Onyx Storm: Xaden Riorson Deep Dive

0:13 Hello, I'm Ronnie, I'm Abby, and this is Dragons in the Details, where we pick apart our favorite fantasy series over the course of an undetermined number of episodes. This season will be focused on the Empyrean series by Rebecca Yaros. And quick disclaimer, these episodes will contain spoilers up through Onyx Storm.

0:30 If you have not finished Onyx Storm, save this and come back later. Due to the contents of this series, this podcast is rated R and should only be listened to by those comfortable hearing explicit content. OK, now that that's out of the way, each week we're going to dive into a specific topic in depth.

0:45 We will come with receipts. We're going to have quotes to back up any theories so you can follow along if you're skeptical or you don't have to. We don't really care. This episode will be focused on Zaden Ryerson, our favorite shadow wielding martyr. We're going to start with corrections and omissions from last episode.

0:59 Abby, any corrections or omissions to share? Right, so 2 corrections and omissions from last week. First one, when Zaden is having one of his dreams that Violet is in, but she doesn't realize it's Zaden's dreams, Aidan says about Berwyn the sage. He says his power works here, but mine never does. So we talked about last week how Violet can create these dreams. She can create weapons in these dreams. She can feel things in these dreams, but she can also wield, I think she can wield lightning in the dreams, which I think means that she's going to probably face off. It gets Berwyn in the dreams and kill him with her lightning signet is my guess.

1:35 I don't know. We'll see. But I think that would be pretty cool and a pretty good use of her signet. The second one, and this one's kind of bigger and has bigger implications, is that we know that these books are written in the first person, but we also know that they're transcribed by Jacinia because of the note that's in the beginning of the books, right?

1:53 And we know that Jacinia cannot read mine. She is ascribed. She doesn't have a dragon. She does not have power, I guess unless she turns venom, but that would be kind of wild. I don't think she's going to do that. So I think that this is Violet's segment. I think she can literally project. We know she can project memories, right? She does it with Zeta.

2:11 So like, I think she's going to get to the point where she can do it with Justinia too. And she is projecting this entire tale, this entire story, into Justinia's mind, which in my mind also means that Violet will live long enough after the conclusion of this story to do that with Jacinia, which in my mind means Violets going to live.

2:31 That doesn't mean that agrees with me, but that's what I think. That's my hope at least. Yeah, I never thought about it from the Jacinia angle, but it does make sense even with like what we were talking about last week with Violet mind walking just in general. Like Jacinia would have to learn and believe all of this from Violet's exact perspective somehow.

2:51 And we know like, yeah, she projects through Terran all the time in this series, so it doesn't. It doesn't make sense that it's both written by Justinia and written in the first person. And we know and and I mean, I taking it the way Berwyn's signet is, right? Like he creates a reality in someone else's mind.

3:09 So Violet's just doing that, now that I think about it, if that is what's happening. Also means she's an unreliable narrator and could be lying about things, which would be an interesting twist, but. Especially since we hear already directly from Asher that you always have to check who's telling the story. Yeah, that would be very interesting. I don't know what's going to happen with that, but I you shed that.

3:30 Maybe we can't trust Violet. Yeah. I like to think that Justinia is kind of like our faithful narrator, but if that is, yeah, yeah, that's tough. I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. OK. I have one correction and it's honestly just a tactical correction from last week as I was listening back through and also like looking through notes for this week.

3:49 So we, when we were talking last week, talked about the fact that there are sources of magic and basically made it seem like our belief, my belief is that Dragons are not actually a true source of magic with the exception of Irids. And as I was going through 4th Wing and Iron Flame, I realized that basically Rebecca presents it as kind of an accepted truth in both of those books that Dragons are a source.

4:13 Like Segal is a source, Taryn is a source, like there are sources of magic. And I'm more just correcting that we're aware of that, like we're aware of how it's presented in the early books. But I and basically rejecting that notion because we hear that Dragons are gatekeepers and why would we ever call something the source if there's more than one source? And so aside from like my I guess I'm I'm acknowledging that that is how these are presented in the in the books is like Dragons are sources of magic, but I think the only real sources of magic so far are the source ground sky. Like goodness knows, yeah, Yurids and Violet. I definitely thought that Dragons channel directly from the source and that humans

4:55 channel from Dragons. I don't have exact quotes to back me up. I don't think it's ever phrased that way. Fascinating, Rebecca. I love you. I love you. I. Don't think it's ever phrased that way. OK, Scaled magic, Karen's magic. Like that sort of thing. If you are one of the five people who might listen to this podcast and you have quotes, please let us know. I think that's, I think that's really interesting that she's being super steady.

5:21 Yeah, about whether Dragons are true sources of magic or not, I think she's definitely LED us to water, and the water is that they are not. But it's the the propaganda at Bezgayeth is that Dragons are implicit sources of magic, I believe. Right, because what the the Irid who comes and collects and Dharna Leathan.

5:42 Thank you, He says. He doesn't say you're a dragon, you're magic. He says you are ear edge. You're magic. You are magic, yeah. Right, implying that eras are magic and the other Dragons are not. Yeah, and the way that Theophany looks at Anderna, like, contrary to the way that she looks at every single other dragon ever, definitely sets them in like a league of their own. Yeah, I agree.

6:05 Interesting. All right. OK, ready to talk about our favorite character? Zaden Ryerson, Can you say the way that you think it's pronounced again? New York Sush. That's on you too, that that's how you. OK, OK, I don't. Know we'll find out we'll. Just leave it at Zaden. Abby. What do you think of Zaden? Fucking love, love him.

6:27 Tell me why. Oh my God, why not fair? You know, he's so good, like literally from 4th wing from like the moment they meet under the tree, like Dane who? Fuck Dane. I don't care about Dane. Like he is so good at lifting her up, but also kind of making sure she's safe always right? Like he, he supports her, he champions her. He's very stressed out whenever she's a danger, but he won't prevent her from going into danger, which I like. He's like the perfect level of like protective and supportive. He's clearly hot, so clearly like literally worships her, the ground she stands on.

7:04 I mean, like, why could any man compete? Like honest to God, like Rebecca, he's just created like the perfect man here. I don't think he's necessarily like a good guy, like he's a good guy, but like I definitely think there's some sketchy shit he does. I don't think he's the perfect boyfriend. He's he's complicated, which I love.

7:22 I didn't even have another character to compare him to. I think he is the most well written, well-rounded nursing love interest I've ever read. This is. Why? This is why we need Abby to read A Court of Thorns and Roses. For the love of God, or gods if you will. But yes, I agree he's he's on par with maybe one other fictional character I've ever read. I just, I just like, you read some books or you watch some movies and you're like, OK, like, yeah, I get that. They're in love.

7:52 I don't really see why though, and I think she does such a good job of laying the groundwork for this relationship right. I agree, and I also honestly like like I think that Zaden is probably the most attractive character to be written into existence ever, but I still think it's a disservice to him as a character to just be like, he is perfect for like the explicit scenes, the intimacy, the boyfriend piece.

8:16 Like I love Zaden because he's been successfully portrayed as this like morally antagonistic kind of dark character when when you look at the facts, especially leading up to Violet, he's legitimately never done a single thing for himself. Ever. That's true. Like his father started a rebellion for like, good reasons, not for evil reasons, and he was literally just a kid at the time. But he has since been villainized for it, Watched his father die, and then like leaned into the villainization to broker a deal to protect his people. And he had to broker a deal with the people who murdered his father.

8:53 Like he's messed up and yes, he's like ruthless, but he's ruthless with people who deserve it. You know, like, and it's so interesting too, because that villainization of him that we get at the beginning is because these books are from Violet's point of view. It is because she's been raised by Faz Gaian, right?

9:12 Like she does not know the truth. And so it's like as she learns more, as your opinion of Zayden changes and she realizes what he's done to keep the people he loves safe, like we become more sympathetic to him and we start to change our thinking. Like, like what we, what we've, we can't trust what we've been told about the rebellion and the marked ones and all that, which is one of those things that you can just do with first person that you can't really do with an omniscient narrator, which I love.

9:41 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I also like, honestly, what do I think of Zayden? Like, I just want him to get a break. He deserves a break. Like, he's been through so much. He lost his father. His mother abandoned him. Mother's a bitch. Yeah, he's struck deals with his father's executioners and he just like, feels this crushing need to save everyone he can to the point where he's literally ruined himself.

10:04 And like, regardless of what he's done for those reasons, has to count for something. And I just, I feel like he deserves a happy ending and I don't know if he's going to get one. I. Think it's interesting that you said he'll save everyone he can because like that's kind of true but once he meets Violet it's like no I'll you can all burn I'm just saving Violet.

10:25 I don't care right. Like he literally says you would gladly let Arisha burn if it meant I save your life. He. Said that, but I mean, we'll talk about him turning, but he saves Dane, he saves Kath, he saves Imogen, he saves he skirts over Bodie. Yes, he like stops and pauses at Violet, but and that's why I think like what we'll talk about this more in the episode, but like up until Violet, it is very clear to me like he is like morally sound. Interesting.

10:51 I think he's I think he's Machiavelli in his in his idea of goodness. Sure, Totally agree that he is always working towards the greater good. But I think she'll do anything. It's, I mean, it's kind of like he'll do anything to get there. And does that mean he's still good? I don't know. I don't have the answer. And that's why I love these books, because there's so much to talk about.

11:12 Actually, Yeah. Fair enough. OK, the first question before anything we've written out for ourselves is which book Satan is your favorite Zaidan? And we have different opinions on this. I think we. Do 100%, yeah. I love iron flame Zaidan. I think he so noble. I think the way that he treats Violet when they're not together and he desperately trying to get her back, like he won't manipulate where with sex, like he's just very respectful of her boundaries, but still very clear.

11:43 He's like I'm in love with you. I don't love when he's like you're in love with me, but like he doesn't know that she's in love with him. So like. Lily reading her mind, Yeah. And we'll talk about that too, like he is straight up reading her mind. I just think he's really noble in that book. AI don't know I and I'm sucker for longing, like I'm a sucker for a couple that's like wants to be together but isn't together. Like that's kind of my favorite trope. So that might be part of why Iron flames Aiden is my favorite Aiden.

12:13 And then when they finally do get back together in the shower and smile, the way that scene is written, it took me like a couple times to kind of realize it. I was like, Oh well, whatever, fuck it. They're just back together. But she says something like basically like, I want to sleep with you. I am not guaranteeing we're getting back together and you just have to take this chance. And he does it, which I think is really kind of noble. Like he's he's like, OK, I will give you what you want because if you want it to, But because because I love you, I will give you what you want.

12:44 Even though I know it may hurt me, which I feel like is the first time, he's kind of been vulnerable that way and maybe leads down this dark path that we're walking down with him. When he realizes in Samara that he can't control every outcome, he can't make every decision ahead of time, some things he's just going to have to leave to chance and trust that it will work out. Yeah.

13:04 So I I, I just love, I love Zaden and Iron Flame when they're not together. I love him when they're together too. But I think the way he treats her when they're apart makes him a plus in my mind. He's not a Dick. He's never a Dick to her. He's never forcing her to do anything. He's just like, and he's very clear, like the wording of the ropes, too, right? Like, she can bring in whoever she wants. He can only bring in her.

13:33 Yeah, I think that's pretty noble. I think that's pretty sweet. It might also be manipulative. I don't know. But it's not because he doesn't tell her that, right? She asks. Yeah, yeah. He also, I mean, yes, I think, I think Zaden's entire build up across all of the books is very important to who he becomes. And ultimately my favorite version of Zadan, which we disagree on this.

13:54 My favorite Zadan is Onyx stormed Zadan, but only because we had Iron Flames Zadan first. So we know that when he's not getting what he wants, he's still good to Violet. I think that's important. But if I had the stack rank the versions of Zadan in my head, Iron Flame Zadan is last like the most. Real.

14:12 Yes the emotional maturity is amazing, but he's also in this book like let's not forget he's like blocking himself off from her. He's like forcing her to feel like he is making things conditional in that book as well. Whereas in Onyx Storm we just hear and see him being absolutely committed regardless of anything at any time. And is he self-destructive along the way? For sure.

14:37 For sure he is, but he loves so loudly in Onyx Storm, whereas an iron flame, I feel like we just continued to. And I think you like this about like you like these pot lines. So it makes sense that you like iron flame Satan the best. But he is so like he still has a part of himself that's closed off an iron flame. And I'm like, come on, come on.

14:57 I know, but I'm just kind of like, yeah, he's got to have secrets. It's like, yeah, that is who you chose. Like, yeah, fundamental issue with Onyx Storm Satan is that I'm mad at him for what? For turning. And like Lucky Fly at first son of me is mad that he made that choice. Like I think talk about this, did he have to turn?

15:20 So I think he did. He had to turn or die is the way that I like read it. Basically he had to either turn or sacrifice like himself and Segal and therefore turn and die. And I think that is like a fair question to ask is like why is is what Zayden did really for Violet? Or is it self preservation plus Violet? Like he is still selfish enough to keep himself on this planet to exist with her and I think it's a fair question he's about. To raise the wards.

15:55 Nothing that Zayden did gets her any closer to raising the wards. Right. Like at the end of the day it was Lilith. It wasn't even Violet. Well he felt her dying like he felt like her. She was drained, her Shields came down and he felt that she was going to sacrifice herself to make it happen. And he couldn't feel anyone around her or tell that Lilith was going to sacrifice herself for her.

16:19 So all he knew from where he was is the Violet was basically giving in. Yeah, I know, but still, if Zadan doesn't turn just even from a like, let's not even talk about motivation, so let's just talk about plot. If Zadan doesn't turn at the end of Iron Flame, does it change the outcome of the battle? I don't think so.

16:37 Like, I think the wards still go up, and I think Berwyn still has to peace, Right? I mean, also, it seems Nick Fenning can do a lot within the wards, but that's a different conversation. Yeah, but like, I don't, I don't know that this actually accomplished anything. I think it's entirely possible that, well, I actually think it's factually correct, that the battle would have ended the same way he just might have died. Yeah, which obviously I don't want him to die, but I don't know, I think it's complicated choice anyway. I just want him to be OK.

17:09 I know I want them both to live, obviously. It's almost like I want Zadan to live and I want Violet to live because Zadan can't live without Violet. But if the story ends with Violet living and Zadan dead? Devastating. Absolutely devastating. Yeah, I think part of the reason that I'm so like, I know that you are optimistic about the end of the series, and I am not.

17:29 And part of the reason why is I will actually be so emotionally devastated if Satan does not make it. Oh. My God, but I know I'm getting back to take a month off work. Yeah, time for that. OK, well agreed to just wait on a favorite book. Zaid, it's OK. We still like I. I love all Zaid. I think he's great.

17:47 I love him. We love him. We love him. OK Should we get into the questions? Yes. Let's do it. OK, so the first one we asked ourselves, and I'll lead off, is let's discuss Zaden's family tree. So for anyone watching on YouTube, I had to draw this out because I can't make sense of it in my brain without drawing it out.

18:14 And I don't think I'm going to be able to like speak to it while I'm holding it up, but just I'm going to hold it here for your mind's eye. Also have diagonal lines on mine. I actually have two versions of it because I think there's two things I could be going on. Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think there's a lot of branches of different scenarios.

18:31 So let's start with what we know, OK? We know that Zaden is the son of Fenn Ryerson and Talia. As the product of a contract marriage, we learn next to nothing about Fenn other than all of the rebellion stuff, except that Zaden did love him. He adored his father. Fenn's last words were you're all cowards and that he was infantry and obviously the Duke of Tyrrendor.

18:55 We know that Fenn Ryerson had a sister, and we learn virtually nothing about her, but we assume that she's Bodie's mother, given Bodie is second in line. So we've got Zaden Fen and Talia Fen, sister Bodie, and that kind of comprises of the it's it's comprehensive of the people that we have met in some regard to date Zadan's grandfather. And we don't know whether it's on his dad's side or his mom's side.

19:20 We know was at Bizgayeth and was bonded to Segail as her second rider. He was documented as Zadan's great uncle on paper and he didn't make it out of the quadrant. He didn't make it out of the writer's quadrant. He died at Bizgayeth. So let's start with just talking about the missed documentation, because I think that could have happened in a few ways and it's more interesting, It's interesting to think about both options, right? Is it Fenn's parents or Talia's parents where this happened? So the first option is his grandfather could have impregnated a woman and then his brother married her to care for the child.

19:55 So that's a way that that could have happened. Grandfather also could have his his documented father's wife could have also had an affair with her significant other's brother that could have also been away. That this happened and importantly, Segal would know. So like Segal knows how this happened regardless of which side it's on. This also means that either Fan or Talia, whoever it is, would have had to be conceived while in the Rider's squadron. And we're told that Satan's grandfather never never makes it out.

20:25 So like they had to at least be conceived there if not born there. Which is weird and interesting. And I think the part that makes it interesting to consider if it happened on Fen side is there's like a question of legit intimacy of line. If that's the case, like if this is Fenn's father, then he was effectively named heir when he might have been the child of like a second in line or or somebody else. But what do you think is your 2A and 2B? I'm curious.

20:51 That's so interesting. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, because. Because nobility doesn't usually go into the writer's quadrant. Right. No, Yeah, he wouldn't have been first in line. He wasn't if it's been inside. But like this is just if it's been side which we don't actually know for sure.

21:08 I feel safe in assuming it's fence side like Talia is from the aisles. I have absolutely no thoughts if these are Talia parents, we just don't know enough. Like definitely think it's Fenn's side. So my two options were on and I and I think this is probably what happened. What you said that Fenn's father goes to the rider's quadrant, impregnates a girl, dies, and his brother steps in and says I will raise this child as my own.

21:38 Raises the question of the sister right? Is it a full sister? Is it a half sister? If it's a full sister I assume it's twins or they're getting real busy. I don't know. I don't know that that matters. I just if you're thinking about it, the through line, you have to think about it. I actually. Feel like it has it has to be 1/2 sister, like, how else? Like unless unless somebody was actually born and raised in the writer's quadrant, which I find really unlikely because other like then it would have been documented, right? There wouldn't have been opportunity for misdocumentation.

22:11 Like I think this had to be a one time instance, very covert or twins, to your point. Yeah. Option AB, and I don't know why this would be, is that Fence father is impersonating his brother in the writer's quadrant the way that Eric is pretending to be, the way that Cam is pretending to be Eric, whatever. I don't think that that necessarily makes sense. Fenn's father is impersonating his brother. Yeah, Fenn's father is pretending to be. Fenn's documented father or biological father? Fenn's biological father is pretending to be. His true R scenario.

22:45 A true R scenario, yeah. Like he's just pretending and I don't why he would do that unless so this is so interesting is we don't know if Fen's grandfather, we don't know if Fen's father is the first born or the second born. So. We assume, I assume, that if this is all happening on Fen's side, then it is Fen's documented father's younger brother, because Fen's documented father was the Duke, right?

23:09 If but it's like being Eric situation right? Where he wanted to be a rider, but because nobility are not allowed, he pretended to be the second. Son, I see what you're saying. Like he basically like if Holden were to like, what's the word for revoke your right to the abdicate? I don't know. Abdicate. Yeah.

23:27 If you were to abdicate and like abscond off to the Rider Squadron, Yeah. Yeah, because he wanted to be a rider. I think the much more likely scenario is that I think you're right. I think the much more likely scenario is that fence biological father is the second son dies Fen's brother, the first son takes the child in. I still think I still think that makes Fenn the heir, but if not, I guess Bode's the.

23:54 Well, I think that's what's like a little bit called into question, right? Like that's what I mean about just like causing weirdness around legitimacy of line. Like if Fenn is actually the non heirs child and Fenn's sister therefore would have been the like rightful heir. If that like lineage were accepted to be true, then that would mean that Bode would be meant to be like the rightful heir, right? But I don't know.

24:18 Nothing about Bodie so far has indicated that he wants that. In fact, quite the opposite. And so I don't know how much this really matters, but it is kind of interesting to think about. Think it matters because I think it calls violets claim into question which I think is going to be really important and also that more in question too.

24:36 Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about Violet and Bodie because like, that's a separate thing. Yeah. But I think first we should talk about the death, because the most frustrating thing to me about all this is the fact that Scale knows and Zadan also probably knows, and we just don't learn anything about it and don't talk about it.

24:56 But we know that Zadan's grandfather, biological grandfather, did not make it out of the writer's quadrant. And so there are 4 main ways to die at this guy. Normal course of business. Falling off your dragon. I really doubt that that's how a rider of Seagal's dies. Like I just don't see that happening for her.

25:12 Two dying in a challenge also don't see this happening. 3. Manifesting an illegal signet based on what we know about Zaden and the fact that this is Seagal's second bonded rider, not first interesting or turning. And again, I mean, they say he didn't make it out of the writer's quadrant. And in one of Zaden's dreams, which we've already talked about, Aven, and says you are ours, you'll bring what I want. Or she dies and holds the Sword of Tyran door to Zaden's throat. And and and and.

25:43 Yes, hand, arm, and surprisingly useful. Face. Yeah, yeah. So is Zaden's grandfather. This is not a. Corridor theory. I'm just getting there now. Yeah, it could be. It's totally getting set up that way. I think it's important. This man has mentioned five times. I think in a iron flame alone Rebecca will mention things twice and they become really important.

26:02 He's mentioned 5 fucking times like. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I think Berwin is, is Grandpa Rio Arson I. Also just think it's it's hard to imagine someone turning and like defecting from the riders. Like he had to have faked his own death, right? Like there's no other way that that would have been like just accepted and people would have been like Oh yeah, cool.

26:26 Like the rest of the Ryerson's, can enter a Rider's quadrant after this one turned. So this is so interesting because GAIL, she was in Zeta, right? Because he reminds her of his grandfather if he turned. Segal cannot be surprised that Zayden turns. But she seems surprised. Like she seems disappointed.

26:48 Yeah. She seems angry. I wouldn't say she seems terribly surprised. She she's almost. I mean, by the time he, like, fully turned, she's like, you've resisted so long up until this point, like don't give in now. Almost as if she's seen it before. Yeah. I. Don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sold on the Berwyn.

27:06 His grandpa, like, I don't think it's Fen. I know people think it's Fen. I think Fen is. I think Fen died very publicly. You said that to me many times that Fen died publicly. He has the sword of Tear and door. He has a tan arm. He has a youthful face. It's just hard to believe it could be anyone else. Who else do we know who's tan and has, like, a surprisingly youthful face?

27:26 Means he turned when he was like, yeah, right. So. And Berwyn's gonna be someone we know, right? It's like heading in that direction. Yeah, yeah. And it makes a lot of things make sense too, because like the target forgetting Zayden explicitly aside from his power, which I think is important, it makes more sense if that's the case. In which case are they Are they both half venom? Did he turn before or after?

27:49 Yeah, I don't know, could have been an initiate. They could have sex. Yeah, yes. So, so like that's obviously the Fen path, the Talia path, I have no real thoughts on. Like she's from the aisles or presumed from the aisles. She's there now. I don't think this is anywhere near as fun if it's all on her side, so I'm just choosing. I'm accepting that that is not true. But we can't forget the part of the family tree which consists of Zaidan's now half brothers.

28:15 So that's also a thing floating out there. He has two half brothers in the aisles. Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting, obviously, that Talia is from Hidotis and Violet is so reverent of knowledge and wisdom. Like, I feel like that was a plant, I guess. Now, you could also argue that Zadan has the mind of a scribe in the heart of a writer in that his mother is from Hidotis, and therefore that reverence of knowledge in theory was instilled in him, whether or not it was actually instilled in him as question, I think. But he certainly values that in Violet. He loves how smart Violet is, right? So he recognizes that it is important to be smart. It is important to know.

28:56 Thanks. Yeah, I don't, I don't have much on Talia except that like, I don't know, could be good for alliances, right? Like if Violet needs to raise an army, if Zeta needs to raise and raise an army. But they kind of tried that not a storm and it didn't. So I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think like the history of it also makes sense like a contract marriage would make sense, would have made sense at the time for the aisles to ally with tier and door.

29:23 And so I think it points to like this like indication of the rest of the world. And then there's Navarre. And we know also that, I mean, the aisles have played roles in forming alliances with the Krovlish Krovla. And so, yeah, I think more interesting, the more interesting part is just thinking about like how and why they came together in a contract marriage more than thinking about like what her line means at this point because we just don't know enough. This just occurred to me remember and Deborrelli when Portland says something to Zaid.

29:54 Then again, I don't have exactly because this just came to me, but basically like like your father always was like honoring his agreements with us. Like, like he, he implies that there was a, an agreement between Fenn and Cortland that was like positive and good and that it lasted much longer than people thought. Like they thought that Niles had been cut off. Well, OK, fencing, do you think that Deverelli brokered the marriage between Fen and Talia?

30:22 It would make sense because they also brokered the alliance between Krovla and whatever I allocated Krovla, yeah. That's what I'm thinking. I don't know that that matters, but we know there was some kind of deal. Unless it means they didn't now owe something to Deverelli, but I doubt it. I don't know.

30:37 But like, he didn't know she was from Hidotis, right? He had no idea. Right. Yeah, it like dawns on him while he when he sees her, like, Oh, no wonder she liked color and stuff like that. Interesting, interesting I. Have nothing else sane to say about Zayden's family tree. The only other thing I had let me see my notes real quick was depending on when Satan's grandfather didn't make it out of the quadrant.

31:05 Maybe Fenn was born in the quadrant and maybe that's why he hates writers. She writer? Or is she just some random barmaid? Like who is this woman? Yeah, I don't know, because she had to be. She had to know both Fenn's biological father and then his brother. Brother. Yeah. OK. So we know in year 1 they're not allowed to leave. So if he dies in year 1, she's a writer. If he dies in year 2 and three, we don't know it means stuff. Right.

31:33 But if he, I think was it year three that they were allowed to no year 2, they're allowed to fraternize with other quadrants, right? Yeah, they're allowed to fraternize with the quadrants. They're allowed to go to the town that in my mind is Hogsmeade, but it's not called Hogsmeade. Yeah, it clearly is a Hogsmeade though. The only other thing, so that that makes sense. I agree with that.

31:52 The only other thing that's kind of interesting and we again have literally nothing to go off of. So this is just me and my thoughts is Segal's first rider. Like, was that also our relative? Who the heck was that? Yeah, we have nothing. There's no mention of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So okay, next question then. Is Zaden good?

32:11 Right. I'm gonna take us on a wild journey here and I'm not sure it answers the question, but I think we have to talk about it. So let's start with item one. See, absolutely, 100% can read Violet's mind. Not her intentions. He can just read her fucking mind like in Fourth Wing too. So this is before he turns down and this is before anything. We know that because when she's dreaming and Taryn tells her to wake up and then Oren and like the seven other people are in her room about to kill her, Satan rushes in very sexily and kills everyone with shadows in like a snap. And she thinks to herself, I'm alive, I'm alive, I'm alive. I repeat the mantra as Zaid and whites the blood from my dagger on the back of orange tunic.

32:48 And he says, yes, you're alive, full stop. Right? She doesn't say it out loud. I think she says after that I didn't realize I said that out loud. And he just kind of like smiles at her. They do that all the time. All the time like. She will say like oh I didn't realize I said that out loud or like oops wrong connection when she meant to speak to Terran all the time.

33:06 Yes, all. The time but wanted to pull the 4th wing votes because once you get to Onyx storm like his signet is growing there's an argument to be made that like OK he couldn't fully read minds before but now he can. So this is another one at the end of 4th Wing. And we only get this because we get Zaden's point of view at the end when they're fighting. She's found out that he's supplying the weapons to the paromial.

33:27 And she's really mad at him. And he says, I know what you're thinking. And she says, you have no idea what I'm thinking. And then she thinks to herself, fucking traitor. And then in the last chapter, so 50 pages have happened between this, right? So this is when he's sitting by her bed and like he she's poisoned and she's sleeping. He goes sleep is where I hear her call me a fucking traitor over and over again.

33:50 She never says fucking traitor out loud. She only thinks it. She's a blinder, like, and I don't really have a justification for that. I don't. I don't know how you say, oh, it's OK that he reads her mind because Dane did the same fucking thing. And we were on that at him for half a book about it. Right.

34:04 Yeah. So like, I don't maybe mind reader 100%. And maybe it's just her. Maybe it's always been just from even before. Oh, I guess they're bonded at this point. But like, maybe he doesn't realize he can fully read minds because he can only fully read Violet's mind. But he's Dallas telling her. Once I realized I could, I stopped. Like once I realized who you were to me, I stopped reading your mind.

34:28 I knew that wasn't fair. And once I realized that Dane had done that to you, I stopped, right. But he didn't say, Oh yeah, and by the way, I could fully read your mind, not just your intentions. So. Yeah, and it could be, I mean, it could be exactly what happened with her intensive signet, right, where he accidentally manifested it on her before he could manifest on anybody else because she's like the easiest connection to him. But it is morally damning that he said nothing at any point. Yeah, I agree.

34:57 So I want you to keep in mind as I walk you down this road that's Zaden lies. I think it's important and I haven't seen anyone else talking about what I'm about to talk about. So I'm either way off base, probably way off base. Let's just go with that. But I think it's fun. So how does Zaden get Tyrandor back right what he says to Violet.

35:14 I didn't went net. I didn't even ask for it. I'm the last person who should have this thrown right? They actually agreed to give it back and I wish they hadn't. Not that they, not now, not when I'm like this, not when I'm a vented. Basically, he gave me my title and the seat in scenario. I'm not just Arisha either.

35:29 He gave me Terendor. So Zaden's whole story, sorry, Zaden's whole story is that he didn't want the seat back. They gave it back to him because I forget, Llewellyn and the other guy were in trouble because they kept Arisha's secret, which Zaden also did thank you very much. So they couldn't give it to they couldn't give it to them, so they gave it back to Zaden and Violet believes him and he's like, you have to help me protect it.

35:51 I'm so sorry. Like you have to do this for me because we have to protect it when they are in. So so that's Zaid inside of the story, right when they are Endeavour rally, when Halden has fucked up the negotiations like beyond reason. And they are basically like Helden, you have to get out of here.

36:07 We're pulling we're pulling you off the job basically, right. You have failed. We are taking over from here. Go get back in your basket and fly home, Madison says. You are the son of a traitor who blackmailed his way into a title, right? Blackmailed not. You were reluctant. You didn't want it. You fucking schemed to get your title back.

36:26 We know Zading can read minds. Zading could so easily blackmail his way back into a title like it's, it's totally within the realm of possibility and he could be lying to Violet about it, right? Which like, that is a totally different story, right? You go from a guy who reluctantly has power to a guy who is scheming to get power back. We don't know why, right?

36:48 On top of that, Satan only starts talking about married Violet basically immediately after he gets his title back, right? So it's not like I've so in love with you and you want to marry you. It's I have tier and door. I need you to help me protect it, I think. And then he starts dropping. I think she'd be a great Duchess.

37:06 She's my consort. Girlfriend is far too casual a term for what we are, right? Yeah, I'm feeling the same way I'm feeling when we first brought up the Violet is pregnant trope. Like, I know that there's merit to this. I don't want to believe it, but like I know that there. All right, great. I'm about to shift again. So right now this means this means Zayden's a pretty bad guy, right?

37:28 This means like he is not who we thought he was. He we he is not who Violet thought he was. And he has turned Venon at this point, so we can't really trust his motivations. We don't really know what he's thinking. Like what if he weren't then? And would he want the seat of power? Do the Venon want the seat of Conger?

37:44 Is that what's happening? I'm going to make your day here because I don't think so. I don't think that's what's happening. I think Zayden and Eric are scheming at this point. I think because immediately after he gets his seat of power back, that is when Eric's that's when. So to set the scene, this is, we talked about this last episode, but this is when the Flyers, the rhetorician riders, and the best Gaiath riders are all fighting.

38:08 Violet comes in and makes this great speech about how we have to work together, how all of the previous generations have failed. If we don't come together now, we will fail to. And it's a great speech. And Eric and Zagatan and some others from the scenario, like are talking to her actor. And Eric says that was a great speech. I think she'd be an amazing general, don't you think? And Zaden says or maybe and he says or maybe like nobility or something.

38:33 And Zaden says at least a Duchess, right? That is the first point where he says where he implies that he that they should get married, right? And it also the way that that played out in my head as I was reading it was almost like an inside joke, like the two of them were joking around together. I think they're already scheming at this point, which means that Zaden. I know an inside joke.

38:53 Then they've been communicating right. Sorry, going. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, saying rather to get his power, his seat of power back because Violet, for whatever reason, we don't know yet, I think it is imperative that Violet is the Duchess of Tierra and, or, and Arisha, like, I don't know what the I don't know what the scheme is like.

39:11 We're going to find out that it is like she has to be in that seat. And so again, this is where I get back to the Machiavellian thing. I, I believe now that you can say it and absolutely blackmailed his way back into the seat. I don't know what he did. I don't know what dirt he has on the scenario. I don't know what dirt he has on King Terry. But like, I totally believe that that is what happened. But I think he probably still did it for the greater good. I think he probably is still doing this to save Violet and to save Terendor.

39:43 And then there's that quote from Lou Evan where Zaden and Violet are like fighting because he wants, he's basically like about to give up. It's rafter links manifest his signet. And he's like, oh fuck, there's a new shadow wielder. Nature has decided that I'm not on the good side anymore. Nature is manifesting the good shadow wielder. So he's like, I'm fucked.

40:01 I have to get out of here. I just have to run away. And her and him and Violet are fighting and Llewellyn comes up and says like it's really far to be in a relationship with someone whose nobility like, and I forget the exact wording but it's like you have to you have to do what's right for tier and door. And she says right for tier and door or right for Zayden. And he says they're the same thing at this point. Like there is no difference between them. They are the same.

40:25 And in the battle where it's the the battle of Orisha, where the it's like the second time theophony shows up, it's towards the end of the book. But it's not the final battle where Eric says you have to go protect the temple of Dune. He says it's how you save Terendor, right? Not it's how you save Orisha, it's how you save Terendor.

40:45 Terendor and Zayden are the same. So with. Their fate for links, yeah. Right, right. So I think, I think this is all a scheme. I think this is all to get us to the point where Violet is in charge of tearing door and that will save Zaden and everyone probably stay. But I think think Rebecca's taking us on a crazy fucking journey is what I said. Yeah, I agree.

41:07 I mean I think the scenario that you just described is most likely. There is like a very real part of me that deeply fears Rebecca taking us on this like Zaden demise journey and like keeps 2 real options like war in the background for Violet and like I can't entertain that and I can't handle it. Who are The Who do you think are the offense? Well, Dane for sure.

41:30 And Dane. And Sloan? Oh, he probably turned. We don't know when Bodie is defending her. She's like, what an odd choice of companion, seeing as you reek of his can. And Bodie says I'm here protecting my cousin, protecting my province. And Theophony looks straight at him and says and her. I totally agree.

41:50 Bodie's definitely in love with Violet, everyone is in love with Violet, and honestly there's even moments where Garrick I'm like OK man, stop. Like what's going on? Yeah, Imogen of your girl. Yeah, yeah, I think like I think if we didn't have the Zaden POV chapters, I would actually stand behind that way more. But I because we have those, I feel good at least about his like intentions around Violet, which leads to my thoughts around like Zaden's goodness, which is not at all in conflict with any of yours.

42:19 Like I think he's his actions are questionable and not truly aligned with his intentions all of the time. I think before he meets Violet, he's in my opinion, kind of of objectively good. Like he's he breaks laws, obviously, but he knows exactly what and why he's breaking these laws and has like the greater good in mind the entire time.

42:41 He takes on the burden of every single childhood separatist. He does illegal things to make sure that they get through the quadrant as best they can. He continues to help the Griffin Flyers despite like potential for him being executed and also everyone being executed. Like he takes massive risk in the name of goodness, but there is a break where he crosses this path of loving Violet. Like really loving Violet, where his moral compass seems to legitimately evaporate and it just is Violet. Like Violet is his moral compass. And I mean.

43:14 Like, he answers to her. He makes it abundantly clear, like in any moment where nobility or like leadership is brought up, He's like, I, like I am loyal to Violet. No problems. No king. Yeah. And so if Violet is good, I think he's good or does everything that he like does in the name of goodness. But if Violet goes dark, I think he's going right there with her. Like I think Violet interest becomes the proxy for his moral compass.

43:41 And he says, like, my loyalty is to Violet first about everything, everyone else, then Tier Endor, then Navarre in the moments worthy. And it's when Violet is in residence. And what does Violet get as a gift from Zenal? A broken fucking compass. Yeah, that's so interesting. They're all going to matter.

43:57 I think we're on different sides. I think Zadan is good, for goodness sake. And you think Zadan is good for Violet? I think Zadan will do bad things to be good. Like, you fully think in the next book we're going to, it's going to be a Zadan smear campaign, right? Like it's going to be Satan is so bad.

44:15 He did this. He did this. He blackmailed his way into royalty, you know, like, yeah, it's going to be like the second Spider Man movie all over again. And even at the end of in the last scene of Onyx Storm, we start to see like, they want to interrogate Violet. They already are, like, demonizing Zaden.

44:29 Like, clearly this was Ryerson's doing. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like, I think, I think that's what we get in Book 4, probably to the fight where she's questioning it. Maybe, I don't know, maybe. But I don't, I don't necessarily see that as like us disagreeing except for maybe that I guess like I am assuming that Violet will always be good.

44:50 Like I don't think there's anything she like, she will choose everyone over herself. Right, every time. Yeah, and he'll choose you over everyone, every time. Yeah, but I also think that like this, like Violet basically becoming his moral compass once he's exposed to her and in love with her, is also more meaningful than just like, love for Violet, because I think she embodies something bigger than herself. Yeah, I'd say that's absolutely true. And I think I have this quote written down here, but I think this speaks to years both of our theories where he says I'll use Terendor to protect you, not you to protect Herendor. Right, right.

45:23 Like kind of the same thing because I think I think he's using the title of Duchess of Tierrendor to protect her. And you think he would do that basically is what you're saying? Like, yeah, yeah. I'm just like, of course, like, oh, he has this new thing at his disposal to protect Violet. Like, doesn't matter if it's the best thing for Tierrendor, it probably is because he's working with Arc and Arc doesn't give a shit about either of them. But he's like, yeah, this.

45:44 Is special Violet. Arc gives a shit about Violet but he has 0 qualms making Zaden unhappy. I agree with that think. I don't think Eric lifts a finger for Zaden. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think Eric lifts a finger for the he. He is all about the greater good, and the fact that Zaden and Eric's incentives seemingly align makes me think that keeping Violet protected is aligned with keeping the world protected. There's.

46:10 A line I remember, but there's a line where Eric says how much he like, loves and respects Violet. Basically. Like I think it might be when they're in the archives. The archives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I thought it was actually, I thought it was him actually saying the only person I hate more than Zayden is my father.

46:27 I don't remember to be both. Could be both. But we will. It's fine. If you can have it. Let us know. Yeah. Trust us. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. And then I just had some notes on maybe why she needed to be the Duchess of Tierra Door. So we know that the Black Dragon hatching grounds are in Tierra Door and there's a large supply of Talladium in Tyrandor, which is used to make the ally said. I doubt it's either of those things, to be honest, because like this, this fantasy, I don't think it's going to be something practical like that.

47:00 I don't know. I mean, I guess we also know that that our new Dragons hashing in Tyrandor too. That is probably important. And we know defensively it's a very, it's a very defensible province because it's up on those cliffs so strategically, and it's the second, it's the largest province. So like strategically, it's a very good thing for her to fold. But is that going to be why?

47:23 I don't think so. It's not going to be something practical like that. It's going to be something something magic, something important, I think. Yeah. Anything else to talk about? Is Zadan good? On Zadan's goodness, no, I think we covered. I just love I like I I kind of love the image in my mind of Zadan being like an agent of Violet, which is genuinely how I see him in terms of his morality. Like now, not necessarily like an agent of Violet that Violet has control over in terms of his actions, but like, yeah, but you.

47:53 Yeah, no, no more just sadness. He's. Got to be OK, like he has to be OK. Yeah. OK. Which brings us to our next question, which I guess I pasted this as has Zaden fully turned? But I think what we meant was when Zaden turns, does he lose all of his humanity, right? Do I have the right question? You think that's kind of the same question? OK, which is the question we're answering. Either way, I'll answer it the same way. I answered, Has Zaden fully turned? OK, then I will answer that question as well, but it's the same answer to me honestly.

48:25 OK, so the next question we asked ourselves is has Zadan fully turned? So just to recap, we know that at the end of Iron Flame, Zadan becomes an initiate. He channels from the ground to buy Violet more time to raise the wards. And then at the end of Onyx Storm, we see this big, big moment where he basically relinquishes all semblance of control and turns Asim, presumably. And so let's just like talk through briefly the moment when he turns because there's a very specific quote and point in time that makes me fairly confident that he is either not fully turned or like he fully turned and he's Venom now, but he still has his humanity and loyalties to all the people that he loves, specifically Violet, but still

49:12 all the people that he loves. So here's the moment he turned, right. How fucking dare they pull my dragon from the sky, snare and hurt the one who anchors my existence. I throw my blades into the air, fall to one knee, splay my hand over the Canyon floor and break in my final act of resistance, I become the very thing I despise.

49:29 Maybe it's good that I can't feel a single damn thing he feels. He then feel. I'm just going to paraphrase here because I don't want to read the whole passage, but he feels his soul kind of depart and start to flake away and the last remaining pieces of him beg him to save them. Which is a scary moment, right?

49:44 Because you start to think, oh God, like is are the pieces of him that want to save these people actually going away and dying? He saves Dane and Kath, he saves Segal. He mentions, and he says he's listening with satisfaction as their bodies hit the ground in front of the people she loves. He saves them all for violent.

50:05 Being the Wyvern. The Wyvern, yeah, the Wyvern that he's killing fall in front of the people that she loves. She, we're assuming is Violet. Could be scale, but probably Violet. Then he says something very important that makes me believe that his soul is not dead, and it's when Violet whispers. I love you, he says.

50:22 Her voice cracks the cold and a silken thread of warmth wedges itself in the opening before it seals shut, locking it into place. So Violet's love and this shred of her seals itself behind Zaden's ice becoming basically like the way I've interpreted it, becomes part of his venom form once he turns or becomes part of him for now.

50:42 And he says after turning, after this is all done, he says, I love her. That's the emotion I cling to. And I know if I take it any further, it will be the next and final piece to float away. And then he basically alludes to the fact that he has a plan, one that he basically takes his ice down, Shields down, and let's scale C.

50:59 And we know then that this plan is like what unfolds over the next 12 hours. And so I think there's a few important pieces here, right? Like Zayden does not turn out of greed, power, desperation, all the things that we talked about on the last episode, even survival. He doesn't turn out of survival. He first channeled to save Violet, but he ultimately turned for Segal.

51:17 We know first love is irreplaceable and both times he made irreversible choices, they were for love. You mentioned on the last episode that we don't know anybody who's turned for love yet. I think that's true unless we do find out the nail and turned, in which case he may have realistically turned for love.

51:35 But we don't know that for sure. So let's focus on then as you also pointed out in the last episode, Theophania said our kind don't feel what you call love and also we lie. So like those two things together, like we think that Bennett can feel love. I think that Zaden turned out of necessity to choose a path that leaves the people that he loves alive, and he seems to continue even after turning, executing a plan that saves them all. And there would be absolutely no reason or drive for him to do that, to marry Violet, to continue putting pieces into place with an ultimate end game seemingly, of writing all of these wrongs if he didn't still feel a moral pull towards protecting them.

52:18 So I'm curious your thoughts. But I absolutely do not think I. I think that Zayden is fully Venom, but I do not think that Venom necessarily are everything that they have portrayed themselves to be to us in this novel so far or in the series so far. Yeah, I guess the real question is, is Zayden beyond redemption? And I agree, the answer is 100% no. I absolutely think he can be saved. I think, OK, I have three things I want to talk about. The first is this idea of a plan, right? I think Zadan knows he's going to turn. I think that for two reasons.

52:48 One, when he comes back to Orisha, he said this is towards the end of the book. It's right before the last battle. He kind of comes back and Violet's like he's in a really good mood. This is really nice. He seems to have hope. And then she realized he's getting his affairs in order, basically. And he says, I'm going to make the most of the days that we have together.

53:09 And she's like, what do you mean days like weeks, months like? But he says days. And then on the Cliff in the quote you mentioned before where Segal says you have not turned yet because because of his actions, do not do it now. He says, do this. It's already done like this happens. I channel right now like this.

53:28 This is it. So I do think he knows he's going to channel on the Cliff before he gets there. I don't think he knows they're going to capture Segal. I think he's enraged about that, but I think he knows he does not walk away from this battle with his soul fully intact. So I have some deep dive things here which I think are interesting. And this still leads me to no, he has not fully turned. There are a lot of Zaden and Andarna parallels in this book in the way that the characters are written. So we know we know that the quest squad is like a symbol to go find Andarna's parents and Andarna's family. They find them and then they reject Andarna because she's too violent.

54:13 But Leo thin, who's an elder in her den, comes back at the end of Onyx Storm because because they are of the same den and because he was kind of like, I didn't feel great about what happened. We just like kind of abandoned you. I think you do deserve to learn our ways. But what we find out is that he was watching him during one of the battles.

54:31 I think it's the same battle where they protect the Temple of Dune. What Leo then says to Andarna is your behavior is abhorrent and your actions were misguided, but your motives are honorable. That's what he says to Andarna. We also find out that Mira has been Mira Vile's sister. You guys all know Mira's. I don't need to explain this.

54:50 She has gone off and found Grandma Asher's mother. Grandma tells her that they dedicated Violet that Asher dedicated trying to dedicate Violet to Dune in the aisles, but they wouldn't take her because her paths were not set. And what the priestess said exactly was she said the heart that beat for you or within you would do the wrong thing for the right reasons. Wrong thing for the right reasons. Reach her and speak wolf and turn dark, right? So we have these two parallels, right? You are doing bad things, but you are doing them for the right reasons, right?

55:24 So in my mind, and Dharna is a good character, Zaden is a good. We just want to do. This is Zaden. Yes, he does the wrong things, but he does them for the right reasons. So that's the first parallel. The reason I'm bringing this up is because of an Andarna leaves, right? So when Andarna leaves, the way Violet describes it, she says my heart stutters, my lungs cease, and my lungs cease their struggle.

55:44 There's no air and no reason to seek it. I was infinite, yet moored. Now I'm follow and adrift in waters too vast to comprehend. I'm nothing. And then Tarn comes in, right? The sky dark as the ground troubles, blah blah blah. He says you will breathe. His deep, gravelly voice fills my head and unyielding strength barrels down the pathway that connects us.

56:03 Taryn. He exists, therefore I must, because we are bound to never alone, always connected. She left us, she left us, She left us. It's all I can think. We remain Taryn herders. As if I have a choice not to. Right when Zaden turns, he says my soul departs like pieces of ash from a fire, flaking free and drifting away as power consumes the space.

56:23 And once inhabitants, I'm no longer on the ice. I am the ice. And then Viola says I love you and all that stuff. The soul happens right in my mind. These are the same. These are pretty much the same things, right? Like Violet is adrift Satan's, Satan's soul departs like pieces of ash from the fire. Like they're both talking about the same things, right? Like their soul is just leaving their body. This part of them is gone.

56:48 And then someone grounds up, someone pulls them back and says no, you have to be here. You have to stay with me. You cannot be fully gone. And we know that Violet recovers from Andarna. And there's even more language like she says at one point I was full and now I'm not. When Andarna leaves and Zaden says to GAIL can sense that he's not full, right? So there's all these parallels to these two situations. And we know that Violet recovers, like, yes, and Darna comes back, but Violet recovers even before that. So I think basically I'm in agreement with you. I don't think Zaden is fully irredeemable because it wouldn't make sense from a story perspective. But also I think we have this parallel within Darna. I think this was Rebecca

57:28 signaling to us that this is how you keep yourself tethered, right? And that's what they call each other, right? Violet is Zaden's time like they are tethered. This is how. This is how you keep yourself not full completely. Yeah, and it would be really interesting. Like I know that Taran has tossed the word mates around and basically like pseudo like fake confirmed that humans don't and have them, which I don't know if I believe.

57:52 But like it's interesting to propose the fact that Violet can be Zaden's tether when you would expect it to be Seagal. Like you would think that like Taryn was the tether for Violet to be on this earth. Like she said, I exist for Taryn, I live for Zaden, and so it it calls into question whether Violet and Zadan's bond can be independent of their Dragons. And I know we both kind of think that it can, but. And maybe Zadan's bond, well, I think that it is. I think Seagal kind of gives up on him, right? And Violet won't.

58:27 And Taryn does not give up on final. Like he's like, we're going to it's I know she's gone, but we're still here. And Segal says, he says, well, you'd forsake me out. And she says, what is there left to forsake? Like maybe if Segal had fought for him the way Violet does, it would have been Segal.

58:42 But. It's a really like when you when you think about it is it's like a devastating foursome and that like Segal is watching Zadan do anything he can for Violet and Segal is like what the fuck? And Violet is doing like Violet will choose Taran, I think. Like I don't think she'll ever really be presented with the choice.

59:02 But yes, like like we are witnessing a situation where scale is Segal is locked on Zadan all the time. Zadan is locked on Violet all the time. Violet is anchored to Taran. He is the gift of her life. And Taran is anchored to Segal. And like, yes, of course, like the two, like the riders and their Dragons are like intrinsically linked and bonded and like Zadan quite literally goes like completely crazy when they start to threaten Segal.

59:30 But like in terms of who's doing who for what and who expects their bonded to just kind of like tolerate them and their choices. Like we have a literal square and Darna's off somewhere, but amongst all of them we have an emotional square. My God, I just had a thought. Like so. I've seen a lot on the socials this week about how Segal is a surrogate mother for Zaden, right? And Darna, but yes.

59:56 And she kind of abandons him the way that Talia does, right? But if if you follow that thread, then Taryn is also a surrogate father for Violet. And assuming we think Asher is who he says he is, Asher is such a better father then Talia is a mother. And like Taryn will never like Asher would never abandoned Violet.

1:00:18 Unless we find out of course he did. But in Violet's mind, Asher would never abandoned her. Right. So it's like it's just following the pattern of their parents. Yeah, it's sad. It's just sad. Like I don't really think there's too much to it. Like I think they'll continue to make choices in that pattern. But like, we've never seen Karen in battle, like throw himself off because of where Seagal is.

1:00:43 We see that for Violet all the time. We see Violet do it for Taryn and for Zaden all the time. But like, yeah, it's just, it's gut wrenching to think about all the things that could happen with all of their linked emotions, all the things that probably did happen because we know that Satan's gone. Yeah, that's so true.

1:01:00 Like some GAIL shows up to show to say Violet because Zaden is freaking out. And we've heard Segal like how could you let this happen to him, to Violet when Taryn gets like a wing spur stuck in his side. We have never heard anything like and maybe Taryn spares her like maybe we're just not hearing it from Zanes POV.

1:01:20 But I've heard so little or seen so little of Taryn to Zavan. Like how could you let this happen to her? He's always like Sagal can handle herself. Yeah, yeah, the true love story the whole time is Violet and Taran. Yeah, I feel good about where we left there. I think it's parental love versus, you know, love like blah, blah.

1:01:37 Like it's you'll do anything. You'll do anything for your children. That's what Lilla says over and over again, right? Like you will do anything for your children. Well and also like first love is irreplaceable. Like Sagal was there for Zayden far before Violet was and he turns for her and Taran was there. I mean, to be fair, like around when Zayden is there, but first, yeah, yeah, OK.

1:01:57 Anyway, yeah, Zadan and Aunt Dharna parallels. Parallels you have. Did you have a Third Point? No, the free the fate verse free well thing which we talked about at the top. Like, yeah, Zadan fully knows he's gonna. He's not walking away from this. But like, there's no doubt in my mind, especially because Eric leaves the note. That's a strike in the dark.

1:02:15 But, you know, I think I think we should talk about this more when we talk about sickness and like, not in watch of a precog. Is Eric truly, Like, what does he know? I think he knows the outcomes of things. I think he doesn't necessarily know how those things happen, which is why I think there's so much anger from Zaden about Segal being captured. But yeah, like they know this is what happens. Yeah, I think my hypothesis on Eric, and we will talk about it more in Cygnus, is he knows the things that need to fall into place to make an outcome occur, but he doesn't necessarily understand like the collateral damage that happens throughout it or like all of the gory details. And he might as he gets older.

1:02:54 He's literally a first year. But yeah. Yeah, or he did know Segal was going to get captured, but he couldn't tell Zaidan because he needed Zaidan to feel that anger. Yes. And if Zaden found the way, like maybe Zaden needed to turn and if he had found a way to freeze Seagal, then he wouldn't have or it would have thrown gone down some other path.

1:03:11 I do think we should at some point talk about like the whether there's even potential for Eric to manipulate Zaden, because if Zaden is a full mind reader, then like Eric needs to have a really good handle on his Shields in order to withhold information from Zaden. But if he can, then that's also interesting, right? Because Eric has his own motivations that are not, they seem to have to date be aligned with Satan's, but they could not always be.

1:03:36 Think they're only as aligned with Zaidan's as long as Zaidan's fate is tied to the fate of the greater good, right? I think it's exactly what we were talking about before. And violets. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Eric might be her moral compass in this book, like he might be the only one with truly pure motivations, but but I'm not convinced we have enough to know that yet.

1:03:56 He just hasn't done anything sketchy in my mind. Well, he's also given up quite a lot to do what he's doing. And so you would hope that like the fact that he quite literally threw away his entire like, title, position, any possibility of ever holding power, that he acts with good intentions. Yeah, I know. It's kind of crazy, the idea he had to sacrifice more than anyone else to get into the rider's quadrant, and then he. Becomes a true pre cut like that doesn't feel like coincidence right like yeah, something's up there, something's there, but it is like if you're going to have a rider in the quadrant like that is an ideal signet for nobility right so. He never becomes king.

1:04:39 Oh my God, that's too much power for one person. Yeah, but I think there's there's like an epigraph about Melgon Signet and like when a manifested like warfare. Change the face of warfare forever. Yeah, anyways. So, Abby, why did the venom want Satan? So this is interesting, and we talked to you this last episode that it's unclear if they want Satan or if they want Violet. Like it's kind of written so that when you don't know that Violet is Dream walking, it seems like they just want her. But what we found out, what we find out in Onyx Storm is that every dream is Zaden's, assuming we can trust that. But what we find out is every dream is Zaden's. And there is a moment in Onyx Storm in the dream where she's able to separate herself from

1:05:22 Zaden. Berwyn says hello, lightning wielder. Or should I call you Dream Walker? Right. So I think it is safe to assume up until that point in time, Berwyn did not know that Violet was in the dreams. So we can assume that everything he said in those dreams was meant for Zadan's ears and not for Violet's ears.

1:05:41 So some important quotes here. First one, this is from one of the dreams. There is no escape. Me, Me writer. He whispers, his fingers ghosting over my cheek but not quite touching. Fight me and die, rejoin me and live beyond the ages. But you will never escape me, Not when I've waited centuries for someone with your pen. Which is exactly the same thing.

1:06:01 Well, not exactly the same thing. Very similar to what Theophony says to Violet. So both of them, for whatever reason, power that hasn't been seen in centuries. We know there have been lightning wielders in the past century. I don't know if we know about shadow. Wielders. So Professor Deborah says the last time a shadow and a lightning wielder fought side by side, they managed to drive the venom back into the Barons for a few 100 years. So we know that last time we drove back the venom, there was a shadow wielder and a lightning wielder. Right, concurrently.

1:06:29 But do we know if there has been shadow wielders and lightning wielders? Not concurrently in the past, but it's the same question with Violet. It's you haven't seen this power in centuries. Does that mean the shadow wielding thing or is there something else? I fully assumed that they were referring to Zanes Intensive. Abilities.

1:06:46 Very interesting, Very interesting. And I have a justification for why, but let's finish, finish you. And then if we don't get there, then so that's. The first thing there's a powder that he has not seen in centuries, right. And then so I think this is the next stream, right? Show me the power you use to slay our forces above the trading post. Prove me right that your weapon worth watching, worth retrieving.

1:07:07 The one who watched thinks you'll never yield that we should kill you before you grow into your full abilities, right, So it's not there yet and he could get there without being Venom is how I beat this right? Like because if they if they kill him, if he doesn't turn, he'll still get to his fill abilities without turning. So we don't, we don't know what those are very interesting that it could be intensive related.

1:07:29 I don't know why that didn't occur to me. The only thing that I'll like Pepper in here because I think it's like it's in line with everything else that you're talking about. But like, we know that your signet continues to grow stronger, stronger as you age. And Zaden, we know like we've already decided together that he is a mind reader. I have a suspicion.

1:07:47 Like mind reading would obviously be incredibly dangerous with unlimited power. And I wonder whether the one who watches is a mind reader that is reading everyone's mind all the time. Yeah, so my theory on the one who watches is not mind reading, but like basically the I can't remember what's called in Game of Thrones.

1:08:07 The guy, the guy who's plugged into the tree and can see like everything at once. Yeah, I think it's that ability. So not necessarily mind reading, but the ability and not pre clog, right? Because he's not seeing the future, but I think he can see everything that's happening. Right now, yeah. But how would that be disconnected necessarily from mind reading?

1:08:27 I don't know about people's thoughts. I don't know if you can see people's thoughts. I think he can see what's actually happening. Different, different episode. All right, so that's the first thing. Power not seen in centuries. He's not going into his fault abilities. Second, second part of the dreams.

1:08:42 You are ours. The sage's eyes narrow with madness. You will bring what I want. His grip tightens with every word, only allowing a trickle of air into my lungs. Or she dies and then there's a second dream. You lost something I wanted. But you will bring her. So Zadan has something. Something not somewhat something that the Venom want in these dreams. The Sword of Tyrandor, which it took me 3 rereads to realize was a different thing than the Blade of Orisha. By the way, the sword of Terendor plays a major part. The sage always has the sword of Terendor. He's swinging it at people.

1:09:18 He's putting it at people's necks. It could be that Zaid and we know Zaiden has the sword of Terendor. He got it back when he got his title back. If we are leading into our precog theory that grandpa is Berwyn, I think it would make sense that the thing that he wants is the sword of Terendor. But it also seems kind of dumb. I don't really know why a sage would need a sword. He seems plenty powerful without a sword. We don't know of any special characteristics of this sword. I think it's unexplained, but it seems to come down to those two things.

1:09:48 Doesn't he also take Violet's emerald from the hilt? No, that's from the blade. That's. From the he takes it from a dagger, which I think is so sweet that he takes it from a dagger instead of a sword. Yeah, that is sweet. Then that aside, then like, yeah, I don't know why it would be sword, the sword of Tyrion door, unless like it is one of Zaden's relatives and like he feels it's rightfully his, which if that's the case, then maybe it's it seems odd that it would just be like nostalgia.

1:10:16 This also happened, right? Like and I think it was intentional because it was the way we were reading it through through Violet's point of view. But it happened right after and Darna left I think, right? Right, right. So we. Didn't have Indarna, right? It is. Definitely meant to be a false flag not to. I hate that term but like it is meant to be a red herring. Like you think what they lost is Aunt Dharna, but it's not. Yeah, but the often he does confirm that they're upset that she lost in Darna.

1:10:45 Absolutely. But I think this is something different because it is Berwyn talking to Zaden. Zaden had nothing to do with an Darna. I don't. I don't think this is Anne Darna. I wonder. What else He. Lost right? It's not clear that Zaden loses anything except as far as I can tell, the sword is in Dev rally. And then we never talk about it again. Like Zaden brings the sword to deborally to potentially bargain with Courtland and Violet does not let him. She says no, like do not give that up. That was your father's.

1:11:15 It's too special, it's too important. And then Violet makes a deal and we don't know the details of that deal. I mean maybe they did give away the sword because it's it's literally never mentioned again I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I mean the only details. Well, yeah, I don't. We learned that they want hers and Satan services like whatever that means.

1:11:32 Yeah. Interesting. We surprisingly had very different responses to these questions this week. Well, we had. For this one, we had the exact same like first thought, which is my like first thought for why did the venom want Zadan was like, let's start with like the simplest explanation. Like Zadan is incredibly powerful and perhaps one of the only mind readers that has found a way to remain alive.

1:11:54 So like his power could be incredibly rare. It could not be. And it's mentioned in that epigraph that mastery of 1 signet does not happen in Basgayeth and you will continue growing stronger. And so I mean, yeah, I think like if you if you assume that most mind readers have not been allowed to stay alive and then to assume that Zaden is more powerful than most riders in existence. And then you think about what he becomes then if he becomes Vennon.

1:12:23 Like we don't really know unless the one who watches is a mind reader, like what mind reading means on the Vennon side. And it's seems incredibly formidable at first. Thought, like the whole nature and balance thing throws off the idea of the one who watches being a mind reader, right? Because then they would have two mind readers.

1:12:41 What? Unless it's. Unless it's Zayden. When does that? When does that first year manifest a mind reading signet and then gets killed? In fourth way. OK then, it was a long time ago. I'll look into this. Wait. Yeah, because I had to be after she found out about Zayden. No, it's not. It's in Fourth Wing. She hasn't manifested yet and she doesn't even know about the conspiracy yet because like it's like clued in there because he looks at Garrick, the guy who's manifesting looks at Garrick and Garrick thinks shit they're going to find out about. And then I think Zayden comes in and like covers his mouth with Shadow and then Car kills him.

1:13:14 Yeah, and says if you value your secrets, put your Shields up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. OK, so yeah, we don't know how that balances, but I do think like it. I don't know whether they're talking about shadow wielding when they're talking about his power. I also think it's like intentionally ambiguous, like between the Ven and wanting Zaden and wanting Violet, like who they actually want.

1:13:35 And it's mentioned super early on by I think Car that violin, Zaden, Violet and Zaden together are too formidable to be left alive if they. Turn. I think it's Llewellen. Really. I thought that right before car started training Violet on her signet, he was like just so we're clear, I'll find the clue.

1:13:54 He might come up more than once because I'm pretty sure well and says as long as you 2 are playing nice everything will be OK, but you're far too formidable of force when you're together. If you decide that you don't want to listen anymore, basically. Yeah, but maybe it is brought up multiple times because I think it's it's brought up super early.

1:14:12 She's questioned on her loyalty and she says I am loyal to Navarre. And Carr says, OK, let's begin. But then they also call Violet a leash. So I think there's also, I think there's just generally like a few options that are very tactical, like 1 Violet and Zaden can't beat. Like they are so formidable to the Venom that the Venom are like, we have no choice but to get them, whether it's just Zaden or Violet.

1:14:36 Like I think they probably assume that it's a package deal. Last time those two signets operated on the other side, like we were screwed. And so we need to get them. That could be like a very simple explanation to like violets actually the one that they're after. They just know that Satan is the easiest way to get her because we know that Violet's signet is currently the only one we're aware of that can intrinsically kills venom with a strike.

1:15:00 And then I think there's another option that I just like don't, I didn't have time to read into enough about, but I think there's like a more complex potential here, which is that something in our history that we don't know about because the archives don't have texts more than 400 years old. And everything before that has like multiple editions, multiple translations, like so much opportunity to be like tainted about the specific combination of Violet and Zaden, power wielding, shadow wielding, mind reading and mind walking.

1:15:30 That's crucial to restoring the balance of the world and banishing them for good. And I just like, I think there's also just definitely the potential of there's something we can't even think of at this point based on what we know. Absolutely, Yeah. I mean, all of this is limited by what we did. Yeah.

1:15:46 I mean, it's an interesting idea. We don't think this is the case, right? But we know that there are 6 more powerful signets right there. There are the original 6 powerful signets. Right now, Zaden has two signets. Violet has two signets. And you're about to go to What if they're all six? So let's pull on it, right? Like if, if we find out that somehow nail in is a relative, which I don't currently believe, but if that were the case, then OK.

1:16:16 And if scales first rider is a relative, like could there be 3 per? I don't know. So like if OK, that's awesome. And this Taran has been alive for 100 years, 100 years. Segal is 50 years younger and has had three riders. Violet is his second rider. Bullshit. I'm called bullshit on that. Sorry, Rebecca. Like, no way.

1:16:39 So it might be daolating. Be someone else. We don't know. Yeah. I mean, that could be a way to get a third signet. And we know the conversation with Liam is unexplained, right? Like that is fucking weird. That is unexplained. I am not lying that it's just saying dear death hallucination in the world with magic. I'm not and gods.

1:16:58 So yeah. I mean, I don't know, maybe there is 1/3 signative play here. I don't know how Zadan gets a third segment unless the relic, another relative, a play, or the relic. I don't know. I don't know about that. But I think there's a combination of them that matter. It matters a lot whether one or both of them are on certain sides. Like that's the vibe that I'm getting. Like why?

1:17:19 Like we haven't seen the Venom recruit this aggressively. Why not? Berwyn is going after Zelen. Theophany is going after Violet. Like I guess my question is why only dreamwalk in Zaden's dreams? Why doesn't Berwyn try to recruit Violet the same way? You know, like. Because Violet can kill him in her dream. I don't.

1:17:39 Know, Do they? I don't know. We don't know what they know. I mean, it seems to me that they know what Pancheck knows. Right. But Pancheck doesn't know that say that's and it's in sick. Yeah, they definitely have if well, OK, the you could definitely kind of read minds. She can definitely read something. I mean she looks at everyone and says exactly what they are as soon as she lays eyes on them.

1:17:57 Yeah, and she knows Boat, but he has a crush on Violet. So like the question is, is that a theophony thing or is that all then and thing? If it's an all then and thing that they will know that Zaden is a mind Walker because Bergeron and Zaden have faced off before. Yeah. And I, I mean, we also know, right that then in our collective mindshare to some regards could be someone true, Yeah.

1:18:17 So does someone truly have to have a certain signet to wield it? Or like are there some signets where they can basically just like does the acquisition of 1 signet make the collective group stronger? Interesting. I mean, I think Berwyn's the only one who can mind walk. Like, I don't think that's a shared power. All right.

1:18:37 I think we should move on to the we're. Digressing. We're digressing. OK, so the last question that we asked ourselves is why Zaden and Violet? And so there's a lot to say here, like I'll just start with kind of the basics and we can go kind of as deep as as we want to Zadan and Violet. I, I feel like some English majors are going to come for me in the comments when we talk about this.

1:19:00 But like, I think that Zadan and Violet are foils and Rebecca loves to create very like literal ways of showing this. We know that Violet is lightning. Violet is light lightning. Zadan is dark shadows. Violet is warmth and light and love. Zadan towards the end of Onic Storm is described as Ice. Violet mind walks Zadan and reads.

1:19:20 Violet creates power, Zaden now drains it. Violet can kill Venin, Zaden becomes one. And this is like a reach. But Violet is silver and Zaden is Onyx. And we know that Endarna's eggshell is a gradient of silver to Onyx from Onyx storm when they give up the egg shell. We also know that the last time we just talked about this, a shadow and a lightning wielder fought side by side. They drove the venom back for hundreds of years. So I choose to believe that like Fate Oracle's prophecy, like whatever it might be, brought Zaden and Violet together because there would not be another combination of Ryder and Venin that could work together to restore balance in the world. There would be no other Venin, I

1:20:03 think, that would have fallen in love with the Rider as a human. Fallen in love with the Rider that has the innate ability to kill him, would train her on how to find him and kill him, and then retain his love for her after he turned. We all know. That Zayden to date has done his best work from living inside the beating heart of the enemy and I genuinely believe that the combination of the two of them, like their love. Honestly, this goes back to like is love. The answer is going to be the answer to everything. I think this also can get into some of the God stuff. But like in the in the vein of prophecy, like we hear Zaden say very early on, I've been yours for longer than you could ever imagine.

1:20:45 Why would he say that? Like it was way too early to say that. And so I think there's a lot more there. But the the crux of what I'm getting at is I think that the combination of the two of them is going to be the answer. And I know that there's other stuff that that Asher has kind of pulled up around Mira, and I know that Lilith prepared. And so there's definitely other people who come into play, but it seems like we've been set up very well for if Violet is the weapon, she's about to get an inside look. And then I think where the gods come into play personally is more about the matter of saving their lives. Like, I think without the gods, we would have a story where like Zaden dies or like Zaden tells

1:21:25 Violet how to destroy all then and then like then and are destroyed. But we know that Violet is touched by Dune for sure because of what we learned on Real and the fact it's confirmed by the fact that she can wield that dagger, right, and kill Theophany like the priestess says. Like, yeah, only those only are touched by the gods. They should wield their wrath.

1:21:43 Their wrath. Yeah, and we also know that she should feel a pull to Temple, but she never did. Instead, she felt a pull to Zaden and we hear Zaden being compared to Dune. Love how we're just saying, citing things you and I have said previously as fact. Like that's just, we just know. Wait, what did I say?

1:21:59 We know, I said. We know she feels OK, fine. We know that she doesn't feel a pull to temple and that the priestess thinks that she should. She never did. And we hypothesize that she feels a pull to Zaman. And we also hear Zaman being compared to dude an awful lot by Violet very early on. In Iron Flame we hear Violet think I look up the wrath.

1:22:20 I look up at the wrath of Dune in the form of gold flecked Onyx eyes. He's also referred to as an avenging Angel, messenger of the Queen of the gods, so also referencing Malik and Mari both. And in Onyx Storm, we also hear it's one step past Fury, as though Dune herself has stepped into his eyes and now peers back at me.

1:22:40 And then of course there's our favorite, which is the infamous reference of Zaden being elevated to deity, which happens that heated happens at a heated moment. We also know that he absolutely loses his mind at Violet's hair in particular, which is a clear symbol of Dune, and he like has made multiple references to worshipping her.

1:23:00 So we don't really know anything about the role of men in the temple, but it almost feels as though Zaden has been touched by one if not multiple gods and has resulted in the two of them feeling a call to worship each other rather than a temple. We have talked a lot about Zaden Violet being parallels to Warwick and Lira but I I wonder if it's actually a parallel to Dune and Malik. I know we talked about Dune and loyal a lot because of love and war but they're both goddesses.

1:23:27 Like maybe they had a love trope? Like hopefully the gods are LGBTQ friendly like I don't. Know and Rebecca's world, yes. But in I mean here's why I think that Malek and Dune are going to end up being the important ones one in in the continent. I don't even know how to pronounce like the external name for the continent.

1:23:45 The temple of Malek and Dune are the biggest individual God temples except Amari who's like the main 1A priestess of Dune asks Violet if she chose her path. And then when Violet says I chose my life she says then it's good we didn't complete her dedication. Which means that Violet is not on the path of Dune at that time. So we both know that I think that Malik is the other who curries her favor.

1:24:08 I think we disagree on that, but I think that that is like a clear allusion to another God, if not Malik. OK. And the reason that I think it's Malik is in Onyx Storm towards the end when she's presented with the dagger, it's written by the priestess. A gift from one servant of doom to the other to another.

1:24:26 I must warn you, only those touched by the gods should wield their wrath. I will pray to her capital H that she lowercase S need not use it to avoid reacquainting herself with the other who curries her favor. Her path is still not set. I hear that and I hear two things. One, she's hoping she doesn't have to use this to avoid death, and death is Malik.

1:24:52 Reacquainting. Reacquainting not. Seconding, but she's met Malik. Before reacquainted, yes. I don't think you're wrong, I love it. No, my last point, my last like kind of unhinged. This isn't quite crackpot in my opinion, but my last reason that I think that Malik is the other and also that violins in our parallels to Malik and Dune. I don't think it's coincidence.

1:25:19 If you look at a map of this world, the Venens conquered territory or targeted territory expands around the Bay of Malik. Like the Barons and Breivik are conquered around the Bay of Malik. And then on the other side of the Bay of Malik are the islands, which are also drained for the most part. Like, I don't know, I feel like I just went down like a slight rabbit hole live.

1:25:41 But basically I think Zayn and Violet are foils. I think they're a unique combination that can bring down the Venn. And I also think that their allegiance to specific gods who may be in love with each other will save them. OK. I think that was excellent, like truly wonderful. Thank you for that. I'll be just realized as we were talking, the reason Zayda says you're the only one who can kill me, it's because he's about it. It's not because he's Aiden.

1:26:08 It's because she's the only one who can kill Venand. Yeah. Holy shit. My heart is broken. I didn't realize that. Thank you for making that clear to me. Devastating. Oh, my God. It's back of the book killer. I I had not put that together. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Ronnie. Great. Mostly Rebecca.

1:26:26 Rebecca, I don't think you're wrong. I totally think it could be Malik. Like, yeah, it can absolutely be Malik. I kind of hope it's Malik that's more interesting if it's Malik, think. And I, and again, I've seen a lot of theories going around this week that he starts calling her love because he needs to remind himself that he's in love with her. I kind of think that's not true.

1:26:44 I think he knows he's in love with her. Even at the end when we're getting his point of view, he says I love her. That's all I know. So I do think there's still something with loyal. I think we're definitely getting more. Look for there definitely is. There's no way we just like skipped an entire island and we hear love all the time and oil does not come into play and I wonder so.

1:27:06 If I'm an Irid and I hate war and I choose peace, I'm going to live on the island of the goddess of I don't like. That's just in my mind. Yeah. Which would that make? Would that comprise of all of the gods then for the two of them? No, because vinyl, yeah. We we are going to do a little gods episode. Like we're going to truly unpack this. These are just teasers.

1:27:30 Yeah. So my other thought, which occurred to me while we were having this podcast episode, again, this might be evident to some people. The theory is that I and Dharna has severed the bond between Taryn and Segal so that Zaden can leave and go do whatever it is that he needs to do with the three other people who are missing and the dragon eggs. Assuming they have the dragon eggs, we'll get into what we think that is not in this episode. I think we also need to think about that scene with Riddick where Violet tells him that Zaidan has been in and Riddick says someone needs to protect her when you turn because they will come for her because the easiest way to kill you is to kill her, right?

1:28:12 So it's not just, it's not literally so that they can leave, it's so that Violet is safe and Violet is protected. So question on that slight. Interjection because it is related to Satan and Violet and like their bond. Do we think that's still true now that Satan is Vennon? Like I I think with relation to specifically the fact that this whole trope has been about the fact that she's bonded to Taryn.

1:28:36 Taryn would die, Scale would die, and then Zadan would die. Like I don't know if that holds anymore, but it could still hold for other reasons. Like do you think that's still valid that they would kill Violet to try to kill Zadan? I don't, yes. I think they would think that. Would it work? I don't know.

1:28:50 But I think that people would think that people would think that killing Violet will kill Zadan because of their Dragons bond, especially now that she's more. Powerful, but Berwyn tells Panchek that he can channel to replace the magic that Panchek would lose from his dragon right in the last. I don't know whether it's the last chapter. So that's good point.

1:29:09 I just kind of assumed Handshack was dead because Barwood kills his dragon. I don't know, I. Don't know either. We saw that they killed a dragon with a dagger, and I think at that point he says killed. His own dragon. Yeah, he killed. I thought that. Kills his that kills his own dragon. Way back though, but at the end of Onyx Storm, they he sings, Zayden freaks out.

1:29:31 He's like, holy shit, that guy just killed a dragon with a dagger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the dagger and the dragon desiccates and he then says, do you see what happened that's about to happen to your dragon? You're going to have to channel to replace the magic you lost. So basically what I'm saying, and we already this is accepted as fact, is if your dragon dies in your venom, you don't need to die. But maybe now that that bond is broken or we think the bond is broken, scale would survive as well. I don't know anyways, but we're in the middle. So.

1:29:56 So I think you might be right. I think it might not actually happen, but I think people would think it would happen. People would think it. Yeah, that's fair. And they would go after her. Yeah. So I think that's just another way of looking at the bond. But I mean, I think the question still is if Violet and Satan are mates, which their Terran follows the mates, they can fully read each other's minds. Like, they are just so intertwined. Like, there's a lot of evidence that they are mates. Yeah.

1:30:20 Is that bond broken or is it not because they didn't know it was there? Like, do they have a bond independent of their Dragons? And does that mean that that bond is not broken and that is how they eventually find each other? And then does that mean that actually Violet isn't it if he dies, Agent does die still?

1:30:38 Yeah, maybe. I mean, I do think mates, just mates being brought up, like knowing Rebecca, I'm like I'm locked in. I'm like, what is this going to mean? It's going to mean something. It's. Got to mean something. It's it's stupid for it to just be for the Dragons and not to matter for humans. Like it's, yeah, like it's, it's going to mean something. The only other thing they're described as alchemy. So two times they were described as becoming something entirely new together.

1:31:02 Once is in Deverelli when they're in the bookstore. She describes, she says, like, what you call magic, we call you can be the, like, creation of two substances or the unification of two substances, at least something entirely new. Like you guys. She literally says, like, you too. And then there's one time where finally it's like, if all of it hadn't happened, would we still be us? Or is the miracle of our relationship the result of a precise commentary foundation of tragedies that broke us both so completely that when we collided, which sounds a lot like an atomic reaction to me, right, we became something entirely now.

1:31:33 So it's that idea again. There's something new that the combination of the two of them has never been seen before in the 600 year, I guess more than 600 years, but in the 600 years since the unification and before Llewellyn says to Violet, I hope you 2 will figure out the balance between it all. I think that leads into your theory that him being Venom and her being not Venom is a Ying Yang balance thing for sure.

1:31:59 And then there's gravity, right? So she refers to him as gravity so many times and she doesn't Corden where like she's like, I find him in the room because he's my gravity. Like there's just so I I locate him within a heartbeat because he's the center of my gravity. I can't make a stop. I don't want to. You're my gravity.

1:32:16 Nothing in my world works without me. She says her gravity shifts. Like when she finds out something new about him. She says my gravity shift. She also uses that term when she finds something new with Asher, which I think is interesting but not something we necessarily need to talk about in this pod. The openly thing I'm going to bring up with the gravity thing is the epigraph in Iron Flame in Shafter 30. Everyone thinks most Rider cadets die from dragon fire. Truth be told, it's usually gravity that gets us. So, Rebecca, do you want us fucking dirty? Yeah, wow, that's great.

1:32:47 Hold on. I need to write that down. Also, what makes? Well, no, that's Poles. But hold on, I'm going to add one thing as a little silver lining because I looked at the acknowledgments from Iron Flame, or maybe it was Onyx Storm. I think it was Iron Flame. Rebecca says thank you to my husband Jason for being my gravity. So once again, I don't actually, she's do us dirty if she's describing more funds in that way. But like, I don't know, man.

1:33:13 I don't know. Well, I think to that that epigraph and that like parallel of her referring to Zadan as gravity and then gravity being what kills us does not make me think that Zadan's bad, It just makes me think that Zadan is like the demise of Violet. Yeah, like Violet. Exactly. No, I don't necessarily think Zadan is the one who kills her. Yeah, look, don't want her to die, God willing. But like, Max is in here and this is clearly intentional and a word choice by Rebecca.

1:33:41 Like she is fucking with us. And to be fair, it doesn't say gravity that kills us. It says gravity that gets us. But I don't know. She could have. And like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if. Violet and Zayden. On that happy note. Crackpot corner. Free cog corner. My brain free cog corner.

1:34:01 Yeah, I mean, I you got you. You said It's really pointing to me towards Berwyn being Grandpa. Yeah. Tan arms, youthful face, sort of tearing door. I know it's not that crazy. I don't think of a crazy theory this week. You're much better at the crazy theories than I am, honestly. Well. It's because I literally just think of things with absolutely no evidence and that makes them crazy.

1:34:20 Like you had evidence for yours, which makes it intrinsically not crazy. Yeah. But we almost got to mine just now. We've talked about before, right, The fact that there's tons of references to Violet being the death of Zaden. You just pointed out my first reference for Zaden being the death of Violet. We also have a quote from Zaden where he says I would be more than willing to let you burn me and. That written down too.

1:34:54 Too Violet. And Darna says and will not let them burn you. Another Zadan Darna parallel, right? Right, right. And we've heard Zadan say multiple times, I'll meet Malik at your side. I like, and I think this this theory came to me because I was literally racking my brains for any way that Zadan could be saved because you know that my biggest fear with this series is that Zadan is unsavable.

1:35:18 Like he's just on this downward spiral that like maybe he'll save everyone, but I don't see a way in which he would be saved. And I think that Violet and Zaden die potentially Drakara style by Andarna intentionally, right? They meet Malik together. Maybe they meet Asher if he's if he's there and learn everything that he knows.

1:35:37 Because Asher has said like, hey, I've only told you half of what you need to know. Like you only have half what you need to know. She either needs to go find out herself, which may be the last two books, or she needs to talk to Asher somehow. And then I think that when menders turn, they become resurrectors, like menders with unlimited power who become Ben and become resurrectors.

1:35:57 And so either a mender or a combination of Naolan and Brennan again brings them back to life, and Zayden comes back as human. So I OK, I completely I've had this theory too. I guess this should have been my crackpot corner theory. I think I was kind of saving it for the guys, but. We have so little.

1:36:15 No, I I think you're totally wrong. I think we have so much like like my I think Paul Malik, the collector of souls, right? Yeah, So implies to I think my only difference is I don't think Violet. I think Violet meets Malik, but I don't think she's dead. I think she literally meets Malik. She says so many times when I meet Malik, when I meet Malik, when I meet Malik, I think I think she will literally meet Malik. Maybe because she's touched by him. That gives her like a life and the reacquaintance that reacquainted thing, right?

1:36:46 Like, I don't know. Is she a reincarnated soul? Like, what is she? Well, that's an itch interesting angle that I had thought about. But like so like I think she's met Malik. I think she will re meet Malik and I don't think it means that she dies. I definitely I think maybe before ends if they didn't die.

1:37:02 But if you go back to 4th Wing, there is so much resurrection talk. Yeah, it could be a worker. Situation like Brennan is a miracle worker. Like, yeah, Brennan has now brought himself back from the dead, and Mira effectively back from the dead. Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I don't think it's crazy.

1:37:22 I I think I've even texted you that I thought this was like, I think I told you, I think they literally meet Malik. I don't know, Maybe I didn't. Maybe I thought about it and they decided. Not to if they meet, you said that they meet Malik, but I think like Zaydan saying I'm willing to let you burn me means that somehow Violet is actually responsible. I'm more than yeah.

1:37:39 I'm more than willing to let you burn me. I I And maybe it's Harry Potter, you know, maybe it's Harry Potter setting us up for this being the thing. Like, OK, you need to fix your soul. You die and then come back and your soul is full. But I, I totally, I totally think that this is possible. I think this is being set up. I think Liam set us up for this.

1:38:02 I mean, maybe now one's involved. But I do think Brennan died. He definitely died. Brennan is resurrected. His last name means resurrection. Yeah, it's just a question of like, how? Like if mending yourself is incredibly complex then like how did you literally save your own life? I think Violet brings him back.

1:38:20 I don't think it's Brennan. I don't know how but. Maybe my maybe my like actual theory is just that Zayden dies and I don't really know how he comes back but I think he has to. Like I don't think there is going to be a way to repair his soul without meeting Malik. I mean, he says multiple times that Violet has his soul too, which we didn't really talk about at all.

1:38:42 Yeah. We haven't talked about what it is, but it's because we agree on what it is, I think. It's his soul. It's his soul. Yeah, I mean it. Makes me so sad. It could, it could be that he dies and because she has his soul, he can come back. It could be that Malik has his soul and she has to go negotiate with Malik to get his soul back.

1:39:03 But they do call Malik, I forget the exact words, but it is like the God of the dead and collector of souls, which implies to me he has all of the Venice souls. Yeah, yeah. I think he dies. I think he dies. I think you're right. I think he dies. I think he sort of Tyrion baby kills him maybe. Maybe Andarna kills him.

1:39:22 Well, the other thing, the other reason that I thought maybe it would be Andarna is because she has like we know that her first fire killed a venom. We know that her future fire did not kill Theophany. But she, I think in as many words said, I know that my flame like alters the venom. She didn't say kills them exactly.

1:39:40 She says alters. Yeah, yeah. Then like, is she part of the equation somehow? Right. Does she we end up with Zadan's soul and then alter it? Yeah. Or is she able to burn only? Oh my God, what if it plays out like this? Violet owns Zadan's soul, but she does not have it. Malik has it. She has to go to Malik. And Malik won't give Zadan his soul because Zadan sacrifice it. But he'll give it to Violet and then Violet takes it and then Andarna alters it and then they bring back Zadan. Yeah.

1:40:13 Which is why when like when the priestess looks at Zadan is like maybe you favor favor another God. Like I think it I don't know, it's not Dune because they're on umbrella. Like it's got to be the other one. Whoever. That is, I. Don't know. I said, but yeah, yeah, I I want to be proven wrong every week.

1:40:33 Every week tell me I'm wrong. No, I think they, I think they meet. They have to go to Malik. I just. Can do so without. Dying. I think they can. I I think they can't. I think they have to die. I think Zaden has to die. And I think Violet might get a pass. I don't know why spare. Violet but like then the question is called like, who do we lose? Because like we're not going to end. This is not going.

1:40:52 To be, you know what I think dies. You know, I think Taran dies. I know, but that's how it comes at work. Then GAIL dies. Not if their bond is broken. Yeah, well, this. I have another crackpot theory on that. So we can save that for the. Gods, episode something. All right, I think we should wrap it up.

1:41:11 What are you reading right now? Yeah, I forgot that. We were going to do this. Okay, Yeah, I thought. This might be a fun section when we. Talk about other things in our lives that are very asteroid because we can't just read this book over and over again. And yet. So I am reading. I just started Intermezzo by Sally Rooney, who I know is kind of a controversial author. I'm enjoying it so far.

1:41:32 I like it because there's good, it's well written sex scenes again, and like a lot of them very quickly, which was kind of surprising, but without any of the fantasy, which is kind of nice because I feel like I can turn that part of my brain off. Like, OK, I don't have to pay attention to every little detail. There's nothing like there's definitely politics in there. It's definitely like a more intellectual book, but I almost feel like I don't have to read it as closely, so I'm enjoying that.

1:41:57 That's good. That book came out a while ago. I'm not the first to read that by any means. What about you, Ron? My life has been taken over by the combination of this podcast and the rereads it requires. And work, but I think I'm going to SO I was in the middle of tower of dawn when Onyx storm came out and so I like took a hiatus from tower of dawn read all of just for for listeners and for Abby because she's not read a tower of Dawn is a book in the throne of Glass series. It's the second to last book like chronologically, not including like the prequel that was released after the fact. So I was in the middle of that, I read that I finished it after Onyx Storm kind of as like a warm hug, and then started and finished Kingdom of Ash, which

1:42:41 left me in absolute ruin, which was not what I needed after Onyx Storm. No. And so I had to take a break. But I think I'm going to pick up Quicksilver by Kelly Hart. I like going into books cold. So I don't really know much about the plot other than the fact that it's a Fey based magic system and that I'm told the main character is Zaden esque. So it's also an incomplete series. So I may be actually digging my own grave here, but the next book comes out in the fall.

1:43:12 Are you ready to be heard again? No, but I also can't like read something. Like right now because I'm so. Deep in things that have hurt me, like I can't find it in me to spend time reading something that I'm not that invested in. I think the only way out is through. I totally agree with it. Like I still need.

1:43:32 It's so funny reading the Sally reunion book. I'm like I. Need a book that will completely consume me. But it needs to be nothing to do with fantasy because every time there's a different fantasy book I'm also reading right now, but it doesn't have to do with Dragons. But every time I read it, I'm like, wait, where are the Dragons?

1:43:49 What's going on right now? Like, I just can't. I can't disconnect Onyx Storm from other fantasy worlds in my brain right now. So I need to, like, pivot but still be emotionally invested. Yeah. All right. Well, OK, until next time. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to our crazy theories. We hope you.

1:44:07 Agree with them, but if you don't agree with. Them let us know. e-mail us. We enjoy the discourse. Yeah, we do.