. But bottom line is he was convicted of capital murder. He was never the killer. It was always this co defendant named Sneed.

57:31 And it was a terrible I mean, all murders are terrible, but you know, this was a bludgeoning to death of a hotel manager and Sneed did it. The Commonwealth never said anybody but Sneed did it. They never said Glossop did it. But Sneed said, Gossip paid me to do it. Okay, So the prosecution goes to Glossop and says, we'll give you life without parole if you'll testify against him, we'll go for death for him. Glossop said, I had nothing to do with this, so I'm not taking that. Then they go to Snead and say we'll give you life without parole if you'll testify against Glossops. Need says, you got it. Glossop goes to trial, he gets convicted, He gets sentenced to death. First trial gets overturned ineffective assistance

58:18 of council. He's been maintaining his innocence, and you know, he would have been executed after the Supreme Court greenlighted, you know, the lethal injection protocol, except Oklahoma injected the wrong drug into the guy before him, and then they tried to cover that up. And so can you believe this?

58:41 Michael the warden, the director, the people from the AG's office, they get called before a grand jury, they get investigated.

58:50 Right, this is.

58:56 Crazy town that you have the you know.

58:58 People from president that are warden.

59:01 Yeah. So he's just waiting. Meanwhile, he's like, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. Finally, some people hire a law firm finally to say like, can you please look into this itself? You know, we're going, well, that's what a court should do. But okay, fine, they do an investigation and they come out and say there's no way, like there's serious, serious problems with this. Also, the prosecutor buried evidence.

59:32 So when this comes out, the state I don't know, reluctantly hands over seven boxes of material that shows they they solicited perjury. There's emails saying, you know, there's some problems with this testimony. We need to get to him before.

59:52 He takes these serious crimes. Did my job wrong? And that our yea, these are prosecutors facing jail time for these crimes.

1:00:03 Yeah.

1:00:04 And you know, when all of this comes out, the Attorney General of the State of Oklahoma confesses error constitutional error before the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals, and the Court of Criminal Peals says, sorry, you missed the deadline habeas procedural default. There's nothing we can do.

1:00:24 Oh my god.

1:00:25 Goes up to the Supreme Court and they.

1:00:27 Love doing They love doing that, by the way. They love just hitting with like, you know, oh, the deadline. Sorry, it's you know what I They don't even think look discuss the subject of the case. It's oh, they look at the first sheet. Deadlines past, you're.

1:00:41 Out of here and he's actually innocent.

1:00:44 Oh yeah, can we sorry, can we just explain to everybody what habeas is?

1:00:47 Oh? Yeah, yes.

1:00:49 So there's trials and there's the direct appeals that you have, and then after that there's this system of habeas corpus. There's a state habeas, there's federal habeas. But the bottom line is, at that point, it's essentially a civil suit, okay, that you are suing the warden for wrongfully holding you.

1:01:12 Okay. So, and it's just a way.

1:01:13 This is something that's actually interesting come up recently in the bond proceedings and immigration court because under certain laws, through the Trump administration and through a few federal decisions, basically many migrants are being held without bond or parole options for extended periods of time. So, and these are the headlines you see out of Dilly, Texas children children. Yeah, And so it's the same habeas claims are being invoked by these migrants and their attorneys in federal court. Habeas corpus claims for people who are not being afforded bond opportunities, as migrants held in detention, because you're supposed to get a day in court, you're supposed to go in front of a judge say hey, I'm here on asylum. I

1:02:01 should be released on But the new Trump administration laws are sort of still getting worked out through the court system, and as a sort of band aid to that, lawyers are now submitting habeas claims. So that's sort of how it's hit in my world.

1:02:13 Okay, so let's uplift. Let me let me ask you this. So for the average person, Yeah, why is this important? Why should we care about this? Because especially because I can imagine, I can imagine that there are people who were saying for the folks who are guilty, who have committed some heinous crime, and there is a family who is missing a loved one or several loved ones. Who cares? Yeah?

1:02:40 Right, I mean such a fair quest.

1:02:42 Who cares? Because you know, when they were murdering my whatever, they didn't care about that. Why should I care about that person and what their death looks like?

1:02:52 Yeah? I mean that's such a fair question. And I have to say, as a former prosecutor, Yeah, I was going to ask. I think about the victims family all the time. I think about them all the time. And interestingly, I met a number of people on this book tour who were surviving family members of slain victims, and one of the things that they said, and then I need to answer your question, but you know, one of the things that they said was, you know, we're told this is going to give us closure, and it's actually the opposite of closure.

1:03:27 I can see that.

1:03:28 We're waiting twenty thirty years. Mississippi executed a guy this summer on death row for fifty years. Yeah, you know, and they've been strung along this whole time. So but to your question, you know, one thing I would say is people always talk about, well, they deserved it. They deserved it, So why do I care? And I think it's important to remember that, you know, one question is whether the person deserves death. That's only one half of the asia. And the other half of the equation is did the state do what it needs to do to take that to deserve to take that life? Right, Like, you can't just grab people you deserve it, and so like there are things that the state has to do.

1:04:18 And so really this book is about is about that question. And I always think, you know, the untold story of lethal injection is really a story about all of the ways that the state cannot be trusted to take life and all of the ways they have covered it up. But you know, there's a whole other question and this is slightly different. But I think in there of like why should we care how they die? Right because they might have tortured someone? And to that, I always think, you know, well, why don't we rape rapists?

1:04:56 You know?

1:04:57 And I'm not saying like why don't mean lets no no.

1:05:00 No, no, no, right no, But I kept thinking when you were talking an eye for an eye? Is that is? That? Is it? And like I am posing that question, Like I I have like a very unique opinion on this of I see all the errors that happen in court, and I'm like with that, I don't think we should be adjudicating people's lives because I see all the errors, so knowing that it's one in eight are exonerated, so for me, I'm like, if there's even a one percent chance, that's still too much. That is my opinion. But I think it's like a conversation people need to have with themselves, right because when you were talking about like family members coming to your book tourm being like I didn't get the closure. I thought I wanted. I my first thought

1:05:48 was like you know, and I'm a narcissist, so like we're always like, this isn't what I would This is how I would think about it, And it's like, hey, would that be the closure that I want or need? But also like who does that make me right? Who do I want to be right? Is it? Would it? And I'm putting myself in someone else's shoes And I've never been in this situation before, but I'm like, if I were this hawk who wanted an execution for a loved one who was murdered, would that be the closure I want? What does that say about me? And is there a story of forgiveness here? Like I can't put myself in these shoes? And like when you were talking about your book, I was like the one word I kept think about was accountability and of the state. Yeah,

1:06:38 how do we hold the state accountable? And that's a lot of what I do as a defense attorney is like a lot of the time I know my client did it, and all the evidence says that my job is to stand there and just make sure the constitutional rights aren't violated and that the state is doing what they're supposed to do and we're gonna we'll go down swinging.

1:06:56 But you're going down usually right if it's if it's a foregone conclusion, it's over. I'm there to make sure your Eighth Amendment violation, your Fifth Amendment, your Fourth Amendment first second. Like that is my that's my gig. It's not about what you see on TV, me pulling a rabbit out of a hat, getting this person off with like a loophole and they're running down the street and they're getting it, and it's it's not about that. It's about accountability, and I think people don't understand that right, police accountability, prosecute, prosecutorial, and now state when it comes to lethal injection. So that is my sort of explosion rant about this.

1:07:33 No, but you know, I think it's so important to recognize too that family surviving family members, they're gonna it's I think it's totally understandable and natural to say I want this person.

1:07:47 Like you, I'll do it myself.

1:07:50 Yes, that's why we don't have family members prosecuting people. That's why we have what we call independent prosecutors. Because what you want, it's not wrong, it's just not necessarily what's good for society? Right, But you know, to your question Melissa of like, what if they did torture? And I go back to, well, why don't we rape rapists?

1:08:12 Why don't we burn down arsenous homes? And it's not because they don't deserve it in some talionic eye for an eye way, it's because we're a civilized society and we actually we could get even with them if we did that, but we can't stoop that low. They're the bad guys, so my definition, they can't be the standard for how a civilized society should treat the worst of rights members.

1:08:41 And it doesn't undo the thing that happened right at the end of the day. Unfortunately, whether this person is put to death or not, your loved one is gone at the end of the day, your house has been burnt down, right, and doing those things doesn't undo what the heinous act that happened to your family, to your friends, to your family. And again to your point, I think it maybe trying to remove yourself a little bit and look at what it says about society at large.

1:09:18 Yeah, I think so. So do you want to plug your book really quick? You can get it anywhere you get books straight to camera. This is your camera right here. Let's here. We'll give you a copy.

1:09:29 Thank you.

1:09:30 Give a quick plug of the book. Your van's waiting outside. You have to go.

1:09:34 This is the book.

1:09:35 You should read it. I think every person should know what the state is doing in their name.

1:09:40 Yeah, I think that's true. We should.

1:09:42 It's funded with your money. It's your tax dollars.

1:09:45 And you know it's not just about torturous executions and made up science. It's also about smuggling drugs across the border. Yes, I'm taking fifteen thousand dollars in cash, putting it in a suitcase.

1:09:57 Okay, well I told you don't use my name, but you.

1:10:01 Know some of this stuff, I mean, it's criminal.

1:10:04 And I'll be a quote for the next book.

1:10:07 Okay, sounds good.

1:10:11 Is a great conversation.

1:10:12 Thank you. We'll be right back with Tales from the DMS. Welcome back to brief. Re says, this is Tales from the DAMS. We're going to talk about all the crazy, filthy, nasty, wild, wicked, sloody things you send us straight to my DM.

1:10:27 You are very excited about that.

1:10:28 I know when I get the little view photo message from someone on Instagram like.

1:10:39 I love a good salacious comment.

1:10:42 We've gotten crazy comment. We've got some awesome comments on our podcast. I thought it would be fun. Every episode we're going to read a comment from Apple or Spotify or YouTube on tales from the Damns. We're going to start adding that, and so add your comments to the show, review the show, show and Melissa's going to read them.

1:11:02 Go for it. Gives give us a good one. I have not heard any of.

1:11:05 These so from the Millennial Failure. Love that. This is what the Millennial Failure says, your honor. This podcast is critically underwatched on YouTube. These are highly intelligent, hilarious, engaging, and incredibly attractive host. If you're not watching, you're missing out. Wow, thank you the Millennial soone.

1:11:27 My husband incredibly attractive. I didn't need it to just be like a compliment past, but I'll take it. Oh, well, what I'll take it.

1:11:34 I will take that every time. From one from Do Another one from episode one twelve, Don Lemon Slash Epstein from at Karen twenty seven point thirty. Karen says, I also had a nun teach us sex.

1:11:57 Wait a good one. Everyone talking about Action Park. Do you remember that episode. Of course, that was the one people were coming up to me in the club drink in hand. I was at Action Park. This comment, the comment is from disabled Danny ninety six.

1:12:17 Oh, by the way, shout out to disabled Danny ninety six, who comments on everything on YouTube.

1:12:23 Get in my actual dance Dan. He says, everyone that designed the slides were on cocaine. It was the eighties.

1:12:30 It was the eighties.

1:12:31 Action Park. Okay, CJ rolled the clip. We've got the tail from the dam. We got to question. Someone called in with a question for us, just a.

1:12:40 Quick question, like what advice would you give to somebody who's interested, like very basically interested in immigration law, but doesn't necessarily have the time to commit to pursuing a full degree. I seem to be stuck in a place that wants to do more.

1:12:57 I get this question a lot about how non lawyers can get involved. They want to go to law school, they don't have time. My answer is always find the nonprofit in your area that's doing this work, because the nonprofits really are the backbone. This person. I did a little research. I think they're from the Bay Area, and I found a few nonprofits that I know there Immigration Institute of the Bay Area is a great one. They are service providers. So is Larraza and that is a San Francisco Mission District legacy organization. So wherever you are, and even if you're not in the Bay Area, there's usually a nearby nonprofit doing that work. And you know your skill set better than I do. So if you're really good at communications, are you're really good at social media,

1:13:43 or you're really good at writing, like talk to the nonprofit. Maybe there's a job there, Maybe there's volunteer hours there where you can get involved and do that work with your specific skill set. I say it all the time. So many people support my work and just for me to get to the courtroom had to be the translator, right, someone is the stenographer, someone is the researcher. Like, there's so many people behind me and the work. And then I get all the credit.

1:14:09 And we're going to put the links to the nonprofits that Michael mentioned in our show notes that you have.

1:14:15 Access to it. I'll give this to CJ right now.

1:14:17 And everybody, Like I always say, while Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer.

1:14:24 You hire me.

1:14:28 You said that really in a really gross.

1:14:30 Way unless you, oh, I said, I did say it like a lady of the night.

1:14:33 Why is it a lady of the night that you hire me? It could be a person of the night.

1:14:37 It's true. I've been of the night. Thank you for watching Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foot, I am Melissa malbranch I'll see you in court, not me. I'll see you in the streets, probably king a car. This has been an exactly right production recorded at iHeart Studio, posted by me Michael Foot and.

1:15:02 Me Melissa Albrant. Our producer is CJ. Ferroni.

1:15:04 This episode was edited by Nicholas Galucci.

1:15:07 Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Cootner.

1:15:11 Our theme song was composed by Tom Brifogel with artwork from Charlotte Delarue Manessa Lilac with photography by Brad Obono.

1:15:18 Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1:15:23 You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy Department or on TikTok at Michael Foot.

1:15:28 And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Albrant got legal questions.

1:15:32 Reach out at brief Recess at exactlyrightmedia dot com. Listen to brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and of course we're a podcasts with video. Search for brief Recess on YouTube