Sense & Sensibility (2026), plus Fatherland and Whalefall | #1086

0:21 Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. See any standard 2D movie, anytime, with no blackout dates or restrictions. Sign up now on the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code FILMSPOT26 to receive 15% off.

0:45 What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today? You're not interested in art? No.

0:50 Well, look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.

0:55 From Chicago, this is Film Spotting. I'm Adam Kempinar.

0:58 And I'm Josh Larson.

0:59 His little hand's missing. You go.

1:07 Forgive me.

1:08 I'd refer it.

1:08 Eleanor Datwood.

1:10 Jane Austen's second best-loved novel, Sense and Sensibility, has a new adaptation in theaters. It stars Daisy Edgar Jones.

1:17 We've got a review, plus Fatherland, and the scuba diver swallowed by a whale thriller, Whale Fall. That and more ahead on FilmSpotting.

1:37 Welcome to Film Spotting. Josh, I'm wondering if Austin Abrams is getting typecast. This is three movies in a row now where he seems to be playing a character who is always in the wrong place at the wrong time. In Resident Evil, a very unlucky delivery driver. We were first introduced to him as a drug addict who busts into the wrong house. Here he's swallowed by a whale in Whale Fall. I was also envisioning him, if we ever get a revival of Scooby-Doo and you know it's coming at some point, he just seems like he's destined to play Shaggy. Is he a Shaggy-like character in Whale Fall?

2:15 Boy, I like that. I think he's a little quicker than Shaggy, I would say. Maybe a bit of a quicker wit. What about wolves too, Adam? He was a hapless guy in wolves. So I think you're onto something. That was how we might first introduced to him. Yeah. Yeah. Before we knew who he was, he jumped off the screen there. Yeah. He might want to look for, I don't know, maybe the next sense and sensibility Abrams will want a part in that to shake things up.

2:44 Okay. You caught up with whale fall and you will share your thoughts later in the show. We were both at the Chicago International Film Festival last weekend, and among the things we both caught up with was Pavel Pavlikovsky's Fatherland with Sandra Huler. That's out now. Pavlikovsky, the director of 2013's Ida, an Oscar winner for Best Foreign Language Film, and 2018's Cold War. That earned him a Best Director nod.

3:09 We also have results from listeners' ranking of the most anticipated titles to be released before the end of the year, or we could just say their ranking of the fall movies. We did a fall movie preview. I'm calling it now Doomsday. It's going to be a bomb, just straight up bomb, Josh. Oh, wow.

3:27 Now, wait, do you mean in the poll or at the actual box office?

3:31 I think the implication here is supposed to be that because of our poll, using it as a barometer, it's going to tank at the box office.

3:39 Okay, I guess we'll see.

3:40 I don't know if we can actually go that far, can we? A reminder that Film Spotting is now a video podcast. You can watch us talk over at youtube.com slash filmspotting. First up, Sense and Sensibility 2026.

3:54 It is bewitching.

3:56 The idea of one's happiness depending entirely on another person.

3:59 It is not always possible.

4:01 Your sister seems happy.

4:02 Yes.

4:03 Sucks.

4:03 Spirit is all too rare. Adam, there are about the same number of Jane Austen feature film adaptations as there are James Bond movies.

4:13 Hmm.

4:14 I bring that up because while they represent very different genres and movie going experiences, I find myself processing my enjoyment of all those types of films in similar ways. You've got narratives, characters, and rhythms that are so familiar. I tend to judge them based on whether or not these films offer something distinct within all that familiarity. So for example, Skyfall, I recall that less as a Daniel Craig installment, and for me, it's more of a Roger Deakins highlight reel. What of the latest Sense and Sensibility, adapted by screenwriter Diana Reid and directed by Georgia Oakley?

4:57 This time around, sisters Eleanor and Marianne Dashwood are played by Daisy Edgar-Jones and Esme Creed-Miles, respectively. And Eleanor and Marianne, along with their younger sister and their mother, must fend for themselves after being booted from their family mansion in the wake of their father and husband's death. Does salvation lie with a dashing stepbrother-in-law, played by George Mackay, and an amorous new neighbor, played by Frank Delane? I'd argue The Measure of a Good Austin adaptation is that, even if you know the answer to that plot question... you still come away with an appreciation for how the movie presents it. So what was your experience with Oakley's Sense and Sensibility, Adam? What should it be remembered for within

5:44 the Jane Austen subgenre?

5:46 First, I do love this comparison to the Bond movies. I think we even did at one point our top five Bond movie tropes. And I would love to think this through in more detail. Maybe we will eventually. We'll get some feedback from listeners. I'm going to say the equivalent to Q showing Bond new gadgets. You know how we get that in every Bond movie? That's the ball scene.

6:13 You know you're going to get a ball scene in every Austin adaptation, right?

6:17 We do here, yeah.

6:18 Instead of the Bond girl, we're going to get the Austin guy who's brooding, who's principled, but unfit for love until he's the best fit for love. Or maybe there's another one out there someone can enlighten me because I'm not sure I'm the most credentialed as I'm going to now explain. I'll provide a little inside baseball here, though we probably have said it before. The only part of our conversations of these shows that we coordinate ahead of time, or at least the reviews that we coordinate ahead of time, is that we will typically give the other person an idea of what our prompt will be. You're a professional.

6:58 You write your reviews before you come on to talk. So usually give me at least 15 hours. I usually give you about 15 minutes if you're lucky because I'm writing. I'm scrambling right up until it's go time and the record light turns on. When I saw that the prompt was going to be related to Austin Adaptations, I thought, great.

7:22 What am I going to do with this? First, Josh is now forcing me to admit on air that I'm the world's only English major who has never read any Austin. Second, even when it comes to the movies, I feel like such a dilettante. I looked at Letterboxd. They have a list. Films originally written by Jane Austen. They have 52 movies.

7:47 I've seen a lowly five. But I can make that six if you count Bridget Jones's Diary, which I do. Seven, if you really stretch and count with Stillman's Metropolitan, which some people do count that as a very loose adaptation of Austin, just as his love and friendship is an adaptation.

8:10 And a quick point about those numbers. Yeah. When I said there's just as many Bond films, obviously there's what, less than 30 Bond films. I was mostly looking at those strict feature film adaptations, not like the miniseries and the Yeah, the Austin universe, when you look at all of those, it is enormous.

8:28 Yeah, I found another website just devoted to Austin screen adaptations, and it had titles on there that Letterboxd didn't have. So who knows how big that list actually is. Then I went to see the movie, because you sent that to me yesterday afternoon, and I didn't go see the movie until just last night. And within the first 15 seconds, I had an answer. And that answer just... That answer just kept getting reinforced, and maybe some other answers appeared as the movie went along. What did help is that just last week, I did some long-needed homework, and I finally watched Sense and Sensibility 95, even though that did violate my longstanding principle of wanting to go into movies that we discuss whenever possible without any preconceived ideas or

9:18 points of comparison. Breaking news.

9:22 Ang Lee.

9:23 Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet, Hugh Grant, a way too old Alan Rickman, doesn't matter. Lovely movie, just an absolute delight as everyone in the world but me already knew. What distinctions, Josh, am I seeing in the opening shots of Esme Creed Miles rolling around in the tall grass in a slight reverie, the wind whispering by. I think there's even a bee or two buzzing around. So, you know, there are insects in this world and lots of animals that we see around.

10:03 Her hair is dark and wild. It's almost mangy throughout the film. Her clothes and her hands are anything but pristine. The sky, blue, The grass green, but not vividly.

10:21 So.

10:22 And as we move indoors and we meet the rest of the Dashwood family, you realize that all of this isn't an aberration, that Oakley is after an earthiness of rustic, unadorned presentation that portrays these characters and These unpretentious women in particular, naturalistically. And look, I love Winslet's perfect curls and how fastidiously and often colorfully costumed everyone is in Sense and Sensibility 95. I do. And in every other Austen adaptation I can think of. I love how fantastically sunny and bright the countryside always looks. I love how the dialogue is usually quippy and charming. All of this is why we go see Austin on screen. But I don't need to see another Sense and Sensibility like that.

11:19 It's 30 years later, so let's just do it again with different performers. No, I want a different vision. And I do think that's what Oakley has done. The cinematography is seemingly, I haven't done any research, but based on just watching it, it's seemingly all done via natural lighting. We have a lot of candlelit. that does make everything indoors and outdoors a little dark, a little drab, so be it. There are some great Austin lines or paraphrases, I'm sure, of Austin lines delivered well, but this is a movie that makes time for physical expressions of joy and of longing and of sadness more than the 95, definitely.

12:03 It really downplays the comedy of manners stuff, forsaking some easy laughs. And did you notice how even George Mackay's Edward, when he arrives, I'll go back to the costuming for a second, how baggy his pants are. He can be gorgeous and still have a shabbiness to how he's dressed. He's not wealthy, just as the Dashwood women aren't wealthy.

12:31 Notice the scene, Josh, when they have to move to the new cottage. The movie makes a point of showing us, and it is kind of a funny scene, right? Makes a point of showing us how arriving at this new cottage doesn't exactly feel like the salvation it seems to be in the 95 version. This is an enormous step down in terms of the type of life, the privilege that they are accustomed to. In 95, it doesn't really feel like a change or that much of a change from what they've been living. So this... This version, this approach doesn't necessarily compel you to want to be transported to this time and place to play dress up and clink tea glasses and fall in love. Maybe some will find that disappointing. Oakley's austere approach just drew me to

13:21 the characters and the stakes of their circumstances more.

13:25 Yeah, this sensibility is it's a costume drama that doesn't look or move. like a costume drama.

13:31 Well said.

13:32 You mentioned dress up and it's not playing dress up at any point. And I agree. I think that's to its credit. It's also one of the first things that jumped out at me. I described it as an earthy sensuality because all of those natural elements and some of the other things you mentioned are directly tied to the character's experience of this world. So you have frosted breath on window panes. You have bare feet in streams. There's a connection between the people and the environment that is incredibly palpable. This is a movie of textures, even remove the human experience of the outside world. Just think of like the time spent on book covers, let's say. The camera pouring over the texture because books are integral to

14:20 this family's life, right? Silver spoons, how it goes over the silver spoons and we get a sense of their value, what they mean to this family, and especially as that's being taken away. And there's the scene, this is more of a nature example, but a scene of Makai's character beginning to woo Eleanor and they're skipping stones over a pond as they do it. I think that's maybe the definitive moment for this earthiness that we're talking about in this Sense and Sensibility is that that sequence, that conversation is taking place Yes, those characters dressed as you described them, but also out in a pastoral scene that is beautiful in its way, but the nature is not playing dress up either. This is exactly the colors, the lighting is

15:11 as it would be. It's not trying to make it look prettier than it might actually be in this English countryside. So I think that's absolutely one of the distinct takeaways that you could pull from this. I'll throw out another one, and it's the one I arrived to more slowly as the film went on, and it's the one that the final shot in the movie, which I'm not going to give away, but it does emphasize this in a way I'll let viewers discover if they go see Sense and Sensibility. This, to me, for a long time seemed to be particularly boy crazy, just the way Eleanor and Marianne got so excited about these prospects or Eleanor downplays it, but you can sense her, her excitement underneath. Right. Um, and they,

15:59 the sisters spent a lot of time talking to each other and along with their mother and their younger sister about these men. And I was thinking, boy, for 2026, this, this feels awfully boy crazy. And I was missing what I saw in retrospect had been placed earlier. The primary relationship in this movie is between those two older sisters, Eleanor and Marianne. And there are increasing number of scenes to me that make that clear. Again, I love the final shot and how it relates to it. But I also think of, you know, a sequence, a great sequence after the sisters have had a dust up over these men and how they've been sharing information about their relationships.

16:43 You've described Marianne well. As you've described her, we can always get a sense of a wilder, more impetuous, passionate, emotional person. Eleanor, the oldest one, more reserved, practical, responsible. And there's a great exchange where Marianne is accusing Eleanor of not sharing her true feelings about her predicament with Marianne.

17:06 And Marianne yells at her, you know, when Eleanor's like, well, why didn't you push me?

17:10 Why.

17:11 I forget exactly what she's pushing her on, and Marianne just screams back, because you're always right.

17:17 I don't know. What is it now? If you love him, I shall endeavor to.

17:24 Well, I cannot deny that I think very highly of him.

17:27 You think highly of him. That I like him, that I greatly esteem him. Like him, greatly esteem him. Helena, use those words again.

17:37 I shall leave the room. That captured such... Not only so perfect for the moment, but the dynamic of their relationship and how when you do have an older sibling, perhaps, or maybe it's someone else, you have a relationship who tends to be right, but that doesn't mean that they hold that correct opinion or wisdom even healthily or politely towards you. And that's just one example of how many of the exchanges here are between, the best exchanges I found are between Marianne and Eleanor. And I honestly found myself rooting more for their reconciliation, as this story goes on, than either of them landing one of the guys. Yes.

18:22 And I think when that clicked for me, I realized, oh, this is what this movie is most interested in, actually, is these two. Now, I haven't seen the 95 since 95, so maybe you can tell me, having recently seen it, maybe that's an element... that's prominent there. Obviously, it's part of the original novel. I mean, the family dynamic is one of Austen's main interests. So this isn't something blazingly new, but it's an emphasis. I felt like it was a point of emphasis on Oakley and Reed's part as the screenwriter, that they were going to kind of look at this story, that was going to be the primary lens, how these two sisters related to each other.

19:00 I think that's absolutely accurate. And before I dig into that just a little bit more, I'll go back and say that I like when you bring up the texture of the books and you talk about the silver spoons, because I remember in the 95 how there's a major point made about the spoons and how the sister-in-law is already counting them because she's swooped in. But it really is more about that. The spoons are all about being yet another indicator of the sister-in-law's awfulness and them being deported from their place. And here... It has a little bit of a more nuanced meaning. And that with the scene with the rocks, like you said, where when he, when Edward holds out his hand in that scene standing by the water, which did for me echo similar hand

19:54 gestures in Pride and Prejudice 2007 that fans of that film will immediately understand. Different type of gesture, but still with the hand. It immediately... conjures a thought that, oh, this could be an expression of of real love that would be surprising in this moment. And is he expecting her to reciprocate and hold his hand? And just for a second, you think that, and maybe even she does, but of course she's handing him that rock, but more rocks to throw. But it gives, all of this stuff gives this movie a tactility that the 95 and other, I don't think of that. I don't associate that with other Austin films that I have seen. And in terms of the sisterhood aspect that is so central here, part

20:44 of the reason you get it, and I do think it's grounded early on, is in some of the visual choices I was alluding to earlier that Oakley makes. Did you catch that shot when the sister-in-law and the brother are arriving and the family unit, the three sisters and the mom, turn to the doorway to face them? And Oakley frames them perfectly in that doorway. The lighting from behind, the light shining through the door, but again, that natural lighting.

21:19 But she just gets them as they turn and they're in unison together. And they're stacked in such a way that you understand that no matter what challenge is now going to be ahead of them, and it is going to be a challenge and they know that, they are going to tackle it together. That is understood. And even then when you see them, maybe one is apart from them, there's a similar shot, different, but in terms of their unity, where I think Marianne is away, but it's the mom and Eleanor and Margaret. And the way she gets those tableaus, the three of them perfectly aligned with each other in a group shot, you understand how they are this unit.

22:05 And they always will be this unit. So I think that sisterhood is emphasized. But Josh, your question about the 95, having not watched it in a while, it's simply true, at least in My feeling having watched it a week ago, that that relationship is so central here, more so than the 95. And one of the ways we know that, or I know that is because Marianne is a more central figure here. She, and part of, part of this is the performance that we're going to talk about.

22:38 We have to talk about miles.

22:40 We simply do, but she is more of an equal. I think, in this film to Eleanor in a way that Winslet's character simply isn't in the 95. She is, of course, a major character. And yes, that comes from the original material. It has to. And their relationship is still central or still very important. And the reversal or the epiphanies those characters have, they're in all three. The source material, I'm sure they're in the 95. They're in this one, too. It's amplified here. I do agree with you.

23:18 I think Oakley is focusing on that more. And we see that in the fact that Marianne is just a more major figure, like the movie starting with her, the movie ending with her, all of the screen time that she gets. I was watching this movie, Josh, for a good chunk of the runtime thinking, I wonder if Daisy Edgar Jones, who I think is a very good actress, and I think she's very good here, is ever watching this movie at screenings thinking, I didn't realize that another actress was maybe going to steal this movie. And I don't mean steal it even in the way that we think about someone stealing a movie, like in a supporting turn.

24:00 I mean, as in there's a co-lead. Yeah, it feels that way. That is how she feels in this film. Some of that too goes back to, I think in the 95, there is such a disparity in age. and maturity between Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet as actors, and then their characters by extension, that she does feel subordinate in a way that you don't get with Edgar Jones and Creed Miles. And so that is where that equality comes through as well here. So to your point, I'll just say, Josh, that as I was watching it too, you're thinking about 2026 and sort of how this plays.

24:46 And what's so important is that all of these women do, and I don't really imagine this as spoilers, I will say all of these women have a goal. Sure, it is of finding a match. I suppose you could put it in those basic terms. It's also to be able to survive. It's to be able to simply live, right? Because the only way they can do it in this world is... To have a man's money in order to get by. But neither of these women are willing to do it just on anybody's terms. The entire point I have to imagine in the Austin, but I think is emphasized here over the 95, is that these women will not compromise their individuality or their ideals. Eleanor and Marianne's sense or sensibility, you might say, respectively, Josh, they will

25:46 not compromise that. And the movie shows that's a hard road that's fraught with obstacles, but they won't compromise. And so that integrity, I think, is just such an important aspect of this film. Yeah.

26:00 And that integrity comes with costs, clear costs, that beyond romantic ones, you know, there are societal and, yeah, basic how am I going to live costs to hold those compromises or to not make those compromises. Adam, let's take a minute to thank the FilmSpotting family. This is the largest source of support for the show. It keeps us doing what we've been doing for over 20 years now.

26:27 Thank you this week to family members Brian Falato in Tampa, Florida, and Chris Keeley in Kent, U.K., Brian found us when he went looking for podcasts after print publication stopped or reduced serious film coverage. A film Brian credits with becoming a cinephile, 2001, A Space Odyssey. A favorite book about films or filmmaking, David Thompson's The New Biographical Dictionary of Film.

26:53 That is a great one. I think you can probably see it right over my shoulder here on a shelf.

26:58 Chris Keeley writes, I've been listening to the podcast for over seven years now. It's like having two great friends discussing your favorite subject. I think film spotting madness swings it for me. It's like Christmas each year when it comes around. Favorite film spotting segment, see above, but I love the marathons and deep dives. Anything sci-fi, top five ticks all the boxes. A movie Chris credits for becoming a cinephile. Once Upon a Time in America, a favorite book about films or filmmaking, the good, the bad, and the multiplex by Mark Kermode.

27:28 Well, thank you, Chris and Brian for joining the film spotting family and for all those years of listening.

27:34 No letterbox handles, at least not at the time of printing these submissions, Josh. So unfortunately, can't follow them. We always do like to throw out the handles. If you do, Chris or Brian, have letterbox handles, let us know. We'll share them in future show notes. And you can learn more about joining the FilmSpotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. Your benefits include early and ad-free listening, a weekly newsletter, complete access to the FilmSpotting archive. You get access to the Discord page.

28:04 a monthly bonus show, and more, October's bonus episode. Is this the first time we've teased this, or did we mention it last week?

28:12 I feel like we mentioned it last week, yeah.

28:14 Is it? Yeah. The second time, it's the 20 to 2025, so best of the 2020 so far, but they have to have a Metacritic score of 90 or above. I think there are 55 titles to choose from. We are hosting that and Maria will officially tell us how to pronounce her last name, Maria Marchesini. That's what I'm going with for now until she corrects me. She is an Italian living, as you would deduce from the name, she is an Italian living in Kent, UK, been a longtime listener.

28:48 She was, I don't think she'll mind me saying, she was at first just a little apprehensive about doing the show. I managed to gently convince her to hop on with us guys. It will be a nice, fun, draft, and she's going to do that. We're recording next week.

29:04 This is her prize, right, for winning our family edition of Film Spotty Madness. So yeah, congrats to her, Maria. I'm pretty sure you will have a good time. And the idea you came up with, we're only going to be talking about the Cream of the Crop movie, so that will absolutely be fun.

29:20 One last bit of business, Josh. We do love ratings and reviews, especially on Apple Podcasts. So if you're You do listen, especially if you listen there and you like the show. Please do consider giving us a five-star rating and maybe a five-star rating and a review. Yes, believe it or not, even after doing this for 21 years, those ratings and reviews do matter. So we're going to single out this review now from a listener. MDF2001 left this review recently, Josh.

29:52 They call the film spotting listenership a family for a reason. It stems from the hosts, Adam and Josh, setting a tone of warmth, humor, intelligence, and respect. that ought to make any listener feel welcome, engaged, and comfortable. There's no highbrow snark or clickbait outrage here, just really good film analysis in the manner of a lively and respectful conversation among friends. The hosts' cinephile credentials are legit and their critical insights are incisive and clear. I frequently disagree with both critics, but I find I always learn more about a film or a genre, even as I formulate my disagreement in my mind. Film spotting is really the standard bearer for conversational film criticism in the podcasting world. I've sampled,

30:33 but ultimately drifted away from all the other competitors.

30:36 I didn't know Sam was going to put that in our script here, Josh, and now that it's read out loud, it feels very self-serving. Sorry, everyone, but But the point is, you don't have to write something that glowing. And we do thank you very much for those very thoughtful and we know honest comments. I happen to know who MDF2001 is from the FilmSpotting family and the Discord, Josh. So you don't have to write something like that, but we do appreciate any comments you might give us or any positive ratings. over at Apple Podcasts. Again, filmspottingfamily.com is where you can learn more about becoming a member of the Film Spotting Family. You know that if it's playing near you at a Regal Cinema near you, the movie you

31:22 have to catch up with if you haven't seen it already is You Can See Everything, the documentary about Elizabeth Holmes. Get ready for the show where we will finally discuss it. We Don't know exactly what that date is yet, but you know it's going to get the full film spotting treatment, so prepare for that. But Josh, Regal Cinemas also have the new A Talent for Murder with Helen Mirren that looks really interesting, and the 20th anniversary 4K restoration of Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette. What a treat it would be to see that movie again, like getting in a time capsule and and going back, a time machine, and going back 20 years and seeing that again on the big screen.

32:07 It may be a movie we have to revisit here at some point if we have a hole in the schedule, actually one worth discussing. All of those movies could be films that you can see for free with your Regal Unlimited membership. It's the movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Right now, Regal is offering our listeners endless movies for less You can sign up now using code FILMSPOT26 to get 15% off. You can see any standard 2D movie anytime, no blackout dates, no restrictions, and you also get 10% off all non-alcoholic concessions. So it's not just about saving money on tickets. Sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code FILMSPOT26. Again, that's FILMSPOT26 to

32:54 receive your discount.

32:57 Margaret, what happened?

32:58 How did I fall? Did I look graceful? What did he look like? You were there.

33:02 Did you not look?

33:03 I said not.

33:04 Why?

33:04 Because you already had a picture in mind. His courage and spontaneity are as revealing as any portrait.

33:10 Another answer to my question could easily be Esme Creed Miles as Marianne. Just say that's my takeaway.

33:16 A thousand percent.

33:18 Right. And I will say this about Daisy Edgar Jones is first to just admit she has the more maybe not difficult, but maybe thankless part, as I said, being the responsible one, right?

33:29 She's the straight woman here.

33:31 She is. Being the interior one who holds her own emotions closely. That's maybe why you mentioned, you know, the ball scene that we hope and know we're likely to get. That's maybe why I loved so much the scene where she is, Eleanor is at a ball with Edward and they get to dance. And he goes, grabs her as if it's his only chance at love in life. And she grabs him as if it's her only chance. And as much as we know of them at that point in the narrative about their backgrounds and Edward in particular, that's kind of what we believe too. And I just think Edgar Jones plays it so beautifully where this responsible older sister allows herself to get lost for a little moment.

34:24 There's a, a point where she actually closes her eyes. And that's something that Eleanor never does because she's the one watching out for both sisters. She's the one watching out for her mother. She doesn't feel that she can ever close her eyes. Right. But in this dance sequence, um, that's what she does. And I think that, uh, Makai and Edgar Jones have just an amazing chemistry together. Um, just like you're, you're just sighing for them both when, especially at the beginning where we don't know all the complications.

34:54 But Esme Creed-Miles, I mean, it's just, you said it, from the opening when she pops up in that field. And we don't really know which sister she is at this point. She's just, you know, we don't know who she is at all, actually. And she's immediately tying us into that earthiness and that sensuality. But she's not this sort of flighty, unaware, you know, younger sister floating through life.

35:20 She also brings a fierce spirit at that same, I think it's the same ball. No, it might be a later one in London, a later party where she calls out the ridiculousness of some of the social conventions and who can talk to who and when and these sorts of things. So she also brings that quality to the performance, which is this, this fieriness. And I think also of a moment where I won't say what causes her to say this, but She has a line that is in response to hearing devastating news to her mother, mama, my heart.

35:57 Yes.

35:58 And, you know, that in a costume drama like this, when you get a line like that, it can come across, it can be, it can feel like, let's go back to the plain dress up notion. It can feel like your brain plain dress up because, you know, it's, it's a phrase that we wouldn't necessarily hear today, but the way that Creed miles. This is what she does. She brings the slightest touch of modernity to her performance.

36:26 That's a great way to frame it.

36:28 It never pushes us outside of the time or place, but allows us as modern viewers to lock into her. And it's her line reading of that. And then the grimace that she delivers after saying it, which is as like, okay, the language might be a little unfamiliar to us, but that, that expression on her face, we know very well. I think she's incredible. I think it's one of the performances of the year.

36:54 It's not just one of the performances of the year. It's one of the performances of recent years. That's truly how I feel about it. I was stunned for the runtime of this movie. Marianne is however you want to describe her. She's all passion. She's all impulse. She's all romantic idealism. And Here again, I will say, I think Winslet's performance in the 95 is very good. But part of what she brings to that, and I looked this up, I think I'm correct on both accounts here. Winslet, when the filming started, was 19, turned 20 when it came out.

37:35 I think Creed Miles is 26. That's a pretty significant gap. And I think that probably shows in their maturity. Winslet does play Marianne with a bit of childlike wonder. almost like she can't control all of her impulses. That doesn't mean she's always out of control. That doesn't mean she's always immature, that she doesn't have fierceness to her. She absolutely does. But there is that childlike wonder that comes through that I think is a reflection of the counter that she is, the counterbalance to Thompson's maturity, to Thompson's sense, right?

38:13 And that is simply not what Creed Miles exudes. It It's just one of the most spirited performances that I can recall. There seems to be a life force exuding, seeping out of every pore, and her eyes literally seem to beam. But when she, like in the line you mentioned, Mama My Heart, when she needs to show Marianne's vulnerability and occasional immaturity, because she certainly doesn't have all the answers, it also never feels contrived, right? It never contradicts the power that she shows elsewhere. I love the word you use, sensual. Sensual, that I think matches this idea of this just tremendous feeling that you get from her, but it's also never sexual, right?

39:06 Sometimes you can be a character who feels very sensual because they're trying to give off this feeling of sexuality. They're using their body in a certain way. You're never getting that with this character either. But there is a sensuality.

39:19 It's tied to the texture thing, right? It's the sensuality of even the rocks or the book covers. It's the same sensuality.

39:27 And maybe this is the modernity part, Josh, where every line reading, every line reading, an emotional beat surprised me. There was always some nuance in voice, including that line you mentioned. There was some nuance in voice, in physicality, in inflection. In a bit of humor that she twisted into it in emotion that I just didn't completely expect.

39:54 And one aspect or one then byproduct of that that does work with this movie or makes the movie work even better because of this performance, because of the characterization and presumably some of the writing around the character then too, is that when the heart break element comes into play and the tragic, seemingly tragic turn, we can say that the movie takes, right? It gets very serious for a little while. I definitely felt that even though I know how it's going to play out, right? I definitely felt that I internalized that. And I, I bought it as a viewer way more than I did watching In the 95, it felt more modern here and believable, whereas in the 95, it felt a bit of an antiquated, melodramatic element where

40:51 I remember watching it thinking, I'm not completely buying why Kate Winslet's character is doing what she's doing right now, how we got to this point where all of a sudden this may be happening to her. It seems like this might be just one of those things that happens in these kinds of stories, and I'm just supposed to go with it. That's what I was telling myself. I just have to go with it and accept it. Whereas I didn't have to do any of that convincing here because the movie and the performance convinced me, right? It didn't feel like here. I'll use that word again with, with Winslet. It felt a little bit more like a childhood type of heartbreak that was contradictory within the turn that it takes the serious turn.

41:32 Sure.

41:33 That, that element doesn't, doesn't apply later. And I don't know if you know this, Josh, I was just trying to look up her age and figured out this bit of information. But as I was staring the entire movie, of course, we all are as we watch. But as I'm stunned this entire movie, looking up at this face and being surprised by all the nuance and the texture and the layers she's bringing to this performance. And I'm looking at those beaming eyes. I can tell you that something did feel both completely new. I've never seen this face before. I've never seen a performance like this before.

42:11 And something felt very, very familiar.

42:15 She's somebody's kid.

42:18 You don't know.

42:18 No, no.

42:20 Josh, as soon as I say it to you, you will go, of course. Okay. She is the daughter of Samantha Morton.

42:31 Okay. Yes.

42:32 It's plain as day. Her eyes in particular.

42:37 Interesting.

42:38 Her eyes in particular. It is Samantha Morton all over. the expressiveness of Creed miles is she, she, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, but she is completely her own, her own actress. Obviously I didn't feel in any way, shape or form. Like I was just watching Samantha Morton, but something is something's coming through in that, that expressiveness.

42:59 It is the eyes. Yeah. I agree with you of, you know, and I've seen a lot of Morton stuff. I, I didn't see anything that in terms of performance would make that connection, but I think it is in the eyes. Yeah.

43:11 Any other, I mean, I would just, we've.

43:13 Mentioned him a couple of times. I really, you know, there's, there are rankings of Austin men, the performances. I think Mackay really pulls it off here as Edward. I love how he is painfully reticent, but, but he's clearly besotted in those early scenes and the way he, he balances that is great. And then minor part, but here's, here's who someone else reminded me of, and I have not done deep research. I don't think there's any connection. But once they move to that smaller house, their jolly hunting neighbor played by Turlough Convery.

43:46 Who looks like Jack Black.

43:49 Come on. I know. The UK Jack Black. I know.

43:51 Right? Yeah.

43:52 And now that's probably sounds... I actually really enjoyed him. That probably sounds like it didn't come off well.

43:56 For a few moments, I thought it was Jack Black doing an accent.

43:59 I thought it was Jack Black.

43:59 Just for at least a minute.

44:01 Yeah. He's very amusing too. And then also, yes, there... Who is the... older actress. We've seen her in so many things. Fiona Shaw. Thank you. As Mrs. Jennings.

44:17 Yes.

44:18 The would-be matchmaker. It's kind of like one of those awesome... It goes back to the Bond thing, right?

44:23 Yes.

44:23 It's like, you know you're going to have a Bond villain of some sort. You're going to have the... Not nefarious. The meddling matchmaker. And here, Fiona Shaw having a lot of fun in that part. Yes.

44:35 I know that people listening to this are probably, especially those who adore the 95 are going to get tired of me making some comparisons. And I do want to be clear. These aren't backhanded compliments. I truly mean that I watched the 95 and I think it's great.

44:53 I love the fact that I remember loving it.

44:55 I love the fact that the 2026 is very different. And that's why I also think this is probably great. It's, it's up there for me, Josh. That's how much I liked this movie. It's going to be a contender for the top 10 of the year. That's how much I enjoyed it. And the fact is, I do believe that the heat, the restrained heat between Eleanor and Edward here is much hotter than what we get with Emma and Hugh Grant in the 95. It, It simply is. And it's moments like the one we talked about, skipping stones, but there's the scene later where they're just sitting near each other and the way they sort of turn towards each other in the museum and turn away from each other.

45:44 Just them being in proximity to each other generates the magic word with Austin, yearning, that you have to have. Honestly, it feels more one-sided on Thompson's side, I think, in the 95. So I'm going to give the advantage to this Eleanor and Edward in the, in the 26. And I think I'll just lastly say that I think there are, I think that there are a bunch of ways I have them in my notes. I will not go into them.

46:12 I think that there are a bunch of ways that the 26 version makes changes or departs from the 26, or even sometimes just makes subtle changes that either match in quality. Or improve upon what the 95 did. Almost every instinct that Oakley has here, I think, is right on. If I was going to question anything, it might be what I would call the... I would bring up the Rickman paradox. The Rickman paradox being that in the 95, you can't help but see... one of our great actors, right?

47:03 Alan Rickman, who at the time was 50, 49, 50, wooing or trying to woo this 19, 20-year-old. And it's often a very hard watch. But he's Alan Rickman, and he still is written as a very three-dimensional, interesting character. And so he's a fun character to watch. And in this new one, we get, the actor Herbert Nordrum, who is a sort of Rickman-lite, even down to the voice, right?

47:37 He seems to be channeling a little bit of Alan Rickman. And he's at least more age-appropriate, and that feels a lot better. That part of the relationship does feel much stronger to me and more believable. But at the same time, the character is not given nearly as much dimension or just simply as much screen time. is Rickman is given in the 95. And so then the relationship suffers for that a little bit.

48:04 Just to go back to your calling out that scene of the two of them of Eleanor and Edward in the museum. And it's another example of the thing you talked about with the family tableaus, just incredible blocking throughout of positioning. And this is crucial for, you know, any movie, which is going to take place primarily, despite a lot of scenes in nature, but primarily within close rooms and spaces.

48:28 and how people's relationships are communicated by their positions with each other. That's just exquisitely done with the two of them sitting on that bench together, but not together amidst the public where they're supposed to be, you know, demure about their feelings and how that is all managed is, yeah, another wonderful scene.

48:46 Sense and Sensibility is out now, pretty wide release. That means you have a chance to see it. If you haven't already, we would love to hear your thoughts on it. you can email us feedback at filmspotting.net. Josh, you are in Chicago. You might be planning later tonight or certainly later this week to go see a few more movies at the Chicago International Film Festival. I'm back in Iowa City.

49:20 I don't have that luxury, though we do both have the Refocus Film Festival coming up. I was in Chicago and got to attend four films this past weekend at the fest. I had the tremendous luxury of bringing 12 of my producing film criticism students to the fest and. we saw four really interesting, and I will say at minimum, good films. I'll get into that just a little bit more here in a second. We also had the wonderful opportunity to sit down with one Josh Larson over coffee ahead of one of those films.

49:56 Yeah, it was great.

49:58 It was. My students got to Got to pick the brain of a professional critic, get some insights. They needed to hear from a real expert after listening to me twice a week. So a fresh voice in the room.

50:10 I was going to say, sometimes any fresh voice will do. But no, they were amazing, great questions, really engaged students. So that was fun to do.

50:19 Before we actually set up the movie, we're going to talk about in a little bit more detail because it's the one of the four that I saw that you also saw. I will mention the four movies. that I caught up with there that myself and my students saw. The first one was a Costa Rican film called Love is the Monster. Worth seeing, absolutely. Fatherland was next. That's the one we're going to talk about next. Third up was a French film called Verage or Summer Drift. These films could not be more different. That was also very interesting and absolutely worth seeing if you have a chance to catch up with. I don't know what the release plan is for either Summer Drift or Love is the Monster, but keep an eye out for them. If we become aware,

51:05 we'll share that information. The last movie that we saw was the new Mike Lee movie, Tender Loving Care. It comes out, I think, December 11th. I had pretty high expectations based on some pretty good buzz coming out of the fest, and we also saw a lecture by Nick Davis called digging deeper into movies that gave us a great perspective on, on Lee's movies. And it was enlightening for us, even though we're very familiar with Lee's work, it was especially enlightening for my students. They had never seen, none of the 12 had seen a Mike Lee film.

51:41 So you can imagine you weren't able to stay for tender loving care. And I'm just going to go ahead and say it. It, it has to be up there with his best work.

51:53 Wow.

51:54 Okay. That's great to hear. It is that good. So a very encouraging fest, a very exciting fest just to be at for maybe two days or close to two days and seeing four films. The film that we had in common, Fatherland, is the new one from Pavel Pavlikovsky. It's his first feature. I can't believe this. His first feature since 2018, Cold War, that earned him a Best Directing Oscar nomination. His new movie is set in post-World War II Germany. Sandra Huller is the daughter of writer Thomas Mann. Yes, the real Thomas Mann, the writer of Death in Venice and The Magic Mountain. They take a road trip through Germany, a country still decimated by the war.

52:41 They're also dealing with a potential reconciliation with the son of Thomas Mann, the brother of Sandra Huller's character, Klaus Mann, also a writer and a fairly famous one in his own right. What did you, what did you make a fatherland, Josh?

53:01 It's, um, pretty intense. And I think we would expect that given the subject matter and the weight of history and the questions it's exploring. But I think as we've found, and we knew we would find when we did our marathon earlier this year, our dissident cinema marathon, um, you know, considering, uh, resistance against fascism films that portrayed that throughout history, you know, it's hard not to think about our current situation, especially here in the United States and other places in the world as well, this point in history. And so for me, I think Fatherland registered as, you know, a lament over that particular section of Germany's history and, you know, a lesson I just, this exercise of reckoning with Germany's fascist past,

53:53 it's been a decades-long project post-World War II and one that feels like it has new urgency. I mean, in Germany itself with, you know, recent election results we've seen. So, yeah, the more and more it feels like the question is legit, is this America's future? The more and more a movie like Fatherland makes us wrestle with that. And in particular, it makes, it would make us jump ahead to if that is where we're heading and which is disaster on multiple levels, what lies after it, how might pieces even get to be picked up again? Because that's what Thomas Mann as depicted in this film is trying to intellectually reconcile, right?

54:42 I think we get this sense that, um, he begins his tour I believe it's Frankfurt, right? Is that right? And so you have heavy U.S. influence there. There is, around his speech, there are other events, including at a nice hotel, dancing to jazz. There's an unrepentant consumerism and enthusiasm bubbling through the air. And he experiences that. And along with his daughter, who's accompanying him, Erica, played by Sandra Huller. And Then they go east where he is going to also give a speech. And there they encounter this tight collective grip on how the country will be reformed, right?

55:30 Under Soviet influence in this area. And, you know, for, for Mann, he, he doesn't, I don't think he sees a future, a civilized future in either direction, a humane future in either direction, honestly. And that was fascinating to me. Again, mentioned this when we were talking with your students, having gone to Berlin last spring and, you know, which was a trip that was primarily about learning about that history, the post-World War II history. And I think fatherland is fascinating and heavy in that sense. But here's what makes it special. And I'll give it back to you. But it's the way Pawlikowski makes this personal. Mm-hmm. And the family dynamics at play between Erica and her father, and they're distraught, somewhat estranged from their father's son, Klaus. I'm

56:28 still working through how that stands in, in some ways, for a Germany that's been divided and unsure of itself.

56:36 Yes.

56:37 I'm sure there are ways, but I'm still kind of roiling over the effectiveness of how it just works as a family story. Right. because it is so.

56:47 I think you can read it both ways.

56:48 I think you can read it both ways, and I think it's powerful if it is just a family story. And I think that's where Huler is so crucial in this, because Thomas Mann here, played by Hans Zischler, great, incredible performance, but very grave, very serious. And Huler brings in a little balance where She allows emotions to come into play and admits to things and will talk about things that her father will not. That brings that personal aspect to the forefront. So obviously she's incredible in it too. Yeah, this is a difficult watch in some ways, but I think another one of the year's best.

57:30 Yeah, perhaps. She is her own kind of truth teller, but she is an emotional truth teller. And you're right. He is a truth teller. But he is a truth teller in a different way.

57:40 That's good.

57:42 Through his work, but also through words. Intellectual. Intellectually. Yeah. Through words. And sometimes that does mean, and there is one great scene where he is confronted by two people and he tells them something that is, and then walks off. It's a drop the mic moment that you can't imagine. Neither of us can imagine ever saying something to someone to their face. on the scale of what he says to them in terms of the way he rebuffs them.

58:10 So he's willing to say hard truths, but it's still said with a coldness in a dispassionate way that, that is based more on intellectual, on an intellectual sort of debate, whether we could discuss whether or not what should happen to these people, should they have done this in a, in a war setting in, in post-war times, how do we deal with people who did or didn't do this?

58:34 It's a very different type of type of character with his daughter. And then you have the son, the artist who is stuck in between, right? And I do think there is very clearly an allegory there as well to this Germany that is stuck between the two sides of East and West as well. But it does raise so many fascinating questions. And a lot of them are explicit.

59:03 They're questions that are being asked within the film itself. Even just thinking about an intellectual like Tomas Mann, who has to make tough decisions like deciding whether or not he's going to come back to his homeland. And this is true. Not that the movie is lifted all from reality or is following the facts to the letter, but it is based on it is based on some real events.

59:32 Is he going to come back to Germany? Is he going to come back home? Is he going to be part of a sort of healing process? But the Germans are skeptical because he, he booked town and went to America. He escaped Germany, went to America when he's in Germany, Germany, When he's on one side of the country, the Americans are with him. When he's on the other side, the communists are with him. When he's with the communists, now he can't go back. Or if he goes back to America, they're going to suspect him of being a communist. The other side of Germany is also going to be against him.

1:00:04 So he can have all these intellectual reasons for doing what he does and be a man of integrity. But does that matter in this post-war world? Do words matter? Does being a writer, does being a public intellectual really carry any weight in this world, in this post-war world? At the screening, we went to the screenwriter, Hank Handlok.

1:00:31 I can't say his last name. Handloten? He was there. And one thing he said that just has really stuck with me, even though it probably seems very obvious, but it's something we as Americans, I think, have to process, Josh, is Someone in the audience asked a question about Pavlikovsky and how he is so focused on making movies that are set in the past and set in this period and dealing with communism and post-war politics and why that is, why it seems so personal to him. And Hank... said, well, it's personal for him too. We have similar experiences spending time in the East and the West and growing up in these environments. And the thing he said was that you have to understand that for us in Europe, up

1:01:27 until 1989, when the wall comes down, that's really post-war.

1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

1:01:33 Okay.

1:01:33 And absolutely.

1:01:34 We understand that the wall came down in 89 and that's when the cold war ended in America was obviously part of that, but that's not our experience at all. So filmmakers like Pavlikovsky who didn't actually live, grow up necessarily in this exact period, they weren't, they weren't adults in this period. You can understand why it's in, it's in their DNA. They have to process this. They're going to, they're going to be processing this in And I feel watching this film, this gorgeous black and white film, it is a haunting historical ghost story. And I say that because there is a moment where you don't know it at first. That's one of the nice little subtle tricks of the movie. You don't know it at first that it.

1:02:23 It could be a ghost sighting of sorts.

1:02:25 Yes.

1:02:25 That it could be a vision. We think it might actually be a real person who is there that a character is seeing.

1:02:31 Incredible moment.

1:02:32 We come to know later that that's not actually the case. But that ghost moment also stands in for this ghost of Germany that no longer exists, the ghosts of this family that no longer exists, the ghosts of all these people that who have perished and all of the lives that have been irrevocably ruined. That's what this movie makes you reckon with.

1:03:00 Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the black and white because anyone who's seen Eda, it's also square aspect ratio pretty much that he's employing. And so it has that aesthetic, but I think it lends, you hit upon it exactly, a ghostliness that is appropriate. It's very stark. It's very clarifying the black and white, but there's an irony to that because it's clarifying these questions that can't be answered. Yeah.

1:03:27 In terms of the history, that was what stood out about our time in Berlin is the recency of these events. And to your point about, you know, 89 being not that long ago, actually, I mean, you know, within our lifetimes, right. And you would, you could walk across the city and notice that the streetlights, the design of the streetlights suddenly changed.

1:03:51 And then you're, oh, that's because we've crossed where the wall was. Like we've now walked into East Germany. And so there's, there is like these relics that are still very contemporary and recent. And, um, that's something that this movie is tapping, tapping into. I will also say, um, there's a score aesthetically, just to touch on some of the other aesthetic elements. The score here is very lightly used, but when it appears and it's by, uh, Marcin Masecki, it's almost, it's like an, I think it's like an Oregon, but it's the only thing I kept thinking of is like, this is an, if an Oregon was in a spaceship or something, it's, it's very unnerving and unusual. And it's used on small occasions, but the musical moment is the

1:04:41 end of this movie. I mean, it can't be a music moment for our, you know, our wrap party awards because we can't talk about the end of a movie, right?

1:04:50 Well, we should.

1:04:50 But Adam, it is.

1:04:52 I'm telling you.

1:04:53 It ties into conversations that were had earlier in the film. So it's very thematically carefully thought out. And the way it unfolds is just... Shattering.

1:05:05 This is the thing. The movie, it's already very good. You're having the experience we're having with it. We're thinking about all these questions. Fair to say, even maybe we're both having a mostly intellectual experience with the film, and that's enough. But the thing is, we then get to have an emotional experience with the movie, too, by the way Pavlikovsky ends. And I didn't know if this movie had it in it. I didn't know. I honestly didn't necessarily even see it coming, even though it's exactly where it should be going. As you said, it references things earlier that you have to recall. It is the entire film about this divide between the intellectual and the emotional, between the political and the personal. for me too, and

1:05:58 I'll just, I'll end here. It's, it's really this question too. If I'd put it in these terms, how do you heal the core question? Well, you could just say that, how do you heal, but how do you heal an entire country? How do you put an entire country back together when you can't even heal your family, when you can't even heal yourself? And so when you have that foundation and you watch, you watch, you get to that ending, that's, That's when you start to understand the weight of it.

1:06:28 I think that's a key parallel to draw out. And you saying, I hadn't thought about this way, but you saying that you didn't know if the movie had it in it makes me realize that this is, and this shouldn't come as a surprise again because of Ida, which has a religious setting, but this is very much a work of transcendental cinema in, you know, the way Paul Schrader describes it.

1:06:50 Yes.

1:06:50 These are austere movies of reserve. Yes. That lull you into a state of, you know, there's not maybe much going on here. And then suddenly, wham, a wallops. Yeah. You just get by, by a, like a cinematic gesture as well. Not just a narrative gesture, a formal gesture. gesture, which I think is what happens here. So it's definitely putting fatherland in that tradition as well. And I would say, Adam, I would like to say it works as catharsis, and it might for some people, but going back to what I started at the beginning, if you see this as a portentous of what may lie ahead for the next era of world history, then that ending isn't cathartic. It's more wrenching, actually.

1:07:37 Yeah. Well, I think all I'll say is, it starts to get to an answer to one of the questions I posed. And starting to get to an answer is the best place the movie can leave us. I think it's the only place the movie can leave us. And Lucas Zoll is the cinematographer here who has done a lot of great work, including not only Eda and Cold War, but I'm thinking of Ending Things, The Zone of Interest as well. And I know we could look at other films in his IMDb, but I love your point about transcendentalist cinema because the other crossover there is I could be wrong, but I think I wrote this down somewhere in my notes. And I don't know if it's at the end or not, Josh. This isn't necessarily the element

1:08:24 we're talking about, but I don't think the camera moves in the film except for one moment. It is still. The camera is still moving. Throughout, which is what we expect from those films, right? That the lull you're talking about.

1:08:39 You might be right about that.

1:08:40 Always taking in the scene. But what we are seeing is a lot of deep focus. We're seeing this black and white cinematography. We're seeing these expansive views of the cities, these landscapes, if you will. But also because of the aspect ratio, it feels very confined. It feels very much about these people. The one point perspective that we get a lot as well makes it feel very narrow and confining too. So yeah, Fatherland is definitely one of those films.

1:09:12 If you have a chance to see, you should see it. It's currently playing in limited release, expands to Chicago and elsewhere. Next. weekend. And in the ocean, predators have all the advantages. So what options does that leaf prey like you? For something completely different, Josh, how about whale fall? We touched on this a little bit. It's the Austin Abrams getting caught inside a whale movie.

1:09:51 Yeah. Can I, let me, I do want to get to whale fall because I saw it, but also let me jump back to the festival real quick. I want to mention one thing I did see that I'm sure most of our listeners have already seen, but sadly for me, it was a 30th anniversary screening of of The Watermelon Woman, which I have had on my to watch list for way too long, co-written and directed by Cheryl Dunye, who also stars. And this landmark, knew of this as this landmark black queer woman debut that I just had to catch up with at some point. So I saw it on the schedule, 30th anniversary screening, as I said, Dunye was there to receive a career achievement award. Adam, I can't talk about... This was good and funny and enjoyable

1:10:44 and you recognize all of the ground it was breaking. And this ends on a twist that I had thankfully had not read a lot about this movie beyond its reputation as a landmark. I'm so glad I didn't. They didn't spoil it, introducing it. They said, we know some of you are here for the first time. We're not going to talk about that until afterwards. And this is A really great movie on its own. And then that re contextualizes everything you've seen in a way. I think you especially would love the basic story is that, um, Danielle plays Cheryl, who is working at a video store, aspiring filmmaker and the project she's working at on the side, along with hanging out with her friend. She has this romantic dalliance. All of that is very funny, but she's

1:11:34 working on a project where she's researching. an actress who was stuck in quote unquote mammy roles in 1930s and 1940s Hollywood. And so she's trying to dig up information about her for this larger portrait of gender and sexuality in Hollywood history, especially for black women. That's all fascinating on its own. And then where it ultimately leads and what you discover at the end is just really something.

1:12:05 So I want to push that further up on anyone else's watch list like mine, if they're just like, I'll get to it. We'll get to it. I've seen it. It's better than you've heard. It's its 30th anniversary. That's the Watermelon Woman. Yeah. Check it out as soon as you can.

1:12:22 But I'm going to start watching it while you talk about whale fall.

1:12:26 Well, I mean, whale fall is not good. but it deserves a little more respect than that, Adam. I don't know if I do, but Whale Fall does. You should give Whale Fall your full attention if you decide to see Whale Fall. I'll keep this brief. I wanted to really like this movie. I went to it because it just sounded like fun, and there are quite a few good things about it, but it has a major glaring issue, and this might not sound like an issue to listeners.

1:12:57 If you don't mind that 75% of this guy gets gobbled by a whale movie is about his difficult relationship with his father played by James Brolin or Josh Brolin, I should say, and copious flashbacks to that difficult relationship that to my mind were pretty stridently written. And I hate to say it probably because of that writing, not so incredibly performed. Go see whale fall. If that sounds good to you, cause you get a lot of that.

1:13:26 This is all about this guy and his dad. And I don't know, Adam, I just wanted a little more fun for my eaten by a whale movie.

1:13:37 I don't know.

1:13:39 I don't know if I can go all the way to like. basically, you know, the elevated horror debate, right? We've been having, I've never quite got that. I kind of like most elevated horror when it's trying to be about something else and be somewhat serious. I don't know if I need creature features to also become elevated. And that, that doesn't mean that they can't be smart. They can't be thoughtful. I was thinking about another movie. I think this was 2006, The Descent, which is a horror movie about a group of women friends who go spelunking in this cave system and they encounter, let's just say creatures.

1:14:18 And that movie, one of the things I really like about it is that it roots the horror they encounter in the relationship dynamics of the group of women and some of their backstory and some of the things that they bring with them into the cave. Okay. So this can be done, but it wasn't foregrounded in the way that it is in whale fall. where he brings these issues into the whale and it just becomes everything that it's about. And it was too much, too much for me, but let me say what's good about it. Early on, it does capture a real sense as Abrams character is scuba diving and exploring. And we, he goes over this Canyon underwater and the movie there captures a grandeur that it needed that, I think this helps me make the

1:15:10 point is I didn't want this to just be silly, right? It could be intense and serious in that way. And as he's hovering over this cliff edge, staring into the abyss, it's really quite effective and overwhelming, overpowering. And when he encounters the whale initially, it is as well. The sound design in this thing is incredible. But then when it takes that detour to be all about him and his dad, it was just too much for me. So- If you want your whale, if you want your giant whale eaten by a whale movie to be, you know, very family trauma and psychological, then Whale Fall is for you.

1:15:45 Tell us what you want from your giant whale eats somebody or swallow somebody movie and whether you got it from Whale Fall. It's out now in wide release. Email us as always feedback at filmspotting.net. You're being real right now. Always being real. Let's look now at some poll results. A couple of weeks ago, we asked you to rank some of the most anticipated films that will be released before the end of the year. Yes, it was our fall movie preview. We did things a little bit differently this time. Instead of just a regular poll, you can only pick one. We did it by ranking. You had to move the little sliders around and actually got to put them in order. Your most anticipated to least anticipated.

1:16:31 And then that, that gives them an average ranking. So obviously the lowest here, well, lowest should be, yeah, lowest is best. That's how it should be. So the lowest number, it's like golf. That means, that means you've got the best score. Now, the problem with this, it turns out that we didn't fully anticipate is that our feedback is largely anonymous because apparently with surveys with the system that we use, you can't leave your name or something. Maybe if we ever do it again, we'll just encourage people to write it in with their comment since there isn't a field for that. So that's a downfall, Josh. But we asked you to rank these six and in order, at least in alphabetical order, they were Avengers Doomsday, Dune

1:17:16 Part 3, David Fincher's Cliff Booth, The Misadventures of Cliff Booth, or The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth. And I'll get that exactly right since I apparently did not get right The fact that James Caan cannot star in that movie because he's dead.

1:17:32 Well, I am sorry. I didn't.

1:17:36 You should be sorry because you're the front line of defense.

1:17:39 I know.

1:17:39 I know.

1:17:40 And I just, I remember, I can't claim to have paused exactly for that reason, but I do remember when you were running through the cast and you said those two names, I paused. Yeah. And I should have followed that thought a little further.

1:17:56 You should have.

1:17:56 I apologize as well.

1:17:57 That's okay. Well, thank you, Josh.

1:17:58 To the entire Khan family.

1:17:59 It is my fault, though I do want to say this.

1:18:03 I just remember why I pause. Why? Because you were equating James Khan with his son, whose name I can't Scott.

1:18:13 No, I wasn't equating them. I was saying this is.

1:18:16 This is exactly why I paused and why I couldn't defend you. I was considering, am I going to call him out on that? Because the way you phrased it, I thought you meant like they were both legends. Oh, like, I think, I think you said something like the two, two, two, like something. And I thought, Hmm, I don't know if they're exactly. And then, and then I like completely forgot to know.

1:18:37 If I did, I was definitely being facetious. No, that wasn't my goal. The only thing I will say in my defense, and I suppose we call this the anchorman defense, the Ron Burgundy defense, is I am telling you, one of the fall previews I looked at listed the cast, and right below Scott Kahn was James Kahn.

1:18:59 Oh, I fully believe this.

1:19:00 So, you know, that isn't really a good excuse because I should have known he was dead, but I didn't just make that up. I pulled it from somewhere.

1:19:10 According to the... internet, James Caan is hosting the show next week.

1:19:13 He might be. Wouldn't that be grand? You can't really trust. Okay. Well, the choices are Doomsday, Dune, Cliff Booth, not with James Caan, but with Scott Caan, Robert Ager's Werewolf, Martin McDonough's Wild Horse 9, or You Can See Everything Except I Can't See It Because It's Playing Nowhere Near Me, so that title is just taunting me. How did it come out, Josh?

1:19:41 Okay, according to our scientific method, which means I will be sharing these strange scores with you. Avengers Doomsday, yeah. Last Place, 4.83. Robert Eggers' Werewolf, 3.88. James Caan's Cliff Booth, 3.31. Martin McDonough's Wild Horse 9, 3.31 as well. Okay. So the top two, here we go.

1:20:04 Close.

1:20:05 In second place, Dune part three. A lot of Dune fans in the listenership to your chagrin, Adam.

1:20:14 Will they finally get a Dune movie right? I can't wait. Oh boy. Oh boy.

1:20:19 You can see everything. Yeah. I mean, the talk, the buzz, the reviews, everything for this is off the charts, like Odyssey level at this point. So it did indeed take our poll. The score, if you're following our scores, 2.81. Okay.

1:20:35 Here's the first comment. This is a little confusing how it's laid out. I'm assuming that each paragraph break is a different comment. So I'll start with the first sentence. This poll is dead on arrival. Where is Godzilla minus zero? Fair.

1:20:49 Fair enough. Yeah. Had that one that went in my draft. Pick that one. Jordan in Studio City. Somehow we got Jordan's name here. Also mentioning Godzilla minus zero along with the debut and Lee Chang Dong's possible love are all up there. But the surefire cringe fest of you can see everything is number one with a bullet.

1:21:09 If Dune part three sticks the landing, it will be up with Lord of the Rings and the Star Wars original trilogy. Come on. It's just blasphemy as a sci-fi fantasy royalty.

1:21:20 Yeah. I mean, even as a Dune defender, this comment should be anonymous, Adam.

1:21:26 That was a great slam, Josh. I'm going to remember that.

1:21:30 Rank those. Dune, obviously you have last. You've got to choose between Lord of the Rings and Star Wars original. I know you've come around on Lord of the Rings, but the nostalgia, not come around. When you watch them all, you really like them. I did. But does the nostalgia of Star Wars, you have that at top?

1:21:46 Yeah. You don't have to ask me that question.

1:21:48 Okay. Just making sure. Just making sure. Here's another comment anonymously. I am anticipating all of these movies to different degrees. If anything, the reason that Cliff Booth ends up at the bottom is because it's a Netflix movie. I tend to get Netflix movies in theaters where I am, but there's just something about it that rubs me wrong. Interesting.

1:22:08 I think I get that actually. I suppose. The newsletter said Avengers Doomsday is currently getting the most votes for last place. This seems wrong. There's nothing like going to see a massive movie like that on opening weekend when the entire crowd is made up of enthusiastic moviegoers. Are you sure you didn't flip the poll results upside down?

1:22:27 Now, we are clearly, as we've described, following a scientific process here. Very, very careful. One last comment. I put Doomsday last, but don't let that mean it's an also rant. I'm looking forward to it and hope they can get somewhere near endgame levels of quality. Unlikely, but we can hope. It's just that this list is so strong. We are blessed.

1:22:49 We thank everyone who voted in that poll and left a comment. The new Deeply Flawed Film Spotting poll asks you about documentaries released since 2020. You can see everything open to historic box office for a doc last weekend. You've seen it. I still have not. I'm going to get to it just as soon as I can. You know, I am dying to see it and dying to discuss it.

1:23:13 The success of the movie does prompt us to ask which doc this decade or which docs this decade will compete with this one for perhaps the title of best doc of the decade. There have been quite a few that are very good, very good to great release since 2020. Maybe nothing that's made quite as big of an impression as you can see everything. These are the options. We're trying to keep our options now down to about seven, no more than seven. These are the seven we landed on.

1:23:47 We trust, we know that we're going to get feedback from people saying things like one of our commenters just a moment ago said, this poll is DOA. There's a reason why we call them deeply flawed. Yes, surely we're overlooking something that should be included. That's why you can vote other and write it in. These are the seven options we came up with.

1:24:08 All right. All the beauty and the bloodshed. Boys state. Dick Johnson is dead. Fire of love. Flee. No other land. Summer of soul. Or yes. If none of those does it for you, write in with another choice.

1:24:25 Josh, do you have a winner among those seven or are you going other?

1:24:31 Oh, you know, I didn't do the deep research for other, other. But I do have a clear winner. Well, no, I've got two here that it's tough for me to choose between.

1:24:42 Can I jump in? It's got to be Dick Johnson is dead in Summer of Soul.

1:24:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got it. And, you know, there may be in the tier above and then all these others are really strong. I think it's Dick Johnson is dead. I think it's that's one that I've revisited a couple of times. I've thought about in a few different contexts. it is so rich, um, conceptually, formally, and, and, um, you know, obviously emotionally, just the topic there with, uh, Kirsten Johnson making this documentary with her father as, um, you know, dementia gradually, slowly sets in it's, you know, for those unfamiliar with it though, it's, it's nowhere near as grim as that sounds. It's realistic about all that, but it's also not falsely uplifting. Um, I just, yeah, Dick Johnson's Dead has a special place for me. It's

1:25:39 hard for anything to really knock that off a top spot.

1:25:45 I have seen all seven of those. I like all seven of those films. I think they're all very good. So it is a tough choice for me. Similarly, comes down to two. Dick Johnson is Dead is definitely one of those two in the mix. But the other one I am considering, Josh, is one that I think only got a one-sided review on the show. I could be wrong.

1:26:08 Jump in if, if I am misremembering, but 2021, the Danish movie flea. I think I have seen it.

1:26:18 I've seen it and I like it quite a bit.

1:26:20 Yeah.

1:26:21 Maybe it was a case of you saw it before me or, um, year end or something. Yeah.

1:26:25 It was a year end thing where I watched it because it was a neon film that came in the set end of year premiered at Sundance in 2021 animated film. documentary, but certainly adult. I think we could say adult material for an animated film and a movie that I don't want to try to get into the subject matter because not only was it a long time ago, but it's pretty heady stuff and a lot of political material as well.

1:26:56 So there's some real plot machinations there. Needless to say, if you're not familiar with Flea, Google it. perhaps even stream it or get it VOD. If you have an opportunity one to check out before you voted this poll, if you haven't seen flea that, that might be the one on this list too, that I didn't look on letterbox.

1:27:17 I know Sam did the research. Maybe flea is the one that's least seen. No, no other land is the one that, that didn't get any kind of distribution or did just very late. So Flea would probably be behind No Other Land.

1:27:30 Very recent too, right? Very recent too. Like a year and a half No Other Land or.

1:27:33 Two years ago. Yeah, exactly. We want to see your vote. You can vote right now on the main page of filmspotting.net. We will share results and your hopefully not anonymous comments in a couple of weeks, unless they're just really dumb in that sense, then you should definitely be anonymous.

1:27:52 Just kidding. Share it. Share it. Just don't share your name.

1:27:56 Josh, that's our show.

1:27:58 If you want to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, and Blue Sky. He's at Film Spotting. I'm at Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. That means we need your support, which you can do by joining the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. That way you can listen early and ad free. You will also get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:28:31 Out now in limited release. I know you want to see this. I'd like to revisit it because I've only seen it once back when it came out. The 20th anniversary 4K restoration of Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette.

1:28:44 On a big screen. How fun would that be?

1:28:46 On a big screen. Josh, I know you probably won't be attending the movie that's also out now. in limited release, and that's Alex Gibney, very good documentary filmmaker, but his new film about Elon Musk. it is called Simply Musk. Are you aware, this is mainly why I'm saying this, because I'm curious.

1:29:06 It's like four hours, right?

1:29:08 I'm curious about this. I don't really want to sit with Elon Musk for a while, but I'm curious about the material and how Gibney approaches it. The movie is four hours long.

1:29:18 Yeah, that is... a big ask, I will say.

1:29:22 We have also a talent for murder, Anton Corbine. His first film since 2014 is A Most Wanted Man. Has it really been that long? This is about a young man who travels from New York to Switzerland to try to persuade acclaimed thriller writer Patricia Highsmith to write one final installment of her Tom Ripley series with his efforts gradually turning more sinister. I like it. Helen Mirren is Highsmith.

1:29:44 I like that. Alden Ehrenreich is her sinister fan. Sounds pretty good.

1:29:49 Sounds good to me. The algorithm has been serving this up to Debbie. So she is definitely interested, might be able to fit this in with her.

1:29:58 You're probably also getting served Ali G, who is I, since you love Sacha Baron Cohen.

1:30:03 I should be, right?

1:30:04 You should. Yeah. Clayface, part of the DC universe. An actor gets experimental surgery when his face is disfigured. If you don't like that, you can go see Josh's most anticipated film of the fall. Taika Waititi's AI dramedy. Is that true? Clara and the sun.

1:30:23 So this is the second time you tried, you tried that joke. What, what is, what's behind this?

1:30:28 I'm just turning, I'm turning Waititi into a punchline, I guess. I, I know that.

1:30:33 We were split on the, um, I wasn't a Jojo.

1:30:36 I wasn't a Jojo rabbit guy.

1:30:37 You were okay. I was, I was a big Jojo rabbit guy.

1:30:41 Big Jojo rabbit guy.

1:30:42 So far, so far, um, the reviews for this one, not, Oh, Not great.

1:30:47 Okay. Is what I've been seeing. Jenna Ortega as an artificial friend, Amy Adams and Natasha Lyonne also star. This one, truthfully, you were anticipating. I think it made your draft. Wildwood. Like Animations Wildwood, directed by Travis Knight.

1:31:03 I would be there first thing Friday, but I will be joining you at Refocus Film Fest.

1:31:08 That's right.

1:31:08 So might have to catch up with Wildwood the following week.

1:31:11 In the Film Spotting feed this coming week, The Movie Racket with Michael Phillips. We'll be back with a great episode. This past week, Manola Dargis from the New York Times.

1:31:20 I mean.

1:31:20 Yeah.

1:31:20 Oh, she was fantastic.

1:31:21 Great guests talking about Stanley Kubrick's quote about whether or not movies can truly change you.

1:31:27 Yeah. Someone who, and I'm sure she's done, you know, other podcasts and maybe even some videos for the times, but like I've been reading her. Yeah. Since the LA, since LA weekly, you know, back in college. So to, to get to hear her just in casual conversation with Michael was, was really nice.

1:31:41 Agreed. Tuesday, film spotting SVU. will share the horror movies that deformed us, and they will talk about creeping dread horror movies. That will be great. Thursday, the next picture show, part two of their social network and social reckoning pairing. Friday's film spotting. So our backup, if I couldn't get to You Can See Everything, and right now, as we're recording this, it's not for sure that I won't get to You Can See Everything. But if I can't, then our backup is... Brian De Palma's Carrie at 50 for Halloween. Wow.

1:32:19 Yep.

1:32:20 So that's, that's our backup plan. We will see if that's what happens next week. And also we will tease one more time. We'll remind you that if you're hearing this on the Friday that it drops or Saturday, you may very likely have a chance to see us. If you're in the Iowa city area for the refocus film festival, great fest with a lot of great films some of which we're playing at the Chicago Film Festival Andrew Haig and his movie A Long Winter is here that's the premiere movie on Thursday night so if you're hearing this you missed that but we're going to be doing a live show Matt Singer is going to be here Michael Phillips is going to be here producer Sam is going to be here the blank check guys Ben and Griffin

1:33:03 are going to be here so you really should come if you're anywhere near the.

1:33:07 Area yeah come hang out with us Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dassault and Sam Van Hogren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Ariana Martinez is our marketing and social media assistant. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago.

1:33:25 More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.

1:33:30 And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

1:33:36 Goodbye.

1:33:43 Thank you.