Israel Votes: The Final Lap

0:00 Join Arc Plus to get ad-free access to every episode of For Heaven's Sake, and help support independent Jewish media. Join at arcmedia.org. [musical jingle] You are listening to an Arc Media podcast. This is the most boring existential moment that I've experienced in Israel. You don't see banners on the streets. At previous elections, you know, the streets were on fire, and now the streets are very calm.

0:36 There's such a disparity between the inner turmoil that so many of us are feeling and the deceptive outer calm. This is a campaign not even about Eisenkot's ideology. It's about the space he wants to bring Israel back to in the midst of all of our craziness. Trust me, the periphery is not in charge anymore. You know, there's a term in Hebrew, there's a balabayit.

0:59 There's someone responsible who's back. Good-faith arguments are hard to come by these days, which is why they are so important. To support these conversations, become an Arc Plus member and get ad-free access to For Heaven's Sake and other Arc Media shows at arcmedia.org. Hi, friends. This is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake, in collaboration with Arc Media. Today is Monday, October 19th, and our theme is, what else?

1:36 Israel votes, the final lap. These elections, it feels to me, have been four years coming. It's not since the elections were declared. I've been-- In many ways, I've made it through these last four years because I knew elections were coming. And I thought they were coming earlier, but that's the way I was able to handle it, and it's the beauty of democracy. We lost. Another party was-- came in, parties and coalitions that I disagreed with deeply.

2:05 But the oxygen, the, the source of inspiration is coming, and we have to think about is this gonna be as inspiring? What-- Where are we as a society? What does it mean? We have this week, uh, just today, finally, Benny Gantz declared that he's not running on October twenty-seventh. He might reappear again in, uh, if there's a second and third cycle.

2:28 He has no pathway to pass the threshold. Well, as Richard Nixon once said, "You're not going to have me to kick around anymore." You're not gonna have me to ki-- Well, yeah, but yeah, no one was even kicking him around anymore. The problem is, you know, for him it was, "You're not gonna have me to ignore anymore." [laughing] It's-- You're gonna have to ignore somebody else. You know, as he was languishing as under one percent, and you need three and a quarter percent. It's a tragic story.

2:54 It's a, a serious man who tried to do something, but ultimately, his failure to force Netanyahu to relinquish the prime ministership to him, despite his promises, he became seen as weak and unimaginative. Right. They had a rotation agreement, and big surprise, Netanyahu violated the agreement so. And in many ways, that moment has defined much of this election season because the option- Right. That's right...

3:23 of creating a coalition with Netanyahu was off the table because of what Netanyahu put forth. And when Benny Gantz is still speaking about a national unity government with Netanyahu, it just became yesterday's option because it's no longer a viable option. His word can't be trusted. So all the rest of the political map, and we'll come back to that, has moved away from the possibility of larger coalitions. So that has happened.

3:50 And in addition, yesterday, the President of the United States did something unprecedented, also unpresidential. [chuckles] Unprecedented, never done this way, but that's sort of Donald Trump's modus vivendi when he explicitly came out in support of Benjamin Netanyahu, a move that is-- It's not that we didn't know who the presidents wanted, but you always said Israel, you know, Israel will vote for whoever it votes for, and the relationship between Israel and the United States is not dependent on who's the prime minister.

4:21 That was the, you know... It's a relationship of values. It's people to people. Now, Donald Trump said, "Netanyahu's my man," and we'll come back to that. But Yossi, I want you to humor me for-- It's not humorous. But I can't start with this. Even though this is the topic, I can't start here. I have to talk about something, and I-- you and I talked about it before when we were in Israel, but now that I'm traveling around the United States, it hits me even stronger, and that is the attacks of hilltop terrorists against journalists, against Palestinians.

4:57 A rabbi, a leader of that movement declaring that it's legitimate to take, it's not stealing, to take the harvest of Palestinians since it's our land, not their land. The beating up of diplomats. You know, finally today, it's reported that 10 people were arrested, and that makes me feel, on the one hand, good, but it infuriates me even further because it's never been just the Hilltop Youth.

5:22 It's been the quiet of the society throughout this moment, the fact that we haven't arrested people. And here, it even infuriates me more, 'cause as I speak to people, this is like they're pleading. They're saying, "This, please. This is not Judaism. This is not Israel. This is not what I stand for. You wanna debate with me whether there's genocide or not. Really, this? That this you can't handle?" The angst of Jews is just immense. And what I have seen here, and I'm just gonna say this and turn it over to you, and then we'll go to our topic. When I hear Israelis critique hilltop terrorists and speak about how- They are destructive to the settlement movement. They're destructive to Israel's economic standing in the world. You know, Yossi, you remember you said about you getting very angry.

6:14 What's your term for very angry? Rage. [laughs] This is the closest I get to rage, Yossi. I hear. I hear That's the problem-- That's the problem with hilltop terrorists, that they're hurting the settlement movement, or are they violating essential Jewish values and our fundamental principle to treat other people the way we would want to be treated and to see all people created in the image of God?

6:37 So I can't start today without just mentioning it. I hope not just 10 are arrested. Israel should remove every single one of them, empty every one of these farms where they're coming from. There might be farms where they're not coming from, which are peaceful. That's separate. Any farm which is built around these terrorists has to be removed, taken apart.

6:59 They have to be removed from the West Bank, and this stain on our moral Jewish conscience has to come to an end. But okay, Yossi, I'm feeling a little better now. My rage has stopped. [laughs] Anything you want to say? Yeah, it's interesting you're using the language of terrorists to refer to the Hilltop Youth.

7:18 Gadi Eizenkot calls them terrorists as well, and it's a reminder of the moral backbone that Eizenkot showed when he was, uh, the IDF commander-in-chief. He stood up to the politicians. There was one very famous infamous incident with, uh, Elor Azaria, the soldier who killed a terrorist who was already bound and subdued, and Eizenkot insisted on putting him on trial.

7:51 Netanyahu and the other government, uh, ministers opposed it, and that was really in some way Eizenkot's first political stand, public political stand, and you really see in that moment the foreshadowing of the role that he's playing today. You know, I, I think that it also bears mentioning the distinction that you and I have repeatedly made over the years in our episodes in trying to draw a very fine line between the s- normative settlement movement and the extremist fringe.

8:28 The problem today is that they're not a fringe anymore. The moment you have political patrons at the highest levels of, uh, the security establishment, and I'm speaking of course of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, you can no longer speak of the Hilltop Youth as a fringe. And in terms of the settlement movement, when you... You know, you spoke earlier, Daniel, about the silence of Israeli society.

8:53 The silence of the settlement movement, the complicity of settlement leaders who have half-heartedly condemned in exactly the language that you used, uh, it was not a thunderous moral rejection of abusing, beating, stealing from, occasionally killing innocents. It was more along the lines of, uh, you're tarnishing the settlement movement.

9:21 And the last thing I want to say about this, Daniel, is to tarnish, this idea of tarnishing the reputation of the settlement movement or, uh, let's broaden it and say the good name of the State of Israel, the Jewish people. Because what they do implicates Jews around the world, and I think that's what you're experiencing in your travels.

9:43 And I think I've said this in a previous discussion we've had on the Hilltop Youth, but I, I do want to repeat it, which is that in Judaism, there is one sin for which there is no atonement even on Yom Kippur, and that's what we call Chilul Hashem, the desecration of God's name, and we can expand that to include the desecration of the name of the Jewish people.

10:09 And the Hilltop Youth who are conducting their terror campaign in the name of Judaism, these are religious kids, ostensibly religious kids. This is a level of Chilul Hashem that the State of Israel has not experienced, and the fact is we have not as a society, as you pointed out, we have not risen up and said, "No, this is not us."

10:36 And so we're all carrying the stain of Chilul Hashem, and one of the reasons that I'm so desperate to see a change in government is precisely on this issue. Now, it's true that those who hate Israel, who have already made up their minds that we're evil, we're the embodiment of all the evil in the world, they're not going to be persuaded by a change in government.

11:01 But our friends, the Jewish communities around the world, need to see, need to hear Gadi Eizenkot, Prime Minister Eizenkot speak about Israel and Jewish values. And if nothing else, that can help staunch the loss that we're experiencing in the hardcore of supporters of Israel. That's what worries me. Thank you, Yossi.

11:30 We could talk about this more, but let's shift back if we can to the final lap that we're in. You know, it's like it's-- I don't want it's like, "So how was the concert, Miss?" Like, I don't want to get that feeling like here it is where there's something huge on the table, and this week we have to talk about the elections, but we- The, the elections- But that needed to be mentioned...

11:47 the elections are, are pretty big too. Are pretty big too. The elections are not the play. Are not the play. The elections are also really [laughs] So right. So let's-- Take us. Here it is. Trump endorsement. It's never been. You know, and in the past, Netanyahu always the Likud came out against- Americans intervening in the elections. Right.

12:05 And now the minute Trump endorses him, Netanyahu tweets it, it becomes his lead message. It's... It is remarkable the hypocrisy and the in- of everybody. So I'm... It's like he's not worse than that, but you know, you just watch it, but election campaigns are so hypocritical. But in any event, the Trump endorsement, is it gonna help Netanyahu, do you think?

12:25 You know, there was one precedent for this moment which has been long forgotten and yet bears a brief mention. In 1972, Richard Nixon is running against George McGovern. Then Israeli Ambassador to Washington, Yitzhak Rabin, came out in an interview and said he hopes that friends of Israel, I don't remember the exact language, will understand that it is in Israel's interest to make sure that Nixon remains in the White House.

13:01 The withering criticism that Rabin received across the board, also from the Labor Party in Israel, this is something you don't do. I mean, it's amazing he wasn't recalled, but he came very, very close to blowing his new political career. He, he had been recently released from the army, was given this plum position, and then he blows it.

13:29 And that was the first and last time that we had such an overt and crass attempt from either side of the relationship to influence an election. Now we have the President of the United States intervening in the most vulgar way, as only he knows how to do. What I find, I find a few things interesting, Daniel.

13:53 First of all, that there isn't a big tumult in Israel about this. And Gadi Eisenkot made a statement saying, "I respect the president, but it will be the people of Israel who will decide," in his very measured, almost boring- Blah, blah, blah... boring voice Like I, I was yawning- Yeah... as he was-- I was reading his response. I almost fell asleep in the middle. And, and- Yes...

14:17 but I actually, I appreciated the boredom of his response because he was toning it down, and he was telling Israelis, "Not getting all worked up about this. This isn't a big deal." Now, the question, of course, is what impact this will have on the electorate? Will this bring back wavering voters to Netanyahu?

14:43 Will Eisenkot lose some of the soft right voters that he managed to pull away from Netanyahu? I don't know anymore. I used to feel that I understood different segments of Israeli society. I don't understand the Netanyahu camp anymore. I don't understand how people can still be voting for him or considering him a serious option. And so I don't know how to measure that.

15:12 Uh, there should be polls coming out tonight which will give us some indication if there is a bump for Netanyahu here. But how does this, uh, play out for you? What do you think is happening here? There's two things I feel that are happening here. We have to take into account the changing perception of Israelis vis-à-vis Donald Trump. Mm-hmm. Donald Trump is not that popular anymore in Israel.

15:34 His shifts and moods and declarations and with the back and forth and, you know, the story that there's this genius negotiator playing and doing this, Israelis aren't buying it anymore. They're just, you know- Right... we're, we're about to go to war. We're not about to go to war. We're gonna destroy them. We're really, really, really gonna do... So Israelis are not very impressed with him.

15:57 So certainly in the opposition camp, I don't see this having any serious implications on the electorate because there's, um, Donald Trump is not the most popular politician in Israel anymore. Uh, we don't have this hatred of Donald Trump. There isn't a hatred- Not at all... even amongst liberals. No. No, no. Not at all. It's, there's no hatred. No.

16:20 There's just a, you know, there's a ridicule, a sense that this, you know, they speak openly about his agenda being principally Donald Trump self-interest, self, you know, all these narcissism, all these types of things, inconsistencies, but there is no hatred. The one thing that might, and this relates to the campaign itself, is that it's not the endorsement, but when Donald Trump says, "It's only with Netanyahu that I could continue the campaign against Iran," that's Netanyahu's campaign. See, Netanyahu can't campaign on, uh, economics. Things aren't going, you know, it's... There are certain things that are well, but the cost of living is very, very high.

17:03 He's not speaking about that. He can't speak about national solidarity because he's causing national schisms. He can't speak about caring for the people who are serving in the army. He's not passing a Haredi vote. The only thing, and here I disagree with you because I do understand Netanyahu's voters, and I don't think they're silly or crazy. They're not me. But they feel safer with Netanyahu when we're in a dangerous Middle East.

17:30 Okay. Then Trump's endorsement reinforces the base but not necessarily shifts voters from- It doesn't... from one camp to the other. No. What it does do is it makes this campaign, it allows Netanyahu to speak again about Iran. Like, it's a joke. What are we gonna talk about? Like, what are we doing? We don't even know what we're doing.

17:49 We're not even deciding. Like, we could strut. We're gonna do this and that. It's not even being decided in Jerusalem. But here, Netanyahu needs a war conversation. He doesn't need a war before the election. That would harm him And I don't believe he would start a... I refuse. I don't have Netanyahu derangement syndrome either. I do not believe that Netanyahu would ever start a war with Iran to help himself get elected.

18:16 That's not Netanyahu enough. I just- You're a much more generous soul, Yair Fair enough. I appreciate that. I just, I don't have Netanyahu derangement. I don't agree with him on a lot of his things. I don't like him, but I don't think he would do something in Iran. But what he will do is elevating the discussion to talk about the dangers.

18:35 And when Donald Trump says, "I need Netanyahu," that's, that's not convincing people, but for others who vote for Netanyahu, that tells them, "Yes, he's the guy. I want him at the helm when we're having to deal with security issues." So that dimension of the Trump, of the Trump endorsement might help a little bit.

18:56 I mean, you know, the question is, uh, how does the Israeli public hear Trump's promise that we're going back to war, and he's the only guy who can take us to war? The Israeli public is really enjoying this relative calm that we're experiencing. No one is in any rush to go back to the shelters. And look, you know, I am as hawkish as one can possibly be on Iran, and I have to tell you, the thought of renewing the war immediately after the midterms in America, which is apparently on the agenda, is not something I'm really a- anticipating [laughs], you know?

19:39 We'll be right back. This show exists because we think that disagreement, done honestly, is how you actually learn something. Arc Plus members make that possible. When you join, you're funding independent coverage of Israel and Jewish life across the whole Arc Media network. You also get ad-free listening in this show and member-exclusive content on Call Me Back, Arc News Daily, and Chosen People Problems.

20:09 If For Heaven's Sake has been a resource for you to understand Israel and the Jewish world, consider becoming a member. Join Arc Plus at arcmedia.org. We're back. Now let's go beyond Trump, and what have you learnt about Israeli society? Uh, what have these elections? You know, elections are the moment in which the citizen, who is the sovereign, steps forth and talks about their country.

20:36 Have you learnt anything different or important about this process, about where Israeli society is right now? So let me say something tentative, and I'm not sure if it's true, but it seems to me that the ethnic divide that really defined Israeli politics, the Ashkenazi versus Mizrahi divide, seems to be easing. And we had an indication just a few days ago.

21:07 Netanyahu's, uh, chief media promoter, Yinon Magal of Channel 14, which is Netanyahu's, I hate to put it this way, but his propaganda TV station. Uh, Yinon Magal is the chief propagandist, and he's defined himself, uh, that way. You know, he's-- he says, uh, "I transmit messages from Netanyahu to the public." He's very candid about that.

21:33 He was speaking about, uh, Eisenkot, who is, of course, of Moroccan descent. Both his parents were born in Morocco. And he was mocking Eisenkot as a kind of a fake Mizrahi, and he called him a monkey. He said, "He is a monkey who is being manipulated by the Ashkenazi elite." He said this at a panel conversation on Channel 14, and you had your resident Mizrahi there who found this very funny. Now, in 1981, Israel was in the midst of one of its most vehement election campaigns. There was violence from Likud supporters against Labor activists. Labor Party headquarters were set on fire in different cities around the country.

22:30 It was the most intense and violent election campaign that Israel had had until then, and it was very, very close. It was Menachem Begin running for a second term against Labor's Shimon Peres. And at a Labor Party rally, the MC, who was a comedian, a popular comedian, made a statement that lost Labor the election.

22:58 What he said was that, uh, "We, Labor, we are the camp of the fighters. We are the camp of the combat soldiers. The-- We're the elite of the army." He says, "The other camp, the Likudniks, they're the cooks. They do guard duty on the bases." He said, "They're the Echachbim." Echachbim is kind of the street rabble. Two days later, Menachem Begin appears in that same square.

23:29 The Likud hastily calls a mass rally. This-- And we're talking about a few days before the election, and Begin stands up in front of thousands of his supporters, and he says, "They called us," and he pauses. He reads from a piece of paper, "Echachbim." He mispronounced it, and maybe he mispronounced it deliberately- Intentionally, of course...

23:53 because he said, because he said, "Until this comedian said that word, I'd never heard it." Now everyone in Israel knew that word. And then Begin, Begin won the election that night. It was a very close election. And if you fast-forward to the ape, to Gadi Eizenkot as an ape, Eizenkot has tried to justifiably make some political capital out of this.

24:23 But, you know, as in everything else with this election campaign, the reaction has been relatively low-key. You've had some anger on the part of Mizrahim. There's a hashtag going around, "I'm a proud monkey." But if you think about what happened in this country in 1981, and periodically during elect- subsequent election campaigns, the ethnic slur against Mizrahim has resurfaced, and it created real ripples.

24:57 You remember in, uh, one of the recent election campaigns, there was an Israeli, uh, actor or playwright, Garboz, who made some kind of a remark about, uh, the superstitious kissers of the mezuzot to disparage the traditional sentiments of a Mizrahim. This was a major blow-up in the campaign, and of course Likud used it, uh, endlessly.

25:25 So either the Eizenkot camp is incompetent and doesn't know how to exploit ethnic rage, or many Mizrahim are simply giving the Likud a pass because they're our party and they're not really racist, it was just a slip of the tongue, or this is the final option, maybe the ethnic divide, the intensity of the ethnic sensitivities has really begun to wane.

25:55 How, how did you read it, Daniel? See, when I analyze, you know, I'm, I spend a huge amount of time analyzing and reading and following. It's very interesting. As the campaign started, there's a lot of analysts who basically are playing out 10-year, 5-year-old, even 3-year-old, 2-year-old- Mm-hmm... playbooks in which this is an election between the Middle East and the West.

26:20 You know, N- Netanyahu is the Middle East, Eizenkot, Bennett i- [laughs] is the West, 'cause they're so used to this core divide. But if you actually analyze the breakdown of the 120 seats according to most polls, what you see is that the real divide is between a core center made up of center left, center, center right with a little bit of the right, that group, and four sectorial ideological tribes. Let me just play this out for a minute because what it shows is very much what you said, is that the Ashkenazi-Sephardi issue is just not the issue anymore.

27:03 The four sectorial tribes, ideological, ethnic, make up 45 seats. The four parties are the Israeli-Arab Palestinian parties. There's two. They get about 15 seats. The ultra-Orthodox get about 15 seats. The fascist Kahanists get about eight seats. And the Messianic religious Zionists, about a third of the religious Zionist community, not all of them, get about six seats.

27:31 So that's about 44, 45- It's interesting you're not putting the radical Messianic religious Zionists together with Ben Gvir. I know it's a slightly different constituency, but- It's a sl- it's a different instinct. There are- It is. You're right... they have a family resemblance. They lead the same place. Right. But I think-- So if you wanted to- Mm-hmm...

27:49 it's three blocks of 15, but I think it's separate because for one, it's motivated by the holiness of the land, and the other one, it's motivated by fake notions of national loyalty, a nat- ultra nationalist story. And fear. And fear. And also fear. Which is what you do. You always, that's the way you play these distinctions. So they make up 45 seats.

28:13 You have between the Likud, Eizenkot, Bennett, Hendel, ev- the whole group, Winter, there's another 75 seats of supporters. That's the majority of Israel. Right. Right. 75 to 45. Now, what happens is in that 75- I li- I like this a lot. This is very good So now look at this 'cause people aren't noticing. Yeah. Out of these 75 seats, Netanyahu gets, he tops out at 20.

28:43 So Netanyahu, his supporters, it's not an Ashkenazi and Sephardi mar... 55% are Sephardi in this country. They could only vote for Netanyahu. Where are his voters? When he was at 33, two seats, he's lost close to 50% of his supporters. They've gone elsewhere, but they're not at Menachem Begin and Binyamin Netanyahu Sephardic home. It's just a different story.

29:07 So in this divide, it's not Ashkenazi, Sephardi. The question is, who's gonna run the country? And this is in many ways what the election is about. Who's gonna run the country? Is it going to be two or three of these sectarian groups? Is it gonna be Haredim, fascists, ultranationalists, or Messianic religious Zionists who have no access to power other than with Netanyahu?

29:33 They don't like Netanyahu, and they're not strongly Sephardi-based or Ashkenazi-based. That's not-- They're not a Sephardi party or an Ashkenazi party. They're made up of, of a whole spectrum of ethnic backgrounds. Their only avenue to power is with Netanyahu, and Netanyahu's only avenue, not even to power, he has no avenue to power anymore.

29:53 There's no way Netanyahu's gonna be prime minister because the fourth sectorial group, those 15 Israeli Arab Palestinian seats, while not being part of a new coalition, when they vote against Netanyahu, he has no way to win. But what you see in this divide of 75 to 45 Is that it's not anymore the Ashkenazi-Sephardi, the wealthy, the poor. It's just a different story. It's a story of what will be good for Israel.

30:21 There's a whole bunch of other issues, but it's whether the sectorial groups are gonna run the country with their radical agendas, serving themselves or, or, or is it gonna be some more mainstream conversation? And so as I watch this election, I see this emerging. Now, what's interesting is the natural consequence, and here I'll conclude, is some form of national unity government emerging after the elections of this 75.

30:50 That's what Gantz spoke about, that's what Hendel speaks about. The problem is as long as Netanyahu's there, the just not Netanyahu divides these 75, not on ideological terms even, but more on personal terms. So as I watch this, you're seeing a maturation of Israeli society away from its old divides, and it's... I'm finding it very interesting. Well, I, I like the sketch very, very much.

31:16 What you're saying is that there are 75 seats that we can call mainstream Zionist. Correct. And 45 seats that for one part or another of the mainstream are beyond the pale. So for the Likud, which for the sake of your diagram, the Likud belongs in the 75 seats, of course. So for them, the Arab parties are beyond the pale.

31:47 For the liberal center-left, center-right, at this moment, the Haredim and the radical right are beyond the pale. So you have 45 seats that don't fit into the mainstream. What Netanyahu did to Israel, maybe the worst thing he did politically, was tear the 75-seat mainstream apart. He set that mainstream against each other.

32:18 And the reason this is such a crime against Israeli society is because when you think about the forces that are tearing Israel apart, that don't fit in to the framework of a Zionist democratic Israel, you have on the one hand, the Haredim, on the other hand, the Arab community, and now the far right added to the mix.

32:43 What will hold the hope for Israel is strengthening the 75-seat mainstream. And when you look back at the history of Israeli politics, we have had working national unity governments beginning in 1967, and then in the 1980s we had unity governments that actually saved the Israeli economy from hyperinflation.

33:09 And so there is a history of marshaling the 75-seat mainstream, give or take, for the sake of stabilizing Israeli society. That's where we need to go in order to start healing from this rupture. But Netanyahu cannot do it. He can't be part of it because he is the guy who tore the mainstream apart. No, he won't.

33:36 The only people who will sit with him are the radical groups. That's right. And they will sit with him not because they like him, because nobody else is gonna give Smotrich the Finance Ministry and the Deputy Ministry of Defense, and in no other universe would a fascist be appointed the Minister of Homeland Security.

33:55 So they have no pathway into the mainstream really, and this mainstream includes right, center right, center left. It includes religious, secular, Ashkenazi, Sephardi. There's a whole spectrum, and so there's something interesting happening- Now, it's, Danielle, it's interesting also, just as a side point, the distinctions you were making between Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are relevant to this model because you hear voices within the opposition camp, within Eisenkot's party, saying, "We will sit with Smotrich, but not Ben-Gvir."

34:30 Ben-Gvir, yes. In other words, the fact that they were okay, they're really radical, but they're still religious Zionists, we can still somehow finesse the, the- This, this distinction. That's correct... divides. Yeah. As long as the Palestinian issue, Palestinian conflict is not on the table. Right. That's right. With Ben-Gvir you're talking about the soul of Israel with... You know, let's, let's say there's that distinction.

34:51 But as we're wrapping up, is there anything else? You know, you, you mentioned this beforehand. You know, this is the last lap of the campaign, and it's been a boring campaign. It's like [laughs] it doesn't, um... Let's just some meta thoughts, last meta thoughts about this campaign, Yossi, if you have. This is the most boring existential moment that I've experienced in Israel. [laughs] I love that. One second.

35:14 Let's-- Could you say that again? Boring existential moment. Yes. Yes. This is a... You've coined it. [laughs] Because it's really stunning. You don't see banners on the streets. In previous elections, you know, the streets were on fire, usually metaphorically, but sometimes literally. And now the streets are very calm.

35:37 In my neighborhood, there's one banner for Eisenkot, there's one banner for Netanyahu. That's all I've seen. And so we're going into this fateful election without this intensity that has always characterized Israeli elections. And the question I have for you, Danielle, my parting question to you is, who does this boredom, this quiet serve? Is this good for the opposition? Is it good for the government?

36:06 It's, you know, ev- 'Cause everybody, we're so biased, so I can't tell you for sure, but I think Eisenkot intentionally made this a boring campaign. 'Cause he's a boring guy He's a pretty boring guy. [laughs] He's a sweet oz. He's not a sweet oz. Shh You know, I, I don't want to be quoted on it, but he is a pretty boring guy [laughs] You know, he's, he's, he's not the most char- He's a fine human being Solid, smart But the minute he took over from Bennett, Bennett was a more fiery personality, and the Bennett-Netanyahu competition would have been different. For Eisenkot, it's a campaign about the country healing itself, coming back to trust, coming back to certain core values.

36:49 While Netanyahu would like now it to get more exciting, but he really didn't want to because October 7th, he needed October 7th to pass, so everything had to be quiet. And now having some military conversation about future wars helps him. But I think Eisenkot built this campaign to fit him. And what's so interesting is that this campaign has reminded me very much of a United States or a presidential campaign because it's not the parties and the figures.

37:19 Usually the parties are made up of numerous figures who are significant, and they're part of the campaign, and their voices are out there. Here it's Eisenkot. It's just not Bibi, it's Eisen-- It's the heads of the campaign Right And so this is a campaign not even about Eisenkot's ideology. It's about the space he wants to bring Israel back to in the midst of all of our craziness. Trust me, but it's gonna be a country that's gonna go back and say to Israeli society, "The periphery is not in charge anymore.

37:51 We're in charge." You know, there's a term in Hebrew, there's a balabayit. There's someone responsible who's back. And I think the quiet, it has been boring, but I want to thank you for that. This has been the most existentially boring moment. Maybe that's what's driving me crazy sometimes. It's like you don't know what to do Right It-- People are more or less stable with the options of the two blocs.

38:12 There's almost no shifts taking place between the blocs. Wherever there's excitement is where one member of the bloc within a bloc is trying to get seats from another party competing in the same bloc. So it has been maybe, you know, we're also-- You have to remember we're tired. This has been four exhausting years Right.

38:31 Yeah, I think that's right Maybe what we're saying is we're gonna say this at the ballot right now. Last words, Yossi, and then we'll conclude Yeah. You know, uh, uh, this conversation has been very good for me because there's such a disparity between the inner turmoil that so many of us are feeling and the deceptive outer calm.

38:52 And, uh, this conversation was a kind of a bridge for me between the two. So I'm-- I, I appreciate this, Daniel Thank you. An existentially boring moment, that phrase, it won't become viral 'cause it's boring, but [laughs] but it's important. Yossi, thank you so much. And Israel now is gonna go to vote, and I love-- I'm just gonna end.

39:12 My favorite day in Israel is when Israelis vote Mm-hmm Because our elections are fair, and I love going to the ballot, and people who disagree with each other are passing each other. There's no violence in the ballots just about. And, uh, you know, at the end of the day, with all of our hardships, we are a democracy and a functioning democracy in an existentially very often unbelievably challenging reality. And I love our elections.

39:42 I'm gonna be flying home- Daniel... on Sunday That sounds- Yes... like a Walt Whitman poem on Israel. If Walt Whitman were Israeli, that's what he would have written Okay, I'll take it. So [laughs] Yossi, my friend, I'll see you. We're gonna tape a podcast, uh, right after the elections at 10:30 at night.

40:01 It's gonna be live, but for most of you, it'll drop Wednesday morning, a half hour after the results, where you and I, Yossi, we're gonna be together and talk about what's going on, what do we see. So Yossi, have a great week, and, uh, see you in the ballot. Love you. Mwah. Safe travels, Daniel Thank you. Bye-bye Love you too. Take care Imagine a gap year that's not a detour, but a launchpad.

40:24 At the Shalom Hartman Institute's Havruta Gap Year program, students spend the year after high school in the heart of Jerusalem, immersed in serious Beit Midrash learning with Hartman's world-class faculty, including leaders such as Daniel Hartman, Tal Becker, and Ilana Steinhaim. Blending community, leadership, and rigorous learning, Havruta pushes students from North America and Israel to grapple with the most significant questions facing the Jewish people and a Jewish and democratic Israel.

40:51 If you're looking for a gap year where you're challenged, grounded, and ready for campus and beyond, learn more and apply at shalomhartman.org/gapyear. Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute. Join the Hartman Institute as we ordain our first cohort of Rabbinate North America.

41:09 On December 14th in New York City, come celebrate 13 new rabbis who will lead their communities to their highest aspirations and enrich the public conversation about Jewish life. In-person and live stream details are at the link in the show notes. [instrumental music] For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and Arc Media.

41:29 It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter, and Aviva Katmanor, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our music was composed by Yuval Samur. Past episodes can be found at arcmedia.org, where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show notes.

41:55 Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website at shalomhartman.org. [instrumental music]