Make Miss America Great Again | EP 1

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the press, and thank you for your attendance today.

On July 23rd, 1984, Vanessa Williams made history when she became the first Miss America to give back her crown.

As you all know, the Miss America pageant has asked for me to resign as Miss America 1984.

I wasn't alive during her reign and infamous resignation, but I certainly grew up knowing who Vanessa Williams is.

And our new Miss.

America is Vanessa Williams, Miss New York.

She was the first Black Miss America, an achievement that meant a lot at the time of her win. It wasn't until later that I found out her reign ended in scandal. Two months before the end of her Miss America year, Vanessa Williams held a press conference at the Sheraton Center in Manhattan. She stood in front of a sea of photographers and journalists.

First, I want to tell you about the circumstances surrounding my activity during the summer of 1982 that has been the center of this tragic and painful controversy.

When Vanessa Williams was a 19-year-old college student looking for a summer job, she answered an ad from an agency looking for models. They took a few portfolio shots of her. Ultimately, she landed a job as a makeup.

Artist for the agency. But her boss, Tom Chappelle, really wanted to get her in front of the camera.

Several times during the month of July, Tom Chappelle had approached me about posing nude. Based on his persistence, I was ultimately persuaded to do a session.

A 19-year-old Vanessa Williams agreed to be photographed nude. I'm talking about full frontal nudity. On top of that, she was posing with another woman, and they weren't just holding hands.

Although Vanessa said that part wasn't her idea.

There were all kinds of suggestive props and harnesses, but her boss told her it would all be shot in silhouette.

He said that I could not be recognized and that my posing for this experiment would be completely incompetent. So I agreed.

Vanessa finished her summer job and never talked to her boss, the photographer Tom Chappelle, again.

The following year, she began competing in pageants. She won Miss Syracuse, then Miss New York.

And a few months later, Vanessa Williams was crowned the first Black Miss America. Then, 10 months into her reign, she got a call. Those photos she'd taken a few years prior?

Surprise, surprise!

The photographer hadn't kept his verbal promises that the photos would be confidential. Instead, Tom Chappelle sold them to Penthouse Magazine for $ 50, 000. That's $ 160, 000 today.

After viewing the photos, I was enraged, and I felt a deep sense of personal embarrassment.

A month after the press conference, Vanessa Williams found herself on the cover of Penthouse Magazine with the headline, Miss America, Oh.

God, She's Nude.

Vanessa said she never consented to the publication of these photos. Vanessa Williams wasn't just a young woman who'd been taken advantage of by a slick photographer.

She was Miss America.

And Miss America certainly wasn't the type of girl who would end up in Penthouse magazine nude. Of course, she was the type of girl who would walk across the stage in a skimpy bikini, but you get it. It's a delicate line. Up to that point, for almost 60 years, The Miss America organization had been a representation of the ideal American woman.

She was a.

Girl next door, a scholar, a virgin. And the first Black Miss America had tarnished that image.

The pageant board unanimously voted for her resignation, and they only gave her 72 hours to step down. So with just a few weeks left until the end of her historic reign, Vanessa Williams had to go.

Therefore, I do officially relinquish my title as Miss America 1984 to the Miss America pageant.

For most of its history, the Miss America pageant said its goal was to empower young women. And look, the scholarships, sponsorship money, and opportunities the Miss Americas get really make a great case. But when you look at the pageant's response to the Vanessa Williams scandal, it really makes you question their whole empowerment thing.

Because why was she no longer worthy of being empowered? It might be because Miss America isn't a person. She's an ideal.

Up until Vanessa Williams' win, Miss America was white. She was well-spoken and aware of political and social inequities, but she didn't dare talk about their root causes. She was always smiling, always positive, and she never made the kinds of mistakes that would shame the Miss America brand. Of course, the Miss America organization didn't invent these narrow ideals of womanhood, but they certainly perpetuated them. And when Vanessa Williams stepped outside of the bounds, she's the.

One who got punished.

Vanessa Williams' Miss America downfall shows us that the business model of finding a quote-unquote perfect woman is inherently cursed. Or at least that's what I thought this podcast was going to be about. Miss America's complicated history and the pageant's relationship with American femininity. Then I started reporting and I stepped into a breaking news story that could be the dramatic crash and burn of this American institution. It's a legal battle that's unfolding live. So we're going to tell you the story of this fiasco, the scandal that might be Miss America's last. And along the way, we'll meet the community that sustained the pageant for decades, explore how the pageant influenced and reflected American culture, and then

we'll try to figure out what we'd really lose if the crown goes up in flames. Miss America, I ask.

You to rise.

Go down and meet your subjects as I now sing you your song.

I'm Bridget Armstrong. This is Season 2, The Curse of Miss America. Your willing subjects are out there waiting for you. The new Miss America, here she comes!

If you listened to our first season about America's Next Top Model, a show that influenced and traumatized a lot of millennials, you might be wondering, why Miss America?

Is that even still a thing? Well, let me tell you, it is.

And behind the tiaras, airbrushed makeup, and perfectly coiffed hair, there's a volcano about to erupt. And it's been building up for over 100 years. Back when the country still had a monoculture, the Miss America pageant had a chokehold on your grandma's generation, the baby boomers, and Gen X.

But millennials are probably the.

Last generation to pay attention to pageants at all. When I was a kid, I used to watch the Miss America pageant with my grandma. And even in the 90s, it was past its heyday. But for us, it was still the kind of appointment television we tuned into every year. We would pick our favorite girl, who was inevitably the black girl who made it the furthest, or in the case where there were two black girls, the prettiest or most talented one, or the one from a state we'd actually been to. At some point in the evening, I was struck through the house as my grandma announced me.

Here comes Miss Bridget Armstrong from North Carolina. She's wearing pink pajamas with the matching barrettes. When she grows up, she wants to be a lawyer or a model or an actress or whatever it changed to that year. But after a certain point, my grandma and I stopped watching Miss America together.

Maybe I aged out of our tradition.

I know my grandma certainly found Dancing with the Stars a lot more interesting. And while I knew the Miss America pageant still existed, it wasn't something I thought about anymore. It seemed like most of the country forgot about it too. But the culture Miss America created is still.

Very much alive.

Even if you haven't watched a beauty pageant in 20 years or ever, pageant culture is everywhere.

The red carpet is a pageant. I mean, have you seen the Met Gala?

Pageantry and American politics have also become interwoven. Sarah Palin was Miss Alaska runner-up. Erica Kirk was Miss Arizona. Hell, before Donald Trump was the president and before he was a reality TV star, he got a lot of attention for owning a rival pageant, Miss USA. Even if you think you've opted out of pageants, in a way, they're an inescapable part of American life.

Pageantry is in our movies.

Miss Congeniality, the rom-com that cemented Sandra Bullock as an early 2000s icon, it's all about a pageant.

Describe.

Your perfect date.

I'd have to say April 25th because it's not too hot, not too cold.

All you need is a light jacket.

There are literally Oscar-winning movies about pageants. You know, actually, there is a message from Cindy on the Machine.

Something about Little Mrs.

Sunshine. Sunshine.

What?

Little Miss Sunshine?

Yeah.

What?

Pageantry is in reality TV. Think about The Bachelor.

It's a bunch of women standing around in evening gowns, waiting to hear their names called to go to the next round.

We are all going into the rose ceremony. It's really nerve-wracking just because there's a chance I'm going to go home.

I mean, when you think about it, the Miss America pageant was an early form of reality TV itself. And Miss America, with her sponsorships and platforms, is the OG influencer.

Miss America, 1957. Her favorite beauty soap.

With so many personal appearances, I'm constantly changing costumes and makeup. That's why I really need a mild, gentle soap like Kamei.

Kamei.

It's truly the soap of beautiful women.

The soap that says I love you to your skin.

Miss America sold every kind of product you can imagine, from.

Swimsuits and razors to war bonds.

The Miss America pageant started in 1921 as a way to extend summer tourism in Atlantic City past Labor Day weekend. In the 20s, women in bathing suits lined up for an old man dressed as King Neptune to give them the Golden Mermaid Award. It was a rinky-dink marketing scheme, but not for long, because American culture and pageantry fit like a girl in a tight, frequent dress. When the Miss America pageant first premiered on television in 1954, 27 million people tuned in. That's more than half of the households that owned TVs at the time.

The Miss America pageant, brought to you by Philco Corporation. Now, ladies and gentlemen, 19-year-old Lee Ann Merriweather of San Francisco, California.

At its peak, Miss America was one of the country's most beloved institutions. People tuned in every year, like the Super Bowl, and the pageant launched some real stars.

Ironically, probably the most famous Miss America is still Vanessa Williams.

After she gave up her crown in 1984, she went on to have an incredibly successful career.

I used to hear her song all the time in the car with my mom. She was Terry from Soul Food.

Oh, fuck the family! The family?

I left the family in my house.

You know what?

The family fucked my husband.

And Wilhelmina from Ugly Betty.

Under those gaping pores and caveman eyebrows, I thought you were smart.

Back in 1984, Vanessa Williams' nude photos might have been a blemish on Miss America's lily-white reputation.

But once she became a star, Miss America changed their tune.

They finally figured out it's not a good look to be at odds with your most famous winner. In 2015, the Miss America organization finally decided to make a stunning public apology to Vanessa. Then-CEO Sam Haskell took center stage and made a show of the organization's remorse.

On behalf of today's organization, I want to apologize to you.

And to your mother, Miss Helen Williams.

I want to apologize for anything that was said or done.

That made you feel any less.

The Miss America you are and the Miss America.

You always will be.

The audience's applause went on for what seemed like forever. The man delivering this message, Sam Haskell, had spearheaded a new era of Miss America.

It was a shiny, inclusive, every woman era.

A lot of people saw Sam Haskell as a Miss America savior. He was a Hollywood agent who'd served as the chairman of the Miss America board. For a few years in the early 2000s, the pageant aired on cable networks. Sam is credited with getting it back on primetime network TV. He brought the glitter and glamour back. But only two years after apologizing to Vanessa Williams, Sam Haskell's private emails about Miss America contestants leaked to the press. It turns out He wasn't the women's empowerment champion he presented himself to be.

CEO Sam Haskell resigned Saturday from the New Jersey-based organization the day after he was suspended by the board. The resignations following publication of Sam Haskell's leaked emails in the Huffington Post sent back in 2014, they included alleged sexist, crude, and demeaning comments about former Miss America contestants.

Haskell apparently referenced a former winner and somebody she was dating, writing, quote, OMG, she is huge and gross. Why does he want that? Other exchanges are too vulgar to broadcast.

And it wasn't just Sam.

A lot of these emails are between Sam and Miss America board and staff members. The Miss Americas they were supposed to be empowering, they were calling those girls fat, sluts, and cunts.

And it wasn't just one email.

It was three years worth of back and forth communications, all in writing. One of the women Sam Haskell explicitly targeted was Mallory Hagan, Miss America 2013.

Here we go.

Ladies and gentlemen, your new Miss America is.

Miss New York.

How do you feel about having a statue of yourself in Atlantic City?

Oh, my goodness.

I feel very honored.

That's Mallory from a 2013 docuseries called Pageant Confidential. Since that aired, Mallory's seen a different side of Miss America.

For the longest time, I fought for this program because I thought that the value was there for the women who participate. I don't think that that value exists for them anymore.

Mallory was one of the last Miss Americas who actually was a national figure. Mallory wore the crown in 2013, during the early popularity of Instagram. She was in fact the first Miss America to run the organization's Instagram account.

During her reign.

In 2013, social media influencers were just becoming a thing. They were appealing because they were relatable, just like Mallory. She's of course beautiful, but when you talk to her, it feels like you're talking to a friend, no matter who you are. We started our first conversation comparing our horoscopes.

I think the Saturn return is actually, I was getting a bunch of stuff that was like, Capricorn, this is about to be your time.

And I was like, finally, Jesus.

Mallory has blonde hair and blue eyes. She's beautiful, like an elevated white girl next door. She looks like a Miss America. She also won the title during the rise of the body positivity movement. She's slightly curvier than some of the other women who'd won in the years before her. Now, I use that term curvy very loosely because by all measures, Mallory was thin, but she wasn't real thin.

When I first talked to Mallory, I was worried that as a pageant queen, she.

Might be a little fake, a little too rehearsed.

But she immediately put me at ease.

Oh, my God.

Did you hear that? That was my stomach.

I did, but I didn't want to say anything.

That was my stomach. My stomach is making crazy noises.

It seems like Mallory was destined to be Miss America.

My mom has told this story, but when she found out she was pregnant with me, she was 18. And some people in her family were like, don't do that. And she actually said out loud, as corroborated by my grandmother, she was like, I don't know, just like, what if I have Miss America in my belly?

Mallory came from humble beginnings. She grew up in Opelika, Alabama. Pageants were kind of a family side hobby.

My grandmother was a volunteer for the Miss Tennessee pageant, and my mom volunteered in the Miss Alabama program as a choreographer and helping with local competitions.

When Mallory was a kid, she was a dancer. Her grandma and mom owned dance studios. As a preteen, her talent caught the eye of a pageant organizer.

A family friend actually asked if I would like to participate in the very first ever Miss Alabama's teen competition, the year that they introduced the teen program to Miss America. And so that was my first toe dip into Miss America and being on those stages. And I got third runner up. And so I was like, huh, all right, let me do that again.

After that, Mallory caught the pageant bug. She genuinely loved competing.

So I was freshly 13 years old and proceeded to compete at the teen level for four years, where I was third runner-up, first runner-up, second runner-up.

The road to the Miss America title wasn't smooth for Mallory. First of all, her family wasn't rich, and being a pageant girl isn't cheap. She and her mom had to get creative.

I was not walking around in a $ 4, 000 dress like many of the other people participating. I was walking around in a $ 200 dress that my mom had jazzed up with a bunch of rhinestones. Both of my parents sacrificed a lot.

At first, Mallory was a bit of an underdog. She always got close, but could never seem to nab the crown.

I was very much a bridesmaid, never the bride.

She competed in the Miss Teen Alabama competition four times. She was runner-up three of those times, but she never won. When she became of age, she competed in Miss Alabama.

She didn't even make it to the finals. She eventually moved to New York.

She got a job teaching at a dance studio and picked up some shifts as a waitress.

She thought her pageant days were behind her.

But like many other people in this program, I think I'm a masochist.

After being in New York for two years, she was eligible to compete in that state. So she entered the Miss Brooklyn pageant with a little push from her mom.

We were watching Miss America one year and she was like, this is so silly. Like, you should be competing. This is a way for you to pay for school if you want to go back to school. Just go do it. And also, Miss Brooklyn is in three weeks, so I'll send you your stuff.

Mallory won Miss Brooklyn 2010.

I went to Miss New York that summer and I was first runner up to my now best friend.

Mallory entered the Miss Manhattan competition the next year and the same thing happened. She won the local title and got runner up at Miss New York. In the Miss America org, you can compete at the local level as many times as you want until you either win a state title or age out at 28. But as my family likes to say, nothing beats a failure but a try.

The year that I won Miss New York, I almost didn't go back. And my mom was like, get out of here.

Yes, you are. She's like, what if you win? And I was like, but I'm not. And she was like, but what if you do?

Mallory competed in the pageant one more time. And in 2012, she finally won Miss New York.

I'm an all types of dancer, but I solely did tap for Miss America because no one else did. And I was always like, how can I stand out? And then, fun fact, the year I won Miss America had the most tap dancers ever in.

The history of Of this stupid competition.

So our top five, our top five my year had three tap dancers in it, which was just unheard of.

For the national title, Mallory tap danced to James Brown's.

Get Up Off of That Thing.

And this isn't the tap dancing from your fifth grade recital. First of all, she has on a black two-piece crop top bedazzled dance costume. Every tap matches the beat. She's jumping, turning, and gliding across the floor. And baby, the facial expressions tell a story. Mallory left it all on the stage.

And the rest is history.

23-year-old Mallory Hagan, Miss New York, defeated Miss South Carolina and Miss Oklahoma to be crowned Miss America.

Even the women who lost to Mallory that year loved her. Here's Alan Rose, Miss DC 2012, who competed against Mallory for the Miss America title.

She's just one of those people who you spend 30 seconds with her and you might not know who she is, but she's somebody special. And if you're going to lose to somebody, it might as well be Mallory Hagan. She shoots from the hip. She knows who she is. And she just walked away with it.

She just.

snuck in and stole the hearts of everybody. And looking back, I mean, of course she did.

Mallory loved being Miss America.

In one of our first conversations, we watched some clips together from ABC's Pageant Confidential.

Mallory, great to meet you.

I'm Mallory.

Well, I haven't seen this maybe since then, so this will be interesting.

I played this for Mallory because I wanted to refresh her memory on that.

Chapter of her life.

I thought it would be a lighthearted way to reminisce about her time as Miss America. But a few minutes in, during a scene from one of her appearances on the road, Mallory got emotional.

I don't know where that just came from.

What are you thinking about what's going through your mind as you're watching this?

I think I just got really sad because I actually did very much enjoy it.

Like I had a lot of fun. Sorry. Sorry.

And it just seems like so much has clouded that.

Enjoyment, you know?

For Mallory, being Miss America was a dream, but it didn't last long. We'll get into that after the break.

Miss America.

Mallory Hagan had a magical time as Miss America.

I just got to go experience a lot of really cool things. President Obama's inauguration, pretty exciting. The Kentucky Derby, the Grand Prix, these just major events that happen around the country and get to experience the towns and cities around them is really neat.

In 2013, she started the Miss America Instagram account and ran it herself. She intuitively knew that authenticity would be her greatest tool. Here's a clip from Mallory on ABC's Pageant Confidential.

It's important for girls to see when I'm working out and not wearing makeup.

I think that I should look like Mallory.

Every day, she had an itinerary of events to attend.

It is nonstop, though. You know, you're in a hotel, and if you have a day off, you're just in the hotel. You don't get to go home. So your clothes are shipped to you. You're doing laundry on the road or you're buying new undergarments everywhere you go. You're at galas with, you know, the who's who of America.

You're at ESPN events. You're singing the national anthem at NBA games. I mean, it just creates a lot of relational dynamics, both with your family and friends and any partner you might have that are kind of interesting to navigate.

And yeah, it is kind of lonely.

Even though Mallory was separated from her loved ones on the road, she wasn't alone. She had someone from the organization who traveled with her everywhere. It was that person's job to keep an eye on Mallory, to make sure she wasn't doing anything or even associating with anyone that would tarnish the organization's reputation. And tarnishing the organization's reputation could mean doing things most 24-year-old women do.

When I was Miss America, there were a lot of what I would call silly rules.

No male visitors in your hotel room.

No public displays of any type of relationship or affection. If you leave the hotel, you're supposed to ask permission. Someone's supposed to go with you. Yeah, just a lot of like, If you were 17, it would make sense. But when you're 24 and you've been living by yourself, you're like, I'm not asking permission to leave the hotel.

I'm a grown person.

Even still, Mallory finished the job and handed the crown off to Nina Davalori, the first Indian American winner. On the surface, it seemed like Mallory had a good relationship with the organization. But then she started hearing rumors that made her think someone was out to get her. Mallory started a pageant coaching business after her reign. Then, all of a sudden, the Miss America organization told contestants they couldn't use interview coaches.

And that wasn't all.

She kept hearing little murmurs that made her think Miss America HQ had an agenda against her. But it was all hearsay and speculation. The organization still had plausible deniability. That is, until a few years later, when CEO Sam Haskell's emails leaked to the press.

2013 Miss America Mallory Hagan is the subject of multiple email exchanges, including derogatory comments about her love life and weight.

Mallory seemed to be the main target of these sexist, degrading emails from pageant leadership.

In the 2023 A & E.

Documentary Secrets of Miss America, Mallory claims Sam Haskell called.

Her a, quote, whore and trailer trash. But it was more than just name-calling.

Sam Haskell was actively trying to sabotage Mallory's career, including her opportunities to work in television and her new coaching business.

Mallory talked about it in the A & E documentary.

In an email written to Sam Haskell in December of 2015, quote, work to further marginalize her business. It made it pretty clear that there was an effort to derail my career pretty early on.

Mallory didn't know why Sam had such a vendetta against her. Maybe it was because she was so outspoken. Maybe it was because she came from humble beginnings. But whatever the reason, Mallory was shocked and hurtful.

She spoke out against Sam Haskell and other leaders at the time.

A lot of Miss America participants and volunteers offered Mallory their support in private.

Not as many were willing to speak out publicly.

Some even got mad at Mallory for being openly critical of the organization. Here's Mallory again from the 2023 A & E documentary.

There was an event at the Miss America competition where I sat with another Miss America and expressed some of the things.

That were going on.

For instance, Sam allegedly calling me a whore in a room with the executives of ABC.

Mallory expected the full support of her fellow Miss Americas, but that's not what happened.

She looked at me and said, the legacy of the Miss America organization is more important than your feelings.

The very people who were supposed to empower Mallory were cutting her down.

Behind her back.

In certain Miss America circles, Mallory became a pariah for having the audacity to stand up for herself. I wouldn't have blamed Mallory if she turned her back on Miss America, but she didn't.

She remained involved. She wanted to make it better.

She wanted to make sure what happened to her didn't happen to other girls. After Sam stepped down, she continued to coach Miss America Hopefuls. She worked in Miss America's communications department. She still attended the Miss New York pageant every year. Mallory remained a staple in the Miss America community for almost a decade. Even after Sam's sexist and classist remarks, Mallory believed the email scandal was an isolated event, that Sam and his cronies were a temporary stain on an otherwise positive organization.

The first time that we talked, you mentioned something.

About like when the whole blow up with the email scandal with Sam Haskell came out and you were being talked about. At that moment, the way you thought about it was like this thing happened to me. Like this is an issue about him and his administration. And this is the thing that happened to me, not an organization wide issue.

Do you still feel like that?

I definitely think it illuminated at that time how many people were involved in Miss America that modeled his behavior that a lot of people didn't realize. So what started to happen is my story came out and a lot of women from around the country messaged me and they were like, oh my God, it's not the same, but it's similar. My state director did this or my local director did this or whatever.

So what became.

Clear afterward was that there were some systemic issues in behavior that I now understand to be incredibly misogynistic, but I didn't at the time. To me, it was just like, oh, all of these women are being treated poorly in some degree or another.

Although she recognized that something was wrong if so many women were having the same experience, she thought it was on a case-by-case level. She believed that at its core, the Miss America organization was still the same organization she fell in love with, an organization that fundamentally empowered women.

That is, until 2022, when new leadership took over. We're going to spend a lot of time on this new leadership.

Because it seems like something could.

Be wrong at the top of the Miss America organization today. In 2022, the former organization dissolved. Its assets got acquired by someone named Robin Fleming, and she became the leader of Miss America. The Miss America organization has a history of former title holders coming back to lead or serve on the board. Robin is not one of those people.

She never held a state or national title. She never even competed in the Miss America pageant. Of course, none of the men who led Miss America have either. Prior to being CEO of Miss America, Robin wore many hats. She was a dance teacher, a stylist for Dancing with the Stars, she owned a pageant dress shop, and she was a girl boss, whose email address was literally ceo at girlbossing.com. Robin also won Mrs. Florida International 2007. That's a smaller pageant for married women. We found this clip of Robin from back in 2007, which she did an interview for the pageant cast website.

One out of every three children in the U.S. will be diagnosed with diabetes this year. Just picture three children that you really love and know, and now I'm going to ask you to pick one of those to be the diabetic.

It's not a pretty picture.

In addition to participating in pageants, Robin's company, Girl Bossing, Inc., operated Miss California, U.S.A. She was the executive director of that pageant. She also worked for Miss Florida USA when it was being run by the now-disgraced reality TV stars, the Chrisleys. Robin appeared on an episode of their show, Chrisley Knows Best. The episode was all about how Todd and Julie Chrisley would be taking over the Miss Florida USA pageant.

Robin was leading the preparation that year.

So as you know, we have only had five months to really pull this together. So we are on a super tight schedule.

Thank you.

Robin's dress store gets some product placement in the episode. Then in 2019, Todd and Julie Chrisley were indicted for fraud and tax evasion. Sometime after that, Robin Fleming's company, Girl Bossing Inc., started running the Miss Florida USA pageant. It's important to note that we're talking about state-level pageants in the Miss USA system, not Miss America. Most of Robin's experience is with Miss USA. Now, to me and you, they might all.

Sound the same.

But in the pageant world, there's a big difference. That's why, to some people in the Miss America community, Robin taking over seemed to come out of nowhere. Mallory Hagan told me she didn't know who Robin was before she started running the pageant.

I've been around this program a really long time. Been around several state organizations a really long time. And I had never heard of Robin, had never met her at any Miss America functions, had never been introduced to her as a longtime volunteer or a longtime donor or participant.

None of those things. So to me, that also just kind of sent up some spidey.

When Robin took over in 2022, she did an interview on something called Christian Television. The person interviewing her is a kind of modern-day televangelist named Nicole Crane. Even she seemed to be confused about Robin's connection to Miss America.

So what year were you Miss America?

Yeah.

Okay, so never.

You weren't Miss America.

I was not Miss America. In fact, I didn't even have the courage to step on stage to attempt to be Miss America, which interestingly enough, I was a major and I was a dance major at a local university for some time until I figured out I could only ever be a dance teacher. And then I pivoted to business.

And that's a long 10 year journey story I can share with you. But I didn't feel like I had the talent to do the Miss America program at that time.

When Robin came in, the organization shifted in a few meaningful ways. The prior Miss America organization had a very public-facing board.

Now, the Miss America board doesn't have the best track record.

Remember, some of the former board members were participating in those nasty emails with Sam Haskell. But at the very least, people knew who to call if something went wrong. Mallory Hagan again.

So in the past, while there was a board of directors, if there was mismanagement or there were complaints or whatever it might be, then you presumably could surpass the executive director or president and move straight to the board to file a complaint or to raise an issue.

For Mallory, this is the first, we'll say, yellow flag. She's been involved with this program for decades, and she's always known who to call if there's an issue. Now, under Robin Fleming, It's unclear if there's an operating board or what the checks and balances are. When you put that into context, you know, that this is an organization hundreds of young women are desperate to impress.

It's pretty alarming.

The next red flag is a lot more glaring and is something Mallory Hagan also brought to our attention.

I would say the absolute cutoff for me was seeing Miss America in a room with Andrew Tate.

In 2025, then Miss America Abby Stockard was photographed at a UFC fight. In the picture, it looks like she's talking to self-proclaimed misogynist Andrew Tate. Andrew Tate makes his money insulting and degrading women online.

He's been dubbed the king of toxic masculinity.

For 10 years, there have been allegations swirling around him for charges like rape, assault, human trafficking, and abusing minors. Women claim he's drugged them, assaulted them, even strangled them unconscious. In July 2026, his arrest made headline news when he was criminally charged with multiple counts of rape, assault, and possessing child sexual abuse materials. Trump allowed him to be extradited to the UK to face a criminal trial. When Mallory saw the photo of a reigning Miss America standing next to Andrew Tate, she immediately reached out to pageant leadership.

I sent a message that was like, hey, what are we doing? What's going on here?

The answer that came back raised even more red flags.

And the response I got was, we didn't know who that was.

And to me, that was alarming for a lot of reasons. One, Miss America was at a UFC event where plenty of people in the room are convicted of several things, from assault to battery attacks.

This is true.

There are several UFC fighters with long rap sheets. Many have similar charges to Andrew Tate's like domestic violence, sexual assault and kidnapping.

Looking around a room and not knowing who Andrew Tate is was about the most tone deaf thing I could have ever heard. The excuse that we didn't know who he was, to me, screamed a lack of accountability, a lack of awareness, and the inability to consider that that photo lives for that girl forever. So to not do your due diligence, someone this notable, under investigation, with charges pending in multiple countries, you don't know who he is.

That was it for me.

When Mallory reached out to the organization's leadership, they claimed they are not responsible for.

Who attends a UFC event.

But remember, back when she was Miss America, she had someone who traveled everywhere with her.

They vetted every meeting and every photo op.

To Mallory, the fact that the organization either didn't know who Andrew Tate was, or worse, didn't care, told her a lot about how the organization she loved had changed. Mallory might be the most vocal, but she's far from the only one who has concerns. She told us she's been having these conversations with other former Miss Americas and longtime volunteers who are worried about the future of the organization.

We wanted to know more about the recent changes in Robin's plan for the organization, so we did some digging. But Robin doesn't do much press. We kept going back to one of the few interviews she's done, that appearance on Christian TV with the modern televangelist. In it, she didn't say much about her strategy to make Miss America great again.

She did, however, offer a prayer for the audience.

Now Robin's going to pray for you.

First of all, I want to pray in the Lord's name that all of you sitting at home watching this show actually feel called perhaps to pursue a dream or a passion or even just an idea that you've had that perhaps it's been sitting on the shelf dusty. Not something that you have revisited in a long time, but I invite you to look at those childhood dreams and dust them off and perhaps pursue them. But more than that, I would pray that you know how valuable you are, that you truly are one of God's chosen and that whatever your dream is, whether it's to be Miss America or just.

To be.

Miss shows up to work today. If that's a victory for you, that you know that we're all here in solidarity with you because the Miss America program is a sisterhood of women who support other women.

That was sweet.

But it didn't tell us much about this woman who was now running an American institution or her plans for its future. If we wanted to know more about Robin's vision for Miss America, we knew we had to go straight to the woman herself. But before we even got the chance to reach out to Robin Fleming, she found out about us. And she made it clear she didn't want to talk. And she didn't want anyone else talking either.

One of our sources just forwarded me this email and it is from Robin Fleming, who is the CEO of Miss America. And she's not particularly happy about our podcast.

For years, a big part of Miss America's identity as a brand was that it's a nonprofit, an organization that gave out scholarships and championed women's empowerment. But after decades of scandal and rapid leadership turnover, Miss America was basically broke. It was $ 4 million in debt, and it needed a lifeline.

Enter Robin Fleming, the current CEO of Miss America.

Here's a clip of Robin from that Christian TV channel announcing one of Miss America's latest partnerships.

And actually, I'm super excited. This is like the first time I'm publicly announcing this next piece anywhere.

What?

We have partnered with the USO, and so we will be streaming live on YouTube to all the military bases around the world.

When we first started reporting, we reached out to several former Miss Americas. At first, a lot of them seemed interested in talking to us. A few actually confirmed their interviews. But then, one by one, for one reason or another, many started canceling or declined the interview. Then we found out why. A source forwarded us a strange email. It was from Robin, and it was addressed to all the living Miss Americas.

Okay, y'all.

So, thanks for hopping on this call.

That's Taka Zen, our show's producer. She called a team meeting to tell us about Robin's email to the former Miss Americas.

One of our sources just forwarded me this email and it is from Robin Fleming, who is the CEO of Miss America.

And she's not particularly happy about our podcast.

Here's how Robin's email began.

Former Miss Americas, it's come to our attention that a project is currently being discussed involving members of the Miss America community. Headquarters has only recently become aware of this initiative, and I want to make clear that it has not been reviewed, authorized, endorsed, or approved by Miss America.

We don't need their approval, authorization, or endorsement to do this podcast, and neither do the former Miss Americas. Once their reign is over, they're no longer under contract with the organization.

At this stage, we are concerned that participation is could contribute to a narrative that may not fairly or accurately represent the Miss America organization, its volunteers, title holders, or its legacy. Accordingly, we're asking former Miss Americas not to participate in this project until additional information can be obtained and evaluated.

She's trying to stop them from talking to us. The Miss America organization is a bit like a sorority. The women are protective over the pageant's legacy and each other.

I'm in a sorority.

It's one of the Divine Nine Black Greek organizations, which means I'm in it for life. And even if I ever had criticisms of the organization, and I'm not saying I do, I'd be hard-pressed to voice them publicly. Let's say a documentary reached out to me to talk. Then our national president sent an email implying that the doc was a hit piece. Even if it wasn't true, I declined that interview too. So I understand where the Miss Americas are coming from. But still, it was frustrating. And Robin's email to the former contestants didn't stop there.

We would also appreciate learning whether a current or former Miss America title holder is involved in organizing, facilitating, or serving as point of contact for this effort. If anyone has information regarding who is leading the project, its funding, production, team, or intended distribution, please share those details with headquarters.

Our show's managing editor, Monique Laborde, brought up an interesting point.

It makes me think this is her actual goal of this email, is this paragraph where she says, I would appreciate... finding out who has been in touch with this production team.

She wants to know who's talking.

Former Miss Americas are not obligated to get approval from the organization before doing an interview. They don't even have to inform the office. So why Robin thought it was her business to know who was talking to us and why she thought it was appropriate to ask for, as you heard our AP Arlena Revelo say, snitches, I don't know.

And for the record, we get our funding from ad sales, thanks to our distribution partner. But you know, while we're on that point about funding, I now have some questions of my own about where this new.

Owner got her funding.

It was always our plan to invite Robin to do an on-the-record interview. We wanted to talk to a few Miss Americas first, but this email expedited the timeline.

We got to reach out to her.

Should we reach out to her?

Let's reach out to her.

So Bridget, what are you thinking of saying to Robin?

Okay, so here's what I have.

Hi, Robin.

My name is Bridget Armstrong.

I'm the host and senior producer of an upcoming podcast about Miss America. Last season, we profiled the complicated legacy of America's Next Top Model. As you know, we've been interviewing previous contestants and winners of the Miss America pageant.

As the current.

CEO of the Miss America organization, we would love to speak with you on the record about the following. The history and legacy of the organization, the future of the organization, and the current ownership of the organization. In my email, I went on to tell Robin about how I grew up watching the pageant with my grandma and how I'm interested in knowing about its direction today. we believe your perspective as the current CEO is incredibly valuable we would like to include your perspective in this series I hope we get the chance to speak Bridget.

I think that's to the point yeah and very.

Open Yeah, I think this is a really reasonable request. And considering that the organization is kind of built on this idea of being able to get in front of the camera and say the right things, she should be able to come on here and be like, here's why I want to run this organization.

Here are my goals.

So this is a really good opportunity, I think, for her to be able to talk about the positive things that she sees in the organization, if that's what she's concerned about.

We didn't get a response from Robin. But a few days later, we were informed of another email sent to the Miss Americas. This time, it was from the organization's legal counsel. Here's our producer Taka again.

Dear Forever Miss Americas, please be advised that I am general counsel for the Miss America entities. Several of the Forever Miss Americas have contacted our CEO concerned about an upcoming podcast and the request that they participate. No, the Miss America entities take their relationship with our forever Miss Americas seriously. And exploitation of our Miss Americas is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself.

Well, that's dramatic.

After this email from her lawyer, Robin finally responded to our interview request.

Yeah, I finally got a response from Robin. And it is short and to the point.

Dear Bridgette, I reviewed the contract you expect every interviewee to sign. And to be clear, I didn't send her any contract or release. I cannot agree to waive our right to bring a claim against you, Glass Media Entertainment Group, iHeartMedia, for defamation, should your report be defamatory towards the organization or any of our former or current Miss Americas.

Best, Robin.

We naively thought the CEO of Miss America might welcome the attention. Or at the very least, we thought Robin might want the opportunity to share her perspective on what Miss America means today. So we were a bit taken aback by her forceful response. So were some of the former Miss Americas. Here's Miss America 2008 Kirsten Hagelin, who wasn't intimidated by those emails from Robin.

I just was really surprised because many of the former Miss Americas have gotten requests over the years to participate in different documentaries and podcasts. documenting the experience of being Miss America. And many of us have participated. The paranoia about this one in particular just seemed to me to be a little bit over the top. So I don't know where that's coming from. I'm sure that they're afraid about it being some kind of horrible smear of the organization. But, you know, when you're a more than 100-year-old American legacy brand, there's going to be tough questions.

There's going to be criticism.

Before this episode came out, we emailed Robin Fleming a list of specific questions, including questions about the Andrew Tate situation, Miss America's organizational structure, and questions about her bio. Like, were you really a stylist on Dancing with the Stars? And is your email really CEO at girlbossing.com? We got a letter back from her lawyer, declining to comment. When we started reporting this podcast, we thought it would be more of an introspective look at Miss America's origins as a swimsuit competition, its legacy, and its influence on beauty standards in America. At first, we even struggled with finding topics that felt relevant to today. But after seeing those emails from Robin, we thought there might be more to

this story.

So we started digging in what we found floored us.

According to court records, Robin Fleming bought this national treasure in.

2022, but she didn't do it alone.

She partnered with a controversial figure, a self-proclaimed billionaire in Palm Beach named Glenn Straub. Glenn says he assumed $ 4 million of the organization's debt. After that, he believed he was the rightful owner of the organization. Then Robin and Glenn had a public falling out that's led to a bitter legal battle.

Let me tell y'all.

These court documents are unlike anything I've ever seen. According to Robin's complaint, Glenn called Robin a, quote, over-the-hill failure. He allegedly threatened to send letters to all of the Miss Americas, calling Robin Fleming mentally ill. He allegedly called the whole thing a giant waste of time and even threatened to shutter the organization for good. At first, we couldn't figure out why Glenn would even want to get involved with the Miss America organization. For decades, he's rubbed shoulders with the Palm Beach elite. Apparently, Glenn and Jeffrey Epstein used to dock their yachts next to one another.

According to a Forbes article, he's been longtime business rivals with Donald Trump. And with Robin unwilling to speak to us, we decided to give Glenn a call.

To our surprise, he picked up. And he had a lot to say.

I was looking for the pageant business that came to me.

Next time on The Curse of Miss America, we meet the shadowy financer, Glenn Straub, and get into the lawsuit that almost put the final nail in Miss America's coffin.

It's all just a game.

It's all just a joke.

Like, what is the value of these women?

The ones getting really screwed in the process are the women who are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on dresses and coaching and walking lessons.

I'm going to come back to town.

If I was, I'd be in jail.

It was like the final block in the Jenga tower, you know?

Your willing subjects are out there waiting for you.

The new Miss America, here she comes!

Thanks for listening to The Curse of Miss America. We appreciate the support.

We'd love for you to really show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. If you love the show, tell your group chat, your co-workers, your friends, your mama to check us out.

And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners.

The Curse of Miss America is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcast. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, Andrea Gunning, and Ben Fetterman.

Hosted and produced by me, Bridget Armstrong.

Our producer is Taka Zen. Our associate producer is Arlene Arevalo. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Additional production by Amber Watson and Caitlin Golden. Production management by Kristen Melchiorri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Tanner Robbins and Dean Welsh. Mixing and mastering by Anna McLean and additional work by Matt DelVecchio.

Our theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. Special thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the pageant contestants for sharing their stories. If you have a pageant-related experience you'd like to share with us, Email us at MissAmericaPod at gmail.com. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also check out the Glass Podcast Instagram, at Glass Podcast, for Curse of Miss America behind-the-scenes content and more.

Make Miss America Great Again | EP 1 | Curse of Miss America

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